I find it odd that Rust is getting fast tracked and it's developed by the same type of people who are running the shit show at the Linux Foundation. When you start seeing the amorphous they/them colored flag wavers supporting other amorphous they/them colored flag wavers in a way that is previously unheard of you start to wonder what is the reason behind it. It really seems like they can't make their own stable, community supported kernel using Rust so they are going to slowly take over Linux, replacing it bit by bit with Rust garbage, then take full credit for creating something new. Lets be clear here, Linux and open source has been under attack for a while by these lunatics because they see people freely contributing to it and they think "Wow! What a communist/socialist utopia!" while forgetting that in communism and socialism (both are the same ideology, the only difference being is how they screw you) the contributing you do is at a gun barrel. Open source, at this point in time, is screwed if it keeps on this course. It will be put 6 feet underground like everything else these lunatics have touched. Movies sells are down because of them, game innovation is at nearly dead zero, comic books are better used in bird cages, etc etc.
Indeed. People asking me for "sources" are only doing so to protect their own interests from scrutiny that they can't withstand. They're trying the same tactic of pretending it's not happening with many other negative social trends like the lockdowns four years ago.
@@JodyBruchongood to see that someone out there sees the connection between wearing masks … and programmers trusting in magic compilers to remove bugs. Instant sub !
@@JodyBruchon thanks mate - no sleep for another week whilst I binge watch :) Will put this on in the background whilst I’m working on C projects .. I promise ;)
A college degree in cis or cs is just a receipt showing you paid to play. Everyone else recognized the value of self motivation and the internet information potential. I'm yet to meet a grad that impresses. Get off your ars and build something because you genuinely find interest and learn as you go. Now that has marketable value.
Greetings from North Carolina also. I think what you mean is that Rust in the context of Linux development is a trojan horse, the video title could be more specific.
@@CrucialFlowResearch I did try to hedge what I said with "the language itself isn't the problem." It's stupid to throw out something that could have value just because a lot of bad people also use that thing.
This happened at work when they allowed Kotlin to be used alongside Java. Kotlin is an alternate Java syntax since it is based on running in a JVM. Now EVERY programmer must master both Java and the Kotlin dialect and everybody is worse off. But the Kotlin people are smiling from ear-to-ear from some reason.
Relax, they think they can const_cast permissions from govenment, and AddRef'ing when going out for a snack. Then they Release themselves once back in the home.
@@kirinplays3822 "didn't demand anything, we ASKED to allow rust kernel modules into the kernel and Linus accepted" I'll believe it when I see it. There's a reason for the Rust femboy memes, and if what the OP says in this video is true (which I haven't seen evidence to believe it's not, since Rust is an incomprehensible mess of a lang designed largely by simpletons, imo), then you can't blame me for agreeing OP. It doesn't matter if you asked Linus or not. If you really understood software, you'd understand that bad actors are everywhere and Linus cannot be everywhere at once, even if he did approve it. And if he did approve it, how do you know he did so to let the little trojan horse get detected and become banned for, say, idk.... snooping on the data of political opponents, then doxxing them? We already had npms mining crypto and just today had a hanging pointer cause an exploit in both Firefox and Torr today, and those are maintained by armies of devs. Any reasonable person should be concerned about Rust and it's majority's political views, especially when those views are radical (marxism, BLM, Antifa) and mentally unstable (the trans movement, PallestiNazism). If any of those are true and you personally support those as a Rust dev, then you are a subversive.
Have you tried Rust? I used to hate it, but once I learned how to use it properly I started to love it. I think what you’re seeing are the idealists who think we can rewrite everything in their new favorite language. The activist type. What you’re not seeing are us Rust devs who just want to write it with our own projects. The silent majority who just appreciates good programming.
The fact is the universities are brainwashing the young students, in from cradle to grave people are being brainwashed enmass. So it stands to reason it is and will have an effect in everything eventually, not just Rust. We're at war with an international clique.
Thats not true, the Rust maintainers are extremely aggressive liberal activists who believe all technology is political and should be. They are wrong and foul little people.
Mostly just an "I agree" post. I also think it's overselling activists too much and that there is a useful language to be found. But avoiding the activists sounds like a good idea.
@@JodyBruchonI watched the whole thing. I’m trying to say that your enemy isn’t Rust devs. Your enemy is a very tiny, but extraordinarily loud, minority. We silent majority like to code in Rust because it’s a good language and just ignore the ideologues. The reality is, the more sane people who use Rust, the more sane it will be. If you reject it because you don’t like some of the people, you are dooming it to become even more extreme.
13:45 Any Rust dev that’s told you it’s easier than C is crazy. C is easy. C is the default, and it’s a great starting place for new programmers and in college. Rust, on the other hand, was one of the most challenging languages I’ve ever learned. Too many weeks of bashing my head against the wall until just the borrow checker finally clicked.
C is pretty great. The bad side is you have to pay attention and people suck at that so mem leaks, segfaults and overflows because derp. Easy to avoid if you're not a smooth brain but I'm afraid that a good thinker is in short supply these days.
Rust is harder than C as languge per se. Memory and thread (and genereally) *safe* C is many times harder and demands years(or decades) of burns and cuts of experience.
I always wondered why people were over glorifying rust and tried to push it into the kernel, Linux has been there for some time, and I always told to myself, there is not enough testing for Rust, so if they just implement it blindly this might be a disaster waiting to happen once things break down or when they find vulnerabilities, people already assumed it's the safest language, but look at what happen to Java a couple years ago with log4j vulnerability, and if it was the best programing language out there, then how come Apple is still using swift, I never associated it with woke people, but I thing they are over hyping it, there is this old saying in tech, if it works, don't change it, C has been proven to be one of the most fundamental languages that have come out, that's why Microsoft created their own version of C
Great points! I started worrying about your objections as I've started learning Rust and their community governance. That whole kerfufle over the Rust brand was a warning siren. I have a very based developer friend who is doing some paradigm shifting software architecture with Rust but neither of us are involved with the community and you provide good reasons to stay that way. I hadn't thought of the community culture part of integrating Rust into the Linux kernal but you're obviously right. Anything with a "Code of Conduct" on something "free" is a problem. But my question is more whether this Hegelian/Marxist bent is inherent in all "Open Source" software?
@@philosophyze Open source software can be thought of as a gift. It's given selflessly in the hopes that it'll be useful to others. The problem is that injecting Marxism into an open source project changes the goal from "make great software that serves the users well" to "make software serve the revolution."
I’ve been wondering what’s up with the Rust folks. I’ve heard a lot of stories about Rust in Linux. I’ve also heard a lot of stories about Rust fanaticism. This adds up.
@@RustIsWinning What u (or I) like isn't the issue. It's the attutude that matters. In India, where average vegetarians will easily put the most strict Vegans to shame, most Vegeterians won't annoy others with any bogus activism. I eat meat, my fully vegeterian friend eats his vegeterian meal in the next table. And we both enjoy a good dosa together afterwards. No issue. If most Rust-ics were like that, no one will complain.
I don't understand how people think C is some very scary low level language and that there is a necessity to move to the newer ones else it will become impossible to write software, even secure software. We have seen how all other language features, from heavy OOP use, functional programming, garbage collection or whatever new paradigms Rust and other have, they didn't lead to software that doesn't crash and doesn't have bugs or security issues. In fact, a lot of these extra features are trying to hide the low level implementation in ways that you don't know anymore what happens and bugs creeping in because people don't want to think what's going on behind the hood while writing code. It's like the magic formula that will solve all your problems while nobody wants to be aware what's really going on. C is very easy. The only time I felt like moving from a language to another made a difference was from assembly. And I've written enough assembly. But I am always like 3-5x times slower to read/write assembly that I prefer to do everything at least in C. And it's high level enough if you name things nicely and have understand of the algorithms, that I just don't see it. I don't see how C++ or Python or Rust will improve my productivity. Why are people scared that there is a brain drain and they won't find people coding in C? Let alone you can have safety even in assembly if you wanted. Remember the story of Margaret Hamilton and adding safety-mechanism in the code for Apolo-11? Or think of some old software in the 80-90s that was brilliant and was written in C or assembly. And people say "but the software was not complex" and I think it was. There was software with a lot of options and menus and functionality. There was software that was ported in various platforms with more bizarre hardware than today. People were perfectly capable of writing good and safe software in C let alone assembly. But you don't have to. If you prefer C++, Python, Javascript, Rust it's fine with me. But don't tell me it's not safe to use C. They are pushing the "right way/language" to code. I agree there are woke activists. And if Rust has it, I will not prefer it. C is fine. But whatever anyone wishes, good software can be written and maintain in any language and I don't buy all the myths that it's impossible or harder to do things in C than any modern language.
Even Rust lets you do unsafe things. The code below gives a segfault, which you can do in C. fn main() { unsafe {println!("{}", *(std::ptr::null() as *const u8));}}
There is a kernel developer that live streams his work. He had done it for years and then in one live stream he mentioned that he didn't like that rust is used in the kernel for some of the reasons you mentioned (technical reasons) and a few days later he got swatted while live streaming. They are activists as you say.
@@a1337turtle Yep. Chilled my spine seeing this, as one who was investigated by Romanian secret police in 1989. And I thought we got rid of all these in 1989.
I can see how there would be an intersection of those who prefer compiler enforced safety checks and those who prefer law enforced "woke" ideals, but I doubt the 2 are conflated so thoroughly as you suggest. The point that I would award you is that if it can't be done in stable rust, it's not ready for everyone's kernel. Is the kernel still compilable without rust? If so, then distros are free to opt out. I'm too antisocial to understand any possible politics involved, I'm only seeing this from a technical point of view, and I see the addition of rust to the kernel as adding a new talent pool that allowed the fairly rapid development of M1 graphics drivers for Asahi, and that's quite a proof of concept. There are a lot of ppl who think religious and otherwise crazy things about what rust is or is not. It's not magic. Nothing is magic. It's a tool, and some ppl work better with that tool. The person who happened to be motivated to solve the problem of graphics on M1 happened to be good with rust and beat any potential C version "to market" if anyone was even trying. So, from a politically blind point of view, rust gives us a new talent pool tackling different problems and support for devices that C devs weren't working on. The beliefs of the fleshy bits in front of the monitors about the rightness or wrongness of their personal plumbing or how the economy should function have little to nothing to do with how the kernel connects the software to the hardware. I believe the kids are using the phrase "It's not that deep" for situations like this. Zig? I'm starting to learn Zig and I like it but it's still teething. Your build.zig file will break if you upgrade to the next release. I believe they're still working on async. I could see Zig in the kernel in 10 years if ever, but not anytime soon. Gotta 1.0 first, right?
Some people made the same mistake interpreting what I said so don't feel bad. The point is that Rust is being used as a tool to take power from the existing programmers by entrenching a skills gap. Rust is the crowbar, not the cult leader. The problem is the people, not the language.
You've hit the nail on the head it is the gramscian ideal of "March Through The Institutions". If the language is becomes very difficult it will be filled with people who are ideologically motivated towards very particularly ideals as opposed to being focused on open source software.
@@NickTheCodeMechanic Yes, many people on the left are obsessed with complexity since they believe that verbosity and or multiple moving pieces makes them more "intelligent" for being able to deal with said complexity.
C isn't hard. I learned data structures in C in college learned algorithms in C#. First programming language was Java back in highschool. Now I write Lua drivers in C for a custom Linux image. Rust is cool more like a reimagining of C++. Zig is the reimagining of C.Though C++ was the original reimagining of C it added probably to many ways to do the same thing. Rust should be used as the primary language in its own projects. If the project is successful then it should drive the demand for developers to learn the tooling and programming languages involved. Programming languages shouldn't be switched in a project but n a wim. I think it's not just DEI that they want to push they want a rewrite of the Linux kernel to Rust so they can have a large training set to feed an LLM so that DARPA can get TRACTOR to work. But maybe I am missing some context you got earlier.
Hmmm, I never considered the political influence in programming languages. Maybe that's why PHP gets so much bad press. It really empowers the user. I see PHP as a libertarian language.
That's the thing with all of the highly persistent, aged languages: while the novelty chasers argue over the genders of sharding, C and PHP coders are busy doing actual work and ignoring the others.
@@furrball It was never meant to be capitalist, but only free. Good thing is that when a distro gets corrupted you just jump to another one and that it can be forked like it happened in the open-source game engine area to Godot.
Man I don't feel comfortable with you not holding the wheel and looking at the camera instead of the road. Yeah Rust sucks but please don't get in a car accident while doing so.
I haven't tracked it but I probably have 800K-1M miles of driving experience. I think I'll be okay. I have several videos detailing the process of filming while driving.
I am 100% in agreement with this video. Well said and 100% truth! THANK YOU! BTW I am a programmer. The language is just syntax to me. I've never had a problem learning a new language. I'm the old school, "give me the manual", autodidact programmer and I've been at it since 1984 and professionally since 1989.
All excellent points Jody! I never really wanted to program in Rust even though it's getting all of the attention these days. I honestly believe C is the best language for all programs. With a combination of some other older languages and Lua which isn't very old but pairs well with C.
To be fair, C is very old and there are many improvements that could be made for modern systems. C doesn't have native support for wide vector registers, for example. Multi-threading is also kind of obnoxious. I don't have an issue with the Rust language or Rust programmers. I have an issue with Rust zealots.
@@JodyBruchon True, but I still like C because of it's age. Even though C might not have some things other langauges have, there coukd be work around. There are no solutions, only trade offs. (most of the time) Personally I want to stay as fucking far away from Javascript as I possibly can, along with Python. They're like candy. Over simplifications while you don't learn any useful skills. I feel like other langauges like Lua and HTML for websites can bridge the gap of C. With some other things I haven't learnt as yet. Still learning, but not just any and everything. Python and Javascript will be very tempting and I have to resist them as much as I can. I feel like Rust might also fit into this category some what.
Good to know, I have been against these people in gaming and now linux. This will not work because there are many linux distributions and somene or a group can create new linux kernal without rust.
As a Gentoo user when updating, Rust added over 2 hours to my compile time until Gentoo went to a binary version. In Rust, although "exa" is, from what I've read, better than "ls", typing 3 letters instead of 2 caused me not to use it, although I could have created an alias. "ls" works just fine for my needs.
The "on paper" mention, reminds me of one of my old friends who once said that communism sometimes sounds good on paper, but when put into practice it's a huge disaster.
My only complaint with my friend's argument is no it does not look good on paper, coming from a libertarian's perspective. It goes against everything I stand for.
In practice communism and fascism aren't much different. Which is why the Charlie Chaplin impersonator and Stalin were allies at the beginning of WW2, and people have such a hard time figuring out which of the two systems China has for example.
I think it's insane to assume a new language that is not tested well can and will surpass the one and only that pretty much built all of our core software.... Its blasphemy to assume that decades of experience will just be defeated by a great idealistic project especially on a huge scale Always remember - ordo ab chao - order from chaos is the doctrine were facing
I am frequently using on windows ripgrep and fd utilities which are programmed in rust but I never developed a taste for rust as a programming language, for me it feels too complicated for solving simple problems, in most cases safety rust provides is very expensive in economic terms because development in rust is very hard.
I look at this and it doesn’t take long to figure out why old shows from the 80’s and 90’s had more color, personality, passion, courage, etc etc. Too much of today’s stuff is void of passion, rather it’s run by the same types of people who are running Rust. I look at old tech videos from decades ago and you can see the passion and enthusiasm behind the tech. I look at id Software back in the day and it’s a bunch of guys who wanted fun, and edgy stuff. Today Ubisoft is the modern gaming industry, a poster boy, and everything wrong with modern gaming.
@@valknut9648 I have been on this video platform since 2006, so you need not mention it. I have been tracking this decline for years now. How else can you explain comic books being better 20 years ago? How was it we were getting Call of Duty: Black Ops 1, Dead Space 1, God of War III and Crysis 1 over a decade ago, all of which were pushing the limits of what gaming tech could allow? Today I see nothing but utter garbage coming out of the western AAA gaming industry and it's all stuff we've already experienced before. And don't get me started on music, movies and TV here in the West.
You raised a couple of reasonable points. It is weird that they are eager to rewrite everything in Rust, up to a ridiculous point, while it is unnecessary and completely useless from a technical standpoint. It is as if they were rewriting history. Another point is Zig and why they reject it. IMHO, Rust is not as safe as they claim, especially when you have to use the "unsafe" keyword everywhere in order to "compile". Compilation is another issue altogether. I guess Zig promisses much more, while being useable, unlike Rust, which doesn't deliver and it completely useless.
Rust is the only language I know of with cult members that go out and try to forcefully transition every project into it. I'm also fed up with rusties chiming in on every single new exploit that gets released for a C/C++ program, even if it has nothing to do with memory safety, that the exploit wouldn't have happened had they written the application in Rust.
@@XeonProductions They're just like the scumbags that take the Hurricane Helene catastrophe in western NC to go "DO YOU BELIEVE IN CLIMATE CHANGE NOW BIGOTS?!"
It is almost universally true that the new exploit wouldn't have happened if the project were started in Rust, because the project wouldn't have shipped. *No code* is the safest code.
@@NickTheCodeMechanic Well, you need to be running the latest, unstable nightly, off that one guys personal git mirror. Oh and it needs to be a Tuesday, and make sure you have the goat ready. It's easy, the problem is obviously with you.
I missed the political bullshit here. Why they haven't redacted this I don't know. Politics only overlap programming when politicians try to control technology. I did a short stint with Rust to try it out (very long time c++ programmer) and was disappointed about how complex such a new language is. It probably didn't help that right away I ran into the Arc + lifetimes trap. While I appreciate golang's simplicity I'm not happy with golang's inability to scale, which brought me to Zig. Zig isn't at 1.0 yet: they pulled their async implementation, the string handling feels incomplete at the moment.
Good old Shell script, Java, HTML/JavaScript/CSS, C/C++, Perl, Haskell and even *some* Python, Swift or C#/.NET are still relatively fine for all the things you'd need. I'm sure there are a few I've missed but there's literally no reason to join in on the mental illns with the new wave of programming "languages".
Why can't they just extend C to have an extra .t file extension along with the header .h files? Then developers can put the type signatures in there (if they want) so better type safety can be introduced gradually without breaking the existing C syntax?
While I can agree that Rust community is heavily influenced by wokies, much of the early community and development occurred in the Bay Area after all; a lot of the evangelism for it is also on the technical ideals it pursued as a project. Once people like things on the internet, they tend to become stupid with it. Linux evangelists bashing Microsoft is alternative trope I would throw out, not without merit but can be taken too far. Ultimately, if there's a culture you want to preserve, then it's up to individuals (or group) to recognize that and fight against / prevent invasion/intrusion.
This also goes into the communist idea that everything old must go. Just because it's old. Doesn't matter if it's something we rely on, that has done a great job or not. It's old, so it must be replaced by OUR version.
What? Last time I checked communists did not get rid of Academy of Sciences, despite it being about four times older than communism, when communists came to power.
@@uis246 Oh come on, don't just bring up some random old thing nobody was talking about, as an example. It's a weak argument. It's like saying world hunger doesn't exist because you have a sandwich.
As a leftist weirdo I don't want to involve any politics with any software projects. If making this open source projects is the only good thing we can agree on then why destroy it by involving ideology? How can any sane person think that dividing the already small population of people willing to develop for free over unrelated politics is a good idea is beyond me.
Look on what's happening on almost all Linux distros. Mint made a macro on their forum to replace Lunduke with some or something. Where the "community" is the obnoxious, insane, easily offended and scheming to remove the old maintainers guys. Just like after any communist revolution. The "purge", to quote openSUSE, another example of United Republic of Software Soviets.
I don’t really follow social media or keep up with "rust news," so I want to ask about 4:25, you state that "the majority of people who push rust are in fact 'wokies,' and that's the truth." Could you provide more context or explain how you reached that conclusion? Because many times people give out these extremely heated opinions that rest on extrapolated negative first-time impressions rather than any factual information. I've been fortunate to engage with rust primarily "as a language," and I find it to be innovative with a pragmatic and thoughtful approach to language design. That said, I don’t believe rust is a "universal solution". For instance, I think low-level programming, especially kernel development, may still be better suited to C. Maintaining a mixed C + rust ecosystem is cumbersome, and unsafe rust can often times get more "dangerous" than C. That being said, if I had to choose between rust and c++, I’d almost always choose rust-not because rust is perfect, but because c++ is just such a pile of dogsнit, I wouldn't want to waste any of my time dealing with it.
blog.rust-lang.org/2020/06/04/Rust-1.44.0.html _"The Rust Core Team believes that tech is and always will be political, and we encourage everyone take the time today to learn about racial inequality and support the Black Lives Matter movement."_
@@JodyBruchon Thanks, now I understand where you are coming from. I can agree, this is indeed a political statement. My personal opinion is that languages should not be political, yet there are many that are (this includes not only rust but other languages like python) partially because of their development model (rust/python development is community driven. In contrast c/c++ development is conducted by standardizing politically neutral committee (this is not entirely true because committee members often times represent corporations)). Having that said I still think you are extrapolating in the video, the post you shared was published by the rust core team and is particularly referring to to the blm movement which is also mainly specific to the US (I am from Eastern Europe and here blm is not a huge topic of discussion), rust developers are not just the rust core team and rust developers are not just from the US, they are not just leftists, feminist and so on (in the video you lumped together a lot of buzzwords).
@@JodyBruchon THAT is the reason why we can not have nice things. I really like Rust the language, but why WHY has everything to be political. Nobody should use or choose a programming language, because of politics !!!
I use rust as a replacement for C++ (not C) but for low level projects like kernel and embedded it’s just not ready yet. I am gonna continue to use C++ or C for those I despise the community (the woke part anyway) but as a tool in great for everything else.
The fact that linux exist in a world doomed by corporate corruption is a miracle by itself. I'm an old engineer and I was there following with passion every single step of the hacker movement back in the 90's. But I dont think it will last... they have an army of idl oats with them now.
Reminds me of the time Brianna Wu, notorious GamerGate antagonist, owned the MRAs with C pseudocode, except it was like this: if (gamer = true) bad(); else if (gamer = false) good();
@@JodyBruchon I'm generally pro inclusivity and whatnot but over the last few years I learned to never include in to your projects (or any kind of ventures) anyone who comes bearing pronouns, under no circumstances, no matter how good they might be at what they do, because once you allow one or two pronouns, those start multiplying rapidly, and before you know your entire thing start drowning in politics, drama and toxicity, sucking all life out of environment, and often it cannot be repaired. And to never join anything which already has any signs of pronoun infestation, it's a terrible omen.
I haven't seen any stable Linux OS totally written in Rust, I've seen one called Redox OS, but it's far from being stable. Rust is just way too complicated and overhyped imo.
Isnt redox a complete rewritten from scratch of a kernel? I dont think its supose to be considered as a linux, its more like the "New Kernel". Something for the future? And i dont think its viable to rewritten the entire kernel in Rust, we probabily will slowly stop using C and replace it with Rust, but there will be always that part that still will be in C, A complete rewritten of the Linux Kernel is something really hard to do and actually not necessary would only bring more problems and take time from developing features that would make linux even better and more popular agains NT and Mac.
I'm not a programmer. All I know is that Rust is supposedly safer than C because it's memory safe. I don't know what what means exactly. I know the fastest code is coded in C BECAUSE you can mess with memory directly. Anyways, that's all I know as a layperson. It sounds like the blue haired mafia have embraced Rust as their way to get into these established projects to inject their ideology. If Rust really is better, then like cream it should rise to the top. This is how DEI dies. By actually putting out a better product.
@@Wkaelx To learn the history and gain experience. People just use something that works instead of understanding why it works. Even if Fortan doesn't work as a good programming langauge it would make me appreciate languages like C more.
I don't think this theory holds under scrutiny, because I can't see how Rust would help a hostile takeover of the kernel, or another project. Look at how the Rust in Linux project is going: it's causing massive amounts of friction and heated arguments for years, and there's been a churn of Rust developers and maintainers quitting because they're sick of dealing with it all. Removing Rust from the picture would massively simplify a hostile takeover attempt. No need to go all the effort of introducing a whole new language. Just get a bunch of people to quietly start working on the kernel, working their way up, until they collectively accumulate enough power that they control the project. This isn't far-fetched: Torvalds has recently mentioned how some people who've only been working on the kernel for a few years are now in quite high level positions. Rust is entirely unnecessary for doing this - in fact, I'd argue it's hindering the ability of the developers using it to work their way up. Also, I'm curious about the claim that woke people want to tear down the kernel and "remake it in their image." What would a woke version of the kernel even look like? Perhaps banning people with the "wrong" political attitudes, like we've seen from NixOS, Godot, OpenSuse, etc.? But the Rust in Linux people are not even close to having enough power to try and pull something like that. So, for now, I think this is just fear-mongering about a potential threat that could exist in the future.
"Rust is safer than C! We want in and we bring safety! Don't you want all of the buffer overflow null pointer error failure problem bugs to magically go away? Well, let us in!" If you can't see how this would be a useful tool to get in the door for a hostile takeover then I don't know how to help you.
I see C as having a low skill floor and high skill ceiling. C is very simple but that means a lot of the difficulty comes at the runtime semantics of a program. I do like that languages like Rust and Zig at least try to move more of the runtime pain to the compiler's semantic analysis rather than runtime. The politics of the loud Rust user is definitely annoying. I'm definitely a bit more conservative than liberal so I find the politics to be offputting. At the same time what parts of the ecosystem you use will result in a vastly different experience. Anything related to game engines and development I would entirely write off even associating with because politics is so engrained. Embedded Rust seems far more grounded but I suspect Gramsci will come for them as well. Linux in this video is presented as a bulwark against the march of progressive politics. I feel Rust isn't the biggest threat to Linux but rather userspace is. Wayland has both ideological capture and is a mess to implement. You can at least argue Rust has a technical merit, Wayland I'd argue has none because implementations have to manage libwayland's poor library apis and the fact that to display a window on rhe server involves 10kloc of code at minimum. Wlroots doesn't solve Wayland's issues either. It's api has to at least conform to Wayland's shape. Anyways good video here, the discussion of politics in Rust does echo a lot of my thoughts here. Even though I do like Rust, I feel that the cult elements need to be silenced.
I think userspace was screwed the moment systemd became the default in Debian. Something with so many severe technical issues that so many people objected to still becoming the most important program on millions of systems by default was the biggest visible crack in the edifice of Linux.
I was very optimistic about Rust until I tried cross compiling and was like .. huh this is not really any better than C++ or C, it sucks. Go and Zig are so far the only languages in which cross compilation is not a hassle and literally *just work*
Ok, if a technology is primarily used by people of some particular type, belief system etc, the two do effectively become associated, but this is no evidence of intent. Maybe not 100% wrong but this is a poorly thought out rant. Dno why YT recommended the video, since I don't like Rust for quite different reasons.
@@JodyBruchon It's very rare that somebody asks for proof in such a manner is saying it in good faith. It's a form of gaslighting and I wouldn't bother humoring them too much. Anyone that has followed rust communities or even linux related news has seen these things.
Demanding proof of a social phenomenon is always disingenuous. You want peer-reviewed scientific sources for stuff I see in TH-cam comments, forums, and subreddits? HAHAHAHAHA
20 years from now. *This code is wooooke!* *This shoe is wooooke!* *That bird that just flew by is woooooke!* "Yes, yes Mr. Bruchon... lets get you to bed..."
Opening with how there will be quality issues with this video due to driving through the rain and downtalking rust leaves a great opening to a follow up video where you get access to an old rusted out vehicle (as if it was a consequence of rain-driving) for the next video where you praise rust. Having not studied rust but run into its use on my system, I've had some technical and political issues with it already. If it isn't ready for a task, don't force it into the task until that can be changed. My old programming goals have been to write more efficient code and get more control over the machine which has left me with an interest in C as a main language and assembly to better understand the machine and its software interactions.
If the Rust cultists are communist, then maybe I should go back to it. Rust is boring and not really more secure when it matters, for example when you are using anything that interfaces with a C ffi, which is well everything or when you want to do something to run as fast a C++ you need to use 'unsafe'. If you want a modern language that is both fun and performant just use Zig or Odin, if you need to use jvm for some reason use Kotlin or Scala(maybe). And please if you want a language that replaces Javascript at least try Haxe, I know nobody uses it but hobbist game devs, but is my favorite language and I don't want it to die.
Yeah, no, I wouldn't want Rust anywhere near anything I work on. It brings a rather nasty infection with it. No thanks. Besides, I don't wanna get swatted by armed police for having an opinion.
I taught myself C when I was a teenager. Anyone who says it's hard should find a different career, because they don't belong in software development. A DDG search for "did google make the rust language?" feeds me a full page of results with the same article on different sites, claiming that rust is fantastic, and "77% of developers are comfortable with rust". No how-tos, no why-it's-greats, just a lot of assertions that it's great. Google adopted it, so that tells me it's bad all in itself.
More than that, if you go looking for articles critical of rust, you can't find them. I ceased any investigation of Rust when one of the largest proponents of Rust here on YT had an obvious strawman video crafted to hit the top of the "problems with rust" type searches. If _that_ is the kind of proponent of Rust, I'll look elsewhere.
@@yellingintothewind That’s because search engines no longer give you good search results anymore. It’s all AI garbage or corporate backed websites giving you generic information. If anyone knows an obscure search that gives result, I’d like to know it.
@@KratostheThird I've been trying brave's search. The results are marginally better most of the time than google/microsoft, but their crawler still can't filter out AI nonsense. I'm afraid the situation will get worse before it improves.
The worst part about this, honest to god, is that I know several people who are college age and just starting with Linux who aren't ideologues but still impossible on this stuff. It is such a pain in the ass to make them think about things logically when they shut down the moment you ask them to elaborate without an appeal to novelty. The one of them I know is also the kind of person who hates all the political nonsense but will not listen when anyone warns him about all the red flags popping up then 6 months later is so surprised when we were right. This guy deletes his whole computer to test the new shiny product the moment it drops and has yet to catch on it all sucked. He did it with GNOME, he did it with Wayland, He did it with NixOS and now with Rust. I wish the whole Linux community who have the common sense to keep this crap out luck, cause the next generation is too caught up in their own ADHD Drug Addled little minds to make their minds up.
@@shebangbinbash1776 Man, I'm in uni rn, they don't even teach you. They just ramp up prices and make sure only the bad professors remain so that you have to retake their courses over and over and pay them shitloads of money that you don't have.
@@shebangbinbash1776 They were already doing this in California back in the 90’s and the 2000’s. One of my friends went to Berkeley and over time he learned that some of the professors there weren’t teaching young people to critically think, but how to think. This is also a big reason why younger generations (including Millennials) don’t seem to have as much of a grasp of certain things as older generations did. Decades ago I knew some old people born in the 1910s (they were late 70s and 80s in age) whose minds were as sharp as a tack. None of them received any formal education, they went to highschool and then started family life while working basic, but hard demanding jobs. They were smart and well informed. None of them ever stepped foot on college campuses.
Actually, C is so powerful that it is seen as the language of hackers, and the CEOs of giant companies see it as a security threat. In fact, they are afraid of the C language, which is why they are trying to promote the Rust language as a safe alternative. However, they don't know that an even better and more powerful language has emerged, named D, and the performance of the D language is unparalleled. In fact, this language is built on the skeleton of C and is their worst nightmare.
i wont comment on the political side, but... the language was not proven.. "unstable, unprepared, not ready for prime time" i thik the same could be said about C when it was a new language... it take times to fix issues, make it stable, and make sure its ready for production, every project need an testing branch where new ideas can be tested and refined before they enter the main project (or get rejected), if we used the fact that something is unproven as an excuse to not even try, then even C wouldnt exist.
I find it odd that Rust is getting fast tracked and it's developed by the same type of people who are running the shit show at the Linux Foundation. When you start seeing the amorphous they/them colored flag wavers supporting other amorphous they/them colored flag wavers in a way that is previously unheard of you start to wonder what is the reason behind it. It really seems like they can't make their own stable, community supported kernel using Rust so they are going to slowly take over Linux, replacing it bit by bit with Rust garbage, then take full credit for creating something new.
Lets be clear here, Linux and open source has been under attack for a while by these lunatics because they see people freely contributing to it and they think "Wow! What a communist/socialist utopia!" while forgetting that in communism and socialism (both are the same ideology, the only difference being is how they screw you) the contributing you do is at a gun barrel. Open source, at this point in time, is screwed if it keeps on this course. It will be put 6 feet underground like everything else these lunatics have touched. Movies sells are down because of them, game innovation is at nearly dead zero, comic books are better used in bird cages, etc etc.
Indeed. People asking me for "sources" are only doing so to protect their own interests from scrutiny that they can't withstand. They're trying the same tactic of pretending it's not happening with many other negative social trends like the lockdowns four years ago.
@@JodyBruchongood to see that someone out there sees the connection between wearing masks … and programmers trusting in magic compilers to remove bugs. Instant sub !
@@steveoc64 I think I have a playlist for you 😏 Political/Discussion Videos by Jody Bruchon: th-cam.com/play/PL7RxkOabi7Gy4jDdDGoQblByqb8m5Ma1K.html
@@JodyBruchon thanks mate - no sleep for another week whilst I binge watch :)
Will put this on in the background whilst I’m working on C projects .. I promise ;)
@@steveoc64 Please enjoy! What I really want to do with this channel is entertain.
This is the conclusion I have come to also.
I just love it when people make a programming language their personal identity said no one ever
C is the easiest language I've learned so far.
One becomes a lunatic just by learning rust syntax.
The most tedious (aka difficult) part of kernel programming is not the language, by far. And it's not for everyone, even those with a college degree.
A college degree in cis or cs is just a receipt showing you paid to play. Everyone else recognized the value of self motivation and the internet information potential. I'm yet to meet a grad that impresses. Get off your ars and build something because you genuinely find interest and learn as you go. Now that has marketable value.
@@shebangbinbash1776 Same plurality of negative experience with graduates here.
@@tikabass Yes, and I’m one of those people who learned that this isn’t for everyone.
That’s why I pursued other job fields.
Greetings from North Carolina also. I think what you mean is that Rust in the context of Linux development is a trojan horse, the video title could be more specific.
Linux is not the only thing that Rust and aposematic hair coincide with. Firefox is also full of both.
@@JodyBruchon i agree with your overall sentiment, but it seems Rust actually is useful for embedded chips and things like that
@@CrucialFlowResearch I did try to hedge what I said with "the language itself isn't the problem." It's stupid to throw out something that could have value just because a lot of bad people also use that thing.
This happened at work when they allowed Kotlin to be used alongside Java. Kotlin is an alternate Java syntax since it is based on running in a JVM. Now EVERY programmer must master both Java and the Kotlin dialect and everybody is worse off. But the Kotlin people are smiling from ear-to-ear from some reason.
Those who would give up essential liberty for a bit of memory safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Relax, they think they can const_cast permissions from govenment, and AddRef'ing when going out for a snack. Then they Release themselves once back in the home.
If xyz is a better language than C, then please create your own kernel and an OS around it instead of trying to takeover the existing eco system.
We ask 'please'. They demand compliance.
We are not the same.
@@NickTheCodeMechanicwe didn't demand anything, we ASKED to allow rust kernel modules into the kernel and Linus accepted
@@kirinplays3822 "didn't demand anything, we ASKED to allow rust kernel modules into the kernel and Linus accepted"
I'll believe it when I see it. There's a reason for the Rust femboy memes, and if what the OP says in this video is true (which I haven't seen evidence to believe it's not, since Rust is an incomprehensible mess of a lang designed largely by simpletons, imo), then you can't blame me for agreeing OP.
It doesn't matter if you asked Linus or not. If you really understood software, you'd understand that bad actors are everywhere and Linus cannot be everywhere at once, even if he did approve it.
And if he did approve it, how do you know he did so to let the little trojan horse get detected and become banned for, say, idk.... snooping on the data of political opponents, then doxxing them?
We already had npms mining crypto and just today had a hanging pointer cause an exploit in both Firefox and Torr today, and those are maintained by armies of devs.
Any reasonable person should be concerned about Rust and it's majority's political views, especially when those views are radical (marxism, BLM, Antifa) and mentally unstable (the trans movement, PallestiNazism).
If any of those are true and you personally support those as a Rust dev, then you are a subversive.
@@kirinplays3822 yes, but where is the issue, if someone likes he can write his filesystem or whatever in rust.
Here I thought it was just a programming language with a cumbersome memory model which complicates syntax and makes certain algorithms very obnoxious.
You know what happens when they say it will be "safer"... 😂
Coded language. Kind of like suspects with "literally no physical description whatsoever". Everyone knows what it means.
Have you tried Rust? I used to hate it, but once I learned how to use it properly I started to love it.
I think what you’re seeing are the idealists who think we can rewrite everything in their new favorite language. The activist type. What you’re not seeing are us Rust devs who just want to write it with our own projects. The silent majority who just appreciates good programming.
The fact is the universities are brainwashing the young students, in from cradle to grave people are being brainwashed enmass. So it stands to reason it is and will have an effect in everything eventually, not just Rust.
We're at war with an international clique.
Did you watch the video?
Thats not true, the Rust maintainers are extremely aggressive liberal activists who believe all technology is political and should be. They are wrong and foul little people.
Mostly just an "I agree" post. I also think it's overselling activists too much and that there is a useful language to be found. But avoiding the activists sounds like a good idea.
@@JodyBruchonI watched the whole thing. I’m trying to say that your enemy isn’t Rust devs. Your enemy is a very tiny, but extraordinarily loud, minority.
We silent majority like to code in Rust because it’s a good language and just ignore the ideologues.
The reality is, the more sane people who use Rust, the more sane it will be. If you reject it because you don’t like some of the people, you are dooming it to become even more extreme.
why would you use a programming language or engine by some insane people that can BAN you from technical service and help?
agreed, Rust has been trying to "help" a perfectly fine C for a while, reeking of woke
no wonder why it's called "rust".
@@lottery248 Isn't it ironic?
As in Fe2O3 ironic?
13:45 Any Rust dev that’s told you it’s easier than C is crazy. C is easy. C is the default, and it’s a great starting place for new programmers and in college. Rust, on the other hand, was one of the most challenging languages I’ve ever learned. Too many weeks of bashing my head against the wall until just the borrow checker finally clicked.
C is pretty great. The bad side is you have to pay attention and people suck at that so mem leaks, segfaults and overflows because derp. Easy to avoid if you're not a smooth brain but I'm afraid that a good thinker is in short supply these days.
Rust is harder than C as languge per se. Memory and thread (and genereally) *safe* C is many times harder and demands years(or decades) of burns and cuts of experience.
I always wondered why people were over glorifying rust and tried to push it into the kernel, Linux has been there for some time, and I always told to myself, there is not enough testing for Rust, so if they just implement it blindly this might be a disaster waiting to happen once things break down or when they find vulnerabilities, people already assumed it's the safest language, but look at what happen to Java a couple years ago with log4j vulnerability, and if it was the best programing language out there, then how come Apple is still using swift, I never associated it with woke people, but I thing they are over hyping it, there is this old saying in tech, if it works, don't change it, C has been proven to be one of the most fundamental languages that have come out, that's why Microsoft created their own version of C
Great points! I started worrying about your objections as I've started learning Rust and their community governance. That whole kerfufle over the Rust brand was a warning siren.
I have a very based developer friend who is doing some paradigm shifting software architecture with Rust but neither of us are involved with the community and you provide good reasons to stay that way.
I hadn't thought of the community culture part of integrating Rust into the Linux kernal but you're obviously right. Anything with a "Code of Conduct" on something "free" is a problem. But my question is more whether this Hegelian/Marxist bent is inherent in all "Open Source" software?
@@philosophyze Open source software can be thought of as a gift. It's given selflessly in the hopes that it'll be useful to others. The problem is that injecting Marxism into an open source project changes the goal from "make great software that serves the users well" to "make software serve the revolution."
I’ve been wondering what’s up with the Rust folks. I’ve heard a lot of stories about Rust in Linux. I’ve also heard a lot of stories about Rust fanaticism. This adds up.
So Rust is Veganism of programing lang! I always hated how Rust claims to reinvent the whole world.
Uhm but I like meat...
@@RustIsWinning What u (or I) like isn't the issue. It's the attutude that matters. In India, where average vegetarians will easily put the most strict Vegans to shame, most Vegeterians won't annoy others with any bogus activism. I eat meat, my fully vegeterian friend eats his vegeterian meal in the next table. And we both enjoy a good dosa together afterwards. No issue.
If most Rust-ics were like that, no one will complain.
I think you are right and this is also why some governments are suddenly pushing for language safety to attack c and c++.
In this case, Rust-in-kernel is downright a security risk for millions of users.
As a C programmer for 9 years now, I agree with you, don't like these people who talk too much
This is maybe a dumb whataboutism in my part, but...
Drew Devault is woke as frick and he at least in the past _was_ against Rust.
@@negirno Drew DeVault may be woke but he does make some really good points about bad tech.
I don't understand how people think C is some very scary low level language and that there is a necessity to move to the newer ones else it will become impossible to write software, even secure software. We have seen how all other language features, from heavy OOP use, functional programming, garbage collection or whatever new paradigms Rust and other have, they didn't lead to software that doesn't crash and doesn't have bugs or security issues. In fact, a lot of these extra features are trying to hide the low level implementation in ways that you don't know anymore what happens and bugs creeping in because people don't want to think what's going on behind the hood while writing code. It's like the magic formula that will solve all your problems while nobody wants to be aware what's really going on.
C is very easy. The only time I felt like moving from a language to another made a difference was from assembly. And I've written enough assembly. But I am always like 3-5x times slower to read/write assembly that I prefer to do everything at least in C. And it's high level enough if you name things nicely and have understand of the algorithms, that I just don't see it. I don't see how C++ or Python or Rust will improve my productivity. Why are people scared that there is a brain drain and they won't find people coding in C? Let alone you can have safety even in assembly if you wanted. Remember the story of Margaret Hamilton and adding safety-mechanism in the code for Apolo-11? Or think of some old software in the 80-90s that was brilliant and was written in C or assembly. And people say "but the software was not complex" and I think it was. There was software with a lot of options and menus and functionality. There was software that was ported in various platforms with more bizarre hardware than today. People were perfectly capable of writing good and safe software in C let alone assembly.
But you don't have to. If you prefer C++, Python, Javascript, Rust it's fine with me. But don't tell me it's not safe to use C. They are pushing the "right way/language" to code. I agree there are woke activists. And if Rust has it, I will not prefer it. C is fine. But whatever anyone wishes, good software can be written and maintain in any language and I don't buy all the myths that it's impossible or harder to do things in C than any modern language.
Even Rust lets you do unsafe things. The code below gives a segfault, which you can do in C.
fn main() { unsafe {println!("{}", *(std::ptr::null() as *const u8));}}
There is a kernel developer that live streams his work. He had done it for years and then in one live stream he mentioned that he didn't like that rust is used in the kernel for some of the reasons you mentioned (technical reasons) and a few days later he got swatted while live streaming. They are activists as you say.
rene, right?
@@a1337turtle Yep. Chilled my spine seeing this, as one who was investigated by Romanian secret police in 1989. And I thought we got rid of all these in 1989.
@@a1337turtle Is Rene a big activist?
@@NickTheCodeMechanic Rene Rebe is a kernel developer.
@@a1337turtle thanks.
rust is CENSORSHIP
RUST for Kamala, the Whitehouse said we need a memory safe lang, we support the admin, forgive student loan now?
Heil, comrade.
I can see how there would be an intersection of those who prefer compiler enforced safety checks and those who prefer law enforced "woke" ideals, but I doubt the 2 are conflated so thoroughly as you suggest. The point that I would award you is that if it can't be done in stable rust, it's not ready for everyone's kernel. Is the kernel still compilable without rust? If so, then distros are free to opt out.
I'm too antisocial to understand any possible politics involved, I'm only seeing this from a technical point of view, and I see the addition of rust to the kernel as adding a new talent pool that allowed the fairly rapid development of M1 graphics drivers for Asahi, and that's quite a proof of concept. There are a lot of ppl who think religious and otherwise crazy things about what rust is or is not. It's not magic. Nothing is magic. It's a tool, and some ppl work better with that tool. The person who happened to be motivated to solve the problem of graphics on M1 happened to be good with rust and beat any potential C version "to market" if anyone was even trying. So, from a politically blind point of view, rust gives us a new talent pool tackling different problems and support for devices that C devs weren't working on. The beliefs of the fleshy bits in front of the monitors about the rightness or wrongness of their personal plumbing or how the economy should function have little to nothing to do with how the kernel connects the software to the hardware. I believe the kids are using the phrase "It's not that deep" for situations like this.
Zig? I'm starting to learn Zig and I like it but it's still teething. Your build.zig file will break if you upgrade to the next release. I believe they're still working on async. I could see Zig in the kernel in 10 years if ever, but not anytime soon. Gotta 1.0 first, right?
Some people made the same mistake interpreting what I said so don't feel bad. The point is that Rust is being used as a tool to take power from the existing programmers by entrenching a skills gap. Rust is the crowbar, not the cult leader. The problem is the people, not the language.
@@JodyBruchon Got it. The ppl are always the problem. That's why I don't social.
You've hit the nail on the head it is the gramscian ideal of "March Through The Institutions". If the language is becomes very difficult it will be filled with people who are ideologically motivated towards very particularly ideals as opposed to being focused on open source software.
In other words, programming will be swamped with idiots who find (needless) complexity impressive...
@@NickTheCodeMechanic Yes, many people on the left are obsessed with complexity since they believe that verbosity and or multiple moving pieces makes them more "intelligent" for being able to deal with said complexity.
Rust Cargo will become a walled garden just like apple app store.
C isn't hard. I learned data structures in C in college learned algorithms in C#. First programming language was Java back in highschool. Now I write Lua drivers in C for a custom Linux image. Rust is cool more like a reimagining of C++. Zig is the reimagining of C.Though C++ was the original reimagining of C it added probably to many ways to do the same thing. Rust should be used as the primary language in its own projects. If the project is successful then it should drive the demand for developers to learn the tooling and programming languages involved. Programming languages shouldn't be switched in a project but n a wim. I think it's not just DEI that they want to push they want a rewrite of the Linux kernel to Rust so they can have a large training set to feed an LLM so that DARPA can get TRACTOR to work. But maybe I am missing some context you got earlier.
I never understood the appeal of rust now it makes sense
@@danzingcat5949 Novelty and the fact that it does solve a programming problem or two I've C are also driving factors.
Hmmm, I never considered the political influence in programming languages. Maybe that's why PHP gets so much bad press. It really empowers the user. I see PHP as a libertarian language.
That's the thing with all of the highly persistent, aged languages: while the novelty chasers argue over the genders of sharding, C and PHP coders are busy doing actual work and ignoring the others.
Do you have the link to that video about the problems with writing kernels using rust? I'd like to watch it.
th-cam.com/video/bD_dJ7OSUuA/w-d-xo.html
Such a shame when things get corrupted by woke ideologies.
they're destroying Linux, that capitalist stronghold named Linux!!
@@furrball It was never meant to be capitalist, but only free. Good thing is that when a distro gets corrupted you just jump to another one and that it can be forked like it happened in the open-source game engine area to Godot.
Man I don't feel comfortable with you not holding the wheel and looking at the camera instead of the road. Yeah Rust sucks but please don't get in a car accident while doing so.
I haven't tracked it but I probably have 800K-1M miles of driving experience. I think I'll be okay. I have several videos detailing the process of filming while driving.
Rust -> crab -> cancer !
NOO!! -->🦀
One funny thing about that is that communists love rust when rust is one of the few languages with private ownership of resources
@@notuxnobux 🤣🤣🤣
Well, they DO want to seize the means of production!
I am 100% in agreement with this video.
Well said and 100% truth!
THANK YOU!
BTW I am a programmer. The language is just syntax to me. I've never had a problem learning a new language. I'm the old school, "give me the manual", autodidact programmer and I've been at it since 1984 and professionally since 1989.
Remember, remember, the fifth of November
Finally some f***** common sense. Thank you for being my voice.
All excellent points Jody! I never really wanted to program in Rust even though it's getting all of the attention these days. I honestly believe C is the best language for all programs. With a combination of some other older languages and Lua which isn't very old but pairs well with C.
To be fair, C is very old and there are many improvements that could be made for modern systems. C doesn't have native support for wide vector registers, for example. Multi-threading is also kind of obnoxious. I don't have an issue with the Rust language or Rust programmers. I have an issue with Rust zealots.
@@JodyBruchon True, but I still like C because of it's age. Even though C might not have some things other langauges have, there coukd be work around. There are no solutions, only trade offs. (most of the time)
Personally I want to stay as fucking far away from Javascript as I possibly can, along with Python. They're like candy. Over simplifications while you don't learn any useful skills.
I feel like other langauges like Lua and HTML for websites can bridge the gap of C. With some other things I haven't learnt as yet. Still learning, but not just any and everything. Python and Javascript will be very tempting and I have to resist them as much as I can. I feel like Rust might also fit into this category some what.
Good to know, I have been against these people in gaming and now linux. This will not work because there are many linux distributions and somene or a group can create new linux kernal without rust.
People should just learn C. I doubt Rust programmers can learn it tho. It's not fancy enough.
I learned C, C++, Java, python, and C#. I write any new projects I start in Rust, because I happen to like it more, courses for horses.
As a Gentoo user when updating, Rust added over 2 hours to my compile time until Gentoo went to a binary version. In Rust, although "exa" is, from what I've read, better than "ls", typing 3 letters instead of 2 caused me not to use it, although I could have created an alias. "ls" works just fine for my needs.
Is that the reason they went binary though? I'm starting to have doubts. I mean it could be.
We found the smartest Gentoo user right here 🤣
I love Rust, but I don’t want to see it in the Linux kernel.
@@NewFoxesHD And there's nothing wrong with loving Rust.
The "on paper" mention, reminds me of one of my old friends who once said that communism sometimes sounds good on paper, but when put into practice it's a huge disaster.
My only complaint with my friend's argument is no it does not look good on paper, coming from a libertarian's perspective. It goes against everything I stand for.
In practice communism and fascism aren't much different. Which is why the Charlie Chaplin impersonator and Stalin were allies at the beginning of WW2, and people have such a hard time figuring out which of the two systems China has for example.
@@aramfingal5180 I agree with that. Heads of the same hydra.
@@Tall_Order Yes. I’m a bit of a libertarian myself and the Far Left agenda despises everything I stand for and represent.
I think it's insane to assume a new language that is not tested well can and will surpass the one and only that pretty much built all of our core software....
Its blasphemy to assume that decades of experience will just be defeated by a great idealistic project especially on a huge scale
Always remember - ordo ab chao - order from chaos is the doctrine were facing
I am frequently using on windows ripgrep and fd utilities which are programmed in rust but I never developed a taste for rust as a programming language, for me it feels too complicated for solving simple problems, in most cases safety rust provides is very expensive in economic terms because development in rust is very hard.
I remember White House recommends Rust. Something fishy going on.
EXACTLY - he failed to mention it. THIS is a big sign. When the hell did a "living" president EVER care about a programming language?
I remember. That is enough reason for me to avoid it like the plague.
it also recommends Object Pascal and Ada, but you're only focused on Rust, huh
@@swedishpsychopath8795 When cyber attacks started to be a real threat to infrastructure and military operations... remember the pipeline incident?
@stefanalecu9532 The topic is Rust. Object Pascal and Ada are irrelevant to this discussion unless you wish to elaborate?
I look at this and it doesn’t take long to figure out why old shows from the 80’s and 90’s had more color, personality, passion, courage, etc etc.
Too much of today’s stuff is void of passion, rather it’s run by the same types of people who are running Rust. I look at old tech videos from decades ago and you can see the passion and enthusiasm behind the tech.
I look at id Software back in the day and it’s a bunch of guys who wanted fun, and edgy stuff. Today Ubisoft is the modern gaming industry, a poster boy, and everything wrong with modern gaming.
The downfall of western society is entirely by design. Make no mistake of it.
@@valknut9648 I have been on this video platform since 2006, so you need not mention it. I have been tracking this decline for years now.
How else can you explain comic books being better 20 years ago? How was it we were getting Call of Duty: Black Ops 1, Dead Space 1, God of War III and Crysis 1 over a decade ago, all of which were pushing the limits of what gaming tech could allow?
Today I see nothing but utter garbage coming out of the western AAA gaming industry and it's all stuff we've already experienced before.
And don't get me started on music, movies and TV here in the West.
Dinosaur is mad that the world is changing 😂
@@RustIsWinning Your name checks out. Move along, soldier.
100% agreed!
You raised a couple of reasonable points. It is weird that they are eager to rewrite everything in Rust, up to a ridiculous point, while it is unnecessary and completely useless from a technical standpoint. It is as if they were rewriting history. Another point is Zig and why they reject it.
IMHO, Rust is not as safe as they claim, especially when you have to use the "unsafe" keyword everywhere in order to "compile". Compilation is another issue altogether. I guess Zig promisses much more, while being useable, unlike Rust, which doesn't deliver and it completely useless.
This dinosaur writing complete nonsense again BAHAHA 😂
You put into words what my guts where telling me about that "rust" stuff
Rust is the only language I know of with cult members that go out and try to forcefully transition every project into it. I'm also fed up with rusties chiming in on every single new exploit that gets released for a C/C++ program, even if it has nothing to do with memory safety, that the exploit wouldn't have happened had they written the application in Rust.
@@XeonProductions They're just like the scumbags that take the Hurricane Helene catastrophe in western NC to go "DO YOU BELIEVE IN CLIMATE CHANGE NOW BIGOTS?!"
It is almost universally true that the new exploit wouldn't have happened if the project were started in Rust, because the project wouldn't have shipped. *No code* is the safest code.
@@JodyBruchon climate... climate always changes.
Dude, I can't even get cargo to bloody install ANY program! Tried aura on Arch, for example and Rust shat itself...
@@NickTheCodeMechanic Well, you need to be running the latest, unstable nightly, off that one guys personal git mirror. Oh and it needs to be a Tuesday, and make sure you have the goat ready. It's easy, the problem is obviously with you.
Just discovered this channel. At only half of the video I can safely say that this is my new favorite channel on TH-cam. Awesome dude.
@@stuff26422 Thank you!
I missed the political bullshit here. Why they haven't redacted this I don't know. Politics only overlap programming when politicians try to control technology. I did a short stint with Rust to try it out (very long time c++ programmer) and was disappointed about how complex such a new language is. It probably didn't help that right away I ran into the Arc + lifetimes trap. While I appreciate golang's simplicity I'm not happy with golang's inability to scale, which brought me to Zig. Zig isn't at 1.0 yet: they pulled their async implementation, the string handling feels incomplete at the moment.
Good old Shell script, Java, HTML/JavaScript/CSS, C/C++, Perl, Haskell and even *some* Python, Swift or C#/.NET are still relatively fine for all the things you'd need. I'm sure there are a few I've missed but there's literally no reason to join in on the mental illns with the new wave of programming "languages".
So cpp is not complex? Hahaha nice try boomer! 🤣
i loved rust, but rust is no better than any languages, these woke idiots who are corrupting anything their touching should be stopped.
Clicked on this expecting to laugh at a clown, but got surprised with an entire circus instead. Great job!
Hey, I'm not that fat. My car is that small though.
Why can't they just extend C to have an extra .t file extension along with the header .h files? Then developers can put the type signatures in there (if they want) so better type safety can be introduced gradually without breaking the existing C syntax?
You can't have backwards-compatibility with safety
Tldr;
Forget rust.
Move Zig
Move Zig
Move Zig
Move Zig
You know what you doing
Take off every Zig
*FOR GREAT JUSTICE **_!!_*
It's funny that zig used by same lunatics. Rust-fanatics are trannies, zig-fanatics are gnu-schizoids. Same shit if you are looking from side.
While I can agree that Rust community is heavily influenced by wokies, much of the early community and development occurred in the Bay Area after all; a lot of the evangelism for it is also on the technical ideals it pursued as a project. Once people like things on the internet, they tend to become stupid with it. Linux evangelists bashing Microsoft is alternative trope I would throw out, not without merit but can be taken too far.
Ultimately, if there's a culture you want to preserve, then it's up to individuals (or group) to recognize that and fight against / prevent invasion/intrusion.
Watched till about ~6 minutes in and then stopped fyi, I have enough culture war content on twitter.
This also goes into the communist idea that everything old must go. Just because it's old. Doesn't matter if it's something we rely on, that has done a great job or not. It's old, so it must be replaced by OUR version.
What? Last time I checked communists did not get rid of Academy of Sciences, despite it being about four times older than communism, when communists came to power.
@@uis246 Oh come on, don't just bring up some random old thing nobody was talking about, as an example. It's a weak argument. It's like saying world hunger doesn't exist because you have a sandwich.
@@Tall_Order sure, USSR is random old thing nobody was talking about
@@uis246 You said academy of sciences, not ussr... Everyone here can read.
@@Tall_Order Russian Academy of Sciences. It even still exists.
Well said. 👌
Didn't expect you to go as far as to call them commies.
But hey, sounds accurate enough.
Medication Richard. Take them NOW.
Based. SystemD vibes...
As a leftist weirdo I don't want to involve any politics with any software projects. If making this open source projects is the only good thing we can agree on then why destroy it by involving ideology? How can any sane person think that dividing the already small population of people willing to develop for free over unrelated politics is a good idea is beyond me.
Look on what's happening on almost all Linux distros. Mint made a macro on their forum to replace Lunduke with some or something. Where the "community" is the obnoxious, insane, easily offended and scheming to remove the old maintainers guys. Just like after any communist revolution. The "purge", to quote openSUSE, another example of United Republic of Software Soviets.
I tried learning rust and stopped when they called rust programmers rusticans. Great video
Stay mad C-cel. Also retire already grandpapa --> ♿️
I don’t really follow social media or keep up with "rust news," so I want to ask about 4:25, you state that "the majority of people who push rust are in fact 'wokies,' and that's the truth." Could you provide more context or explain how you reached that conclusion? Because many times people give out these extremely heated opinions that rest on extrapolated negative first-time impressions rather than any factual information. I've been fortunate to engage with rust primarily "as a language," and I find it to be innovative with a pragmatic and thoughtful approach to language design. That said, I don’t believe rust is a "universal solution". For instance, I think low-level programming, especially kernel development, may still be better suited to C. Maintaining a mixed C + rust ecosystem is cumbersome, and unsafe rust can often times get more "dangerous" than C. That being said, if I had to choose between rust and c++, I’d almost always choose rust-not because rust is perfect, but because c++ is just such a pile of dogsнit, I wouldn't want to waste any of my time dealing with it.
blog.rust-lang.org/2020/06/04/Rust-1.44.0.html
_"The Rust Core Team believes that tech is and always will be political, and we encourage everyone take the time today to learn about racial inequality and support the Black Lives Matter movement."_
@@JodyBruchon Thanks, now I understand where you are coming from. I can agree, this is indeed a political statement. My personal opinion is that languages should not be political, yet there are many that are (this includes not only rust but other languages like python) partially because of their development model (rust/python development is community driven. In contrast c/c++ development is conducted by standardizing politically neutral committee (this is not entirely true because committee members often times represent corporations)). Having that said I still think you are extrapolating in the video, the post you shared was published by the rust core team and is particularly referring to to the blm movement which is also mainly specific to the US (I am from Eastern Europe and here blm is not a huge topic of discussion), rust developers are not just the rust core team and rust developers are not just from the US, they are not just leftists, feminist and so on (in the video you lumped together a lot of buzzwords).
@@JodyBruchon THAT is the reason why we can not have nice things. I really like Rust the language, but why WHY has everything to be political. Nobody should use or choose a programming language, because of politics !!!
The Rust Foundation was a big mistake.
@@whig01 ALL FOUNDATIONS are mistakes. th-cam.com/video/bb6SonDePzk/w-d-xo.html
I use rust as a replacement for C++ (not C) but for low level projects like kernel and embedded it’s just not ready yet. I am gonna continue to use C++ or C for those
I despise the community (the woke part anyway) but as a tool in great for everything else.
The fact that linux exist in a world doomed by corporate corruption is a miracle by itself.
I'm an old engineer and I was there following with passion every single step of the hacker movement back in the 90's. But I dont think it will last... they have an army of idl oats with them now.
More like fatherless blue haired feminist cucks raised by delusional narcissistic mothers.
I concur, C is not broken, some of the programmers are, in their heads, reinventing their identities, genders and languages
Reminds me of the time Brianna Wu, notorious GamerGate antagonist, owned the MRAs with C pseudocode, except it was like this:
if (gamer = true) bad(); else if (gamer = false) good();
Richard Stallman is the living incarnation of Jesus Christ.
@@JodyBruchon I'm generally pro inclusivity and whatnot but over the last few years I learned to never include in to your projects (or any kind of ventures) anyone who comes bearing pronouns, under no circumstances, no matter how good they might be at what they do, because once you allow one or two pronouns, those start multiplying rapidly, and before you know your entire thing start drowning in politics, drama and toxicity, sucking all life out of environment, and often it cannot be repaired.
And to never join anything which already has any signs of pronoun infestation, it's a terrible omen.
@@GnuReligion that guy's gonna need a pretty sturdy cross, probably with re-bar embedded in it.
I haven't seen any stable Linux OS totally written in Rust, I've seen one called Redox OS, but it's far from being stable. Rust is just way too complicated and overhyped imo.
Isnt redox a complete rewritten from scratch of a kernel? I dont think its supose to be considered as a linux, its more like the "New Kernel". Something for the future?
And i dont think its viable to rewritten the entire kernel in Rust, we probabily will slowly stop using C and replace it with Rust, but there will be always that part that still will be in C, A complete rewritten of the Linux Kernel is something really hard to do and actually not necessary would only bring more problems and take time from developing features that would make linux even better and more popular agains NT and Mac.
Yes. Gatekeeping is good.
I'm not a programmer. All I know is that Rust is supposedly safer than C because it's memory safe. I don't know what what means exactly. I know the fastest code is coded in C BECAUSE you can mess with memory directly. Anyways, that's all I know as a layperson. It sounds like the blue haired mafia have embraced Rust as their way to get into these established projects to inject their ideology. If Rust really is better, then like cream it should rise to the top. This is how DEI dies. By actually putting out a better product.
DEI is a deliberate scheme to get actual competent people away from a job, an organization, or whatever. It does not hire on merit and it never will.
my god this is comedy gold.
@@Legalmind2 Silver
Anime avatar... Get help.
Rust is a politically motivated OS for Linux, No trust here of Rust at all! And I do program in COBOL, Basic, Binary, Hexadecimal , C, C+ and C++ !
Lol. I'm learning, C, COBOL, Fortran, and Lua unironically.
@@agoogleuser2507 Why fortran?
@@Wkaelx To learn the history and gain experience. People just use something that works instead of understanding why it works. Even if Fortan doesn't work as a good programming langauge it would make me appreciate languages like C more.
I don't think this theory holds under scrutiny, because I can't see how Rust would help a hostile takeover of the kernel, or another project. Look at how the Rust in Linux project is going: it's causing massive amounts of friction and heated arguments for years, and there's been a churn of Rust developers and maintainers quitting because they're sick of dealing with it all.
Removing Rust from the picture would massively simplify a hostile takeover attempt. No need to go all the effort of introducing a whole new language. Just get a bunch of people to quietly start working on the kernel, working their way up, until they collectively accumulate enough power that they control the project. This isn't far-fetched: Torvalds has recently mentioned how some people who've only been working on the kernel for a few years are now in quite high level positions. Rust is entirely unnecessary for doing this - in fact, I'd argue it's hindering the ability of the developers using it to work their way up.
Also, I'm curious about the claim that woke people want to tear down the kernel and "remake it in their image." What would a woke version of the kernel even look like? Perhaps banning people with the "wrong" political attitudes, like we've seen from NixOS, Godot, OpenSuse, etc.? But the Rust in Linux people are not even close to having enough power to try and pull something like that. So, for now, I think this is just fear-mongering about a potential threat that could exist in the future.
"Rust is safer than C! We want in and we bring safety! Don't you want all of the buffer overflow null pointer error failure problem bugs to magically go away? Well, let us in!" If you can't see how this would be a useful tool to get in the door for a hostile takeover then I don't know how to help you.
@@JodyBruchonHaha get mad! The takeover is working HAHAHA!! 😂
@@RustIsWinning Thanks for the interaction!
@@JodyBruchon No problem! That will grow your small channel a little bit. I'm leaving now anyway.
I'm learning c 😊
Embedded C++11 for the win!
Which distros do not use rust?
I see C as having a low skill floor and high skill ceiling. C is very simple but that means a lot of the difficulty comes at the runtime semantics of a program. I do like that languages like Rust and Zig at least try to move more of the runtime pain to the compiler's semantic analysis rather than runtime.
The politics of the loud Rust user is definitely annoying. I'm definitely a bit more conservative than liberal so I find the politics to be offputting. At the same time what parts of the ecosystem you use will result in a vastly different experience. Anything related to game engines and development I would entirely write off even associating with because politics is so engrained. Embedded Rust seems far more grounded but I suspect Gramsci will come for them as well.
Linux in this video is presented as a bulwark against the march of progressive politics. I feel Rust isn't the biggest threat to Linux but rather userspace is. Wayland has both ideological capture and is a mess to implement. You can at least argue Rust has a technical merit, Wayland I'd argue has none because implementations have to manage libwayland's poor library apis and the fact that to display a window on rhe server involves 10kloc of code at minimum. Wlroots doesn't solve Wayland's issues either. It's api has to at least conform to Wayland's shape.
Anyways good video here, the discussion of politics in Rust does echo a lot of my thoughts here. Even though I do like Rust, I feel that the cult elements need to be silenced.
I think userspace was screwed the moment systemd became the default in Debian. Something with so many severe technical issues that so many people objected to still becoming the most important program on millions of systems by default was the biggest visible crack in the edifice of Linux.
I was very optimistic about Rust until I tried cross compiling and was like .. huh this is not really any better than C++ or C, it sucks. Go and Zig are so far the only languages in which cross compilation is not a hassle and literally *just work*
Ok, if a technology is primarily used by people of some particular type, belief system etc, the two do effectively become associated, but this is no evidence of intent. Maybe not 100% wrong but this is a poorly thought out rant. Dno why YT recommended the video, since I don't like Rust for quite different reasons.
Those are some bold claims. Do you have any proof?
@@JodyBruchon It's very rare that somebody asks for proof in such a manner is saying it in good faith. It's a form of gaslighting and I wouldn't bother humoring them too much. Anyone that has followed rust communities or even linux related news has seen these things.
@@notuxnobux is asking for proof bad now? no wonder
it was revealed to me in a dream
@@notuxnobux Nice bait, not surprised to see the pepe ppic.
Demanding proof of a social phenomenon is always disingenuous. You want peer-reviewed scientific sources for stuff I see in TH-cam comments, forums, and subreddits? HAHAHAHAHA
20 years from now.
*This code is wooooke!*
*This shoe is wooooke!*
*That bird that just flew by is woooooke!*
"Yes, yes Mr. Bruchon... lets get you to bed..."
They're just going to put me to bed so they can change the batteries in the damn birds.
Opening with how there will be quality issues with this video due to driving through the rain and downtalking rust leaves a great opening to a follow up video where you get access to an old rusted out vehicle (as if it was a consequence of rain-driving) for the next video where you praise rust.
Having not studied rust but run into its use on my system, I've had some technical and political issues with it already. If it isn't ready for a task, don't force it into the task until that can be changed.
My old programming goals have been to write more efficient code and get more control over the machine which has left me with an interest in C as a main language and assembly to better understand the machine and its software interactions.
Based. That is all.
Meds.
@@RustIsWinning Cope. Seethe. D**ate.
If the Rust cultists are communist, then maybe I should go back to it. Rust is boring and not really more secure when it matters, for example when you are using anything that interfaces with a C ffi, which is well everything or when you want to do something to run as fast a C++ you need to use 'unsafe'. If you want a modern language that is both fun and performant just use Zig or Odin, if you need to use jvm for some reason use Kotlin or Scala(maybe). And please if you want a language that replaces Javascript at least try Haxe, I know nobody uses it but hobbist game devs, but is my favorite language and I don't want it to die.
5:48 the cancel culture is mideval enqusition of 21th sentery
.. inquisition you mean
sentery?
are you trolling or smt ?
Yeah this is exactly the truth regarding Rust
We will rewrite the entire world in Rust. Paint the entire world in Rusty Red. Let's all march toward the Red Star.
Yeah, no, I wouldn't want Rust anywhere near anything I work on. It brings a rather nasty infection with it. No thanks. Besides, I don't wanna get swatted by armed police for having an opinion.
rust is as unstable as their supporters
@@exzld Lol
No Rust programs I've run have segfaulted, unlike C. Almost like the language was designed to be safe enough to be stable even with the stupidest devs
I taught myself C when I was a teenager. Anyone who says it's hard should find a different career, because they don't belong in software development.
A DDG search for "did google make the rust language?" feeds me a full page of results with the same article on different sites, claiming that rust is fantastic, and "77% of developers are comfortable with rust". No how-tos, no why-it's-greats, just a lot of assertions that it's great. Google adopted it, so that tells me it's bad all in itself.
More than that, if you go looking for articles critical of rust, you can't find them. I ceased any investigation of Rust when one of the largest proponents of Rust here on YT had an obvious strawman video crafted to hit the top of the "problems with rust" type searches. If _that_ is the kind of proponent of Rust, I'll look elsewhere.
The current occupier of the white house and regime endorsed rust publicly. That is enough for me. No thanks.
@@yellingintothewind That’s because search engines no longer give you good search results anymore. It’s all AI garbage or corporate backed websites giving you generic information.
If anyone knows an obscure search that gives result, I’d like to know it.
@@KratostheThird I've been trying brave's search. The results are marginally better most of the time than google/microsoft, but their crawler still can't filter out AI nonsense. I'm afraid the situation will get worse before it improves.
The worst part about this, honest to god, is that I know several people who are college age and just starting with Linux who aren't ideologues but still impossible on this stuff. It is such a pain in the ass to make them think about things logically when they shut down the moment you ask them to elaborate without an appeal to novelty. The one of them I know is also the kind of person who hates all the political nonsense but will not listen when anyone warns him about all the red flags popping up then 6 months later is so surprised when we were right. This guy deletes his whole computer to test the new shiny product the moment it drops and has yet to catch on it all sucked. He did it with GNOME, he did it with Wayland, He did it with NixOS and now with Rust. I wish the whole Linux community who have the common sense to keep this crap out luck, cause the next generation is too caught up in their own ADHD Drug Addled little minds to make their minds up.
Unfortunately they do not teach how to learn and think critically in college anymore. They just indoctrinate with "trust me bro."
@@shebangbinbash1776 Man, I'm in uni rn, they don't even teach you. They just ramp up prices and make sure only the bad professors remain so that you have to retake their courses over and over and pay them shitloads of money that you don't have.
@@shebangbinbash1776 They were already doing this in California back in the 90’s and the 2000’s. One of my friends went to Berkeley and over time he learned that some of the professors there weren’t teaching young people to critically think, but how to think.
This is also a big reason why younger generations (including Millennials) don’t seem to have as much of a grasp of certain things as older generations did.
Decades ago I knew some old people born in the 1910s (they were late 70s and 80s in age) whose minds were as sharp as a tack. None of them received any formal education, they went to highschool and then started family life while working basic, but hard demanding jobs. They were smart and well informed. None of them ever stepped foot on college campuses.
@@ClaimSuit Sounds like the young people Jody was talking about in his Rolling Rambles episode on Skill Issues.
:-D This needed to be said, and it was funny as hell to listen to. Thx!
Actually, C is so powerful that it is seen as the language of hackers, and the CEOs of giant companies see it as a security threat. In fact, they are afraid of the C language, which is why they are trying to promote the Rust language as a safe alternative. However, they don't know that an even better and more powerful language has emerged, named D, and the performance of the D language is unparalleled. In fact, this language is built on the skeleton of C and is their worst nightmare.
and there goes Debian(i will try to link )
Lunduke has a video in the sidebar about the wokey-pokey takeover of Debian. No straight white males allowed in the Debian foundation!
i wont comment on the political side, but...
the language was not proven..
"unstable, unprepared, not ready for prime time"
i thik the same could be said about C when it was a new language... it take times to fix issues, make it stable, and make sure its ready for production, every project need an testing branch where new ideas can be tested and refined before they enter the main project (or get rejected), if we used the fact that something is unproven as an excuse to not even try, then even C wouldnt exist.
C was based on BCPL which was based on B. It's actually the "3.0" of the language, so to speak.