What? Metal Rusts in Treated Wood
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Fasteners used with pressure-treated wood need to be ACQ compatible. If not, your screws and nails will fail faster than the wood.
Irony of life. Wood treatment extends the life of exterior wood but shortens the life of unprotected metal. The metal of screws, bolts, hangers and nails will rust. That is why you need to use hot dip galvanized nails, coated screws and zinc-plated hangers.
Types of wood treatment of exterior wood
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SS nails is the only one I haven't seen eating up over time
Its the best.
I live on the gulf coast and if it ain't stainless your wasting your time and clients $
You are correct. But expensive. Look up galvanic corrosion.
You sir are correct. I did structural engineering professionally for 20 years. I’ve won many bets on this.
Not all stainless are created equal
Gotta love galvanic corrosion. Using the hardware designed for the application helps.
Good idea.
....best practice is stainless fasteners, you didn't mention that.
Silicon bronze fasteners also won't get eaten by ACQ. But I've never seen that for wood screws. Only ever in foundry applications 3/8" bolts and up.
Your right there. Stainless steel is the most rust-resistant deck fastener.
Stainless is also way more expensive lol
@@anonymous4319 no way, the superior product costs more?
And in boats, props are sometimes silicone bronze
@@colinstace1758 I did not know that.
Fun fact those are lag bolts not screws, fun fact #2 they too come in hot dipped galvanized like the nail you suggest for the hanger.
2 great facts.
Deck screws are NOT PROTECTED from corrosion as the coating fails when screwed into PT. The only screw is a stainless steel screw.
Stainless steel will resit rust better than all other screws.
What kind of wood is that? Looks solid!
Thank you...
You're welcome!
I had to explain to my 70 year old father when we built a fence and gate that buying drywall screws to save a couple bucks over the galvanized screws is not worth it.
Glad you where there to advise him. Not worth cheaping out on.
What about galvanized carriage bolts?
Galvanized shouldn't react with the copper.
Carriage bolts are not in our building code anymore...they want hex bolts...so they can be tightened with a wrench.
@@johnbannister501 Interesting, I did not know that. Is that local code or national?
@@decksbye3269 I'm in Ontario Canada...The local township will not allow carriage bolts because they say the bolts can "spin" in the wood so you can't get the connection tight. Having saying that...I really like the look of the carriage bolt....and personally haven't had any issues with them spinning....
I use plastic screws. They never rust. Sure they break and everything falls to the ground. So what
LOL
😂😂
Well by golly gosh
LOL
Copper Assole.
Okay.
Copper Alkaline Quarantine
Thats the word we are looking for. Thanks.
This guy needs to learn how to pronounce words. The word is composite not composite night
LOL. I do struggle with pronouncing words correctly and using the correct word.
@@decksbye3269 Google translate helps a lot with that. You should definitely check it out if you haven't trouble pronouncing words. I had to do it for a few words I used to miss pronounce
You are correct! The chemicals in pressure treated lumber are highly corrosive to steel. Double dipped galvanized hardware is used in commercial construction. Galvanic corrosion is when two dis-similar metals come into contact with each other. One material will sacrifice it's self and corrode.
Thanks for the info.
The same process occurs with faucets and metal water-hose attachments. They are designed to fail.
As far as hardware corrosion goes, CCA wasn’t as corrosive as ASQ pressure treatments. However CCA uses arsenic, which is generally not recommended if you like breathing.
Yep, an oxidation reaction, aka electrolysis, will occur whenever two dissimilar metals are in electrical contact. They basically just become a battery, resulting in the degradation of one of the metals
@@merlinious01 Well said.
@@merlinious01Not the most accurate description but close enough
Copper-izzle is a copper alloy used for treatment of wood and was famously discovered and named by Snoop-Dogg! After its discovery, he was quoted as saying "Always use yo' galvani-zzle hard-wizzle."
LOL
What’s snoops favorite tool? A chisel
@@josecanales2978 Why does Snoop Dogg always carry an umbrella? Fo' drizzle.
" The More You Know... 🌠 "
I spray painted my coated deck screws with cold galvanizing compound. 24 years so far and all is still tight and strong.
Thats amazing. Going the extra mile has paid off for you.
Stephen Keefer what is this cold galvanizing spray? Can you give us a brand name, and where you buy it? Thanks.
@@tgeliotI buy it at the local welding supply store . I've seen it at West marine , ace hardware , probably walmart
Pressure treated requires appropriate hardware. Lags aren't commonly used anymore on my jobs. Only up into the bottom of stringers to allow someone to level the stairs over time. Ledgerloks are what I use for lags now.
Ledgerloks are great. I personally use alot of GRK's insted of lags.
I use stainless when the budget allows, otherwise its ceramic coated screws, and timberteks/ledgerlocks; I refuse the work otherwise.
@@mrmohawkmansir That's a good standard.
@@mrmohawkmansir I'm still skeptical on the "ceramic" coat stuff. I have removed some and seen the metal where the ceramic coat was scraped right off the threads. Even a small nick in the coating will let the corrosion get underneath the coating and rust the bolt out, same reason they don't use epoxy coated rebar anymore.
Thank you. I was wondering why 4" nails in my deck were rusted so bad that they were thin enough that I could break them by hand.
Your welcome.
My mailbox is 30 yards from the Gulf of Mexico. I replaced it (what previous owner put together) and all the zinc fasteners were basically gone, but the ceramic coated deck screws looked like new.
Interesting, I wonder if that has somethng to do with the salt.
They issued a warning over 25 years ago with explicit instructions that only hot dipped galvanized fasteners could be used with the new pressure treated wood this was about the time they supposedly took the arsenic out of the treatment all you have to do is read the tag I am a 60 year old carpenter and have seen deck lumber go from redwood to cedar to the first pressure treated with copper chromate arsenic that went from 10 year guarantee to 40 year in a few short years in the late eighties and early nineties when they changed the chemical our lumber salesman came to the jobsite and showed us a board in the back of his truck that he had put one of every single fastener sold at the time and they had all disintegrated in a couple of months except for the hot dipped galvanized nails this was a few years before coated screws
Thats a great story, thanks for sharing.
I made a nickel solution and then I coated all my small 1/4 inch drill bits nickel not one has rusted yet it only took me like 3 hours and 25 minutes to figure out
Sounds fun.
Man..
Ever had a customer come ask you why you use hangers?
I have had one ask me to remove the cost of them and labor to install them
Had to remove my sign from their yard
Our shirts
My branding on the product
And … I was in the house and got my card back off the fridge
Can’t pull the boys off the job for the day
Can’t pay them for nothing
But.. I am not putting my name on a job “GC’d” by someone who is not ME
thanks man
I wish more Homeowners saw this
LOL that is a rough but funny. You more than know why you build things the way you do, and then someone who doesn't tries to tell you how to do your job without understanding the implications.
As Tom Reber would say, educate but don't let homeowners tell you how to do your job. But I admit I find that so hard to do, especially like you say, you have the crew working already.
Wow. It's amazing what those Chinese engineers can come up with.
What?
Great point. Have you seen what pt does to aluminum flashing?
I have heard stories but not come across it yet.
Use hot dip bolts! Not electroplated! Nails and bolts are steel. Electo zinc sucks. Use the ugly hot dip cheap ones. No rust.
Spoken from someone with expereince.
I was on a job, as a Union Glazier in an old factory that was being turned in lofts. A home building company won the bid vs. a commercial one. The building inspector failed their floor joists they replaced because it had the wrong fasteners. An expensive lesson learned. This was back when they changed the treated lumber.
Good story and a good reminder you need to know current code. Thanks for sharing.
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I'm currently working a deck rebuild. 34 2 x10s with rot.
Pulled 235 sticks of 16' trex. We've got about 2/3rds of a 5 gallon bucket of used deck screws.
No rust on any of them.
Nice. You said Trex. Did they use stainless steel screws?
@@decksbye3269 coated deck screws.
If I wanted to build or manufacture a coffin as my mother asked me today of my sister keep telling her you need to think about your burials site is it legal for me to build a coffin of White cedar and how would I do it in a manner that it fits the purpose
Sorry I build decks never tried my hand at a coffin.
Interesting question… look it up online. I’m sure there’s got to be an answer to it *somewhere* . I’d honestly love to know what you find out & decide to do in the end. Good luck on ur search/project.
PNW: avoid lags. bolted is better. But they all thin in ACQ. Stainless, tape and zinc flashing to keep water from staying in the joints
Good advise.
I'll just use untreated cumaru or Ipe for the entire deck. Sure, I'll need to take out a second mortgage, but that deck will last a minimum of 50 years with zero chemicals.
Drywall screws for load bearing sections. I make my own brackets from sheet metal rolls meant for window trim in siding
Goiing all out.
Different metals react to each other building basics.
Yep
When we build decks and piers in the marshes of South Louisina you will get some life out of your fasteners but eventually mother nature will eat it up!
@@carpenterguys.9417 That sounds like one harsh environment to build a deck that won't rot or rust. Good luck there.
Watch your flashing too folks
Yes, really good point.
Is it possible to cooper plate all your srews abd nails ... buy them bulk and throw them on a buket and overnight plate them...?!...
ACQ or CBA. Alkali Copper Quarternary, or Copper Azole. Those are the types of pressure treatment available these days. The old stuff was Arsenate. But was discontinued due to the fact that arsenic is a carcinogen.
And yeah, both of the new types are super corrosive to nails. especially galvanized. The best fasteners to use with current pressure treated is ceramic coated, or stainless steel.
Who can afford these extras? The owner wants the best price bid, that why I go with cheapest price screws, hangers, green treated boards, etc… After all, I want the works! I use to tell the owner, I can do it cheap or do it with good materials that will last. They alway choose the cheap bottom line price unless it a luxury home, then it the other way around. They want to know what is the latest materials, technology. Many owners do not care that much about the price but the looks!😊 I only do bids on luxury homes now that I am established. These lower price homes are not worth my time now!
This is why I am trying to get good at mortise joinery and wooden pegs over fasteners.
Taking it to a whole new level.
Taking it to a whole new level.
Wow! I’ve never even thought of this. I’m an electrical apprentice. Have no interest in being a carpenter ect, but these videos are addictive 😂
Thanks
This is a building code requirement in 99% of the country now
Yep, but still isn't always done.
or epoxy coated ledger screws
A good option.
Project Farm did a review of deck screws. Some are much more corrosion resistant than others.
I will need to check out Project Farm. Thanks for sharing.
Alright everyone over to Project Farm.
th-cam.com/video/eikOUFoIZ-Y/w-d-xo.html
Yeah Project Farm is the real deal. You can count on his reviews being thorough and honest
The prescriptive residential wood deck construction guide has all the notes and details you would need.
Stainless steel too right? If you have the budget for that expensive stuff.
Stop using square head deck screws. They strip rather easy.
I'm on gulf coast they build decks/Pier over salt water with Gavin zed stuff it rust. If near salt water use stainless steel.
I don't build decks by salt water but I agree with you 100%. I beleive there is even marine grade stainless steel. But you probalby have way more expereince with that then I do.
@@decksbye3269 I think there is marine grade too I see docks the 16 penny rusted away to a 4 penny finish nail the head looks good but it's gone down lower. But super easy to sink post here it's all mud bottom
@@user-oc6qs1po3j I haven't used them (Building decks on the prairies), but I imagine there are. Saltwater is nasty, and I know composite patio furniture often is made with marine-grade fasteners to help them last longer.
Coated deck screws still rust
Copper, Chrome, and Arsenic, I think is the pressure treatment chemicals.
And all outdoor fasteners, hinges, etc, should be Galvanised or Stainless.
Your right about the fasteners.
Doesn't help that when you buy pressure treated wood it's always wet. Takes weeks to dry and if you don't stack it with weight on it ,it will warp Luke crazy. This is why we build tight with treated wood because it will dry and shrink some
Especailly true with treated decking.
@@decksbye3269 yup you can buy non treated in a pretty dry nature but treated is always wet when new . I used to show up 530am to a tractor trailer load of frozen together 3x12 18ft lumber pile. Break out the crowbar and big hammer . Fun fun.
I know it’s expensive and out of the question for many but have you not heard of Stainless Steel?
I’ve seen many a coated deck screw rust worse than anything I have ever seen. About 17 years back, they got the mix wrong at a major manufacturer and there was tons that made its way down to NO after Katrina. It at through the coatings in about a year.
I largely use GRK for structure screws but stainless steel will rust less.
The coated screws nine times out of 10 or no different than normal drywall screws.
I'll agree with somebody else on here when they said stainless steel but to keep it affordable go zinc coated.
Thanks 🙈🙉🙊
Great solutions.
He is wrong. Micronized Copper Azole is different in Micro PRO Sienna!! Proves you have to gobto the source not one deck guy.
INteresting I will need to research that.
Thank You for not saying " Salt Treat Lumber". It's pressure-treated Lumber.
Your welcome. To be entirely honest I didn't know slated treated lumber was a thing.
Deck screws are not designed or intended to be weight-bearing; they are supposed to hold deck boards down, not to build the structure of a deck. They are quite brittle compared to nails, and should never be used in sheer-force conditions.
Agreed, thanks.
Yrs back potential customer did not want to pay me to build a 2nd story p.t. lumber stairset. I went back when it was built, horrible workmanship & sheetrock screws were used.
Oh, I winched when I read that. Thats terrible.
Coated deck screws rust as well. Hot dipped galvanized nails oxidize and because rusty and weak. But should last longer than our lifetime. Let the next generation deal with it.
For wood, lifetime is a win.
Electroplating takes a 12 volt battery 321 positive negative vinegar 3% copper wire annoys bummer what they tell you
Over my head
Just installed my first fence for a customer. Thank you for giving me a heart attack. The screws are fine 🤦♂️
Congrats on your first proffensional fence.
Copper is more noble than zinc, so the zinc will corrode. You can’t stop electrolysis with dissimilar metals unless you use rubber to separate them. That not going to happen.
Good explanation.
Zinc coating will be stripped off by the copper faster than any other coating, then it's business as usual...
Not my expereince.
Deck mates if you don't have enough money, bro those will double your project costs
Galvanized do cost considerably more.
Can I do titanium if I took three batteries of equal size against One hanging in a solution of vinegar to cause positive negative reaction of voltage is this so simple that mankind has lost way of understanding
?
With that new treatment I don’t think you have to worry about the screws cause the wood will be completely rotted in five years.
LOL, I am ittle more optimistic but I agree the old stuff was better.
@@decksbye3269 my neighbor built two decks on his house five years ago. And this year he had to replace a lot of the boards because they rotted out. Mean while my two decks built over 30 years ago are still in great condition. These new so called safe chemicals along with fast growth tree wood is complete junk. But hey what do I know I’m just an average Joe. 😆
@@TechnMoto I said the same thing when I started doing doors and windows.. the old wooden doors and windows were better in everyway.. the new windows and doors have design flaws to where they all leak.. the solution is channeling it back outside..As someone who started as a leak chaser it's literally face plam stupid..products rated to last 20 years but need maintenance after the first Two and are completely destroyed by year 7 with no maintenance..They sell it as longer lasting with less maintenance lmfao..
Call very very informative fantastic much respect‼️
Thanks
Zinc and copper bad idea. In fact those two metals were used in conventional batteries. Will cause electrical corrosion.
Now I am confussed. Zinc treated hangers for copper treated wood. Something does not compute.
Nope, both regular zinc and galvanized will rust. Stainless steel fasteners are your best bet
Great point!
You could buy Thor Matteson’s book I recommend the one with color pictures
Good idea.
Or if you’re rich and have tons of money to just blow, you could always buy stainless hardware
True that.
What would you do with some white Port orford cedar from the south of the South Northwest or the north Southwest for Southern Oregon is like where the only tree grows
Well cedar decks are nice.
True story
Yep.
Still don’t understand why one is fully corroded and the other is only partially corroded.
Well now you have video idea. I am not sure either.
Even coded Dexter is after 2 years you take them out they look like they came out of the Bering Sea
Rust is a thing.
First video I watch talking about bthis important issue,
Interesting side fact.
I backed out a few screws in the deck stairs I built 10 years prior. They were the Home Depot coated torx screws. Many of them snapped cause they rusted out. Next time I’m gonna use the zinc or galvanized screws.
Zinc or glavanized may be the better answer.
Nails or screws for load bearing balcony?
Ok so... your showing a new generation something that's well know by the rest of us over 30?
Nothing new under the sun. Just the things we have forgotten.
Every single one of us has had to learn literally absolutely everything we now know, at some point or another in our lives. Lots of ppl may not know this YET. Thx to this vid, hopefully a few more ppl know a little something more than they did before watching it. That’s the entire purpose behind vids like this to begin with! Nobody is simply born already knowing everything. We learn. We grow. If we fall behind, we learn more & catch right back up. This isn’t for ppl who already know & practice this on the daily; it’s for every one of those ppl who DON’T.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to teach important things to those who don’t already know. The fact that SOME ppl already know this, doesn’t suddenly make this video a personal attack on their egos. For anyone who is already aware & quite/knowledgeable on the topic, pls just take it for what it is… & in this case, what it is, simply doesn’t apply to you. Period.
Not everyone is educated on galvanic corrosion. This is a start though!
Thanks
All these building codes and there aren’t any hardware codes? 🤔
There are hardware codes but they aren't always followed. Thats why we must educate.
Very professional but am wondering if you got a screw loose..
LOL
Why do galvanized nails not rust but galvanized bolts do?
Hot dip galvanized works for both as long as they are treated.
Both look rusted to me. That's why u need pressure treated approved fasteners
YOu got it.
Galvanised mild steel screws will rust like that nothing to do with the wood treatment, 316 Stainless is what you should use.
Stainless steel is superior against corrosion.
@@decksbye3269 indeed we use Caustic and hydroxide at work everything is Stainless, Everything else including plastic rot.
20 years in carpentry and I never knew this.
Always learning.
Or if money is no object... SS screws and bolts!
The best material.
O just use double-dipped galvanized lag bolts.
That will work.
Electroplate make your solutions all the metals three to one positive negative vinegar what's the color watch turquoise done dead and ready to get going with the next phase
Done was deal
Now where were we?
i thought one was zinc
Interesting.. I never knew that.. I didn't build many decks in my 40+ years as a carpenter.. but I have here at my place.. Now I know better thanks!
Thanks for your years of service. We are all still learning.
@@decksbye3269 And teaching as you go... outstanding fellas.. Teaching is a very caring thing.. no matter what haters say..
@@tinkmarshino Love it.
Galvanized
Orrrr japenees joinery
Galvanized everything is the way to go.
In exterior work, yes.
That rusted bolt still has more shear and tensile strength that any one of the new fasteners, which is the entire purpose of the fasteners.
Even compared to GRK structural screws?
@@decksbye3269 See tor yourself. Deck screws do not have much shear strength because the shank diameters are tiny. That is why tico nails are used for joist hangers. They have a hardened shank meant to bear the single-shear load of the sheet steel hanger under the nail head.
Those are called lag bolts.
Thanks
2 dissimilar metals cause galvanic reaction
okay
They rust because they are not made of stainless steel. The tannine in the wood made them rust!
Interesting, I had heard it was the treatment. But it could be the tannine.
@@decksbye3269 No, not the treatment. In German we call the tannine "Gerbsäure". Can't translate the first word, but "Säure" is "acid". Now it is maybe clearer. And, the wood has some moist in it. That is why you have to use stainless nails and screws.
Galvanized or stainless only. No zinc
Best way to go.
Those lags are treated with zinc?!
Soem are but I don't thik these where.
Show me the spec where you can use what you say. Stainless only. So you are wrong.
Just sharing what I have seen. No sources to quote.
You can take my answers to the bank, as they say, better spent staying out of court. I could prob teach a 3 day class on PT wood. Really PPT bc it pressure. And preservative. That’s why you can’t field treat an untreated board into a PT. You might decide to look into galvanic series reactions, chemicals used to treat wood, chemical retention. All the PT you’ll find is ground contact. Lower grades aren’t stocked anywhere, I think they made lower specs to please environmental concerns. I once wanted to find lower retention rate would in order to use the zinc fasters but I really couldn’t justify it given galvanic serious reactions sacrificial anode is always the steel the cathode remains constant and only the steel is sacrificed. This is just what comes to mind immediately at 4:15 in the morning… oh 316 stainless is the good stuff.
Thanks for the information
Your welcome.
Or the oldest trick, acid free vaseline
Never heard of that one before.
Stainless is what they use in New England
The best material for not corroding.