I was not emotionally prepared for the scene where Joel admitted he failed at taking his own life and he and Ellie cry saying they’re both happy he’s still here. Many people can relate to that unfortunately. I think Joel may have sensed that Ellie was experiencing some depression and told her that to remind her that he’s also been there and that it’ll be okay. While they are hard to watch, I think the show has handled difficult subject matter like mental health/suicide and SA very tastefully. Give Pedro and Bella their Emmys now!
The unspoken "It was you, Ellie" is what hit me the hardest. Joel, who has only ever been vulnerable around Tommy, opened himself up to Ellie - and it was the ultimate proof he has accepted her as family, and as his daughter. The comparisons he was doing between Ellie and Sarah later in the episode reminded me of how a parent occasionally takes stock of their kids, kind of outlining each one's place in their world.
"Save who you can save." -Tess "And you were my purpose." -Bill "Love me the way i want to." -Frank "I got you, babygirl." -Joel "Stay awake with me" -Sam "We can lose our minds together." -Riley "It wasn't time that did it." -Joel
@@Kayjee17 when he broke down with Tommy and begged him to take the burden from because he just couldn't do it anymore was one of the most heartbreaking scenes in the show.
Great reaction as always! Two quick things: 1.) Yes, the baby playing baby Ellie is a real baby 2.) Yes, the giraffe Ellie petted is real Shoutout to the production team behind this show for making two spectacular moments in a spectacular show. Can’t wait for season 2!
They did the ending perfectly. As a HUGE fan of the games, this whole show was excellent. I am so so so happy they executed it so incredibly and so many people got on board with the show. Im so happy you loved it
When the original script was written for the game Neil Druckman asked all production team if they thought Joel made the right decision.. of those who had no kids it was split 50:50 on whether they thought Joel was right… of all those who had kids 100% of them said Joel was right.
I'm guessing that you listen to the official show podcast, right? I listened to it as well, snd I was struck by that bit of info ftom Neil Druckman. Lots of good insights about what went into making both the game and the show.
But the truth is that neither Joel nor the Fireflies were 100% right or wrong. Anyone who is being objective should be able to see that, but a parent isn't able to be objective in that kind of situation.
@@markfilla9305 indeed been great listen to Neil, Craig and Troy (and this week Ashley) feel sad that not only has my favourite show has now ended for a long while but also my new favourite pod cast as well.
Joel is right under the circumstances. However he definitely need to come clean to Ellie about what happened and why. Marlene should have given Ellie the dignity of a choice. If she had done so (Maybe) Ellie would have been willing to sacrifice herself dispite the chance of failure. Unfortunately Marlene/fireflies chose to lie and were about to murder an unconscious child. Real heroes don't do that. So before anyone vilifies Joel think about this: Do you think the Dr that was about to murder Ellie would allow his own child to be sacrifice? Highly unlikely especially if he was expected to do the surgery. Ellie's life isn't worth less than the Dr's child. So I say agian Joel did the right thing.
What Joel made very clear in this episode is that he would do anything to prevent having his heart crushed again and torn from his chest. Unless you experienced loss in the same manner as Joel did with Sarah you could never fully understand what motivated him in that hospital, which I fear went somewhere beyond just love for Ellie. Joel in essence recovered a part of himself that he had lost so long ago and he's intent on never letting it go EVER again, if he can help it anyway.
It's awesome we got Ashley Johnson to play Ellie's mom who is Ellie in the games. Yes Ellie would of been fine with it and had Marlene let Ellie decide and tell Joel about her decision everything would of been different but Marlene made the decision herself, Joel did not want to lose another child. Also an old saying came back " the world took Joel's daughter and Joel took the cure away from the world."
Your final closing statements about the “tragic world” and how the characters loved each other is exactly the story the creators set out to tell. The world is tragic but the story is ultimately about love and how, despite everything, it perseveres in such a tragic world. How it’ll drive us to extreme measures both in beauty and destruction. Very insightful analysis Addie!
Apologies for the long comment..... but here it is anyway, haha. I knew a few tidbits from the first game, such as Sarah's death occurring on the night of the outbreak and that the story centred around Joel guiding Ellie across country and forming a father-daughter type bond along the way, I haven't actually played the games, however, so this series has been quite the journey. Ellie's birth scene was amazing... and tragic... and scary... and beautiful... and really interesting as the likely source of her immunity. What a devastating thing for Marlene though. They certainly were very different people, but like Joel, Marlene was someone hardened by this world. They also both made the same mistake at the end, taking the decision away from Ellie. I love that following the flashback they then opened up with Ellie's trauma and the change in her personality, hard as it was to see. It is realistic, though, as the experiences she has had over the previous months would undoubtedly damage a person. Especially a teenager, their hormone riddled bodies and brains being generally ill equipped to deal with their emotions as it is, haha..... we've all been there. Some of the conversations in this episode were so well crafted. The one where Joel tells Ellie they can still turn around, go live a quiet life back at Tommy's, and she responds that they have to go all the way with their mission perfectly foreshadows Joel's conflict later in the episode. He knows Ellie would probably choose to die for a shot at saving humanity, but he just can't stand to lose her. I also loved the conversation where Joel discusses trying to kill himself. It was the most honest and vulnerable Joel has been with her throughout. I think he realised she was needing that from him, but it was also something he simply wanted to give to her to show just how much she had come to mean to him. He was expressing to her that as dark and painful as it may get at times, you will find the light and the beauty again. You will find yourself again. That of course culminated in the moment where he indicates to Ellie that it was she that had healed him from the wound that was the loss of Sarah, she who had led him back to the light, the beauty, and to himself again - such a touching moment. Seeing Joel come from being this person who was extremely closed-off and bitter for 20yrs to this moment of open vulnerability and hope was such a great representation of that healing and how far their relationship had come. The sound design on the hospital rescue scene (where Joel rescues Ellie from the surgeon's knife) was amazing. The music was dominant, with the sounds of gunshots, spent shells pinging on the floor, and the occasional agonised scream heard underneath it. That, and the music itself, created a great deal of tension and left a sombre sense in the air. This was no moment of triumph or joy and I think we got that same sombre sense from Joel in the car afterwards. Sure he saved Ellie, but he again had to kill to do it and he also understands that he may have just resigned humanity to eventual extinction. You can see in that moment that he's hugely conflicted and he knows that he acted somewhat selfishly, but he so desperately wanted Ellie to have the chance at a full and decent life that Sarah never got. He also knows that Marlene was probably right when she said that Ellie would give her life for a cure. Afterall, that's why he lies to her, right? Because she would have chosen to sacrifice herself and would be pissed that he did what he did. Despite this, despite knowing that Ellie would probably choose the surgery, he still couldn't bring himself to let her go. Whilst we can all make the argument for why Joel should have acted for the greater good, I think we can all understand why he didn't also, so it's super hard to be highly critical of him. I think it's this that makes this ending such a compelling one. Ultimately, however, as I said above this should have been Ellie's decision to make and both Joel and Marlene took it from her. They should have fully informed her and then supported her in making her decision in her own time and free from pressure or coercion. Joel and Ellie's final conversation was again brilliantly crafted. In opening up about Riley I think Ellie was essentially saying to Joel, "Hey, this is my deepest, most painful secret and I'm about to be totally honest with you about it, so I expect you to be the same when I ask you about what happened back at the hospital." She obviously has her doubts about Joel's story, but I think she so desperately wants it to be true, so desperately wants to have not been betrayed by the one person she trusts and loves in this world, that she's willing herself to accept it. Deep down, however, I think there's a part of her that knows he's lying. Please, no spoilers, but I can't help thinking that Joel's lie is going to come back to bite him in the second game/season. Through all this trauma and adversity they've slowly built a loving relationship on a foundation of openness and trust. This fact was really highlighted by the conversations they shared throughout this episode, so I suspect that trust will be broken when Ellie learns the truth about what happened at the hospital and that she still might hold the potential for a cure. Though it pains me to say, I think this will likely be a major source of conflict between the two next season. Anyway, this first season has been great. The writing, the music, the casting, the directing, the cinematography, the acting, etc, etc, etc has all been top notch. Special mention of course for Bella and Pedro, they've carried this story brilliantly. Thanks for your reactions, let's do it all again come season two.
@@VColossalV it’s honestly a no-win situation. If Ellie picks surgery (which was likely the case), joel wouldn’t allow that which is why he’s making the choice for her. And then if Ellie chose no surgery and the choice to live, you know Marlene and the fireflies wouldn’t allow “the cure” to just walk out the door.
@@diisomoto it shouldn't be either of them that should make the choice for her, but at least with the Fireflies they are looking beyond themselves in the decision, Marlene raised Ellie, and grew up with her mother, yet she is putting that aside as difficult as that is and choosing to save the world.
@@VColossalV I agree that Ellie should be the one to decide. I'm just saying that in all of their righteousness, if Ellie decided not to go through the surgery for her own personal reasons, there's no way the fireflies would be ok with that decision.
I'm glad they showed Joel picking up the fireflies weapons as he progressed through the hospital. In the game you barely had enough and you had to really watch what you used throughout the game.
If she was so confident that Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself to _possibly_ create a cure, why didn't they ask her before the surgery whether she was willing to sacrifice herself?
Fun fact about this show: a bunch of the actors from the video game actually appear in the TV show, although most of them play different characters in the show than they did in the game
4:12-4:16, When Marlene enters the room, notice that Anna was holding the knife to her neck? She was doing this in case the others didn't get here and she started to lose her ability to control her body, she was prepared to end herself if she had to, for her daughter. But if she lived to speak to Marlene, she could ask her to take the baby and find her a safe home. She lowered the knife because Marlene was there, she was no longer Ellie's last hope for survival. Episode 2 was similar, but her answer was "Jury's still out. But you can't deny that view." so not exactly the same, but very related. Realistically, it would be akin to removing a tumor from a brain, very risky to do. But in removing a tumor, you care about getting all the tumor with as little damage to the surrounding brain tissue. The plan here is to get as much of this specific cordyceps, the brain is expendable. Which to me seems an extreme "first attempt" since they have no assurance they can reproduce this specific cordyceps in the lab, and they'll only have 1 chance to harvest it. If they fail to reproduce it, they've killed the only known source. They chose not to tell her the price, and to a limited degree I can understand why. If she says it's worth it, it eases the burden on their consciences "She chose this". But if she says "no" then they have the dilemma of having offered her the choice, and living with her answer, or actively doing this against her will, with no question how she would have answered. While the people in charge might be fine with going against her wishes, what about _everyone else_ involved, if they know? 13:20-13:28 A man who isn't supposed to be here, comes in, tells you to unhook the patient you're about to kill. The man has a gun, and he's probably already killed everyone who was around here to protect you, and you choose to pick up a scalpel (not suitable for a thrown weapon, so you'll have to get really close to him) and say "I won't let you take her." Who could see the outcome of that scenario like a huge flashing LED billboard sign? *IF* they gave Ellie the choice, *and* Ellie chose to be the price paid, I think it would take a little time between them, and Joel would accept Ellie's decision. She wasn't given the choice, she didn't agree to die. They were taking that choice away from her, and he knew that. Once he had safely extracted her, he didn't want his decisions to be second guessed by her, and a lie to comfort her was his choice. A choice he has to live with, and a lie that may one day come out.
Most of this show was shot in Alberta: Calgary, Edmonton, Fort Macleod, Canmore and High River. I live in such a beautiful province. 😊🇨🇦. It was also very cool to see Ashley Johnson in this episode as I know her from Growing Pains and Blind Spot and then to later find out that she provided the voice of Ellie in the game is very awesome!!
I've watched a lot of reactors share thier reaction videos for "The last of us", I've to say I enjoyed yours the most. I've never played the game as well, and I feel your reaction videos were outstanding because you didn't have any prior insights to the storyline. 👍 ❤ 📹
It's super thought provoking, as far as thinking back to all the characters we've met along the journey. They all had their reasons and motivations for making the decisions they made, yet we always justified Joel's actions. Once he murders a hospital full of people, who are trying to find a cure to save what's left of the human race to protect one person, you kind of have to ask if he's still the good guy in this story. In the last scene, when Ellie starts to list names (Riley, Tess) and she's cut off by Joel, I feel like at that moment you know she would've sacrificed herself in the hope of stopping anymore needless death.
Joel killed a bunch of people who were going to cut up a 14 year old kid (without her knowing btw) after a few tests. Joel saved Ellie. There is no "moral dilemma" with what Joel did to the Fireflies. The life of the individual is more important than the possibility of "saving" the collective.
Yeh I interpreted it as Anna got bit while Ellie was still attached to the umbilical cord which gave her just enough exposure for immunity. Similar to the way vaccines work
Fantastic reaction to a spectacular season! Easily earned my subscription! The Joel character strikes me as amazingly similar to the Captain Malcolm Reynolds character in the 1-season series called "Firefly". If you haven't seen that yet, please consider treating yourself and your viewers to that excellent show, too. Cheers!
Watching TLoU along with you has been fantastic! I played the game, but the show was different enough to feel like a new experience while keeping most of the bits that made the game great. I'm glad you liked it, and I'll be here to watch Season Two with you! I know you probably get most of your recommendations from Patreon, but I feel obligated to suggest "Firefly," or "The Haunting of Hill House" if you decide to pick up another series to replace TLoU. Also, someone in another comment mentioned "Heroes" Season One, and I'd second that suggestion.
I really think that the fireflies were not as good as we think. They should have welcomed Joel due to his work in protecting Ellie and come so far. And if they really talked about the option with Joel and Ellie, Ellie will surely sacrifice herself for the cure. Joel of course will not accept it but still has a chance to say goodbye to Ellie. I think this will be a better ending if the fireflies have dealt with kind attitude. The thing I hate the most is that Marlene still think of Joel as the bad guy, and eventhough she said that she owed Joel for bringing Ellie to them she still treats him like a jerk. I think the fireflies will not be a better choice to govern people if they had won against FEDRA. They are the same as Cathleen's group
@@kilian8250 I don't find Jackson realistic in the slightest. Military government based around authoritarian order: a thing that happens. Communal society WITHOUT any major unifying force or goal (say, religion or ideology): a thing that always fails. Even Fedra is pushing the boundaries of believability, since all real-world societies have unifying, driving cosmological frameworks (Boston doesn't seem to, other than stability/order = good). The societies that don't are collapsing in on themselves into tribalism and eventual civil strife (the West in general).
Nice reaction, Addie. Seeing Ellie's mother giving birth to Ellie, after infected and giving her away to Marlene and telling her to kill her to save Ellie at the beginning of this episode was very heartbreaking. So many tough decisions to make in this episode and this show as a whole. BTW, it's neat that Ellie's mom was played by the actress who played her in the video game. And it's pretty sweet that Joel finally opens up to Ellie and it was awesome & heartwarming when Joel came searching for Ellie in the hospital. He was doing this from the bottom of his heart because of how much he cared for her and finally redeemed himself after losing his daughter, Sarah, back in 2003. Thank you so much for reacting to this season of the show and I also thank Jeremy for suggesting it to you. I'm looking forward to seeing more ADDIEventures with your reactions on both TH-cam & Patreon, real soon.
While his past experiences did impact his decisions and he is not truly a bad person, I would hardly call lying to her and slaughtering all the fireflies redemption, he took the cure away from humanity, even knowing that she would choose to make that sacrifice. Even good people can do monstrous things.
Everyone talks about the Mama Bear's wrath, but Joel shows us the wrath of Papa Bear. He's already had a daughter taken from him before, he won't allow it again. The things a man will do for his child is absolutely terrifying yet beautiful.
Did anyone catch the shot of the dead doctor? Hope it's a precursor for the next season which imo has to be more episodes or at least two seasons to really pull off everything that is in part two.
It has been confirmed that Part 2 of the game will be stretch into two seasons. So I have a pretty good clue on how the second season is going to end to set up the third season. *spoilers* The last words *You killed all my friend's... We let you live and you wasted it* "cut to black" ~ Closing credits
The showrunners have confirmed that it'll take more than one season to cover everything from The Last of Us Part II, so we already know so far we're getting at least to season 3. :)
I am french, and here is a tip to all non-english speaker: if you want the perfect definition of "bittersweet", just look at the ending of this episode.
Thank you for sticking with it! It was a rough series with a very difficult choice at the end! I never played the game (I watched the old YT of Markiplier play it while watching this series), but I hope in Part 2 they slow down a little and get in more combat. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the feels of season one, but I think they could get into more fights. The games are very combat oriented and I know a lot of people wanted more of that.
What's crazy is that that is exactly how the first game ended. What's more crazy is that they were adamant that there would not be a sequel. That exchange of "I swear" and "okay" was how Joel and Ellie's story ended. But eventually money talked lol
It's really interesting how throughout the show, when you give your thoughts at the end of the videos, you keep saying "us," or "we" as if you're a part of the story, when you obviously arent. It makes me feel like you're really connecting to this show, which as a huge fan of this show, I really love
Hey, Addie! Ashley Johnson, who voiced Ellie in the game played Ellie's pregnant mom, Anna. The giraffes are straight out of the game. I'm so glad they kept that scene in! Save for the birth scene and a final action-packed push through a clicker- and bloater-infested tunnel en route to the hospital, the episode plays out almost exactly like the game! There are no other options! Neurosurgeons are a rarity in an apocalyptic world! Humanity's existence is poised on a knife's edge. The stakes are too big to risk Ellie saying 'no'. Joel sacrificed the lives of everyone in the hospital and everyone who dies of cordyceps from that day forward! Ellie had already decided before the hospital that she would see her mission through no matter what the cost and told Joel so. She said, "There's no halfway with this." Who wouldn't sacrifice themselves to save the world? It is her sole purpose for being. To deny fulfillment of this goal is to deny her destiny. Frankly, even if she didn't want to, she should be forced to kicking and screaming. It's devil's arithmetic but how would you feel if a loved one could have been spared but for the refusal of the one who carried the cure? What supreme arrogance! The big surprise at the end of the game is when you are forced to kill the entire medical team to advance the plot. The game doesn't move along until you slaughter them all. At that point, you realize that your POV character, Joel, is the villain who dooms the world for purely selfish reasons. Heroes sacrifice. Joel does not. Ellie knows he is lying to her but she accepts the lie out of love for her surrogate father because the truth of his monstrous, self-serving decision is too horrifying to acknowledge. The hero was the villain all along.
Apart from the opening with Eliies mom which is completely new and not in the games, and the way the fireflies get them (in the game they go through a flooded tunnel, ellie nearly drowns and they are saved by fireflies) when Joel Wakes up in the Hospital is EXACTLY how the first game ends as well The giraffe scene is my favorite in the game as well and when they announced the TV Show i said if they dont have the giraffes, the best scene would be missing.
also Joel failing at shooting himself and the scar being on the same side as his almost deaf ear.... yeah he's probably responsible for not hearing on that ear.
The key for me is that the sacrifice of Ellie wouldn't be sure to find a cure. Even Marlene only said it "might" result in a cure. And it might be a complete failure. They should find a different way, like using the knowledge of how Ellie's condition came about, to find an ethical cure.
@@アキコ2003 You're missing the point quite spectacularly. You don't develop medicines by surgically executing people on the hope that it *might work*. There are other ways. #science Also, "kid"? Probably the first time anyone's called me that for about 50 years. So, ummm thanks I guess?
You are 100% right they were clear it might not work. Technically, though, no one said Ellie was certain to die either. Brain surgery isn't a death sentence even when they remove parts of the brain (and in this case removing parts of the brain wasn't really the goal, just the other stuff growing there). They didn't give enough information to say much about the relative probabilities (like 50% chance of her dying/30% chance of a cure, or 10% and 90%, or any other mix).
Welcome to the Global Debate of 'Did Joel make the right decision?' Its been an unsettled issue since the release of the game June of 2013. For the last 10 years fans of the game have been arguing both sides. This is what makes 'The Last of Us' so damn compelling. As a lover of games and movies/tv alike I'm so glad this story was brought to a live action adaption for others to experience it. Just so everybody knows whenever seasons 2 and 3 air...stock up on kleenex cause season 1 is child's play by comparison.
what joel does is kind of monstrous... BUT - the ONE REDEEMING THING that the episode doesn't really deal with is the fact that the fireflies didn't give ellie a choice either. joel had a choice but even more critically, the fireflies had a choice. when they denied her that choice, it set joel on a SOMEWHAT JUSTIFIABLE rampage. i just wish he kind of explained it to ellie that way.
Hello. I've really been enjoying a lot of your videos lately. Thanks for the content. It sounds like you aren't going to play the game, but you can still watch it on youtube. There should be some edits with only the cutscenes and dialogue. If you do decide to check it out, I recommend The Last of Us Part 1 Remake version as it's the most graphically enhanced. Part 1 won't spoil anything farther than what you've seen already. Have an awesome day!
(the trolly problem) is perhaps better recalled as - "The needs of the many... outweigh the needs of the few... or the one." ~ Spock ...this was a beautiful reaction to an awesome series. Thank you!
I believe Joel actually solved the trolly problem with the one variable that is usually omitted. If you know none of the principles involved...the sacrifice is easy, one vs many...the many outweigh the one. In Spock's case, HE was the known principle but he was also the one MAKING the decision and it was self-sacrifice, which is also self-serving (I won't go into it but Phoebe on Friends makes a great case for "there is no such thing as a selfless act"). In Joel's case and the biggest dilemma most people make...do you know and love the one person vs a group (no matter the size) of strangers. No backstories, bios or information on any of them to allow you to make the weighted decision. Someone you love vs strangers...strangers will lose.
@@crewchief5144 - Ellie means EVERYTHING to Joel now! You're completely right @ crew chief 5144... it didn't matter if the 'others' were the entire world... no others were ever going to stand a chance.
Back then, we did not know whether this story would see a continuation or not, for many many years. Both of their positions are relatable, Marlene doing it for mankind, Joel doing it for selfish reasons. But ultimately, both did the wrong thing, as they have robbed the one person of the choice that should have made it.
@@zimvader25 After 20 years of not being in charge of anything but jack and shit, I am not sure why yoiiu think their goal was domination reather, as they stated, freedom from FEDRA. Their real problem wasn't that they were secret fascists, it's that they were really overtly bad at fight the fascists (and all too willing to accept high levels of collateral damage-i.e. non-combatant casualties-in achieving their usually ineffective goals). Whatever else they were, I believe they were a mix of idealists and people who just wanted to kill FEDRA.
There's a difference in scale. Marlene tried to murder a child. Joel prevented a child from knowing that she had the option to sacrifice her life. The first sin is much larger.
@@brandonflorida1092 But at the same time one could just as easily say that Marlene was trying to save multitudes of people (including many children) by sacrificing a life that meant a lot to her (and thus by suffering herself), and Joel was trying to save just one, the one that mattered to him (because he would not suffer for the good of others). Marlene's virtue is therefore much greater, and Joel murdered her for that. (But note that both you and I have inserted the word "murder" and "sin/virtue" and there are value judgments in those words that make us presuppose certain conclusions.)
“Since you’re probably the only person who understands. I used to hate the world and I was happy when everyone died. But I was wrong, because there was one person worth saving. That’s what I did, I saved him. Then I protected him. That’s why man like you and me are here, we have a job to do, and God help any motherfckrs who stand in our way.” …’I swear’…
PLEASE react to Heroes (Season 1) and/or the tv series Friday Night Lights, Damages, Burn Notice & The Big Bang Theory I also recommend the movies The Departed, Alpha Dog, Inside Man, I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry, The Devil Wears Prada, American Gangster & The Good Shepherd for the channel
“It isn’t for you to decide” “Or you” Even if Ellie had the decision, humanity seemed like it was destined to doom itself anyway. It was worth the shot, but maybe not. An all-time debatable topic.
I was 12 when The Last of Us came out, and I watched Let's Plays since I didn't have a PlayStation.. At the time, I remember siding 100% with Joel - killing them all and escaping with Ellie. Now, at 22, the choice is darker and more muddied than ever before. It's just *such* a beautiful story, that shows a unique form of human selfishness with equal amounts of compassion. Thanks so much for your reactions to it.
Those of us who played the game had to wait seven years for Part II... Three years before it was announced and then four more years until it was released.
4:59 Thank you Ashley, you did an amazing job in this role and as OG Ellie. If Ashley does not get an Emmy for this I shall be personally offended on her behalf. 7:11 Straight out of the game. A most beautiful moment in Ellie's life. 9:23 NOT in the game. The game has Joel as this Ultimate badass (which he is) that has only one flaw the Murder of Sarah. HBO made Joel HUMAN. He is older, going deaf from all the shooting, has the ultimate burden of having killed innocents and he tried and failed at taking himself out. That is why I want to give him a big hug. Damn you Naughty Dog & HBO for making me cry; AGAIN. I'm on both sides. If it was ME immune and given the choice I would let the surgery happen For All Mankind (if you know you know). But if it was MY segregate Daughter I would do just what Joel did. No hesitation.
I'm looking forward to next season! So much to resolve! Joel went from transporter of cargo to protective father figure! Knowing he just damed the world to continue to suffer the infected!❤️💛😎😁☣️
this is not the trolley problem, not really. In the classic trolley problem, the subject doesn't have emotional connection to anyone. And its generally posed such that inaction would lead to more people dying. This is the opposite and I think the point is that it's the easiest decision Joel has ever made.
I probably would've done everything Joel did up until the very end when Ellie said to swear to her he was telling the truth. I know Joel really cares but at that point just like Joel did in the situation of her going with him or Tommy to Colorado she deserves to make that choice.
The choice to save or sacrifice Ellie isn't a 50/50 choice. There's no guarantee they will make the cure at all. So the sacrifice could be for nothing.
The problem with comparing this to the trolley question for me is that I don't buy for a second that the Fireflies would have developed a cure. Their methods are questionable at best, too much for me to have any faith in their abilities or morals.
I was worried about the short run time but I think they fit in everything that made the ending exquisite. The only thing I wish they could have extended, if anything, is the transition between Joel and Ellie getting knocked out till Joel wakes up and hears Ellie is in surgery. It still feels a tad rushed. But overall the pain points of Joel’s decision and subsequent lie still hit as hard as ever. That, and you can see Ellie’s recognition that he is lying and choosing not to believe it more here. Such a good and powerful note to end this chapter of the story.
The time between Joel being knocked out and waking up being told she is being prepped for surgery is exactly how it is in the game. The last episode is almost beat for beat exactly like the game (except for some infected gameplay). The main difference is tv watches know there is a season 2. When the game came out in 2013, this was the ending gamers were given. Without any knowledge that years later a sequel would be announced. I would also avoid all TLOU part 2 info as there are bug spoilers ahead. HOWEVER. if you want a good teaser, look up 'the last of us 2 psx 2016 teaser trailer' Amazing.
When I played the game, I was 100% with Joel in his choice to stop the surgery and save Ellie any way he had to. But when watching this episode. I was and still am so conflicted about it.
You should play the last of us part 2 it continúes right after this last scene is such a masterpiece one of the Best games of all the Time its much More brutall than the first game buch is such a beautifull AND painfull history you i love to watch It played.
It NEVER was really a choice for Joel to save Ellie or save the world. The Doctor only thought he might be able to wring out a cure. So they were willing to butcher Ellie on a MAYBE. So Joel's choice was really: A, 100% that Ellie will die and MAYBE they get a cure. Or, B, Joel saves his daughter Ellie, and she gets to live and Maybe more pregnant women will birth immune babies.
That ending was so abrupt... yet it works so well. Leaves me anxious for season 2 while resolving this arc of getting to the Firefly doctors. But yeah, I'm scared about Ellie finding out that Joel lied.
@@akzane3030 A lot of people feel the same way I do, actually. The haters are just very vocal. Until recently, Part 2 was literally the most awarded video game ever.
@@TopNotchStoner if it did so well then why are they going a different direction for season 2? Because people hated what they did to Joel! Say what you want but part two is universally hated by fans.
all il say without giving any spoilers is gonna be pretty obvious...everything has consequences, what joel did at the hospital will follow them one way or another....I heard they're splitting the 2nd game into 2 seasons, but that makes sense because the way the second game is structured is 2 separate stories that converge. it also has alot more characters it has to introduce along with more tommy.
I really enjoyed the finale, and after having a while to think about it since I played the game ages ago, I've concluded that objectively Joel made the right call. If people want to rank actions in terms of morally "good or bad" I'll concede there are no clear winners, but I think Joel's decision edges out the rest in the end. While both he and Marlene are in the wrong for not asking Ellie what she wanted to do, this is overshadowed by the complete uncertainty of the Fireflies' cause. First, the the cure may not even work, or may not work for the majority and even if it does, the Fireflies would likely leverage it as a socio-political tool to gain the advantage over FEDRA, extending the war/rebellion and loss of life which would be several times more what Joel is responsible for at the hospital. The only thing certain in this situation *is* Joel's love for Ellie and his certainty that he would do everything in his power and beyond to provide a life for her, a future, relatively free of fear and danger (which he knows is possible from seeing Tommy and the elderly couple). What I will never excuse is lying to Ellie about everything. I think he does it to absolve her of the 'responsibility' she felt but if your actions involve multiple homicides for her sake maybe don't lie to your daughter about it. Anyways, great reaction as always! Excited for whatever comes next!
Objectively he made the wrong call, if he can kill a bunch of people to save himself and be justified, them killing one girl to save the entire human race is more justified, that's how objective things work. Joel literally told the audience in episode 4 that if Marlene says they can make a cure, they can make a cure, this is the writers shoving it in the audiences faces that the cure would have worked. Not to mention the lying to her because he knows he's betraying what she'd want. Understandable what he did and you can still like him but don't use the word objective when you're not being objective, You're being biased cause you like Joel.
To add, I wouldn't characterize any moments during the series as the writers "shoving it in our faces" that it'd work. If anything it'd be the opposite. In the opening scene of the first 2 episodes they make a point to say that a cure would be impossible. "No treatments for this, no preventatives, no cures. They don't exist- it's not even possible to make them" and the mycologist also reinforces this idea. Also, some rag-tag organization losing a war to an oppressive military state is going to synthesize a cure and give it away for free during their rebellion? No way. What would likely happen is the rebellion is prolonged, more people die, FEDRA gets their hands on the cure then subjugates the population to solidify their power. There's no doubt Joel is not a good man, but I think his choice here was the only one with any *certain* potential for a positive outcome, even if it's just for one 14 year old girl. And yes, him rescuing her was also because he couldn't stand to lose another daughter and would most certainly kill himself, but these motivations are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.
Yeah, the real issues is that both the Fireflies and Joel denied Ellie her choice in this. I think Joel was right to save her, but he should've told the truth. It's a "beautiful" ethical dilemma to throw at us at the end of a season.
I’m surprised that people disagreed with Joel’s decisions. Maybe when I was younger I would have had a different perspective, but I don’t think so. However, as a parent with a daughter I’d do exactly the same thing as Joel. Every person in that hospital was willing to kill a child who was not even given a choice. Ellie may have made the decision to sacrifice herself. But no kid should ever have to make that choice Maybe when she was 25 and her brain is fully formed I’d consider telling her the truth. But taking one child’s life because it might save people in my view is never a choice. Even if it was 100% a cure a kid isn’t equipped to make that kind of decision. Maybe because it is hypothetical it is easier to say I’d sacrifice a kid. But it scares me that so many people think that way, I’d hope if they had to do it in real life their humanity would stop then.
Watching the reactions and reading the comments sort of prove how we are absolutely monsters when it comes to love. We would do anything even doom humanity for love. And viewers cheer on the killing. The answer is there are no right answers.
This season ends pretty much identically to how the first game ends. I have a feeling that there will be three seasons and the second game will be split up because it's an incredibly long and complex story in the second game that couldn't possibly be told in just 9 episodes.
She was down and quiet because she was still traumatized by her almost rape and imprisonment and having to murder someone from the last episode. No matter how time had passed. She got the reality of what she always wanted by being more like Joel and it is now only hitting her what that is.
As someone who still to this day wholeheartedly would be Joel in that hospital doing all I can to save Ellie knowing full well I am damning the human race, I cannot help but believe Marlene was in the right not to tell/ask Ellie if she was willing to sacrifice herself. Overall MOST humans are an US before THEM thinker its just a phycological fact as its easier to recognize the US needs and feel more grounded in them. Joel thinks of his US as him and Ellie and probably Tommy and their needs outweigh THEM the rest of the world. Frankly after playing the game many times and watching the show I still side with Joels decision because I have grown too attached. The flip side of this is Marlene is actually able to distance herself from the US and think of the THEM when she decides not to tell Ellie and honestly she is right. If I were to find myself in her shoes with no attachment to the person who holds the cure ( sure she was there when Ellie was born and she's her friends daughter but Ellie is NOT part of Marlenes US) I would have made a very similar choice. You can't risk Ellie saying "no" in the classic trolley problem you have to sacrifice one to save EVERYONE in this case. Marlenes only mistake is not appropriately dealing with Joel so that he has no way to impact it.
The ending is morally conflicting. We would all protect our loved ones, no matter what… it blinds you, clouds your judgements. On the outside looking in, we can see both sides of the coin. What if it worked? Humanity can be saved. But what if it doesn’t? The hell Ellie has gone through in her short life, especially in the time trying to get from Boston to Jackson to Salt Lake City, it would’ve been for nothing. Joel made the decision in a split second that Ellie deserved to live on, and he was going to make that happen no matter what. He didn’t hesitate… the surgeon stepping forward with the scalpel? Joel wasn’t even going to let him try and reason with him… Marlene? “You’ll just come after her”. No hesitation, no remorse. Now he has to live with that. Not just his actions saving Ellie, and in effect damning the world to continue scraping through the apocalypse, but also the lies he told to Ellie. Season 2… those of us that have played The Last Of Us: Part 2 know what a ride that is going to be. There is a suggestion that the events of Part 2 may not be covered in a single season, but possibly two. It will be very interesting to see how they adapt the story from this point forward.
I can see why they took out a lot of amazing scenes/moments. Gameplay is its own animal when it comes to story telling, and you're able to pace things completely differently. But I'm glad the show didn't just add everything in, since it would of felt like filler and broke the pacing.
@@WheresWaldo05 Episode 7 was literally identical to the DLC of the first game, almost scene for scene, nothing wrong with some backstory on how she was first bitten. Episode 3 was some beautiful butt stuff, I know it triggers you to see it, but that said it truly was something special. You're not a snowflake at all.
Joel is right under the circumstances. However he definitely need to come clean to Ellie about what happened and why. If people are so convinced Ellie would be willing to sacrifice herself. Whey didn't Marlene give her a choice? Ellie deserved the dignity of a choice. If she had(Maybe) Ellie would have been willing to sacrifice herself dispite the chance of failure. Failure would mean Ellie died for nothing. Unfortunately Marlene/fireflies chose to lie and were about to murder an unconscious child. Real heroes don't do that. So before anyone vilifies Joel think about this: Do you think the Dr that was about to murder Ellie would allow his own child to be sacrifice? Highly unlikely especially if he was expected to do the surgery. Ellie's life isn't worth less than the Dr's child. So I say agian Joel did the right thing. The show would also be over if Ellie had died.
@@NPA1001 (Spoiler warning) I didn't play the game but unfortunately saw spoilers about the game sequel. So I believe the Dr that was about to kill Ellie has a daughter named Abby. I highly doubt the Dr (Abbys father) would let Abby be sacrificed if she immune. Even to save humanity so that would make him a hypocrite.
@@NPA1001 Ellie loves Joel and in her eyes he is a father figure and a hero. I don't want to say spoilers and ruin things for others. So all I'll say is I hope you're not calling a particular golf club murderer a hero.
Ellie didn't get a choice. Heroes don't murder unconscious children. However that's exactly what some people think Joel should have let happen. What happened to the Dr's medical ethics (do no harm?) I don't want to mention spoilers so all I'll say is. Does anyone think the Dr that was about to kill Ellie would be willing to sacrifice his own child to save humanity. I doubt it. Especially if he was expected to do the surgery. Making him a hypocrite. Ellie's life isn't worth less than his child's life. I'm not interested in a GOT style season 2
@@hliugemre Just because you think Ellie would be willing, doesn't change the fact that she should have been given a choice. Once agian there was no guarantee of success. Meaning she'd die for nothing. The Dr (Abbys father) was going to kill Ellie. You can't honestly think he'd murder Abby to save humanity if she was in Ellie's place. Of course he wouldn't. So killing Ellie would make him a hypocrite. Any parent with a soul would do exactly what Joel did if they could to save their child.
@@hliugemre Yes Ellie would be angry Joel lied, but not angry he saved her life because she wasn't given a choice by Marlene. You can't tell me Ellie wouldn't be angry with the fireflies for lying and trying to murder her without a choice. Clearly you know who the Doctor was (Abbys father) but refuse to understand his hypocracy. You know full well had Abby been in Ellie's position the Dr would have done exactly what Joel did if he could. Only an emotionally detached sociopath wouldn't try to save their child.
@@hliugemre You sound so angry Joel saved everyone's favorite character. You seem to not realize had Joel not saved Ellie there never would have been a game sequel or tv show. Ellie is a 14 year old child and no parent with any love for their child would let them be killed. I guess you would. Maybe Ellie says that insane BS you claim in the game sequel, but no rational person would be angry at someone for preventing their murder. You clearly don't understand that most viewers love Joel and Ellie, want them to both survive, and haven't played the game. The reality is that at (no) point in the (show) so far has Ellie told Joel she is ok with the fireflies killing her in vaccine/cure making process. In fact in this last episode Ellie did say she wanted to finish it and implies she is willing to (risk) her life to find the fireflies. At this point Ellie and Joel clearly believe the fireflies only need her blood to make the vaccine. She also told Joel she would follow him anywhere and that she'd go with him anywhere he wants after they help the fireflies. That clearly means Ellie was expecting to be alive to leave with Joel. So based on that obvious information it makes zero sense for anyone including Ellie to expect Joel to not save her. So if Ellie really wants to sacrifice herself fine. She can finally tell Joel that, because that's not what she told him in season 1 So vilifying Joel makes no sense. Ellie was literally talking about the future with Joel and you vilify him for saving her. That's insane. Only a heartless sociopath wouldn't understand why he did it.
If anyone is to be blamed now or later in season2 is Marlene & not Joel. If that doesn't happen whatever showrunners present is a simply a stupidity. Here's why - Joel's actions are direct result of Marlene's decision to hurry up things. Firstly did he have that opportunity to give Ellie a choice? They are saying that Joel didn't give her a choice & took away the chance to save humanity. Which is logically & factually wrong. Joel gets to give Ellie a choice only in one scenario - If Marlene told Ellie about the killing surgery, Ellie said yes to die willingly & is allowed to meet Joel. Then & only then he can allow or deny Ellie's wish. So as a parent Joel is left with only one thing to do & he did that thing. If Ellie says Yes & even then Joel kills everyone then & only then he is to be blamed.. Would Ellie say Yes to die? Maybe yes. But Marlene doesn't give that chance to Elli, therefore we don't actually know what Ellie might have said 'before' the surgery (Whatever she may say afterwards is her afterthought considering whatever happened). So before the surgery whatever Joel does is a direct consequence of Marlene's actions.. Never in the series Ellie was expecting to 'die'. She was hoping to get it done (maybe blood samples, tests etc.) & then go away to live with Joel happily. Why so much hurry from Marlene's part? They waited for 20 years, what's another couple of months? If someone just tells me that my child is being 'murdered' without their knowledge, I can't even see them & I was supposed to walk away from the premises; then no matter what the greater purpose of that murder is.. I would do the exact thing as Joel did! If HBO ignores this simple fact in next season & decides to blame Joel instead of Marlene then they will have very angry reactions from the parents. Protecting the children from the 'predator' is a primal animal instinct. The only thing I don't like on Joel's part is that he lied to her. IMO he should have been upfront about why he did it. Ellie might have disagreed with his actions but she definitely would have understood his motives (selfless/selfish love for his daughter) better. Was he afraid that killing of these many people will just feed her survivor's guilt? Or he is afraid that he will have to justify his actions? Or under her current PTSD influence will she see Joel as a bad person & end the relationship, or even worse take her own life?
You don't have to wait for Season 2. Just pick up a Playstation:). Also: one of the nurses at the end is played by Laura Bailey, who voices...a character in the second game.
Is Joel the villain? It is certainly a valid point personally I think that the fireflies was willing to kill a teenager for a potential cure there were no guarantees and you could argue also could the fireflies really distribute a cure to a population spread across thousands of square miles? So in my humble opinion Joel did what he had to protect his daughter. He killed because they him left no other choice they would have killed him otherwise.
@@VColossalV to a certain extent I would agree her choice should be considered for sure, but you can also make the case that a 14 year old might not have the mental capacity to really make that choice (understanding every aspect of it and calculate consequences), but I think it is a valid point to make for sure, but in the case of the show/game they dont give her the choice they make it for her, so under thise circumstances I understand why Joel did what he did. If Ellie made the choice is a hypothetical scenario that we can only guess on how that would turn out. I am trying to analyse within the choices that are made in the show, but I think your point is very valid.
@@Julini89 If she wants to sacrifice herself to save the world that is her choice to make, she knows the consequences, death. Joel lies to her because he knows she would do it. Nobody should make the choice for her.
@@VColossalV I agree completely. yes she would understand the consequences that she would die on that I agree, but I am not sure she would know how weigh those consequences against the fact the cure is not a gurantee it is a maybe, or if it actually works what are the changes that the fireflies can actually manage to spread it around the globe. those are variables that should be considered in such a choice and I have serious doubts if a teenager would be capable of that, and to me there is a moral gray area if we are letting a teenager make life and death decisions that they might not completely understand, but in the end yes it should be her call and no1 elses for sure.
So on the one hand, Joel saved his adopted daughter from certain death. On the other hand, he may have doomed the entire human race. Either way, though, he's making the same mistake as Marlene in that he's not letting Ellie make the choice for herself.
All trolley problems are false dichotomies. Never feel like you have to answer one way or the other. There's always a 3rd option. -Marlene never gave Ellie the chance to decide for herself. -Ellie is a child. She deserves a life, and is too young to decide whether she should give up her own life, regardless of the "number it could save". -The fact that it happened with Ellie means that it could have happened to someone else. -They could have waited for Ellie to live, to decide as an adult whether or not to sacrifice herself. Heck, maybe if she ever had a kid, the umbilical cord could have even had something in it. -They could have waited for a brain surgeon so that they could remove enough of it from her brain without killing her.
IMO Ellie clearly doesn't know the possible cure will cost her her life, she was never given an option to decide and she wanted to see Joel before the surgery that she had no idea would be her death, long story short I'm 100percent team Joel... IMO
The girl who played Ellie's mom is Ellie's actress from the game
Ellie gave birth to Ellie. Poetic
I dont think this is true (im wrong)
@@HellionSol What?
@@HellionSolIt's definitely true.
@@HellionSol Ashley Johnson. Voice and mo-cap actress for Ellie in the game.
I was not emotionally prepared for the scene where Joel admitted he failed at taking his own life and he and Ellie cry saying they’re both happy he’s still here. Many people can relate to that unfortunately. I think Joel may have sensed that Ellie was experiencing some depression and told her that to remind her that he’s also been there and that it’ll be okay.
While they are hard to watch, I think the show has handled difficult subject matter like mental health/suicide and SA very tastefully. Give Pedro and Bella their Emmys now!
The “it wasn’t time that did it” hit me like a frickin truck.
That was such a great line.
The unspoken "It was you, Ellie" is what hit me the hardest. Joel, who has only ever been vulnerable around Tommy, opened himself up to Ellie - and it was the ultimate proof he has accepted her as family, and as his daughter. The comparisons he was doing between Ellie and Sarah later in the episode reminded me of how a parent occasionally takes stock of their kids, kind of outlining each one's place in their world.
"Save who you can save."
-Tess
"And you were my purpose."
-Bill
"Love me the way i want to."
-Frank
"I got you, babygirl."
-Joel
"Stay awake with me"
-Sam
"We can lose our minds together."
-Riley
"It wasn't time that did it."
-Joel
@@Kayjee17 when he broke down with Tommy and begged him to take the burden from because he just couldn't do it anymore was one of the most heartbreaking scenes in the show.
Great reaction as always! Two quick things:
1.) Yes, the baby playing baby Ellie is a real baby
2.) Yes, the giraffe Ellie petted is real
Shoutout to the production team behind this show for making two spectacular moments in a spectacular show. Can’t wait for season 2!
Real baby hype, real giraffe hype ❤
They did the ending perfectly. As a HUGE fan of the games, this whole show was excellent. I am so so so happy they executed it so incredibly and so many people got on board with the show. Im so happy you loved it
When the original script was written for the game Neil Druckman asked all production team if they thought Joel made the right decision.. of those who had no kids it was split 50:50 on whether they thought Joel was right… of all those who had kids 100% of them said Joel was right.
I'm guessing that you listen to the official show podcast, right? I listened to it as well, snd I was struck by that bit of info ftom Neil Druckman. Lots of good insights about what went into making both the game and the show.
Oh
But the truth is that neither Joel nor the Fireflies were 100% right or wrong. Anyone who is being objective should be able to see that, but a parent isn't able to be objective in that kind of situation.
@@markfilla9305 indeed been great listen to Neil, Craig and Troy (and this week Ashley) feel sad that not only has my favourite show has now ended for a long while but also my new favourite pod cast as well.
Joel is right under the circumstances. However he definitely need to come clean to Ellie about what happened and why.
Marlene should have given Ellie the dignity of a choice. If she had done so (Maybe) Ellie would have been willing to sacrifice herself dispite the chance of failure.
Unfortunately Marlene/fireflies chose to lie and were about to murder an unconscious child.
Real heroes don't do that.
So before anyone vilifies Joel think about this: Do you think the Dr that was about to murder Ellie would allow his own child to be sacrifice?
Highly unlikely especially if he was expected to do the surgery.
Ellie's life isn't worth less than the Dr's child. So I say agian Joel did the right thing.
What Joel made very clear in this episode is that he would do anything to prevent having his heart crushed again and torn from his chest. Unless you experienced loss in the same manner as Joel did with Sarah you could never fully understand what motivated him in that hospital, which I fear went somewhere beyond just love for Ellie. Joel in essence recovered a part of himself that he had lost so long ago and he's intent on never letting it go EVER again, if he can help it anyway.
It's awesome we got Ashley Johnson to play Ellie's mom who is Ellie in the games. Yes Ellie would of been fine with it and had Marlene let Ellie decide and tell Joel about her decision everything would of been different but Marlene made the decision herself, Joel did not want to lose another child. Also an old saying came back " the world took Joel's daughter and Joel took the cure away from the world."
Your final closing statements about the “tragic world” and how the characters loved each other is exactly the story the creators set out to tell. The world is tragic but the story is ultimately about love and how, despite everything, it perseveres in such a tragic world. How it’ll drive us to extreme measures both in beauty and destruction. Very insightful analysis Addie!
Fun Fact: The music playing while Joel rampages through the hospital is called
“All Gone (No Escape)”
Apologies for the long comment..... but here it is anyway, haha.
I knew a few tidbits from the first game, such as Sarah's death occurring on the night of the outbreak and that the story centred around Joel guiding Ellie across country and forming a father-daughter type bond along the way, I haven't actually played the games, however, so this series has been quite the journey.
Ellie's birth scene was amazing... and tragic... and scary... and beautiful... and really interesting as the likely source of her immunity. What a devastating thing for Marlene though. They certainly were very different people, but like Joel, Marlene was someone hardened by this world. They also both made the same mistake at the end, taking the decision away from Ellie.
I love that following the flashback they then opened up with Ellie's trauma and the change in her personality, hard as it was to see. It is realistic, though, as the experiences she has had over the previous months would undoubtedly damage a person. Especially a teenager, their hormone riddled bodies and brains being generally ill equipped to deal with their emotions as it is, haha..... we've all been there.
Some of the conversations in this episode were so well crafted. The one where Joel tells Ellie they can still turn around, go live a quiet life back at Tommy's, and she responds that they have to go all the way with their mission perfectly foreshadows Joel's conflict later in the episode. He knows Ellie would probably choose to die for a shot at saving humanity, but he just can't stand to lose her.
I also loved the conversation where Joel discusses trying to kill himself. It was the most honest and vulnerable Joel has been with her throughout. I think he realised she was needing that from him, but it was also something he simply wanted to give to her to show just how much she had come to mean to him. He was expressing to her that as dark and painful as it may get at times, you will find the light and the beauty again. You will find yourself again. That of course culminated in the moment where he indicates to Ellie that it was she that had healed him from the wound that was the loss of Sarah, she who had led him back to the light, the beauty, and to himself again - such a touching moment. Seeing Joel come from being this person who was extremely closed-off and bitter for 20yrs to this moment of open vulnerability and hope was such a great representation of that healing and how far their relationship had come.
The sound design on the hospital rescue scene (where Joel rescues Ellie from the surgeon's knife) was amazing. The music was dominant, with the sounds of gunshots, spent shells pinging on the floor, and the occasional agonised scream heard underneath it. That, and the music itself, created a great deal of tension and left a sombre sense in the air. This was no moment of triumph or joy and I think we got that same sombre sense from Joel in the car afterwards. Sure he saved Ellie, but he again had to kill to do it and he also understands that he may have just resigned humanity to eventual extinction. You can see in that moment that he's hugely conflicted and he knows that he acted somewhat selfishly, but he so desperately wanted Ellie to have the chance at a full and decent life that Sarah never got. He also knows that Marlene was probably right when she said that Ellie would give her life for a cure. Afterall, that's why he lies to her, right? Because she would have chosen to sacrifice herself and would be pissed that he did what he did. Despite this, despite knowing that Ellie would probably choose the surgery, he still couldn't bring himself to let her go. Whilst we can all make the argument for why Joel should have acted for the greater good, I think we can all understand why he didn't also, so it's super hard to be highly critical of him. I think it's this that makes this ending such a compelling one. Ultimately, however, as I said above this should have been Ellie's decision to make and both Joel and Marlene took it from her. They should have fully informed her and then supported her in making her decision in her own time and free from pressure or coercion.
Joel and Ellie's final conversation was again brilliantly crafted. In opening up about Riley I think Ellie was essentially saying to Joel, "Hey, this is my deepest, most painful secret and I'm about to be totally honest with you about it, so I expect you to be the same when I ask you about what happened back at the hospital." She obviously has her doubts about Joel's story, but I think she so desperately wants it to be true, so desperately wants to have not been betrayed by the one person she trusts and loves in this world, that she's willing herself to accept it. Deep down, however, I think there's a part of her that knows he's lying. Please, no spoilers, but I can't help thinking that Joel's lie is going to come back to bite him in the second game/season. Through all this trauma and adversity they've slowly built a loving relationship on a foundation of openness and trust. This fact was really highlighted by the conversations they shared throughout this episode, so I suspect that trust will be broken when Ellie learns the truth about what happened at the hospital and that she still might hold the potential for a cure. Though it pains me to say, I think this will likely be a major source of conflict between the two next season.
Anyway, this first season has been great. The writing, the music, the casting, the directing, the cinematography, the acting, etc, etc, etc has all been top notch. Special mention of course for Bella and Pedro, they've carried this story brilliantly.
Thanks for your reactions, let's do it all again come season two.
Marlene was willing to let Ellie choose though, Joel was not. He knows what choice she makes.
@@VColossalV it’s honestly a no-win situation. If Ellie picks surgery (which was likely the case), joel wouldn’t allow that which is why he’s making the choice for her. And then if Ellie chose no surgery and the choice to live, you know Marlene and the fireflies wouldn’t allow “the cure” to just walk out the door.
@@diisomoto it shouldn't be either of them that should make the choice for her, but at least with the Fireflies they are looking beyond themselves in the decision, Marlene raised Ellie, and grew up with her mother, yet she is putting that aside as difficult as that is and choosing to save the world.
@@VColossalV I agree that Ellie should be the one to decide. I'm just saying that in all of their righteousness, if Ellie decided not to go through the surgery for her own personal reasons, there's no way the fireflies would be ok with that decision.
I'm glad they showed Joel picking up the fireflies weapons as he progressed through the hospital. In the game you barely had enough and you had to really watch what you used throughout the game.
If she was so confident that Ellie was willing to sacrifice herself to _possibly_ create a cure, why didn't they ask her before the surgery whether she was willing to sacrifice herself?
Beautiful reaction Addie! So glad you watched this show. Also, I read today that there will be at least two more seasons to cover the second game.
Fun fact about this show: a bunch of the actors from the video game actually appear in the TV show, although most of them play different characters in the show than they did in the game
4:12-4:16, When Marlene enters the room, notice that Anna was holding the knife to her neck? She was doing this in case the others didn't get here and she started to lose her ability to control her body, she was prepared to end herself if she had to, for her daughter. But if she lived to speak to Marlene, she could ask her to take the baby and find her a safe home. She lowered the knife because Marlene was there, she was no longer Ellie's last hope for survival.
Episode 2 was similar, but her answer was "Jury's still out. But you can't deny that view." so not exactly the same, but very related.
Realistically, it would be akin to removing a tumor from a brain, very risky to do. But in removing a tumor, you care about getting all the tumor with as little damage to the surrounding brain tissue. The plan here is to get as much of this specific cordyceps, the brain is expendable. Which to me seems an extreme "first attempt" since they have no assurance they can reproduce this specific cordyceps in the lab, and they'll only have 1 chance to harvest it. If they fail to reproduce it, they've killed the only known source.
They chose not to tell her the price, and to a limited degree I can understand why. If she says it's worth it, it eases the burden on their consciences "She chose this". But if she says "no" then they have the dilemma of having offered her the choice, and living with her answer, or actively doing this against her will, with no question how she would have answered. While the people in charge might be fine with going against her wishes, what about _everyone else_ involved, if they know?
13:20-13:28 A man who isn't supposed to be here, comes in, tells you to unhook the patient you're about to kill. The man has a gun, and he's probably already killed everyone who was around here to protect you, and you choose to pick up a scalpel (not suitable for a thrown weapon, so you'll have to get really close to him) and say "I won't let you take her." Who could see the outcome of that scenario like a huge flashing LED billboard sign?
*IF* they gave Ellie the choice, *and* Ellie chose to be the price paid, I think it would take a little time between them, and Joel would accept Ellie's decision. She wasn't given the choice, she didn't agree to die. They were taking that choice away from her, and he knew that. Once he had safely extracted her, he didn't want his decisions to be second guessed by her, and a lie to comfort her was his choice. A choice he has to live with, and a lie that may one day come out.
Most of this show was shot in Alberta: Calgary, Edmonton, Fort Macleod, Canmore and High River. I live in such a beautiful province. 😊🇨🇦. It was also very cool to see Ashley Johnson in this episode as I know her from Growing Pains and Blind Spot and then to later find out that she provided the voice of Ellie in the game is very awesome!!
Didn't realize Ashley was in the game. Doesn't surprise me though, as she is a serious gamer herself.
I've watched a lot of reactors share thier reaction videos for "The last of us", I've to say I enjoyed yours the most. I've never played the game as well, and I feel your reaction videos were outstanding because you didn't have any prior insights to the storyline. 👍 ❤ 📹
It's super thought provoking, as far as thinking back to all the characters we've met along the journey. They all had their reasons and motivations for making the decisions they made, yet we always justified Joel's actions. Once he murders a hospital full of people, who are trying to find a cure to save what's left of the human race to protect one person, you kind of have to ask if he's still the good guy in this story. In the last scene, when Ellie starts to list names (Riley, Tess) and she's cut off by Joel, I feel like at that moment you know she would've sacrificed herself in the hope of stopping anymore needless death.
Joel killed a bunch of people who were going to cut up a 14 year old kid (without her knowing btw) after a few tests. Joel saved Ellie. There is no "moral dilemma" with what Joel did to the Fireflies. The life of the individual is more important than the possibility of "saving" the collective.
I watch movies and shows to get lost and not have to think.
Ellie giving birth to Ellie... 🥲
Yeh I interpreted it as Anna got bit while Ellie was still attached to the umbilical cord which gave her just enough exposure for immunity. Similar to the way vaccines work
Fantastic reaction to a spectacular season! Easily earned my subscription! The Joel character strikes me as amazingly similar to the Captain Malcolm Reynolds character in the 1-season series called "Firefly". If you haven't seen that yet, please consider treating yourself and your viewers to that excellent show, too. Cheers!
It's been a great journey with you covering this series. I look forward to your future content.
Watching TLoU along with you has been fantastic! I played the game, but the show was different enough to feel like a new experience while keeping most of the bits that made the game great. I'm glad you liked it, and I'll be here to watch Season Two with you!
I know you probably get most of your recommendations from Patreon, but I feel obligated to suggest "Firefly," or "The Haunting of Hill House" if you decide to pick up another series to replace TLoU. Also, someone in another comment mentioned "Heroes" Season One, and I'd second that suggestion.
Thx for posting so quickly Addie! Your Last of Us reactions have been so great. I swear!
I really think that the fireflies were not as good as we think. They should have welcomed Joel due to his work in protecting Ellie and come so far. And if they really talked about the option with Joel and Ellie, Ellie will surely sacrifice herself for the cure. Joel of course will not accept it but still has a chance to say goodbye to Ellie. I think this will be a better ending if the fireflies have dealt with kind attitude. The thing I hate the most is that Marlene still think of Joel as the bad guy, and eventhough she said that she owed Joel for bringing Ellie to them she still treats him like a jerk. I think the fireflies will not be a better choice to govern people if they had won against FEDRA. They are the same as Cathleen's group
Very correct. I honestly side with Fedra (at least, the Fedra admin in Boston). They kept a functioning society running.
@@lausdeo4944not as well functioning as for example Jackson.
@@kilian8250 I don't find Jackson realistic in the slightest.
Military government based around authoritarian order: a thing that happens.
Communal society WITHOUT any major unifying force or goal (say, religion or ideology): a thing that always fails.
Even Fedra is pushing the boundaries of believability, since all real-world societies have unifying, driving cosmological frameworks (Boston doesn't seem to, other than stability/order = good). The societies that don't are collapsing in on themselves into tribalism and eventual civil strife (the West in general).
The beautiful agony of an incredibly well written story
🙌🏼
Nice reaction, Addie. Seeing Ellie's mother giving birth to Ellie, after infected and giving her away to Marlene and telling her to kill her to save Ellie at the beginning of this episode was very heartbreaking. So many tough decisions to make in this episode and this show as a whole. BTW, it's neat that Ellie's mom was played by the actress who played her in the video game. And it's pretty sweet that Joel finally opens up to Ellie and it was awesome & heartwarming when Joel came searching for Ellie in the hospital. He was doing this from the bottom of his heart because of how much he cared for her and finally redeemed himself after losing his daughter, Sarah, back in 2003. Thank you so much for reacting to this season of the show and I also thank Jeremy for suggesting it to you. I'm looking forward to seeing more ADDIEventures with your reactions on both TH-cam & Patreon, real soon.
While his past experiences did impact his decisions and he is not truly a bad person, I would hardly call lying to her and slaughtering all the fireflies redemption, he took the cure away from humanity, even knowing that she would choose to make that sacrifice. Even good people can do monstrous things.
Everyone talks about the Mama Bear's wrath, but Joel shows us the wrath of Papa Bear. He's already had a daughter taken from him before, he won't allow it again. The things a man will do for his child is absolutely terrifying yet beautiful.
the person who plays abby in the last of us 2 game is one of the female nurse in the operation room
Did anyone catch the shot of the dead doctor? Hope it's a precursor for the next season which imo has to be more episodes or at least two seasons to really pull off everything that is in part two.
It has been confirmed that Part 2 of the game will be stretch into two seasons. So I have a pretty good clue on how the second season is going to end to set up the third season. *spoilers*
The last words *You killed all my friend's... We let you live and you wasted it* "cut to black" ~ Closing credits
The showrunners have confirmed that it'll take more than one season to cover everything from The Last of Us Part II, so we already know so far we're getting at least to season 3. :)
Did you hear that crack?
That was Pedro knocking it out of the park.
The Emmy goes to...
I am french, and here is a tip to all non-english speaker: if you want the perfect definition of "bittersweet", just look at the ending of this episode.
Thank you for sticking with it! It was a rough series with a very difficult choice at the end!
I never played the game (I watched the old YT of Markiplier play it while watching this series), but I hope in Part 2 they slow down a little and get in more combat. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the feels of season one, but I think they could get into more fights. The games are very combat oriented and I know a lot of people wanted more of that.
What's crazy is that that is exactly how the first game ended. What's more crazy is that they were adamant that there would not be a sequel. That exchange of "I swear" and "okay" was how Joel and Ellie's story ended. But eventually money talked lol
It's really interesting how throughout the show, when you give your thoughts at the end of the videos, you keep saying "us," or "we" as if you're a part of the story, when you obviously arent. It makes me feel like you're really connecting to this show, which as a huge fan of this show, I really love
really enjoyed your reactions to the show!
Hey, Addie! Ashley Johnson, who voiced Ellie in the game played Ellie's pregnant mom, Anna.
The giraffes are straight out of the game. I'm so glad they kept that scene in!
Save for the birth scene and a final action-packed push through a clicker- and bloater-infested tunnel en route to the hospital, the episode plays out almost exactly like the game!
There are no other options! Neurosurgeons are a rarity in an apocalyptic world! Humanity's existence is poised on a knife's edge. The stakes are too big to risk Ellie saying 'no'. Joel sacrificed the lives of everyone in the hospital and everyone who dies of cordyceps from that day forward!
Ellie had already decided before the hospital that she would see her mission through no matter what the cost and told Joel so. She said, "There's no halfway with this."
Who wouldn't sacrifice themselves to save the world? It is her sole purpose for being. To deny fulfillment of this goal is to deny her destiny.
Frankly, even if she didn't want to, she should be forced to kicking and screaming. It's devil's arithmetic but how would you feel if a loved one could have been spared but for the refusal of the one who carried the cure? What supreme arrogance!
The big surprise at the end of the game is when you are forced to kill the entire medical team to advance the plot. The game doesn't move along until you slaughter them all.
At that point, you realize that your POV character, Joel, is the villain who dooms the world for purely selfish reasons. Heroes sacrifice. Joel does not.
Ellie knows he is lying to her but she accepts the lie out of love for her surrogate father because the truth of his monstrous, self-serving decision is too horrifying to acknowledge.
The hero was the villain all along.
Apart from the opening with Eliies mom which is completely new and not in the games, and the way the fireflies get them (in the game they go through a flooded tunnel, ellie nearly drowns and they are saved by fireflies) when Joel Wakes up in the Hospital is EXACTLY how the first game ends as well
The giraffe scene is my favorite in the game as well and when they announced the TV Show i said if they dont have the giraffes, the best scene would be missing.
also Joel failing at shooting himself and the scar being on the same side as his almost deaf ear.... yeah he's probably responsible for not hearing on that ear.
What a brutal, but brilliant episode. As a non gamer i am loving both show and the reaction
my overall view on the show - Im not a game player, Im old, Im satisfied and Joel found his purpose... To quote a wise man
Did Addie pull a Forrest Gump? “He stitched himself up?” “He’s got a daddy named Forrest too?”
The key for me is that the sacrifice of Ellie wouldn't be sure to find a cure. Even Marlene only said it "might" result in a cure. And it might be a complete failure. They should find a different way, like using the knowledge of how Ellie's condition came about, to find an ethical cure.
That's the case for every fucking vaccine and medication in the world. It always starts with "mights" and "tests"
@@アキコ2003 And how many of those end up failing and never being released?
@@StumpyTales and they still need to be done for progress and learning, kid.
@@アキコ2003 You're missing the point quite spectacularly. You don't develop medicines by surgically executing people on the hope that it *might work*. There are other ways. #science
Also, "kid"? Probably the first time anyone's called me that for about 50 years. So, ummm thanks I guess?
You are 100% right they were clear it might not work. Technically, though, no one said Ellie was certain to die either. Brain surgery isn't a death sentence even when they remove parts of the brain (and in this case removing parts of the brain wasn't really the goal, just the other stuff growing there). They didn't give enough information to say much about the relative probabilities (like 50% chance of her dying/30% chance of a cure, or 10% and 90%, or any other mix).
I've already watched it and I'M still not ready!
Welcome to the Global Debate of 'Did Joel make the right decision?' Its been an unsettled issue since the release of the game June of 2013. For the last 10 years fans of the game have been arguing both sides. This is what makes 'The Last of Us' so damn compelling. As a lover of games and movies/tv alike I'm so glad this story was brought to a live action adaption for others to experience it. Just so everybody knows whenever seasons 2 and 3 air...stock up on kleenex cause season 1 is child's play by comparison.
Joel went full Terminator in that hospital once he had nothing left to lose. Period.
what joel does is kind of monstrous... BUT - the ONE REDEEMING THING that the episode doesn't really deal with is the fact that the fireflies didn't give ellie a choice either. joel had a choice but even more critically, the fireflies had a choice. when they denied her that choice, it set joel on a SOMEWHAT JUSTIFIABLE rampage. i just wish he kind of explained it to ellie that way.
Hello. I've really been enjoying a lot of your videos lately. Thanks for the content.
It sounds like you aren't going to play the game, but you can still watch it on youtube. There should be some edits with only the cutscenes and dialogue. If you do decide to check it out, I recommend The Last of Us Part 1 Remake version as it's the most graphically enhanced. Part 1 won't spoil anything farther than what you've seen already.
Have an awesome day!
both the fireflies and joel committed the same crime- they took away Ellie's right to choose.
there are no heroes in this story.
I can't believe it's over already😢. Such an amazing series
Hurray! They had the giraffes! I was worried about RL logistical stuff making it too much trouble! Yay!
(the trolly problem) is perhaps better recalled as -
"The needs of the many... outweigh the needs of the few... or the one."
~ Spock
...this was a beautiful reaction to an awesome series. Thank you!
I believe Joel actually solved the trolly problem with the one variable that is usually omitted.
If you know none of the principles involved...the sacrifice is easy, one vs many...the many outweigh the one.
In Spock's case, HE was the known principle but he was also the one MAKING the decision and it was self-sacrifice, which is also self-serving (I won't go into it but Phoebe on Friends makes a great case for "there is no such thing as a selfless act").
In Joel's case and the biggest dilemma most people make...do you know and love the one person vs a group (no matter the size) of strangers. No backstories, bios or information on any of them to allow you to make the weighted decision. Someone you love vs strangers...strangers will lose.
@@crewchief5144 - Ellie means EVERYTHING to Joel now! You're completely right @ crew chief 5144... it didn't matter if the 'others' were the entire world... no others were ever going to stand a chance.
Back then, we did not know whether this story would see a continuation or not, for many many years. Both of their positions are relatable, Marlene doing it for mankind, Joel doing it for selfish reasons. But ultimately, both did the wrong thing, as they have robbed the one person of the choice that should have made it.
Lol at the idea that Marlene and the fireflies were really thinking of sharing any cure with anyone not willing to bow down under their rule.
@@zimvader25 Are you a FEDRA fascist? The Fireflies are literally fighting for the reason to reestablish democracy and all branches of government.
@@zimvader25 After 20 years of not being in charge of anything but jack and shit, I am not sure why yoiiu think their goal was domination reather, as they stated, freedom from FEDRA. Their real problem wasn't that they were secret fascists, it's that they were really overtly bad at fight the fascists (and all too willing to accept high levels of collateral damage-i.e. non-combatant casualties-in achieving their usually ineffective goals). Whatever else they were, I believe they were a mix of idealists and people who just wanted to kill FEDRA.
There's a difference in scale. Marlene tried to murder a child. Joel prevented a child from knowing that she had the option to sacrifice her life. The first sin is much larger.
@@brandonflorida1092 But at the same time one could just as easily say that Marlene was trying to save multitudes of people (including many children) by sacrificing a life that meant a lot to her (and thus by suffering herself), and Joel was trying to save just one, the one that mattered to him (because he would not suffer for the good of others). Marlene's virtue is therefore much greater, and Joel murdered her for that. (But note that both you and I have inserted the word "murder" and "sin/virtue" and there are value judgments in those words that make us presuppose certain conclusions.)
“Since you’re probably the only person who understands. I used to hate the world and I was happy when everyone died. But I was wrong, because there was one person worth saving. That’s what I did, I saved him. Then I protected him. That’s why man like you and me are here, we have a job to do, and God help any motherfckrs who stand in our way.” …’I swear’…
PLEASE react to Heroes (Season 1) and/or the tv series Friday Night Lights, Damages, Burn Notice & The Big Bang Theory
I also recommend the movies The Departed, Alpha Dog, Inside Man, I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry, The Devil Wears Prada, American Gangster & The Good Shepherd for the channel
“It isn’t for you to decide”
“Or you”
Even if Ellie had the decision, humanity seemed like it was destined to doom itself anyway. It was worth the shot, but maybe not. An all-time debatable topic.
I was 12 when The Last of Us came out, and I watched Let's Plays since I didn't have a PlayStation.. At the time, I remember siding 100% with Joel - killing them all and escaping with Ellie.
Now, at 22, the choice is darker and more muddied than ever before.
It's just *such* a beautiful story, that shows a unique form of human selfishness with equal amounts of compassion.
Thanks so much for your reactions to it.
Where I can see the movie???
Those of us who played the game had to wait seven years for Part II... Three years before it was announced and then four more years until it was released.
4:59 Thank you Ashley, you did an amazing job in this role and as OG Ellie. If Ashley does not get an Emmy for this I shall be personally offended on her behalf. 7:11 Straight out of the game. A most beautiful moment in Ellie's life. 9:23 NOT in the game. The game has Joel as this Ultimate badass (which he is) that has only one flaw the Murder of Sarah. HBO made Joel HUMAN. He is older, going deaf from all the shooting, has the ultimate burden of having killed innocents and he tried and failed at taking himself out. That is why I want to give him a big hug. Damn you Naughty Dog & HBO for making me cry; AGAIN.
I'm on both sides. If it was ME immune and given the choice I would let the surgery happen For All Mankind (if you know you know). But if it was MY segregate Daughter I would do just what Joel did. No hesitation.
Two Addie vids in one day? I'm going sound really corny but this must be heaven 🌽👍🏿👍🏿 #thingsanADDIEaddictthinksandsays
I'm looking forward to next season! So much to resolve! Joel went from transporter of cargo to protective father figure! Knowing he just damed the world to continue to suffer the infected!❤️💛😎😁☣️
You can always play the games while you wait
this is not the trolley problem, not really. In the classic trolley problem, the subject doesn't have emotional connection to anyone. And its generally posed such that inaction would lead to more people dying. This is the opposite and I think the point is that it's the easiest decision Joel has ever made.
I probably would've done everything Joel did up until the very end when Ellie said to swear to her he was telling the truth. I know Joel really cares but at that point just like Joel did in the situation of her going with him or Tommy to Colorado she deserves to make that choice.
Absolutely perfect. They did it perfect.
You should/could definetely watch some of the cutscenes of the game to compare with the show, and/or even better, play the second game!!!
The choice to save or sacrifice Ellie isn't a 50/50 choice. There's no guarantee they will make the cure at all. So the sacrifice could be for nothing.
The giraffe is actually real from the Calgary Zoo. Unfortunately, the blue screen and lighting made it look CGI
That's wild! I would have thought it was CGI.
No way haha the lighting sucked, I thought it was obviously CGI as well
The problem with comparing this to the trolley question for me is that I don't buy for a second that the Fireflies would have developed a cure. Their methods are questionable at best, too much for me to have any faith in their abilities or morals.
Joel did the RIGHT thing
ellie's mom looks just like ellie
I was worried about the short run time but I think they fit in everything that made the ending exquisite. The only thing I wish they could have extended, if anything, is the transition between Joel and Ellie getting knocked out till Joel wakes up and hears Ellie is in surgery. It still feels a tad rushed. But overall the pain points of Joel’s decision and subsequent lie still hit as hard as ever.
That, and you can see Ellie’s recognition that he is lying and choosing not to believe it more here. Such a good and powerful
note to end this chapter of the story.
The time between Joel being knocked out and waking up being told she is being prepped for surgery is exactly how it is in the game. The last episode is almost beat for beat exactly like the game (except for some infected gameplay).
The main difference is tv watches know there is a season 2.
When the game came out in 2013, this was the ending gamers were given. Without any knowledge that years later a sequel would be announced.
I would also avoid all TLOU part 2 info as there are bug spoilers ahead.
HOWEVER.
if you want a good teaser, look up 'the last of us 2 psx 2016 teaser trailer'
Amazing.
When I played the game, I was 100% with Joel in his choice to stop the surgery and save Ellie any way he had to. But when watching this episode. I was and still am so conflicted about it.
You should play the last of us part 2 it continúes right after this last scene is such a masterpiece one of the Best games of all the Time its much More brutall than the first game buch is such a beautifull AND painfull history you i love to watch It played.
It NEVER was really a choice for Joel to save Ellie or save the world. The Doctor only thought he might be able to wring out a cure. So they were willing to butcher Ellie on a MAYBE. So Joel's choice was really: A, 100% that Ellie will die and MAYBE they get a cure. Or, B, Joel saves his daughter Ellie, and she gets to live and Maybe more pregnant women will birth immune babies.
It shouldn't be Joels choice, it should be Ellies choice. He knows what she would choose, that's why he lies to her.
That ending was so abrupt... yet it works so well. Leaves me anxious for season 2 while resolving this arc of getting to the Firefly doctors. But yeah, I'm scared about Ellie finding out that Joel lied.
If season 2 follows the games then be prepared to be majorly disappointed!
@@akzane3030Speak for yourself. Part 2 surpasses Part 1 in almost every way, in my opinion.
@@TopNotchStoner yeah for you and 10 other people in the entire gaming community 😂
@@akzane3030 A lot of people feel the same way I do, actually. The haters are just very vocal. Until recently, Part 2 was literally the most awarded video game ever.
@@TopNotchStoner if it did so well then why are they going a different direction for season 2? Because people hated what they did to Joel! Say what you want but part two is universally hated by fans.
You should play the video game. Different experiences with some stuff.
all il say without giving any spoilers is gonna be pretty obvious...everything has consequences, what joel did at the hospital will follow them one way or another....I heard they're splitting the 2nd game into 2 seasons, but that makes sense because the way the second game is structured is 2 separate stories that converge. it also has alot more characters it has to introduce along with more tommy.
I really enjoyed the finale, and after having a while to think about it since I played the game ages ago, I've concluded that objectively Joel made the right call. If people want to rank actions in terms of morally "good or bad" I'll concede there are no clear winners, but I think Joel's decision edges out the rest in the end.
While both he and Marlene are in the wrong for not asking Ellie what she wanted to do, this is overshadowed by the complete uncertainty of the Fireflies' cause. First, the the cure may not even work, or may not work for the majority and even if it does, the Fireflies would likely leverage it as a socio-political tool to gain the advantage over FEDRA, extending the war/rebellion and loss of life which would be several times more what Joel is responsible for at the hospital.
The only thing certain in this situation *is* Joel's love for Ellie and his certainty that he would do everything in his power and beyond to provide a life for her, a future, relatively free of fear and danger (which he knows is possible from seeing Tommy and the elderly couple).
What I will never excuse is lying to Ellie about everything. I think he does it to absolve her of the 'responsibility' she felt but if your actions involve multiple homicides for her sake maybe don't lie to your daughter about it.
Anyways, great reaction as always! Excited for whatever comes next!
Objectively he made the wrong call, if he can kill a bunch of people to save himself and be justified, them killing one girl to save the entire human race is more justified, that's how objective things work. Joel literally told the audience in episode 4 that if Marlene says they can make a cure, they can make a cure, this is the writers shoving it in the audiences faces that the cure would have worked. Not to mention the lying to her because he knows he's betraying what she'd want. Understandable what he did and you can still like him but don't use the word objective when you're not being objective, You're being biased cause you like Joel.
To add, I wouldn't characterize any moments during the series as the writers "shoving it in our faces" that it'd work. If anything it'd be the opposite. In the opening scene of the first 2 episodes they make a point to say that a cure would be impossible. "No treatments for this, no preventatives, no cures. They don't exist- it's not even possible to make them" and the mycologist also reinforces this idea.
Also, some rag-tag organization losing a war to an oppressive military state is going to synthesize a cure and give it away for free during their rebellion? No way. What would likely happen is the rebellion is prolonged, more people die, FEDRA gets their hands on the cure then subjugates the population to solidify their power. There's no doubt Joel is not a good man, but I think his choice here was the only one with any *certain* potential for a positive outcome, even if it's just for one 14 year old girl. And yes, him rescuing her was also because he couldn't stand to lose another daughter and would most certainly kill himself, but these motivations are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.
Yeah, the real issues is that both the Fireflies and Joel denied Ellie her choice in this. I think Joel was right to save her, but he should've told the truth. It's a "beautiful" ethical dilemma to throw at us at the end of a season.
I’m surprised that people disagreed with Joel’s decisions. Maybe when I was younger I would have had a different perspective, but I don’t think so. However, as a parent with a daughter I’d do exactly the same thing as Joel.
Every person in that hospital was willing to kill a child who was not even given a choice. Ellie may have made the decision to sacrifice herself. But no kid should ever have to make that choice Maybe when she was 25 and her brain is fully formed I’d consider telling her the truth. But taking one child’s life because it might save people in my view is never a choice. Even if it was 100% a cure a kid isn’t equipped to make that kind of decision.
Maybe because it is hypothetical it is easier to say I’d sacrifice a kid. But it scares me that so many people think that way, I’d hope if they had to do it in real life their humanity would stop then.
Watching the reactions and reading the comments sort of prove how we are absolutely monsters when it comes to love. We would do anything even doom humanity for love. And viewers cheer on the killing. The answer is there are no right answers.
This season ends pretty much identically to how the first game ends. I have a feeling that there will be three seasons and the second game will be split up because it's an incredibly long and complex story in the second game that couldn't possibly be told in just 9 episodes.
I'm pretty sure it's now been confirmed that the second game will be at least 2 seasons.
She was down and quiet because she was still traumatized by her almost rape and imprisonment and having to murder someone from the last episode. No matter how time had passed.
She got the reality of what she always wanted by being more like Joel and it is now only hitting her what that is.
They are doing the second last of us game in two seasons
As someone who still to this day wholeheartedly would be Joel in that hospital doing all I can to save Ellie knowing full well I am damning the human race, I cannot help but believe Marlene was in the right not to tell/ask Ellie if she was willing to sacrifice herself.
Overall MOST humans are an US before THEM thinker its just a phycological fact as its easier to recognize the US needs and feel more grounded in them. Joel thinks of his US as him and Ellie and probably Tommy and their needs outweigh THEM the rest of the world. Frankly after playing the game many times and watching the show I still side with Joels decision because I have grown too attached.
The flip side of this is Marlene is actually able to distance herself from the US and think of the THEM when she decides not to tell Ellie and honestly she is right. If I were to find myself in her shoes with no attachment to the person who holds the cure ( sure she was there when Ellie was born and she's her friends daughter but Ellie is NOT part of Marlenes US) I would have made a very similar choice. You can't risk Ellie saying "no" in the classic trolley problem you have to sacrifice one to save EVERYONE in this case. Marlenes only mistake is not appropriately dealing with Joel so that he has no way to impact it.
"I can't wait for the next season"...
The ending is morally conflicting. We would all protect our loved ones, no matter what… it blinds you, clouds your judgements. On the outside looking in, we can see both sides of the coin. What if it worked? Humanity can be saved. But what if it doesn’t? The hell Ellie has gone through in her short life, especially in the time trying to get from Boston to Jackson to Salt Lake City, it would’ve been for nothing.
Joel made the decision in a split second that Ellie deserved to live on, and he was going to make that happen no matter what. He didn’t hesitate… the surgeon stepping forward with the scalpel? Joel wasn’t even going to let him try and reason with him… Marlene? “You’ll just come after her”. No hesitation, no remorse.
Now he has to live with that. Not just his actions saving Ellie, and in effect damning the world to continue scraping through the apocalypse, but also the lies he told to Ellie.
Season 2… those of us that have played The Last Of Us: Part 2 know what a ride that is going to be. There is a suggestion that the events of Part 2 may not be covered in a single season, but possibly two. It will be very interesting to see how they adapt the story from this point forward.
I can see why they took out a lot of amazing scenes/moments. Gameplay is its own animal when it comes to story telling, and you're able to pace things completely differently. But I'm glad the show didn't just add everything in, since it would of felt like filler and broke the pacing.
Episode 3 and 7 i think it was, or 6, was absolute not needed sjw filler propoganda.
@@WheresWaldo05 Episode 7 was literally identical to the DLC of the first game, almost scene for scene, nothing wrong with some backstory on how she was first bitten. Episode 3 was some beautiful butt stuff, I know it triggers you to see it, but that said it truly was something special. You're not a snowflake at all.
Joel is right under the circumstances. However he definitely need to come clean to Ellie about what happened and why. If people are so convinced Ellie would be willing to sacrifice herself. Whey didn't Marlene give her a choice? Ellie deserved the dignity of a choice. If she had(Maybe) Ellie would have been willing to sacrifice herself dispite the chance of failure. Failure would mean Ellie died for nothing.
Unfortunately Marlene/fireflies chose to lie and were about to murder an unconscious child. Real heroes don't do that.
So before anyone vilifies Joel think about this: Do you think the Dr that was about to murder Ellie would allow his own child to be sacrifice?
Highly unlikely especially if he was expected to do the surgery.
Ellie's life isn't worth less than the Dr's child. So I say agian Joel did the right thing. The show would also be over if Ellie had died.
The only hero in the Part one is Ellie
@@NPA1001 I agree Ellie is the hero but still deserved a choice.
@@NPA1001 (Spoiler warning)
I didn't play the game but unfortunately saw spoilers about the game sequel. So I believe the Dr that was about to kill Ellie has a daughter named Abby. I highly doubt the Dr (Abbys father) would let Abby be sacrificed if she immune. Even to save humanity so that would make him a hypocrite.
@@smavtmb2196 oh I agree. Neither the fireflies or Joel are the hero’s of this story, the only hero of part one is Ellie (I stress … of Part 1)
@@NPA1001 Ellie loves Joel and in her eyes he is a father figure and a hero. I don't want to say spoilers and ruin things for others. So all I'll say is I hope you're not calling a particular golf club murderer a hero.
Ellie didn't get a choice.
Heroes don't murder unconscious children. However that's exactly what some people think Joel should have let happen. What happened to the Dr's medical ethics (do no harm?)
I don't want to mention spoilers so all I'll say is. Does anyone think the Dr that was about to kill Ellie would be willing to sacrifice his own child to save humanity. I doubt it. Especially if he was expected to do the surgery. Making him a hypocrite.
Ellie's life isn't worth less than his child's life.
I'm not interested in a GOT style season 2
@@hliugemre
Just because you think Ellie would be willing, doesn't change the fact that she should have been given a choice. Once agian there was no guarantee of success.
Meaning she'd die for nothing.
The Dr (Abbys father) was going to kill Ellie. You can't honestly think he'd murder Abby to save humanity if she was in Ellie's place. Of course he wouldn't. So killing Ellie would make him a hypocrite.
Any parent with a soul would do exactly what Joel did if they could to save their child.
@@hliugemre Yes Ellie would be angry Joel lied, but not angry he saved her life because she wasn't given a choice by Marlene. You can't tell me Ellie wouldn't be angry with the fireflies for lying and trying to murder her without a choice.
Clearly you know who the Doctor was (Abbys father) but refuse to understand his hypocracy. You know full well had Abby been in Ellie's position the Dr would have done exactly what Joel did if he could.
Only an emotionally detached sociopath wouldn't try to save their child.
@@hliugemre We don't know that.
@@hliugemre There was no point in burdening her with what happened, at that point.
@@hliugemre
You sound so angry Joel saved everyone's favorite character.
You seem to not realize had Joel not saved Ellie there never would have been a game sequel or tv show.
Ellie is a 14 year old child and no parent with any love for their child would let them be killed. I guess you would. Maybe Ellie says that insane BS you claim in the game sequel, but no rational person would be angry at someone for preventing their murder. You clearly don't understand that most viewers love Joel and Ellie, want them to both survive, and haven't played the game.
The reality is that at (no) point in the (show) so far has Ellie told Joel she is ok with the fireflies killing her in vaccine/cure making process.
In fact in this last episode Ellie did say she wanted to finish it and implies she is willing to (risk) her life to find the fireflies. At this point Ellie and Joel clearly believe the fireflies only need her blood to make the vaccine. She also told Joel she would follow him anywhere and that she'd go with him anywhere he wants after they help the fireflies.
That clearly means Ellie was expecting to be alive to leave with Joel. So based on that obvious information it makes zero sense for anyone including Ellie to expect Joel to not save her.
So if Ellie really wants to sacrifice herself fine. She can finally tell Joel that, because that's not what she told him in season 1
So vilifying Joel makes no sense.
Ellie was literally talking about the future with Joel and you vilify him for saving her. That's insane. Only a heartless sociopath wouldn't understand why he did it.
If anyone is to be blamed now or later in season2 is Marlene & not Joel. If that doesn't happen whatever showrunners present is a simply a stupidity. Here's why - Joel's actions are direct result of Marlene's decision to hurry up things. Firstly did he have that opportunity to give Ellie a choice? They are saying that Joel didn't give her a choice & took away the chance to save humanity. Which is logically & factually wrong. Joel gets to give Ellie a choice only in one scenario - If Marlene told Ellie about the killing surgery, Ellie said yes to die willingly & is allowed to meet Joel. Then & only then he can allow or deny Ellie's wish. So as a parent Joel is left with only one thing to do & he did that thing.
If Ellie says Yes & even then Joel kills everyone then & only then he is to be blamed.. Would Ellie say Yes to die? Maybe yes. But Marlene doesn't give that chance to Elli, therefore we don't actually know what Ellie might have said 'before' the surgery (Whatever she may say afterwards is her afterthought considering whatever happened). So before the surgery whatever Joel does is a direct consequence of Marlene's actions.. Never in the series Ellie was expecting to 'die'. She was hoping to get it done (maybe blood samples, tests etc.) & then go away to live with Joel happily. Why so much hurry from Marlene's part? They waited for 20 years, what's another couple of months?
If someone just tells me that my child is being 'murdered' without their knowledge, I can't even see them & I was supposed to walk away from the premises; then no matter what the greater purpose of that murder is.. I would do the exact thing as Joel did! If HBO ignores this simple fact in next season & decides to blame Joel instead of Marlene then they will have very angry reactions from the parents. Protecting the children from the 'predator' is a primal animal instinct.
The only thing I don't like on Joel's part is that he lied to her. IMO he should have been upfront about why he did it. Ellie might have disagreed with his actions but she definitely would have understood his motives (selfless/selfish love for his daughter) better. Was he afraid that killing of these many people will just feed her survivor's guilt? Or he is afraid that he will have to justify his actions? Or under her current PTSD influence will she see Joel as a bad person & end the relationship, or even worse take her own life?
TWO IN A DAY!!
You don't have to wait for Season 2. Just pick up a Playstation:). Also: one of the nurses at the end is played by Laura Bailey, who voices...a character in the second game.
A very important character. 😉
Is Joel the villain? It is certainly a valid point personally I think that the fireflies was willing to kill a teenager for a potential cure there were no guarantees and you could argue also could the fireflies really distribute a cure to a population spread across thousands of square miles? So in my humble opinion Joel did what he had to protect his daughter. He killed because they him left no other choice they would have killed him otherwise.
How about give Ellie the choice, that would be the correct thing to do.
@@VColossalV to a certain extent I would agree her choice should be considered for sure, but you can also make the case that a 14 year old might not have the mental capacity to really make that choice (understanding every aspect of it and calculate consequences), but I think it is a valid point to make for sure, but in the case of the show/game they dont give her the choice they make it for her, so under thise circumstances I understand why Joel did what he did. If Ellie made the choice is a hypothetical scenario that we can only guess on how that would turn out. I am trying to analyse within the choices that are made in the show, but I think your point is very valid.
@@Julini89 If she wants to sacrifice herself to save the world that is her choice to make, she knows the consequences, death. Joel lies to her because he knows she would do it. Nobody should make the choice for her.
@@VColossalV I agree completely. yes she would understand the consequences that she would die on that I agree, but I am not sure she would know how weigh those consequences against the fact the cure is not a gurantee it is a maybe, or if it actually works what are the changes that the fireflies can actually manage to spread it around the globe. those are variables that should be considered in such a choice and I have serious doubts if a teenager would be capable of that, and to me there is a moral gray area if we are letting a teenager make life and death decisions that they might not completely understand, but in the end yes it should be her call and no1 elses for sure.
So on the one hand, Joel saved his adopted daughter from certain death. On the other hand, he may have doomed the entire human race. Either way, though, he's making the same mistake as Marlene in that he's not letting Ellie make the choice for herself.
All trolley problems are false dichotomies.
Never feel like you have to answer one way or the other. There's always a 3rd option.
-Marlene never gave Ellie the chance to decide for herself.
-Ellie is a child. She deserves a life, and is too young to decide whether she should give up her own life, regardless of the "number it could save".
-The fact that it happened with Ellie means that it could have happened to someone else.
-They could have waited for Ellie to live, to decide as an adult whether or not to sacrifice herself. Heck, maybe if she ever had a kid, the umbilical cord could have even had something in it.
-They could have waited for a brain surgeon so that they could remove enough of it from her brain without killing her.
IMO Ellie clearly doesn't know the possible cure will cost her her life, she was never given an option to decide and she wanted to see Joel before the surgery that she had no idea would be her death, long story short I'm 100percent team Joel... IMO