TH-cam automod being weird so heres some information i received from someone more knowledgable, quote minisbett: "1. Location-based miss penalty cannot possibly exist, it's impossible. And the way it is right now cannot result in overweightness due to the fact that misses are assumed to happen on the hardest part of the map. If anything, a score is underweight. 2. It would be a lot worse than you expect. And a lot more complicated. Should you get punished less on easy parts and more on hard parts? Or should you get punished more on easy parts because you're expected to hit it and if you don't you perform bad, and on hard parts less because you are expected to miss more? There's things like this which makes it pretty much impossible to use a location-based miss penalty if it would be possible. If you want to learn more, I suggest joining the PP Discord: discord.gg/aqPCnXu 3. If I understood your example with sliderbreaks correctly, you aren't quite right. It's a bit more complicated. 4. Regardless of stable being "spaghetti code", it is not fixable for the simple reason of backwards compatibility. If you want to discuss this stuff on a more casual level, you can join the PP Off-Topic Discord: discord.gg/kU9N7zce" thank you for watching regardless
This new pp update is a huge step in the right direction imo. I almost strictly play difficult maps (i beat yomi yori before getting a 300pp play lol) and before this, its been completely impossible to get ANY pp from them. But now, a lot of difficult maps like uta and raise my sword give actually good pp scores without an S rank, making my plays on them far more rewarding and making the game way more fun for me. The changes you suggest are definitely correct, but this new pp change is also a huge win. I hope both can be implemented in the future to fix this issue while retaining the major positives from this update :)
Same like to just play harder maps than go for high scores or combos. just broken into the 7* maps quite a jump in difficulty for me with my shit aim from 6* but alot of fun and challenge. Rank jumped from 600k to 330k today from changes happening so far. I like new pp alot
It IS flawed, but 1:04 is wrong, it won't reward an overweighted amount. They took that in account and basically made it so if you miss on the easy part you get an underwight amount (achieved by making misses on maps with easy parts harsher than misses on maps consistently difficult). But that's ok because it means that maps with easy parts will be slightly off-meta, which is not optimal but the dev team doesn't have unlimited resources. I guess they would've made the part in which you miss be a factor on the pp calculation by now if they could. To get an idea of how costly implementing this would be vs the current system: to store the amount of misses you'd need about two bytes per play, to store the amount of misses AND the time of the miss you would need about two bytes per miss (unless you use some type of compression, which they probably would ofc but then they would have to compress the data + I don't really want to do the math now lol)
im pretty sure i already mentioned that in the video. also the problem isnt maps with easy parts being off-meta, cuz thats how it actually should be. But if misses on easy parts are harsher that wouldnt really reflect how well you played a map. And since pp is supposed to reflect how well you played a map this wouldnt make sense.
This is just my humble opinion as a six digit and I might be very wrong about it. I don't want to shorten this, so be aware that this is a whole lot of text and probably all trash before wasting your time reading this. I am of the opinion that the pp system will never be perfect like many others as well, because whether the system is perfect is a subjective matter and there is no possibility to satisfy everyone. Of course there are issues that most people will agree on and improving them will improve the pp-system in general, but perfection seems impossible. That is one reason for me to not think about whether the pp-system is still flawed, but rather about it's improvement in contrast to past versions. Additionally as I understand it, trying to factor in where you missed in a map instead of just how often would mean rewriting the whole thing and since it's even more nuanced, it will be even more complicated afterwards. This alone could make this endevour near impossible, but since the current system is in development for many years already, a new one would likely be way more flawed than the current one at first, since there is no experience with it's flawes and there was never a way to fix all the problems our current one already fixed. Of course this would be fixed much faster than before, but it still means that we'd have a worse pp-system for maybe a few years, which many people wouldn't like. Osu! is popular for a rhythm game, but this genre in general is rather niche and I don't think it would be worth it to expend so many resources for a fix that will not improve the system substantially with a 100% probability, because our resources are rather limited. Still, if the pp-committee thinks otherwise, I will be hyped for the new change. I don't mean to say, it's not worth it to improve the system any further. But a change like this might be too much for the game to handle. In addition to that, it is questionable, whether the community would even want a perfect pp-system. Even with csr some people complained, because it decreased the worth of fcs in comparison to non-fcs, which means an important piece of osu!-culture would potentially be lost. This was partly fixed by higher miss penalties, but similar issues to a larger extend could occur with a change like this. I think criticizing pp is still important and your video addresses valid concerns. I don't mean to criticize your video in any way, because I think it does an important job in keeping the discussion about this topic alive. I just wanted to state my personal opinion on this matter.
yeah itd be a pain in the ass to add in, though like we did with csr, they might keep it experimental on the pp recalculation website for a while until they perfect it to add it to the game. adding something thats broken is something the pp devs dont do. Also csr haters are just malding; pp is supposed to reflect how you played, and combo scaling completely throw that out of the window. combo =/= skill as 99% of sane people know, so why should an fc be worth over double what a 1 miss is worth?
@Panguk Yeah, I forgot about the pp recalculation website. That of course means the risk is way lower and trying your idea might actually be not that bad. Maybe they will have a breakthrough while experimenting, which makes it way easier.
2:05 this example seems odd to me, since you’re missing on the easier map as well as the harder map. Should you not be punished for failing to hit an easier pattern?
Sure it is flawed, but it is as good as it has ever been tbh. I've been inactive ever since playing owc2017 and came back more or less only because of this change. :')
The slider break part is misleading. In Lazer because there is sliderhead accuracy, sliderheads provide accuracy pp when stable does not. Meaning that with maps with less than 1600 sliders Lazer could give more pp than stable.
yes, but not hitting the sliderhead counts as a seperate miss on lazer, while on stable you only get your combo broken and a 100 added to your accuracy. No miss is applied if you hit atleast one slidertick
finally someone has a word on this, i thought i was the only one. Ever since i realised something like this is being reworked i gained so many ranks i was a 6 digit around 150k. and guess what csr did to me i am now around 70k rating just due to the fact i have only A ranks with something like 95 acc in my top lists being 500pp maps with around 10-20 misses. i am just confused on why this is but now i can just play 500pp maps joke then a bit and still will be awarded 200-300pp which makes no sense
@@ChaosEater39 “as in less impactful to pp” what? i said misses on harder parts should punish you more than misses on easy parts, because the harder part is harder to hit. harder = more pp so if u hit a harder pattern as opposed to an easier pattern u should get more pp. I never said anything about rewarding misses on easier parts, just that they shouldnt weigh as much as missing on a hard pattern. the rest of your comment still makes no sense to me. “missing on the hard part is getting weighted higher anyways” if you mean weighted as in punished, this is not true; missing on the hard or easy part currently gives the exact same amount of pp
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TH-cam automod being weird so heres some information i received from someone more knowledgable, quote minisbett:
"1. Location-based miss penalty cannot possibly exist, it's impossible. And the way it is right now cannot result in overweightness due to the fact that misses are assumed to happen on the hardest part of the map. If anything, a score is underweight.
2. It would be a lot worse than you expect. And a lot more complicated. Should you get punished less on easy parts and more on hard parts? Or should you get punished more on easy parts because you're expected to hit it and if you don't you perform bad, and on hard parts less because you are expected to miss more? There's things like this which makes it pretty much impossible to use a location-based miss penalty if it would be possible. If you want to learn more, I suggest joining the PP Discord: discord.gg/aqPCnXu
3. If I understood your example with sliderbreaks correctly, you aren't quite right. It's a bit more complicated.
4. Regardless of stable being "spaghetti code", it is not fixable for the simple reason of backwards compatibility.
If you want to discuss this stuff on a more casual level, you can join the PP Off-Topic Discord: discord.gg/kU9N7zce"
thank you for watching regardless
When you click on the video and find a creator comment from less than a minute ago. Pog.
Petition for a 4 hour video essay about the pp system!!!!
@@saultyops8612 id get mugged by pp devs
This new pp update is a huge step in the right direction imo. I almost strictly play difficult maps (i beat yomi yori before getting a 300pp play lol) and before this, its been completely impossible to get ANY pp from them. But now, a lot of difficult maps like uta and raise my sword give actually good pp scores without an S rank, making my plays on them far more rewarding and making the game way more fun for me.
The changes you suggest are definitely correct, but this new pp change is also a huge win. I hope both can be implemented in the future to fix this issue while retaining the major positives from this update :)
Same like to just play harder maps than go for high scores or combos. just broken into the 7* maps quite a jump in difficulty for me with my shit aim from 6* but alot of fun and challenge. Rank jumped from 600k to 330k today from changes happening so far. I like new pp alot
It IS flawed, but 1:04 is wrong, it won't reward an overweighted amount. They took that in account and basically made it so if you miss on the easy part you get an underwight amount (achieved by making misses on maps with easy parts harsher than misses on maps consistently difficult). But that's ok because it means that maps with easy parts will be slightly off-meta, which is not optimal but the dev team doesn't have unlimited resources.
I guess they would've made the part in which you miss be a factor on the pp calculation by now if they could. To get an idea of how costly implementing this would be vs the current system: to store the amount of misses you'd need about two bytes per play, to store the amount of misses AND the time of the miss you would need about two bytes per miss (unless you use some type of compression, which they probably would ofc but then they would have to compress the data + I don't really want to do the math now lol)
im pretty sure i already mentioned that in the video.
also the problem isnt maps with easy parts being off-meta, cuz thats how it actually should be. But if misses on easy parts are harsher that wouldnt really reflect how well you played a map. And since pp is supposed to reflect how well you played a map this wouldnt make sense.
This is just my humble opinion as a six digit and I might be very wrong about it. I don't want to shorten this, so be aware that this is a whole lot of text and probably all trash before wasting your time reading this. I am of the opinion that the pp system will never be perfect like many others as well, because whether the system is perfect is a subjective matter and there is no possibility to satisfy everyone. Of course there are issues that most people will agree on and improving them will improve the pp-system in general, but perfection seems impossible. That is one reason for me to not think about whether the pp-system is still flawed, but rather about it's improvement in contrast to past versions. Additionally as I understand it, trying to factor in where you missed in a map instead of just how often would mean rewriting the whole thing and since it's even more nuanced, it will be even more complicated afterwards. This alone could make this endevour near impossible, but since the current system is in development for many years already, a new one would likely be way more flawed than the current one at first, since there is no experience with it's flawes and there was never a way to fix all the problems our current one already fixed. Of course this would be fixed much faster than before, but it still means that we'd have a worse pp-system for maybe a few years, which many people wouldn't like. Osu! is popular for a rhythm game, but this genre in general is rather niche and I don't think it would be worth it to expend so many resources for a fix that will not improve the system substantially with a 100% probability, because our resources are rather limited. Still, if the pp-committee thinks otherwise, I will be hyped for the new change. I don't mean to say, it's not worth it to improve the system any further. But a change like this might be too much for the game to handle. In addition to that, it is questionable, whether the community would even want a perfect pp-system. Even with csr some people complained, because it decreased the worth of fcs in comparison to non-fcs, which means an important piece of osu!-culture would potentially be lost. This was partly fixed by higher miss penalties, but similar issues to a larger extend could occur with a change like this. I think criticizing pp is still important and your video addresses valid concerns. I don't mean to criticize your video in any way, because I think it does an important job in keeping the discussion about this topic alive. I just wanted to state my personal opinion on this matter.
yeah itd be a pain in the ass to add in, though like we did with csr, they might keep it experimental on the pp recalculation website for a while until they perfect it to add it to the game. adding something thats broken is something the pp devs dont do.
Also csr haters are just malding; pp is supposed to reflect how you played, and combo scaling completely throw that out of the window. combo =/= skill as 99% of sane people know, so why should an fc be worth over double what a 1 miss is worth?
@Panguk Yeah, I forgot about the pp recalculation website. That of course means the risk is way lower and trying your idea might actually be not that bad. Maybe they will have a breakthrough while experimenting, which makes it way easier.
dropped the most lukewarm take of all time but decided to make it a paragraph
2:05 this example seems odd to me, since you’re missing on the easier map as well as the harder map. Should you not be punished for failing to hit an easier pattern?
i am a huge air misser so i do wish it was proportionate
research the pp system for taiko atm
Sure it is flawed, but it is as good as it has ever been tbh. I've been inactive ever since playing owc2017 and came back more or less only because of this change. :')
The slider break part is misleading. In Lazer because there is sliderhead accuracy, sliderheads provide accuracy pp when stable does not. Meaning that with maps with less than 1600 sliders Lazer could give more pp than stable.
yes, but not hitting the sliderhead counts as a seperate miss on lazer, while on stable you only get your combo broken and a 100 added to your accuracy. No miss is applied if you hit atleast one slidertick
finally someone has a word on this, i thought i was the only one. Ever since i realised something like this is being reworked i gained so many ranks i was a 6 digit around 150k. and guess what csr did to me i am now around 70k rating just due to the fact i have only A ranks with something like 95 acc in my top lists being 500pp maps with around 10-20 misses. i am just confused on why this is but now i can just play 500pp maps joke then a bit and still will be awarded 200-300pp which makes no sense
That play is definitely worth 320, my pp record is around 300 and doing that is quite impossible for me.
just want everyone to know that yomi yori (the dokito one) HR SS is worth 1200 pp 🤡
I think I might re-edit this comment tomorrow lol, I have no clue what I was saying XD
@@ChaosEater39 bad consistency should be rewarded? im not quite following this
in fact none of these sentences make sense
@@Panguk edited comment to make more sense
@@ChaosEater39 “as in less impactful to pp” what?
i said misses on harder parts should punish you more than misses on easy parts, because the harder part is harder to hit.
harder = more pp so if u hit a harder pattern as opposed to an easier pattern u should get more pp. I never said anything about rewarding misses on easier parts, just that they shouldnt weigh as much as missing on a hard pattern.
the rest of your comment still makes no sense to me. “missing on the hard part is getting weighted higher anyways” if you mean weighted as in punished, this is not true; missing on the hard or easy part currently gives the exact same amount of pp
@@Panguk im tired as hell idk what you are talking about or whatever. I think I edited the comment to say the opposite of my point lmfao
if a player only misses on the easy part, then it's not the easy part
It's call skill issue (jk)
not how that works lmao
this guy keeps deleting my comments on this vid giving some more information about the things raised in the video
its the filter going off 😭
check dms
Wrong wrong wrong and wrong
???
okay