Don't eliminate the Victron, build on it! The issue is probably due to the dead batteries pulling too much current when the Victron tries to bring them up to 14v. There should actually be a setting to limit the charge voltage on the Victron (your DIP switch method probably didn't get registered because you set the "Save" switch while the power is off, so it wasn't saved at all). Feed that Color GX with some 12v off a portable battery and use it to diagnose the Victron. I bet that Victron is still perfectly usable. Just add a couple of Victron MPPT chargers feeding into the battery and manage both through the Color GX. That transformer in the isolator box is probably for AC smoothing. That cheapo-looking solar inverter probably uses a switch-mode inverter which doesn't handle inductive loads well and that transformer is helping (I guess?). That's another advantage of the Victron inverter - they're quite unique in that they use good old low-frequency toroidal transformers which will comfortably take the abuse of a fridge or an a/c compressor kicking in.
that is correct the dip switchs need to be saved with the power on, the easy way would be clamp the AC out the breaker which i would guess is at 10A bescause it looks like it whould have losted all its settings due to not having power for a long time, the easyest way is plug the laptop in and check the settings and change. if it was closer i would go and do it.
I am still confused how many eletrician have no experience with Victron, it is one of the best brand and more flexible for these kind of stuff. Esepcially their capability to boost kW for a short amount by using grid AC
Victron system is actually very good, much use in the marine sector. Also technical support at Victron is excellent, worth a call. Fantastic video thank you
I would have thought the last place you want to site the batteries is in the roof space. My roof, which has breathable membrane and vents, gets upwards of 40 C in the peak of summer. I would have thought it would be better to put the batteries where they won't be exposed to such varying temps!
I wouldn’t say fire risk is the main issue but very likely the inverter and chargers will go over operating temperature very easily in the summer - since the inverter will be working hard in its very own personal sauna!
I HIGHLY doubt there is anything wrong with the Victron Multiplus - my experience with their kit is always excellent. I bet a pint it's the knackered batteries causing the trip. (And that you had the power off when trying to save the charge limit settings!!)
I work for a DNO on Social Media frontline customer service. I remember 10 years or so back there was the first big wave of PV installations. Many of those companies went bust leaving behind all kinds of mess. We're now solidly in the 2nd big wave of PV instLlation. My work has gone from like 10% PV issues to more like 40% & it's the same pattern of cowboy installers there for the easy subsidy money but not intetested in completing the paperwork & leaving confused customers to finish things off. Frustrating for them & for me & my colleagues as they don't really know what they need to do & we're not experts ourselves, though we're gaining knowledge & seeing patterns that help us plan to help customers navigate the process. Using a reputable installer is essential as there are so many potential issues if something goes wrong. I found this video really interesting. Thanks
Just a thought, but if the 3 batteries are totally dead, maybe the current pull in trying to charge all 3 batteries at the same time is the reason why the system is tripping out. Try putting only one battery on and charge that by itself. Maybe this is the issue? With 3 batteries connected in parallel the total resistance will be much lower, hence the higher current pull.
[maybe the current pull in trying to charge all 3 batteries at the same time is the reason why the system is tripping out. ] That happens, obviously, but any design worth its salt (bad pun) will regulate to a starting trickle for the sake of the batteries as well as the source impedance of the supply.
Hi Jordan, I run a company designing electronics and just wanted to point out that the transformers in those units are 'toroidal' transformers, which are notorious for high inrush currents at power up (but are great for efficiency which is why they are extensively used in audio amplifiers and bench top/performance power supplies). It could possibly explain why the newer breakers in the consumer unit are tending to trip!
Toroidal core inrush characteristics are very easy to buffer in power circuits. In audio, as per OPTX for 'valve' amplifiers...a whole other discussion, mostly around the core material and the annealing properties for the core type. But beside that, it's much easier to get a much wider audio bandwidth and linear response than with equiv EI types. Without a schematic being displayed, I'm puzzled by the size of the toroid in that box. That looks good for roughly a KW @ 50Hz....but it's too small to use for maximum yield, and too large for a voltage control sensing xfmr. Is it being used at a higher frequency chopped feed? (~400Hz or higher?) I note the audio circuit is picking up an induced chop....dammit, show a schematic!
I had to check an inverter a few months back doing something similar and after much research and contact with the manufacturer it turned out to be the PCB inside was dead. A replacement/board repair was possible but the client decided to replace the inverter. Love your fault finding process, always learn a thing or 10. Thanks Jordan!
Yeah but here he just didn't save the changes at all... The inverter needs to be powered to register the changes made.. somewhat obvious I would think 😬
I’m not an electrician but did a DIY Victron ESS setup with zero feed in to satisfy the DIY regs. It’s massively neater than that mess! And so easy to scale! Putting a second array up soon, was very easy to adapt the setup to handle that, and the software “just works”!
Same, I made it pretty with a glass front cabinet and some reflective plastic, looks so professsional compare to anything these companies put in people's houses.
It's possible that inverter doesn't like completely dead/degraded batteries (or could be a bad one of the three), could be tested with a known good lead acid battery (car battery?). However whichever is the issue might as well overhaul the system and switch to a lithium battery
agree, there is most likely nothing wrong with the Victron and advising to replace everything is way too easy. AE does normally a good job in faultfinding but they missed it completely on this one. The PV invertor is indeed 1 mppt missing. Looking on a few frames it looks like the top capacitor is a bit bulging.
@@astrogerard I mean the customer still has to replace the half-borked PV inverter and either the batteries or the other inverter and asked for an hybrid system. It makes sense to overhaul and modernize the system with a new inverter and a lithium battery
I have good experience from the Fronius inverters. The GEN24 seems to be quite interesting and it has an emergency power function now that the earlier Symo I have experience from don't have. The Fronius inverter can be integrated with a home automation system like Home Assistant as well.
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The Victron products with a charger function can charge a dead flat battery, they will even do it with an optimized algorithm to make the less damage possible to the battery and avoid hazardous situations like heavy H2 forming etc.
Victrons can be configured with dip switches or more commonly, by use of the Victron MK3-USB and Windows/MAC software. I think someone already mentioned the unit was off when you tried setting it, the unit needs to be on. I would disconnect the batteries so you don't draw any load. The Colour Control unit is normally powered from the batteries, and means it still operates with no AC, also worth noting it is not required for operation of the inverter, but very useful to have is it had lots of great features.
I think you are a wonderful electrician and produce very nice quality videos... as an industrial electrician working on locomotives (and yes I realize that I am talking with the perspective of pterodactyl verses a peacock) I find that the trouble shooting is way different and yet closely related. I started on one end and worked my way to the other end looking for problems. Like the Victron issue, unplug everything and plug in the unit to mains, flip the breaker and see if it tripped any thing then. Yes/no? You know, the fault finding tree... if everything that this unit is powering is disconnected and it still trips the mains breaker and its own internal breakers then YES the unit is failed, if NO plug something back in to the unit and start the process all over moving to the next component on that line. I would wager that the batteries being in such a state of discharge are asking to be charged over the rating of the Victron unit. Remove 2 of the batteries from the parallel circuit and test again. I do love the videos and realize the amount of time involved in their production and I do so appreciate it!! Sorry for the critique I am an old dinosaur that is sometimes quite the curmudgeon...
Hi Jordan, Great bit of fault finding on the PV. I never think is a very good idea having any inverter in a roof space and particularly batteries due to heat in the summer. In most cases the inverter will reduce output 24:25 to try and reduce heat - just when you need it!! As the batteries were totally flat - it may be worth disconnecting 2 out of the 3 it seems if that helps.
@@Spacer-l3j If battery is designed to withstand higher temperatures that does not mean it should be used under such conditions if avoidable. Besides that car batteries don't get discharged like solar batteries.
I had heat issues in my loft over the heatwave, it caused many problems. Even tho the equipment can be outside. The manual says to be in a protected spot. No direct sunlight, no direct rain etc. My loft swings from 6 to 30 in a year. An the inverter reports 40+ where it then throttles. I had a battery issue due to heat and draw, fortunately I saved the batteries by isolating them and manually charging them. The other heat issue I had was a blown extractor fan and a circulation pump that went noisey. Next house nothing in the loft if I can avoid it.
@@davidsharp9166 hi David, as with any of this type of equipment including the batteries I was always told that it is always better to find a location that is more stable with temperatures if possible. I know it may be convenient from and installation point of view, but constant prolonged high temperatures generally takes it toll. I am certainly no professional in this particular field but I’ve had experience of these systems for over 25 years.
Here in Australia the Victron brand is very popular with people building off grid homes.Some people don’t realise your supposed to pre charge the capacitors in the inverter before turning them on.
You can put the controller and the color control from a 12V power supply as well. But the batteries still probably need to be replaced, as deeply as they are discharged. With such a low power state, the Multiplus likely won't start charging.
I'm amazed that you aren't more aware of Victron systems. They're not only used in the marine and motorhome industries but widely used in static off-grid situations too. As those batteries were down to less than a volt they're probably terminally sulphated but an equalisation charge from the Multiplus might breathe a little life back into them. For now, charge them up with a dumb charger (no 'smart' charger will charge a 12V battery that's putting out less than around 6V) and then let the Multiplus look after them.
Loads of Solar companies went bust after the FIT payment dropped then ceased, these companies relied on getting the FIT payment to survive as far as I'm aware. I know the company that fitted mine back in 2015 went bust. I do have a warranty (not with them). I also have a Victron multiplus2 DC storage too. They're not cheap, but they are very good and can be expanded in many ways and are ideal for boating, mobile home and for being completely off grid.
Those batteries are toast, they want replacing before condemning the victron unit. The DC readings are so bad it’s obvious but you really need an impedance tester such as the hioki 3554 if you intend working with battery storage. I’d of also tested the PV strings for low Riso with a seaward, really the first port of call fault finding solar! You do really nice normal domestic stuff but a lot of learning to do in this area. You sounded a bit condescending of the Victron DIY crowd but trust me, they could teach you an awful lot.
Looking at the battery leads, they were linked incorrectly. A parallel system of three batteries should have the charge/ inverter leads joining from opposite ends of the battery set. Pos lead to first battery with links to pos2 and pos3, then Negative lead to 3 with links to neg2 and neg1. The resistance in the leads means the battery electrically nearest the charge/inverter gets more heavily discharged and more charged than that farthest in the line, consequently the setup reduces battery capacity and life.
Marine electronic engineer here so work with the victron a lot. Some things to be aware of how the power is done for the display cerbo gx downstairs is fine its so it can keep its full history. Be monitored remotely for faults, state of charge tc... when the rest of the system is powered down. In regards to the dipswitch method honestly its awful and not worth setting the units like that, best plugging into a laptop and setting up. But as the cerbo gx is in the system and connected this can be used to set the unit up. This is where you set battery types, size, current limits etc.. So with this in the system from memory this takes priority over the dipswitch settings in the unit so with it connected changing them won't make a diffrence to how the unit behaves. It you need to problem solve one of these best to disconnect the ac out, external control displays etc.. and just have batteries and ac in. In regards to the batteries and the voltage the victron won't charge batteries below a certain threshold even with ac voltage present on the input. So need to charge them separately till about 10.8v before it would kick in. (Have had to do this a few times). In regards to that current limits for the charger that doesn't mean the ac current would be that much less as depends on the ac loads. The reason is on victron units they will still pass ac out as its present on the ac input. Using a laptop or external controller i.e. cerbox gx. you can limit the max current draw which depending on the model can be up to 100a. This is passed straight through to ac out and what ever current it needs to charge. So this means if the inverter is 1200w in this case it actually still provide more current than what it is actually rated to this is just what the unit itself produces when in inverter mode. Also if the victron unit finds the current draw is higher than the current limit then the unit would switch to inverter mode and draw additional required power from the batteries. So I think you said the breaker was 6 amp for the ac in? So if this was going to a double socket and and the ac current limits was 5 amp the current draw demand on it was say 10 amp the victron would then switch to inverter mode to supply the additional 5 amps. This would potentially mean the batteries would never get charged depending on how long the demand was. With the cerbogx you can change how the unit operates so could manually set it from the panel to charger only to top the batteries up. Unfortunately though like I said before if the batteries are to low won't do anything. I can't remember if their is something you can change to stop this would need to dig a manual out. If you ever need help with victron our company is based in Essex so can give us a bell. (Sorry long post 😅)
Are you sure the batteries are wired in series at 17:51 ? should be parallel supplying 12v to the Multiplus. Either way take those heavy batteries out of the roof and replace with LifePO4 as I doubt you will be able to recover the lead acid batteries if they have been flat for any length of time.
Really enjoyed your video. Very thorough and diligent as always. I like the fact you don’t pretend to know everything but instead put it out there for people who may know the answer to leave their comment. 👍
You can just see how this is all going to pan out - its going to be like cars & MOT & tax & insurance, in that if you want home insurance, you will need an MOT/EICR/Oftec/gasafe + building regulation cert. (maybe not every year for jo public, but certainly for rental properties)?
Good video but like other comments I reckon the batteries have had it. If the voltage is lower than 9v, then they are fully discharged . Like others, a 12v system sounds strange for a house install. Also not completely sure if the multiplus is on the MCs register for grid connection, victron are sorting that at the moment. You should be able to get good money for the victron kit for someone's camper van project, but these days I would go for 24 or 48v units, it cuts the cost on the cabling and the possible heat !
It's refreshing to see ACTUAL workmanship and someone who knows that they're at. Yet another amazing video. Great work and every video is thoroughly enjoyable and informative. Kudos to your work ethic Jordan - don't ever lose that 👍
Try disconnecting the batteries to test the victron! If it turns on in charger only then it still has life in it but with victron you dont wanna have the inverter on when theres already existing mains with a dead battery. Try putting it on a good battery see if you guys can revive it.
At 0.9V, the storage seems to have died from neglect, thereby causing the charger to trip. I would treat each one as a separate battery, attempting to charge with a car battery charger that self limits to 4 or 6 amps. My guess is that they are lead acid, over discharged, and will not recover. Costing your time means the complete replacement is the only economical option for a non-technical customer.
Here is your answer to the tripping Victron! A lead acid battery that’s deeply (over) discharged is normally considered to have lost half its storage capacity! Normal discharge will see the cells at around 2 volts per cell anything much below this would be considered deeply discharged, 6 cells in each battery giving your nominal 12v but in truth 12 v is what they show when fully normally discharged. If the battery ever gets down to 11V is deep discharged and pretty badly damaged! Yours are reading 0.9 V and are fubar! That’s why the victron is drawing more current and tripping. You could disconnect all bar in battery and you might even get it to recover to 11+V but it will never store even a small amount of power ever again. All the batteries need changing and then the Voctron will probably work fine. My guess is the inverter threw the fault the Victron decided with no solar it was pointless wasting energy charging the batteries of the mains and so didn’t charge the batteries and they are now toast
5:39 - I'm going to stick my neck out here and say this is a power factor correction device. I'm not a solar installer, but an electronic engineer. This would be used to correct the power factor (the ratio between real power in kilowatts and apparent power in kva caused by distortion of the sine wave) an uncorrected system imposes a greater load on the utility and lower efficiency as more current is needed to transfer the same amount of power. In this case, the toroidal 'transformer' would actually be an inductor and the other components would be capacitors and inductors too.
Hi Jason…..yep batteries discharged below default setting on the controller…..so disconnect batteries and charge em up old school, or replace, fire up 12v controller and check setup is correct to suit batteries type. Victoron gear is probably ok, once controller is back to normal, think some folks on same path😅
Excellent video showing what happens when these systems fail & the problems & cost trying to getting them up an running again. Industry standards need to be put into place so that when these companies go conveniently bust that a company like yours can come in and can more easily fix the problem. We have the same problem in the US with systems installed poorly & companies like Solindra, making tons of money on promises & then disappearing!
Yes worth considering items failing especially out of warranty, most of the cowboy solar companies won't be here in 5 years so you need to have a few options in case of problems and also to consider this into your costs when buying the system
you need to program the Victron's dip switches while it has power supplied but power switch in off position. You tried to program it then you pressed the reset button. Reset the unit first then program it then power it up.
Could you connect a couple of MC4 Y connectors and just use one set of Inverter connectors? This connection method seems common with SolarEdge Inverters with one set of MC4 terminals.
There's probably nothing wrong with the Victron, it's just the batteries gone dead... Victron has protection build-in to prevent internal battery short circuit frying the inverter.
This is the biggest issue with "investing in the local business". Been burned one too many times where I do just that...sometimes at a slight premium vs some of the more bigger established players only to find the smaller guys have gone bust leaving me with a bigger issue to resolve/replace. Catch-22 really
Are there any industry member organisations they could join that take over their warranty obligations in the event they liquidate? Also, not sure about the UK, but in NZ the consumer gets to choose who to deal with on issues surrounding durability, well beyond any explicit warranty - you can go to the local importer/distributor or even manufacturer if they have a presence. And that will cover incidental costs too, such as labour, where the equipment has proven to not be reasonably durable.
So i do marine electrical and victron is an industry standard for me. Its very hard to wreck victrons but its possible had a customer just recently who wanted to fit a large alternator to feed the lithium and wrecked their mppt.
I appreciate your video and it highlights the issue with solar installations around the country (i.e. after service install issues). However given that most solar installers are start ups or joe bloggs limited companies it's impossible to know who will stay the course of time and survive after 5-10 years (bar the likes of Project Solar etc). I'm in the midst of evaluating a solar panel installation but the issue of post install service seems to be next to impossible to guarantee. Any tips from anyone would be greatly appreciated
I've work for Project Solar for over 10 years now, we are the biggest and most experienced in the UK market. We are well financed, financially secure and growing. There's are lot of interesting products and developments happening across our group of companies currently.
A good tip would be to spend half an hour reading the Trustpilot reviews for that company you mention, then find a local, well established installer (5 years minimum) and get some references. Don't just take the cheapest quote, research the materials you are being offered.
@@sundog3944 Thank you, good advise spending half an hour reading the reviews on Project Solar, currently 3621 on trustpilot, rated excellent 4.3. But not sure about the advice on local companies though, too many going pop at the moment, hence the OP question, some taking customer's deposit money, and 5 years is just too short.
So dead batteries. Anything below 10v and they're toast. A lot of outlay for 1000 watts of power. It will cost thousands to update that with a new battery, inverter etc. Is it worth it?
As it is an old system, the chances are that with the correct transfer paperwork the system is collecting very high feed in payments and will do so for another 10 years or so. This combined with the current cost of energy makes it well worth fixing.
The Cerbo and Victron are great pieces of kit, and the install is, in theory, working, but the design is wrong. Using excess solar to feed the Multiplus is fine, and the MP will adapt the charge to available excess. During night, the MP can act in reverse, keeping the grid net to zero. (backfeeding) from the batteries. Major issue in this case is using lead-acid for cycle usage: you will kill them soon. And if the MP has no way of measuring the SOC (either BMV or Lynx) it can't see sh*t, nor can it keep the batteries to get too low in charge. This would work fine with lifepo4, but 12V is uncommon (most setups are 48V). Also, the MP compact is not within regulations for backfeeding. You need the MP II (double grid disconnect), but certification for UK is currently pending. For all Victron gear: Get the MK3 USB to fully configure/monitor the Victron. In your case: The CCGX can be connected to ethernet so you can configure the MP using the Victron VRM portal.
i couldn't agree more, if that was my system i would make 48v Lifpo4, MP11, MPPT, all victron apart from the batterys, and run the whole house when the MP11 get there ENA or use a quattro that is ENA appovered now.
A lot of initial installers popped up when the government was handing out solar grants all over the place with very little oversight, so you had dodgy electricians who weren't doing any training about the systems just trying to chuck any system they could get their hands on in to as many places as possible then disappear before any problems started showing up.
The batteries are in a state of deep discharge and possibly faulty. The Victron multiplus will not charge a faulty battery and will activate its protection. The way the battery bank is currently connected is wrong, in it's current configuration it will lead to uneven charging of the parallel bank and eventually failure. Both charging/supply cables are connected to the first battery. The correct way is to leave the +ve cable connected to the first battery but the -ve cable must be connected to -ve post of the third battery. This will ensure an even charge off all three batteries. Battery health should have been checked before attempting to charge them, impedance/conductance test with a proper battery tester should have been carried out to see if they are still in spec. Batteries are dangerous and can explode. I like Victron their kit is modular, I have seen them supplying factories in countries that have unstable grids prone to frequent load shedding, as well as off-grid homes and resorts. Technical support is pretty good as well. Enjoy your videos.
Back in the day, when the government introduced the feed in tariff system, there was a huge surge in demand for solar installs. Loads of companies sprang up to to service the demand. years later the FIT system was cut back and eventually ended, the demand slumped and many of those companies folded because there wasn't enough business for all of them. I had solar panels put in in 2011 which was around peak demand. The company that put them in folded around 2018. Mine have "hung in there" and are still going, but if they ever pack up I'll have to find someone to sort them.
I enjoyed this video. I would be really interested in a follow-up video when you replace the system with a hybrid. I have been using a Hybrid invert with batteries for about a year now, and I’ve been impressed with how they work, As they essentially become energy management systems for your home.
Odyssey batteries are lead acid... by the looks of those they've been in for a fair while, too. I'd replace them for a lithium setup instead and it should just fire right up. Hybrid dc coupled inverter is definitely the way to go though. Less losses changing dc to ac & back to dc again to store in the batteries
Lead acid will get munched by a storage system, my old batteries, had I actually bought them instead of salvaging them, worked out at 20 pence per kWh cycled through the pack (price divided by (kWh capacity * cycle life)). Pylontech is more like 6p/kWh, DIY LiFePO4 2 or 3p.
I remember being interested in getting into working on solar installations back before the feed in tariff boom. Solar installers were hard to find. Then suddenly as the 42p feed in tariffs arrived, the internet was awash with solar installer websites, all claiming to be experts....I joined one of the better ones, but the regs were still shaking down for this "new" tech. Suddenly the bonanza was over and most of the companies disappeared as fast as the arrived... the upshot was a legacy of very poor quality solar installs, many no longer functional, and no back up for the customers. A lot of wasted equipment and money...not very green....Seeing your quality of work is encouraging, but sadly there are still many awful installs and lack of maintenance, particularly on new builds where the developers are just ticking the green boxes to get their plans approved.
I can feel the pain of visiting bust companies installs and fault finding. Also dealing with equipment that you've not installed yourself is challenging. I had to make two visits to a hybrid system get it online and attempt to charge the batteries to finally find out the batteries are not discharging. Left unsure if the fault was with the inverter (hybrid, pv was working), BMS or meter (coincidentally the same type of meter as the one in this vid) and did not have much help form the manufacturer. Considering the system is from 2017 and out of warranty do I attempt to look into the issues further and replace components until I fix the system or suggest a replacement hybrid and battery system. Obviously replace the inverter and start over. Lots of Victron fans here have are being a bit precious, yes they are very adaptable but pretty involved if you are used to standard PV and ESS inverters. Even decent manufacturers inverters go bad and its can be time consuming to find the issues.
It's interesting seeing that bank of Odyssey batteries - I replaced the lead acid battery on my old 1995 BMW Motorbike with an Odyssey battery - didn't realise (obvious really) that they do larger units!
Im just reading some of the comments, and there are words that pop up like 'conveniently'. Why is it an automatic assumption that companies go bust on purpose? In fact, there probably aren't any of the original solar install companies around anymore due to the arse falling out the solar market years ago due to the feeding tariff changes. If their whole business model was based on solar, then the changes would have been devastating to them. That's why it is important not to put your eggs all in one basket. You never know what is around the corner. IMO. Another good video👍🏻
Hi Jorden. You should connect the negative cable of the victron inverter to te last battery and not to the first one as it is now. Now the cables to the first battery are shorter than the last one, so for the last battery the resitance is higher, therefore is battery will give less power than the first one. So connect the positive (RED) cable to the first battery en de nagetive (Black) to the last. Make shure that all the jumper wires are exectly the same length. Also, because the battery are completly dead now, you may have te charge them first one by one so the charge currect will stay lower. Maybe is easier to do this with a external battery charger.
If the only place to site the equipment is in the loft space, then an insulated enclosure ought to be constructed to mitigate the annual temperature gradients you can expect. Also a far easier cleaner workspace, rather than breathing insulation particles and dust. Make it a compartment designed for regular access rather than Christmas decorations attitude.
There's an inordinate number of sense, sample and correct loops in this instance. I'm a tech, albeit in another branch of electronics, but pwr supply circuits are very similar across many areas of electrics/electronics. The first thing I'd need is a schematic to understand what's going on.
The batt system is AC connected and will only charge if there is overproduction. If the PV inverter didn’t work the batteries got drained and died. The Victon is prob still oké. You could connect the two strings as a poly-string on one mppt tracker. The max string current Will be exceeded, but this wont matter because of the east-west oriëntation of the PV-modules.
You can tell the batteries are swollen some on the sides. Bad batteries for sure. Those Odyssey PC1800 units are about 7KWh of capacity with the three of them, however because they are AGM you should never use more than 50% so its about 3-3.5KWh worth of capacity. My guess is the Victron unit is good, but because of the bad batteries, it causing the problems.
Matt:e devices like that PV+ is designed (as you read out) with Open-PEN-like functions to watch for overvoltage. The autotransformer within it is designed to lift the voltage from the PV generation (the opposite of an optimiser). The theory is that when the inverter output from the PV is lacking or fading to a non-production/shutdown-state, the matt:e output is exaggerating the voltage and therefore able to feed into the system for slightly longer than if the voltage was left as stock. The isolator switch providing a convenient function that might have used up that space with something one way or another. Snake-oil? Perhaps that depends on how light levels improve with hotter summers and dryer winters. Thought to add words about this feature here in case you thought you were missing a trick. Much depends on what price they go for and what functions already exist in the hybrid inverter that has been selected and whether you get your isolators from a top-tier £xxx vendor or a more generic brand.
I was told never to install solar, batteries etc in the roof space, and looking at that loft space it is very damaged and the whole loft area looks like it's been a botch job, as that brick work, the shoddy insulation, and the cement, panels is horrific, as not even the labelling has been inked with certification date, codes.
Agree with some other comments, depending on the type of battery there is a minimum voltage that it should go to before its knackered and will present a resistance short
My inverter is an Omnik and apparently they went out of business but the display on that device looks just like the display on your customer's inverter. Now I'm not an expert but I've seen Will Prowse often talking about battery setups and he seems to always charge the batteries before first use. I'm curious why the Victron is not able to deal with charging at a low current.
If the batteries are down that low, chances are they are toast, and the 'charger' won't be able to recover them no matter what the settings are. If you can get even one healthy 12V battery even just temporarily connected, that should prove the Victron unit.
I am getting the heebie jeebies over the main RCD panel. Rats nest of wiring. Had I done that with my old colleague signing off he would have given me an earful. I was taught to do straight cable porn setups. Easier to view and fault find.
Looks like the victron setup is missing fuses, a BMS and a shunt on the batteries. Most victron kit will not work without batteries, and id would suspect this also means totaly dead battries like these. Just add a victron MPPT and some new lifepo4 batteries with a shunt and proper BMS for a DC coupled hybrid system all controled by the colour GX. Program to charge frol solar and off peak tarrif and use / grid export during peak rates and it should pay for itself in no time.
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It's the usual way to connect the CCGX (or any other GX device) to the battery. The battery is normally always providing enough power for the controller even is the battery is "empty" i.e. 75 or 80% of full capacity if it is a lead-acid battery. If it went totally empty then something weird happened as the CCGX and the MultiPlus should have both prevented the inverter to provide AC
To me the transformer at 5:17 is an insulation transformer that separates the grid from the solar system so that the neutral/phase to the solar system is "floating" as well as avoiding DC current going out on the electric grid. Basically an added safety feature.
It is an autotransformer from matt:e (PV+). Designed to boost voltage to evade the overall PV output from shutting down quite so quickly as it otherwise would. It is a voltage optimiser with a protection function as Artisan indicates. But the protection is a secondary function to the voltage boost. If I didn't know the product then I'd still have made a different assessment. Without semiconductor assistance to punt the 50Hz to 400Hz+ (as per MasterVolt Mass GI 3.5/7.0) then the transformer would be a lot weightier for 240V 16A that that leg is servicing through.
It's not a transformer. 1 wire in and 1 out is a big inductor. Band aid to avoid undersized inverter tripping with high inrush inductive load like a pump?
@@Not_Sure-i6o I see now that there are three wires and not four, but that could mean that it's a normalizing transformer where the PV system is designed for 230V nominal voltage while the UK electrical system is 240V nominal voltage. Most of Europe runs 230V nominal voltage.
Hi Jordan you might remember me from emails regarding cable and advise for a Hypervolt charger, I’m the auto electrician. Obviously I deal with DC voltage on cars so I’m not sure about solar and the DC batteries but car battery chargers these days are a bit more sophisticated than before and I’m wondering if the AC charger is similar. When charging a car battery with a good quality charger, if the battery voltage is lower than 2V there is usually a button that needs to be pressed to tell the charger that there is a battery connected and that you have connected it correctly (+ -). If the battery is lower than 2V and you just connected it to charge it does just switch off. I’m not saying this is the problem in your case but it may be worth checking. 👍👍
Generally batteries are under discharged you can recover them but you need specialist charges or with some battery technologies. You need to replace them for safety reasons to the inverter probably just will not work just to ensure safety
My OCD was having a fit when the spare breaker got turned off... I can't stand finding boards with spares not left on, it makes quick visual identification of a tripped circuit painful.
Seems most electricians are brought up on AC so have very little knowledge of low voltage DC - either way condemning the Victron due to the lead acid battery bank being at 0.9V is a schoolboy error 🤦♂️ Disconnect and test the Victron with a car battery if nothing else 🙄
Thanks for another interesting video. What type of battery chemistry? I might have missed something but was the charger in a catch 22 situation? Needed to be on to have the DIP switch save setting stick, but couldn't stay on due to tripping?
Looks like the batteries connected in series have their +ve and -ve takeoffs both from the same end battery. Best practice is to take +ve from one end of the battery "string" and -ve from the other end. Otherwise the connecting cable voltage drop will mean the batteries aren't balanced.
Many of the solar install companies went bust due to the way the (Tory) Government handled the FIT rate changes, repeatedly cutting them by massive amounts. This caused big booms (where everyone wanted to get their system installed before the rate dropped), followed by big busts (where the companies that had recruited lots of staff to do the installs suddenly had much less work for them). The FIT was supposed to seed the industry, but actually ended up doing the exact opposite.
carry the mk3 and laptop and just plug into the inverter directly, being able to export the config, fix the config (who knows if it was programmed correctly) and upgrade firmware is helpful. dip switches are for last ditch effort only. nothing wrong with Victron.
Good advice at the end, but who knows the future. Some big installers just vanished from the game, mine did! Fortunately I’ve not had a problem yet, but I’m sure that day will come!
Completely agree with the sentiment, 26 years in the UK Solar industry, done thousands of installations, seen lots of cowboys come and go, buy cheap, buy twice.
The Victron just won't like the batteries that are destroyed. It's not worth replacing the Victron Multiplus for a hybrid inverter though, it's a far better BMS.
I love you watching work but I still can't understand why you still touch transformers with your bear fingers like in 5:24 without at least testing it for voltage with a voltage detector pen! Anyway thank you very much for all your sharing of knowledge! Cheers and stay safe guys !
Boat systems are typically 12V with an inverter used to produce 240VAC for "normal" domestic appliances. The batteries are usually charged from the engine and/or solar. So, the system is 12V and everything, including the Color Controller, is wired into 12V. When moored in a marina, it is very antisocial to run your engine to charge the batteries so the MultiPlus does two things. It feeds 240VAC directly to the AC devices and charges the batteries, usually from a 16A supply. It is also quite common (and highly desirable) to isolate the incoming earth from the boat's earth and this is done with a galvanic isolator or, better still, an isolation transformer. On a boat plugged into the mains, the MulpiPlus acts as a big uninterruptible power supply and will switch the 240VAC to the batteries via the inverter if the mains goes. It is also quite clever and can assist the incoming mains if more than 16A is required.
Request a quote from Artisan Electrics here - app.openquote.net/company/artisanelectrics
Don't eliminate the Victron, build on it! The issue is probably due to the dead batteries pulling too much current when the Victron tries to bring them up to 14v. There should actually be a setting to limit the charge voltage on the Victron (your DIP switch method probably didn't get registered because you set the "Save" switch while the power is off, so it wasn't saved at all). Feed that Color GX with some 12v off a portable battery and use it to diagnose the Victron.
I bet that Victron is still perfectly usable. Just add a couple of Victron MPPT chargers feeding into the battery and manage both through the Color GX.
That transformer in the isolator box is probably for AC smoothing. That cheapo-looking solar inverter probably uses a switch-mode inverter which doesn't handle inductive loads well and that transformer is helping (I guess?). That's another advantage of the Victron inverter - they're quite unique in that they use good old low-frequency toroidal transformers which will comfortably take the abuse of a fridge or an a/c compressor kicking in.
I saw that too -:)
that is correct the dip switchs need to be saved with the power on, the easy way would be clamp the AC out the breaker which i would guess is at 10A bescause it looks like it whould have losted all its settings due to not having power for a long time, the easyest way is plug the laptop in and check the settings and change. if it was closer i would go and do it.
I am still confused how many eletrician have no experience with Victron, it is one of the best brand and more flexible for these kind of stuff. Esepcially their capability to boost kW for a short amount by using grid AC
bin it, its a 12 volt system. limited scalablity and massive costs as a result
I would also need to double check but I think the 1200 muliplus isnt g98 so couldnt add to it.
Victron system is actually very good, much use in the marine sector. Also technical support at Victron is excellent, worth a call. Fantastic video thank you
Victron will repair any of their products either under warranty or for a reasonable charge
I would have thought the last place you want to site the batteries is in the roof space. My roof, which has breathable membrane and vents, gets upwards of 40 C in the peak of summer. I would have thought it would be better to put the batteries where they won't be exposed to such varying temps!
I thoroughly agree. There's a number of reasons not to site them up there. They should be on a concrete base with a catch dish in case of leakage.
And the inverter. I dont get it.
A massive fire risk?
I wouldn’t say fire risk is the main issue but very likely the inverter and chargers will go over operating temperature very easily in the summer - since the inverter will be working hard in its very own personal sauna!
@@NorthernEwan Appreciate the reply, thanks.
I HIGHLY doubt there is anything wrong with the Victron Multiplus - my experience with their kit is always excellent.
I bet a pint it's the knackered batteries causing the trip.
(And that you had the power off when trying to save the charge limit settings!!)
I work for a DNO on Social Media frontline customer service. I remember 10 years or so back there was the first big wave of PV installations. Many of those companies went bust leaving behind all kinds of mess.
We're now solidly in the 2nd big wave of PV instLlation. My work has gone from like 10% PV issues to more like 40% & it's the same pattern of cowboy installers there for the easy subsidy money but not intetested in completing the paperwork & leaving confused customers to finish things off. Frustrating for them & for me & my colleagues as they don't really know what they need to do & we're not experts ourselves, though we're gaining knowledge & seeing patterns that help us plan to help customers navigate the process.
Using a reputable installer is essential as there are so many potential issues if something goes wrong.
I found this video really interesting. Thanks
Just a thought, but if the 3 batteries are totally dead, maybe the current pull in trying to charge all 3 batteries at the same time is the reason why the system is tripping out. Try putting only one battery on and charge that by itself. Maybe this is the issue? With 3 batteries connected in parallel the total resistance will be much lower, hence the higher current pull.
[maybe the current pull in trying to charge all 3 batteries at the same time is the reason why the system is tripping out. ] That happens, obviously, but any design worth its salt (bad pun) will regulate to a starting trickle for the sake of the batteries as well as the source impedance of the supply.
Hi Jordan, I run a company designing electronics and just wanted to point out that the transformers in those units are 'toroidal' transformers, which are notorious for high inrush currents at power up (but are great for efficiency which is why they are extensively used in audio amplifiers and bench top/performance power supplies). It could possibly explain why the newer breakers in the consumer unit are tending to trip!
Toroidal core inrush characteristics are very easy to buffer in power circuits. In audio, as per OPTX for 'valve' amplifiers...a whole other discussion, mostly around the core material and the annealing properties for the core type. But beside that, it's much easier to get a much wider audio bandwidth and linear response than with equiv EI types.
Without a schematic being displayed, I'm puzzled by the size of the toroid in that box. That looks good for roughly a KW @ 50Hz....but it's too small to use for maximum yield, and too large for a voltage control sensing xfmr. Is it being used at a higher frequency chopped feed? (~400Hz or higher?) I note the audio circuit is picking up an induced chop....dammit, show a schematic!
I had to check an inverter a few months back doing something similar and after much research and contact with the manufacturer it turned out to be the PCB inside was dead. A replacement/board repair was possible but the client decided to replace the inverter. Love your fault finding process, always learn a thing or 10. Thanks Jordan!
Yeah but here he just didn't save the changes at all...
The inverter needs to be powered to register the changes made.. somewhat obvious I would think 😬
Learn a thing or 10... is that "10" binary, so basically "learn a thing or two?" haha. Sorry, just being a geek.
@RedMatrix it is now..... I like that! :) 😀 good spot. 👍
I’m not an electrician but did a DIY Victron ESS setup with zero feed in to satisfy the DIY regs.
It’s massively neater than that mess!
And so easy to scale! Putting a second array up soon, was very easy to adapt the setup to handle that, and the software “just works”!
Same, I made it pretty with a glass front cabinet and some reflective plastic, looks so professsional compare to anything these companies put in people's houses.
It's possible that inverter doesn't like completely dead/degraded batteries (or could be a bad one of the three), could be tested with a known good lead acid battery (car battery?).
However whichever is the issue might as well overhaul the system and switch to a lithium battery
agree, there is most likely nothing wrong with the Victron and advising to replace everything is way too easy. AE does normally a good job in faultfinding but they missed it completely on this one. The PV invertor is indeed 1 mppt missing. Looking on a few frames it looks like the top capacitor is a bit bulging.
@@astrogerard I mean the customer still has to replace the half-borked PV inverter and either the batteries or the other inverter and asked for an hybrid system.
It makes sense to overhaul and modernize the system with a new inverter and a lithium battery
I have good experience from the Fronius inverters.
The GEN24 seems to be quite interesting and it has an emergency power function now that the earlier Symo I have experience from don't have.
The Fronius inverter can be integrated with a home automation system like Home Assistant as well.
The Victron products with a charger function can charge a dead flat battery, they will even do it with an optimized algorithm to make the less damage possible to the battery and avoid hazardous situations like heavy H2 forming etc.
@@astrogerard Agreed capacitor is bulging slightly so probably have a high ESR value, well spotted
Victrons can be configured with dip switches or more commonly, by use of the Victron MK3-USB and Windows/MAC software. I think someone already mentioned the unit was off when you tried setting it, the unit needs to be on. I would disconnect the batteries so you don't draw any load. The Colour Control unit is normally powered from the batteries, and means it still operates with no AC, also worth noting it is not required for operation of the inverter, but very useful to have is it had lots of great features.
I think you are a wonderful electrician and produce very nice quality videos... as an industrial electrician working on locomotives (and yes I realize that I am talking with the perspective of pterodactyl verses a peacock) I find that the trouble shooting is way different and yet closely related. I started on one end and worked my way to the other end looking for problems. Like the Victron issue, unplug everything and plug in the unit to mains, flip the breaker and see if it tripped any thing then. Yes/no? You know, the fault finding tree... if everything that this unit is powering is disconnected and it still trips the mains breaker and its own internal breakers then YES the unit is failed, if NO plug something back in to the unit and start the process all over moving to the next component on that line. I would wager that the batteries being in such a state of discharge are asking to be charged over the rating of the Victron unit. Remove 2 of the batteries from the parallel circuit and test again.
I do love the videos and realize the amount of time involved in their production and I do so appreciate it!! Sorry for the critique I am an old dinosaur that is sometimes quite the curmudgeon...
Hi Jordan,
Great bit of fault finding on the PV. I never think is a very good idea having any inverter in a roof space and particularly batteries due to heat in the summer. In most cases the inverter will reduce output 24:25 to try and reduce heat - just when you need it!!
As the batteries were totally flat - it may be worth disconnecting 2 out of the 3 it seems if that helps.
heat? they are designed to resist in that environment... what about your car battery in the summer?
@@Spacer-l3j If battery is designed to withstand higher temperatures that does not mean it should be used under such conditions if avoidable.
Besides that car batteries don't get discharged like solar batteries.
I had heat issues in my loft over the heatwave, it caused many problems. Even tho the equipment can be outside. The manual says to be in a protected spot. No direct sunlight, no direct rain etc.
My loft swings from 6 to 30 in a year. An the inverter reports 40+ where it then throttles.
I had a battery issue due to heat and draw, fortunately I saved the batteries by isolating them and manually charging them.
The other heat issue I had was a blown extractor fan and a circulation pump that went noisey. Next house nothing in the loft if I can avoid it.
@@davidsharp9166 hi David, as with any of this type of equipment including the batteries I was always told that it is always better to find a location that is more stable with temperatures if possible. I know it may be convenient from and installation point of view, but constant prolonged high temperatures generally takes it toll. I am certainly no professional in this particular field but I’ve had experience of these systems for over 25 years.
@@animarkzero very good point.
Here in Australia the Victron brand is very popular with people building off grid homes.Some people don’t realise your supposed to pre charge the capacitors in the inverter before turning them on.
You can put the controller and the color control from a 12V power supply as well. But the batteries still probably need to be replaced, as deeply as they are discharged.
With such a low power state, the Multiplus likely won't start charging.
I'm amazed that you aren't more aware of Victron systems. They're not only used in the marine and motorhome industries but widely used in static off-grid situations too. As those batteries were down to less than a volt they're probably terminally sulphated but an equalisation charge from the Multiplus might breathe a little life back into them. For now, charge them up with a dumb charger (no 'smart' charger will charge a 12V battery that's putting out less than around 6V) and then let the Multiplus look after them.
Loads of Solar companies went bust after the FIT payment dropped then ceased, these companies relied on getting the FIT payment to survive as far as I'm aware. I know the company that fitted mine back in 2015 went bust. I do have a warranty (not with them). I also have a Victron multiplus2 DC storage too. They're not cheap, but they are very good and can be expanded in many ways and are ideal for boating, mobile home and for being completely off grid.
Those batteries are toast, they want replacing before condemning the victron unit. The DC readings are so bad it’s obvious but you really need an impedance tester such as the hioki 3554 if you intend working with battery storage.
I’d of also tested the PV strings for low Riso with a seaward, really the first port of call fault finding solar!
You do really nice normal domestic stuff but a lot of learning to do in this area. You sounded a bit condescending of the Victron DIY crowd but trust me, they could teach you an awful lot.
Looking at the battery leads, they were linked incorrectly. A parallel system of three batteries should have the charge/ inverter leads joining from opposite ends of the battery set. Pos lead to first battery with links to pos2 and pos3, then Negative lead to 3 with links to neg2 and neg1. The resistance in the leads means the battery electrically nearest the charge/inverter gets more heavily discharged and more charged than that farthest in the line, consequently the setup reduces battery capacity and life.
Marine electronic engineer here so work with the victron a lot.
Some things to be aware of how the power is done for the display cerbo gx downstairs is fine its so it can keep its full history. Be monitored remotely for faults, state of charge tc... when the rest of the system is powered down.
In regards to the dipswitch method honestly its awful and not worth setting the units like that, best plugging into a laptop and setting up.
But as the cerbo gx is in the system and connected this can be used to set the unit up. This is where you set battery types, size, current limits etc..
So with this in the system from memory this takes priority over the dipswitch settings in the unit so with it connected changing them won't make a diffrence to how the unit behaves.
It you need to problem solve one of these best to disconnect the ac out, external control displays etc.. and just have batteries and ac in.
In regards to the batteries and the voltage the victron won't charge batteries below a certain threshold even with ac voltage present on the input. So need to charge them separately till about 10.8v before it would kick in. (Have had to do this a few times).
In regards to that current limits for the charger that doesn't mean the ac current would be that much less as depends on the ac loads.
The reason is on victron units they will still pass ac out as its present on the ac input. Using a laptop or external controller i.e. cerbox gx. you can limit the max current draw which depending on the model can be up to 100a. This is passed straight through to ac out and what ever current it needs to charge.
So this means if the inverter is 1200w in this case it actually still provide more current than what it is actually rated to this is just what the unit itself produces when in inverter mode.
Also if the victron unit finds the current draw is higher than the current limit then the unit would switch to inverter mode and draw additional required power from the batteries. So I think you said the breaker was 6 amp for the ac in?
So if this was going to a double socket and and the ac current limits was 5 amp the current draw demand on it was say 10 amp the victron would then switch to inverter mode to supply the additional 5 amps. This would potentially mean the batteries would never get charged depending on how long the demand was.
With the cerbogx you can change how the unit operates so could manually set it from the panel to charger only to top the batteries up. Unfortunately though like I said before if the batteries are to low won't do anything. I can't remember if their is something you can change to stop this would need to dig a manual out.
If you ever need help with victron our company is based in Essex so can give us a bell.
(Sorry long post 😅)
Are you sure the batteries are wired in series at 17:51 ? should be parallel supplying 12v to the Multiplus. Either way take those heavy batteries out of the roof and replace with LifePO4 as I doubt you will be able to recover the lead acid batteries if they have been flat for any length of time.
Really enjoyed your video. Very thorough and diligent as always. I like the fact you don’t pretend to know everything but instead put it out there for people who may know the answer to leave their comment. 👍
You can just see how this is all going to pan out - its going to be like cars & MOT & tax & insurance, in that if you want home insurance, you will need an MOT/EICR/Oftec/gasafe + building regulation cert. (maybe not every year for jo public, but certainly for rental properties)?
Good video but like other comments I reckon the batteries have had it. If the voltage is lower than 9v, then they are fully discharged . Like others, a 12v system sounds strange for a house install. Also not completely sure if the multiplus is on the MCs register for grid connection, victron are sorting that at the moment. You should be able to get good money for the victron kit for someone's camper van project, but these days I would go for 24 or 48v units, it cuts the cost on the cabling and the possible heat !
It's refreshing to see ACTUAL workmanship and someone who knows that they're at. Yet another amazing video. Great work and every video is thoroughly enjoyable and informative. Kudos to your work ethic Jordan - don't ever lose that 👍
Try disconnecting the batteries to test the victron! If it turns on in charger only then it still has life in it but with victron you dont wanna have the inverter on when theres already existing mains with a dead battery. Try putting it on a good battery see if you guys can revive it.
At 0.9V, the storage seems to have died from neglect, thereby causing the charger to trip. I would treat each one as a separate battery, attempting to charge with a car battery charger that self limits to 4 or 6 amps. My guess is that they are lead acid, over discharged, and will not recover. Costing your time means the complete replacement is the only economical option for a non-technical customer.
Here is your answer to the tripping Victron!
A lead acid battery that’s deeply (over) discharged is normally considered to have lost half its storage capacity! Normal discharge will see the cells at around 2 volts per cell anything much below this would be considered deeply discharged, 6 cells in each battery giving your nominal 12v but in truth 12 v is what they show when fully normally discharged. If the battery ever gets down to 11V is deep discharged and pretty badly damaged!
Yours are reading 0.9 V and are fubar!
That’s why the victron is drawing more current and tripping.
You could disconnect all bar in battery and you might even get it to recover to 11+V but it will never store even a small amount of power ever again. All the batteries need changing and then the Voctron will probably work fine.
My guess is the inverter threw the fault the Victron decided with no solar it was pointless wasting energy charging the batteries of the mains and so didn’t charge the batteries and they are now toast
They don’t look like lead batteries to me at a first glance, unless this is supposed to be a 6V system.
It must get pretty hot up there in the summer. Not a great place for the batteries and those electronic components, right?
5:39 - I'm going to stick my neck out here and say this is a power factor correction device. I'm not a solar installer, but an electronic engineer. This would be used to correct the power factor (the ratio between real power in kilowatts and apparent power in kva caused by distortion of the sine wave) an uncorrected system imposes a greater load on the utility and lower efficiency as more current is needed to transfer the same amount of power.
In this case, the toroidal 'transformer' would actually be an inductor and the other components would be capacitors and inductors too.
Hi Jason…..yep batteries discharged below default setting on the controller…..so disconnect batteries and charge em up old school, or replace, fire up 12v controller and check setup is correct to suit batteries type.
Victoron gear is probably ok, once controller is back to normal, think some folks on same path😅
Excellent video showing what happens when these systems fail & the problems & cost trying to getting them up an running again. Industry standards need to be put into place so that when these companies go conveniently bust that a company like yours can come in and can more easily fix the problem. We have the same problem in the US with systems installed poorly & companies like Solindra, making tons of money on promises & then disappearing!
Yes worth considering items failing especially out of warranty, most of the cowboy solar companies won't be here in 5 years so you need to have a few options in case of problems and also to consider this into your costs when buying the system
Good job, did the manual get you to test inverter with each battery bank seperately?
you need to program the Victron's dip switches while it has power supplied but power switch in off position.
You tried to program it then you pressed the reset button.
Reset the unit first then program it then power it up.
Could you connect a couple of MC4 Y connectors and just use one set of Inverter connectors? This connection method seems common with SolarEdge Inverters with one set of MC4 terminals.
There's probably nothing wrong with the Victron, it's just the batteries gone dead... Victron has protection build-in to prevent internal battery short circuit frying the inverter.
This is the biggest issue with "investing in the local business". Been burned one too many times where I do just that...sometimes at a slight premium vs some of the more bigger established players only to find the smaller guys have gone bust leaving me with a bigger issue to resolve/replace.
Catch-22 really
Are there any industry member organisations they could join that take over their warranty obligations in the event they liquidate?
Also, not sure about the UK, but in NZ the consumer gets to choose who to deal with on issues surrounding durability, well beyond any explicit warranty - you can go to the local importer/distributor or even manufacturer if they have a presence. And that will cover incidental costs too, such as labour, where the equipment has proven to not be reasonably durable.
16:30 Why not just fit a diode in series with each string and parallel both strings (old school)?
So i do marine electrical and victron is an industry standard for me. Its very hard to wreck victrons but its possible had a customer just recently who wanted to fit a large alternator to feed the lithium and wrecked their mppt.
I appreciate your video and it highlights the issue with solar installations around the country (i.e. after service install issues). However given that most solar installers are start ups or joe bloggs limited companies it's impossible to know who will stay the course of time and survive after 5-10 years (bar the likes of Project Solar etc). I'm in the midst of evaluating a solar panel installation but the issue of post install service seems to be next to impossible to guarantee. Any tips from anyone would be greatly appreciated
I've work for Project Solar for over 10 years now, we are the biggest and most experienced in the UK market. We are well financed, financially secure and growing. There's are lot of interesting products and developments happening across our group of companies currently.
A good tip would be to spend half an hour reading the Trustpilot reviews for that company you mention, then find a local, well established installer (5 years minimum) and get some references. Don't just take the cheapest quote, research the materials you are being offered.
@@sundog3944 Thank you, good advise spending half an hour reading the reviews on Project Solar, currently 3621 on trustpilot, rated excellent 4.3. But not sure about the advice on local companies though, too many going pop at the moment, hence the OP question, some taking customer's deposit money, and 5 years is just too short.
So dead batteries. Anything below 10v and they're toast. A lot of outlay for 1000 watts of power. It will cost thousands to update that with a new battery, inverter etc. Is it worth it?
As it is an old system, the chances are that with the correct transfer paperwork the system is collecting very high feed in payments and will do so for another 10 years or so. This combined with the current cost of energy makes it well worth fixing.
The Cerbo and Victron are great pieces of kit, and the install is, in theory, working, but the design is wrong. Using excess solar to feed the Multiplus is fine, and the MP will adapt the charge to available excess.
During night, the MP can act in reverse, keeping the grid net to zero. (backfeeding) from the batteries.
Major issue in this case is using lead-acid for cycle usage: you will kill them soon. And if the MP has no way of measuring the SOC (either BMV or Lynx) it can't see sh*t, nor can it keep the batteries to get too low in charge.
This would work fine with lifepo4, but 12V is uncommon (most setups are 48V). Also, the MP compact is not within regulations for backfeeding.
You need the MP II (double grid disconnect), but certification for UK is currently pending.
For all Victron gear: Get the MK3 USB to fully configure/monitor the Victron.
In your case: The CCGX can be connected to ethernet so you can configure the MP using the Victron VRM portal.
i couldn't agree more, if that was my system i would make 48v Lifpo4, MP11, MPPT, all victron apart from the batterys, and run the whole house when the MP11 get there ENA or use a quattro that is ENA appovered now.
A lot of initial installers popped up when the government was handing out solar grants all over the place with very little oversight, so you had dodgy electricians who weren't doing any training about the systems just trying to chuck any system they could get their hands on in to as many places as possible then disappear before any problems started showing up.
*A lot of initial installers popped up when the government was handing out solar grants all over the place*
Victon is really good as it can be used as. Full house uninterrupted power supply in case of grid power failure just like the Tesla powerwall
Now that you're in the solar installation business, what's the timeline for your company folding?
Mentally adding up total past/present costs; probably cheaper to use full price grid power!
The batteries are in a state of deep discharge and possibly faulty. The Victron multiplus will not charge a faulty battery and will activate its protection.
The way the battery bank is currently connected is wrong, in it's current configuration it will lead to uneven charging of the parallel bank and eventually failure. Both charging/supply cables are connected to the first battery. The correct way is to leave the +ve cable connected to the first battery but the -ve cable must be connected to -ve post of the third battery. This will ensure an even charge off all three batteries.
Battery health should have been checked before attempting to charge them, impedance/conductance test with a proper battery tester should have been carried out to see if they are still in spec. Batteries are dangerous and can explode.
I like Victron their kit is modular, I have seen them supplying factories in countries that have unstable grids prone to frequent load shedding, as well as off-grid homes and resorts. Technical support is pretty good as well.
Enjoy your videos.
Back in the day, when the government introduced the feed in tariff system, there was a huge surge in demand for solar installs. Loads of companies sprang up to to service the demand. years later the FIT system was cut back and eventually ended, the demand slumped and many of those companies folded because there wasn't enough business for all of them. I had solar panels put in in 2011 which was around peak demand. The company that put them in folded around 2018. Mine have "hung in there" and are still going, but if they ever pack up I'll have to find someone to sort them.
I enjoyed this video. I would be really interested in a follow-up video when you replace the system with a hybrid.
I have been using a Hybrid invert with batteries for about a year now, and I’ve been impressed with how they work, As they essentially become energy management systems for your home.
Odyssey batteries are lead acid... by the looks of those they've been in for a fair while, too. I'd replace them for a lithium setup instead and it should just fire right up. Hybrid dc coupled inverter is definitely the way to go though. Less losses changing dc to ac & back to dc again to store in the batteries
Lead acid will get munched by a storage system, my old batteries, had I actually bought them instead of salvaging them, worked out at 20 pence per kWh cycled through the pack (price divided by (kWh capacity * cycle life)). Pylontech is more like 6p/kWh, DIY LiFePO4 2 or 3p.
I remember being interested in getting into working on solar installations back before the feed in tariff boom. Solar installers were hard to find. Then suddenly as the 42p feed in tariffs arrived, the internet was awash with solar installer websites, all claiming to be experts....I joined one of the better ones, but the regs were still shaking down for this "new" tech. Suddenly the bonanza was over and most of the companies disappeared as fast as the arrived... the upshot was a legacy of very poor quality solar installs, many no longer functional, and no back up for the customers. A lot of wasted equipment and money...not very green....Seeing your quality of work is encouraging, but sadly there are still many awful installs and lack of maintenance, particularly on new builds where the developers are just ticking the green boxes to get their plans approved.
All moved on to heat pumps.
I can feel the pain of visiting bust companies installs and fault finding. Also dealing with equipment that you've not installed yourself is challenging.
I had to make two visits to a hybrid system get it online and attempt to charge the batteries to finally find out the batteries are not discharging. Left unsure if the fault was with the inverter (hybrid, pv was working), BMS or meter (coincidentally the same type of meter as the one in this vid) and did not have much help form the manufacturer. Considering the system is from 2017 and out of warranty do I attempt to look into the issues further and replace components until I fix the system or suggest a replacement hybrid and battery system. Obviously replace the inverter and start over.
Lots of Victron fans here have are being a bit precious, yes they are very adaptable but pretty involved if you are used to standard PV and ESS inverters. Even decent manufacturers inverters go bad and its can be time consuming to find the issues.
It's interesting seeing that bank of Odyssey batteries - I replaced the lead acid battery on my old 1995 BMW Motorbike with an Odyssey battery - didn't realise (obvious really) that they do larger units!
Im just reading some of the comments, and there are words that pop up like 'conveniently'. Why is it an automatic assumption that companies go bust on purpose? In fact, there probably aren't any of the original solar install companies around anymore due to the arse falling out the solar market years ago due to the feeding tariff changes. If their whole business model was based on solar, then the changes would have been devastating to them.
That's why it is important not to put your eggs all in one basket. You never know what is around the corner. IMO.
Another good video👍🏻
That supply is a looped service from a neighbour . The panels will feed back to that property. How do you stop that occurring?
Hi Jorden. You should connect the negative cable of the victron inverter to te last battery and not to the first one as it is now. Now the cables to the first battery are shorter than the last one, so for the last battery the resitance is higher, therefore is battery will give less power than the first one. So connect the positive (RED) cable to the first battery en de nagetive (Black) to the last. Make shure that all the jumper wires are exectly the same length. Also, because the battery are completly dead now, you may have te charge them first one by one so the charge currect will stay lower. Maybe is easier to do this with a external battery charger.
Recon one or more of the batteries have a dead short in it. Just try a known good 12V car battery on it and see if it works then.
If the only place to site the equipment is in the loft space, then an insulated enclosure ought to be constructed to mitigate the annual temperature gradients you can expect. Also a far easier cleaner workspace, rather than breathing insulation particles and dust. Make it a compartment designed for regular access rather than Christmas decorations attitude.
i have done solar system myself with batteries and it works like a charm, how can someone mess this up is beyond me
There's an inordinate number of sense, sample and correct loops in this instance. I'm a tech, albeit in another branch of electronics, but pwr supply circuits are very similar across many areas of electrics/electronics. The first thing I'd need is a schematic to understand what's going on.
The batteries failed due to the high temperatures in the roof. Temperature has a huge effect on lead acid batteries. Hope you replace it with LiPo.
The batt system is AC connected and will only charge if there is overproduction. If the PV inverter didn’t work the batteries got drained and died. The Victon is prob still oké. You could connect the two strings as a poly-string on one mppt
tracker. The max string current Will be exceeded, but this wont matter because of the east-west oriëntation of the PV-modules.
You can tell the batteries are swollen some on the sides. Bad batteries for sure. Those Odyssey PC1800 units are about 7KWh of capacity with the three of them, however because they are AGM you should never use more than 50% so its about 3-3.5KWh worth of capacity. My guess is the Victron unit is good, but because of the bad batteries, it causing the problems.
Matt:e devices like that PV+ is designed (as you read out) with Open-PEN-like functions to watch for overvoltage. The autotransformer within it is designed to lift the voltage from the PV generation (the opposite of an optimiser). The theory is that when the inverter output from the PV is lacking or fading to a non-production/shutdown-state, the matt:e output is exaggerating the voltage and therefore able to feed into the system for slightly longer than if the voltage was left as stock. The isolator switch providing a convenient function that might have used up that space with something one way or another. Snake-oil? Perhaps that depends on how light levels improve with hotter summers and dryer winters. Thought to add words about this feature here in case you thought you were missing a trick. Much depends on what price they go for and what functions already exist in the hybrid inverter that has been selected and whether you get your isolators from a top-tier £xxx vendor or a more generic brand.
I was told never to install solar, batteries etc in the roof space, and looking at that loft space it is very damaged and the whole loft area looks like it's been a botch job, as that brick work, the shoddy insulation, and the cement, panels is horrific, as not even the labelling has been inked with certification date, codes.
Agree with some other comments, depending on the type of battery there is a minimum voltage that it should go to before its knackered and will present a resistance short
My inverter is an Omnik and apparently they went out of business but the display on that device looks just like the display on your customer's inverter. Now I'm not an expert but I've seen Will Prowse often talking about battery setups and he seems to always charge the batteries before first use. I'm curious why the Victron is not able to deal with charging at a low current.
If the batteries are down that low, chances are they are toast, and the 'charger' won't be able to recover them no matter what the settings are. If you can get even one healthy 12V battery even just temporarily connected, that should prove the Victron unit.
Very interesting just passed my EESS course and fitting my first inverter. Any recommendations for further reading?
I am getting the heebie jeebies over the main RCD panel. Rats nest of wiring. Had I done that with my old colleague signing off he would have given me an earful. I was taught to do straight cable porn setups. Easier to view and fault find.
Please , what was the voltage output from the large transformer in the downstairs pv isolator .
Appreciate the shoutout! Cheers guys.
So, you didn't entirely wreck the electric van? It's nice to know that it can still be used for some nearby tasks. ♥️
🙊
Hie jordan the vitron is tripping because the batteries cells are dead. Thats the only issue there. You're having soo little voltage on the batteries
Looks like the victron setup is missing fuses, a BMS and a shunt on the batteries.
Most victron kit will not work without batteries, and id would suspect this also means totaly dead battries like these.
Just add a victron MPPT and some new lifepo4 batteries with a shunt and proper BMS for a DC coupled hybrid system all controled by the colour GX. Program to charge frol solar and off peak tarrif and use / grid export during peak rates and it should pay for itself in no time.
It's the usual way to connect the CCGX (or any other GX device) to the battery. The battery is normally always providing enough power for the controller even is the battery is "empty" i.e. 75 or 80% of full capacity if it is a lead-acid battery.
If it went totally empty then something weird happened as the CCGX and the MultiPlus should have both prevented the inverter to provide AC
If you’re using the Victron smart bus bar like a lot of newer installs do then that has a 12v output that you can use to power the GX
To me the transformer at 5:17 is an insulation transformer that separates the grid from the solar system so that the neutral/phase to the solar system is "floating" as well as avoiding DC current going out on the electric grid. Basically an added safety feature.
what you mean an isolation transforemer
@@groundfaultbob basically a 1:1 transformer
It is an autotransformer from matt:e (PV+). Designed to boost voltage to evade the overall PV output from shutting down quite so quickly as it otherwise would. It is a voltage optimiser with a protection function as Artisan indicates. But the protection is a secondary function to the voltage boost. If I didn't know the product then I'd still have made a different assessment. Without semiconductor assistance to punt the 50Hz to 400Hz+ (as per MasterVolt Mass GI 3.5/7.0) then the transformer would be a lot weightier for 240V 16A that that leg is servicing through.
It's not a transformer. 1 wire in and 1 out is a big inductor. Band aid to avoid undersized inverter tripping with high inrush inductive load like a pump?
@@Not_Sure-i6o I see now that there are three wires and not four, but that could mean that it's a normalizing transformer where the PV system is designed for 230V nominal voltage while the UK electrical system is 240V nominal voltage. Most of Europe runs 230V nominal voltage.
Hi Jordan you might remember me from emails regarding cable and advise for a Hypervolt charger, I’m the auto electrician. Obviously I deal with DC voltage on cars so I’m not sure about solar and the DC batteries but car battery chargers these days are a bit more sophisticated than before and I’m wondering if the AC charger is similar. When charging a car battery with a good quality charger, if the battery voltage is lower than 2V there is usually a button that needs to be pressed to tell the charger that there is a battery connected and that you have connected it correctly (+ -). If the battery is lower than 2V and you just connected it to charge it does just switch off. I’m not saying this is the problem in your case but it may be worth checking. 👍👍
It would be useful if the original installer could leave a wiring diagram with the homeowner to make any subsequent fault finding easier.
Or for the OEM supplier to provide a schematic(s) for suggested hook-ups.
Generally batteries are under discharged you can recover them but you need specialist charges or with some battery technologies. You need to replace them for safety reasons to the inverter probably just will not work just to ensure safety
My OCD was having a fit when the spare breaker got turned off... I can't stand finding boards with spares not left on, it makes quick visual identification of a tripped circuit painful.
Re the batteries... wouldn't you disconnect them and test them on their own?
Seems most electricians are brought up on AC so have very little knowledge of low voltage DC - either way condemning the Victron due to the lead acid battery bank being at 0.9V is a schoolboy error 🤦♂️ Disconnect and test the Victron with a car battery if nothing else 🙄
Was the vicktron properly configured to periodically equalise lead acid?
Or is that not a thing with AGM and they just need replacing every two years?
Thanks for another interesting video. What type of battery chemistry? I might have missed something but was the charger in a catch 22 situation? Needed to be on to have the DIP switch save setting stick, but couldn't stay on due to tripping?
Looks like the batteries connected in series have their +ve and -ve takeoffs both from the same end battery. Best practice is to take +ve from one end of the battery "string" and -ve from the other end. Otherwise the connecting cable voltage drop will mean the batteries aren't balanced.
Many of the solar install companies went bust due to the way the (Tory) Government handled the FIT rate changes, repeatedly cutting them by massive amounts. This caused big booms (where everyone wanted to get their system installed before the rate dropped), followed by big busts (where the companies that had recruited lots of staff to do the installs suddenly had much less work for them).
The FIT was supposed to seed the industry, but actually ended up doing the exact opposite.
Is it because the batteries are flat and if you recharge them individually?..it won't exceed the current?
Just look the inverter pcb had the same problem on my pv inverter just a dry solder joint very easy fix
I would also say, you have some EMC noise somewhere on the loft
carry the mk3 and laptop and just plug into the inverter directly, being able to export the config, fix the config (who knows if it was programmed correctly) and upgrade firmware is helpful. dip switches are for last ditch effort only. nothing wrong with Victron.
Good advice at the end, but who knows the future. Some big installers just vanished from the game, mine did! Fortunately I’ve not had a problem yet, but I’m sure that day will come!
That looks like an autotransformer. Maybe stepping up or down the AC voltage.
Those battries ar a bust. i dont think the vicrton will die verry easy. change the battries. that looks like a 600A bank if that is a 200A per battry.
Hi Jordan
I have seen on Friday ELEX tool show in Alexandra Place.
Didn’t get a chance to talk as you were busy 😊
Completely agree with the sentiment, 26 years in the UK Solar industry, done thousands of installations, seen lots of cowboys come and go, buy cheap, buy twice.
Jordan fair play how impressive your knowledge on solar has already become 🤜
The Victron just won't like the batteries that are destroyed. It's not worth replacing the Victron Multiplus for a hybrid inverter though, it's a far better BMS.
I love you watching work but I still can't understand why you still touch transformers with your bear fingers like in 5:24 without at least testing it for voltage with a voltage detector pen! Anyway thank you very much for all your sharing of knowledge! Cheers and stay safe guys !
Boat systems are typically 12V with an inverter used to produce 240VAC for "normal" domestic appliances. The batteries are usually charged from the engine and/or solar. So, the system is 12V and everything, including the Color Controller, is wired into 12V. When moored in a marina, it is very antisocial to run your engine to charge the batteries so the MultiPlus does two things. It feeds 240VAC directly to the AC devices and charges the batteries, usually from a 16A supply. It is also quite common (and highly desirable) to isolate the incoming earth from the boat's earth and this is done with a galvanic isolator or, better still, an isolation transformer. On a boat plugged into the mains, the MulpiPlus acts as a big uninterruptible power supply and will switch the 240VAC to the batteries via the inverter if the mains goes. It is also quite clever and can assist the incoming mains if more than 16A is required.