The REAL Pilot Mistake That Got Viktoria Killed!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- Viktoria was a new flight instructor and unfortunately made a tragic pilot mistake that resulted in her death. However, her student and another person on the plane managed to survive.
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I think Viktoria's first mistake was to have someone who had never been in a plane before have the controls for takeoff. That just seems not a good idea. For his first flight he should just sit there and watch and get used to being airborne. Maybe touch the controls when the plane is flying straight and level at altitude, but only for a minute or two. Having him take the plane off the ground? Hmm.
Agree. Before I ever let my daughter sit in the drivers seat of a car and touch the steering wheel when learning to drive, I told her she should just watch how I and her mother drive a car and pay close attention. I would expect that the degree of caution for learning how to fly should be at least as high as for learning how to drive a car.
@@samuelweir5985it’s very normal for instructors to do this. I did the same with every student I had as an instructor.
Yep! Things happen fast in aviation. So did this crash! It was an absolute error from the FI
I agree 100%. She paid with her life for what I think was a foolish decision. I find this one hard to understand.
Bo should have been in the rear seat
It still baffles me that you can be a CFI when you yourself are still relatively new to flying.
Air Force does it with FAIPs 🤷♂️
And somewhat new to being an adult.
It does me too. It’s not just knowing how to fly it’s having the knowledge of years of experience that really educate you. I think it’s true for anyone doing any job. You can be educated but experience is where you really learn.
@@albeit1this is how aviation works and it has worked fine for 50 plus years. I was an instructor at 21, that was 32 years ago. The young ones are usually the better instructors, still fresh from learning everything.
200 hours is enough hours of experience!
Ex instructor from the UK here, on the first flight experience flight there was no contact on the controls from the student until the aircraft was at cruise height (and properly trimmed) and then primarily to indicate how sensitive the controls were. At height any tendency towards ham-fistedness can be easily dealt with.
I remember my very first Flight lesson. (1983) My instructor said to me. "You look, listen and I do, when we start rolling, you will touch the controls I teach you with One finger of each hand when I tell you to". We took off, flew straight to the practice area. (Me following his pointers) Then we flew back to the Airport, landed. (Me, touching controls with just One finger) When we finished the flight and shut down the engine, his first question was; "Did you noticed what little to none the energy needed to operate the control(?) and the reaction of the aircraft(?)........Only then I understood the reason of that first Lesson. ( I Soloed at my 10hr) Now 66, still flying, never had any Incidents).
I am am avid aviation follower, not a pilot. Thank you for discussing the sensitivity of flight controls. I somehow envisioned the control yoke as having a more positive feel, like an automobile's steering wheel.
Well, good for you😴
On my first flight in an old Cessna 150 my instructor started by doing a thorough pre-flight then taxied out did a run-up and lined up on the runway. Talked me through the take-off then started the take-off roll. Just after the airspeed came alive he said "you have it" gave me a little coaching and the airplane just flew off. When we got some altitude he got it trimmed up and said "you have it" again and let me try to fly it straight and level. We were everything but straight and level. Now it said, "just take your hands off". To my amazement the airplane was straight and level within a few seconds. To be sure, I wasn't anything like Bo.
On my 1st flight the instructor told me to touch the pedals lightly and the control wheel lightly so I could feel what he was doing as we took off. He explained each step of what would occur before we took off. Once in the air and out in the practice area north of Lake Lewisville, in TX he had me still touch the controls lightly and I followed along with his control inputs. He eventually let me have control of the airplane and practice what I just had learned for the rest of the flight. Upon landing back at Addison, he took control of the 152 and I again was lightly touching the controls as he worked the radio and landed the airplane. He was a great instructor and his method in teaching was excellent for me to learn.
@@jingle1161 he's not bragging, but simply pointing out the importance of what he learned.
In my 25+ years of being a commercial, single/multi engine IFR-rated pilot and a Citation 525 type rating, I have to say I’ve learned most from senior instructors with experience under their belt. We need to have more senior instructors training students.
Give me an old, harsh, Krusty white man with 4 billion hours any day.
They can't fly anymore because they use too much cannabis and alcohol in their old age to get by day to day. You'll be there some day.
Also on the 525. Yeah I’m working g on the cfi thing. Blythe problem is that I’m constantly flying for hire and have little time to actually train to be a cfi. And yes, writtens for FOI, CFI, CFII are all done. It’s just a time constraint thing at this point.
@@mowtivatedmechanic1172 why bother with the CFI? Just bypass to the ATP
Totally agree. I had a friend who learnt to fly with me in the 80s.I did not think he was a good pilot or technical savy. He became a CFI and was moving through the paces. He was killed flying with a traffic reporter, spun the airplane in IMC. A. He should have picked a different career choice. B. he should have never been a CFI. Not sure how this is allowed to happen
Here’s what I don’t understand. I have a CDL and now that I’m a driver I understand someone could teach me how to drive that truck with several months of hours under their belt but that’s not what happened. The instructors had 15 and 20 years experience driving trucks and the one thing that I learned from them in the very beginning in our pre-driving school hours was things not to do . and we had it drilled into our brains we may not get injured in an accident, but we definitely have the capability of killing many people in such a heavy piece of equipment . it was very sobering and put us in the right frame of mind to get behind the wheel of a big rig .when I got in the driver seat and there can only be one driver and there’s no controls on the right side obviously, I got five minutes of don’t do this. Don’t do that to me very carefully I’m gonna talk you along, how is it that someone can be an instructor which I understand is possible with so little life experience I think a much more experienced pilot would’ve said “the one thing you cannot do is pull back on too far on takeoff… or we will crash and die” Seems like an absolutely critical conversation.
As an instructor, I had students practice stalls above 3000 feet in case the student kicked the rudder and put us into a spin in which the aircraft would lose far more altitude than would be lost in a simple stall.
@@billwalker917
In a Cessna 150, you don’t have to “kick” the rudder at all. A takeoff and departure stall requires good right rudder to keep the ball centered. Fail to keep enough right rudder, allowing the ball move left, and the stall will automatically snap left into the beginning of a spin. This is why I loved the 150. It really taught rudder control.
You talk like you’ve never flown one.
“Kick” the rudder. Oh man.
At what point? My instructor did stalls and spins on my second flight.
@@triggerpointtechnology My experience in 150 training, stalls/spins (in Canada), it was hard to get it spin without stomping the rudder. Both wings would stall together ALMOST always. Tame. Well designed craft. NOT always, not 100% but most of the time. Instructors teaching spin recovery don't want to waste time. They make you 'kick'.
@@press2701 Yes, because it was designed to not spin.
@@triggerpointtechnologyanother keyboard expert
Allowing an 18-year-old nervous kid to handle the controls on the takeoff of his very first flight seems like a supremely bad idea. And if he "locked up" pulling the wheel back, there's nothing she's going to be able to do about it. I've heard stories from CFI's about having to punch a physically strong student in the face to snap them out of a panic trance, with their arms locked up, pushing full forward on the yoke.
I couldn't agree more and this seems like a terribly bad place to transfer control of the aircraft.
Can’t believe the cfi would let a first timer do takeoff without at least one demo by the cfi. Unbelievable….
@@sawdust466 That's how they did it at local flight school I went to Westwing flight school at Deer Valley Airport Phoenix Arizona. I took a intro flight had me taxi a few times up and back to learn how to use the peddles then run up check list we went over passing controls then right to the runway. 172 almost flies itself he told me when it hits 60 knots give it little back pressure maintain 60 knots and no more then 30 deg on the horizon instrument. I had little trouble with countering the torque from the prop he put in little rudder pressure to help me weird feeling that torque like pulling you to one side. He had me bank some told me to watch the compass until we got on the angle the tower wanted us on to depart the class D. We did some circles over Lake Pleasant if you know the Phoenix area big lake north of Phoenix. He took control after I did a couple of circles we got back into the pattern and he landed. It was a group on $99 the instructor was a young kid about 18 he was just about to go to the airline he said but housing crash happend this was 2010.
@@sawdust466 thats how they did it at my school 30 years ago
I’ve heard it, too, from a high level examiner. Put someones lights out.
Nice... I love how you break these down. I am a private pilot who flew to the Bahamas from Maryland as the "senior" pilot with a buddy that owned a P38-181 and less hours than, and I had about 100 hours, no instrument rating and no other experience. We lived. Then I flew a round trip from the Midwest to Maryland in January. Got within an hour drive before before winter storm met me. The rental FBO demanded I return the aircraft or pay the fees for the several winter storm days ahead. I refused, paid the fees, and told them they should never pressure pilots to endanger themselves or the public like they tried to me. I have never flown since. I know I don't fly enough to stay safe, and when I fly now, I pay a flight instructor to fly with me as copilot. I am so thankful I survived a few close calls and suggest other private pilots that don't fly often to do the same. As a side note, military pilots are safer because they MUST FOLLOW SAFETY PROTOCOLS or they can't fly. Private pilots can do as they want and must be better pilots on their own. If not, we know the results. Thank you for such professional reporting that isn't available in the civilian world.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
Regarding the first story, I'm calling lying BS on Bo and Ashton. My bet is that Bo panicked and did not release control which overpowered Victoria. I've had that same opinion since I first heard this story and nothing has convinced me otherwise.
This makes the most sense to me.
I also question why you would never take your friend flying just to experience that with your friend.
It´s irrelevant, Victoria should not have invited him to touch the controls during take-off. That is the whole story.
A friend of mine got his cfi and invited me to get my pl. I know him for 20 years. We rode motorcycles together and He is a dangerous rider and would show off. I considered taking his offer but constantly thought, he's going to try and show off and get me killed. So I went to fly with him! Just kidding. He is actually flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong today for UPS. Happy for the dear fellow but I don't trust him.🎉
David is/was an over confident idiot
I am a CFI, I never let someone who has never flown do the take off. Ever.
They get control ONLY after a thorough briefing and at altitude (over 2000ft agl).
Many years back I did a short flight experience in a DH82 Tiger Moth. My veteran flight instructor was very clear in the pre flight briefing - he would do the take off and landing and I was to keep my hands and feet well clear of the controls. Once established in cruise I was allowed to handle the joystick shadowing his movements as performed simple, gentle manoeuveres to get the feel of it. He then said he would hand to joystick solely to me but he would handle any throttle or rudder inputs that may be needed. That seemed a very a very sensible way to do things.The next twenty minutes were delightful as I learnt to relax, stop hanging on to the joystick, realise how light the controls were and to anticipate when control inputs would be required to avoid over compensating. To me that as a much better way of introducing a novice to flying.
@@flexairz These two guys, their statements, might not be as trustworthy as some limp-wristers automatically want to give them...
Yeah, the two most dangerous, task saturated parts of every flight are the take offs and landings. Why would you ever let someone perform the takeoff on their first flight? Plus, as the instructor, you have no idea how someone you’re seeing “in action” for the first time will handle a somewhat stressful situation. Not to say that there aren’t people who could handle it just fine, but you have no way of knowing for sure. Better to assess their capabilities in less critical phases of flight before you let them move on to the more complex phases.
@@ScortchedYFronts I might have been a bit more tactful with how I said it, but I agree that their statements seem to be rather self-serving. Without CFI Viktoria alive to give her side of the story I don't think the full truthful story will ever be known.
It seems like a completely insane thing to do. That’s a certified instructor??
Very sad stories. I am old but seeing photos of these young people so full of life and happy doing what they love and their full lives ahead of them.....I cannot really express the sadness but I feel it deep in my chest.
I always learn something from these debriefs, thanks Hoover. When I was learning to fly my instructor didn’t let me take off during the first few flights which, to me, seems very sensible. Another instructor, an ex 747 pilot, warned me that if I didn’t relinquish the controls during a critical phase of flight when he said ”I have control” he would hit me. Quite right in my opinion!
It has never happened to me, but I have also heard that it's sometimes necessary to strike a student who has locked up. If someone gets a fear or trauma reaction and goes into "fight flight or freeze" a physical jolt like that is apparently the only way to get them out of it.
If my instructor offered me the controls to take off during my very first lesson I'd look for a different instructor
Early in my student pilot career, I was literally on the runway about to take off, and I told my CFI something felt wrong and I taxied off. Gave him the airplane, and I checked my seat one more time-gave it a little push. In that moment, the little pin that was holding it in snapped in half and I went flying back. After who knows how many years, it finally gave out. That would have happened on takeoff if I hadn’t double checked it.
I’m not quite sure what clued me in that something was wrong-something subtle. But that was such a huge lesson. Always check. Always pay attention when something feels off even if you don’t initially know what it is.
+100. Gavin De Becker said in his fine book THE GIFT OF FEAR, there are two things about your _intuition_ that are ALWAYS true: It will never lie to you, and always has your best interests in mind. That little nagging feeling is something that all good pilots listen to.
Cessna Corp. lost a big lawsuit following the death on takeoff of a pilot whose seat adjuster failed. He went sliding back, lost control, and crashed. Be careful as many of these Skyhawks in use today are around 50 years old. I believe there was an AD to correct this in the older planes.
@@desertsky I'd be nervous as hell if there was only ONE lock device keeping my seat in position. Hell, i might bring my own cotter pin as a backup device.
@@desertsky yeah interesting. It must be a Cessna thing because I have had it happen to me a couple of times once as a passenger and once as a student pilot I can’t remember exactly as it was maybe 30 years ago whether the instructor took control or whether he was flying, and I was under instruction but not actually at the controls at the time, but I know it was really scary.
@@desertsky another instructor (who was a very methodical thorough guy ) as we would do our takeoff checks and When we were lined up he would actually checked the belts and would hang onto the cockpit combing and try and rock the seat back-and-forth with both feet on the rudder and brakes to confirm that everything was okay. I never forgot that and did it every time after that.
Martial arts coach here. Gauging the intelligence & experience of the student are equally important when I'm teaching a new student with a weapon. I watch their behaviour when I give my safety instructions & have even refused to teach a student that I deemed unsafe. That should be applied in training all students where the potential for fatalities exist.
Good point, she failed to evaluate this "student" when warning signs were evident. Makes me wonder why she threw safety out the window. At a point, it likely comes down to a societal issue where youth are taught to mix up ideals and safety priorities. I don't need to highlight all the degenerate teachings schools are programming these students with. It all carries over.
I soloed in 1970, retired in 2018 (30 yrs USAir/American Airbus Capt), I didn't get my CFI until I had 2000? hours, with lots of experience BEFORE becoming an instructor. During a Furlough (work layoff) I returned to being a CFII with real world (MD80) experiences to convey to my students. My journey included twin engine charter flying (CE310, 402,, 421, MU2, BE90/100, Metroliner, B737, B757, B767I, CRJ200/700, EMB190) ...... and I loved teaching ......... never ever did stalls at low altitude. RIP fellow pilots ......... fly safe, fly smart, stay current, make every flight a learning experience.
MU2? Oh you’re a brave one. Spoilerons instead of ailerons?
@@mowtivatedmechanic1172 Hoover, rehashing past smashups to boost your subscribers and likes is questionable.
@@mowtivatedmechanic1172 I love the MU2. Great airplane in the right hands.
Congratulations on all that experience. I don’t fly anymore myself as finished up my career flying a Cessna Golden Eagle 421B but I still study accidents as it was a constant habit I had that kept me aware of the errors to stay safe. Former students or other pilots and I still discuss them. I always told my students to follow the Air Safety Foundation courses of the AOPA. I also told them to check out the list of accidents at their destination airport in their type aircraft. The airport site on the AOPA will reveal this but you have to dig for it.
@@gregoryknox4444 You are a rarity - you flew the Metroliner and are still here to tell people about it!
The problem with letting the student take the controls for take off is as it was his first flight, he would not be aware how little pressure on the controls would raise the nose enough to take off. It would have been better to take off, then take the controls, to appreciate how little pressure was needed, to better use that knowledge on takeoff later
Not the only problem… as the plane begins to take off… they will pull on the yoke attempting to hold themselves in position as the plane pitches up.
I the Robinson it is prohibited to let someone hold the controls without documented instruction.
If no instruction, the controls must be removed.
@@Terminator2310 I'm sorry that's just not true on a Cessna 172. It takes significant force to raise that nose. The pressure is not light at all and it's designed that way. Now if it was a sport plane like an RV then yeah there's very little stick force but these pigs are designed to be heavy on the controls in pitch not so much in roll, but they are pitch heavy especially if you have a 10° of takeoff flaps, And that's a fact.
Yes it can take a long time to master it. It really depends on the person. Bad idea to let a newbie do the takeoff for the first time.
@@santiagobond964 it’s not always a bad idea to let a student take off on the first flight. It’s called flight instruction for a reason. It is a bad idea to not brief the takeoff and discuss the common errors before the actual take off and flight.
@@santiagobond964I'm not a pilot. I would think a new trainee would be on a flight simulator before ever attempting a takeoff in a real plane. Not the case?
200 hours doesn't seem like enough time to be able to instruct others. If you get your drivers license at 16 and drive a half hour every day you will have around 200 hours of driving experience when you turn 17 but would you really want that person to teach others to drive a car?
you are not a pilot, I assume
@FlyingCsongor You assume correctly. However I do drive heavy machinery and our training was about 120 hours and most instructors have over 7000 hours on hydrolic vehicles before they start teaching.
@FlyingCsongor how does that address his point?
Its more than enough time to be a CFI. As a current student pilot I would rather fly with a 250TT CFI whos entire time is spent hand flying small GA aircraft, than a 10kTT airline captain that hasn't hand flown a GA aircraft this decade. To become a CFI a pilot has to pass several check rides and writtens to get to where they are at.
Personally, I found flying to be way easier than driving. No traffic for one, no streets to navigate, little to no traffic, just clear airspace...as a student. Except the possibility of equipment failure.
I remember very well, when I was in flight training, one of my first instructors, his name is Lyle explained to me the transfer of controls. You have the airplane, I have the airplane, my airplane, your airplane but what I remember most was that he said to me if I say "my airplane" and you don't let go, I am going to punch you in the side of your head, It's that important! He made the point very clear to me.
One eye Lyle?
@@lauran3244 No, He had two eyes and a solid fist! Nah, he was a good guy! He taught me how to easily land a 172 by safely letting me dive, bounce and skip till I could do it comfortably and stabilized. In the 90's when I was renting a 172 wet for $65.00 an hour. Crazy..
@@PilotInCommand777 sounds like he was a great CFI. I was really lucky too with mine. Miss him lots.
On my 3rd GA lesson, i had a last moment substitute instructor. I liked her, because it seemed like she was letting me do SO MUCH MORE by myself than my regular cfi. I was really enjoying the freedom. Also, my first time in a 172!!!
She then had me fly over to a completely new airport, and set up for a crosswind landing there. I nailed the setup and final, and landed. I'll never forget what she said, "Wow! Great job, those winds are 12 gusting to 15, and you greased it."
Truthfully, i was still in a bit of frozen cold sweat shock. I'd never done ANY crosswind landings at all yet! I was still calming myself down inside for awhile on that. LOL.
We returned, debriefed and filled out the logbook and she sort of gasped, she had thought i was a different student much further along than my 2 lessons. She signed it and congratulated me again on a great landing 1. In a totally new airplane , id only flown in the 150 prior... And 2, for the crazy turbulent crosswind landing she had me do. She wrote some nice words in my book.
She laughed and apologized for her confusion but said i did a great job.
Man, there were moments during that landing that i was sure i would lose it... We were yawing and it was bumpy air... My original instructorsnwords were loud in my head. "Light grip on the controls... Lighter than you think!!" And i honestly believed that saved us!...But it all turned out great and really boosted my confidence.
That’s pretty cool. But it does illustrate the potential issue with switching instructors last min. They don’t know the student and their level of proficiency, areas of strength and weakness. I think it can be great to get a variety of instruction. I also flew with a few instructors and learned something unique from all of them.
But her mixing you up with a more experienced student could be quite dangerous if she’s not super vigilant with every student regardless.
@@lyingcat9022 I relived a few of the more sketchy moments in that landing many many times over subsequent years, at that odd moment when you are just about to fall asleep, and it would suddenly 'play', and shake me up all over again! LOL... That's how close to losing control I was... thank God for my other instructor constantly being on me about having a 'light' grip. I truly think that saved our lives.
yikes.. being a CFI is dangerous.. I think that initial conversation with the student is key
Glad you didn’t experience an incident due to her incompetence. She could have been the reason you were unalived. 🫣
It's all fun when you actually survive... Regular cfi's won't let you do SO MUCH MORE by yourself FOR A REASON. Case in point. Safety is the nr 1 priority in flying, not a time for playing games when you don't have the knowledge, maturity and 100s of hours of experience to back it up.
I am not a pilot, and just realized why I watch Hoover explain how humans become complicit which can lead to fatalities. I also work in the air, as a steeplejack. I have been climbing for over 55 years, and his ability to break down the process helps me in my profession. Thank you for your military service and your channel!
I feel dizzy by just standing on the chair. How you do what you do is just crazy. Mad respect for your job.
My instructor on an introductory flight made transfer of controls very clear to me and we briefed it well beforehand. I can see how important it is. When it was time to approach and land he said “I have the flight controls” I said “you have the flight controls” and made sure I wasn’t touching the yoke or rudder pedals. Easy for a beginner to understand.
Exactly what is done before surgery.
NTSB report "Though part of the flight lesson syllabus included instruction on the positive exchange of flight controls, the student pilot could not recall what instruction the flight instructor gave him regarding the takeoff" So, she did instruct him on exchanging flight controls. My guess is that he locked up in fear and she could not overpower him.
@@bills6093 I should think it would be better to REHEARSE it while still on the ground. And multiple times--once in the stand, once on the runup, even once on the runway before rolling. At least that's what my CFI did on the first flight.
Literally the first thing my instructor did on my first lesson before letting me control the plane was to practice handing over control so he knew I was comfortable with it. As we did this a few times it became a natural thing to release the controls when he confirmed taking control and also to take my feet off the pedals. A simple process but one that is critical to understand and be comfortable with as a student.
@@bills6093Totally agree. W/O a FDR we won't know.
I believe that he pulled back too hard as a totally unexperienced pilot, locked-up like you saod, and overpowered her.
In lieu of no FDR, at least in this case a CVR would confirm the cause, especially on what the survivors said.
The student had apparently never been in an airplane in his life. He had no concept of what a normal takeoff should look like. He had no idea what a pitch attitude for Vy should look like. The instructor should have never offered to let him perform the takeoff. She should have done the takeoff and talked as it was happening.
Tried for Vx.
She didn't have the experience to be instructing in the first place. The blind leading the blind
@@ch33chmongo17 Most civilian instructors start off with only a few hundred hours experience. Way to build experience.
Thank you again for another video with very useful lessons. Sadly at the expense of the lives of those involved.
I am a student pilot here in the UK and I clearly remember my instructor telling me in my first lesson that we would share the controls during take off so I would have a sense of how far to pull the yoke, etc (and shortly after he said "you have the controls"). The preflight briefing was thorough too.
The understanding that the angle of attack is critical at all stages of flying was always made clear. As Blancolirio always says, you can stall a plane at any speed, but only one critical angle of attack.
With 200 hours or so, in my view, is too early to be a flying instructor. Experience, professionalism and knowledge, not only knowledge, in my view, makes a better instructor.
The second case, highlighted by Hoover, seems to indicate that the instructor wasn't adhering to the school protocols, which clearly placed the student lives at unnecessary risks.
I have been training on a PA28, and want to practice stall spin recovery in October. Certainly not going to do that on the piper, so I booked the lessons on the Slingsby T67M 260. The instructors are ex RAF pilots and the aircraft is appropriate for aerobatics. As a student pilots I certainly don't want to take unnecessary risks. And thanks to the likes of Hoover and Blancolirio I learn a lot to try to avoid them.
Thanks again.
Glauco
Regarding the fatal crash that involved the lady named Brenda, I worked for a short time at the same flight school in Charleston, WV at CRW. I wasn’t there the day of the crash but the day after. She was a nice lady and her husband was a retired CFI that I received some early training from. He taught me a lot about disabling a student to prevent a crash. I had to actually knock a students hand off a throttle while I was saving a screwed up landing. Brenda’s accident was a really sad event and the student survived but had a lot of injuries. I viewed the plane also. The engine was in their lap. These little planes aren’t much more than Pepsi cans in a crash. Survival is slim in a crash with them. RIP Brenda. Her husband Ernie dearly loved her and the loss was hard on him.
I never let my initial students handle take offs or landings until they mastered flying the aircraft at altitude.
I usually let them take off on the first flight if the winds are very light. You can bet I am also on the controls, though, at least with a light touch, and I will warn them that I might take control back at any time and if I do, they need to immediately LET GO of the controls.
Instructors are 40 years old or older. She was not an instructor.
‘Mastered’? How many years do you make them only fly in the cruise?
Seems like a prudent and obvious safety protocol. Poor girl was just too inexperience to grasp how bad an idea that was.
Normal to have them follow along controls but not input for takeoff and landing.
Let me get this straight. A 22 year old novice pilot is the instructor of a nervous 18 year old kid who has *never even been in a plane before* and has him perform the takeoff on his first flight? What could go wrong? They say speed kills. Well so does *stupidity* . And that's what this was.
Agreed. It seems careless and so avoidable.
not a novice pilot. This was a properly authorized flight instructor who had received the requisite training, passed 5 FAA written exams, 4 oral exams and 4 practical tests in order to receive that authorization.
The student was a novice.
I have a feeling Viktoria was so caught up in speed-lining her flight experience on social media... that safety became less of a concern. Such a horrible tragedy--so young and with so much life ahead... cut short by negligence. I can't even imagine how her parents and possible boyfriend were devastated by this.
@@skyboy1956 Twenty two year olds have no business being flight instructors. There should be an age requirement.
@@Bob31415 the age requirement is 18.
Why become a flight instructor in only three years of flying? Regardless of hours flown and all the studying, I would want a flight instructor to have more experience.
The other deceased instructor had 4000 hours of time flying.
But hours flown are experience- if two pilots have the same amount of flight hours, they have roughly the same amount of experience. I say roughly because things like the conditions they've flown in, how many times they've taken off and landed, where they've taken off and landed, etc. can of course vary. I agree with you- flight hours shouldn't be all that matters- but they should matter none the less. It's definitely a metric they should track, and I would want to know my instructors flight hours. That said- what metric should they track- because if it's just time since you got your license- that could mean a lot, or it could mean nothing. Depends on what you've been doing with all that time. If there was some way to ensure that instructors had experiences like flying in bad conditions, flying with mechanical issues on the plane, taking off and landing at tricky airports, etc.- that would be awesome, but we have no way of tracking that stuff as far as I know. I mean you could on a pilot-by-pilot basis I guess- but then you have to really trust someone to scrutinize these candidates and makes sure only the right ppl get through to become instructors. Maybe that's what we need- to hold whoever decides who gets to be an instructor and who doesn't accountable for some of the decisions they make.
@@stoneysdead689 NOPE!!!! Same hours does NOT mean same experience. Flying around the same airport (doing flight instruction) is NOT the same as flying across the country. It’s very different flying.
You need LIFE experience to teach people! You need to judge others. You need to anticipate their behavior and react accordingly. You need leadership skill and know how to be in command in stressful situations. You need to be an authority figure. You need to be able to communicate clearly and quickly.
I'm over 40 and a former teacher and quite sure I would test a 20 year old girl very well before I would trust her with my life. She would have to be quite an old soul to make me feel safe with her.
@@miskatonic6210 Exactly. Flying is now being advertised as this 'fun' experience, when in reality it's very dangerous and needs to be taken seriously. You're not doing flying lessons to 'have fun', you're there to learn, observe, pay attention and practice. Like driving lessons. I'd go as far as saying piloting (or driving) is never a time for fun and games; you need to be focused and in control of your instruments, aware of your surroundings, personal ability and limitations at all times. It's a serious responsibility and anything can happen at any time. People get callous and careless and die. Every day I see people driving & texting, eating, literally doing their make-up or being half asleep on the road, it's no surprise almost 50k people die yearly in traffic in the US alone.
Why on earth would she allow a person with no flying training what so ever to partially preform a take off!, I had 7 hours of training in the 90's in Australia and instructors never let a first time student preform a partial takeoff! A tragic waste of a young life!
You're right, I'm an Australian ppl and from memory it was also a few hours before even being able to mimic the controls on take off.
This is actually quite normal. If you go into most FBOs and ask for a Discovery Flight, in most cases you will do the takeoff. I did. However, the CFI has their hands on the yoke and is ready to correct any issues you may have. They7 also coach you on exactly what to do. Not sure how this got away from her unless the student panicked and had a death grip on the yoke. I have heard stories of CFI punching students in the face in such a scenario to get them to let go of the controls before they crashed the plane.
@@gawebm Still very risky, you never know if the student with zero experience is going freak out and at takeoff it is split second to correct errors. I would even say doing something like that is dangerously reckless.
@gawebm
Normal my rear end. That is lunacy and disregard for your own life
That was my VERY first thought when I heard that too.
No one on that aircraft had enough experience to be teaching anyone anything about flying. The FAA needs to completely revamp their idea on training and instructing
No more children pilots
And no flights without addiquite insurance, and certified hardware😢 and experience, this hobbie is too costly to screw up
No, not at all. The 1500 hour rule is bad enough. Signifigantly increasing the hours needed to be a CFI would criple pilot training without increasing safety. Remember, one CFI in the video had 4000 hours.
As a retired commercial pilot, I greatly applaud the focus you put on basic fundamentals that we have been taught early in flight training and why they are so important in our everyday airmanship. Thank you.
I wonder why she had the first-time student attempt the takeoff? I always have the student go up with me the first time and then do a little airwork. I show them how to land and then either wait until the next lesson or taxiback and let the student try a takeoff (with my hands almost touching the controls).
I learned my lesson on my very first Paid instructor gig. A senior American captain wanted to go up in a little Cherokee to see if it would be a good plane for his young son to use for flight training. The captain had never flown a Cherokee. I was in awe, but he did want me to do the takeoff. we did some airwork, and he of course was a solid pilot; everything coordinated, smooth, and under control. I was just sitting in the right seat with my arms folded answering a few questions and admiring his handling. It came time for the landing and he was coming in perfectly, air speed stable, VASI lined up perfectly, and I'm just sitting there taking at all in. Then as we crossed the threshold, to touchdown, BOING!; no flare, he landed on the nose wheel and the plane bounced back into the air. We recovered nicely and landed. "Gosh, I landed on the nosewhee. Didn't I?" was all he said. For me it was a great first lesson in being an instructor; fly the plane regardless of who the student is.
I had a similar experience where I was checking out an experienced 737 pilot to rent our Arrow and fly his family to the Bahamas.
He flared about 50 in the air and came dam close to stall speed. I thought he was doing great right up to the unexpected high flare.
To ask someone who is best classified as a prospective student pilot, it was INSANE to have the "student" do the take off. INSANE. I have an Van's RV7 and even with an experienced pilot, but one without RV Time, I have them take the stick on their finger tips to first take control, NOT TO GRAB THE STICK, just for this kind of fiasco. Very sad.
I’m an instructor and I wouldn’t let a cadet near the controls on takeoff and landing for the first three or more flights, and I don’t know any instructors who would. It’s great sharing the passion but this is needlessly reckless. Sorry. RIP
I did with every one of my students. My instructor did it with me. Every one of the other instructors I know did the same. If you didn’t let them do those things the first 3 flights, to me it indicates you are not confident enough or you were a “let me show you” kind of instructor, which is wasting money for the student. The student pays money to learn how to fly hands on. Not to watch you fly.
I did the take-off and climb out on my first lesson in a Cessna 152. Throughout my training, I understood when my instructor verbalized which of us was in control of the controls.
@@cocostrayer6667 exactly. That’s how it’s supposed to work.
If Bo may not have even flown commercially, he could not have any concept of flying. No way I would give the controls to him on the first flight. Sad stories.
So true.
I am a student pilot and my instructor is in 60s. One thing I love about him is that he is not a risk taker with my life or his. There is no way that we would ever perform practice maneuvers/stalls at low altitude, EVER. He also made it very clear to me early on that, at a minimum, I should always be above 1500 ft just in case I ever flew with a different instructor. We are always between 3500 and 4500 ft. I absolutely love him❤
I got my private license in 1984 with the same CFI start to finish. He was a young guy still in college but sharp and calm. A couple times I had a substitute CFI which was fine. That was my introduction to individual differences from their own experiences. My normal CFI was from forested northern Minnesota so short field landings with a lot of slip practice. Another had crashed twice in the mountains of Colorado so picking a "landing" spot and emergency handling were a big priority as was having enough fuel.
After I got my license I started getting checked out in Cessnas which was totally different from the Piper Tomahawk or Archer II. Each instructor added his own wisdom to add onto my skill building. Plus the small town FBOs had cheaper plane rental and CFI charge.
It seems absurd to me to have a first flight person do the takeoff. At least get them to a safe altitude and see if they have a smidgen of tactile instinct. Some people have none and exert too much force on everything they do. What she did is, "hi nice to meet you, I am gonna put my life into your hands."
@@shawnas.4459 pilots are bad people
Thank you Hoover and Sticks for another look into these two tragic mishaps, my prayers are always with those involved, you put your heart into these debriefs with the knowledge on how to keep remembering to be safe while flying. I enjoy learning from you and look forward to many more videos.
Oh my goodness, when I was reading this my tired brain thought it said “Thank you Your Honor and sticks…”. and I thought “there’s gonna be a huge in this one?!” Hahahaha 🤣
@@N.A.0901 Too funny!
Why does a student have to operate the plane on their first setting in the machine?
He need to ride and watch several times. This was crazy!
They don't have to be passive through the flight. They can be 'on the controls', feeling the movements of the yoke through takeoff, and then be given the opportunity to do straight an level flight, then taken through banking, keeping the aircraft balanced, in the first flight. But having the instructor give a first time flier - not just first time student - control on takeoff is batshit crazy IMO. Have instructors on this very page got away with it? Maybe. Have instructors died making this mistake? Also yes.
why not? you can't learn without doing. takeoff is easy.
Back in my CFI days I did many Discovery flights, which is just a short intro flight more than a lesson, and would let people do a good portion of the flying. One caveat is that I was never off the controls myself below 1000 feet. Another thing I always did was brief the newbie that they should have two fingers of one hand on the controls, with the pressure of holding an egg. Any more than this with new pilots leads to the “death grip” that comes with nerves. It also means I can physically assume control at any moment. I also handled all the rudder and throttle inputs, along with anything else in the plane. Some people are naturally more nervous than others, and the point is to encourage them to be part of the flight without task saturating them, and also to build a foundation of being light and easy on the controls while still being intentional. I also used specific language, like “ok now ease back on the yoke” instead of “pull up”.
Unfortunately riding and watching doesn’t give the tactile feeling necessary to learn, otherwise people could learn to drive just watching car racing on tv.
@@As_A________Commenter I do much as you do. 2-fingers, I demonstrate the plane flies fine when pitch/power and trim are set, and they don't need to overcontrol it.
NEVER say pull back, but rather letting it fly when it's ready, easing in just enough back pressure to lift off.
The kid suddenly not remembering anything is highly suspect. He clearly panicked and pulled back when she tried to push forward.
People have spoken of having lost memories for horrific events for which they had no blame. I understand the convenience of it for some in circumstances, but I wouldn't use that response as any sort of confirmation.
Hoover, when you talk, I listen even thought I have been flying almost twice as long as you have been alive. And anyone who flew the F-15 has my respect. I grew up in STL and was a commuter airline pilot 1973-1979 flying into and out of STL where the McDonnell plant was located. In this capacity, I routinely got to watch F-15s doing production test flights with an F-4 as a chase plane. The difference in performance between those two airplanes was nothing less than astounding. Add to that, the F-15, at last count, was 104-0 in air to air combat. And THIS is the airplane you flew.
Another big problem is these kids are more Instagram influencers than they are Pilots. They are distracted by their cameras. They are performing. They should be 100% focused on flying 🤦♀️
Except this wasn't the problem. Are you roo old to be able to think?
@@ninjalectualx you don’t know that. Without the video maybe she wouldn’t have been giving him such control so early. Content.
@@ninjalectualx I disagree with you I bet all her cameras was in place and working properly but failed to give proper instruction on positive transfer of flight controls and the cameras are a huge distraction even before take off. Some of these women are so into the cameras I watched one women that was lost and could not find the airport she took off from and you could see the air port in the one camera over her left shoulder but she looked hot up on till she flu the Debonair plane into the ground I think it was like 500 miles per hour she was clueless about the auto pilot but could work them cameras. The FAA needs to get these cameras out of the cockpit and just fly the damn plan and never mind social media
Seems that’s why most girls get into flying these days in particular
@@abingdonboyits why most girls do anything these days...
I had a dear friend die in the same situation as Alexis. He was re-certifying and his incompetent flight instructor put him in a stall too low to the ground. They were both killed. He left a wife and five children. Even more tragedy would come from this crash. Their youngest and only son never got over the loss of his father and seven years later at the age on eighteen he took his life. How could this have been avoided? I wish I knew. I think that after watching this video and the tragedy of what happened to my friend maybe there needs to be more and better oversight of flight instructors? All terrible tragedies. RIP to all. Thanks for bringing this to light.
I'd be interested in knowing the date and location where this occurred ? I'm curious as to what really happened.
No no no Hoover, David has clearly disregarded not only his employer's guidance (code of conduct for certain procedures) but the general regulations for light aircrafts practicing low altitude manouvers. I don't care how much hours he spent flying or his age or he was about to retire. He have put himself and his student pilot at risk for what? Saving time on climbing to higher altitude? This has killed him an his young student. I cannot understand why it is OK to defend his actions or paint him as "hmm we should be forgiving because...". He was supposed to follow the regulations to the letter as any instructor must (and expected from people who teach)! Did he do that? No. He deviated to save time and in the process he killed himself and a young person.
Hoover makes a point not trash people, even if they deserve it. Clearly David was reckless by any normal safety of flight metric. His "normalization of deviance" got the student killed. There is no other possible interpretation of this.
100% agree ... Hoover is being overly generous ... the annoying thing is that the risk was unnecessary, just follow instructions and do it right.
@@gawebm Good point
@@rackbites Totally agree - stalling or steep turns with a student at even 1500ft AGL seems very risky. Such a tragic loss of two lives which was totally unnecessary. The rules were written in blood, and it's a real shame to ignore them.
To a pilot, but just someone who has enjoyed flying with a few friends over the years. I am quite certain that none of those flights had us under 1500 outside take offs and landings.
No 110 pound young woman is going to disable a 200 plus pound man who has panicked and frozen on the controls especially in a 3 second period. She shouldn’t have been placed in this circumstance with two big men and one nervous about never flying before. On her part she shouldn’t have let him have the controls on his first flight of his life.
I remember my flight instructor telling me a story once, he was instructing a big cop. On final the cop completely froze, still with his hands on the control, hollering at him didn't work, the instructor's took his index finger and poked him in the eye, that worked, the cop flinched, snapped out of it, and the instructor was able to get control of the plane.
She should have used the sim to give him a sense of the operations
I was allowed to pull controls on my first flight/take off but I don’t recall what briefing I received before that
Not sure if it would have been enough, but Cessnas have a spot under the panel you can actually push with your foot (much more leverage and strength) to push the yoke forward
@@johnolexa1543My instructor told me to put my whole hand over the students eyes and they will reach up with both hands to remove it thus release the controls. I never had to try/test it.
IMHO one of the bigger issues at play here is the "1500 hour" rule, which almost forces people who are not very good instructors to instruct to build hours for the airlines. If she had been allowed to do a Type Rating and fly as an FO at 250 hours, she would still be alive today.
It's insane to think a 22yo 'flight instructor' is going to be good or safe. 200 hrs of flying time and able to kill other people? Aviation is cooked!
As a flight instructor I would never have let the student complete the take off on the first flight. It's supposed to be a familiarization flight.
My thoughts exactly, I could see letting a student shadow on controls (with a thorough briefing of course) but actually performing the takeoff is just irresponsible in my opinion
(I’m not a CFI, just a commercial student currently just thought I’d add my 2 cents)
Totally agree, first flight, let the student enjoy watching instructor take-off. Once in the local flying area then demonstrate controls and let student repeat. Was instructor in UK and did 1600 hrs instructing before moving to airline. No accidents or incidents with my students ( or as solo graduates). Now I am captain A350.
@@rsambrook well, my experience was different. The whole reason I fell in love with and got obsessed with flying was a flight instructor took me up and he allowed me to take off from the get-go. He calmly explained to me what to do and what to expect.
I've known a lot of instructors who do that. My problem is, as the passenger in the back supposedly said, was she insisted on doing the takeoff roll and then right before the plane was ready to rotate, she handed the controls over to this guy who had no idea what was happening. And I'm sure he immediately thought, " yank the wheel back so we can take off".
That's my issue with this whole thing.
@@johnmackenzie5136 @rsambrook well, my experience was different. The whole reason I fell in love with and got obsessed with flying was a flight instructor took me up and he allowed me to take off from the get-go. He calmly explained to me what to do and what to expect.
I've known a lot of instructors who do that. My problem is, as the passenger in the back supposedly said, was she insisted on doing the takeoff roll and then right before the plane was ready to rotate, she handed the controls over to this guy who had no idea what was happening. And I'm sure he immediately thought, " yank the wheel back so we can take off".
That's my issue with this whole thing.
@@johnmackenzie5136 @rsambrook well, my experience was different. The whole reason I fell in love with and got obsessed with flying was a flight instructor took me up and he allowed me to take off from the get-go. He calmly explained to me what to do and what to expect.
I've known a lot of instructors who do that. My problem is, as the passenger in the back supposedly said, was she insisted on doing the takeoff roll and then right before the plane was ready to rotate, she handed the controls over to this guy who had no idea what was happening. And I'm sure he immediately thought, " yank the wheel back so we can take off".
That's my issue with this whole thing.
New student here (in ground school),and all these debrief videos are FREAKING the hell out of me!! This flying planes thing seems like a bad idea. I mean I have to check all my stuff,the plane (maintenance history),the flight school standards and operations and now the instructors credentials and history and if there chair is locked?!! Good GOD what else???
No need to be freaked out. But take this training with the respect that it's due. Aviation is great, but I'd say you need to jump in with both feet and treat it as the life long pursuit that it is.
So sad. She seemed to be very capable and hard working but no matter how old we are rarely experienced "enough" managing people and emotions. Thanks for the dedication and "we are all always learning" stance in your videos.
WTF? They let someone that has never even flown as a passenger, fly a plane? Imagine telling someone to drive your car, that had never been in a a car? This is 100x worse than that.
Not just fly but take off when they have never seen it demonstrated or even felt the controls. I just can't get my head around this, she was a disaster waiting to happen.
I have learned enough from the Pilot Debrief videos to know that I would never be a candidate to pilot any kind of aircraft. Thanks for all you do!! These videos are sometimes difficult to watch, but fascinating.
As a former Huey crewchief… I was privileged to be on many training flights with pilots of a wide variance of experience and flight hours. I learned quite a bit by being able to observe and listen to a lot of different training scenarios including night vision and instrument training where the trainee was “under the hood”, autorotations at all altitudes including while at hover, running landings, etc.. One of the MOST critical and often rehashed things was the discussion of the process of both taking and relinquishing control of the aircraft. This was even between pilots with 1000+ hours of flight time. Hard to believe this instance with a brand new student. Huge oversight by the CFI.
“Altitude is your friend” is one rule my very first flight instructor told me…
One aerobatics pilot told me his rule of thumb was "to be several mistakes high". Sounded like great advice as you can have problems back to back.
I see David's entire personality was aviation, always makes for a dangerous and sub par pilot
I had to poke a student in the eye once. We were coming in for landing I a C172… he had his arms locked forward on the yoke. He was very strong.. a plumber by trade. I was fairly strong myself but couldn’t over power him. I didn’t poke him hard… just enough to unlock the trance that he was in.
That's an interesting solution. Eye irritation usually gets a response even from someone who looks dead or unconscious. Did you think of doing that at the moment or had you thought of that earlier?
Holy sh_t
So apparently it’s one of those rare things that’s NOT better than a ‘poke in the eye.’
@@LuvBorderColliesIt was a reflex. At first, I tried (in vain) to overpower him and pull back… he was sort of in a shock/ trance state. He had been a plumber all of his life which equated to big, strong arms! He had his arms and elbows locked. I couldn’t budge the controls. I started trying to roll back the trim wheel but realized real quick that it would not work. We were only about 50’ from the ground. When my final attempt (eye poke) worked, I regained control. The landing was still a controlled crash… very hard and we bounced a few times. Nothing was damaged though and we both lived. He was fuzzy when I debriefed him and explained what happened. He didn’t want to fly anymore. I tried to explain to him that it was not abnormal to get scared on the first ever flight. I was very cautious going forward about letting new students have too much control of the plane until I was more familiar with their habits. The whole incident was 100% my fault. I was a new instructor… I gained 1000 hours worth of experience that day!
Good to know this is what's going on when "pilots" are constantly flying over our homes for "fun"
I like the live stream on replay or the other. do whichever you prefer, or mix em up. I’m here for your content and factual delivery. Information about this needs to be delivered with tact but also without softening the lesson. You do a great job of keeping the humanity of the victims and survivors while not shying away from hard truths. Tons of value here.
First story: my first thought is weight and balance = ok, critical angle of attack = that's the problem, plus a nervous pilot. I remember seeing a Mayday episode where the pilot pulled back on the controls so hard it caused a tail strike. Plane crashed 😑
Too often you see people with not enough experience obtain instructor license and become instructors. I lost a good friend to such circumstances, within 3 short years she went from never flying an airplane to being flight instructor, during one of the flights with her student they crashed and she died, student survived and sued the institution afterwards.
The first story when it just came out there was a picture of Bo, he was a big quarterback looking dude. So yeah, she had no chance to overpower his grip on controls in this short time.
It's a mistake you would only make once. Like Dan G says, there's no do overs.
With a name like “Bo”, I immediately pictured a huge jock with no neck, pulling the yoke clean out of the dashboard. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
What is so hard for me to understand is that this gal was certified to instruct.......but even if she was NOT an instructor......wouldn't her natural instincts as a pilot be to literally follow the student on the controls.....and either fully take control or to nudge the controls back to a safe attitude? My God how could she not???? I have been on many ride alongs on B-52s and airliners, riding in the jump seat.....and these pilots literally put their hand behind the other guy's hand to make sure he entered the right heading....or lowered the gear...or lowered the flaps. One guy is doing and the other is pointing......every time.
The 1,500 feet thing where I'm at says that all slow flight and stall manoeuvres must take place above 1,500 feet -- NOT that a stall may begin at 1,500 feet. The air craft must never drop below 1,500 during the entire exercise, even if a full stall develops. That why we climb to at least 2,500 AGL, especially for first timers and 3,000AGL for power on stalls. It's just common bloody sense.
How in the world do you let someone on their first ever flight perform a crucial part of the take off? Why not get in the air, fly around a bit and let him gradualy get used to the controls? And do they get some learning material, tests before actually taking part in their first flight? What a sad case... Both of them...
This was my thought as well. She was probably excited to get someone on the controls to share the experience.
@@agm65ccipthis is normal. I flew on my first flight. And I let every student fly on their first flight when I was an instructor.
This idiotstick "instructor" was only concerned with selfies and updating her social media. It's not surprising she caused a crash.
Letting the student take controls from the beginning is normal.
The pilot must be prepared to verbally command that the student relinquish control, to overpower the student, and if necessary, to fight off the student physically.
That is what normally what any FI would do. The student required atleast 5 takeoff by his instructor. This was a total pilot error, unfortunately. Innocent person paid the price!
I knew Viktoria, she was a very passionate and caring person. Willing to provide guidance to anyone about flying whether they attended Rick or not.
I can't believe she gave the take off control to a complete novice who expressed anxiety about flying...and it being his first ever flight. So tragic.
My dad said he had a seat slide back while landing. He was able to land safely but the flight school didn't believe him because it didn't happen to anyone else in the school.
The first time I flew a plane (with a friend, not an official lesson) I took off and landed, but:
A) I was only operating the yoke, not the throttle nor rudder,
B) my friend had me fly around and practice maintaining altitude/heading and turns before I tried landing or taking off, and
C) I had watched him do multiple takeoffs and landings before I had my turn at the controls.
The FAA issued an AD for my Cessna Cardinal to have the seat rails replaced due to the holes getting elongated from constant friction from the pins that slide in. We used to do a "seat wiggle" before each take off to ensure the pins were set.
GA pilot here, why would she let a student even TOUCH the controls when he has never even been in an airplane??? first lesson or two- "just watch me" sad she died but not a common sense decision to let him near the controls on first flight.
I am a relatively new CFI, I just starting instructing last November. We have a similar year Cessna 172 and with any new student or one I haven’t flown with before I always brief to operate the seats and to make sure the seat is properly locked in place. I’ll even have them wiggle in their seat just to make sure. Also with intro flight for the takeoff and landings I like to do a thorough brief of positive exchange of flight controls. One last thing I like to do is on intro flights is to do the takeoff and landings but have the student keep their hands on the controls so they can feel and see what I am doing. When I do this I also like to re-emphasize that I am the one flying the plane. These are both tragic stories and I hope others can learn from them.
Perform a take off when it's his first flight ever wtf !!! That is insane !
That’s scary. The dude should not have done that.
I totally agree. I'm not a pilot - but that's just common sense.
@@robertsole9970 the CPI should've never allowed that. It's insane
@@bc-guy852 💯
I have absolutely no connection to the pilot or airline industry. However, I came across your channel just after the Nelson crash. Your experience and thoughtfulness in covering these stories has been fascinating to me. Even without the understanding, I’ve learned some takeaways from your videos: 1) it’s increased my respect for pilots…the knowledge and skill that is required to be successful and, 2) your comment about “normalization deviance”. The second point goes beyond piloting. It can be applied to many aspects of day to day life. Thank you for your service and what you do on a daily basis to keep us safe.
I think most of us had a huge alarm bell ringing in our heads when hearing of her decision to allow 'Bo' the take-off.. someone never having been in any type of aircraft.. probably seen multiple movies of pilots wrestling with controls as though they were live snakes.. How could he possibly understand the sensitivity required for conducting a take-off, or even the fact that he doesn't need to continue easing back on the controls once airborne.. He simply should have been allowed to sit there adjusting to flight until at a reasonable altitude and then allowed to get the feel of the controls and inputs required..
We all loathe to criticize, especially when fatalities are involved but this decision was literally, fatally flawed.
Not to be a dick, but the prerecorded is better than live. Just my opinion as an ex TACP/JTAC.
I agree, except the live sessions allow real-time feedback/discussion between viewers and host, which I thought was an interesting addition.
The issue of the importance of the seat being securely locked in place….I was taking off in a rental plane back in the early 80’s, by myself, doing solo training, and just as the Piper Archer rotated, the seat collapsed backward. The seat had a tilt adjustment that allowed two positions, straight up and slightly reclined. It had suddenly reclined beyond that 2nd position, and I was suddenly flat on my back, looking at the ceiling. Luckily my abdominal muscles were strong enough for me to sit myself up and maintain the correct pitch for climb. Then I was able to pull my seat back forward with one hand, and lock it into place. My instructor, who also owned the plane, acted like it was no big deal when I told him about it afterward. He was aware that the seat adjuster was a little “quirky”, but didn’t seem to realize how dangerous it was. Good thing I was in my 20s and in good shape.
FYI: everyone should put shoulder harnesses in their aircraft if they don’t already have them. It could save your life!
My son-in-law is a CFI and had restored (he is also a certified airplane mechanic) an older 172 that didn’t (was not required to) have shoulder harnesses. After I suggested that he should add them he did so. Several years later, one of his students was doing a solo flight and snagged some power lines while in the landing pattern. Although she got pretty banged up in the crash, the shoulder harness saved her life.
@@carlam6669Spot on! Shoulder harnesses save lives! Thanks for sharing!
@@carlam6669 Excellent work! Our flight club lost a fantastic person due to lack of shoulder harnesses and a forced landing.
He WAS reckless!!!! No excuse for doing maneuvers that LOW! He KILLED them!
My first plane was a co-ownership of a C-182. I bought (half of) it before I had a pilot's license, but the co-owner was fully qualified. One of the first things he demonstrated to me was how to do the "Cessna seat check," which was to push hard with both feet on the rudder pedals, making sure the seat didn't budge.
With my flight instructor, one of the first lessons was what I should do when he said "MY AIRPLANE!" which meant "LET GO OF THE CONTROLS!"
19:15 it was a week night in 1986. At 14 years old I sat behind the wheel of a Chevy Citation. Clutching the wheel to white knuckle status I found the accelerator and floored it. My then-girlfriends mom laughed and said “um two things. First you must put the car in gear. Secondly put tiny consistent pressure on the gas pedal. TINY consistent pressure.” It was my first attempt at driving. That’s probably exactly what happened here.
Similar story. I was teaching my little sister to drive in my 1960’s muscle car with big v8 and a four speed manual. We were chugging down a side street in first gear that dead ended at the shore of a lake. I told her to step on the clutch and shift into 2nd. She struggled to find second and was focused on the shift lever. I asked her if she had the clutch pressed all the way down. Suddenly I was slammed back into my seat, the hood of car was lifting up and the lake was approaching fast. No response to any of my shouting. Thankfully I broke out of my own shock and lunged for the steering wheel with both hands and we skidded across someone’s back yard instead of plunging into the lake. My sister was so focused on trying to shift gears that she was barely aware of what happened and was confused as to why I had grabbed the wheel. If it had been a plane the outcome likely would have been worse.
That’s a good analogy.
I took an introductory course years ago and the instructor told me the plane (172) basically takes off by itself once it hits a certain speed. There's not much needed input.
Yep you need hardly any back pressure on the control column.
Exactly.
Some gentle input is required to get a decent climb angle, provided the trim was set properly
You can tell just from that first picture of Viktoria that she was an enthusiastic & happy person, especially with what she was doing at the moment. You can't fake that. Can't imagine the heartbreak her loved ones are suffering.
Condolences and prayers to all the families of these people.
These things are easier to watch when it's just the pilot, and he was some kind of A Hole doing something he shouldn't have been.
In other words, someone not knowing what in hell they are doing attempting to tell someone else who do not know what in hell they are doing.
@comparedtowhat2719 Well, I wasn't really trying to point that out. True, though it may well be.😐
I'm sorry there was absolutely no time to transfer controls back to the instructor. That analysis just doesn't fly.
They should have practiced the takeoff sequence in the cockpit without the engine running at least two or three times. And maybe practiced control transfer but that's not what killed her, what killed her was letting a complete unknown handle the controls, a tragic mistake that never should have been made.
Agree. You can't assume people have any clue about how to handle the controls.
@@patrikfloding7985 This young CFI was not trained correctly. That's the root cause of this crash, in my view.
Hoover is so respectful of the families. He doesn't bother with the like and subscribe bs. He seems like a genuinely good man. Thank you for your service and content, Hoover!
When I was in eighth grade (1989), we took a class trip to a local airport. We went up in a Cessna 182. I was thrilled to be sitting in the right seat, and even more thrilled when the pilot said " do you want to take off?" He talked me through the roll and first 500' of climb. Good times
Frightened new students reflexively freezing the yoke is a discreet danger.
I've heard stories from CFI’s about students that freeze up, or kind of lock up on the controls, maybe due to shock.
I took my first lesson in a Cessna172, in 1998. Got PPL in '99. My CFI (now a part-135 pilot) was 22 and I was 32. I don't know how many hours he had and it never crossed my mind. Probably because he was very professional and thorough!
Three major things he taught me from day one..... *positive exchange of controls*, *always do a thorough preflight and runup*, *CHECK and DOUBLE CHECK that darn seat latch!* I'm 6ft tall, average build and he was around 6'5 and skinny :)
No GPS, no autopilot in the school's fleet and I didn't get to use them until a few years later. I love the G1000 and all the modern stuff, but I'm glad I learned on old-school equipment. Also, we had no cellphones or social media.
In hindsight, I'm almost sure I was one of his first few students, but it didn't matter because he was very very good at his job. He actually seemed very experienced, like he'd been teaching for years. I also had over a decade of flight simulator under my belt, lol. Started the hobby as a 16 year old and still continue to enjoy it after becoming a pilot.
These types of accidents, due to lack of experience and judgment, are very sad to see! I knew back in my early student pilot days, that I'd never want to be a CFI for this reason! RIP 🙏🏾
BTW, we never, ever practiced slow flight and stalls below 3000 ft!
I used to fly model aircraft and we often talked about staying 'three mistakes high'
I have a different thought. Posting everything on Instagram suggests to me that her focus was on making videos, not on learning her trade.
She wouldn't be the first ...
Or, I don't know, proud of her accomplishments?
@@JoshuaTootell So every video was recording an accomplishment that needed to be documented?
Lots of people get through high school, colleges, grad school, professional licensing, career certifications, promotions, new jobs, etc and don't feel the need to document them for the whole world even though they are proud of what they have achieved.
To me, it seems like everyone under a certain age really believes the rest of the world cares and simply can't comprehend that they aren't the center of everyone else's lives.
I vividly remember the first time I flew on a light aeroplane with an airline chief flight instructor saying "DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING".
The student was mentally not ready for the flight. He most likely overpowered her while fighting for the controls. How come you start a flight training without any background knowledge about flying on general?
She had a mentally unstable student, and was too young, inexperienced and weak to cope with the problem.
You didn't even have to give any details. I instantly knew this was over-rotation and the guy in the back didn't help matters. I once stupidly let a new guy try to ride my motorcycle. His first and only trip lasted 4 seconds as he gunned it and popped a wheelie. Some people have no sense of machinery and how to operate it. It seems self-evident on the very first time in an airplane in the front seat, you should not be operating the controls until you're in stable flight at altitude.
After moving from the UK to the USA, I noticed a massive difference in the attitude of flight instructors towards positive transfer of control. No confirmation, euphemisms were used (“let me see it”), and often just a grab of the controls with no words spoken. Admittedly this is a small sample of instructors, but it did shock me, and lead to confusion - especially when flying in turbulence.
As a an old man who's simply tinkered with Flight Simulator 2000 how would someone who's never been airborne have the slightest clue about what "pulling back" on the stick means in terms of degree, duration, etc. Is this standard procedure in flight schools - let the guy who's never even ridden in a plane before perform the takeoff once you hit rotation speed...and hope to hell he has a clue about the involved aerodynamics and mechanics? Seriously, you don't mention that this is weird - and it strikes me as insane. Is this a normal thing for someone taking their first flight lesson and who's never flown a plane - "Hey, you pull back on the yoke and do the takeoff...". What? I'm genuinely curious because all you talk about is the transfer of control and nothing about this transfer of control being a seriously crazy idea (which is how it strikes this old man). I mean, if he didn't kill 'em all on the takeoff was she gonna let the guy try and do the landing, too? Sounds like this student knew less than me and that's pretty scary. if it's the dude's very first flight lesson - or in this case, flight in an airplane - a sensible person would presume he knows absolutely nothing about flight dynamics, generally. Sad, but, very bizarre.
Yes, telling someone to relinquish control who might be in a panic would not work.
It’s a normal thing. I was a 21 year old CFI in 1993 and every one of my students did the first takeoff of their flight training on the first flight. That’s how you learn.
I performed the take-off roll and climb in a Cessna 152 on my first lesson in 1978. It seemed crazy to me, but my instructor communicated clearly throughout and could have easily countered my inputs or just asked for the controls. I was relieved when he didn't ask me to make our first landing, too! 😊
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 That's wild, and, you know whereof you speak - I don't. I would have never guessed this was kind of a standard thing. When I was waa 12 I mowed lawns and saved my money and made my dad take me out to the local airport so some guy could fly me around Flint, Michigan (best seen from the air, especially nowadays - haha) in a Piper Cub. I loved it - my dad hated flying. I took helicopter rides at the fair, etc. But growing up he was always making morbid jokes about flying and it finally got me to a point where I was afraid to fly...which stinks. This concept still seems odd to me because some student might have no concept of how a plane stalls, etc..... But if you say this is a common practice, I believe ya. Thanks for sharing the benefit of your experience - however surprising.
@@cocostrayer6667 Another fella just said the same, so, it just goes to prove what my wife has been claiming for years - that I don't know nearly as much as I think....lol. 😄 That does surprise me, though.
I retired from a career in airport design, construction, maintenance, operations , safety and management at the end of 2000. At the same time I retired from 40+ years of flying, the last 27 years in the left seat of a Baron. These lessons in aviation safety shared by Hoover, as tragic as the cases can be, are so important and presented in such an empathetic and professional way, to the point it tremendously enhances the overall awareness and safety of general/business aviation. Personally, these lessons also keeps me engaged, vicariously as it may be, as an airport bum and aviator at heart. No longer that kid on the fence wanting to fly, but that old guy on the fence sometimes wishing I was that young kid again or back in the Baron's left seat. It is so tragic and a shame these young pilots will never have the experience of retiring from an aviation career like many of us have.🙏🙏
❤🙏
My friend was on the rowing team with Viktoria at Hampton (where she went to college) and although I watch this channel constantly he sent me here. I never knew her personally but I’ve seen how much she is missed
My daughter is 17 and we take every precaution to keep her safe while she lives her best life. Both young women had so much ahead of them. May their families find peace of some kind, if that is even possible after the loss of a child.
Incredibly sad stream/video. Great job Hoover keeping it professional and real. I can only imagine how hard these are to make.
I had a ‘taster’ flight many years ago where I performed the take off. The instructor got me to rehearse the pull back on the control column prior to start up and emphasised that ALL inputs I made MUST be smooth and controlled. Think that was good practice in all senses of the word!!!
So hearthbreaking😞💔 I’m a student pilot who is currently pursing my PPL (preparing to solo). This really hits close to home.
.., I love how you break these down. I am a private pilot who flew to the Bahamas from Maryland as the "senior" pilot with a buddy that owned a P38-181 and less hours than, and I had about 100 hours, no instrument rating and no other experience. We lived. Then I flew a round trip from the Midwest to Maryland in January. Got within an hour drive before before winter storm met me. The rental FBO demanded I return the aircraft or pay the fees for the several winter storm days ahead. I refused, paid the fees, and told them they should never pressure pilots to endanger themselves or the public like they tried to me. I have never flown since. I know I don't fly enough to stay safe, and when I fly now, I pay a flight instructor to fly with me as copilot. I am so thankful I survived a few close calls and suggest other private pilots that don't fly often to do the same. As a side note, military pilots are safer because they MUST FOLLOW SAFETY PROTOCOLS or they can't fly. Private pilots can do as they want and must be better pilots on their own. If not, we know the results. Thank you for such professional reporting that isn't available in the civilian world.
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
A student pilot shouldn't be taking off or landing on their first flight. Get them to altitude and let them fly straight and level and basic turns. Get them to see where the airspeed is and how much force is needed on the controls. There is little instructional value in take off or landing on the first flight. Both are complex and close to the ground. Remember with wing tip vortices they will go with the wind. So if you take off into the wind and the heavy plane is at 90 degrees it could travel down your runway.
The second one I just wonder what his rational was. It seems to me that you would want the extra altitude so they could have room to fail. Let them get a stall that starts going into a spin. Then take control and review it and how not to have that happen.
Women shouldnt be pilots in the first place.
My first instructor wanted me to do this. I did not feel comfortable.
@@Riley0509 Ya, get used to the sensations. It's going to be a blur anyway why risk it?
One of my instructors wanted me to take off a cub as a low time pilot and first time in a tail dragger, I told him no but he didn’t hear me. The aircraft ended up doing a perfect takeoff all by itself. I was not amused.
@@Riley0509 Mine, too! At about 60 mph, "You have it!"
A DPE once told me as a new ppl “You now have 2 bags, one is empty and one is full. The empty bag is experience and the full bag is luck. Try to fill one up before the other runs out”
I’ve had a few young friends fast track this route and I’ve always asked them just to take some flights for fun and enjoy what you’ve earned so far, further your experience in the air. 330 hour CFI would make me nervous to be honest.
Respect and prayers to all involved
Good saying and analogy. And I would add a third, listen to the voice of another's experience and save yourself learning something the hard way.
On a wing and a prayer.
Brenda was a friend of mine. We both instructed at the same flight school. Her husband was also a highly regarded flight instructor. These tragedies are always hard to take. Especially when they hit close to home. Blue skies and tailwinds on your flight west Brenda.
Sorry for your loss.