AFDD: The Arc Fault Detection Device… again.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- The Arc Fault Detection Device… again.
Two years after my previous peek at AFDDs, I remind myself of what they are and what they do ahead of the possibility they’ll be mandated for new installations from 2022 onwards in 18th Edition Amendment 2. And yes, I know I look like a prick with that microphone, but you can hear me can’t you?
Draft for Public Comment (open until 11th December 2020):
standardsdevel...
Update 16/11/20: By coincidence(?), an email landed from Professional Electrician this morning linking to a video from Electrium regarding arc faults: • Arc Fault Detection De... - this video dates to 3rd September, however I hadn't seen it before today. It's worth a watch.
Additional thanks:
Musical commission: Alymazing Karaoke: / @alymazingkaraoke5946
Artwork commission: / luko3artist
Remember folks, electricity is dangerous stuff and here I am in this video deliberately trying to make it arc and spark, flailing around exposed live parts and eschewing even the most basic PPE. That’s my risk to take for the purposes of raising a few points in this video. It doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to copy or imitate anything you see here.
Oh, and two things: I haven’t really had an affair, I was actually in the wife’s bad books for eating all the biscuits but that sounds less cool. Also, I mention about AFDD’s being mandated on “6A lighting” circuits rather than showers etc., but I’m aware the DPC has an exception for lighting in domestic dwellings. Bad example. Let it go FFS.
Links:
My original AFDD video from 2018:
• The Arc Fault Detectio...
A follow-up video where I install AFDDs into my own home:
• The £1300 AFDD consume...
JW:
• Arc Fault Detection De...
SparkyNinja:
• Demo of the AFDD
Making sparks with Gaz and Joe at Tresham College in February 2019:
• AFDD Arc Fault Detecti...
eFixx:
• Are AFDD's the future ...
The Milli Vanilli lip-sync scandal:
www.mentalflos...
If you have to look up what this is, you’re too damn young. The Eighties was a great decade.
Richard Arblaster and his Bundy10 buggery: / r_arblaster
Those stick men things in the background of a couple of shots are Cube World toys from c2006. They're actually quite entertaining... for a while.
Checkatrade state: “Please be assured that Checkatrade authenticate customer reviews via call, email & SMS verification links, and IP tracking to list a few. Falsifying reviews is strictly forbidden and would result in membership suspension or termination.”
It seems to me that there's another major cost issue with these AFDDs, and that they will need considerably larger CUs and that given where these things are often installed, there simply won't be room. That means relocating the CU and that can be a very expensive and disruptive exercise.
Once things like this are put in the hands of those liable to industry lobbying, then there are obvious conflicts of interest involved and it starts to feel like a racket.
Retrofit is always the side of the regs that isn't thought about. Because the regs are applied from the point forward of their publication, it seems to me that the authors and manufacturers think of them as only being for shiny new builds. That the same technology has to be applied to the understairs cupboard for Mrs Scroggins when her BS3036 board is no longer adequate falls by the wayside. Imagine too the nightmare of being called out for an AFDD trip if you have retrofitted a new AFDD CU onto an older installation. One can test for and apply some detective work to overload/earth leakage faults, but potentially trying to locate a loose connection 'somewhere in the house' could be a nightmare. Overzealous cable clipping, pinched/pulled cables, a DIY junction box some idiot hid under the floorboards thirty years ago, a connected appliance with internal damage to its flex/connection position... it could keep you running around for hours with fruitless results. If such a device trips intermittently, how likely is it that the fault can be tracked down without decorative damage (pulling up floors, opening walls etc.) On a new build, you know there are no hidden junctions and the wiring has been tested as sound before commissioning, but applying this technology to older installations without the option to be able to fall back to a non-AFDD solution could be very problematic as dead-testing prior to upgrade may not indicate you're going to be left with a nuisance tripping problem afterwards.
I can see this creating a similar situation to when RCD installation became the norm, customers shying away from there installation due to rumours relating to "nuisance " tripping.
At first I thought the installation of an AFDD on a 1st floor lighting circuit of a thatched property would improve safety in regards to rodent damage( as I proudly suggested as a future upgrade to a recent customer) now after seeing your demonstration I'm not so confident.🤔
@@davidb3537 Advise a cat, it would likely show better results, be of similar cost and less nuisance.
The US versions fit in a single breaker position and are available combined with gfci (RCD) and breaker (MCB) functionality in a single unit for just under $50 apiece. This is about the same price as the GFCI only version. I don't see much reason why similar compactness and pricing shouldn't be possible in the UK marketplace.
Wow better than the stuff on the TV in the past 8 months 🦾
It's a low bar to be fair Gaz!
Gaz I see a spoof video on how to test AFDDs on your channel 😂🤣😂🤣😂
@@dsesuk your so much better than the shite on the TV, I look forward to your videos
@@dsesuk tons of work have gone into this video and it’s very much appreciated David 🦾.
I'm not convinced it's a great idea to stuff more active electronics with progressive failure modes into consumer units.
I can understand the need for arc fault interrupters in the USA where their home wiring resembles a cheap welder. But in the UK our higher voltage tends to be more decisive when arcing occurs, and quickly gets the earth involved, resulting in RCD tripping. (The Americans don't generally have RCDs at their DBs.)
As time goes on the IET has stopped representing sensible regulations and has turned into another HSE. A full time organisation inventing highly improbable accident scenarios and making new regulations for them.
Maybe it's time for a new open-source set of simplified regulations. Preferably not involving the National Institute of Clowns or the organisation that seems to have become a social club for the large number of (unemployed) college EE graduates that are churned out every year.
Totally agree with you Clive on every count. What gets my goat is that 'they' write the regulations in such an ambiguous form, that you are forced to purchase a further set of books to explain the meaning of the original text, which was written by the exact same bunch of fucks, sorry people, in the first place! Grrr
@@markrainford1219 indeed, I’ve just had the pleasure of passing my 18th edition. It’s essentially a legal document that happens to have Ohm’s law as its underlying theme. I’m fairly new to the domestic electrical world but spent 35 years working with safety critical aerospace systems. Many of the hacks in that industry, which also moves at a glacial pace, write in the same crusty 1960s style. I often find that if any of the contributors to a book have more than one middle initial, then it will be a turd to read. I agree with Big Clive above, it needs complete revision to be accessible for a practical audience of designers, installers and testers.
I suspect these things are too clever for their own good; stuffing too much technology into too small a package to monitor for a fault that probably doesn't manifest itself into catastrophic consequences nearly as often as is made out. I think Electrium were spaffing something off about there being 16,000 electrical fires a year, but I suspect an AFD would prevent few of these, most of them likely being down to overcurrent events where protection was inadequate or faulty appliances in which the burning begins after after a transformer and not on the distribution side at all. The Whirlpool dryers thang is an example of something that is classed as an electrical fire as it begins in an appliance during operation, yet is down to fluff getting on the heating elements and is nothing to do with the distribution electrics. The trouble is, it's all hard to get statistics for. How many fires can anyone say would have been prevented had an AFDD been installed, and how many AFDD trips can be definitively said to have prevented fires? If fire prevention really is a driver, then enforcing better installation standards and requiring regular inspections from people approved for such tasks would be more effective than any of these cures they keep trying to foist upon us to catch a high-temperature event as or after it's been allowed to start.
Here here
Most sockets in the US don't have switches and arcing and sparking happens when you pull out the plugs on unswitched appliances (unplugs heater, sparks fly out)
Another great video David. As usual it's funny, informative and brimming with creative genius 👏. I'm glad I stayed up late to watch this, although I feel I might be up all night trying to get my head around those equations? Very good Mr S.
Thanks for tuning in Beckster. And don't have nightmares.
Just brilliant in every dimension. Informative, thoroughly-researched, well-produced, perfect sound. A++++ would watch again. Thank you very much for your time in putting this together Mr Savery, you are a champ.
As we've come to expect from DSES, another hilarious yet informative video.
Thank you for finding the time, only wish they were more frequent. 👏
I was getting DSES withdrawal symptoms recently and had to resort to other comedy electrical channels. Imagine my joy when you and Nige return with a banger like this! Informative, accurate and best of all, Olympic standard crudeness. Brilliant, thank you. I shall now wipe the sprayed tea off my screen.
Cheers Mike. Sorry for the delay, this rubbish just takes too long to staple together.
Nothing better captures the essence of DSES than igniting the homebrew as proof of an arc 😂
That was a brilliant video Dave! Very informative and a great intuitive item. I can’t believe the IET suggest that AFDD’s should provide protection on circuits under 32A. We all know shower and high powered cooker circuits need this kind of protection! Looking forward to seeing more of your content! Unfortunately I can’t buy you a Stogy, but I have a can of Carling in the fridge!!👍👍👍
Enjoy the cold Carling Michael!
Wow, Dave, thanks for that very thought provoking presentation, you really put a lot of time and effort into it.much appreciated.☘️🇮🇪☘️
Superb item David. Thank you for taking the time. It’s spurred me on to actually do battle with that notoriously crap BSI website and actually make a comment.
Your thought that this amendment will price the change of domestic consumer units for those that most need them out of reach is absolutely bang on. And that then surely defeats the whole object of such a regulation, namely electrical safety improvement!
So a couple of things from my own personal experience. The regulations are being written with amendments (3 to every edition) with a new edition expected within 8 years. This I wont go into names but was actually informed by one of the BS7671:2018 authors that much of the drive is manufacturers, central gov and dno's - a combination of supporting colleges and passing the buck back to the consumer.
Now for the functioning of an AFDD, having worked in the USA and across Europe I've found that the circuits benefiting most are higher amp rated ones. Electric showers, AC units. In the USA half the voltage twice the amps for all the circuits and though you would think you wouldn't have the volts to drive the arc because of the amp rating of equipment to get the same power output AFDD works exceptionally well. Across the EU when I have come across them on occasion they haven't even picked up the fault even though the connections in the back of sockets have been blackened (did work on an electric shower though).
Here lies my issue with the suggested legislation, below 32 amp is likely not to have an issue to ever pick up on, trying to sell it to a customer for all circuits will be impossible (it's hard enough still trying to sell RCBO's over split load RCD even with the benefits). Any circuit that does have an issue isn't likely going to draw enough ampage to actually trip the damn things anyway. Showers, induction hobs, new electric central heating units - any 32 amp rated or up appliance I agree it's an improvement - the amount of times you replace a shower isolator in a year because of a burnt out neutral worrying and would help indicate an issue before it becomes a potential hazard or fire hopefully.
I have only ever come across one commercial installation where I wish it had one, Brighton, Old Ship Hotel - 3 phase AC units on the roof. Call late at night the AC isn't working properly - go up on the roof to check the panel in the plant room. Find the issue to be the 3 phase switch fuse fuses are no longer there, or rather the front of the fuse carriers are, behind is a constant arc. Motor had an issue..
Isn't some of the issues related to a misunderstanding about where the arc is located, and also what is being protected? For arc faults on the upstream, supply side, it is (can be) voltage transient (inductive) damage to the electronics (rather than basic electrics) on the lower power downstream side, such as your expensive TV, computers and home theatre (i.e. lower power circuits) that get damaged.
If the focus is moved to protection of expensive electronics from supply transients (often caused by arcs), then AFDDs make more sense. Unit price will follow usage.
@@philipoakley5498 If it was to protect against expensive electronics it would make sense were it not for transformers and rectifiers being fitted to every piece of modern consumer electronic equipment. As it was pointed out a few years ago we're basically at the point at 12/24v circuit could be run around the house saving the endless e-waste of new IET plugs and transformers for individual equipment.
If however as it reads to most of us and is intended it's to protect the circuit wiring/property and users of the circuit against arc faults rather than electronic equipment. In which case it's addition cost for no real improvement in safety for new builds given the amount of air and bug sealing to prevent damp and vermin damage. If it's to protect older properties wiring again the cost is prohibitive compared to the actual safety gain over an RCBO.
@@effervescence5664 The transient impulses will pass straight across the windings and rectifiers via the inter-winding capacitance and other stray capacitances. The signals will also be directly injected via the RFI filters (X & Y capacitors) as the Earth can have it's own transients. Don't forget those RFI filters inject up to 1.6mA per load to the earth, so there's a good pathway right there.
Correction: USA is 120V for some circuits and 240V for other circuits. We use 240V for our "large appliances" like AC units, stoves/ranges, and washers/dryers. Remember, USA (residential) is on so-called "split phase" power. We have two line wires coming from the transformer (120V each). "Add" them together, and you have 240V. If you don't need both line wires, you just use one (giving you 120V as is standard in most outlets). The large appliances use both line wires, making them 240V.
Well done for bringing this to a wider audience with humour. Personally I am concerned they are a solution to a non-problem, and a source of potential grief, and also thank you for showing a wider the how to place a comment on the draft.
Is it a non-problem ? A while ago I discovered a loose connection in a shower switch,there had been arcing and about an inch of insulation had melted back from the end. Presumably one of these things would have operated,it was pure chance I found the fault, the 'electrician' had managed to fit the switch so the neon was on all the time,quite a feat considering it was already wired correctly.
How about using a solenoid arrangement to pull the contacts apart when current flows - this should be moderately self-adjusting. For the currents involved, a few turns of wire, and a magnet on one of the stop-ends would probably do the trick.
BTW maybe try some audio levelling next time...
An interesting idea. The solenoids that is. The audio levelling too... probably.
@@dsesuk Free s/w that does levelling: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levelator
@@Richardincancale Cheers Dingo
so today i get into Napit, and coulnt of done it without you Nick and Chris all three of you have inspired me to push harder
great videos great guys
thankyou
Well done old chap, but don't do yourself down; you'd have got there without the input from.. uh.. Nick and Chris... I'm sure!
One big issue with AFDD and RCBO is they all consume between 0.5W and 1.0W. This doesn't sound a lot until you consider that the average installation will have between 6 an 10 of the things meaning that a house could be consuming 80KWh/year or about 2% of the average power consumption. If you get 20 million homes with the things then something like 100MW (0.25%) of the entire grid production will be doing nothing but heating the buggers. I've not seen any performance requirements for idle power consumption of RCBO/AFDD devices where the cost of wasted power over a few years could exceed the purchase price of them.
AC powered smoke detectors are another area where energy efficiency is seen as an externality by the manufacturers and installers but many consume nearly a watt and sometimes have a VA consumption over 10 times that. Again, a significant amount of generation capacity has to be deployed to handle these always-on devices where a little engineering could reduce the grid load (real and VA) something like 100MW.
This is true Andy, and I've seen that about smoke alarms before. Energy is assumed to be 'on tap' for such devices so often not a lot of thought is put into their running efficiently. It's like the old gas boilers with their ever burning pilot light.
Someones got to keep the spiders warm.
This is definitely the best way to demonstrate a safety device - with the busbar and all the other live gubbins exposed whilst getting your hands and fizzog uncomfortably close to said live bits.
More of the same please, Mister Savery :D
More tomfoolery around exposed live parts to come Alex. Watch this space.
Four WORDS HOLYWOOD , STARDOM , CAREER CHANGE
I think there's a limited audience for this nonsense jj - and they're all subscribed here already!
A few questions/observations (I am in the US).
1) As he said early in the video, the devices look for a particular signature and need to exclude arcs from switches and motors. I have to wonder if the motor in the hairdryer was creating a strong enough 'motor' signature that the Arc fault detector did not recognize the LAFTD (Lego Arc Fault Testing Device :-) ). It would be interesting to try a set of tests with purely resistive loads to see what wattage is required to trip the detector. (Several years ago I would have used a bunch of large wattage incandescent bulbs for a resistive load..... but I don't have any incandescent bulbs in my house anymore)
2) He mentioned Parallel Arc Fault. I don't know about the AC Arc Fault Detectors, but I am pretty sure that the Solar Arc Fault Detectors are only looking at serial Arc Fault conditions.
3) The AC arc fault detectors are different than solar arc fault detectors. I have not searched in a few months, but when I last looked I could not find a stand-alone solar Arc Fault Protection device. Everything was built into Charge controllers, Rapid Disconnect Boxes or all-in-one units.
Oh, a new David video, priority watching list.
Dave brilliant video and your song should go to no 1 🤣 and I’m glad your using the Iceland masks I sent you 😂😂👍
Yes indeed, thanks for those Alan - very comfortable they are too!
Wow! Comprehensive and full on. And yes, I agree that the whole issue of AFDD's is fraught with difficulties. John Ward tried to test these devices a year ago and he too ended up scratching his head about the whole issue ..... most house consumer units don't even have RCBO's fitted and simply come with one or two RCD cut outs controlling multiple circuits. Mrs. Scroggins is not going to be pleased when quoted sums of money approaching a couple of grand to bring her board up to latest specs. It.s a conundrum, for sure. By the way, I am merely a well informed DIY amateur who spent his life working with multimeters and oscilloscopes. Every circuit on my consumer unit is protected by it's individual RCBO and I have NO intention of upgrading to AFDD's!
Hi David
another fantastically informative video as always, I was listening to a podcast from Schneider regarding the Amendment changes this week your video has spurred me on to put in my objections to the changes, I can see the idea behind putting the AFDD into a board when you have heavy loads such as Induction hobs, electric showers and EV charging points but do not see the point on any circuit from a 32 amp ring main down to the not so trusty Din mounted door bell transformer imagine telling Mrs Scoggins to protect your door bell its going to cost you £154 plus VAT just for the parts only so an average house with 10 circuits would cost £1848.00 for the 10 AFDD's inc vat £56.40 inc VAT for the SPD unit, plus £81.60 for the Metal clad CU so a grand total of £1986.00 in materials and thats without making a profit on the materials plus your installation costs
Pricing's a no-go at the mo., but will come down to more acceptable levels no doubt. Still, the days of low-cost consumer units are numbered. Anyone not already spending well over £100 on the base hardware risks some wag popping up in five to ten years writing off what they've got on a moody EICR.
@@dsesuk completely agree about budget consumer units, I only install RCBO boards and have done for the last ten plus years, I always explain the reason for using RCBO boards, I’ve been lucky my customers all trust my judgment, I know the prices will drop but to what price?? As you said in your video how are we to actually test the AFDD on the initial install and on periodic inspections etc, I think by this time next year Dave and Nigel will be millionaires when you’ve patented your pedal bin AFDD tester module, I’m sure Megger, Fluke and TIS will be knocking on your door very soon
😁😁😁
An instrument for testing AFDD's is described in US patent: US 6,426,632
This has the advantage of testing the breaker with a programmed, repeatable waveform so an apples-to-apples comparison can be made for different breakers.
During product development, this makes it possible to objectively check the before and after performance when changes are made to the circuit.
The complete instrument is compact enough that electricians could carry it to a job site to evaluate individual breakers.
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Very clever buddy. You make me doubt my knowledge as a sparky to the point where I'm seriously considering becoming an apprentice again 🤦♂️😏
Crikey Darren, don't listen to anything I say!
@@dsesuk too late.....learned a few good tips watching your videos dude so unbeknownst to you I AM your apprentice....figuratively speaking 😏👌
All jokes aside keep rolling loved this upload.
Brilliant and my sentiments exactly. We have an industry focused on coming up with ever more complex devices to deal with the symptoms of problems instead of the root-causes. Remember, what used to be a nice simple bit of fuse wire has gone through several development changes to the now AFDD. Let's guess the next step; could these be smart IOT AFDDs so that matey in some distant land can hack into your consumer unit and turn your power off for you! And all of this for what exactly? If your cabling is vulnerable to to rodent damage and so arc-faults, isn't the solution to wire in a manner which means it is not vulnerable to rodents? Apparently not, as we now have the wonderful AFDD so we can continue to install cabling in the barking mad way it is done today; that is in amongst a whole load of fibre-glass wool (which might work for a bit as insulation, if installed properly, at least until sparky and plumber have to crawl around it, scuffing and displacing it and filling their lungs with glass particles and dust). The old adage Keep It Simple Stupid (or KISS principle) seems to have long been lost on the corporates determined to sell their next big idea. Heaven help the planet and all who live on her. Watch the mining of bit-coin in Kazakhstan to conclude finally that man-kind has truly lost the plot - burning coal to generate numbers being the solutions to a complex algorithm, then sell the numbers for USD45000 a piece and stuff the environment - who cares?
Yay absolute amazing 😂😂😂 but then what could possibly come after skankster and grunts 🤔😅😅😅Bundy and Adam, over to you 😂😂😂
Hi David, love the vids always full of information and comedy
Neato AFDD test device in the 'pedal can'. How about an AC compressor start thermistor as a 'load' across a fixed spark gap? Initially low resistance, should form the arc, resistance increases as any current flows.
For your plug-in tester, you could use a springy contact and an electromagnet. When the springy thing touches the fixed contact it closes the circuit, current flows and the electromagnet pulls the springy thing away to open the connection. The magnet goes off and the cycle repeats. Nice arcs without a critical mechanical adjustment.
Nuisance tripping can be such a problem, the manufacturers have to make the breakers relatively insensitive. Their usefulness is reduced but they are better than nothing.
.
Very good, informative and raises very valid points of which I will be supporting! Thanks for putting your time into this video keep it up!!
Cheers Sam, let 'em have it!
At 2.47 to 2.54, are you doing Nigel up the chocolate star fish 😂
😂😂😂brilliant. One of the best you tube channels out there . Funny and very informative
Hi Dave It’s times like these that make me glad I’m retired. But I must say you’re analytical approach regarding this new potential device very interesting. You have definitely shown some possible limitations in its application thanks to your fiendish device . Food for thought as they say, I can honestly say I’ve never come across an electrician with so much knowledge on the technical side . And the ability to do the job it self to a high standard. The 👍 fitting of surge protection in domestic installations was only ever seen in my time on specials situations . The times as they say are a changing , it does however put yet more pressure on the trade to keep up . I have read your reply to a previous comment regarding the possibility of attending a fault that may lie deep in the fabric of the building that has activated a flash protection unit And which could prove very difficult to find , not to mention costly. But If it proves to improve safety, it would be difficult not acknowledge its use . I wonder what other new things await you and your colleagues in the future, before you finally hang up your ( plasma generating electro magnetic photo pulse wave form multi dimensional tester ) 😃 thanks for all your great videos . Plus I must put a mention regarding your esteemed helper , a veritable prince among men . He the beaded one , whose sagely advice I’m convinced you would be lost without. 😂 best wishes from Mike 👍
Prince among men?? Bloody hell Mike, if he reads that he'll be demanding a pay rise of six shekel's a week! You're right though in that if an AFDD is tripping following a retrofit, then it's doing so for a reason and a trip is better than a fire. The headache I have from a practical point of view is that I've attended EICRs before where I've identified via dead testing that there may be a poor connection somewhere, say rn is out compared to r1 and r2 on a ring, but after removing every available accessory the cause of that duff number is not apparent, meaning it's probably in a screw junction that's long since been buried somewhere. At present, I can advise the client there may be a loose connection and finding it may result in our pulling up their floors to which they can weigh up whether they want to fork out for the disruption or go on living with the risk. If AFDDs are mandatory though, and one is tripping off intermittently after I perform a CU upgrade, no client is going to be happy by my telling them the only resolution is now to live with the nuisance or have their house torn apart at extra expense. They'll think I'm making it up to cash in.
Thanks. Enjoyed the video and filled in some gaps for me on AFDDs
But the rcd is looking for leakage, the mcb, fuse, is looking for short circuit what is the afdd looking but over heating in a shower or cooker switch, arcing is constant in electrical switching.
This is the best video I have watched on YT in months. Well done David, loved every minute and have now gone to comment on AFDDs myself. The rap should be released and made available on spotify etc!
Who’d think watching a video on arc fault detection after midnight Sunday morning would make for a good night? That’s 2020 for you. Even though I’ve never been in electrical trade of any description, I did enjoy watching all of
It.
Thanks for persevering Philip!
I watch most of the TH-cam sparks videos but I have to say this is the most impressive I’ve seen. Very clever and lots of sense.
Here in North America the problem with AFCIs is electricians who use too many and/or non insulated Romex staples and feel that they need to drive them in like they’re Thor vanquishing evil. Electric companies here in a production home environment tell all sorts of fanciful tails of why AFCIs and/or dual function (GFCI & AFCI) breakers are not holding. My personal favorite is it the house has settled and pinched the cabling, not that their $13 an hour with no experience and schooling “electrician” with four of them feverishly running around the house to complete a rough-in (first fix) in just 16hrs and in a hurry over drove staples and/or ran more than two 14 and/or 12awg wires though a 7/8 hole. I hope for your sake’s that since twin and earth is more robust and since you guys use plastic clips for most work that you don’t have as many headaches, I will bet you that the over use of those fire clips to placate the safety Sally’s in the TH-cam community are going to come back to bite some people.
Getting called out to an arc fault trip will be an interesting experience, one as yet unfamiliar to 99% of sparkies over here. One can test for and apply some detective work to overload/earth leakage faults, but potentially trying to locate a loose connection could be a nightmare. Overzealous cable clipping, pinched/pulled cables, a DIY junction box some idiot hid under the floorboards thirty years ago, a connected appliance with internal damage to its flex/connection position... it could keep you running around for hours with fruitless results. And that's another consideration against them for retrofit installations I guess. If we *have* to install them when fitting a new DB into an older property and such a device trips intermittently, how likely is it that the fault can be tracked down without decorative damage (pulling up floors, opening walls etc.) On a new build, you know there are no hidden junctions and the wiring has been tested as sound before commissioning, but applying this technology to older installations without the option to be able to fall back to a non-AFDD solution could be very problematic as dead-testing prior to upgrade may not indicate you're going to be left with a nuisance tripping problem afterwards.
I was actually looking into these not so long back for an office upgrade, apparently they need a minimum current draw to operate properly (around 2 to 3A); not likely to be effective on things like LED lighting circuits...
Do you know if that's total load or arc load? As in, if the circuit has 3 A on it but only the last 100 mA device on the end is arcing, will that do it, or does the 2-3 A load have to pass through the arc to be detected?
Total load from what I can gather; the actual loading value seems to vary between manufacturers, but I don't know of any that operate effectively with less than 2A.
AFDD seems to be a minefield still...
Hi David, do you think that we would be able to convert consumer unit to all double pole RCBO instead of having to fit AFDD, or do you think that the boffins in smart suit would object? Cheers Ian (Kerr Electrics)
So up to 32A? Most common arcing I’ve seen is on shower circuits which are 40a and above. Am I missing something?
We're both missing something Martin, as that's exactly where I figured these things would be best placed too.
I sincerely hope you never have a house fire David, that goes without saying, but if you ever did the investigating fire officer would stick his head in your man cave, immediately go on the sick and apply for early retirement. Great vid as always.
Hi David. Very comical and at the same time too the point!! Especially about CU pricing options and safety!!!
I have no idea how you get away with these videos with all the language, but I fucking love it. Thank you for the information.
Cheers Jess, fucking glad to have you here as always!
Hi David how you doing, just wanted to say if we don't see you or get any more videos before the new year then you and your family have a wonderful Christmas and a fantastic new year, and please keep safe
The problem with electrical arcs is that they're just about everywhere everyday causing little to no harm. Any time you flick a switch with any sort of load attached it will arc, thermostats arc, you get arcing in brushed motors, but all of these arc events take place in enclosures designed to safely contain arcing. So this is why AFDDs have to be intentionally designed with such a low sensitivity which ultimately defeats their usefulness.
Even so I imagine that if AFDDs become widespread then electricians will have a roaring trade in replacing sockets where old oxidised contacts are causing more arcing, and landfills will be piled high with old electric heaters which trip the electrics every time they're switched on.
Is there a afdd that would protect a bank of mcb’s like an RCD would? Will be very pricey if you have 10 separate afdd modules to buy. Will be a very expensive board change
An AFDD can protect multiple circuits, however seeing as the regs are changing to do away with RCDs that act as a single point of failure for multiple circuits, it's unlikely the IET will mandate another device that has the same issue. Either prices will plummet, or they'll just be omitted as a deviation on cost vs. risk grounds as few can afford four-figure consumer units!
that last AFDD tester is.. wait for it... rubbish! I'll see myself out.
Top class as usual, loved the RAP and your super strong home brew 😂👍 sound was a bit all over the place Dave.. Cheered me up while recovering from covid 😎👍
Sorry to hear of the COVID old fruit, I hope you're well on the mend! Sorry for the audio too - sounded okay through the PC speakers, should have tried it through some headphones!
@@dsesuk cheers Dave, think I'm over the worst, bloody horrible don't catch it 😩 on your audio maybe try a limiter, and compressor on the whole finished audio in post. Jordan at artisan has similar problems. Keep up the good work 😊👍
Hi Dave, if any of your Cornish followers are looking for a start in industrial electrical work we need another body.
Ideally someone with some experience wiring motors etc, so mid apprenticeship and needing a new placement would be a good match.
Plus if they follow you they won't be surprised by the banter.
I think I may have found out how the US equivalent of the AFDD came about (I cannot guarantee the accuracy of this information)
from what I have found out, they were originally for circuits where an electric blanket is connected, as AFDDs are apparently quite good at preventing electric blanket fires (although apparently modern-day electric blankets, at least over there, have their own built-in arc detection), and then someone had the bright idea that they should be on every circuit in the house
Maybe you could make a more consistent AFDD tester using a MOSFET to switch a load at a high frequency to emulate an arc.
Well. A triak rather
Hello 👋
@@whatevernamegoeshere3644 Harder to do with a Triac as it switches off during zero crossing and then you need to switch it back on (ideally) at the waveform peak using a zero cross detector. You can switch AC anywhere you like in the waveform (Hell you can even PWM the 50Hz waveform) by using a MOSFET (or IGBT) inside a bridge rectifier (it's how those modern fancy dimmers that can do both leading and training edge dimming that work with dimmable LED's work).
Why did you need relay operating erratically ? why did you use 2 timers ??
I do wonder if these will be brought in for new installations only and not for fitting onto existing installations. So a DB change wouldn't need them, but a DB change while you are adding a new circuit, the new circuit only would need an AFDD.
That would be a good compromise Wayne. It would be easy to employ these to good new wiring with known routes and no hidden gotchas, and having the option to not have to retrofit them onto creakier installations would save some potential bother. Of course, it's the creakier installations that may benefit more from their presence!
@@dsesuk i agree with the creamier installations that need it more. Was the same when Rcds came out, its still fun now fitting 30mA to circuits that have never had it before. I think AFDD will be in the amendment 2 though. More money for the manufacturers.
This is great viewing and so bloody funny, best on youtube without a doubt..!!
What if your afdd tester had the gap removed and was just the element connected to test leads? Is the act of just touching the test leads onto the contacts enough to make a series arc?
Fantastic and fun . When you going to get a tv series.
TV? Is that still a thing??
How does he find the time ?? Quality production as always
I don't. That's why it's been about a month since the last one!
I think he said he did it to get away from the wife.!!!!!!😂😂😂😂,
you and Nigel need to have your own sitcom on TV
behind your comical character there is a genius by fluke
thank you
Great video David - I will add my comments to the consultation process
Stick it to 'em Julian!
Just a brilliantly compiled well informed video David.... the work you put into these is astonishing.
More stuff in the consumer units that we have to convince customers they have to splash out for. When they ask why all we can say is that the book says we have to
Man if there was ever a governor of electrical it would be this man. Valid and from the heart. Where do we go from here it is indeed very sad.
This is a great channel lmao love the halon 1301 your now a member of the infamous 1301 club know to a few !
This video did to my brain what I imagine a Lidl version of a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster would do........ Thanks.
That BBC intro was brilliant followed by a banger of a rap.
Hi David, great video. One question I would grateful if you could answer or perhaps one of your fans, is how many AFDD's do you need in a CU?. Is it just one which covers the whole board or does each MCB/RCD/RCBO need to be replaced with a version that includes an AFDD? The former option is do-able for most people but latter would basically add several hundred pounds to a simple CU swap/update. In this video, your board has one AFDD but in another recent video, I see you updating one of your boards to include 9 AFDD units.
Hi Darren. As you saw in the follow-up video, AFDDs are applied per circuit. Technically, an AFDD can monitor multiple circuits; it's only looking at noise on the line and doesn't care if the current is feeding multiple circuits. That said, the headache with applying an AFDD to across circuits is that you're putting in a single point of failure much like you have with RCDs on split-load boards which is something Amendment 2 is trying to move away from. An AFDD trip that takes out several circuits would go against regulation 314, be a proper pain to faultfind on and be very inconvenient for those resident in a dwelling. If Amendment 2 mandates AFDDs, you can expect prices to drop significantly as volume of sales ramps up. If not, we just won't be fitting them.
@@dsesuk Thank you for the detailed reply. I too hope the prices drop considerabley but as you say, if the powers to be are aiming to phase out split load RCD boards as well, you are still looking at £20 extra per circuit. Wishing you a Happy New Year and all that jazz, Darren.
I often forget I'm watching a video about electrics, I find myself looking forward to your next videos as if it were the next new episode of Family Guy.
Keep em coming!
Awesome demonstration.
Well I wouldn't say we've had them for years it's more like we (thay) wrote them into code and beta tested them for you in New builds and had a lot of false positive tripping. It's still a sore subject on the side of the pond I know that there are electricians that will rent them out for the install get inspection and then swapped back over. it makes more sense as a test is my mind but I think there's a lot of credibility to be left when you're actually causing an arc and there's devices that cause arcs and it's not tripping.
We did finally get shuttered Outlets although personally I think we really need sleeved pins. I for one have gotten a few shocks from unplugging something and accidentally hitting the prongs.
I guess in the meantime the only effective way to test them is to plug a high resistance load End of Line and hope for the best.
Supposedly we have testers as I have seen at least one on a certain old house TV show.
And well I have heard a few reasons why we need them like nails in a while without protective nail guards over the cable siding Nails Etc the biggest push for them I think was the plugs behind Furniture in bedrooms smashed into the wall with a hard crease and bend on the cable or being pinched between things and electric blankets. Then they started pushing the requirement out from just bedrooms to living areas.
And Meanwhile where are all the faults coming from?...... the kitchen Fitters or the US equivalent DIY Cowboys.
And the cost just keeps getting pushed on to the consumer which is more likely to go out and say I can do it myself even though I don't know anything.
Thankfully we have some protection by grandfathering in the US although that is variable by jurisdiction and code version in use and the inspector.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. The point about them being uninstalled after inspection is interesting! I honestly can't see them taking off here unless the price comes down significantly and statistical evidence is shown for their efficacy. We shall see!
As a non electrician who volunteers helping fire safety, I wonder how many fires would be prevented using this technology. There is a danger that the technology is implemented just because it is available regardless of the cost. It seems that if this is mandatory the cost of a consumer unit change will at least double. I understand that this tech is used in other countries so getting data should be possible. Without data there is a danger that people will not replace old consumer units (because of cost) thus increasing rather than decreasing the overall fire risk.
I suppose it's a tough one to provide evidence for. An AFDD trip doesn't necessarily mean a fire has thus been prevented, and a fire caused by a suspected loose connection may not necessarily have been prevented had an AFDD been present. I suspect most electrical fires are caused by duff appliances outside of the supply wiring where fuses/breakers/RCDs/AFDDs don't detect a problem, an example being the Whirlpool dryers thing which is caused by fluff gathering on the heating elements and has nothing to do with an electrical fault on the supply wiring. If reducing electrical fires is the aim, mandating EICRs to ensure installations are maintained, insisting on PAT testing for rental accommodation and policing those undertaking such work to stamp out the cowboys would be more effective. Good installation workmanship and good ongoing maintenance is the prevention, devices such as AFDDs are more like a cure.
Great stuff as usual David. With that microphone, You remind me of a roving reporter for regional tv!
Superb work Sir David Savery.
Thank you Mr Singh
I moved to Canada in 2003 just as the Ontario code book as it’s called brought in the AFCI as they call them. I had bought a new home and my Panel was sited in the garage. After being there for 6 months which happened to coincide with the winter and a temp of -25 I decided I would function test the AFCI which at the time were only required for Bedroom circuits. They all failed to trip. So what use really were they I thought. I brought this issue up with a tutor as I was taking my red seal journeyman’s licence and he had some hand in the Ontario code content and was taken back by my claims. They have over the years expanded there use around the house now and I am not surprised UK has followed. They seem to use North America as a test bed. GFCI(rcd) metal consumer cases, and now AFCI(AFDD). At least you can thank North America for Trying Aluminium general wiring first and finding it a disaster made worst by mixing it with copper wiring which I believe could be why they introduced them in the first place. I am perplexed at the amount of changes that have been made here on my return after 15 years there. AND WHAT THE FUCK IS PART FUCKING P.
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I wonder if making the ends of your arcing contacts pointy would help.
Sharp tips = higher E field (think ionisers) = arc starts with larger gap - making gap adjustment less sensitive.
Just a thought.
Points make prizes... as they say. It's a good point (no pun intended) - certainly going wire to wire doesn't seem to do the do, so perhaps something bigger, like the brass stop-end but with a pointy tip, might get things fizzing more effectively.
N Bunty has posted a video of a CU fire , cased by arc fault on the main 100amp switch , currently there is no main switch than can be operated by a AFDD . . I agree the AFDD should be a option . If AFDD's are made compulsory then CU changes are not going to be affordable or our industry is going to see DIY CU changes and a lot more partial rewirers leavimg the old CU in place . Mandate them for new builds only
Good stuff. What was the resistance value of the dustbin test equipment Arc gap using a low resistance test? Does it seem likely that a fault such as this could be avoided by using such tests on L/N, L/E, and N/E. May suggest to the BSI people.
It's open circuit on an Ohmmeter and even at 1000V doesn't trouble an IR test. Besides a high enough voltage, you need a decent current to be drawn across the thing for it to operate and any dead test isn't going to give you that. Also, if it did register on an Ohmmeter or on an IR test, then the voltage wouldn't be able to build up enough to cause an arc in the first place. You can see this for yourself by replicating the parallel IR test using saltwater as I did (post fire). Too much water between the cores, and the IR tester will bomb out at a low voltage without any fireworks. If you want to see some sparking, you need it partially dried out so the IR tester can build up to a few hundred volts at which point it has the wallop to zap across the cores.
The vandals in my house clipped a cable and even tried to scratch off my tinting permit, but they didn't know I have a Police approved permit.
I cannot find any refs/datasheet to the self testing feature for nxsb20afd. An anyone point me in the right direction?
Great video 👍 I personally think these devices are total wank. An RCD is a much better and safer device. Keep up the good work 👍
Let's just say the IET get their way and make AFFD's mandatory, where would you even start when trying to find an arc fault especially on the parallel faults???
This is the trouble Alvin. New builds are one thing, but can you imagine the arsehole of an intermittent arc trip on an older installation following a CU changeout? Some junction box with a screw loose hiding under the floorboards thirty years after some DIY homeowner put it there?? If the regs don't allow you to fall back to a traditional RCBO, how are you going to resolve the problem, especially if everything appears to be working as far as the homeowner is concerned?
Sorry the only answer is a rewire Mrs Scoggins!!
14:42 Sorry for the slight distraction, what are those 4 cubes to the right?
That's what I love about your videos Dave a common sense approach, sadly something seriously lacking in today's world it seems..... I do not want to leave poor Mrs Goggins without at a bare minimum RCD/MCB protection, the proposed amendments would halt that option at a stroke, leaving people with a lower budget unable to upgrade to at the very least basic protection against fault bar the crappy old wylex rewireable fuse board she already has installed which we all know can be fused incorrectly, there needs to be a budget option for those that can't afford the bells and whistles package
Great video and demo rig.
It’s going to be tricky fitting those sections of pipe to a circuit in just the right place ahead of the arc fault developing so the AFDD can kick in 😂
Seriously though, it’s not just going to be a difficult conversation with a customer explaining why you’re charging an extra £100 - £150 per circuit. If the price of those things doesn’t come down it will only fuel the cut-price cowboys or diy disasters as people find the cost of the genuine spark too much to bear. It’s one thing writing a regulation based on technical safety, but human factors need to be included in that assessment to really understand if the risk to the wider population is actually going to reduce as intended. I suspect it is not.
Let’a hope, if everyone does have to start fitting them, that the cost will come down!
In the meantime I might buy shares in IET - seems like they’ve got a good business model!
I suppose the price is currently high because volume of sales isn't there at present. Go into any wholesaler and ask what AFDD's they have off-the-shelf and you'll be met with a blank response. If the wording changes, then prices will drop significantly with manufacturers competing to be the brand you familiarise yourself with for this new tech from the off. If prices don't drop, people just won't fit them regardless of what the brown book says. So long as I can buy an enclosure and the RCBO's I need, then the absence of AFDD's will remain recorded as a departure on the certificate because the client 'refused or otherwise lacked the budget for their purchase'!
Very entertaining. Either your wife has a great sense of humour or refuses to watch your videos. As for the rap, in the words of Clive Anderson to Jeffrey Archer.... is there no beginning to your talents !!
Fortunately, she doesn't watch this cack. She also knows I'd never really cheat on her as she provides all the complication I need from women in my life without my venturing abroad.
Hi, David love your videos, entertainment and learn a few bits.
If you find time could you do a video on safe isolation process, just need to get Michael story out
could lead to some odd circumstances, for me its possible that say a kitchen rewire will need to have AFDDs installed,whereas the rest of the house wired in 80s or 90s can stay on RCBOs. So I'd be paying extra to have protection on the safest circuits.
If the costs come down, then you'll see them retrofitting into existing CU's for certain new circuits I'm sure... unless the manufacturers start getting sneaky and tooling new AFDD's to be incompatible with older boards to either get you to upgrade or to hold you to ransom for 'obsolete' parts. Kind of like when Eaton moved from Memshield 2 to 3 so that any RCBO's you want to retrofit into consumer units installed around the Millennium cost a horrendous amount.
Anyone got stats on how many fires are caused by faults that could have been prevented with an AFDD?
th-cam.com/video/g4FI8YTmhZU/w-d-xo.html
none,
The only loose connection/arcing I've had in my approx. 30 year old installation was the 100A supplier fuse around a year ago, not sure if an AFDD will detect Arc faults before the consumer unit, I assume not given there's a minimum load requirement as well. I've also heard of loose connections on meter swaps/smart meters installs which may or may not have been installed by some minimum wage kid given a weeks training and on a time pressure (maybe?)
Check out that Amstrad PPC640/512 in the back of the failed portable arc fault tester shot!
Have you tried putting your 2 kW load on the AFDD but then using only that 100 mA light through the spark gap? I'm curious whether you need the full 2 kW arcing for the AFDD to trip, or whether it will trip on a small arc so long as there's some minimum total current flowing.
I haven't tried replacing the heating element with a lower load on my fixed-gap setup, but having tried similar on the adjustable apparatus I don't think it would work. I think I saw somewhere that there's a minimum load requirement for these things to operate and that it's quite high (in the order of over four Amps or something). Not sure where I saw that or if I dreamed it though.
Superb comment again David, good to see Nigel as well.
JW did a video showing these devices needed to be extremely over loaded to detect an arc in a faulty connection. More complex technology might be less reliable than existing RCDs. Could be health and safety going mad as usual.
Wow ! The conditions have to be perfect for the device to work correctly. What a sound investment !.
They work great if you happen to be pulling a couple of kiloWatts through some Lego.
Dave, it looks like Big Clive watches your channel from the mention of AFDD's in big clive live :)
A more pressing issue than the AFDD would be to end the use of RING circuits, where the circuit current protection is above the rated cable current.
@Dusty 99 what do you mean “no problems” rings are ALWAYS where the problem is Just ask JW who describes rings as the work of the devil himself
Not a sparky, but love your hilarious and informative videos - also the 'Nostromification' of the twat lab!
It's all fine and dandy until I have to go crawling around in the air ducts.
lol was that the wtc 7 fire alarm sound?
Brilliant Sunday telly David, still throw the regs book in the bin 🗑
Well Davo youv done it again... a rag-tag video that draws you in with man-cave humour and then slams you with real facts and real sensible opinions.. hat's off to ya!
It's the old slap-down and quickly kick-you-in-the-balls technique that has got me this far in life.