Also it’s now far easier to report crime,nowadays everyone has a phone & can instantly call police even if they see something suspicious now, far more likely to call police than they would have been 20/30 years ago.
Rationing ended 1954 and that was meat. Lower population numbers less men so many factors influenced that period that are not pertinent today. Yes there was a lot of black market stuff and much less to buy so maybe temptation was less.
My uncle never locked his doors and never got robbed. Every other house on his street had been burgled so the police suspected it was him… …until they paid him a visit 😂
I live in West Wales and don't lock the house or cars. As everybody where I live enjoys the same status - Working and relatively well off. I'd didn't leave the doors unlocked for the first 40 years of my life when I lived in Birmingham. When my eldest comes home from living in a big city he's always paranoid and locks everything up!
I was around in Southern England in the 1940s, ration book in hand when as a child (10) sent to do the shopping. I was not aware of shoplifting, apart from the usual sweet from Woolworths. What l DID personally experience was men trying to sexually assault me. There were many bombed sites in residential areas including the road on which we lived. My sister (a little older) experienced the same thing. I don’t recall telling my parents about this, but l did tell my brothers.
He’s talking out of his backside. Of course there was shoplifting, it just wasn’t done on the industrial scale it is now in order to feed drug addiction and so forth. There have always been folk nicking stuff to feed their kids, and there always will be. If I was in that position, trying to feed my kids on nothing, I’d try and steal food, knowing I had no other choice - and I’m the most law abiding citizen you can imagine, I’ve never even had a speeding fine. The other difference now is that benefit rates don’t provide the support they did in the fifties and sixties, so there is less actual money available for feeding a family. In the fifties he was eating stew and dumplings and enjoying pudding afterwards, because that was how people ate - and could afford to do so, rationing notwithstanding. Today it’s a revolting jar of pasta sauce with your cheap spirals, and if you’re lucky a bit of equally revolting garlic baguette to go with it to try and fill you up.
@@frugalitystartsathome4889 Very well said. I'm roughly his age. I grew up on a council estate in North Wales. Never once did we go hungry through rationing. In my very early days, and his, the shops were finally getting imported good back on the shelves. Oranges. Tropical Brazil-Nuts. Even Bananas started to appear. The whole world was back open for business. The man's a baby, even now. pardon my language. Anyway. All the best to you @frugalitystartsathome. Long may you continue.
OMG - we're back in the 19th century!! - Here comes the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor. Meanwhile Sunak DESTROYS the environment - gadding about in his chopper and private planes.
Rationing didn't end until 1953. Evidently there was some shoplifting, though the smaller shops and different layout would have made it more difficult. Overall crime was lower, and rates of crimes solved higher. GB's point about people feeling they were all in it together was a vital factor in people's feelings towards society and the need to accept less, in pursuit of a common cause.
I find it hard to believe that rates of crimes solved were higher in a era of no CCTV, DNA, very limited forensics and limited access to data bases of information
@@jimpaddy79 It seems unlikely. But there was less time spent taken form filling back then. Also, fewer crimes to start with and fewer varieties of crime. Terrorism was unknown, for instance. Much less fraud. No cyber criminals, either in 1953. Plus the uniformed police today spend much of their time basically filling in for social workers, helping people in distress, often with mental health issues. The less time you can spend catching criminals, the fewer criminals you will catch.
@@jimpaddy79yep this is the must egregious bullshit. What actually happened was a lot less people reported crime. Everyone knew, everyone had very little. To steal from your own people or class was almost always found and punished. This didn’t include city’s due to their nature. My parents were born in the late 20s ( 28 , 29 ) and grew up and lived in this era.
Has he not seen Norman Wisdom's first film from 1953, Trouble at Store, where Margaret Rutherford plays a famously light handed character. People at the time clearly recognised the trope, otherwise it would not have been featured as such a strong part of the storyline.
The worst of ideas. I see that they don't even report police killing numbers to central government. Shootings by cops of unarmed victims are often not even investigated. They get ~6 weeks training
What has also not be mentioned here is the example set by this government in regard to behaving ethically, morally and legally. This also sends a message to your public
The layout of shops was significantly different. The population was 74% the size of current (in 1950, 50 million vs 67 million now). My guess is it was a younger population with a median age of 34 in 1950 and 40 currently.
In the 50s, there were no supermarkets then and lots of small shops in neighbourhoods where everyone knew each other so it would not have been easy to shoplift then.
@@michaellabram5980 Yea, " could leave your doors unlocked " is an old favourite. It may have been true in some places, but that was only because nobody had much to pinch. I bet well off people never left their houses without locking up.
Emma cites a 2011 study which of course was before the Tory wrecking ball had done most of the damage to the economy and society. I moved to London in 1978, not many homeless seen before Thatcher had done much damage, but it was coming. By 1982 homeless young people were sleeping everywhere, in parks, underground tunnels and many other places. They went to London from provinces looking for work. Crime rates rose, but there were enough police and public services were still in place.
"....Emma cites a 2011 study which of course was before the Tory wrecking ball had done most of the damage to the economy and society....." Dear god......I now have an image of [insert Tory leader here] swinging on a wrecking ball - Miley Cyrus style. Yeah, thanks for that ;-) :)
@@WhoAmEye_WhoAreEwe but if he were on the prograde side and there was, say, a wall-only a PFI school wall so pretty shoogly- in the arc the wrecking ball was traveling, he might come to a small but-in the tory calculus, character building- ammount of harm.
Yes, i did my own correlative analysis of homicides and inequality a few years ago using the GINI index for the inequality measure at a national level for each country, it's a very strong predictor
I was just looking to see if anyone had mentioned the Gini coefficient 👊 If you have the haves and have-nots that close together, expect things to start going sideways...
Cuts to all vital services, during rationing there was huge black market where goods were sold. Ridiculous to say in the good old days nobody committed crime? As we’ve seen at those time they believed children were never sexually abused & rape didn’t exist!! This just means these cases were never reported. How big a crime is it for a hungry person to steal food???
In addition to lack of financial resources, poverty manifests itself in a lack of educational opportunities, lack of meaningful employment options, poor housing, lack of hope and the prejudice against persons living in poverty
Violence, like death, is a social leveller. There is a great book on the relationship between violence and inequality by Walter Scheidel called ‘The Great Leveller - Violence and the History of Inequality from the Stone Age to the Twenty-First Century’.
@1:50 The rationing in the UK caused by the Second World War continued on until finally concluding in 1954. Because the second world war didn't simply destroy product, it destroyed whole infrastructures and transport mechanisms . To example an equivilance of this today: It's going to be hard to export grain and sunflower oil from Ukraine if there are nearly no cargo ships to transport the goods worldwide.
The food was behind the counter in tthe 50s. You told a shop worker what you wanted and you gave them the money and they gave you the goods. There wasn't valuable stuff lying about the shop, ready to be stolen.
13 years ago, I used to like listening to Porky Parry back when I was a housekeeper at Premier Inn. He used to be funny when talking about foitball. Now he's just degenerated into a boomer NPC.
About twenty years ago there was an emailed out part comedy newsletter called "The Daily Dirt". In it, the editor noted that one of the reasons the 'military intervention' in places like Afghanistan was so likely to cause severe hatred and backlash is because even if all you did was accidentally kill some goats- but those goats was all that village had- then it was pretty inevitable the villagers would want revenge. In other words, he said the same basic thing as that study. And he's not exactly the first person to say this. The fewer things someone has, the more easily it is to antagonise someone when you challenge or take that from them. Movie villains have literally stated as much!
An evidence based take on a situation - I like it. All too often, political and social issues are argued from opinion or tribalistic stand points. My views tend to be left wing but I don't buy into the whole package as some of what is offered is not evidence based. I'm encouraged to see this style of journalism.
Parents are fundamentally held responsible for raising their own off spring, Irrespective of any governing intervention or law, you have a governing constitution and a responsibility to constitute a responsible adult, able to conduct themselves with the necessary facilities that life has for the most part bestowed on that unique overture, you call the brain. wether you like it or not. Unless proved otherwise, that child is your governing presence in the world.
Rationing in the UK ended in 1954. I was born in the late 40's and of course there was a black market for goods you couldn't even buy. My old man kept chickens - we survived well as eggs were rationed - he even got his car fixed by swapping the repair for a couple of hens. Watch Buds In May and see how things were - a rosy view true but that's how it was.
Shoplifting is out of control and there's no repurcussions for it and the thieves know this and the shopkeeper will get prosecuted if he tries to physically stop it. Atleast back in the day there was a bit of community policing but it's very rare to see a Bobby on the beat, in my village anyway. Very sad state of affairs.
@@adriftinaboat3452 I've heard the argument that it's not that bad to steal from a supermarket. I used to say it myself when I caught a shoplifter. If you wanna steal, go to Asda and do it, they can afford it. The reality is that most shoplifters pilfer when and where they can and think they get away with it. Not cool to normalise that behaviour. It's just wrong mate. Unless they are desperate and honestly most people don't do it cos they are starving. Never had anyone shoplift a pint of milk or a tin of beans. In my experience anyway.
Does he realise that rationing was effectively free guaranteed food for all people. Talk about state handouts (which he likely despises now). I'm sure if we had rationing now, there'd be less shoplifting as people are effectively guaranteed the basics
Crime in my experience is not falling. The infrastructure to report crime outside of London is very poor. I was verbally abused online by an irate customer based in London; I reported the matter and a police officer paid the person a visit. I had my car damaged on my street in Devon; we spoke to the individual and reported this in March; still waiting for a response.
I worked in federal prisons, it was studied and revealed what caused criminality. 1. Parent was a single mother 2. Alcohol over any other drugs. 3. Lack of opportunity in society
It is Mike Parry inadvertently gives another very important point. “Nobody was going into Coop stores and stealing” the coops were genuine Cooperatives in the 1940s. Profits were distributed not to shareholders but to the members (pretty much all shoppers) in “the divvie” people knew that stealing from a Coop was stealing from themselves and their neighbours. Bring back true cooperatives!
Economic inequality certainly is the largest driver of crime and it's incredibly important that's halted. Law and order style solutions are still very much needed at least until you've sorted out your society. It's about doing both and that combination is missing in most discourse.
Post war, we had a broadly socialist Labour government. We also hadn't endured 40 years of St. Margaret's economic doctrine at that point in history, but we certainly have by now.
"The Second World War was a golden period for British crime. Between 1939 and 1945, reported crimes in England and Wales rose from 303,711 to 478,394, an increase of 57 per cent." "On one day in November 1940, 20 of the 56 cases listed for hearing at the Old Bailey concerned looting offences." Rationing actually *led* to thefts and forgery - " In 1944, 14,000 newly issued ration books were stolen in a raid. They were sold for an estimated profit of £70,000, roughly equivalent to £3m today ... The going rate for a sheet of forged coupons on Oxford Street was £10 - around £400 in today’s money." Can we please dump this myth that our Blitz grandparents were paragons of virtue, and 'this crime never happened when I were a lad'?
There's nothing wrong with having more police officers. So long as they're selected better and don't spend their time in make-work instead of actually tackling victim and violent crimes. But we don't have that. We select dodgy individuals and then they spend their time chasing victimless crimes and things like going after environmental campaigners and trade unionists and BAME people.
Zach de la Rocha from Rage Against the Machine already explained this very same idea very well in their song Settle for Nothing: "A jail cell is freedom from the pain in my home Hatred passed on, passed on and passed on A world of violent rage but it's one that I can recognize Having never seen the color of my father's eyes Yes, I dwell in hell but it's a hell that I can grip I tried to grip my family but I slipped To escape from the pain in an existence mundane I got a nine, a sign, a set, and now I got a name!
My Nan told me there was always things to buy off the black market that was stolen from government warehouses in the east end of London it was part of life
The black-market was huge during rationing, in fact some people made a very lucrative living which launched their careers as professional criminals in the late '50's and '60's. One notorious criminal 'Frankie Frazer' from that era said he was annoyed when the war and later rationing finished!
Crime isn't falling. That's an illusion people weren't walking into shops and stealing baskets of booze and food years ago they were taking the odd thing. A colleague of mine lost his van and had to find the van himself and buy back the tools from thieves. The police were not interested in the least, and it's the same as shop lifting they're not interested .
Yeah police reduce violent crime. But i'd wager they increase violence, just the violence they do is not considered crime. But what is and isnt crime is a political decision not a naturally occuring system.
Back in the 40s and 50s expectations were lower. Most adverts were for different brands of basic items. the marketers have now told us we are nothing unless we have the latest and best of everything.
Donnahue Levitt 2005 pointed to the interesting trend that Roe V Wade had on lowering crime levels. It would be fascinating to see a conservative response (especially American) to an argument that abortion effectively reduces crime numbers.
10:35 It looks from this graph that in the early 2000s reported crime was slightly less than half of the estimated total crime, but in the latest year of data, it suggests that basically *all* crime gets reported, which I find hard to believe.
In Canada, you get caught, you go to jail for two hours, get processed, and are back on the street doing business that same day. Two of my friends are big city cops and they have arrested the same guy three times in one day.
I think there is something in that theory. I once worked in a youth club (in the 1970s) in a deprived area. I was told that quite a few of the kids attending the club had a parent in prison and some of the kids themselves had been detained in institutions. Some had experienced violence at home growing up. It was noticeable that their egos were fragile in many cases, and if some other kid insulted a member of their family, they were often quick to retaliate by violence or threat. They didn't just shrug it off or ignore it like kids from a secure background usually would. One of the kids was actually diagnosed as a psychopath and had once set a fire under the pool table and another had knifed someone in a cold rage. I wasn't told any of this to begin with. I found it out along the way.
In Italy it's not a crime to steal food because eating to live is a human right. Addressing the cause of crimes prevents people committing crimes in the first place.
I have never even considered voting tory, but I imagine for some, Crime and Punishment may have been an appeal, but their record has been atrocious. I disagree on one thing, if you run a shop, you are powerless when it comes to dealing with shoplifters, it should not be the case, and trust me, it's not just people pinching to survive, far from it.
Shoplifters back in the old days would have got a seriously hard boot up the arse if not worse from the shopkeeper or even customers, that’s probably why it didn’t happen as often 😂
inequality raises deep resentment inside of people. As they can feel they are being exploited, even if they don't know how. and this resentment explodes at the slightest trigger, especially when what little they have is threatened, such as their respect, their women, their ego.
Crime and punishment is always a good way to distract the public from the serious issues political parties don’t want to talk about. Much easier to play the tough guys than to do anything useful for the climate, the NHS, the demographic tidal wave, globalisation, over population, …
Sugar rationing ended in 1953, meat rationing in 1954. Shoplifting was harder as there were no supermarkets and more staff! Crime still existed, with a lot of stuff “falling from the back of lorries!”
What I'm missing in the discussion is how people's perception of what defines crime has shifted. We see increasingly violent series on TV/the internet; such an significant increase of minor offenses on a daily basis that it gets filtered out of memory and just such rampant corruption in politics that it's considered 'the norm'. Our current norm might very well define as a criminal society based on the definition of a few decades back...
You're other siding things, America has a completely different way of recording crime. I'm friends with a few lawyers whom too late in the game, have to tell the defendants to shut up. Do not equate our numbers for the USA, its a nonsense comparative.
Rationing continued until 1952 at least. Things were that bad. Rich people just bought black market stuff. Frankie Fraser said the war was a criminal paradise because of the blackout. Crime was rampant but news was suppressed often in wartime
One thing I'd say about police numbers and crime rates is I don't really think that you can necessarily go from "more police in a high risk period" and "more police in general reduce crime."
In the 40's and 50's stuff was normally behind the counter so it would not be surprising if shop lifting offences were much lower. Self service was almost unheard of.
Reporting crime to the police is actually much easier nowadays. You can report a crime using an online form. I've done one just recently. Historically I probably wouldn't have bothered because I'd have had to go down to the police station or have a long phone call.
It's deffo more accessible but you still have to be interviewed face to face to get a statement. In the case of shoplifting you can make a statement, identify the culprit, provide video evidence, which I've done many times and not once has the thief ever got more than a caution or gone to court. Never even got the goods back. There's something wrong with that system.
Isn't the WW2 'spiv' pretty much a known British archetype these days? As Michael says, it's unlikely they ethically and legally sourced everything they peddled.
Rationing.. There was a 90% highest tax rate on the rich in the 50’s and 60’s post war.. and people had just been the worst war in the history of the world.. people understood that times were going to be hard.
Hold on, you admit that larger numbers of police reduces violent crimes but you don’t think we should increase police numbers, I’ve never heard anything so contradictory in my life!!!! I try extremely hard to listen to both sides of arguments but when you come out with contradictory tosh like this, nope!!
Rationing ended mid 50s. 1955 or 56 I believe.
Why do old people insist crime only started in recent times? Is it so they can blame immigration?
Yes
Also it’s now far easier to report crime,nowadays everyone has a phone & can instantly call police even if they see something suspicious now, far more likely to call police than they would have been 20/30 years ago.
Rationing ended 1954 and that was meat. Lower population numbers less men so many factors influenced that period that are not pertinent today. Yes there was a lot of black market stuff and much less to buy so maybe temptation was less.
But we are not allowed to do that are we?
@@dawnwilliams6061 you can, by all means. Doesn't make you right. Makes you a racist.
There was no shoplifting during rationing? Has this guy ever heard of this thing called the black market?
He suffers from The Good Old Days syndrome.
Like, when colds & flu went on holiday over covid? 👍😁
Shop lifting was near impossible as goods were behind the counter.
Black outs and bombed buildings were a god send to criminals.
@@daltonadams4672I'm about the same age as him and you are right.
This guy is a coddler of shoplifters/rogues and discounts criminal behavior.
This media company probably is allied with the PRC. Just sayin'
My late Mum always said everyone left their doors open in the 20’s and 30’s because they had nothing to steal…😂😂
reminds me of a Jasper Carrott quip, "what you gonna nick? A mangle??"" 😂
My uncle never locked his doors and never got robbed. Every other house on his street had been burgled so the police suspected it was him… …until they paid him a visit 😂
We kept our doors unlocked in the 60's and early 70's.
I live in West Wales and don't lock the house or cars. As everybody where I live enjoys the same status - Working and relatively well off. I'd didn't leave the doors unlocked for the first 40 years of my life when I lived in Birmingham. When my eldest comes home from living in a big city he's always paranoid and locks everything up!
Love how this guy knows exactly what was happening in the local criminal scene when he was a literal baby
He looks rather like a baby still. Just remove the beard.
I was around in Southern England in the 1940s, ration book in hand when as a child (10) sent to do the shopping. I was not aware of shoplifting, apart from the usual sweet from Woolworths. What l DID personally experience was men trying to sexually assault me. There were many bombed sites in residential areas including the road on which we lived. My sister (a little older) experienced the same thing. I don’t recall telling my parents about this, but l did tell my brothers.
He’s talking out of his backside. Of course there was shoplifting, it just wasn’t done on the industrial scale it is now in order to feed drug addiction and so forth. There have always been folk nicking stuff to feed their kids, and there always will be. If I was in that position, trying to feed my kids on nothing, I’d try and steal food, knowing I had no other choice - and I’m the most law abiding citizen you can imagine, I’ve never even had a speeding fine. The other difference now is that benefit rates don’t provide the support they did in the fifties and sixties, so there is less actual money available for feeding a family. In the fifties he was eating stew and dumplings and enjoying pudding afterwards, because that was how people ate - and could afford to do so, rationing notwithstanding. Today it’s a revolting jar of pasta sauce with your cheap spirals, and if you’re lucky a bit of equally revolting garlic baguette to go with it to try and fill you up.
now he's an adult baby - modern conservative
@@frugalitystartsathome4889 Very well said. I'm roughly his age. I grew up on a council estate in North Wales. Never once did we go hungry through rationing.
In my very early days, and his, the shops were finally getting imported good back on the shelves.
Oranges. Tropical Brazil-Nuts. Even Bananas started to appear. The whole world was back open for business.
The man's a baby, even now. pardon my language.
Anyway. All the best to you @frugalitystartsathome. Long may you continue.
OMG - we're back in the 19th century!! - Here comes the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor. Meanwhile Sunak DESTROYS the environment - gadding about in his chopper and private planes.
Rationing didn't end until 1953. Evidently there was some shoplifting, though the smaller shops and different layout would have made it more difficult. Overall crime was lower, and rates of crimes solved higher. GB's point about people feeling they were all in it together was a vital factor in people's feelings towards society and the need to accept less, in pursuit of a common cause.
I find it hard to believe that rates of crimes solved were higher in a era of no CCTV, DNA, very limited forensics and limited access to data bases of information
Also young guys were off the street for 2 years doing National Service
@@julianshepherd2038But there were also more of them, as a proportion of the population.
@@jimpaddy79 It seems unlikely. But there was less time spent taken form filling back then. Also, fewer crimes to start with and fewer varieties of crime. Terrorism was unknown, for instance. Much less fraud. No cyber criminals, either in 1953. Plus the uniformed police today spend much of their time basically filling in for social workers, helping people in distress, often with mental health issues. The less time you can spend catching criminals, the fewer criminals you will catch.
@@jimpaddy79yep this is the must egregious bullshit. What actually happened was a lot less people reported crime. Everyone knew, everyone had very little. To steal from your own people or class was almost always found and punished. This didn’t include city’s due to their nature. My parents were born in the late 20s ( 28 , 29 ) and grew up and lived in this era.
Every time I see Grace Blakely she's outnumbered 2-3 to 1 getting shouted down.
That's often the case when a person has the audacity to talk sense.
These talk shows always skew to the right, it's a stitch up
Grace IS and ALWAYS has been a class act. So glad to see her back at it, she’s been missing far too long already…
I would not go that far
@@danielsutcliffe7876 THats your choice, enjoy it.
Has he not seen Norman Wisdom's first film from 1953, Trouble at Store, where Margaret Rutherford plays a famously light handed character. People at the time clearly recognised the trope, otherwise it would not have been featured as such a strong part of the storyline.
Maybe following the US on law and order isn't such a good idea.
The worst of ideas. I see that they don't even report police killing numbers to central government. Shootings by cops of unarmed victims are often not even investigated. They get ~6 weeks training
GB is excellent, usually on the ball.
What has also not be mentioned here is the example set by this government in regard to behaving ethically, morally and legally. This also sends a message to your public
Absolutely masterful counter of a right-wing tangential, Blakeley is fantastic in any media performance I've seen her on.
There was very little on most shop shelves available to steal during rationing compared to now and populations were significantly smaller.
The layout of shops was significantly different.
The population was 74% the size of current (in 1950, 50 million vs 67 million now).
My guess is it was a younger population with a median age of 34 in 1950 and 40 currently.
In the 50s, there were no supermarkets then and lots of small shops in neighbourhoods where everyone knew each other so it would not have been easy to shoplift then.
Everyone knows that there was no crime in the 1940s and 1950s.😂😂😂
Boomers can’t see past that beautiful golden era
I WORE AN ONION ON MY BELT
Leave you front door open…have a lovely sing along…Marvelous….
Don’t generalise-a lot of boomers aren’t rich and like myself are life long socialist.
@@michaellabram5980 Yea, " could leave your doors unlocked " is an old favourite.
It may have been true in some places, but that was only because nobody had much to pinch. I bet well off people never left their houses without locking up.
Shops were set out a lot differently in the 1950’s. For a start, customers didn’t have direct access to stock, which was all kept behind the counter!
Emma cites a 2011 study which of course was before the Tory wrecking ball had done most of the damage to the economy and society. I moved to London in 1978, not many homeless seen before Thatcher had done much damage, but it was coming. By 1982 homeless young people were sleeping everywhere, in parks, underground tunnels and many other places. They went to London from provinces looking for work. Crime rates rose, but there were enough police and public services were still in place.
"....Emma cites a 2011 study which of course was before the Tory wrecking ball had done most of the damage to the economy and society....."
Dear god......I now have an image of [insert Tory leader here] swinging on a wrecking ball - Miley Cyrus style. Yeah, thanks for that ;-)
:)
@@WhoAmEye_WhoAreEwe but if he were on the prograde side and there was, say, a wall-only a PFI school wall so pretty shoogly- in the arc the wrecking ball was traveling, he might come to a small but-in the tory calculus, character building- ammount of harm.
Yes, i did my own correlative analysis of homicides and inequality a few years ago using the GINI index for the inequality measure at a national level for each country, it's a very strong predictor
I was just looking to see if anyone had mentioned the Gini coefficient 👊
If you have the haves and have-nots that close together, expect things to start going sideways...
It was a very smart and correct response.
' we are in it together ' is not how life is anymore
Cuts to all vital services, during rationing there was huge black market where goods were sold.
Ridiculous to say in the good old days nobody committed crime? As we’ve seen at those time they believed children were never sexually abused & rape didn’t exist!!
This just means these cases were never reported.
How big a crime is it for a hungry person to steal food???
flash harry would steal for you..... character in minder TV show....
Not seen Grace in a while, this is a pleasant surprise.🔥✊
In addition to lack of financial resources, poverty manifests itself in a lack of educational
opportunities, lack of meaningful employment options, poor housing, lack of hope and the
prejudice against persons living in poverty
Grace, as ever, is brilliant
My dissertation was largely on disparities in wealth and development and the impact on civil conflict.
Parry is a true Tory, and he won’t be dissuaded . He even answers like a Tory, it’s called gaslighting!
Private prisons demand crime for their shareholders..KEEEERCHING !!
Violence, like death, is a social leveller. There is a great book on the relationship between violence and inequality by Walter Scheidel called ‘The Great Leveller - Violence and the History of Inequality from the Stone Age to the Twenty-First Century’.
Good to see Grace on the TV screen. Been a while. She’s boss number two after Ash Sarkar
Post war the shops still had high number of shop assistants and everything was behind the counter so hard to shoplift.
Rationing was not removed until the mid-fifties. Cheese, soap, sweets, meat, eggs etc
Interesting note. Mike was born in December 1954.
He’s never lived under rationing.
I was born in 52 and it was much harder than it is now ..believe me, There has always been violent crime but today it's out of control.
@1:50 The rationing in the UK caused by the Second World War continued on until finally concluding in 1954. Because the second world war didn't simply destroy product, it destroyed whole infrastructures and transport mechanisms .
To example an equivilance of this today: It's going to be hard to export grain and sunflower oil from Ukraine if there are nearly no cargo ships to transport the goods worldwide.
There was no shoplifting because everything was on shelves behind the counter
And there was rationing so there was not so much to steal. But I assume they didn't need police or prisons in those halcyon days.
Mostly true.
The food was behind the counter in tthe 50s.
You told a shop worker what you wanted and you gave them the money and they gave you the goods.
There wasn't valuable stuff lying about the shop, ready to be stolen.
13 years ago, I used to like listening to Porky Parry back when I was a housekeeper at Premier Inn. He used to be funny when talking about foitball. Now he's just degenerated into a boomer NPC.
To what extent were his reactionary politics known about then?
@@unusedsub3003 I see.
4 July 1954: Meat and all other food rationing ended in Britain.
29 December 1954: Mike parry was born.
Doubt he was referring to coal rationing.
It doesn't sound as good to say that when food rationing existed I was a fetus.
About twenty years ago there was an emailed out part comedy newsletter called "The Daily Dirt".
In it, the editor noted that one of the reasons the 'military intervention' in places like Afghanistan was so likely to cause severe hatred and backlash is because even if all you did was accidentally kill some goats- but those goats was all that village had- then it was pretty inevitable the villagers would want revenge.
In other words, he said the same basic thing as that study.
And he's not exactly the first person to say this.
The fewer things someone has, the more easily it is to antagonise someone when you challenge or take that from them. Movie villains have literally stated as much!
Standard Baby Boomer argument, they can no longer pretend they fought in the war, so now they argue how tough they had it being adjacent to the war.
Novara
You zre excelling yourselves with your discussion contributors Emma Dabiri is fabulous. More of her
An evidence based take on a situation - I like it. All too often, political and social issues are argued from opinion or tribalistic stand points. My views tend to be left wing but I don't buy into the whole package as some of what is offered is not evidence based. I'm encouraged to see this style of journalism.
Parents are fundamentally held responsible for raising their own off spring,
Irrespective of any governing intervention or law, you have a governing constitution and a responsibility to constitute a responsible adult, able to conduct themselves with the necessary facilities that life has for the most part bestowed on that unique overture, you call the brain. wether you like it or not.
Unless proved otherwise, that child is your governing presence in the world.
Thank you Grace
Rationing in the UK ended in 1954. I was born in the late 40's and of course there was a black market for goods you couldn't even buy. My old man kept chickens - we survived well as eggs were rationed - he even got his car fixed by swapping the repair for a couple of hens. Watch Buds In May and see how things were - a rosy view true but that's how it was.
Shoplifting is out of control and there's no repurcussions for it and the thieves know this and the shopkeeper will get prosecuted if he tries to physically stop it. Atleast back in the day there was a bit of community policing but it's very rare to see a Bobby on the beat, in my village anyway. Very sad state of affairs.
Please adopt a millionaire retail shareholder-they’re having a particularly awful time at the moment…..
@@adriftinaboat3452 I've heard the argument that it's not that bad to steal from a supermarket. I used to say it myself when I caught a shoplifter. If you wanna steal, go to Asda and do it, they can afford it. The reality is that most shoplifters pilfer when and where they can and think they get away with it. Not cool to normalise that behaviour. It's just wrong mate. Unless they are desperate and honestly most people don't do it cos they are starving. Never had anyone shoplift a pint of milk or a tin of beans. In my experience anyway.
Shopkeeper = "he". Dead giveaway.
@@davidspencer7254 that's cryptic 🤔. Giveaway to what? That I am speaking from direct experience of the topic?
@@VasManHorrorLivesMatter to your social attitudes.
My neighbour shop lifted in the 1950 because he was hungry, he got 2 years in borstal.
Does he realise that rationing was effectively free guaranteed food for all people. Talk about state handouts (which he likely despises now).
I'm sure if we had rationing now, there'd be less shoplifting as people are effectively guaranteed the basics
Rationed food wasn't free. You still had to pay for the goods you were allotted.
@@mimimusick9734 But the price did not reflect the shortages in the normal supply and demand way.
My Nana used to steal potatoes with her friends she said, this surprised me when I heard so I can tell you it happened 😂😂
Crime in my experience is not falling. The infrastructure to report crime outside of London is very poor.
I was verbally abused online by an irate customer based in London; I reported the matter and a police officer paid the person a visit. I had my car damaged on my street in Devon; we spoke to the individual and reported this in March; still waiting for a response.
Parry reminds me of the concrete farmer, can we see more of him, he cracks me up
Also, the less police, the less likely they are to show up, the less people call the police. Therefore, criminals feel more empowered.
I've got him now, he's the man in the funniest ever cinnamon challenge video,
The very same
Nobody was going into Coop stores BECAUSE there was rationing, every family got the same rations based on their family.
Rationing wasn't just in the 40s, it didn't end till 1954
And the stats are with all the cctv, we are one of the most watched countrys in the World but still cant convict
I worked in federal prisons, it was studied and revealed what caused criminality.
1. Parent was a single mother
2. Alcohol over any other drugs.
3. Lack of opportunity in society
Can't beleive this guy still gets media gigs after that cinnamon challenge video.
Rationing went on until 1952.Keep up the good work.
It is Mike Parry inadvertently gives another very important point. “Nobody was going into Coop stores and stealing” the coops were genuine Cooperatives in the 1940s. Profits were distributed not to shareholders but to the members (pretty much all shoppers) in “the divvie” people knew that stealing from a Coop was stealing from themselves and their neighbours. Bring back true cooperatives!
Economic inequality certainly is the largest driver of crime and it's incredibly important that's halted. Law and order style solutions are still very much needed at least until you've sorted out your society. It's about doing both and that combination is missing in most discourse.
Post war, we had a broadly socialist Labour government. We also hadn't endured 40 years of St. Margaret's economic doctrine at that point in history, but we certainly have by now.
"The Second World War was a golden period for British crime. Between 1939 and 1945, reported crimes in England and Wales rose from 303,711 to 478,394, an increase of 57 per cent."
"On one day in November 1940, 20 of the 56 cases listed for hearing at the Old Bailey concerned looting offences."
Rationing actually *led* to thefts and forgery - " In 1944, 14,000 newly issued ration books were stolen in a raid. They were sold for an estimated profit of £70,000, roughly equivalent to £3m today ... The going rate for a sheet of forged coupons on Oxford Street was £10 - around £400 in today’s money."
Can we please dump this myth that our Blitz grandparents were paragons of virtue, and 'this crime never happened when I were a lad'?
There's nothing wrong with having more police officers.
So long as they're selected better and don't spend their time in make-work instead of actually tackling victim and violent crimes.
But we don't have that. We select dodgy individuals and then they spend their time chasing victimless crimes and things like going after environmental campaigners and trade unionists and BAME people.
Zach de la Rocha from Rage Against the Machine already explained this very same idea very well in their song Settle for Nothing:
"A jail cell is freedom from the pain in my home
Hatred passed on, passed on and passed on
A world of violent rage but it's one that I can recognize
Having never seen the color of my father's eyes
Yes, I dwell in hell but it's a hell that I can grip
I tried to grip my family but I slipped
To escape from the pain in an existence mundane
I got a nine, a sign, a set, and now I got a name!
My dad was a kid in the 50's and very poor too and he told me how he used to shoplift food all of the time!
My Nan told me there was always things to buy off the black market that was stolen from government warehouses in the east end of London it was part of life
What a pair to have on the debate, Jeremy Vine and the other blatant Tory from five sport
Grace is a top quality debater
The black-market was huge during rationing, in fact some people made a very lucrative living which launched their careers as professional criminals in the late '50's and '60's. One notorious criminal 'Frankie Frazer' from that era said he was annoyed when the war and later rationing finished!
I've worked in a public facing role for 35 Years, I also own a small business. There has been a societal change, covid lock-downs accelerated this.
Crime isn't falling. That's an illusion people weren't walking into shops and stealing baskets of booze and food years ago they were taking the odd thing. A colleague of mine lost his van and had to find the van himself and buy back the tools from thieves. The police were not interested in the least, and it's the same as shop lifting they're not interested .
Yeah police reduce violent crime. But i'd wager they increase violence, just the violence they do is not considered crime. But what is and isnt crime is a political decision not a naturally occuring system.
Back in the 40s and 50s expectations were lower. Most adverts were for different brands of basic items. the marketers have now told us we are nothing unless we have the latest and best of everything.
More employment and decent wages less crime
Let's have a government that leads by example.
When the government doesn't comply with its own policies .How on earth does society follow .
Donnahue Levitt 2005 pointed to the interesting trend that Roe V Wade had on lowering crime levels. It would be fascinating to see a conservative response (especially American) to an argument that abortion effectively reduces crime numbers.
10:35 It looks from this graph that in the early 2000s reported crime was slightly less than half of the estimated total crime, but in the latest year of data, it suggests that basically *all* crime gets reported, which I find hard to believe.
In Canada, you get caught, you go to jail for two hours, get processed, and are back on the street doing business that same day. Two of my friends are big city cops and they have arrested the same guy three times in one day.
I think there is something in that theory. I once worked in a youth club (in the 1970s) in a deprived area. I was told that quite a few of the kids attending the club had a parent in prison and some of the kids themselves had been detained in institutions. Some had experienced violence at home growing up. It was noticeable that their egos were fragile in many cases, and if some other kid insulted a member of their family, they were often quick to retaliate by violence or threat. They didn't just shrug it off or ignore it like kids from a secure background usually would. One of the kids was actually diagnosed as a psychopath and had once set a fire under the pool table and another had knifed someone in a cold rage. I wasn't told any of this to begin with. I found it out along the way.
White-collar crime dwarfs all other crime in economic cost.
In Italy it's not a crime to steal food because eating to live is a human right. Addressing the cause of crimes prevents people committing crimes in the first place.
I have never even considered voting tory, but I imagine for some, Crime and Punishment may have been an appeal, but their record has been atrocious. I disagree on one thing, if you run a shop, you are powerless when it comes to dealing with shoplifters, it should not be the case, and trust me, it's not just people pinching to survive, far from it.
Shoplifters back in the old days would have got a seriously hard boot up the arse if not worse from the shopkeeper or even customers, that’s probably why it didn’t happen as often 😂
In a '50's style shop it would be very difficult to shoplift, not impossible. but the high priced items were out of reach to customers.
inequality raises deep resentment inside of people. As they can feel they are being exploited, even if they don't know how.
and this resentment explodes at the slightest trigger, especially when what little they have is threatened, such as their respect, their women, their ego.
Crime and punishment is always a good way to distract the public from the serious issues political parties don’t want to talk about. Much easier to play the tough guys than to do anything useful for the climate, the NHS, the demographic tidal wave, globalisation, over population, …
Sugar rationing ended in 1953, meat rationing in 1954. Shoplifting was harder as there were no supermarkets and more staff! Crime still existed, with a lot of stuff “falling from the back of lorries!”
What I'm missing in the discussion is how people's perception of what defines crime has shifted. We see increasingly violent series on TV/the internet; such an significant increase of minor offenses on a daily basis that it gets filtered out of memory and just such rampant corruption in politics that it's considered 'the norm'.
Our current norm might very well define as a criminal society based on the definition of a few decades back...
Mike Parry , if braces were brains he’d need a belt !
You're other siding things, America has a completely different way of recording crime. I'm friends with a few lawyers whom too late in the game, have to tell the defendants to shut up. Do not equate our numbers for the USA, its a nonsense comparative.
Rationing continued until 1952 at least. Things were that bad. Rich people just bought black market stuff.
Frankie Fraser said the war was a criminal paradise because of the blackout. Crime was rampant but news was suppressed often in wartime
I remember when you could leave your front door open.
Like John Lennon said: ' Imagine no possessions.' (And no fixtures and fittings too)
One thing I'd say about police numbers and crime rates is I don't really think that you can necessarily go from "more police in a high risk period" and "more police in general reduce crime."
Simple solution to reduce crime: Make fewer things unlawful.
Very smart!
In the 40's and 50's stuff was normally behind the counter so it would not be surprising if shop lifting offences were much lower. Self service was almost unheard of.
Reporting crime to the police is actually much easier nowadays. You can report a crime using an online form. I've done one just recently. Historically I probably wouldn't have bothered because I'd have had to go down to the police station or have a long phone call.
It's deffo more accessible but you still have to be interviewed face to face to get a statement. In the case of shoplifting you can make a statement, identify the culprit, provide video evidence, which I've done many times and not once has the thief ever got more than a caution or gone to court. Never even got the goods back. There's something wrong with that system.
Isn't the WW2 'spiv' pretty much a known British archetype these days? As Michael says, it's unlikely they ethically and legally sourced everything they peddled.
Does crime include moneylaundering , buying drugs by banksters and other City malaises ???
I can't see the bloke lasting 5 mins without a snack lol
Rationing.. There was a 90% highest tax rate on the rich in the 50’s and 60’s post war.. and people had just been the worst war in the history of the world.. people understood that times were going to be hard.
Hold on, you admit that larger numbers of police reduces violent crimes but you don’t think we should increase police numbers, I’ve never heard anything so contradictory in my life!!!! I try extremely hard to listen to both sides of arguments but when you come out with contradictory tosh like this, nope!!