I watched the Persona 4 Anime _once,_ and immediately understood they were about the fear of not being masculine _enough_ and what that *_could_* mean, and the struggles of women in the work environment, and I was around 15 then. (ŏ∀ó;)ゞ I wasn't surprised when people got that confused honestly, but (especially in Naoto's case) that *_comepletely_* takes away from the premise and the importance of the _Truth_ that was being expressed in their story and for society It's a bit ironic that people would rather take the Shadow's _hyperbolized version_ of the truth at face-value instead of seeing the bigger picture - ＝∀＝;
Funny, cause Naoto and Kanji are my favorite non Yu characters in this game. The Japanese version does a better job of hiding Naoto’s gender, because her Japanese voice actress is Romi Park, who is known for voicing male characters. Most notable, Edward Elric. With Rise’s JP VA, Rie Kugiyama, voicing his brother, Alphonse.
With kanji he likes feminine things and because of that people make fun of him and think either he's wierd or gay, making him question himself but he soon realises who he truly is and doesn't care what people think. Did people forget he has a huge crush on naoto? With Naoto she is not trans. (This debate gives me a headache honestly) I always thought it was more about the sexism in society and her Feeling like an outcast compared to the other detectives in her family. The only transgender reference is her thinking that having a sex change would solve that problem but the characters convince her she's not thinking right so she stops and realises she feels comfortable being a woman. It's pretty inspiring to women if you ask me. I don't think people misinterpret their stories (though some do) but from what I've seen people just choose to be ignorant because they're upset that the thing they wanted to happen didn't happen.
Also, I would love to praise the english VA's especially Kanji's western part for this! The voice over for the game was done so well that for me it rivals the original Japanese VAs delivery of the character!
@@ahmadp0w3rgaming36 If you're talking about Matt Mercer, he only voiced Kanji in the spin off games. In the PS2 version and Golden he's voiced by Troy Baker.
…Yes Kanji arc isn’t about sexuality necessarily, but about questioning what is seen as masculine and feminine and his social struggle. However, that doesn’t mean Kanji is straight. Yes Kanji does feel attraction to girls, but he also had a crush on Naoto while thinking she was a guy. So if I say “Kanji is attacted to both men and women” I’m not “ignoring” or “misinterpreting” Kanji’s arc, I’m just refering to situations that happen in the story.
Bro yes! People keep saying "B-but his arc is actually about men can like things that are conventionally 'girly' so he isn't gay!" and yes that IS true but Kanji literally has a crush on Naoto BEFORE he knows she is a woman, it doesn't matter that he discovers after, he didn't know and still had a crush on her, straight men don't have crush on men even if they look more feminine.
Now I didn't get to the Naoto section in the video 'cause I aim't there yet in the game but I'm not all that surprised that people just miss the whole point of his arc as the shadow versions always say that "Ooh, I'm the real you!" but that can already be proven wrong by the fact that y'know, there's two of them. I think a lot of people missed that the shadows are just a hidden part of them gone wild, not their actual thoughts and feelings, thus they just thought that Kanji was about accepting sexuality but that's not the case which is why Kanji's one of my favorite characters in media as a whole. He's a represantion but it isn't his only quality, yeah this simple thing most western writers completely miss is what makes him my favorite. There is one DC comic series where we follow Super Man's kid and the only thing that makes him different from Clark is that he is bisexual, that's it, you're reading the same Super Man comic again with the slight difference in sexuality. Kanji, like the rest of the cast, still feels like a person AND being gay is still just a *part* of him instead of the single personality trait that takes the cake. I can't thank Atlus enough for cooking so good with Persona 4 and we must not forget how much of a beast Kanji is in combat. Anyways that's about it for my yap session.
I think a lot of people are able to relate to Kanji and Naoto in the ways of questioning your sexuality and gender and that's what makes them misinterpret their arcs. There's nothing wrong with relating to those part it's important to understand their not. If you go through both of their social links and their dungeons it's clear that Kanji struggles with his more effiminate side because of how he was treated when younger and Naoto struggles with being a woman because of the sexism in her workforce. Their arcs are also greatly tied together with them both struggling with not completely falling into their gender norms and that helps them relate to one another and become so close.
i know it's technically not 100% confirmed, but those two probably started dating off screen, especially after Kanji accidentally confessed his feelings to her in 4 arena thinking it was a dream
While there is a point to be made for a reading of their stories as queer I do believe the more conservative take that their stories were not about their sexuality
This story was made back in the early 2000s and the mindset and expectations were different, social norms were expected for just being male or female and how in most fields men and women were not treated as equals. I think its most obvious with naoto, acting masculine was just being a means to an end and is a genuine trope for anime and i dont get why people would be confused about that, though i guess some in game dialogue would rub people the wrong way, but that's only if your avoiding the context. For kenji, that one's definitely a fair assessment, but that was mostly due to how japanese media tends to treat gay men as more comedic or be the butt of a joke so i can understand why people would take it seriously instead of treating it lightly like the japanese.
I'll always blame people relating and projecting way too much on their struggles in the worse way possible, mainly queer folk. And the writing sometimes not being that good
Well, sincerely in my opinion Kanji's journey should have been not only about his masculinity, but also his sexuality (not saying it is, because clearly is not, but the message would be much more strong if were). Kanji's theme is about how toxic is the way society comprehend masculinity, and he being gay would only enrich this theme because a lot of people thinks that if you're a guy that likes guys you're not man, and while I think it's functional, him having issues with masculinity just for a mere hobby isn't even a fraction of the weight his message could have brought.; on top of that is quite odd that in a game about teens accepting their trueselves we don't have one LGBT character. The number of LGBT youth who lose their lives because society and they themselves are unable to recognize their truths is huge, and the game would be a perfect opportunity to address this issue in an empathetic and welcoming way, but apparently making Yusuke say homophobic jokes was a better idea... As for Naoto, she being a trans character really goes against her theme of how toxic is the way society sees women professionally, and people who confused her journey with this either don't understand what it means to be trans or are desperate for recognition, which is sad. Anyway, Kanji is not gay but should have been, and Naoto is not trans and she shouldn't be.
I definitely agree, but as a non-straight person, I don’t think the game implies Kanji is gay…but not straight either. I don’t believe a straight dude would have a dungeon with big guys like that, because of just his masculinity and hobbies and such. I think a lot of his dungeon did deal with that, but when he met with Naoto, it definitely woken something inside of him. Then you see afterwards, he seems more open with himself and I don’t know if other people noticed it, but the way Kanji speaks to Yu, especially alone, like when he calls him, his tone of voice is more soft and he genuinely feels more at easy with Yu. It to me he seems like he likes Yu, like in a crush kind of way. But even outside of that, he like Naoto even once he knows she’s a girl. I personally would say, and this is just a way to see Kanji, not labeling him, he comes off like he’s Pansexual, meaning he likes someone, despite their gender identity. But he also has a tomboy type, because he chooses Chie at the inn, so I think he likes non-girly girlies as well. But all in all, he’s a little gay, because the game made all the main characters like Yu, especially knowing Yosuke’s romance route was a thing and was even voiced by the English voice actor.
As much as I saw the value in their character arcs, it's hardly fair to claim people who do see the sexuality/gender aspect are objectively wrong. Considering how hard they lean into those elements with the Shadows and their symbolism, it's not hard to interpret them as gay/trans arcs that were later abandoned, especially considering how hard Atlus disrespects the LGBTQ+ community
Except when you consider the whole premise of the game is seeing *_Truth_* for what it is, and not having your insecurities pervert that truth. People doing exactly that is like disregarding the *societal* struggles with masculinity & straight up just being a woman in the business industry. Equally as real problems and the _true_ nature of what the writers were writing about (٥↼∀↼)
@@The-Determined-Ninjathis is what makes the trans view of Naoto’s character seem more like an insult to her actual character which sucks people tend to ignore the whole reason she has to try and be more “adult” and “male” to make the workplace accept her. Same with the view of a gay/bi Kanji it’s an insult to their character and personality. As someone who sorta struggles with my masculinity it’s crazy labelling people who aren’t super manly and are into stranger things gay/bi. Head cannons are completely fine (I guess) but when you outright believe that’s what they are you didn’t understand them.
@@ryankfg4762 'The unfortunate side-effect of labels - they might work to simplify greater concepts in cases, but they also tend to be *_imposed_* by people on people (and things). Which _ironically_ the abuse of terms ends up marginalizing things' deeper or `true` meanings a lot of the time ┐(^～^;)┌
@ryankfg4762 Agreed. I'm a straight dude, but I can readily admit that I'm more "feminine" than "manly." I'd rather read a book and drink tea than get drunk at a bar or club, and I spent my early twenties getting ragged heavily for that. My roommate is bi and he's more "manly" than me (as in, he's a bit of an a-hole who hates answering simple questions for some ungodly reason). Once Kanji accepts his Persona, I relate to him. He's basically me, except when I was bullied in middle and high school, I leaned into the "jokes" about my orientation to piss the bullies off rather than punch them. It took from 7th to 10th grade, but I finally ruined my bullies' fun enough that they left me alone instead, and I'm 11th grade I found myself as part of the "castaway cool kids"-basically, my very own Persona Team of fun and cool people who were too "quirky" for the _"normal"_ cool kids.
The shadows are exaggerations and distortions of their inner struggles. Yosuke is not a psychopath, Chie doesn't see Yukiko as worthless and Yukiko is not a slut. It is hypocritical to only take the shadows as characters' inner selves when you want them to be.
I watched the Persona 4 Anime _once,_ and immediately understood they were about the fear of not being masculine _enough_ and what that *_could_* mean, and the struggles of women in the work environment, and I was around 15 then. (ŏ∀ó;)ゞ
I wasn't surprised when people got that confused honestly, but (especially in Naoto's case) that *_comepletely_* takes away from the premise and the importance of the _Truth_ that was being expressed in their story and for society
It's a bit ironic that people would rather take the Shadow's _hyperbolized version_ of the truth at face-value instead of seeing the bigger picture - ＝∀＝;
The fact this is still a hot topic in the community confirms what Adachi and Izanami were saying: No one WANTS to actually see the truth.
Kanji is my favorite character , as austic guy who loves games and cuter things not so manly things , i realt to him so much
Except Kanji is the epitome of manly.
@fenixchief7 100% true
Funny, cause Naoto and Kanji are my favorite non Yu characters in this game.
The Japanese version does a better job of hiding Naoto’s gender, because her Japanese voice actress is Romi Park, who is known for voicing male characters. Most notable, Edward Elric. With Rise’s JP VA, Rie Kugiyama, voicing his brother, Alphonse.
With kanji he likes feminine things and because of that people make fun of him and think either he's wierd or gay, making him question himself but he soon realises who he truly is and doesn't care what people think. Did people forget he has a huge crush on naoto? With Naoto she is not trans. (This debate gives me a headache honestly) I always thought it was more about the sexism in society and her Feeling like an outcast compared to the other detectives in her family. The only transgender reference is her thinking that having a sex change would solve that problem but the characters convince her she's not thinking right so she stops and realises she feels comfortable being a woman. It's pretty inspiring to women if you ask me. I don't think people misinterpret their stories (though some do) but from what I've seen people just choose to be ignorant because they're upset that the thing they wanted to happen didn't happen.
Yep, especially nowadays when people are still ignorant about the meaning of both Naoto and Kanji’s arcs
Also, I would love to praise the english VA's especially Kanji's western part for this! The voice over for the game was done so well that for me it rivals the original Japanese VAs delivery of the character!
Jotaro's english VA btw
@@ahmadp0w3rgaming36 If you're talking about Matt Mercer, he only voiced Kanji in the spin off games. In the PS2 version and Golden he's voiced by Troy Baker.
I think it's brilliant.
"People see what they want to see and the fog only grows".
You gotta appreciate the irony
…Yes Kanji arc isn’t about sexuality necessarily, but about questioning what is seen as masculine and feminine and his social struggle. However, that doesn’t mean Kanji is straight. Yes Kanji does feel attraction to girls, but he also had a crush on Naoto while thinking she was a guy. So if I say “Kanji is attacted to both men and women” I’m not “ignoring” or “misinterpreting” Kanji’s arc, I’m just refering to situations that happen in the story.
Bro yes! People keep saying "B-but his arc is actually about men can like things that are conventionally 'girly' so he isn't gay!" and yes that IS true but Kanji literally has a crush on Naoto BEFORE he knows she is a woman, it doesn't matter that he discovers after, he didn't know and still had a crush on her, straight men don't have crush on men even if they look more feminine.
The Kanji situation is insane.
This is the greatest situation of All Time
Now I didn't get to the Naoto section in the video 'cause I aim't there yet in the game but I'm not all that surprised that people just miss the whole point of his arc as the shadow versions always say that "Ooh, I'm the real you!" but that can already be proven wrong by the fact that y'know, there's two of them. I think a lot of people missed that the shadows are just a hidden part of them gone wild, not their actual thoughts and feelings, thus they just thought that Kanji was about accepting sexuality but that's not the case which is why Kanji's one of my favorite characters in media as a whole. He's a represantion but it isn't his only quality, yeah this simple thing most western writers completely miss is what makes him my favorite. There is one DC comic series where we follow Super Man's kid and the only thing that makes him different from Clark is that he is bisexual, that's it, you're reading the same Super Man comic again with the slight difference in sexuality. Kanji, like the rest of the cast, still feels like a person AND being gay is still just a *part* of him instead of the single personality trait that takes the cake. I can't thank Atlus enough for cooking so good with Persona 4 and we must not forget how much of a beast Kanji is in combat. Anyways that's about it for my yap session.
i like litterly finished my p4g playthrough like about a week ago went the Yukiko route ^^
I think a lot of people are able to relate to Kanji and Naoto in the ways of questioning your sexuality and gender and that's what makes them misinterpret their arcs. There's nothing wrong with relating to those part it's important to understand their not. If you go through both of their social links and their dungeons it's clear that Kanji struggles with his more effiminate side because of how he was treated when younger and Naoto struggles with being a woman because of the sexism in her workforce. Their arcs are also greatly tied together with them both struggling with not completely falling into their gender norms and that helps them relate to one another and become so close.
i know it's technically not 100% confirmed, but those two probably started dating off screen, especially after Kanji accidentally confessed his feelings to her in 4 arena thinking it was a dream
While there is a point to be made for a reading of their stories as queer I do believe the more conservative take that their stories were not about their sexuality
One of the many reasons why P4G is my favorite Persona game (Also amazing video man 🙌🙌)
This story was made back in the early 2000s and the mindset and expectations were different, social norms were expected for just being male or female and how in most fields men and women were not treated as equals.
I think its most obvious with naoto, acting masculine was just being a means to an end and is a genuine trope for anime and i dont get why people would be confused about that, though i guess some in game dialogue would rub people the wrong way, but that's only if your avoiding the context.
For kenji, that one's definitely a fair assessment, but that was mostly due to how japanese media tends to treat gay men as more comedic or be the butt of a joke so i can understand why people would take it seriously instead of treating it lightly like the japanese.
I'll always blame people relating and projecting way too much on their struggles in the worse way possible, mainly queer folk. And the writing sometimes not being that good
Literally finished p4 golde today and youtube recommenders this lmao
tbh getting queer representation even if it was bad was a big step remember how old this game is
What version of the persona games you play like what’s your preference for p5r? I’m trying to decide between switch or ps5
Ps5 plays and looks better than the switch, but I play on the PC
Great video!
I thought you were gonna talk about how the protagonist NTR Kanji by dating Naoto lmao
Again?
Well, sincerely in my opinion Kanji's journey should have been not only about his masculinity, but also his sexuality (not saying it is, because clearly is not, but the message would be much more strong if were). Kanji's theme is about how toxic is the way society comprehend masculinity, and he being gay would only enrich this theme because a lot of people thinks that if you're a guy that likes guys you're not man, and while I think it's functional, him having issues with masculinity just for a mere hobby isn't even a fraction of the weight his message could have brought.; on top of that is quite odd that in a game about teens accepting their trueselves we don't have one LGBT character. The number of LGBT youth who lose their lives because society and they themselves are unable to recognize their truths is huge, and the game would be a perfect opportunity to address this issue in an empathetic and welcoming way, but apparently making Yusuke say homophobic jokes was a better idea... As for Naoto, she being a trans character really goes against her theme of how toxic is the way society sees women professionally, and people who confused her journey with this either don't understand what it means to be trans or are desperate for recognition, which is sad. Anyway, Kanji is not gay but should have been, and Naoto is not trans and she shouldn't be.
I definitely agree, but as a non-straight person, I don’t think the game implies Kanji is gay…but not straight either. I don’t believe a straight dude would have a dungeon with big guys like that, because of just his masculinity and hobbies and such. I think a lot of his dungeon did deal with that, but when he met with Naoto, it definitely woken something inside of him. Then you see afterwards, he seems more open with himself and I don’t know if other people noticed it, but the way Kanji speaks to Yu, especially alone, like when he calls him, his tone of voice is more soft and he genuinely feels more at easy with Yu. It to me he seems like he likes Yu, like in a crush kind of way. But even outside of that, he like Naoto even once he knows she’s a girl. I personally would say, and this is just a way to see Kanji, not labeling him, he comes off like he’s Pansexual, meaning he likes someone, despite their gender identity. But he also has a tomboy type, because he chooses Chie at the inn, so I think he likes non-girly girlies as well.
But all in all, he’s a little gay, because the game made all the main characters like Yu, especially knowing Yosuke’s romance route was a thing and was even voiced by the English voice actor.
As much as I saw the value in their character arcs, it's hardly fair to claim people who do see the sexuality/gender aspect are objectively wrong. Considering how hard they lean into those elements with the Shadows and their symbolism, it's not hard to interpret them as gay/trans arcs that were later abandoned, especially considering how hard Atlus disrespects the LGBTQ+ community
Except when you consider the whole premise of the game is seeing *_Truth_* for what it is, and not having your insecurities pervert that truth.
People doing exactly that is like disregarding the *societal* struggles with masculinity & straight up just being a woman in the business industry. Equally as real problems and the _true_ nature of what the writers were writing about (٥↼∀↼)
@@The-Determined-Ninjathis is what makes the trans view of Naoto’s character seem more like an insult to her actual character which sucks people tend to ignore the whole reason she has to try and be more “adult” and “male” to make the workplace accept her.
Same with the view of a gay/bi Kanji it’s an insult to their character and personality. As someone who sorta struggles with my masculinity it’s crazy labelling people who aren’t super manly and are into stranger things gay/bi.
Head cannons are completely fine (I guess) but when you outright believe that’s what they are you didn’t understand them.
@@ryankfg4762 'The unfortunate side-effect of labels - they might work to simplify greater concepts in cases, but they also tend to be *_imposed_* by people on people (and things). Which _ironically_ the abuse of terms ends up marginalizing things' deeper or `true` meanings a lot of the time ┐(^～^;)┌
@ryankfg4762
Agreed. I'm a straight dude, but I can readily admit that I'm more "feminine" than "manly." I'd rather read a book and drink tea than get drunk at a bar or club, and I spent my early twenties getting ragged heavily for that. My roommate is bi and he's more "manly" than me (as in, he's a bit of an a-hole who hates answering simple questions for some ungodly reason).
Once Kanji accepts his Persona, I relate to him. He's basically me, except when I was bullied in middle and high school, I leaned into the "jokes" about my orientation to piss the bullies off rather than punch them. It took from 7th to 10th grade, but I finally ruined my bullies' fun enough that they left me alone instead, and I'm 11th grade I found myself as part of the "castaway cool kids"-basically, my very own Persona Team of fun and cool people who were too "quirky" for the _"normal"_ cool kids.
The shadows are exaggerations and distortions of their inner struggles. Yosuke is not a psychopath, Chie doesn't see Yukiko as worthless and Yukiko is not a slut. It is hypocritical to only take the shadows as characters' inner selves when you want them to be.