Cracking job Andrew. Looks like fun. You have given me an idea. I am building a summer house which will have a shower and kitchen. I was going to install a small electric unvented but might use the insulated pipe you have for the 25 metres from my 300litre unvented.
Hi Andrew I've just been doing a house with numerous bathrooms. I had initially thought about PIRs to trigger the bronze pump on the Dhw loop, but had discounted it just from lack of confidence in the idea, after watching this video I thought what the hell ill give it a go and customer was game to trying it as well. So I've just finished wiring it all up today and putting the PIRs in. And works quite well, it's not mega instance but it does drastically reduce the wait time. Thanks for inspiring me to give it a go
The idea of the pirs is that it gives time for the circulation to occur before you open the tap. If the water isn't actually getting to the tap by the time you have finished having a pee you may need to use a stronger pump
How wonderful to work on a project that you can get your teeth into from the ground floor so to speak. It has more in common with a commercial install than residential. Impressed.👍😀
Yes somewhat over specified and oversized for sure. I keep telling the customer that if this was for a 20 room hotel I would be thinking the system was about the right size
Impressive. Thanks for sharing. We're a family of 5 and 250L DHW tank does us. We can run it out if everyone has a shower/bath in same evening, but honestly 1000L would be if we ran a hotel spa.. ha.. :)
It's been real privilege to do this job. It's not often that you do a job what you're trying to hold Back the customers desire to upgrade the job while you're doing it
I am not a plumber but many many years ago I used to layout printed circuit boards with red anc blue tape. The resulting large image was photographed, shrunk to pcb size and etched with acid to reveal copper tracks. Seeing all this copper work brought it all back. It seems a terrible shame to hide it all. A quick question. I have been thinking about the hot water runs in my normal house and ways to reduce the wasted water and energy content. I came across the Sunamp heat battery which looks like it would do a good job. It takes the place of a hot water cylinder and is about 1/3 of the size. It should release hot waterinstantly and csn be charged by either hot water or electricity. It looks like it would be a (gòod?) Solution for at least the handbasin issue. Any comments would be appreciated.
For the PIR system, could you introduce a timer into the loop so that in the middle of the night, the PIR wouldn't set the pump running when people are just likely to need a bit of cold water for hand washing?
The customer and all the tradesmen on this site have been absolutely wonderful. The level of support and interaction has been a totally new experience for me. The customer has been totally behind the project and the electrician has been an absolute dream to work with
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 odd, out of all the things fitted to my house I appreciate the MVHR system the most, I mean you're breathing all the time you're home. My time isn't so valuable I can't wait a minute for hot water.
Insulation wants to be kingspan kooltherm. 25mm wall thickness Im utilising time delay (if run then timer kicks in for 30min to hold pump off) and temp sensors close to outlets on my secondary return Dont let bathroom fitter use flexis. Stipulate all hard piped copper and end feed tap connectors. No pushfit whatsoever aswell due to secondary returns Nice job to get into looks well 👍
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 i think you need to be concerned about minimising heat loss in every way by insulating all hot pipework and limiting its emmitter effect by having it running as little time as possible . Thats a lot of hot pipework in a house with only 18kw heat loss. Pir outside the toilet so its activated before you go in (directed with tape towards the door) gives you most abouunt of time before you need to use hot tap. You might get a couple of false positives but would be fine
@@D_pawson that's a very good point about the amount of heat coming from these pipes relative to the house heat loss. The insulation was originally going to be done last week but the customer has delayed the insulation work. This actually worked out well for me in the end as I was a bit late finishing the job
The cylinder is fitted with two hot water temperature census. One boiler is set to 55 degrees and the other to 50 degrees. So when only a small demand is placed upon the hot water only one boiler will fire if the demand grows bigger and the temperature in the cylinder drops further both boilers will fire to reheat the water in the cylinder
@@andrewalderson1 yes the hot water flow and Returns form a ring circuit and each hot water supplies taken from the flow and the return is connected at the last outlet
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 a hell of a lot of copper going in that house and press fittings, fantastic project to be a part of. I hope you are well mate.
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 I haven’t been for a while, been busy putting a showroom together, still work in progress. Getting back to being a bit more active lately.
I appreciate it's fun doing a no expense spared job but that's extraordinarily excessive :) Andrew, how did the customer find out about you, social media or recommendation?
Yes I agree about it being excessive but that's what the customer wants and to be honest I'm really enjoying giving him what he wants. Almost all the work I do is from my TH-cam channel. I think for my customers it's an opportunity to see my enthusiasm and love for what I do
I'm a plumber, nearly 30 years old, been qualified for almost 10 year, I've spent my life doing kitchens,bathrooms and general repairs and maintenance but installs like that in the plant room makes me feel incompetent, wouldn't even know where to start
A very good friend of mine is a commercial heating engineer. The often says to me that commercial is just the same as domestic but bigger. Actually if you look at the design of this system and some of the smaller ones I do this is actually far more simple. But it's been a really good learning curve for me handling such big pipework and carrying out calculations for this size of Project. You really do have to stop a lot and calculate through how things are going to work when they're on such a big scale. So far I've found a few surprises along the way that have required design considerations I've not had to make before. I just hope I haven't missed anything in the process and that there's no design failures in this job
The 500 L is for the house rather than three people. The customer has requested all five showers to be operational simultaneously at 30 l per minute. That's approximately 2/3 hot water that's 100 l of hot water per minute so a 500 l cylinder will give them 5 minutes of of showering. The original design required 1000 L of water to provide 10 minutes of showering. The customer agreed to having only a single 500 L cylinder on the basis that they won't actually use all 5 bathrooms at the same time and if they find it problem it's already planned up just to slot in another 500 L cylinder
Maybe I didnt understand well what the 4 pumps do, but if they are used to reduce the time from when you open a tap to when you have hot water available at the tap, then why not control them via a flowmeter? When you open a tap then they turn on. Why use a PIR to control a pump? Also PIR tend to break. In 5 years a pir will be broken and those pumps they will not turn on anymore and the owner won't even know it. You can buy from Grundfos a similar pump to the one you selected there, only it has a flowmeter integrated so that when there is circulation, the pump comes on
This is a total bullshit job with oversized pipes and extraordinary heat loses in all the circuits, waste of electricity in redundant pumps. I made heating for building with 30 flats with 31 bathrooms, 1700 square metres and needed just 1000 liter indirect ACV HRs 1000 boiler heated by 48 kW gas condensing boiler capped to 28 kW and flow temperature from boiler set to 65˚C limit to allow condensing during heating hot water. Perfectly fine for my building, annual efficiency is 59 kWh of gas per 1m3 of hot water around 50˚C hot, including circulation loses. Not carrying about legionella due to 3 m3/day consumption which doesn't allow grow of it. 32 PPR was fine for hot water supply peaking at 1m3 of hot water during peak hour. Separate 48 kW gas boiler for heating through plate heat exchanger due to pressure difference caused by high static water pressure (26 metres building). Primary heating circuit flow rate 2 m3/hour, secondary 3.5m3/hour with possible peaking up to 5m3/hour. Using copper for hot water supply is nonsense. It has huge heat loses, PPR or PEX does much better job with regards to heat loses. Remember - I used PPR 32mm for 31 bathrooms and it is still oversized. Electricity supply for the 30 flats is 3 phase 80A/230V.
Cracking job Andrew. Looks like fun. You have given me an idea. I am building a summer house which will have a shower and kitchen. I was going to install a small electric unvented but might use the insulated pipe you have for the 25 metres from my 300litre unvented.
Hi Andrew I've just been doing a house with numerous bathrooms. I had initially thought about PIRs to trigger the bronze pump on the Dhw loop, but had discounted it just from lack of confidence in the idea, after watching this video I thought what the hell ill give it a go and customer was game to trying it as well. So I've just finished wiring it all up today and putting the PIRs in. And works quite well, it's not mega instance but it does drastically reduce the wait time. Thanks for inspiring me to give it a go
The idea of the pirs is that it gives time for the circulation to occur before you open the tap. If the water isn't actually getting to the tap by the time you have finished having a pee you may need to use a stronger pump
How wonderful to work on a project that you can get your teeth into from the ground floor so to speak. It has more in common with a commercial install than residential. Impressed.👍😀
I think you're going to win the position of my number one fan. Your positive comments and encouragement received so thank you very much
And that is about £5k worth of copper pipe & fittings Alone. Woooah that is a rather large and involved install. Good work and looking super slick.
Yes somewhat over specified and oversized for sure. I keep telling the customer that if this was for a 20 room hotel I would be thinking the system was about the right size
Nice work Andrew.
Thank you for your comment
Nice work Andrew!
Thank you! Cheers!
Lovely pipe work and installation well done mate 🙂👍🏼♥️
Thank you for your kind words
Beautiful, well designed, well executed work as always. An engineer I admire greatly.
Thank you for your kind words they really help to brighten up my day
stunning work, very similar to a job we did recently. wall raven gear is fantastic
Thank you sir
Awesome. Nice to see things done right for a change
Apart from my little mistake with the pumps I guess
Impressive. Thanks for sharing.
We're a family of 5 and 250L DHW tank does us. We can run it out if everyone has a shower/bath in same evening, but honestly 1000L would be if we ran a hotel spa.. ha.. :)
Also has 64kw HWP to recharge the cylinder fairly quickly if that were ever needed.
My house has a 210 l cylinder supplying 5 bathrooms and heated by a 32 kW boiler. We never run out of hot water
Nice one, really enjoyed watching your video, thanks for sharing :)
Thanks Igor
What a beast of a project! Looks awesome!
It's been real privilege to do this job. It's not often that you do a job what you're trying to hold Back the customers desire to upgrade the job while you're doing it
I am not a plumber but many many years ago I used to layout printed circuit boards with red anc blue tape. The resulting large image was photographed, shrunk to pcb size and etched with acid to reveal copper tracks. Seeing all this copper work brought it all back. It seems a terrible shame to hide it all.
A quick question. I have been thinking about the hot water runs in my normal house and ways to reduce the wasted water and energy content.
I came across the Sunamp heat battery which looks like it would do a good job. It takes the place of a hot water cylinder and is about 1/3 of the size. It should release hot waterinstantly and csn be charged by either hot water or electricity. It looks like it would be a (gòod?) Solution for at least the handbasin issue. Any comments would be appreciated.
Any cylinder provides hot water immediately and so this will not be a solution for the problem
For the PIR system, could you introduce a timer into the loop so that in the middle of the night, the PIR wouldn't set the pump running when people are just likely to need a bit of cold water for hand washing?
The beastmen boiler provides timing for the secondary circulation system
Ah ok. Seems like you have about as much control as is reasonable then.
Excellent work as always Andrew, must be nice to work without budget constraints, you're a long way from home though mate 👍
The customer and all the tradesmen on this site have been absolutely wonderful. The level of support and interaction has been a totally new experience for me. The customer has been totally behind the project and the electrician has been an absolute dream to work with
Excellent Andrew. Really enjoyed that. Thankyou. Are they having mvhr ?
No and I'm quite surprised about that but they say there was no room. Personally I don't understand why it couldn't have been fitted
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 odd, out of all the things fitted to my house I appreciate the MVHR system the most, I mean you're breathing all the time you're home. My time isn't so valuable I can't wait a minute for hot water.
@@edc1569 I have a secondary circulation system in my own house because waiting for water is a pain but I agree about the heat recovery system
Insulation wants to be kingspan kooltherm. 25mm wall thickness
Im utilising time delay (if run then timer kicks in for 30min to hold pump off) and temp sensors close to outlets on my secondary return
Dont let bathroom fitter use flexis. Stipulate all hard piped copper and end feed tap connectors. No pushfit whatsoever aswell due to secondary returns
Nice job to get into looks well 👍
I think on the rim sensor that's not a bad idea but for the toilet one I think we would need to stick with it as it is. What do you think
Are you recommending the insulation for everywhere or just for the secondary circulation system
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 i think you need to be concerned about minimising heat loss in every way by insulating all hot pipework and limiting its emmitter effect by having it running as little time as possible
. Thats a lot of hot pipework in a house with only 18kw heat loss.
Pir outside the toilet so its activated before you go in (directed with tape towards the door) gives you most abouunt of time before you need to use hot tap. You might get a couple of false positives but would be fine
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 all pipework. The stuff is cracking👌 works really well. Will post some photos on your forum of it
@@D_pawson that's a very good point about the amount of heat coming from these pipes relative to the house heat loss. The insulation was originally going to be done last week but the customer has delayed the insulation work. This actually worked out well for me in the end as I was a bit late finishing the job
How do you combine two boilers and still utilise priority hot water? Is just one boiler being use for the cylinder?
The cylinder is fitted with two hot water temperature census. One boiler is set to 55 degrees and the other to 50 degrees. So when only a small demand is placed upon the hot water only one boiler will fire if the demand grows bigger and the temperature in the cylinder drops further both boilers will fire to reheat the water in the cylinder
So the hot water flow / returns are teed together?
@@andrewalderson1 yes the hot water flow and Returns form a ring circuit and each hot water supplies taken from the flow and the return is connected at the last outlet
Yikes! Did you have to provide a fixed quote for this?
Day rate. I dont do estimates.
When doing day rate do you include the time you spend designing, specifying, and organising the job?
How many days has it took you so far?
I think I'm running around 4 weeks now
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 a hell of a lot of copper going in that house and press fittings, fantastic project to be a part of. I hope you are well mate.
Very well thank you. Are you not very active on the forums now?
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 I haven’t been for a while, been busy putting a showroom together, still work in progress. Getting back to being a bit more active lately.
@@smartboilercompany1983 but if you do come back please visit my forum where you are greatly missed
I appreciate it's fun doing a no expense spared job but that's extraordinarily excessive :) Andrew, how did the customer find out about you, social media or recommendation?
Yes I agree about it being excessive but that's what the customer wants and to be honest I'm really enjoying giving him what he wants. Almost all the work I do is from my TH-cam channel. I think for my customers it's an opportunity to see my enthusiasm and love for what I do
Impressive which my boss would get big jobs so board of domestic
Ask him
I'm a plumber, nearly 30 years old, been qualified for almost 10 year, I've spent my life doing kitchens,bathrooms and general repairs and maintenance but installs like that in the plant room makes me feel incompetent, wouldn't even know where to start
A very good friend of mine is a commercial heating engineer. The often says to me that commercial is just the same as domestic but bigger. Actually if you look at the design of this system and some of the smaller ones I do this is actually far more simple. But it's been a really good learning curve for me handling such big pipework and carrying out calculations for this size of Project. You really do have to stop a lot and calculate through how things are going to work when they're on such a big scale. So far I've found a few surprises along the way that have required design considerations I've not had to make before. I just hope I haven't missed anything in the process and that there's no design failures in this job
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 I thought you had a commercial ticket?
@@tonydaddario4706 no I never do commercial work. The commercial part of this gas system will be done by another engineer
@@andrewmillwardwatford9410 how is there a commercial part of the gas system if it's a domestic premises? thanks
Sorry, 500ltr for 3 people - what are they, mermaids?
The 500 L is for the house rather than three people. The customer has requested all five showers to be operational simultaneously at 30 l per minute. That's approximately 2/3 hot water that's 100 l of hot water per minute so a 500 l cylinder will give them 5 minutes of of showering. The original design required 1000 L of water to provide 10 minutes of showering. The customer agreed to having only a single 500 L cylinder on the basis that they won't actually use all 5 bathrooms at the same time and if they find it problem it's already planned up just to slot in another 500 L cylinder
Clients are also practising muslims with own prayer and washroom, which could mean five times a day.
30ltr a minute shower x 5? So they are mermaids then 🤣
What's the recovery time with 64Kw?
Maybe I didnt understand well what the 4 pumps do, but if they are used to reduce the time from when you open a tap to when you have hot water available at the tap, then why not control them via a flowmeter? When you open a tap then they turn on. Why use a PIR to control a pump? Also PIR tend to break. In 5 years a pir will be broken and those pumps they will not turn on anymore and the owner won't even know it. You can buy from Grundfos a similar pump to the one you selected there, only it has a flowmeter integrated so that when there is circulation, the pump comes on
This is a total bullshit job with oversized pipes and extraordinary heat loses in all the circuits, waste of electricity in redundant pumps. I made heating for building with 30 flats with 31 bathrooms, 1700 square metres and needed just 1000 liter indirect ACV HRs 1000 boiler heated by 48 kW gas condensing boiler capped to 28 kW and flow temperature from boiler set to 65˚C limit to allow condensing during heating hot water. Perfectly fine for my building, annual efficiency is 59 kWh of gas per 1m3 of hot water around 50˚C hot, including circulation loses. Not carrying about legionella due to 3 m3/day consumption which doesn't allow grow of it. 32 PPR was fine for hot water supply peaking at 1m3 of hot water during peak hour. Separate 48 kW gas boiler for heating through plate heat exchanger due to pressure difference caused by high static water pressure (26 metres building). Primary heating circuit flow rate 2 m3/hour, secondary 3.5m3/hour with possible peaking up to 5m3/hour. Using copper for hot water supply is nonsense. It has huge heat loses, PPR or PEX does much better job with regards to heat loses. Remember - I used PPR 32mm for 31 bathrooms and it is still oversized. Electricity supply for the 30 flats is 3 phase 80A/230V.
@@JiříFranek-s2j thank you for your comments. I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion