"'. . . cause it's a much easier spot to land all the grounds." Thanks Benjamin, that is what I needed. And, I like your idea of wiring the two ground bars together.
The extra ground wire between the bus bars is a good idea because of the paint on the panel. You're not guaranteed of a low resistance connection through the chassis.
I really like how you brought the circuit wires in and looped them at the bottom. If you ever need to move things around you will have plenty of excess wire. I always see these panels where everything is just as long as it needs to be and everything is bent all perfect. That panel can't really be relocated at all without rewiring circuits or adding unsightly junction boxes. I learned a lot from this, the cutoff panel and arc fault videos. I have to un-bond the sub panel in my shop so I can arc fault breakers and it's fed by a cutoff panel and you answered all my questions. Thanks a ton for making these videos!
Great video, work and info. One thing that I do is grind off the paint where Ill be installing the the ground bus to ensure a well established grounding point.
I am confused by this video. Bottom line is ground and neutral can not be bonded (tied together). If they are bonded and you lose the neutral all the current will go back on all the grounds. So if you touch a ground and you are touching a pipe or somehow are grounded…… say goodby! ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
@@JesseKlaus ... bonding of neutral and ground is ONLY at the point of first disconnect. That means in whatever panel the main line circuit breaker is mounted. If it's out at the meter, then that's where you bond.... and no place else!
I hope I got it right... Separate building with a sub panel has it's own ground rod, connected to the ground from the mail panel and connected all the grounds in this building. Don't connect to the neutral. FYI, I just want to spot check some shady installers. Excellent, very helpful!
Douglas Hurd If you wire it that way your breaker may not trip an wires may be energized if a malfunction occurs from a appliance you only use ground rods that are minimum 8 feet in earth contact do two at least minimum of six feet apart on the service entrance disconnect than sub panels use the ground from service entrance disconnect so it would trip the breakers quicker an less heat buildup as well as easier to diagnose a ground issue this guy don’t have a full understanding of electrical theory please research more an be careful if you want additional ground protection it should stay all in the service entrance disconnect panel like four ground rods wired separately instead of daisy chained to a separate bonding strip than one wire ran into service entrance disconnect panel that way you have the four rods you want for additional ground protection
Many of the older pre-late 60’s sub-panels combine neutrals and grounds. It seems that one option would be to tap the panel for a universal ground bar, run a #4 (125 amp) ground wire to the main, and separate the neutrals and grounds. The other option is to replace the panel which is often a better choice.
@Bob Atleast he has an actual understanding of why a subpanel requires separation of ground and neutral, as opposed to most of the "real" electricians that wire up what they think is right. But im sure you have it down to a science..."Bob"
@Bob instead why dont you share your profound knowledge rather than putting him down over a video where he did nothing wrong. Though I didnt say you didnt know your job, most of the people I have learned the most from, who were truly smart, weren't half as condescending as you. You could do a lot more with that knowledge, but you decide to be an internet troll. Interesting, I would say you would have to be pushing 50 at 26 years in the field. Way to express you expertise at such a mature age.
Just finished running my wires in my shop through emt and you bet I also pulled a redundant ground wire also just in case. Can't be too safe I love it. Now I have to do this to the sub that is supplying my shop because the builder bonded every ground and neutral together.
Very clean install on the clarification part. You do nice work, I would love to have someone as tidy as you are when I need work done. My last experience with a "journeyman" electrician didn't leave me with confidence that the job was done correctly just because it looked so sloppy.
Yeah unfortunately not all installs look the best. Sometimes it isn't the guys fault in that they are under pressure to finish ASAP and can't take the time to make it look neat. You have to shop around and ask for an electrician that does neat work. You will pay a bit more but I think that it is worth it. Thanks for the comment!
Just preparing to install a main load center as a sub panel in my attached garage as I want to have the ability to kill the power to the garage with a main breaker and I couldn't remember how to handle the lack of separate ground bars in a main panel installed as a subpanel. This video really helped, TY.
Here are some hand tools that I highly recommend: www.amazon.com/shop/benjaminsahlstrom Really appreciate all of your comments and the discussion here! Let me know what thoughts you have! If you use one of the above links it will also help support the channel at NO cost to you. I wouldn't be able to do this without you guys. Blessings, Ben
Thanks for the help! This is exactly what I was looking for. I just need to go back in the video and make.sure where the 4th wire (ground) goes into the main panel.
If lightening hits the saturated ground it goes up the ground rod and can destroy all circuits if the neutral wires aren't isolated. That's why boats are wired like that.
In this case it is also wired for protection against a loss of neutral, in which case most home ground rods would have too high resistance to trip a breaker in a ground fault.
If I'm understanding correctly, did you say it is ok to jump the second ground bar from the neutral bar? Isn't this the same as bonding the ground and neutral? I thought they should ONLY be bonded at the main panel. Is this incorrect? BTW, that's the "cleanest" subpanel installation I've seen. It's clear that you take pride in your work!
99% of panels I've used have had a way to easily separate the factory given neutral/ground bars for a subpanel.....Betting that one did too....PS the highlight of the video was when you said "assuredy"
The previous owner replaced all the wiring sometime in the late 80's, including adding a 30A subpanel on the second floor. He built the garage in 1999, with another 30A subpanel. I've live here 20 years, and recently stumbled across your first video about the bonding screw, which led to this one. Today, I had reason to peek inside the upstairs subpanel, and found the grounds and neutrals all on the same busbar, and the bonding screw is installed. I checked the one on the garage - same story. I will fix them both tomorrow. Thanks!
All done. I have a new appreciation for the skill it takes to wire a perfectly neat & organized breaker box, and I was only dealing with about six circuits in each one.
Thanks for the great videos!! Any chance you could please do a video showing you building a subpanel using a Square D Plug on neutral style load center. It would be great to see how you convert them to a subpanel. Thanks!
Canada is so far ahead of the states when it comes to bonding, we don’t bond any grounds to the neutral bar we bond them to the enclosure. When bonding the grounds to neutral bars you will ALWAYS have a parallel current path if the bonds aren’t insulated or touching the enclosure. If you’re using EMT this wouldn’t be a problem. By adding that jumper wire you’ve added resistance to you’re fault path not good. You ground at 2 locations? No idea why you’d need 2 points of ground not to mention you landed the ground conductor to the bonds which serves no purpose.
thanks for the videos - I have a 3 wire feed sub panel in a detached garage that was built in the mid eighties. the sub panel has a isolated neutral bar but no ground bar (both grounds and neutrals are attached to the isolated neutral) should a ground bar be added and neutrals and grounds separated. Sub panel also has its own ground rod.
Thank you for your video. I needed the information that you showed on your video about that whole house surge protector and how it's grounded to the neutral in the instruction but it also supposed to be grounded now when I watched your video I saw it's directly to the ground not the neutral that's the information I wanted to double check on that's why I've been watching videos thank you again.
When adding a 200 amp sub panel as Main And using old 3 wire , Main as Disconnect , is it ok to use No 4 SEC. Aluminum . 3 wire and adding additional ,No 2 copper, as 4th wire to ground bussbar. ? Thanks. love ur videos.
I understand why its not required to run a copper wire to bond the new ground bar to the enclosure/existing ground bars because its bonded through the screws, but im surprised that for this panel, one screw that barely threads through the paint is efficient enough for code requirements to bond the ground bar.
Great video. I need to do this very thing to my panel. A previous owner added a generator subpanel, but left all the neutrals in the main panel. I need to add a ground bar in the main panel and move the ground wires to it so I can free up some spaces to add more neutrals for additional circuits in the main panel.
Chris Keogh the utility provides two hots and a neutral. Here in Michigan, we have #6 stranded that runs from the panel to two ground rods (10 feet apart).
@@mrnetwurm What I am saying is: Older code didnt require 4 wires from disconnect to home panel. If you dont have have that dedicated ground running back to the disconnect where it is bonded to neutral, you would be relying on a ground rod to trip geound faults. They wont, even at 25 ohms they will pull about 5 amps on 120v. Be careful when trying to change things to "current code". You want a path for ground faults to return to utility neutral at some point.
@@chriskeogh2316 what would you recommend when I only have 3 wires from disconnect to main panel (2 hot 1 neutral) , and no grounding rods at all, and none of the circuits have a grounding wire. All 2 wire.
so in the main panel you can put the neutrals & the grounds on the same bars that has a grounding screw in it and on the sub panel you have to separate the neutrals from the grounds with a separate grounding bar.
tunnelwind1 yes this is true. This is to prevent objectionable current, or a current loop in which current travels back to the main panel or source on not just the neutral but also the ground wires and metal parts attached essentially energizing things that shouldn’t be energized. This is why sometimes people get shocked by stuff and not know why.
If you are installing a ground rod and connecting it to the sub-panel box, why back feed the ground to the main panel? Doesn't grounding mean just that, to run a wire from the ground rod in the dirt to the box?
My understanding is that there are two different grounding systems. Sounds as though you are conflating the two. Electricity always wants to go back to it's source. In your house, the source is actually the transformer in the street. So here's grounding system #1) you need to bond every component in your house that normally does not carry voltage, but *could* carry voltage in the case of a wiring failure. Say, you drop your blender one too many times, and the internal black wire bringing juice to the appliance comes loose and touches the metal housing of the blender. Grounding system # 1 provides a straight shot from that blender housing back to the MAIN service panel, and from there, on to the transformer in the street. The circuit the blender is on NEEDS that straight shot, providing a closed loop, allowing a crap-ton of current to flow immediately, and therefore tripping the breaker and saving your sorry butt (or mine!) from an electric shock next time you decide to make a smoothie. Grounding system #2 is a different ball of wax. I do believe that every structure needs a ground rod to protect it from very huge current surges like lightening. When Zeus decides to zap your detached garage, asking the ground feeder wire to pass all that current back up the the transformer in the street is a no-go. So a big, fat, grounding rod conductor shoots the lightening back into the earth where it belongs. Or something like that!
Hi Ben i just want to ask which one is the binding screw here in my main panel? I was searching and haven’t found any except that I am wondering it is the green wire connected to the ground and eventually connected to the neutral? I will attach the picture so you can see and confirm please?
This video is from 2018, but I sure hope you monitor the comments, and can answer my question. As I was replacing the breakers in my panel, which are constantly getting false tripping, I have to disconnect the pig tail. The screw for the ground bar has a square hole in it, and a slot that you should be able to use a flat screwdriver to loosen. Well, the electrician must have been Godzilla because it's so tight that they start to strip instead of loosen. I've tried a #1, 2, and 3 square bits, but they don't fit in the square hole. Which bit are you using to tighten the screw in your video?
Hello Maestro, thank you for educating us, I have a question, my house was built in 1936 before you even born, the electrical installation is not grounded at all, all my electrical out lets only have the hot and the neutral, the neutral from the main entrance box goes to connect to the water pipes in the property, I would like to ground what I can inside the house with new out lets installs, and with a 7 ft bar into the ground, my question is, can I get away with just one bar in to the ground?? I see in the beginning of your video, you mention 2 bars in to the ground, and also I like to install the grounds strip in the same main box, now would I tap in to the neutral strip from my grounds strip in to the main box?? because I only have 1 box, the electricity meter is in the same box, thank you in advance!
Did I understand this correctly? All four wires (main-panel ground, main-panel neutral, subpanel ground, and spanel neutral) are tied together and bonded to the cabinet? Doesn't that create the possibility of current flow from thr neutral of one box to the ground of another?
Excellent video. Subscribed! I have a sub panel in a garage, fed by 4 wires (2 hot, neutral, and ground). The neutral bar in the sub panel is not bonded to ground and I believe/read it should NEVER be bonded in a sub panel. I have 3 things attached to the sub panel- a three prong outlet for a compressor, an air conditioner (3 wire), and an electric garage heater (3 wire). All are 240v (or 220?). I do not have a separate grounding rod for the sub panel. The sub is 4 feet from the main panel and I added a grounding bar to the sub panel. *****The question is... should the ground for each of the 3 connections be connected to the ground bar or neutral bar in the sub panel? I cannot find the answer anywhere!!! Thanks!
You are correct, sub panels do not have a individual ground taken to a second separate ground rod. Main distribution panel is "earth" grounded only. All other sub panels connect back to distribution panel. Check voltage between neutral and ground at Main panel. Should be less than 1vac. Had a situation where lights would change illumination levels (like a small occasional flicker). Had 12 to 15vac between the ground bar and neutral at Main panel. Found ground bonding bolt loose, stripped buss of loads (opened breakers) opened main. Got about 1/2 to 3/4 turn on bonding screw which "bonds" neutral bar to ground bar at main panel, Added additional 10 gauge wire between neutral buss bar and ground buss bar. Voltage drop now 0.07vac. Main feed in now 120vac to ground each phase 240 between the two phases & steady. Was told all electrical equipment sounds much better. Electric bill improved about 10%. Everyone should have a qualified electrician come into home and re-torque all connections or at a minimum use a non contact temperature device and check all connections for heat signatures (loose connection). Many fires start from simply loose connections on breaker or buss bars. Be safe, always wear gloves, keep audible voltage detector on. Breakers can fail as they are mechanical devices. 0.005 (500 millamps) can kill.
If we are adding a sub panel, how big the circuit breaker can be added to the main supply panel. Say the main panel is 200A, considering there are already existing circuit breakers at the main supply panel. what are the engineering requirements ??
Hi Ben! I would like to add an exterior gfci outlet with a dedicated cable to my front entrance. On my main electric panel, I still have a few slots for additional single pole breakers. Most of my lightings are LEDs and and I have gas appliances so no problem of overloading. But on my neutral bar, I'm running out of screw in space to insert another neutral wire. My local home depot master electrician tells me I can put 2 neutral wires in under one same screw because he says there's not much current going through the neutral bus anyways. Is he correct? Secondly, I thought neutral bus is where the current coming from hot wires, goes to the outlet, then go back through neutral wires, then the neutral bus, then back to the transformer. Doesn't that mean theres quite a bit of current going though the neutral bus? Is then the grounding bus and wires another pathway for any excess current to go back to the transformer in addition to the neutral bus? Thanks in advance, and love your videos!
Well that's interesting. In my city, not only are the neutral and ground bonded at either your meter or your main panel, the ground bar in your main panel is also connected to a copper wire that goes outside to an actual ground stake. This way redundant grounding can go either via your service entrance wires or the ground stake if all else fails. I've seen so many of them with the ground stakes that I'm surprised that they aren't all like that all over the country.
Is a transfer switch panel that is used for whole house generators considered a “sub panel”? Or does a “sub panel” always refer to an additional breaker panel? Thanks.
This will be my first wiring to a subpanel, now the sub panel has a ground bonding screw already in the box n it came with a extra green bonding screw in a bag I guess for the neutral bar n I'm know not to install it. My question is do I need to run a ground from my main panel to the subpanel then add a extra ground going to a grounding rod? I watched a video where they ran it off a 100 amp breaker from the main to the subpanel 100 feet away n installed both hots n the neutral wire, but they just ran a ground to a grounding rod n not one from the main. My garage is just like 25-30 feet from where my main panel is. Thanks God Bless!
Very clear and smart info! Thanks. Is the neutral/ground separation the same for a sub panel off a sub panel. So I have a main 200 amp in the house then sub panel#1 in detached garage then sub panel#2 from sub panel #1 in barn.
This is a stupid question but what is the reason for the separation of the grounds and common wires? What damaged is there if this rule is not followed in the second box?
As a sub panel you connect your neutral to your ground bar? And the neutral should not be bonded to the panel itself right? doesn't that essentially just make your ground bar another neutral?
Around the world building codes require the bonding of neutral and ground to be at only one place, the main panel, never anywhere else. The reason for that is the neutral line normally carries plenty of current, and you don't want an alternate pathway through the (often smaller) ground line to ever carry some of that normal current back to the main panel. For example if a neutral pathway should become interrupted, or even just a little faulty, current may find an easier pathway through the incorrectly bonded ground line of a subpanel which should carry voltage only in an emergency. Ground lines connect to the frame of most electrical equipment and if charge appears there a person could get a shock from a failed neutral elsewhere in the house. By bonding only at the main panel, the chance of backfeeding the ground wire is minimized.
Benjamin, great video agree on all but I did have a question. What about a sub panel that mounted on a transformer that does not have a grounding rod. Should I still have a jumper between the grounding bar and the neutral or will this be one of those instances where the grounding bar and the neutral bar need to be isolated away from each other without a jumping wire. Thanks in advance
Ben, great video. It looks as though you also had to add a lug for the first grounding bar for your wire coming from the cut-off panel. Is this correct? Would the grounding bar kit you have a link to handle an incoming 4awg grounding wire, or is the lug necessary? Thanks
It looks like you are good to go with a 4AWG copper wire on this one! amzn.to/2NdR1bV The description states: "Square D ground bar kit. Each terminal accepts (1) #14 to #4 copper wire, (1) #12 to #4 Aluminum wire, (2) #14 to #12 copper wire, or (2) #12 to #10 Aluminum wire." I was connecting a larger aluminum wire which is why I had to use the lug adapter. Thank you for the question and especially for being a subscriber! Blessings from Minnesota!
@@BenjaminSahlstrom Hi Ben, I'm trying to connect a #4 THHN stranded to a 15 terminal Suare D ground bar. Mine also says it takes up to #4 copper, but the reality is no way, it's just too tight. I don't want to drill out the hole. Is that a Square D lug adapter? If so, can you give me the model #? I can only find neutral lugs, not ground lugs for Square D.
I get confused with ground rods. My main panel in on a pole by the road, it has ground bars. My shack has a sub panel and I have heard some say put a ground rod in the ground there too others say not to connect to it ... others use the term "ground loop". Maybe some info on that..????
I have a partially installed subpanel into a garage with only 3 #2 wires buried deep. Do I drive 2 ground rods and connect ground wire to a separate ground bar along with the bare ground wires. Can't dig up the concrete to run a 4th wire from main to sub.
Best video 👍. I have 2 separate meters with 2 main panels for a 2 family house. Now I use it as one family and closed one meter/account. So I want to convert one of panels as Sub-panel. Do I need to get additional ground bar for this converted sub panel? It’s in same house and 2 panels next to each other and they are all connected to metal conduit, then to the ground. Thanks 🙏
I am adding a breaker on my panel, but I see no ground bus bar. Only two neutral bus bar. What should I do with my ground wire? should I put both my ground wire and the neutral wire onto the neutral bus bar?
"'. . . cause it's a much easier spot to land all the grounds." Thanks Benjamin, that is what I needed. And, I like your idea of wiring the two ground bars together.
The extra ground wire between the bus bars is a good idea because of the paint on the panel. You're not guaranteed of a low resistance connection through the chassis.
I really like how you brought the circuit wires in and looped them at the bottom. If you ever need to move things around you will have plenty of excess wire. I always see these panels where everything is just as long as it needs to be and everything is bent all perfect. That panel can't really be relocated at all without rewiring circuits or adding unsightly junction boxes. I learned a lot from this, the cutoff panel and arc fault videos. I have to un-bond the sub panel in my shop so I can arc fault breakers and it's fed by a cutoff panel and you answered all my questions. Thanks a ton for making these videos!
Great video, work and info. One thing that I do is grind off the paint where Ill be installing the the ground bus to ensure a well established grounding point.
You can also install the ground bar by actually using a drill and tap to actually thread the screw into the metal
I am confused by this video. Bottom line is ground and neutral can not be bonded (tied together). If they are bonded and you lose the neutral all the current will go back on all the grounds. So if you touch a ground and you are touching a pipe or somehow are grounded…… say goodby! ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
@@SparkeyDogfish aren't they bonded in the meter?
@@JesseKlaus ... bonding of neutral and ground is ONLY at the point of first disconnect. That means in whatever panel the main line circuit breaker is mounted. If it's out at the meter, then that's where you bond.... and no place else!
I hope I got it right... Separate building with a sub panel has it's own ground rod, connected to the ground from the mail panel and connected all the grounds in this building. Don't connect to the neutral.
FYI, I just want to spot check some shady installers.
Excellent, very helpful!
Douglas Hurd If you wire it that way your breaker may not trip an wires may be energized if a malfunction occurs from a appliance you only use ground rods that are minimum 8 feet in earth contact do two at least minimum of six feet apart on the service entrance disconnect than sub panels use the ground from service entrance disconnect so it would trip the breakers quicker an less heat buildup as well as easier to diagnose a ground issue this guy don’t have a full understanding of electrical theory please research more an be careful if you want additional ground protection it should stay all in the service entrance disconnect panel like four ground rods wired separately instead of daisy chained to a separate bonding strip than one wire ran into service entrance disconnect panel that way you have the four rods you want for additional ground protection
Thank you! This is the only video online that explains this clearly.
You explain things so thoroughly! Thank you! This video is so helpful!
First class in your clarity, Benjamin. Thanks so much. Rick
Thanks for the info I tied my grounds and neutrals together on my subpanel in my house I will be separating them asap.
Mostviews111, make sure that there is no bonding screw (green) in the sub panel either.
Many of the older pre-late 60’s sub-panels combine neutrals and grounds. It seems that one option would be to tap the panel for a universal ground bar, run a #4 (125 amp) ground wire to the main, and separate the neutrals and grounds. The other option is to replace the panel which is often a better choice.
Nice to see how the lads do it over the pond
@Bob Atleast he has an actual understanding of why a subpanel requires separation of ground and neutral, as opposed to most of the "real" electricians that wire up what they think is right. But im sure you have it down to a science..."Bob"
@Bob instead why dont you share your profound knowledge rather than putting him down over a video where he did nothing wrong. Though I didnt say you didnt know your job, most of the people I have learned the most from, who were truly smart, weren't half as condescending as you. You could do a lot more with that knowledge, but you decide to be an internet troll. Interesting, I would say you would have to be pushing 50 at 26 years in the field. Way to express you expertise at such a mature age.
@Bob Typical troll reply, no constructive criticism. Mike holt taught at night to 10 or 15 students at a time, then he reached millions on the net. 😘
Just finished running my wires in my shop through emt and you bet I also pulled a redundant ground wire also just in case. Can't be too safe I love it. Now I have to do this to the sub that is supplying my shop because the builder bonded every ground and neutral together.
Excellent hands-on ground bar grounding job on a Sub panel. Thank you for sharing with us.. you are the BOSS
Awsome Lookingwired Panel. I think you have reached Level god for Panel Presentation.
It’s good to have a organized panel but be careful of bundling the conductors too tight, that could fail inspection
Very clean install on the clarification part. You do nice work, I would love to have someone as tidy as you are when I need work done. My last experience with a "journeyman" electrician didn't leave me with confidence that the job was done correctly just because it looked so sloppy.
Yeah unfortunately not all installs look the best. Sometimes it isn't the guys fault in that they are under pressure to finish ASAP and can't take the time to make it look neat. You have to shop around and ask for an electrician that does neat work. You will pay a bit more but I think that it is worth it. Thanks for the comment!
Thanks going back and clarifying about the grounding cable and grounding rod. That's what I was looking for. Your videos are great
Thanks for explaining the addition of 2nd ground bar
Your wires look so clean especially with that many
Just preparing to install a main load center as a sub panel in my attached garage as I want to have the ability to kill the power to the garage with a main breaker and I couldn't remember how to handle the lack of separate ground bars in a main panel installed as a subpanel. This video really helped, TY.
Nice and clean panel. Mine is starting to become a mess as it becomes full, no matter how much I tried to avoid it!
Here are some hand tools that I highly recommend: www.amazon.com/shop/benjaminsahlstrom
Really appreciate all of your comments and the discussion here! Let me know what thoughts you have! If you use one of the above links it will also help support the channel at NO cost to you. I wouldn't be able to do this without you guys.
Blessings,
Ben
Hey Ben, Curious what the current transformer on the side of the panel is for?
Thanks for the help! This is exactly what I was looking for. I just need to go back in the video and make.sure where the 4th wire (ground) goes into the main panel.
LOL my panel looks like a drunk electrician installed it. Im envious to how clean your work looks.
Your workmanship is first rate. Good job!
2:42 NEVER WORK WITH ELECTRICITY WITH ACCESSORIES ON LOL
If lightening hits the saturated ground it goes up the ground rod and can destroy all circuits if the neutral wires aren't isolated. That's why boats are wired like that.
In this case it is also wired for protection against a loss of neutral, in which case most home ground rods would have too high resistance to trip a breaker in a ground fault.
Very professional work, great video.
If I'm understanding correctly, did you say it is ok to jump the second ground bar from the neutral bar? Isn't this the same as bonding the ground and neutral? I thought they should ONLY be bonded at the main panel. Is this incorrect? BTW, that's the "cleanest" subpanel installation I've seen. It's clear that you take pride in your work!
Thank you! This was very helpful refreshing my memory since it’s been a while wiring my last service.
Well done, easy to process and apply, Thank you!
Thanks Ben. Your videos have helped me immensely. Awesome content as always. Thanks again.
Had an inspector in Northern Ca state you CAN NOT add a ground bar onto an electrical panel as it voids the UL listing to the electrical panel.
Nicely done. Gave me the info I needed, clearly described and effectively shown.
99% of panels I've used have had a way to easily separate the factory given neutral/ground bars for a subpanel.....Betting that one did too....PS the highlight of the video was when you said "assuredy"
that is as pretty a panel as i've ever seen. attn to detail is fantastic
VERY WELL EXPLAINED ............ good explanation with follow thru on the details TY
You did a great job explaining your work. Thank you very much. Great job!
The previous owner replaced all the wiring sometime in the late 80's, including adding a 30A subpanel on the second floor. He built the garage in 1999, with another 30A subpanel. I've live here 20 years, and recently stumbled across your first video about the bonding screw, which led to this one. Today, I had reason to peek inside the upstairs subpanel, and found the grounds and neutrals all on the same busbar, and the bonding screw is installed. I checked the one on the garage - same story. I will fix them both tomorrow. Thanks!
All done. I have a new appreciation for the skill it takes to wire a perfectly neat & organized breaker box, and I was only dealing with about six circuits in each one.
Thanks for the great videos!! Any chance you could please do a video showing you building a subpanel using a Square D Plug on neutral style load center. It would be great to see how you convert them to a subpanel. Thanks!
I'll add it to the list!
@@BenjaminSahlstrom Thanks I look forward to it.
Canada is so far ahead of the states when it comes to bonding, we don’t bond any grounds to the neutral bar we bond them to the enclosure. When bonding the grounds to neutral bars you will ALWAYS have a parallel current path if the bonds aren’t insulated or touching the enclosure. If you’re using EMT this wouldn’t be a problem. By adding that jumper wire you’ve added resistance to you’re fault path not good. You ground at 2 locations? No idea why you’d need 2 points of ground not to mention you landed the ground conductor to the bonds which serves no purpose.
Very professional. You have great videos.
Glad you found it to be helpful!
thanks for the videos - I have a 3 wire feed sub panel in a detached garage that was built in the mid eighties. the sub panel has a isolated neutral bar but no ground bar (both grounds and neutrals are attached to the isolated neutral) should a ground bar be added and neutrals and grounds separated. Sub panel also has its own ground rod.
Thank you for your video. I needed the information that you showed on your video about that whole house surge protector and how it's grounded to the neutral in the instruction but it also supposed to be grounded now when I watched your video I saw it's directly to the ground not the neutral that's the information I wanted to double check on that's why I've been watching videos thank you again.
gorgeous wire management
Very nice music at the end of the video
Great explanation thank you. Ray
When adding a 200 amp sub panel as Main And using old 3 wire , Main as Disconnect , is it ok to use No 4 SEC. Aluminum . 3 wire and adding additional ,No 2 copper, as 4th wire to ground bussbar. ? Thanks. love ur videos.
Excellent explanation now I understand the grounds thank you
I understand why its not required to run a copper wire to bond the new ground bar to the enclosure/existing ground bars because its bonded through the screws, but im surprised that for this panel, one screw that barely threads through the paint is efficient enough for code requirements to bond the ground bar.
Good job, but I suggest you to wrap green tape for the black grounding wire, otherwise inspector will give you a defeat.(Canada)
Great video. I need to do this very thing to my panel. A previous owner added a generator subpanel, but left all the neutrals in the main panel. I need to add a ground bar in the main panel and move the ground wires to it so I can free up some spaces to add more neutrals for additional circuits in the main panel.
Do you have 4 or 3 wires from utility feeding your main panel? Dont rely on a home ground rod to clear ground faults if you only have 3.
Chris Keogh the utility provides two hots and a neutral. Here in Michigan, we have #6 stranded that runs from the panel to two ground rods (10 feet apart).
@@mrnetwurm What I am saying is: Older code didnt require 4 wires from disconnect to home panel. If you dont have have that dedicated ground running back to the disconnect where it is bonded to neutral, you would be relying on a ground rod to trip geound faults. They wont, even at 25 ohms they will pull about 5 amps on 120v.
Be careful when trying to change things to "current code". You want a path for ground faults to return to utility neutral at some point.
@@chriskeogh2316 what would you recommend when I only have 3 wires from disconnect to main panel (2 hot 1 neutral) , and no grounding rods at all, and none of the circuits have a grounding wire. All 2 wire.
I don't understand why is it necessary to separate the grounds and neutrals in subpanel but on main panel it doesn't matter
Thanks alot for the info! Got me going ;)
so in the main panel you can put the neutrals & the grounds on the same bars that has a grounding screw in it and on the sub panel you have to separate the neutrals from the grounds with a separate grounding bar.
tunnelwind1 yes this is true. This is to prevent objectionable current, or a current loop in which current travels back to the main panel or source on not just the neutral but also the ground wires and metal parts attached essentially energizing things that shouldn’t be energized. This is why sometimes people get shocked by stuff and not know why.
If you are installing a ground rod and connecting it to the sub-panel box, why back feed the ground to the main panel? Doesn't grounding mean just that, to run a wire from the ground rod in the dirt to the box?
My understanding is that there are two different grounding systems. Sounds as though you are conflating the two. Electricity always wants to go back to it's source. In your house, the source is actually the transformer in the street. So here's grounding system #1) you need to bond every component in your house that normally does not carry voltage, but *could* carry voltage in the case of a wiring failure. Say, you drop your blender one too many times, and the internal black wire bringing juice to the appliance comes loose and touches the metal housing of the blender. Grounding system # 1 provides a straight shot from that blender housing back to the MAIN service panel, and from there, on to the transformer in the street. The circuit the blender is on NEEDS that straight shot, providing a closed loop, allowing a crap-ton of current to flow immediately, and therefore tripping the breaker and saving your sorry butt (or mine!) from an electric shock next time you decide to make a smoothie. Grounding system #2 is a different ball of wax. I do believe that every structure needs a ground rod to protect it from very huge current surges like lightening. When Zeus decides to zap your detached garage, asking the ground feeder wire to pass all that current back up the the transformer in the street is a no-go. So a big, fat, grounding rod conductor shoots the lightening back into the earth where it belongs. Or something like that!
Hi Ben i just want to ask which one is the binding screw here in my main panel? I was searching and haven’t found any except that I am wondering it is the green wire connected to the ground and eventually connected to the neutral? I will attach the picture so you can see and confirm please?
Hi Ben, thanks for sharing this video
Good stuff..did 5 minutes and I understand... thanks for the video 🙋
This video is from 2018, but I sure hope you monitor the comments, and can answer my question. As I was replacing the breakers in my panel, which are constantly getting false tripping, I have to disconnect the pig tail. The screw for the ground bar has a square hole in it, and a slot that you should be able to use a flat screwdriver to loosen. Well, the electrician must have been Godzilla because it's so tight that they start to strip instead of loosen. I've tried a #1, 2, and 3 square bits, but they don't fit in the square hole. Which bit are you using to tighten the screw in your video?
Hello Maestro, thank you for educating us, I have a question, my house was built in 1936 before you even born, the electrical installation is not grounded at all, all my electrical out lets only have the hot and the neutral, the neutral from the main entrance box goes to connect to the water pipes in the property, I would like to ground what I can inside the house with new out lets installs, and with a 7 ft bar into the ground, my question is, can I get away with just one bar in to the ground?? I see in the beginning of your video, you mention 2 bars in to the ground, and also I like to install the grounds strip in the same main box, now would I tap in to the neutral strip from my grounds strip in to the main box?? because I only have 1 box, the electricity meter is in the same box, thank you in advance!
Did I understand this correctly? All four wires (main-panel ground, main-panel neutral, subpanel ground, and spanel neutral) are tied together and bonded to the cabinet? Doesn't that create the possibility of current flow from thr neutral of one box to the ground of another?
Love your vid. Very thorough
Very pretty wiring layout.
Why is it important to get the correct ground bus bars for your panel? Is it just so they fit correctly or can it cause some other issues?
Excellent video. Subscribed! I have a sub panel in a garage, fed by 4 wires (2 hot, neutral, and ground). The neutral bar in the sub panel is not bonded to ground and I believe/read it should NEVER be bonded in a sub panel. I have 3 things attached to the sub panel- a three prong outlet for a compressor, an air conditioner (3 wire), and an electric garage heater (3 wire). All are 240v (or 220?). I do not have a separate grounding rod for the sub panel. The sub is 4 feet from the main panel and I added a grounding bar to the sub panel. *****The question is... should the ground for each of the 3 connections be connected to the ground bar or neutral bar in the sub panel? I cannot find the answer anywhere!!! Thanks!
You are correct, sub panels do not have a individual ground taken to a second separate ground rod. Main distribution panel is "earth" grounded only. All other sub panels connect back to distribution panel. Check voltage between neutral and ground at Main panel. Should be less than 1vac. Had a situation where lights would change illumination levels (like a small occasional flicker). Had 12 to 15vac between the ground bar and neutral at Main panel. Found ground bonding bolt loose, stripped buss of loads (opened breakers) opened main. Got about 1/2 to 3/4 turn on bonding screw which "bonds" neutral bar to ground bar at main panel, Added additional 10 gauge wire between neutral buss bar and ground buss bar. Voltage drop now 0.07vac. Main feed in now 120vac to ground each phase 240 between the two phases & steady. Was told all electrical equipment sounds much better. Electric bill improved about 10%. Everyone should have a qualified electrician come into home and re-torque all connections or at a minimum use a non contact temperature device and check all connections for heat signatures (loose connection). Many fires start from simply loose connections on breaker or buss bars. Be safe, always wear gloves, keep audible voltage detector on. Breakers can fail as they are mechanical devices. 0.005 (500 millamps) can kill.
Awesome video, thank you.
If we are adding a sub panel, how big the circuit breaker can be added to the main supply panel. Say the main panel is 200A, considering there are already existing circuit breakers at the main supply panel. what are the engineering requirements ??
Hey ben,so you just drilled a hole in the side of the box for the thick ground wire to exit ?
Hi Ben! I would like to add an exterior gfci outlet with a dedicated cable to my front entrance. On my main electric panel, I still have a few slots for additional single pole breakers. Most of my lightings are LEDs and and I have gas appliances so no problem of overloading. But on my neutral bar, I'm running out of screw in space to insert another neutral wire. My local home depot master electrician tells me I can put 2 neutral wires in under one same screw because he says there's not much current going through the neutral bus anyways. Is he correct?
Secondly, I thought neutral bus is where the current coming from hot wires, goes to the outlet, then go back through neutral wires, then the neutral bus, then back to the transformer. Doesn't that mean theres quite a bit of current going though the neutral bus? Is then the grounding bus and wires another pathway for any excess current to go back to the transformer in addition to the neutral bus? Thanks in advance, and love your videos!
self tapers make any ground bar compatible lol fck that matching em
Great video. Very clear.
Well that's interesting. In my city, not only are the neutral and ground bonded at either your meter or your main panel, the ground bar in your main panel is also connected to a copper wire that goes outside to an actual ground stake. This way redundant grounding can go either via your service entrance wires or the ground stake if all else fails. I've seen so many of them with the ground stakes that I'm surprised that they aren't all like that all over the country.
Is a transfer switch panel that is used for whole house generators considered a “sub panel”? Or does a “sub panel” always refer to an additional breaker panel? Thanks.
Thanks so much...I didn't know that and I have the same box
This will be my first wiring to a subpanel, now the sub panel has a ground bonding screw already in the box n it came with a extra green bonding screw in a bag I guess for the neutral bar n I'm know not to install it. My question is do I need to run a ground from my main panel to the subpanel then add a extra ground going to a grounding rod? I watched a video where they ran it off a 100 amp breaker from the main to the subpanel 100 feet away n installed both hots n the neutral wire, but they just ran a ground to a grounding rod n not one from the main. My garage is just like 25-30 feet from where my main panel is. Thanks God Bless!
Going to be replacing my panel soon with a SquareD QO Plug-on Neutral 42 space load center. I'm cringing at the cost of these QO afci breakers.
Yeah I get what you mean about that. It all adds up!! At least if you're doing it yourself you'll save a bundle of cash on labor.
Good luck!
Super work
Thanks!
Very clear and smart info!
Thanks.
Is the neutral/ground separation the same for a sub panel off a sub panel. So I have a main 200 amp in the house then sub panel#1 in detached garage then sub panel#2 from sub panel #1 in barn.
In a sub panel, on the separate ground bar, can you share a hole for two different ground wires or must you install a new separate ground bar?
This is a stupid question but what is the reason for the separation of the grounds and common wires? What damaged is there if this rule is not followed in the second box?
Wonderful. Thank you
As a sub panel you connect your neutral to your ground bar? And the neutral should not be bonded to the panel itself right? doesn't that essentially just make your ground bar another neutral?
You may want to remove the shiny electrical conductor on your finger when working around circuits regardless if they are on or off.
What's the jumper wire size? 4? 6? 8?
I just tried for 2 minutes to look for a screw on the ground that you dropped in your video. I might need to go back to bed.
Nice job on your wire wrangling. Why is a non isolated neutral bar "dangerous" in a subpanel, but OK in the main panel?
Around the world building codes require the bonding of neutral and ground to be at only one place, the main panel, never anywhere else. The reason for that is the neutral line normally carries plenty of current, and you don't want an alternate pathway through the (often smaller) ground line to ever carry some of that normal current back to the main panel. For example if a neutral pathway should become interrupted, or even just a little faulty, current may find an easier pathway through the incorrectly bonded ground line of a subpanel which should carry voltage only in an emergency. Ground lines connect to the frame of most electrical equipment and if charge appears there a person could get a shock from a failed neutral elsewhere in the house. By bonding only at the main panel, the chance of backfeeding the ground wire is minimized.
THANK YOU for the excellent explanation. Couldn't have explained it as well as you did. Kudos!
Benjamin did you install the grounding rods 6ft apart on the side of your house and run the ground wire to your panel box?
Benjamin, great video agree on all but I did have a question. What about a sub panel that mounted on a transformer that does not have a grounding rod. Should I still have a jumper between the grounding bar and the neutral or will this be one of those instances where the grounding bar and the neutral bar need to be isolated away from each other without a jumping wire. Thanks in advance
Thanks
Ben, great video. It looks as though you also had to add a lug for the first grounding bar for your wire coming from the cut-off panel. Is this correct? Would the grounding bar kit you have a link to handle an incoming 4awg grounding wire, or is the lug necessary? Thanks
It looks like you are good to go with a 4AWG copper wire on this one!
amzn.to/2NdR1bV
The description states:
"Square D ground bar kit. Each terminal accepts (1) #14 to #4 copper wire, (1) #12 to #4 Aluminum wire, (2) #14 to #12 copper wire, or (2) #12 to #10 Aluminum wire."
I was connecting a larger aluminum wire which is why I had to use the lug adapter. Thank you for the question and especially for being a subscriber! Blessings from Minnesota!
@@BenjaminSahlstrom Hi Ben, I'm trying to connect a #4 THHN stranded to a 15 terminal Suare D ground bar. Mine also says it takes up to #4 copper, but the reality is no way, it's just too tight. I don't want to drill out the hole. Is that a Square D lug adapter? If so, can you give me the model #? I can only find neutral lugs, not ground lugs for Square D.
U are awesome .❤ happy new year 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
I just fried some pork chops sandwiches and there is someone behind you
This is great!
I get confused with ground rods. My main panel in on a pole by the road, it has ground bars. My shack has a sub panel and I have heard some say put a ground rod in the ground there too others say not to connect to it ... others use the term "ground loop". Maybe some info on that..????
I have a partially installed subpanel into a garage
with only 3 #2 wires buried deep. Do I drive 2 ground rods and connect ground wire to a separate ground bar along with the bare ground wires. Can't dig up the concrete to run a 4th wire from main to sub.
Best video 👍.
I have 2 separate meters with 2 main panels for a 2 family house. Now I use it as one family and closed one meter/account. So I want to convert one of panels as Sub-panel. Do I need to get additional ground bar for this converted sub panel? It’s in same house and 2 panels next to each other and they are all connected to metal conduit, then to the ground. Thanks 🙏
So if I'm adding a grounding rod and a ground bar to a panel to a house that never had grounds do I run wire from neutral bar to ground bar?
I am adding a breaker on my panel, but I see no ground bus bar. Only two neutral bus bar. What should I do with my ground wire? should I put both my ground wire and the neutral wire onto the neutral bus bar?
Is it possible to install a second ground bar? Is it dangerous or against code?