Hi everyone, I've had a few questions regarding Trooper Pepper and whether he provided any statements; in my 4 years of researching this incident, I haven't come across any testimonies given by Trooper Pepper relating to either how he became a Prisoner of War or what happened to the other crewmen. The most obvious source would've been the 141st Regimental History published in 1951, but there are none. Another source would've been an interview taken during a post-war War Crimes investigation, however, as mentioned in the video, there are no publicly known War Crimes files held by the National Archives. It is unfortunate, as I'm certain that any recollection Trooper Pepper had on the incident, would have answered a lot of questions, or, at the very least, provided some pointers as to what happened. And, as has rightly been pointed out, the Infantry shown carrying the Panzerfausts at 3:28, are Finnish and not German. A huge thanks to 'Military Compilation' for correcting this and providing a lot of details regarding the identities of those pictured and the background to the photo. Thanks, LfE
Thanks for clearing that up about Pepper👍 I'm definitely going with it being a friendly fire incident that was turned into a "lined up and shot by the SS" story to not destroy morale in the early days after d-day. Which has never been corrected simply due to being overlooked in the madness of the last days of the war. The simple fact that there's no official account from Pepper (he must've given one) leads me to believe that.
Little mistake. Minute 3:28, the soldiers are Finnish. June 30th, 1944. From left to right, panssarijääkäri Eino Heikkila, sergeant Kalle Niemelä and sergeant Heino Nikulassi, from Infantry Regiment JR 12, 2nd Division, pass a Soviet T-34 tank destroyed by a Stug III assault-gun from Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 303 (commanded by Unteroffizier Willy Obdeldobel) on the Imatra Road, Tali-Ihantala. Niemelä and Nikulassi are carrying Panzerfausts on their shoulders. Nikulassi also has a Suomi KP-31 SMG. He was killed the following day.
Thanks for the correction! That is completely my mistake; the caption I read labelled them as German Infantry at Kursk, July 1943. Thanks again for correcting this, especially with the level of detail you have provided - that is very much appreciated
@@graemesydney38 thanks! I still remember the talk with a Finnish historian, he clearly helped me with the context of the photo (I asked him because I had the colourised version by Marina Amaral, look for it, the work done there is amazing). Continuation war is really interesting.
Liveth for Evermore - I have to say I greatly enjoy your productions. They are detailed and the reverence and respect of which you outline the sacrifice the men involved is nothing short of incredible. Thank you sir for bringing these stories to the masses, whom I can only hope appreciate the phenomenal effort you put into these presentations and the valiant heroes you feature.
The Germans hated crocodile crews. The horrific injuries and deaths of their comrades as the result of being targeted by crocodiles. This drove their maniacal fear of the weapon and the special treatment accorded the crews when captured.
You are absolutely correct...having served on tanks myself I can only summarise that the surviving crew member either hid..or when the vehicle lost its track dismounted BEFORE the attack on it (the crocodile) and was subsequently taken prisoner a little later by either SS troops or others...and to reiterate...and not condone...the statement made by John IS correct and the Germans (not just SS) dit met out special treatment to crocodile crews...look at its awful job...!
...and I am using my wife’s iPad.... My Grandfather was captured by the Germans and he said until his dying day that both sides committed dastardly deeds..but he was treated “correctly” (his words) by the Germans...
@@robertchubb1518 I know for a fact that Germans and Americans committed improper Acts from beating to killing soldiers after they surrendered. My dad had a sergeant in his tank platoon dad had a bad habit of taking prisoners back and shooting them and then coming back. My dad found out about it and told him he would put around from the 75 millimeter through his turret if he did it ever again. He stopped. I have no doubt my dad would have put the round through the turret. My dad had a very strong sense of right and wrong and what was combat and what was not combat related killings. My father spoke of the incident with a lot of disgust.
@@JohnRodriguesPhotographer All sides committed atrocities. And you and your dad are correct, it was not required to kill prisoners and was a disgusting act.
My father (Lt P.C. Dunkley) was 13 Troop C Squadron 141 Regt RAC (The Buffs) when he took it over from Lt Shearman as mentioned in this excellent narrative. He appears a few times in the book "Flame Thrower" by another troop leader in C Sqn called Andrew Wilson MC. His tank is on display at the D Day Museum at Portsmouth, complete with trailer and markings of a light blue circle (for C Squadron) with a "13" in the midle. All C Squadron Crocs had to have names beginning with S and his was named "Sandgate". I must get a copy of the 141 Regt RAC war diary and see what it says! Thanks for an extremely well-researched article! Nigel Dunkley.
I just saw this video and came back to say this incident is mentioned in that book. I have read it many times and is one of the best reads on what it was like to be in combat, not to mention in a flamethrower regiment. Friggen yes or friggen no. Friggen yes sir.
Who thumbs down your work? Hats off, head bowed.. Keep up your work so those who do 👎 can learn real history & what it took to give them the opportunity to slight your work! Keep your work as is, its bang on!..
Jelle K part of the reason for the murders at Wormhoudt according to a great book I read was that the Wehrmacht troops were taking the piss out of the SS (It was the Liebstandarte Hitlers supposed bodyguard regiment) for being held up by British troops when the SS had been bragging before about how they were better than the regular German army. If you ever get the chance to visit the massacre site I really recommend it. It’s a fitting tribute to the bravery of those who fought there in 1940
A moving and fitting tribute. You have done them proud. Delivered in the style we all love, which keeps us eagerly awaiting the next one. A few episodes featuring strange cases of this sort would be welcomed, if you need any ideas 👍😁
Fascinating video. I know from personal testimony’s of late Normandy veterans that I knew that the allies also executed German snipers when caught. A comment of “he cried for his mother while we stuck him with our bayonets “ springs to mind.
The crew member who survived the war, did he state that the whole crew were taken prisoner? Certainly the SS were no strangers to killing prisoners by all accounts, and both sides had little sympathy for flame thrower troops, but you wouldn't leave a witness to a war crime would you? Very odd. Also, victims of atrocities are usually found, no time in battle to hide presumably, so where were the bodies?
Yeah that's what I can't understand. Trooper Pepper must have said something about what happened. Should track down his family and see if he ever had a diary or said what happened that day
barryolaith Who knows what happened in this case but there are plenty of cases where there were survivors of war crimes including the most infamous ones. As far as having no time in battle to hide the bodies, they wouldn't have to have been directly engaged in combat throughout the period. Plenty of other examples where prisoners were made to dig their own graves before being killed, including after being marched off to the rear. The SS units in Normandy during this period, were notorious for killing prisoners including prior to this when a number of Canadians were murdered, including beaten and bayoneted to death and one being driven over back and forth by a tank. All in front of local French whiteness.
Thank god I'm not the only one asking. It sounds to me like Pepper had said something to his superiors when he got back and it's been hushed up for whatever reason (maybe a mistake on our side) could be why they were changed from MIA to "lined up and shot" but with no body recovery. I imagine that they wouldn't want to destroy morale hence the cover up?
Thank you for remembering these men and their story. It would be easy to focus on the bigger picture and lose sight of these individuals who played their part and paid the ultimate sacrifice.
My great uncle Guardsman Eric Mitchell no 2622849, was killed in operation Epsom on the 18th July 1944 while serving with the 2nd Battalion Grenadier Guards, he to was in a tank and his body was never recovered though his name is recorded on the Bayeux Memorial, we as a family have never known what happened to him.
Hi, Jerry, it can be really difficult when you only have limited records to use, my great grandfather was killed in WWI at the Battle of Bellewarde in 1915, one of the missing on the Ypres memorial, however from looking at accounts of the attack I can work out what happened, basically, the attack he took part in was decimated by German artillery fire which means being blown to bits and in some cases what soldiers call "Red Mist" so there will never be a body to find. With regards to your great uncle, I would try and look at the unit history as that can often give a clue, for example, the US Army used to recover brewed up tanks and patch them back up so they can be used again, this involved some poor sod having to get inside the tank and clean out any human remains, when the Sherman brewed up it was really intense fire, so much so that any bodies inside the tank would shrink considerably. If the tank was hit by a direct hit that exploded the ammunition that took the turret off then there may not have been not much to recover. The British and Allied graveyards have many "Unknown" graves and sometimes it is because there are just unidentified body parts in that grave
Absolutely correct. Flamethrower operators and snipers got killed after capture by all sides and it took serious restraint not to shoot them out of hand. The German practise of leaving stay-behind forces who sniped at Allied troops usually meant that they were rarely given quarter. These were often not dedicated snipers but random infantrymen who were given rifles with ZF telescopes and toldto slow down the enemy. they tended not to last long.
@@michaelbevan3285 And most tragically, the Germans (usually SS) tended to select young, inexperienced and naive young boys for that duty. The Nazis were so Goddamned despicable. I'm glad most of them got wasted during the war.
Very strange. Given that the whereabouts of the tank crew was clearly a matter of some interest; why is there no reference to Pepper's testimony? Surely he must have been asked about the incident at some point; assuming he actually survived the War. In fact, why did the subject not arise when he made his way back to the Allied lines after escaping German custody? It seems inconceivable that he knew nothing at all about the incident (of which he was a part) and even if that were the case, why would that not have been mentioned in the Regimental history? And if the SS had killed the other crew members, why was Pepper not also killed? If they died as a result of friendly fire; why not Pepper? And finally, why did the Germans not destroy the Crocodile? It seems odd that they simply left a de-tracked but otherwise intact vehicle for the British to put back into action. All very odd and highly unsatisfactory. That said, they certainly aren't the first group of soldiers to remain missing in action. It would be interesting to know if Pepper has any surviving family members. If he does, maybe they know something.
It does seem a very strange case. One can only assume that they are dead or they would have put in an appearance. If they were shot by the SS, I would have thought their bodies would be somewhere in the vicinity of the tank. The fact that the tank was recovered intact is also strange. If the SS captured the soldiers, why did they not destroy the tank to prevent it being repaired and used again against their own troops. Why would the SS march troops to their rear lines only to shoot them there, when they had not shot them in the heat of battle? If the tank had thrown a track and the four were unable to hold off constant attacks, they may have been forced to abandon the tank to try and escape on foot. If that were the case, why did they not destroy the tank to stop it falling into German hands?
@@woodybenjam Exactly. Too many people don't understand a battlefield. My supposition is the Waffen Schutzstaffel HQ unit executed these crewmen but they would have not taken the time to bury them if they had done so in that combat area. Instead, they captured the crew and executed them somewhere behind the lines. As to the surviving crew member... he could have become separated from his crew in the "fog of war". People must remember... when combat ensues... it's a loud enterprise and filled with smoke/explosions. Disorientation can easily occur after bailing out of immobilized armor. Too many "plausible" suppositions though... so who knows. We will never know the true story as I'm sure Trooper Pepper has passed on in life (by now).
@@rectitude6276 : I find it strange that there does not appear to be any statement from Trooper Pepper, the only one know to have survived the engagement with the SS.
Phillip Shepherd : I'm not sure if it is my previous comment you are addressing. If so, I suggest you read it again. I have said I found this story very strange, not the opposite.
@@StevenKeery Battlefields are strange places, and odd things happen. The bodies may not have been buried there because they weren’t killed there. They may have been handed off to other SS who executed them elsewhere. Just because they weren’t executed shortly after capture didn’t mean they were safe. All they needed to do was cross paths with the wrong SS trooper and he may have decided he was going to finish them. They may have initially escaped from the area the tank was left at and killed while trying to make their way back.There are endless scenarios that would explain what occurred. One thing that is certain is The 12th SS Hitlerjugend Panzer Division was made up with a core group of battle hardened combat veterans who learned their Kraft on the Eastern Front. The troops were thorough indoctrinated teenage Nazi’s. They had sold their souls to the Devil, and were all about doing his work. Now let’s throw Pervatin in the mix. That drug breaks down emotional barriers and makes them even more cold blooded killers. And allows them to withstand the effects of combat far better. As for the tank not being destroyed by the crew or the SS. Again there are endless scenarios. The crew would make their survival their number one priority. And the SS were probably more concerned with preparing to defend against another attack, or making a counter attack.
I have read the proper use of a flamethrower was to hose down the enemy position with unlit fuel. Then ignite it with a short lit burst. Apparently the hosed down position was often given the opportunity to surrender and would be well advised to do so. Yes very little sympathy for captured flamethrower crews.
Correct. If they encountered stiff resistance, the enemy position got flamed at once. If they thought an enemy unit could be persuaded to give up early, then they got washed with unlit fuel. If they continued to fight, then they got artillery and air strikes as well.
Great work bringing these gallant lads back to our memory if nor to life. No one is ever truly dead if remembered. lI believe the Germans tended to summarily shoot Crocodile crews.
Andrew Wilson was a journalist post War, He wrote for The Observer, London. Before he retired he wrote a brief account of his time in tanks, particularly his service in Normandy. In a British field hospital (I forget what he was there for) he heard a fellow soldier describe how his platoon had cleared an enemy position, They captured a handful of troops but suspected others were hiding nearby. So they shot some to make the others give away their position. Then they shot everyone. These were, if I recall the details correctly, all Polish. Polish and Russian soldiers were commonly the enemy around Caen. Another letter written by a veteran to the same paper described walking over hundreds of discarded German Army pay books at Falaise, most of them with Russian or Ukrainian names inside. I suspect the British did not delve too deeply into this shooting of prisoners for reasons that must be obvious.
Andrew Wilson's book is called "Flame Thrower". He was a friend of my father (Lt Peter Dunkley) who took over 13 Troop C Squadron 141 Regt RAC alongside Andrew's troop. My father and Andrew were sent to recce a canal with a R.E. Sgt one night in April 1944 and they bumped into a German patrol. The RE Sgt was killed, my father tried to rescue him but couldnt, but managed to recover the wounded Andrew Wilson. My father saved his life and the wounded Wilson was casevac'd to England. That is how he landed in hospital. He hated the smell of napalm he said. I can still remember him when I was a child shouting fire orders to he tank crew in his sleep. He was still fighting in Normandy in his dreams until he died. RIP them all. Nigel Dunkley.
Another great post. You should do one on Operation Loyton and the unofficial follow up and hunt for those that conducted the massacre on SAS / Resistance
The tank had a 5 man crew correct? Trooper Pepper was the only one who was captured and only one who survived. My questions is then, why did Trooper Pepper not know what happened to his crew? Didn't they leave the tank all at the same time? If not why? How do they know of the plight of the German soldier who was shot and died in the failed attempt to use the mine on the tank? Who knew these details and this story? Trooper Pepper? i think there is two possibilities: 1) Trooper Pepper panicked and left the tank. As he left and hid he seen the German with the mine get shot. he then left quickly only to run into regular German soldiers who captured him. They generally treated prisoners well. Hence he survived. 2) Trooper Pepper was sent out to assess the damage. He then seen the German with the mine get shot and fearing that he would be seen and killed fled the scene. He later ran into regular German troops who captured him. In either case the rest of the crew realized that a defense was not possible. So they opted to surrender. They were taken by the SS (known to shoot prisoners) to a rear area, aways away for questioning. After they were questioned they were shot. Or maybe they were killed during transport by friendly fire (artillery). all we know is that no bodies were found.
you probably have this already, but there is a full-length translation of the SS war correspondent account of this action which earned Emil Durr his postumous Knights Cross in Hubert Meyer's 2 vol unit history (The 12th SS Vol. 1, p364-8 in the Stackpole Books ed). It identifies the unit as an ant-tank company of SS Panzer regiment 26. Since it gives some specific names it could help narrow down the timeframes.
@@StevenKeery no, just that the tank was successfully knocked out. It does confirm the unit that encountered it, the date and rough location of the action, and based on that, it could narrow things down.
Trp Pepper was probably the lucky one of the group and got captured by German troop's who had no idea that he was part of a crocodile crew. The crew may have bailed out and rather than trying to surrender split up. Perhaps the missing men were picked up quickly by the S.S.and murdered.
Too many families have too many questions on the fate of their wartime loved ones. May they all rest in peace, regardless of the flag for which they fought.
What about Pepper? Surely he would have known if they had been lined up and shot? If that hadn't been lined up and shot right there and then, they will no doubt have been sent off to some other POW camp than Pepper was for whatever reason and likely killed getting caught trying to escape or just killed cause Nazi gonae do Nazi stuff? Nice one for knowing which flags to use and at what time. It's the tiny wee details like that which the majority of folk will miss that help to make this channel as great as it is. Definitely my favourite channel for this stuff on TH-cam. Could you please do Goose Green?
I have the book "Flamethrower" by Andrew Wilson, a very good read written in the 3rd person, Wilson refers to himself by his surname. I believe he says Lt Harvey was from Argentina. I shall read the book again.
Huh. My great uncle passed away around this time, not necessarily this engagement. He was apart of the Canadian 3rd infantry division, 1st battalion, Canadian Scottish battalion. He passed away June 08, 1944.
hey Liveth for evermore, would you be interested in doing a video on world war 2, Sir david sterling and paddy mayne !? really like the content keep it up cheers
My Grandfather, Harry Herbert, drove a Churchill at Hill 112. 107th Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps. I know at some point he was driving a Crocodile as he always said how much he hated using the flamethrower on the enemy, but I don't know if he was in a Crocodile or a regular Churchill at the time. His tank got hit by an AT gun and killed the entire crew other than him.
It is reasonably well documented that both sides summarily shot crews of flame throwers. Doesn't make it right, but that is the nature of war. It's a brutalising experience, just pleased that all mine are behind me. Now I just have old age to contend with.. But I still think of all those I served with who weren't so lucky, I'll never forget them, I see their faces so young, lives that were never lived. RIP
Did anyone think to ask Trooper G. Pepper were his mates were? All of this might be a mystery to you and I, but I have strong hunch Pepper knows EXACTLY what happened to them, irregardless of the official record! It's not a mystery to him. I found it a little bit annoying that this point wasn't discussed in the video, at least as a footnote - because it is so obvious! I mean, if we found one lone survivor of a submarine floating in the ocean, one of the very first questions we'd ask is, "Where is everyone else?" And I'm willing to bet the survivor would have a satisfactory answer.
The flame thrower has always been hated by all sides to different degrees, but the crocodile was the epitome of the weapons development until the introduction of napalm. The hatred of it is at about the same level as that of the sniper. Both were considered to be personal and it's operator a murderer with the appropriate treatment if caught. Chances are that you will never find them the SS covered there tracks pretty well towards the end. And the fact that one actually survived means they were probably delt with separately.
My father served with the flamethrowers. I have a book called The Playboys, an unofficial history of the advance from Normandy to berlin. My father, George Wear is mentioned by name
@@Peoples_Republic_of_Devonshire But most of the World would know them as Tankers. There is no point in the Narrator saying "Tankies" or "Bucket Heads" or anything else for that matter if the majority of people who are watching don't know what he is talking about.
My thoughts are these: the crew bailed from the tank attempting to get back to friendly units. The crew were seperated with all of the tankers but Perry being captured by the SS. Perry was captured by another unit. Its possible that he managed to hide from some time and later in confusion he went toward enemy lines. Perry's guilt of being a sole survivor likely stopped him from speaking about the events. Its possible that the account of the rest of the tank crew being shot comes from a French civilian either from the village or from wherever they were taken behind the lines.
This is by far the most likely scenario, that Tpr Perry evaded immediate capture by the SS, but fell into the hands of a more 'friendly' German unit close by. It would appear he was resourceful enough to escape later, and survivor guilt would explain why he apparently remained tight lipped about the fate of the rest of the crew, whose execution he may have even witnessed from a hiding place.
I agree. What you have outlined is most likely - Pepper escaped and was captured elsewhere away from the dreaded Crocodile; the others were shot out of hand after being taken from the tank. The cover up is simply we Allies also took few prisoners in those battles. Sometimes its better not to dig too deeply when there is nothing to be gained.
Lloyd Scott : Since you seem familiar with the German side of this episode, is there any indication in German records as to what happened on that day? Either written or anecdotal from former SS troops.
@@StevenKeery the SS did hate the Crocodile and its crew members so it wouldnt supprise me that they were shot. However the accounts of the Germans vs the British don't match. The author Ian Dalglish is quoted in this video on the subject, in his book about Epsom this engagement is spoken of in more detail than this video let's on. The Germans claim that the magnetic limit mine was reattached before it exploded mortally wounding Durr and causing the Churchill to brew up. That would have meant there was no remains of the crew to be found. If the one lad got out fast enough that would explain why he wasn't aware of the others himself, if they were shot why wasn't he? If he's a prisoner why not with his crew? The limpet mine would have made a very small hole so it would appear as if there was no damage at first glance. I think the most likely solution to this is they made a mistake as to the condition of the tank or were talking about another Churchill and the crew died after being brewed up. The battle didn't last too long in this area, as Epsom progressed we took hold and there were no graves found, the locals didn't find graves and the SS weren't really in the habit of the burial of our lads that close to the front lines. That's my view anyway. I am writing a book about the area currently so I have looked into this quite a bit.
@@VonBlitzkrieg : I'm not sure that would be a valid idea. There are not so many in a British squadron of tanks to cause confusion between one that has been destroyed and one mildly damaged but easily repairable. A simple radio roll call or ID marking on the tank would clarify. I would assume it is the tank Commander who gives the order to abandon the tank. If so all the crew would be aware of the reason why this was felt necessary. If Trooper Pepper survived, he must have known why the order was given to abandon the tank. If any of them had died in the tank, there would be visible evidence of such.
My Dad was part of 43rd Wessex division, he was in the 4/5th Dorset's, I think that's correct, he has been gone for more than 20 years now but I know he went ashore at Normandy on D+6 , I believe he fought at Hill 112, I know he crossed the Rhine in a DUKW I also think he fought in Holland but I maybe wrong on that one.
they just of well could have died say in a allied air raid while they were being transported to the a pow camp. such is the nature of war. And the allied air raids could be really devastating to anything near one.
Didnt some german soilders take a dim view of Flamethrower users, i might be wrong, but isnt there accounts of flamethrower users being shot instead of taken as pows, so it could still be possible that they were infact taken and then executed later, before any offical documention of there status as being such, as for why they didnt shot all them, They only needed one to interagate for information.
Anyone ever done a ground Xray of the farm where they were lined up and shot? I bet their bodies are in the farm grounds, probably within 500 meters of where they were supposedly lined up and shot.
Another great video. You do have trouble with pronunciation that I happily ignore but getting a guy's name wrong is a bit much. Please just get someone to approve your narrative before you post. Cyril was such a common English name of the time.
Did nobody bother to ask trooper. Pepper , as to the what had happened ? kind of odd nobody said " u dont by chance know what happened to the 4 other blokes that where with u , do you? "
In the confusion of war a lot of things are asked and done but the variables aren't documented minutely enough . Who knows the documents we are after may have been damaged for instance during the movement of Regiment HQ's ( just throwing that in )
At the time it was not unusual for flame thrower operators no to be taken taken prisoner even if they tried surrendering or even killed afterward surrendering. Hiding such an incident would not be unusual for soldiers that believed the enemy would eventually advance and take the position. My sister in-laws uncle was last seen injured by a bridge at Normandy. Nothing further is known.
I wouldn't be surprised if there bodies aren't lying near the farm in an old trench. It shouldn't be difficult to locate them with the current technology we have.
I've been reading a lot of ww2 books US British and German. A German said all crocodile crews were shot as they thought it immoral. And one German soldier said he saw a British crocodile crew being executed after surrendering. Now I'm not sure what book it was and I wish I'd seen this video first. U will try and find the book and information. Prob spearhead as it tells stories from all sides, but could be von lucks or Tom Closes. From what was told I'd say they were executed after having things done to them so buried to hide what was done. But many things were wrong in the war, soldiers put as dead came home and so on. If a soldier said he saw them shot then it could be true as records can be wrong.
I have a couple of questions regards to this. Germans, even the SS were anal about keeping war records. Surely they would have reported in their war diary that they had engaged and defeated a British tank. They may not have admitted what they did to the crew other than KIA. But it strikes me that this would be a viable primary source of information on the event. Further it is likely that the records were taken by the British if the infantry later took Le Perron. I would also note that it was common for the Germans to kill crocodile crews if they captured them, because of the significant fear that flame throwers cause and the implicated injury that could occur.
Why is a tank attached to the New Zealanders named after a City in Canada ? WHY IS THAT SAME TANK SITTING OUTSIDE OF THE CALGARY AMOURY IN CANADA? I must know !
From pages 59-60 of George Mann's book "Flame Thrower" (1974) in regards to Lieutenant Harvey and crew members: "The armoured cars had met an advancing S.S. division. There had been a battle, and after many days the SS had been pushed back to a ridge a few miles inland… two days before Harvey had gone in with an attack and lost a track as he milled about on the objective. It was a simple repair. But as he did it a counter-attack came in and the rest of the squadron was forced to fall back. Now, that morning, the squadron had helped to retake the place. They found Harvey’s tank and the tools laid out on the ground around it. Harvey and his crew had been lined up against a farmhouse wall and shot… would they shoot all captured Crocodile crews from now on?”
Explain how Pepper got to escape from a POW camp then? The more and more I read into this, its looking like you are quoting a book that had the "official story" to not mess with the troops morale. Its looking more and more that when Pepper made it back he has told his superiors that it had been a friendly fire incident that had killed these guys, but with it being the early days after d-day they will have been trying to keep morale as high as possible and lined up and shot by the SS will have been a better story than telling the truth (at that time anyway). I'm guessing that the official line just was never corrected by at least the 70's and is now lost for good.
@@dylanmilne6683 there's no evidence that he ran, and that's a hefty accusation to make of a soldier. Could be any number of a hundred reasons why he could have been seperated
@@Peoples_Republic_of_Devonshire there's evidence that he took an action or was in circumstances which his other crew members were not. It's possible that he was helpless to see his comrades be captured yet was still feeling guilty by not staying with them as a crew. At no point I am i saying Pepper is a coward.
Although it would be worth for the relatives to provide closure, it would be now down to scouring the area with metal detectors to see if any they're buried in a shallow grave near to the village.
Very interesting. I think that because Trooper Pepper was captured, it would be very unlikely that the others would have been killed after capture unless Pepper was the only one to escape to be recaptured later by another unit; but then surely he would have seen what happened to the others and reported the war crime after he met back up with the British in April 1945. Also if they did execute them, why leave a wintess? If they were going to spare anyone, surely it would have been the officer as he would have had the most information. Also Trooper Pepper would certainly have told everyone about this when he was liberated in 1945. As they were so close to a German HQ, they were probably taken there for interogation before being moved away from the front. I think it's probably more likely that they were captured and then sent to a POW camp after interrogation. Maybe on the way there, the train or convoy they were on was attacked by allied fighter bombers and they were all killed and the records on them were lost or burnt at the end of the war or in allied fire Bombing. Maybe Trooper Pepper had got separated or attempted to escape and was recaptured so he ended up on a different train or in a different convoy so didn't know what happened to the others. Possibly they were captured and all apart from Trooper Pepper managed to escape as they were being taken to the German rear. Trooper Pepper was then sent to a POW camp. The others either attacked or were found by another German unit and in the ensuing firefight they all were killed and either left as the German unit moved on to the front or were buried in an unmarked grave. Also as there is no evidence of them being murdered, instead of people trying to fit the evidence to that narrative, it would perhaps be more useful if they just looked for other things that happened to them and any information about the crew that is still out there, maybe in the German archives of POWs captured by the 12th SS Hitlerjugend. Only if tangable evidence that can be confirmed presents itself that they were murdered should it be said that they were murdered. What is also odd is that why would the Germans have left an essentially working Churchill there? All it would need would be to have some of its spare tracks used to fix the broken tracks and they could have encorporated it into their defences. Even if imobalised it could still have the turret turned to use against the British. There are many pictures of captured Churchills being used by the Germans. They could have even got the crew to repair the tracks and then stuck the driver inside with 2 German infantry and have him drive back to a better position in the rear to get the Churchill used by a Panzer unit of the 12th SS. Something similar was done with about 15 captured Shermans at Herlisheim during the Battle of the Bulge in 1945.
I have had a thought about this, and maybe it is not as sinister as it seems, maybe the rest of the crew were captured and were loaded onto the back of a truck to be processed before being taken to a POW camp, maybe that truck was attacked by Allied aircraft with rockets and there wasn't much left after the truck was blown to pieces
That's a brilliant idea. Jeremy Moore's raid is considered one of the perfect commando raids. He would later become a Major General and Commander Land Forces in the Falklands War
Flame thrower tank crews and flame thrower operators would stand little chance of surviving if captured , all sides gave them short shrift due to the horrific nature of the weapons.
The SS will know where these boys are, so sad but their bodies must be close by as the SS wouldn't have waited to execute them but why spare 1? Strange
So many scenarios about what could have happened. The SS could have taken them prisoners and they could have been killed by shelling or air raid. I know SS are not afraid of killing prisoners and usually flame throwers are not taken alive. But why would Pepper would have been spared. So I am more about à friendly fire kill, by a bomb, later on that day.
Weren't most flame troops (on both sides, Axis and Allies, on the pacific and European theatres) that were captured usually tortured and executed? Just because of the brutal nature of the weapons they were using? Wouldn't that be the most plausible reason they were never found? And the last member who was taken POW was likely done for information, and not killing him being a mercy for information provided? It seems to me that the guy who survived likely did so by selling out his own people by giving up information, and probably will never admit to it because of the humiliation and lives lost to the allies the he himself had caused. Why is this not mentioned?
Execution does make sense, the SS were known to being unforgiving soldiers even to their fellow Wehrmacht soldiers. However this raises the question as to why Trooper G. Penny wasn't executed along with them.
either blown to peices and unrecoverable, or prisoners of war and burnt the same way the crocodile crew did to them imo, OR the story was true and shot by a barn in summery executions, just because they couldnt be found body wise, does not mean the claims were untrue
It's pretty obvious as to what happened. The Germans murdered them after they surrendered and almost certainly buried the bodies in unmarked graves so as to hide evidence of war crimes. As an aside, @3:25, the soldiers depicted are Finnish. They are passing the burnt out hulk of a Soviet tank. The soldier at the forefront has a Finnish Suomi KP/-31submachine gun slung over his shoulder
Hi everyone,
I've had a few questions regarding Trooper Pepper and whether he provided any statements; in my 4 years of researching this incident, I haven't come across any testimonies given by Trooper Pepper relating to either how he became a Prisoner of War or what happened to the other crewmen. The most obvious source would've been the 141st Regimental History published in 1951, but there are none. Another source would've been an interview taken during a post-war War Crimes investigation, however, as mentioned in the video, there are no publicly known War Crimes files held by the National Archives. It is unfortunate, as I'm certain that any recollection Trooper Pepper had on the incident, would have answered a lot of questions, or, at the very least, provided some pointers as to what happened.
And, as has rightly been pointed out, the Infantry shown carrying the Panzerfausts at 3:28, are Finnish and not German. A huge thanks to 'Military Compilation' for correcting this and providing a lot of details regarding the identities of those pictured and the background to the photo.
Thanks,
LfE
Hey, the Nairobi SAS operator is retired and now has an Instagram page. His name is Christian Craighead, you should check it out.
Nice video and very informative and very entertaining and very satisfaction.
Thanks for clearing that up about Pepper👍
I'm definitely going with it being a friendly fire incident that was turned into a "lined up and shot by the SS" story to not destroy morale in the early days after d-day. Which has never been corrected simply due to being overlooked in the madness of the last days of the war.
The simple fact that there's no official account from Pepper (he must've given one) leads me to believe that.
I presume Pepper is now deceased however I wonder if he and his family could be traced in the hope that he shared his story with family
Do u have anything on the 2nd commando regiment from Australia?
Little mistake. Minute 3:28, the soldiers are Finnish. June 30th, 1944. From left to right, panssarijääkäri Eino Heikkila, sergeant Kalle Niemelä and sergeant Heino Nikulassi, from Infantry Regiment JR 12, 2nd Division, pass a Soviet T-34 tank destroyed by a Stug III assault-gun from Sturmgeschütz-Brigade 303 (commanded by Unteroffizier Willy Obdeldobel) on the Imatra Road, Tali-Ihantala.
Niemelä and Nikulassi are carrying Panzerfausts on their shoulders. Nikulassi also has a Suomi KP-31 SMG. He was killed the following day.
Thanks for the correction! That is completely my mistake; the caption I read labelled them as German Infantry at Kursk, July 1943. Thanks again for correcting this, especially with the level of detail you have provided - that is very much appreciated
@@livethforevermore No problem! Amazing video and keep up the great work 👍💪
200% wholesome exchange
Awesome detail.
Thanks, My eyes were drawn to the remains of the tank - I couldn't id it (now I know why).
@@graemesydney38 thanks! I still remember the talk with a Finnish historian, he clearly helped me with the context of the photo (I asked him because I had the colourised version by Marina Amaral, look for it, the work done there is amazing). Continuation war is really interesting.
i love watching these videos i could watch for hours on end
Have done. Fully recommend. They never get old either.
I was sad after binge watching all his vids one day and realizing I’d have to wait for more.
@@AK-ky3ou hmm i know that feeling when i ask people to sub but they dont even look
Same
Liveth for Evermore - I have to say I greatly enjoy your productions. They are detailed and the reverence and respect of which you outline the sacrifice the men involved is nothing short of incredible. Thank you sir for bringing these stories to the masses, whom I can only hope appreciate the phenomenal effort you put into these presentations and the valiant heroes you feature.
What happened to the men? A ghost tank. Great video as always. RIP to those men who gave their lives, but never returned. Will always be remembered ❤️
The Germans hated crocodile crews. The horrific injuries and deaths of their comrades as the result of being targeted by crocodiles. This drove their maniacal fear of the weapon and the special treatment accorded the crews when captured.
You are absolutely correct...having served on tanks myself I can only summarise that the surviving crew member either hid..or when the vehicle lost its track dismounted BEFORE the attack on it (the crocodile) and was subsequently taken prisoner a little later by either SS troops or others...and to reiterate...and not condone...the statement made by John IS correct and the Germans (not just SS) dit met out special treatment to crocodile crews...look at its awful job...!
...and I am using my wife’s iPad....
My Grandfather was captured by the Germans and he said until his dying day that both sides committed dastardly deeds..but he was treated “correctly” (his words) by the Germans...
@@robertchubb1518 I know for a fact that Germans and Americans committed improper Acts from beating to killing soldiers after they surrendered. My dad had a sergeant in his tank platoon dad had a bad habit of taking prisoners back and shooting them and then coming back. My dad found out about it and told him he would put around from the 75 millimeter through his turret if he did it ever again. He stopped. I have no doubt my dad would have put the round through the turret. My dad had a very strong sense of right and wrong and what was combat and what was not combat related killings. My father spoke of the incident with a lot of disgust.
@@JohnRodriguesPhotographer All sides committed atrocities. And you and your dad are correct, it was not required to kill prisoners and was a disgusting act.
@@BatMan-xr8gg yup, there is no such thing as a 'good' war. That is the thing people say to make it seem okay because they want to do more war.
My father (Lt P.C. Dunkley) was 13 Troop C Squadron 141 Regt RAC (The Buffs) when he took it over from Lt Shearman as mentioned in this excellent narrative. He appears a few times in the book "Flame Thrower" by another troop leader in C Sqn called Andrew Wilson MC. His tank is on display at the D Day Museum at Portsmouth, complete with trailer and markings of a light blue circle (for C Squadron) with a "13" in the midle. All C Squadron Crocs had to have names beginning with S and his was named "Sandgate". I must get a copy of the 141 Regt RAC war diary and see what it says! Thanks for an extremely well-researched article! Nigel Dunkley.
I just saw this video and came back to say this incident is mentioned in that book. I have read it many times and is one of the best reads on what it was like to be in combat, not to mention in a flamethrower regiment. Friggen yes or friggen no. Friggen yes sir.
Who thumbs down your work?
Hats off, head bowed..
Keep up your work so those who do 👎 can learn real history & what it took to give them the opportunity to slight your work!
Keep your work as is, its bang on!..
This channel deserves so much!
It certainly stands to reason that they were summarily executed. Combine the hatred of flamethrowers in war with the SS and that's a recipe for you.
I was thinking the same thing, the Wormhoudt massacre stands to show what the SS was capable of doing to captured allied troops.
Why did Pepper survive and the rest go MIA though? And why is there no account from him? If anything happened then he's the guy yo ask.
Why didn't they kill Pepper at the same time?
@@johnwales4214 illuminati sh*t
Jelle K part of the reason for the murders at Wormhoudt according to a great book I read was that the Wehrmacht troops were taking the piss out of the SS (It was the Liebstandarte Hitlers supposed bodyguard regiment) for being held up by British troops when the SS had been bragging before about how they were better than the regular German army.
If you ever get the chance to visit the massacre site I really recommend it. It’s a fitting tribute to the bravery of those who fought there in 1940
A moving and fitting tribute. You have done them proud. Delivered in the style we all love, which keeps us eagerly awaiting the next one. A few episodes featuring strange cases of this sort would be welcomed, if you need any ideas 👍😁
Fascinating video. I know from personal testimony’s of late Normandy veterans that I knew that the allies also executed German snipers when caught. A comment of “he cried for his mother while we stuck him with our bayonets “ springs to mind.
always great to see a new update on this channel!
You do sterling work, LFE...thank you.
Your videos are just so intresting. Idk how to really explain it but i love your vids.
It’s the voice
The crew member who survived the war, did he state that the whole crew were taken prisoner? Certainly the SS were no strangers to killing prisoners by all accounts, and both sides had little sympathy for flame thrower troops, but you wouldn't leave a witness to a war crime would you? Very odd. Also, victims of atrocities are usually found, no time in battle to hide presumably, so where were the bodies?
Yeah that's what I can't understand. Trooper Pepper must have said something about what happened. Should track down his family and see if he ever had a diary or said what happened that day
Surely there's some important info from Trooper Pepper that was left out of this video
Yeah, that's what I thought as well - what did sole survivor had to say about what happened?
barryolaith Who knows what happened in this case but there are plenty of cases where there were survivors of war crimes including the most infamous ones. As far as having no time in battle to hide the bodies, they wouldn't have to have been directly engaged in combat throughout the period. Plenty of other examples where prisoners were made to dig their own graves before being killed, including after being marched off to the rear.
The SS units in Normandy during this period, were notorious for killing prisoners including prior to this when a number of Canadians were murdered, including beaten and bayoneted to death and one being driven over back and forth by a tank. All in front of local French whiteness.
Thank god I'm not the only one asking. It sounds to me like Pepper had said something to his superiors when he got back and it's been hushed up for whatever reason (maybe a mistake on our side) could be why they were changed from MIA to "lined up and shot" but with no body recovery.
I imagine that they wouldn't want to destroy morale hence the cover up?
Great presentation and detailed briefing. Quality channel.🎩♠️♠️♠️
Thank you for remembering these men and their story. It would be easy to focus on the bigger picture and lose sight of these individuals who played their part and paid the ultimate sacrifice.
Keep up the good work, good content
Great video once again, thank you. What heavy losses for a piddly village.
_Great_ episode. Well done.
Another great video as always but i would love to see you do a video detailing the battle of Mirbat.
Great Vidoe, just a small note I think the photo on 3:25 are Finish infantry and not german
Please, keep making these informative videos
Great channel.
My great uncle Guardsman Eric Mitchell no 2622849, was killed in operation Epsom on the 18th July 1944 while serving with the 2nd Battalion Grenadier Guards, he to was in a tank and his body was never recovered though his name is recorded on the Bayeux Memorial, we as a family have never known what happened to him.
Hi, Jerry, it can be really difficult when you only have limited records to use, my great grandfather was killed in WWI at the Battle of Bellewarde in 1915, one of the missing on the Ypres memorial, however from looking at accounts of the attack I can work out what happened, basically, the attack he took part in was decimated by German artillery fire which means being blown to bits and in some cases what soldiers call "Red Mist" so there will never be a body to find. With regards to your great uncle, I would try and look at the unit history as that can often give a clue, for example, the US Army used to recover brewed up tanks and patch them back up so they can be used again, this involved some poor sod having to get inside the tank and clean out any human remains, when the Sherman brewed up it was really intense fire, so much so that any bodies inside the tank would shrink considerably. If the tank was hit by a direct hit that exploded the ammunition that took the turret off then there may not have been not much to recover. The British and Allied graveyards have many "Unknown" graves and sometimes it is because there are just unidentified body parts in that grave
Snipers and flamethrowermen have often bore the brunt of opposing soldiers anger. Would not surprise me if they'd been murdered post capture.
You used the correct term. Shooting prisoners is not execution, it is murder.
Absolutely correct. Flamethrower operators and snipers got killed after capture by all sides and it took serious restraint not to shoot them out of hand. The German practise of leaving stay-behind forces who sniped at Allied troops usually meant that they were rarely given quarter. These were often not dedicated snipers but random infantrymen who were given rifles with ZF telescopes and toldto slow down the enemy. they tended not to last long.
@@michaelbevan3285 And most tragically, the Germans (usually SS) tended to select young, inexperienced and naive young boys for that duty. The Nazis were so Goddamned despicable. I'm glad most of them got wasted during the war.
Cyril = "Sirrill" not "Syerrill" It was a common name.
Ghost Tank. A nice change of pace
Very strange. Given that the whereabouts of the tank crew was clearly a matter of some interest; why is there no reference to Pepper's testimony? Surely he must have been asked about the incident at some point; assuming he actually survived the War. In fact, why did the subject not arise when he made his way back to the Allied lines after escaping German custody? It seems inconceivable that he knew nothing at all about the incident (of which he was a part) and even if that were the case, why would that not have been mentioned in the Regimental history? And if the SS had killed the other crew members, why was Pepper not also killed? If they died as a result of friendly fire; why not Pepper? And finally, why did the Germans not destroy the Crocodile? It seems odd that they simply left a de-tracked but otherwise intact vehicle for the British to put back into action. All very odd and highly unsatisfactory. That said, they certainly aren't the first group of soldiers to remain missing in action.
It would be interesting to know if Pepper has any surviving family members. If he does, maybe they know something.
Surely that is not how you pronounce Cyril?
It does seem a very strange case. One can only assume that they are dead or they would have put in an appearance.
If they were shot by the SS, I would have thought their bodies would be somewhere in the vicinity of the tank.
The fact that the tank was recovered intact is also strange. If the SS captured the soldiers, why did they not destroy the tank to prevent it being repaired and used again against their own troops.
Why would the SS march troops to their rear lines only to shoot them there, when they had not shot them in the heat of battle?
If the tank had thrown a track and the four were unable to hold off constant attacks, they may have been forced to abandon the tank to try and escape on foot.
If that were the case, why did they not destroy the tank to stop it falling into German hands?
@@woodybenjam Exactly. Too many people don't understand a battlefield. My supposition is the Waffen Schutzstaffel HQ unit executed these crewmen but they would have not taken the time to bury them if they had done so in that combat area. Instead, they captured the crew and executed them somewhere behind the lines. As to the surviving crew member... he could have become separated from his crew in the "fog of war". People must remember... when combat ensues... it's a loud enterprise and filled with smoke/explosions. Disorientation can easily occur after bailing out of immobilized armor. Too many "plausible" suppositions though... so who knows. We will never know the true story as I'm sure Trooper Pepper has passed on in life (by now).
@@rectitude6276 : I find it strange that there does not appear to be any statement from Trooper Pepper, the only one know to have survived the engagement with the SS.
Phillip Shepherd : I'm not sure if it is my previous comment you are addressing. If so, I suggest you read it again. I have said I found this story very strange, not the opposite.
You raised excellent points. I believe sometimes in the heat of battle, mistakes will be made.
@@StevenKeery Battlefields are strange places, and odd things happen.
The bodies may not have been buried there because they weren’t killed there. They may have been handed off to other SS who executed them elsewhere. Just because they weren’t executed shortly after capture didn’t mean they were safe. All they needed to do was cross paths with the wrong SS trooper and he may have decided he was going to finish them. They may have initially escaped from the area the tank was left at and killed while trying to make their way back.There are endless scenarios that would explain what occurred.
One thing that is certain is The 12th SS Hitlerjugend Panzer Division was made up with a core group of battle hardened combat veterans who learned their Kraft on the Eastern Front. The troops were thorough indoctrinated teenage Nazi’s. They had sold their souls to the Devil, and were all about doing his work. Now let’s throw Pervatin in the mix. That drug breaks down emotional barriers and makes them even more cold blooded killers. And allows them to withstand the effects of combat far better.
As for the tank not being destroyed by the crew or the SS. Again there are endless scenarios. The crew would make their survival their number one priority. And the SS were probably more concerned with preparing to defend against another attack, or making a counter attack.
I have read the proper use of a flamethrower was to hose down the enemy position with unlit fuel. Then ignite it with a short lit burst. Apparently the hosed down position was often given the opportunity to surrender and would be well advised to do so. Yes very little sympathy for captured flamethrower crews.
Correct. If they encountered stiff resistance, the enemy position got flamed at once. If they thought an enemy unit could be persuaded to give up early, then they got washed with unlit fuel. If they continued to fight, then they got artillery and air strikes as well.
I like your video, I watched every video.
Great work bringing these gallant lads back to our memory if nor to life. No one is ever truly dead if remembered. lI believe the Germans tended to summarily shoot Crocodile crews.
Andrew Wilson was a journalist post War, He wrote for The Observer, London. Before he retired he wrote a brief account of his time in tanks, particularly his service in Normandy. In a British field hospital (I forget what he was there for) he heard a fellow soldier describe how his platoon had cleared an enemy position, They captured a handful of troops but suspected others were hiding nearby. So they shot some to make the others give away their position. Then they shot everyone. These were, if I recall the details correctly, all Polish. Polish and Russian soldiers were commonly the enemy around Caen. Another letter written by a veteran to the same paper described walking over hundreds of discarded German Army pay books at Falaise, most of them with Russian or Ukrainian names inside. I suspect the British did not delve too deeply into this shooting of prisoners for reasons that must be obvious.
Andrew Wilson's book is called "Flame Thrower". He was a friend of my father (Lt Peter Dunkley) who took over 13 Troop C Squadron 141 Regt RAC alongside Andrew's troop. My father and Andrew were sent to recce a canal with a R.E. Sgt one night in April 1944 and they bumped into a German patrol. The RE Sgt was killed, my father tried to rescue him but couldnt, but managed to recover the wounded Andrew Wilson. My father saved his life and the wounded Wilson was casevac'd to England. That is how he landed in hospital. He hated the smell of napalm he said. I can still remember him when I was a child shouting fire orders to he tank crew in his sleep. He was still fighting in Normandy in his dreams until he died. RIP them all. Nigel Dunkley.
Another great post. You should do one on Operation Loyton and the unofficial follow up and hunt for those that conducted the massacre on SAS / Resistance
I have watched 8 adds by re opening the vid a couple hours in between. It's all I can do to support you apart from subscribing.
The tank had a 5 man crew correct? Trooper Pepper was the only one who was captured and only one who survived. My questions is then, why did Trooper Pepper not know what happened to his crew? Didn't they leave the tank all at the same time? If not why? How do they know of the plight of the German soldier who was shot and died in the failed attempt to use the mine on the tank? Who knew these details and this story? Trooper Pepper?
i think there is two possibilities:
1) Trooper Pepper panicked and left the tank. As he left and hid he seen the German with the mine get shot. he then left quickly only to run into regular German soldiers who captured him. They generally treated prisoners well. Hence he survived.
2) Trooper Pepper was sent out to assess the damage. He then seen the German with the mine get shot and fearing that he would be seen and killed fled the scene. He later ran into regular German troops who captured him.
In either case the rest of the crew realized that a defense was not possible. So they opted to surrender. They were taken by the SS (known to shoot prisoners) to a rear area, aways away for questioning. After they were questioned they were shot. Or maybe they were killed during transport by friendly fire (artillery). all we know is that no bodies were found.
Can you do a video on Leo Major?
you probably have this already, but there is a full-length translation of the SS war correspondent account of this action which earned Emil Durr his postumous Knights Cross in Hubert Meyer's 2 vol unit history (The 12th SS Vol. 1, p364-8 in the Stackpole Books ed). It identifies the unit as an ant-tank company of SS Panzer regiment 26. Since it gives some specific names it could help narrow down the timeframes.
Thorwulfsson: Does the German account state what happened to these missing men?
@@StevenKeery no, just that the tank was successfully knocked out. It does confirm the unit that encountered it, the date and rough location of the action, and based on that, it could narrow things down.
@@mrg315 : Interesting, thank you for bringing it up. I wonder if any of those German troops are alive, or left diaries.
Trp Pepper was probably the lucky one of the group and got captured by German troop's who had no idea that he was part of a crocodile crew. The crew may have bailed out and rather than trying to surrender split up. Perhaps the missing men were picked up quickly by the S.S.and murdered.
Too many families have too many questions on the fate of their wartime loved ones. May they all rest in peace, regardless of the flag for which they fought.
What about Pepper?
Surely he would have known if they had been lined up and shot?
If that hadn't been lined up and shot right there and then, they will no doubt have been sent off to some other POW camp than Pepper was for whatever reason and likely killed getting caught trying to escape or just killed cause Nazi gonae do Nazi stuff?
Nice one for knowing which flags to use and at what time. It's the tiny wee details like that which the majority of folk will miss that help to make this channel as great as it is.
Definitely my favourite channel for this stuff on TH-cam.
Could you please do Goose Green?
Hey LFE,
could you do a video on the SAF 44?
I have the book "Flamethrower" by Andrew Wilson, a very good read written in the 3rd person, Wilson refers to himself by his surname. I believe he says Lt Harvey was from Argentina. I shall read the book again.
Huh. My great uncle passed away around this time, not necessarily this engagement. He was apart of the Canadian 3rd infantry division, 1st battalion, Canadian Scottish battalion. He passed away June 08, 1944.
hey Liveth for evermore, would you be interested in doing a video on world war 2, Sir david sterling and paddy mayne !? really like the content keep it up cheers
Lt Norman remains in Normandy.
Rip
Excellent research - I've certainly heard of Crews being killed before... I will have a look for the reference...
My Grandfather, Harry Herbert, drove a Churchill at Hill 112. 107th Regiment, Royal Armoured Corps. I know at some point he was driving a Crocodile as he always said how much he hated using the flamethrower on the enemy, but I don't know if he was in a Crocodile or a regular Churchill at the time.
His tank got hit by an AT gun and killed the entire crew other than him.
It is reasonably well documented that both sides summarily shot crews of flame throwers. Doesn't make it right, but that is the nature of war. It's a brutalising experience, just pleased that all mine are behind me. Now I just have old age to contend with.. But I still think of all those I served with who weren't so lucky, I'll never forget them, I see their faces so young, lives that were never lived. RIP
Did anyone think to ask Trooper G. Pepper were his mates were? All of this might be a mystery to you and I, but I have strong hunch Pepper knows EXACTLY what happened to them, irregardless of the official record! It's not a mystery to him.
I found it a little bit annoying that this point wasn't discussed in the video, at least as a footnote - because it is so obvious! I mean, if we found one lone survivor of a submarine floating in the ocean, one of the very first questions we'd ask is, "Where is everyone else?" And I'm willing to bet the survivor would have a satisfactory answer.
After the Germans saw one of their own killed, I think these brave men's fate was not good. Excellent Video!
Have you tried the Canadian National Archives ? They have plenty info on the SS War Crimes around Carpiquet.
3:27 those are finish soldiers
The flame thrower has always been hated by all sides to different degrees, but the crocodile was the epitome of the weapons development until the introduction of napalm. The hatred of it is at about the same level as that of the sniper. Both were considered to be personal and it's operator a murderer with the appropriate treatment if caught. Chances are that you will never find them the SS covered there tracks pretty well towards the end. And the fact that one actually survived means they were probably delt with separately.
My father served with the flamethrowers. I have a book called The Playboys, an unofficial history of the advance from Normandy to berlin. My father, George Wear is mentioned by name
British (and commonwealth) Tank crews are known as "TANKIES" not "TANKERS". Can we get it right please?
Where i come from they are known as Tankers no Tankies. Can you get it right please.
Yep...even we Australians refer to them as “Tankies or Bucketheads”
In Britain and Australia they're called Tankies
@@woodybenjam I'm guessing you're a yank?
@@Peoples_Republic_of_Devonshire But most of the World would know them as Tankers. There is no point in the Narrator saying "Tankies" or "Bucket Heads" or anything else for that matter if the majority of people who are watching don't know what he is talking about.
Lindybeige calsl the Crocodile "The Most Effective Waepon in WWII" on his channel. Worth a watch.....
Is 'smoke' that much different?
My thoughts are these: the crew bailed from the tank attempting to get back to friendly units. The crew were seperated with all of the tankers but Perry being captured by the SS. Perry was captured by another unit. Its possible that he managed to hide from some time and later in confusion he went toward enemy lines.
Perry's guilt of being a sole survivor likely stopped him from speaking about the events. Its possible that the account of the rest of the tank crew being shot comes from a French civilian either from the village or from wherever they were taken behind the lines.
This is by far the most likely scenario, that Tpr Perry evaded immediate capture by the SS, but fell into the hands of a more 'friendly' German unit close by. It would appear he was resourceful enough to escape later, and survivor guilt would explain why he apparently remained tight lipped about the fate of the rest of the crew, whose execution he may have even witnessed from a hiding place.
I agree. What you have outlined is most likely - Pepper escaped and was captured elsewhere away from the dreaded Crocodile; the others were shot out of hand after being taken from the tank. The cover up is simply we Allies also took few prisoners in those battles. Sometimes its better not to dig too deeply when there is nothing to be gained.
Do one about the Beslan school crisis, and the Spetnaz operator who called the airstrike on to his location.
What did pepper say hapend to them?
It would have been worth mentioning the young SS soldiers name, Emil Dürr. He did after all earn the Knights Cross in this action.
Lloyd Scott : Since you seem familiar with the German side of this episode, is there any indication in German records as to what happened on that day? Either written or anecdotal from former SS troops.
@@StevenKeery the SS did hate the Crocodile and its crew members so it wouldnt supprise me that they were shot. However the accounts of the Germans vs the British don't match. The author Ian Dalglish is quoted in this video on the subject, in his book about Epsom this engagement is spoken of in more detail than this video let's on. The Germans claim that the magnetic limit mine was reattached before it exploded mortally wounding Durr and causing the Churchill to brew up. That would have meant there was no remains of the crew to be found. If the one lad got out fast enough that would explain why he wasn't aware of the others himself, if they were shot why wasn't he? If he's a prisoner why not with his crew? The limpet mine would have made a very small hole so it would appear as if there was no damage at first glance. I think the most likely solution to this is they made a mistake as to the condition of the tank or were talking about another Churchill and the crew died after being brewed up. The battle didn't last too long in this area, as Epsom progressed we took hold and there were no graves found, the locals didn't find graves and the SS weren't really in the habit of the burial of our lads that close to the front lines. That's my view anyway. I am writing a book about the area currently so I have looked into this quite a bit.
@@VonBlitzkrieg : I'm not sure that would be a valid idea. There are not so many in a British squadron of tanks to cause confusion between one that has been destroyed and one mildly damaged but easily repairable.
A simple radio roll call or ID marking on the tank would clarify.
I would assume it is the tank Commander who gives the order to abandon the tank. If so all the crew would be aware of the reason why this was felt necessary.
If Trooper Pepper survived, he must have known why the order was given to abandon the tank.
If any of them had died in the tank, there would be visible evidence of such.
@@StevenKeery and that's the ugly side of it all we can only speculate on the events as sadly we have no real evidence.
My Dad was part of 43rd Wessex division, he was in the 4/5th Dorset's, I think that's correct, he has been gone for more than 20 years now but I know he went ashore at Normandy on D+6 , I believe he fought at Hill 112, I know he crossed the Rhine in a DUKW I also think he fought in Holland but I maybe wrong on that one.
they just of well could have died say in a allied air raid while they were being transported to the a pow camp. such is the nature of war. And the allied air raids could be really devastating to anything near one.
Didnt some german soilders take a dim view of Flamethrower users, i might be wrong, but isnt there accounts of flamethrower users being shot instead of taken as pows, so it could still be possible that they were infact taken and then executed later, before any offical documention of there status as being such, as for why they didnt shot all them, They only needed one to interagate for information.
Anyone ever done a ground Xray of the farm where they were lined up and shot? I bet their bodies are in the farm grounds, probably within 500 meters of where they were supposedly lined up and shot.
Another great video. You do have trouble with pronunciation that I happily ignore but getting a guy's name wrong is a bit much. Please just get someone to approve your narrative before you post. Cyril was such a common English name of the time.
Did nobody bother to ask trooper. Pepper , as to the what had happened ? kind of odd nobody said " u dont by chance know what happened to the 4 other blokes that where with u , do you? "
In the confusion of war a lot of things are asked and done but the variables aren't documented minutely enough . Who knows the documents we are after may have been damaged for instance during the movement of Regiment HQ's ( just throwing that in )
what was the outcome of Pepper...where is his testimony?
There’s word that flamethrower tank crews are treated differently to ordinary tank crews
At the time it was not unusual for flame thrower operators no to be taken taken prisoner even if they tried surrendering or even killed afterward surrendering. Hiding such an incident would not be unusual for soldiers that believed the enemy would eventually advance and take the position.
My sister in-laws uncle was last seen injured by a bridge at Normandy. Nothing further is known.
The Germans always shot captured Crockodile crews.
I wouldn't be surprised if there bodies aren't lying near the farm in an old trench. It shouldn't be difficult to locate them with the current technology we have.
Lest we forget
I've been reading a lot of ww2 books US British and German.
A German said all crocodile crews were shot as they thought it immoral.
And one German soldier said he saw a British crocodile crew being executed after surrendering.
Now I'm not sure what book it was and I wish I'd seen this video first.
U will try and find the book and information.
Prob spearhead as it tells stories from all sides, but could be von lucks or Tom Closes.
From what was told I'd say they were executed after having things done to them so buried to hide what was done.
But many things were wrong in the war, soldiers put as dead came home and so on.
If a soldier said he saw them shot then it could be true as records can be wrong.
I have a couple of questions regards to this. Germans, even the SS were anal about keeping war records. Surely they would have reported in their war diary that they had engaged and defeated a British tank. They may not have admitted what they did to the crew other than KIA. But it strikes me that this would be a viable primary source of information on the event. Further it is likely that the records were taken by the British if the infantry later took Le Perron. I would also note that it was common for the Germans to kill crocodile crews if they captured them, because of the significant fear that flame throwers cause and the implicated injury that could occur.
Why is a tank attached to the New Zealanders named after a City in Canada ? WHY IS THAT SAME TANK SITTING OUTSIDE OF THE CALGARY AMOURY IN CANADA? I must know !
I was under the impression that prisoners were generally not taken from flamethrower vehicles.
From pages 59-60 of George Mann's book "Flame Thrower" (1974) in regards to Lieutenant Harvey and crew members: "The armoured cars had met an advancing S.S. division. There had been a battle, and after many days the SS had been pushed back to a ridge a few miles inland… two days before Harvey had gone in with an attack and lost a track as he milled about on the objective. It was a simple repair. But as he did it a counter-attack came in and the rest of the squadron was forced to fall back. Now, that morning, the squadron had helped to retake the place. They found Harvey’s tank and the tools laid out on the ground around it. Harvey and his crew had been lined up against a farmhouse wall and shot… would they shoot all captured Crocodile crews from now on?”
Explain how Pepper got to escape from a POW camp then? The more and more I read into this, its looking like you are quoting a book that had the "official story" to not mess with the troops morale. Its looking more and more that when Pepper made it back he has told his superiors that it had been a friendly fire incident that had killed these guys, but with it being the early days after d-day they will have been trying to keep morale as high as possible and lined up and shot by the SS will have been a better story than telling the truth (at that time anyway).
I'm guessing that the official line just was never corrected by at least the 70's and is now lost for good.
Maybe Pepper ran as the SS counter attacked. He felt guilt for leaving the crew and maybe even knew he was sole survivor?
@@randommadness1021 perhaps he was seperated for whatever reason and captured by a less barbaric group of soldiers
@@dylanmilne6683 there's no evidence that he ran, and that's a hefty accusation to make of a soldier. Could be any number of a hundred reasons why he could have been seperated
@@Peoples_Republic_of_Devonshire there's evidence that he took an action or was in circumstances which his other crew members were not. It's possible that he was helpless to see his comrades be captured yet was still feeling guilty by not staying with them as a crew.
At no point I am i saying Pepper is a coward.
Although it would be worth for the relatives to provide closure, it would be now down to scouring the area with metal detectors to see if any they're buried in a shallow grave near to the village.
Very interesting.
I think that because Trooper Pepper was captured, it would be very unlikely that the others would have been killed after capture unless Pepper was the only one to escape to be recaptured later by another unit; but then surely he would have seen what happened to the others and reported the war crime after he met back up with the British in April 1945. Also if they did execute them, why leave a wintess? If they were going to spare anyone, surely it would have been the officer as he would have had the most information. Also Trooper Pepper would certainly have told everyone about this when he was liberated in 1945. As they were so close to a German HQ, they were probably taken there for interogation before being moved away from the front.
I think it's probably more likely that they were captured and then sent to a POW camp after interrogation. Maybe on the way there, the train or convoy they were on was attacked by allied fighter bombers and they were all killed and the records on them were lost or burnt at the end of the war or in allied fire Bombing. Maybe Trooper Pepper had got separated or attempted to escape and was recaptured so he ended up on a different train or in a different convoy so didn't know what happened to the others.
Possibly they were captured and all apart from Trooper Pepper managed to escape as they were being taken to the German rear. Trooper Pepper was then sent to a POW camp. The others either attacked or were found by another German unit and in the ensuing firefight they all were killed and either left as the German unit moved on to the front or were buried in an unmarked grave.
Also as there is no evidence of them being murdered, instead of people trying to fit the evidence to that narrative, it would perhaps be more useful if they just looked for other things that happened to them and any information about the crew that is still out there, maybe in the German archives of POWs captured by the 12th SS Hitlerjugend. Only if tangable evidence that can be confirmed presents itself that they were murdered should it be said that they were murdered.
What is also odd is that why would the Germans have left an essentially working Churchill there? All it would need would be to have some of its spare tracks used to fix the broken tracks and they could have encorporated it into their defences. Even if imobalised it could still have the turret turned to use against the British. There are many pictures of captured Churchills being used by the Germans. They could have even got the crew to repair the tracks and then stuck the driver inside with 2 German infantry and have him drive back to a better position in the rear to get the Churchill used by a Panzer unit of the 12th SS. Something similar was done with about 15 captured Shermans at Herlisheim during the Battle of the Bulge in 1945.
It's said that crews of flame thrower tanks weren't too popular if captured.R.I.P.
I think I remember David Fletcher saying that any flame tank crews the Germans captured were executed because they feared and hated fire so much.
I have had a thought about this, and maybe it is not as sinister as it seems, maybe the rest of the crew were captured and were loaded onto the back of a truck to be processed before being taken to a POW camp, maybe that truck was attacked by Allied aircraft with rockets and there wasn't much left after the truck was blown to pieces
Video Idea: The Limbang Raid
That's a brilliant idea. Jeremy Moore's raid is considered one of the perfect commando raids. He would later become a Major General and Commander Land Forces in the Falklands War
It doesn't get the recognition it deserves
Flame thrower tank crews and flame thrower operators would stand little chance of surviving if captured , all sides gave them short shrift due to the horrific nature of the weapons.
Can you do a video about the "Moscow Theater hostage crisis"?
The SS will know where these boys are, so sad but their bodies must be close by as the SS wouldn't have waited to execute them but why spare 1? Strange
So many scenarios about what could have happened. The SS could have taken them prisoners and they could have been killed by shelling or air raid. I know SS are not afraid of killing prisoners and usually flame throwers are not taken alive. But why would Pepper would have been spared. So I am more about à friendly fire kill, by a bomb, later on that day.
Make one about (iran forces) like (sepah pasdaran)
Most flamethrower crews, if captured, were shot on the spot or doused in gasoline and burned.
Weren't most flame troops (on both sides, Axis and Allies, on the pacific and European theatres) that were captured usually tortured and executed? Just because of the brutal nature of the weapons they were using? Wouldn't that be the most plausible reason they were never found? And the last member who was taken POW was likely done for information, and not killing him being a mercy for information provided? It seems to me that the guy who survived likely did so by selling out his own people by giving up information, and probably will never admit to it because of the humiliation and lives lost to the allies the he himself had caused. Why is this not mentioned?
It was common for both sides to execute anyone captured that had been using flamethowers of any kind the same went for snipers .
Snipers also received the same consideration.
Execution does make sense, the SS were known to being unforgiving soldiers even to their fellow Wehrmacht soldiers. However this raises the question as to why Trooper G. Penny wasn't executed along with them.
Was usually standard practice to execute crews of crocodile tanks.
Same with Germans caught carrying flame throwers.
either blown to peices and unrecoverable, or prisoners of war and burnt the same way the crocodile crew did to them imo, OR the story was true and shot by a barn in summery executions, just because they couldnt be found body wise, does not mean the claims were untrue
It's pretty obvious as to what happened. The Germans murdered them after they surrendered and almost certainly buried the bodies in unmarked graves so as to hide evidence of war crimes. As an aside, @3:25, the soldiers depicted are Finnish. They are passing the burnt out hulk of a Soviet tank. The soldier at the forefront has a Finnish Suomi KP/-31submachine gun slung over his shoulder