It took me a few minutes to realize you're addressing HEADSTOCK leveling ( or could be "paralleling" to the ways) and not Tailstock aligning. I guess we all need to start there before doing any other alignment steps. As soon as I reassemble my 1950 Atlas QC-42 I can work on doing this! Thank you!
I ran a largish Lansing 9.25'' spindle bore lathe years ago that would never cut straight and I was constantly adjusting the tailstock on longer parts... turns out that that it had a nice system to align the head stock fore and aft but all the bolts that hold down the headstock and the adjusters were loose!!!! Got it all aligned and tightened down, made a drastic difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As always another fantastic video. Joe you are gifted when it comes to your presentations, I'm a retired machinist and still can't get it out of my system so I resort to watching it on TH-cam. Thank you!
Hey Joe looking good in that shirt my friend 😉. I'm still a very big fan of your channel. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge through out the years.....👍👍👍
You!! Are the man!! My garage floor under My 14/40 lathe has settled I think. This is the technique I will use to get my lathe running true like it used to. The majority of the time, when someone watches me operate my mill and lathe they see your techniques, setups, jigs, etc.
Joe's explanation was very clear, 1 indicator zeroed on top of the work piece, that work piece is then removed along with the chuck, then a collet chuck is installed with a dowel pin of the same dia. of the work piece then you use your indicator on the top of the dowel pin to take a reading, if there is a difference then you should adjust the bed of the lath up or down depending on the reading on your indicator.
That is a great idea. I bought one of those MT-5 headstock alignment tools. I think I paid $200 for it.It also has a center on the end,to align the tailstock.Yes…. I only used it once.🤣🤣🤣.Still, I consider it money well spent.Glad to see you are back.It’s been a few weeks. I missed those model builds.Not so much for the model itself but,for the ingenious setups you use to build them. I recently built a Tiny Power, Ajax horizontal steam engine. I used several of your setup techniques to build it. I am very happy with the results and,your contribution.
Hi Joe, Good to see you back - I hope that you are fully recovered. Now, a question : would a piece of silver steel - drill rod - do the same thing ? Check it for concentricity adjacent to chuck, or collet, and again at the outer end, and adjust to run true - that should give you the true axis of the headstock spindle. Check the top, and front, with a dial indicator, as you recommend . . . . A discrepancy of reading, which varies linearly along the length of the bar indicates an alignment problem in the horizontal, or vertical plane, and a non-linear variation may indicate wear on the lathe bed ways . . . . Not quite as good as a test bar, but maybe good enough for a small machine ? Kind regards, Steve A.
Another aspect I’ve yet to consider. I spent considerable time leveling my ways. Then I turned the bar bell shaped material and measured both ends for consistency. I adjusted the ways until everything cut straight and repeated. Did this last year and I don’t use my lathe but about once a week on average. Goes without saying the damned thing is so far out now. I can still manage decent work for what I’m needing. Just can’t keep up with perfection as much as I’d like. The settling that takes place in my area is surely a problem.
Settling has nothing to do with it, you could hang the lathe upside down and it doesn't make any difference, as long as the headstock is aligned with the tailstock and parallel to the ways
@@andyb7963 True but the twist in the ways, if any, must be corrected for the lathe to machine straight without taper. My Jet 12x36 had a slight twist in the ways. I had to anchor one of the tailstock legs to the concrete to gently apply enough pressure to the other side to remove it. A precision level was necessary for this adjustment.
Joe, your method is much like the one I have used (only I work with a plug in the mandrel-taper rather than with a piece of stock in a collet). I'd suggest one variation: if you indicate the piece in the collet (or the mandrel-plug) first, turning it true if need be, and THEN put the chuck on with the long piece of stock, you don't need a second indicator. The same routine, but indicating at the front or back of the stock, works for getting the axis parallel to the ways as seen from above, too.
About from above view. How do you get around not being able to move the indicator up and down to find the high spot of the round plug or round stock? I began to wonder if this technique could be used for both adjustments, before this video was over.
It's been a long time since I've had to think about this and just realized that if you turn some length of stock then check for a taper, this works well for the above view. But I still would like to know the solution.
I need to do this on a used lathe I recently added to my shop. I got it leveled, but it appears to be slightly off, I suspect side to side. Fortunately I followed your logic and will try this way first. I think I have a piece of 3/4" ground stock several inches long which in theory should allow both measurements with one test rod, assuming it turns concentric. We will see. Glad to see you back in the saddle.
Mixa Sid Just curious, do you have your subscriber visibility turned off? I get a lot of comments from people that believe they are subscribed that don't show up.
The arbor you mention in the beginning, can be bought from China. Are they good? At 1/5 the price of a Western made version. I am suspicious. However your trick here is brilliant. I can't put words too how much you impress me over and over again!
Interesting trick. I've always used the technique that Harold Hall described in his book. That consists of taking a heavy piece of stock at the chuck, say 3-in diameter 8-in long, and then, without supporting the tail, turn it to a diameter. Any taper indicates headstock misalignment across the ways (X direction). Misalignment in the vertical direction (Y) will cause more non-cylindrical complicated shapes, but this technique measures the Y misalignment more directly and makes a nice compliment.
Welcome back. hope you are well. i havent done much lathe work due to the machine turning the unintended taper(towards the chuck) levelling didnt help much though i suspect its the wood beam(about 1" thick) mounted on the steel frame on floor. ive also been told it could be the headstock is flexing towards operator side of stand thus turning taper towards chuck. was planning to reinstall mc on reinforced straightened steel surface and take it from there
Yes, git them woods outta machineshop! Polished concrete, marble or steel is the way to go for machine bases or surfaces that a machine sits on, be it a 50kg lathe or a mill or a 3 ton one or a 10 ton one... If the foundation has shitty compression properties and cant bear the weight with a constant deformation, you are gonna have some problems, wood as a machine base is a terror, as it soaks oils, gets puffy, gets squeezed and crushed on other places, breathes and changes moisture content constantly and again moves because of it... No piece of wood is good, be it an inch or a wood slab 20 inches thick, the thicker the worse even, as wood unlike modern steel or concrete might have cysts within it which are hard as fuck or soft as turds and can additionally screw up the predictability of the material deformation... Get a scrap flat 1 or 2 inch plate of steel and use that... You can even have it surface ground for relatively cheap, just have them make it parallel, which can be done in a few passes and a single flip... Any decent machinist will be ashamed to charge you for it, but will regardless, but not much if they are not a cunt... Just dont bring a rusty piece of shit, wire wheel it first or douse it with acid and wash it off and lightly oil it before you bring it in, or you will be told to piss off, you and your rusty slab... Such a plate will make for a predictable machine base and you can measure the parallelism of it, it dont really matter if you use shims either way or have leveling feet for her... The few tenths off from the sgrinder will be better than any wood after a rainy day... Cheers and all the best luck!
I had a similar issue with a used lathe I had just bought. I was getting about .005" of taper on diameter over about 6". I figured out that the bed of the lathe ran the whole length of the lathe and the headstock was actually clamped to it. It was not keyed or pinned in any way. There were 4 big bolts that did the clamping and adjustment sctews that allowed the headstock to be moved when the big bolts were cracked loose. As a means to measure the non parallelism, I clamped a bar of 1.5" dia aluminum in the chuck and took a cut the full length. Using an indicator attached to the cross slide, I swept it along the back side of the bar. This showed 2X the taper. It was then a simple matter of making an adjustment and then taking another cut and measure. Using this technique, I was able to get the indicated taper under .0005 over 12". I was happy with it at this point. My issue was what I will call in/out misalignment. Your video was talking about up/down misalignment. It seems to me this technique would work just as well with up/down misalignment. The trick would be that the cut would have to take place on the bottom of the workpiece and the taper would then have to be measured on the top. I guess the tricky part would be advancing the tool into the workpiece for each successive cut.
Joe, I’m confused as to WHERE I mount my indicator (base) is it on the carriage or on the ways? This is probably a dumb question, but, I’m a real amateur (newbie) at this. I really would like to learn how to verify my head stock is true. Thank. Rex Myers
Thanks, Joe. Great video. Am I correct in that this only checks for up and down discrepancy and not necessarily left / right? It seems like the centerline of the spindle could be parallel with the bed while also pointing to the left of right of the tailstock. I have an import 12-36 and I don't yet have a collet set up. I put a piece of 1" steel round, about 15" long in my 3-jaw with about 3" in and 12" sticking out. Then I kept adjusting my tailstock left and right until I removed any taper in the part, down to .001 over 12"; I can't seem to get that last thou out consistently. That's where I'm currently at with it. I plan to cut the unturned portion off so I have about 12" of straight part. I planned changing over the 4-jaw, indicate the part in and then just use a toolpost mounted indicator to see which way the part is pointed. In the likely chance adjustment is made, I'll have to start over again with the tailstock. Would love your thoughts if you happen to see this. Thanks.
Correct. The front to rear alignment in relation to the tail stock should be checked between centers or after a between center cut. Adjust the tailstock. If there is an unsupported angular error, you have bigger issues at hand.
I’m very new at machining; working on my first lathe. Why not use a gauge pin in the first operation just as you did in the second? I enjoy your videos. Thanks.
When using a 3 Jaw chuck and a pin, your pin won't be exactly in the rotational center of your lathe because of inaccuracy in the chuck. But a turned piece always is in the center axis of rotation. The collet chuck is more accurate so it doesn't have that problem.
So having just taken delivery of my new 14 x 40 lathe, I’ve added 6 levelling feet (4 under headstock & 2 under the tailstock end. I’ve used my Starrett machinists level and got it perfect side to side under the chuck and at tailstock end & in the middle. I put the level lengthways on the cross slide & got dead level end to end. However if I put the 3 way blocks and Starrett level on the ways lengthwise rather than on the cross slide, I get a slight slope to tailstock end, so it would seem my cross slide and the ways might be a fraction high on the tailstock side perhaps. Figured that can’t hurt any & will just help coolant flow to the drain / sump in the tailstock end if anything. So my new Edge technology tailstock alignment bar arrived and I’ve mounted it between dead centres & tested each end at the side of the precision ground ends with runout dial calliper. I get 0.02mm at the tailstock end which is 2/3rds of one thousandth of an inch. Probably not worth chasing that final 2/3rds of 1/1000th inch by trying to adjust the tailstock sideways such a small amount. After watching this video last night, I realise that I also needed to test the height also at each end of the edge technology alignment bar - which I have done this morning and I am 0.2mm (8/1000ths) high at tailstock end.🤷♂️ Does this maybe mean that the two inboard levelling feet under the headstock end (the ones closest to tailstock end of the 4 under headstock) need to lower slightly to bring the centerline of the spindle down at the tailstock end by 8/1000ths (0.2mm) at 1 foot end of the test bar? 🤷♂️ I’d like to “get this right” if I can. The “factory test sheet” that came in the owners manual says:- “Difference in centre height between headstock & tailstock (tailstock upward) tested at 0.06mm (2 thou) & the “tolerance” is 0.08mm (3 thou). So it seems at 0.2mm / 8 thousandths I’m high compared to factory testing & “allowable tolerance” (.08 / 3 thou) maybe. 🤷♂️ I’ve heard that manufacturers deliberately set tailstock height a fraction high when new so that over time as it slides back and forth it “beds in / wears down slightly and eventually comes to even height with headstock height. When machining all the tool pressure is from the side & I’m within .02mm (2/3rds of a thou) - so I can’t see chasing the 0.2mm height difference at tailstock end is worth the effort? Please feel free to correct me on this because I’m completely new to this from a wood butchering background & this is my first ever metal lathe so I’m totally “feeling my way” as I try to get this set up correctly. Many thanks in advance.
@@joepie221 Yes... And it's a common sense one too.. I'm not a machinist....I like fucking around with antique belt driven machine tools... I'm an electrician by trade... 🇬🇧🙂
I work in the maintenance department where I work; and we have a selection of “test bars” when we install a new lathe or checking the alignment of the unit. This is why we lug down our lathes, so that we can pull down a point if needed. A majority of my new employees think it is a waste of time. Thinking that this unit weighs in at thousands of pounds and that gravity will settle it down. That is not the case.
Setting up the stock in your chuck so that the distance from pin in chuck to pin in collet is the same as the bolt centers on the headstock would auto-calculate the shims needed for alignment.
Industry standards specifications can be hard to track down, this is for tailstock center height, 005" above center for engine lathes. .002" above center toolroom lathes. Spindle taper run out engine lathes .0005" that one is in DSG lathe manual also. Spindle run out toolroom lathes .0002" but Hardinge and Monarch both under .00005" Most interesting spec is this one, facing 5"" disk .0002" to .0003" concave, toolroom lathe, that critically important for sealing high pressure interfaces in nuclear as well as hydraulics. the slight concave can be quickly flattened by lapping if needed. Facing convex is bad for every application. I bought a small but heavy pattern gearhead lathe that had been lagged and grouted to a floor that likely settled in 8 decades and it put a twist in the bed. It has taken more than a year for it to level itself out on its own because my floor is not good enough to re-lag it and pull it true. great video!
I have a 1220 import, so precision tends to be subjective. I chucked up the biggest diameter material I could and faced it, making sure to lock down the carriage. Then I reversed the direction of the spindle at center and continued the cut across to close to the edge. If more material was cut, the head is pointed to the front 1/2 the amount. Then I set up an indicator, unlock the carriage and touch off while watching the dial. Any deviation from 0 before touching means it’s pointed to the rear. Of course being an import, it’s wise to check that the crossfeed is perpendicular to the chuck. That’s more critical for facing operations than anything and a lot more expensive to anything about.
Its wise to bias your machine in the area where you do most of your work. Facing off a 1" bar won't demonstrate the same amount of error as turning an extended length, but both conditions should be dialed in at the same time or something is very wrong. Keep in mind a cross slide that is not perpendicular to the ways will produce the cymbol face cut you described.
Simply face a fairly diameter piece of stock to the center then run an indicator across the face. This will tell you if the face is flat, dished, or cone shaped.
I actually have an old lathe that is worn such that an indicator mounted to the saddle and indicating on the flat ts way drops .030 near the chuck from say 8" to the right. I do have a better bed to install but that will require quite a bit of labor that I' don't have time for right now.
I chuck a 12" long 3" diameter thin wall aluminum tube into my 4jaw and turn it round (un-supported) with a shearing tool. A shearing tool applies almost no pressure through the axis. I can then rotate the head until I have no taper. Once the tube has no taper, I can verify there is no tilt. A tube like this will not sag. I have a second tube that is plugged at either end so it can be turned between centers for checking tailstock alignment. The middle both tubes it are undercut so I only have to turn the outer 1" or so. I use 2 tubes since the plugged tube will probably sag a bit when un-supported.
Joshua, look at my comment and see if it works for you. Using 2 opposing indicators means the tube or shaft does not need to be straight or even machined true.
Great to see your ole mug back on the tube, and hope the foot surgery is recovering at a fast pass. Diving seasons is just around the corner (@@)!. your ole friend Bear. PS. Brisket will be awaiting when you can come our way,,,:)> Bear and Bride . And thx for the alignment tip too :)>..
Lathe doesn't have to be leveled -you can put it at 45° if you want . What it needs to be is parallel. Ways need to be parallel with each other and with central axis of the machine.
Agree, I used to be a naval / marine engineer. I have been working on a lathe in the engine room workshop during heavy seas. Pitching and rolling, that lathe was never level former than a fraction of a second. Not a problem as longs as the lathe has sufficient rigidity and the ways are parallel with each other and with the central axis of the lathe as you mention.
Nice method. Need to try, except I don't have a collette with small enough run-out. I think this should work when turning same diameter into start and end of the bar and then indicating the height. Spent today few hours with my lathe trying to figure out what is wrong and how could I fix it. There are just too many problems, so it is hard to figure out, but probably headstock misalignment is one of them. Precision level indicates that rails are lower at the middle and the front rail is lower than back rail. If the lathe is leveled with the carriage in the middle, bubble runs on corresponding end in each end. Also in sideways direction, it runs on the back side. I have made alignment bar from precision ground 35mm axel by drilling centers in each end on steady rest. Runout is about 1um, which I find to be perfect, since I indicate the bar when running my lathe in low speeds and reading average. It makes it easy to align tailstock sideways, but vertical alignment behaves weirdly. With indicator touching the bar at the center of cross-slide, two thirds from the tailstock seems to be constant distance, but closer to the chuck, distance increases 0.01mm, when it should drop since rails turn up. Then when i turn the indicator on either side, about 10cm from the center of cross-slide, distance stays the same on entire travel length. That 0.01mm doesn't sound bad, but I can get severe tapers with parts mounted directly to the church, especially very close to jaws. It can be something like 0.03mm in 2cm distance with a tool that is perfectly center. Any similar experience would be helpful. My work continues, since this is really starting to bug me.
@@joepie221 It is HBM 250x550, meaning work length is 550mm, max diameter 250 mm and weight 125kg. It's not minilathe, but not real lathe either. I have pretty solid steel table with 20mm thick and 25cm wide steel plate bolted to the lathe bottom. I kind of scraped it with angle grinder to match the lathe. Directly under the bolts, I have two 95x8mm CrMo tubes supporting most of the weight. They are standing on adjustable pads on the floor. Also, In each end of the base plate, I have 5mm thick square tubing which have their own legs to the floor. I can easily adjust the twist, since the bolts are on working height. I played a while with headstock alignment using 45mm chrome plated and grinded CrMo bar with pieces of 50x5 aluminium pipes added to the ends. Then I don't have to destroy the stock and I can machine aluminium with less force. As far as I know, the headstock is not adjustable, so it has to be done with twist. With 30cm bar, my alignment was off about 0.015mm (0.0006"), which was good, considering what kind of errors I get. I was able to adjust it into 0 by twisting the table, but then the rails got more out of level. However, the first half if the lathe is now better and the tight spot in the middle moved close to the end of the lathe. When turning closer to the chuck and with materials which require some cutting forces, I get worse precision than before. Probably I have more clearance on rails, but I can't tighten them or I'll get stuck at the end.
Hi joe! I love your clever tricks and hope you can also help me out with one. I need to turn a long hex schaft between centers on my lathe but the hex shaft wont fit through my spindle. How do I accurately drill the centre holes?
Use a ring called a 'Cats Head'. Its just a piece of round pipe your hex stock can fit through. Drill 3 tapped holes in it at 120 degree spacing and use that for support in a steady rest.
@@joepie221 Thanks! It's a lifetime-dream tool that I could only manage now that I'm retired. My Dad was a master machinist, came up the old-school apprenticeship route, ended up as a foreman in the experimental machine shop for Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT. He started out machining repair parts for water-powered (line shaft) fabric-weaving machines, ended up running operations like electro-chemical machining of (I think) 10-20mil, spiraling cooling holes down the length of turbine blades for jet engines, made from exotic alloys. I wish he could be here now to share the excitement with me and teach me everything he knew. - But you and others are here on YT to take his place, generously sharing your lifetimes of experience - thanks again so much!
Hey Joe. That's pretty neat for vertical alignment. Personally, I swear by the eponymous "Rollie's Dad's Method" which requires even less in the way of precision equipment, and handles both vertical and horizontal alignment. It's bloody long to do, though.
I just watched that method demonstrated and would like to comment. If you have zero runout at the chuck and +/- .008 at the end of the test bar, when you attempt rotate the bar 90 degrees ( which actually won't be 90 degrees when the indicator reads zero) to get your second indicator 'zero' reading, the contact tip will be high or low on center and welcome a slight error in the reading when you traverse the material. Also, if you have that same +/- .008 error on the extended end, you have to ask why?? Is the material bent or straight and whipping? I see the value, but its risky.
@@joepie221 Like I said, it's a pretty long process. Do horizontal, then vertical, then repeat. The less runout you have, th easier it is to do, obviously, and your "test bar" needs to be as rigid as you can get, and round at the points you're measuring it. The rest simply doesn't matter. The errors cancel each other out, which is both why, and how, it works. I need to redo my Schaublin, having moved it, I'll do a video on the process.
What about people who don't have a collet chuck yet? I recently bought an ER40 13mm collet and nut to make a spindle taper collet holder. But I don't want to make it till my headstock is aligned. At the moment it's cutting a taper. I have a colchester master 2500 with just a 3 jaw chuck. What about leveling the headstock with rollies dad method?
I've done a similar thing in a slightly different manner. Chuck a piece of ground rod in the 4 jaw and indicate it in to run true with the spindle centerline at the chuck and at the tailstock end of the rod, then indicate over the top and the front on each end of the rod.
@@ellieprice363 Different machines will be adjusted differently. In my case, on an old South Bend Heavy 10, I had to shim between the headstock and bed castings.
@@edbennett8257 Thanks, I didn’t know the headstock could be shimmed. I thought it was bolted permanently to the ways, or part of the bed casting and could not be adjusted.
@@ellieprice363 The absolutely correct way to do it per most professionals would be to scrape the mating surfaces, since the headstock sets on one of the V ways and one of the flats, but I'm not proficient in that skill, and was able to get an acceptable result (for me) with trial and error shimming.
@@edbennett8257 I'm like Ellie I didn't know the headstock had any adjustment. I'm no machinist but I thought the bearings and races on the spindle was the adjustment or slop in the headstock. Thank you for the info.
I understand the theory of this, but can't picture how you are using the indicators in relation to the carriage. Is there a neat method to do this process if we don't have a collet chuck and 2 dial indicators?
Play the video again. Joe explains not to touch the indicator, which tells you that you are using only one indicator. You will need a collet chuck, as you need to repeat the measurement right up close to the spindle at the headstock.
Hi Joe. My tailstock seems to be about 10 thou high. How does this affect spot drilling, drilling in general and boring? I can't find any "unshims" in the tool catalogs. Any cure other that surface grinding or milling the the doggone thing down?
@@joepie221 Per Smithy's recommendation I removed the tailstock and cleaned it thoroughly and t.he error is down to approximately 1 thou. But a more serious issue: I have never been able to trust the markings on the X axis dial, but after doing to some testing it seems that the 20 thou tick marks are closer to 20.5 thou and I am not sure if the problem is in the lead screw or the gear and what if anything can be done other than a DRO. I don't find anything regarding this 2.5% error in the manual
@@professordeas1902 Sounds like the machine has metric leadscrews and the markings on the dial being off is due to the rounding error in the metric to inch conversion
@@pieterveenders9793 so we are all made of money and only stock our shop with the finest of tooling? and machines never crash, and accidents never happen. ok ;)
There are numerous methods for checking headstock alignment. The method I use relies on an accurate ground 1" diameter rod that's 12" long. I place it in a four jaw chuck with strips of copper. After centering the rod at both ends, I sweep the top and side with a 1/10's DTI. Any misalignment/bed wear issues will be revealed.
@@brianburke7440 a dial test indicator, or any comparator for that matter, just as long as you can see and indicate top/bottom and at least one side with it... test indicators with their little swing arm are easier to do it with than regular dial indicator which has a plunger style rod for picking up desired surface measurement...
But every lathe i have ever levelled ive not been able to "nod" the head, raising the levelling feet under the headstock only raised the entire machine. Could not get it to bend. Possibly because these were heavy build mazak and okuma cnc's? The error was minimal however, about a thou over 12 inches
There's usually some adjusting screws buried in the headstock, at least on larger machines. My 13x40 has them. My Taig doesn't, and I shimmed the headstock to adjust it.
Depends if the headstock is pitched up or down or has a yaw side to side. Up or down you can shim. Yaw depends on how the headstock mounts to the bed. Another thing to consider is most lathes wear more on the bed close to the headstock. LeBlonde actually did something smart on their later Regal series lathes. They had replaceable ways that bolted to the bed.
#2 or #3 Morse test bars aren't too expensive. An import would be ~$75 at the door. The test bars do have the advantage of quickly checking the parallelism of the head stock spindle vertically and horizontally to the lathe bed. Joe is spot on when he says that having your lathe correctly aligned makes life so much easier. You can work around misalignment of your lathe, but it's a needless time waster every time you turn or bore something and have to fiddle to get the work correct. A historical note. If you look in older texts like "Advanced Machine Work" (e.g. I use the 1917 edition) they do not suggest the the head stock be aligned perfectly. It is recommended that the head stock be thrown off to the rear so the lathe will turn a smaller diameter the closer you get to the head stock. The recommended taper is between 0.0000" to 0.0005" per foot. The reason for this is if you are turning a shaft to be pressed into a hole that you just bored this ensures that the interference between the two is the greatest just as they start together. This is important on a force fit. You are working near the limit of the bore to be stretched by the shaft and the last thing you want is to get it half way together together and have it hang because the shaft is getting larger and the bore is getting smaller. Cheers from NC/USA
I bought an imports test bar for my MT3 spindle. Was having fits trying to figure out what was going on. In "desperation" I put a mic on the "parallel" part of the bar. It varied 2 thou 0.002" across its' ground and hardened 12" length. Imports vary. "Trust But Varify" as Reagan said.
Re: 1917 edition. I have to assume this was when outside calipers were the standard tool for measuring diameters and before micrometers were in common use. Also from N.C./USA.
@Joe Why indicate on top? That would give you the headstock misalignment in vertical plane which is not really important - if the tool is slightly lower or higher it has very little effect on the turned diameter. If you indicate on the front you get misalignment in horizontal plane which is the one we all care about since tool movement in this case has a lot of effect on final diameter. What am I missing?
Machines with multiple leveling feet can really twist if not setup correctly. Each twist characteristic will have an impact on your part geometry. A lathe bed that is true and flat is still going to produce a tapered part if the head isn't parallel to the bed plane. Checking the height of identical diameters will demonstrate the dip or rise of a lathe head stock. This vertical misalignment as you call it, is a deal breaker when attempting to get a consistent turned diameter since the lathe centerline to the tool tip changes as the carriage traverses the bed. This is the most common issue when aligning a machine without having a spindle plug to do the alignment properly.
@@MotosAndMachines it is, but here what is meant is indicating a still rod, so top/bottom surface pickup tells you whether the headstock is looking down or up, and side measurements tell you whether the headstock is tilted left/right, if your bed ways are nice and parallel... But in any case, any form of tilt or lack of parallelism will result in a taper, finding out what kind of tilt/out of parallel causes your taper making is what we are up to here...
Joe Pieczynski, After you set your headstock true vertically and horizontally to your bed, you can chuck any long round shaft and adjust the tailstock true to the centerline axis. Start by machining a center hole in one end of the shaft. Extend the shaft as far as you want and support it with a live or dead center in the tailstock. Don't worry about the diameter or the straightness of the shaft. CRS works fine. Don't worry that the center hole might be off center. Use 2 dial indicators, one on each side of the shaft. Rotate the shaft and zero the indicators in the middle of the runout with the carriage near the chuck, then move the carriage to the tailstock end. Rotate the spindle again and look for the center of the indicated runout. If the center of the runout is the same offset on both indicators, the tailstock is adjusted properly. Make sure that differences are both positive or both negative incase the diameters changed. You can adjust the tailstock until both median runout positions are identical. It does not matter if the diameter is different at each position or if the shaft is bent. You are looking for the center axis of rotation. Suggest checking the vertical position as well and shim the tailstock at the adjustment joint if needed. Just make sure that your center is true to it's Morse taper. You can check this by flipping the center and see if anything changes. Try this for yourself and make a video if it works for you. P.S. This double indicator concept can be used to set the head true to the bed before working on the tailstock too if the shaft is strong enough to support itself against gravity.
and once you have done all that you do it all again with the tailstock quill fully extended . and then you find out that the tailstock quill is pointing down and all the shimming was in vain.
You also!! Are the man!! My strong point is that I was already a master of trigonometry when I got a mill. Naturally I set it up with a tilt and rotary axis, a rotary table on a rotary table with trunnion. I've made a flared spoke and a tapered spoke wheel, a pentagon with spokes, 3 sided bottom pyramid, dodecahedron, and many more. Basically I'm a master of calculations and writing plans but am new at machining. I love this advice. I have a lathe also and believe the floor settled underneath it. I will try your technique.
Are people calling you Hoppy? Take it easy Joe. Don't push it. I had an uncle who broke his ankle and couldn't wait to do things. They had to rebreak it and took over a year to heal. It was never right until he passed.
Hey Joe, I have a not expensive chinese (not to say cheap) lathe of 700mm between centers. The tail stock runs on a flat bed and not a V bed. I suspect my tail stock is not perfect. Can you offer any advise in getting it to run as true and center as possible? When I drill holes, they always seem to be bigger (only slightly) than the drill I used to make the hole yet I can't really see any wobble. I'm confused and if you can help, I'd appreciate it. Many thanks
@@joepie221 Yes Joe, my lathe ways are ground inside and both sides. You are suggesting a guide rail. Would you be a little more specific and if possible not too complicated. I'm only a retired pensioner and just a hobbyist but love tinkering in the shed. 🙂 I also have another issue. My lathe chuck will not hold a 3mm pin (I think it will only go down to 4mm) and I need to machine a 3mm pin very accurately. When I say machine the pin very accurately, I mean only the tip of the pin around 6mm with a certain shape I'd like. Without spending a heap of money on a collet set, can you suggest on how I can do this job. Hope you can help me out. Many thanks
@@redgum1340 Whenever we have to machine small diamters at work, we typically chuck up a very small chuck. Even a Jackob's juck might work if you have a 4 jaw and can indicate it in.
@@redgum1340 You would be better off using an ER collet holder to hold the 3 mm pin. Make sure you tighten down the collet firmly, so it clamps down the pin with enough force to hold it firmly in place. You can either use a hexagonol collet block clamped in your 3 jaw chuck, or a Morse Tapered collet holder mounted through the spindle bore and bolted in place with the respective side bolt on the other side of the spindle bore.
If you don't have a collet could you still achieve the same by following your procedure, but instead of fitting a collet turn down a piece of bar to the same .5", close to the chuck jaws. It may not be as sensitive, but should still display any error. Yes/no?
Hello Joe 👋, in the past I generally get a reply from you. I'm not completely in dark. Over 44yrs my career expanded, up help setting up new engine blocks. Hey friend, these systems had up 37 operating stations for performing the honing process. I have a new Lathe 11" swing by 30" bed travel. I'm a see 👀 person, is it possible to do a video with the spindle alignment to the bed. Would you benefit 🤔 from a video view. What's your take, hopefully you will give me a reply 🙂.
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It took me a few minutes to realize you're addressing HEADSTOCK leveling ( or could be "paralleling" to the ways) and not Tailstock aligning. I guess we all need to start there before doing any other alignment steps. As soon as I reassemble my 1950 Atlas QC-42 I can work on doing this! Thank you!
I ran a largish Lansing 9.25'' spindle bore lathe years ago that would never cut straight and I was constantly adjusting the tailstock on longer parts...
turns out that that it had a nice system to align the head stock fore and aft but all the bolts that hold down the headstock and the adjusters were loose!!!!
Got it all aligned and tightened down, made a drastic difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The surface finish probably got better too.
How timely! I'm going to be moving my beat up old lathe in another month and will need to re-align. Thanks for yet another gem of a video!
I'm really glad that you continue the practical hints about the machines and its fundamentals. Keep up the good work, greetings from Hungary!
Glad to do it. Be safe over there.
Like I said, you’re worth the wait 🤗 welcome back sir
Thanks Joe been dealing with that problem for awhile, really appreciate your videos. They are clear and helpful! Keep them coming!
As always another fantastic video. Joe you are gifted when it comes to your presentations, I'm a retired machinist and still can't get it out of my system so I resort to watching it on TH-cam. Thank you!
I can retire in a couple years. that just means all the machining I do will be for me. I don't know if I'll ever stop.
Good to see you, hope you are healing and well!
Great video as always Joe !!
Happy to see you back in the shop !! 😊
Hey Joe looking good in that shirt my friend 😉. I'm still a very big fan of your channel. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge through out the years.....👍👍👍
I appreciate you stopping by to check it out. I figured it would put a smile on your face. Stay well.
You!! Are the man!! My garage floor under My 14/40 lathe has settled I think. This is the technique I will use to get my lathe running true like it used to. The majority of the time, when someone watches me operate my mill and lathe they see your techniques, setups, jigs, etc.
I can't wait to get my new lathe in a few months and this is one of the first things I'll do once its set up. Thanks for all the info Joe :)
great tip. Thanks! I'm actually in your town working at the Giga Factory for the next few weeks. I appreciate the educational content.
I watched them build that factory. Amazing how fast it was done. Its the size of a small city and went up in record time. Amazing.
I really appreciate these videos! Please keep them coming Jo!!!😸
I'll do my best.
Joe's explanation was very clear, 1 indicator zeroed on top of the work piece, that work piece is then removed along with the chuck, then a collet chuck is installed with a dowel pin of the same dia. of the work piece then you use your indicator on the top of the dowel pin to take a reading, if there is a difference then you should adjust the bed of the lath up or down depending on the reading on your indicator.
Or the outer adjusters of the headstock.
That is a great idea. I bought one of those MT-5 headstock alignment tools. I think I paid $200 for it.It also has a center on the end,to align the tailstock.Yes…. I only used it once.🤣🤣🤣.Still, I consider it money well spent.Glad to see you are back.It’s been a few weeks. I missed those model builds.Not so much for the model itself but,for the ingenious setups you use to build them. I recently built a Tiny Power, Ajax horizontal steam engine. I used several of your setup techniques to build it. I am very happy with the results and,your contribution.
Glad you trusted the setups enough to use them. Thanks.
You are back and standing this is good, but don't push it it needs to heal right. Welcome back but take it easy!
To be honest, during the filming of this video, my right leg is actually kneeling on a support platform.
Wow, tuff crowd! aye Joe...thanks for making the effort to bring us a new vid, clearly before you are feeling 100% much appreciated mate. 👍
Thank you Joe!! Glad to see you back in the saddle!
Welcome back, Joe! What's your preferred method for checking tailstock alignment to head?
Left/right but also up/down.
Check out this method
It's great that everything is explained perfectly.
Hi Joe,
Good to see you back - I hope that you are fully recovered.
Now, a question : would a piece of silver steel - drill rod - do the same thing ? Check it for concentricity adjacent to chuck, or collet, and again at the outer end, and adjust to run true - that should give you the true axis of the headstock spindle. Check the top, and front, with a dial indicator, as you recommend . . . .
A discrepancy of reading, which varies linearly along the length of the bar indicates an alignment problem in the horizontal, or vertical plane, and a non-linear variation may indicate wear on the lathe bed ways . . . .
Not quite as good as a test bar, but maybe good enough for a small machine ?
Kind regards,
Steve A.
Steve, if you can absolutely trust the drill rod you use, having a straight true bar would demonstrate the problem too. Yes.
Thanks Joe: glad to see you up and about. Get well soon.
Thanks, I'm up, but the 'about' takes a little more effort for a while.
Another aspect I’ve yet to consider.
I spent considerable time leveling my ways. Then I turned the bar bell shaped material and measured both ends for consistency. I adjusted the ways until everything cut straight and repeated.
Did this last year and I don’t use my lathe but about once a week on average.
Goes without saying the damned thing is so far out now.
I can still manage decent work for what I’m needing. Just can’t keep up with perfection as much as I’d like.
The settling that takes place in my area is surely a problem.
Settling has nothing to do with it, you could hang the lathe upside down and it doesn't make any difference, as long as the headstock is aligned with the tailstock and parallel to the ways
@@andyb7963 True but the twist in the ways, if any, must be corrected for the lathe to machine straight without taper. My Jet 12x36 had a slight twist in the ways. I had to anchor one of the tailstock legs to the concrete to gently apply enough pressure to the other side to remove it. A precision level was necessary for this adjustment.
Joe, your method is much like the one I have used (only I work with a plug in the mandrel-taper rather than with a piece of stock in a collet). I'd suggest one variation: if you indicate the piece in the collet (or the mandrel-plug) first, turning it true if need be, and THEN put the chuck on with the long piece of stock, you don't need a second indicator. The same routine, but indicating at the front or back of the stock, works for getting the axis parallel to the ways as seen from above, too.
About from above view. How do you get around not being able to move the indicator up and down to find the high spot of the round plug or round stock? I began to wonder if this technique could be used for both adjustments, before this video was over.
It's been a long time since I've had to think about this and just realized that if you turn some length of stock then check for a taper, this works well for the above view. But I still would like to know the solution.
welcome back glad to see you up and around...................Be well and be safe..........
very good video Joe..thanks for your time
I need to do this on a used lathe I recently added to my shop. I got it leveled, but it appears to be slightly off, I suspect side to side. Fortunately I followed your logic and will try this way first. I think I have a piece of 3/4" ground stock several inches long which in theory should allow both measurements with one test rod, assuming it turns concentric. We will see. Glad to see you back in the saddle.
It's temporary, but I'm working on it.
Great info as always Joe. Very timely as well as I am planning to move my lathe into my new shop soon. Thanks again for sharing!
Hi Guy. Good to hear from you. I was wondering about that shop ( and your back ). I hope both are coming along nicely. Keep in touch.
Mr. Pie, Is it possible to use a microphone that clips to your shirt/collar when you do lessons?
Why don't you buy one for him
@@andyb7963 because I am a subscriber not a host
Yes, its possible, but I have to use a self contained unit. That makes editing practical demonstrations a bit more complex.
Mixa Sid Just curious, do you have your subscriber visibility turned off? I get a lot of comments from people that believe they are subscribed that don't show up.
Great to see you again!
Long time no hear Jo, welcome back....
The arbor you mention in the beginning, can be bought from China. Are they good? At 1/5 the price of a Western made version. I am suspicious. However your trick here is brilliant. I can't put words too how much you impress me over and over again!
Interesting trick. I've always used the technique that Harold Hall described in his book. That consists of taking a heavy piece of stock at the chuck, say 3-in diameter 8-in long, and then, without supporting the tail, turn it to a diameter. Any taper indicates headstock misalignment across the ways (X direction). Misalignment in the vertical direction (Y) will cause more non-cylindrical complicated shapes, but this technique measures the Y misalignment more directly and makes a nice compliment.
Its a good quick check that assumes the head is axially true to the ways.
Welcome back. hope you are well. i havent done much lathe work due to the machine turning the unintended taper(towards the chuck) levelling didnt help much though i suspect its the wood beam(about 1" thick) mounted on the steel frame on floor. ive also been told it could be the headstock is flexing towards operator side of stand thus turning taper towards chuck. was planning to reinstall mc on reinforced straightened steel surface and take it from there
Yes, git them woods outta machineshop! Polished concrete, marble or steel is the way to go for machine bases or surfaces that a machine sits on, be it a 50kg lathe or a mill or a 3 ton one or a 10 ton one... If the foundation has shitty compression properties and cant bear the weight with a constant deformation, you are gonna have some problems, wood as a machine base is a terror, as it soaks oils, gets puffy, gets squeezed and crushed on other places, breathes and changes moisture content constantly and again moves because of it... No piece of wood is good, be it an inch or a wood slab 20 inches thick, the thicker the worse even, as wood unlike modern steel or concrete might have cysts within it which are hard as fuck or soft as turds and can additionally screw up the predictability of the material deformation... Get a scrap flat 1 or 2 inch plate of steel and use that... You can even have it surface ground for relatively cheap, just have them make it parallel, which can be done in a few passes and a single flip... Any decent machinist will be ashamed to charge you for it, but will regardless, but not much if they are not a cunt... Just dont bring a rusty piece of shit, wire wheel it first or douse it with acid and wash it off and lightly oil it before you bring it in, or you will be told to piss off, you and your rusty slab... Such a plate will make for a predictable machine base and you can measure the parallelism of it, it dont really matter if you use shims either way or have leveling feet for her... The few tenths off from the sgrinder will be better than any wood after a rainy day...
Cheers and all the best luck!
Glad to see you're back at it! Great content as usual!
Almost up to speed. It will be a while.
I had a similar issue with a used lathe I had just bought. I was getting about .005" of taper on diameter over about 6". I figured out that the bed of the lathe ran the whole length of the lathe and the headstock was actually clamped to it. It was not keyed or pinned in any way. There were 4 big bolts that did the clamping and adjustment sctews that allowed the headstock to be moved when the big bolts were cracked loose.
As a means to measure the non parallelism, I clamped a bar of 1.5" dia aluminum in the chuck and took a cut the full length. Using an indicator attached to the cross slide, I swept it along the back side of the bar. This showed 2X the taper. It was then a simple matter of making an adjustment and then taking another cut and measure. Using this technique, I was able to get the indicated taper under .0005 over 12". I was happy with it at this point.
My issue was what I will call in/out misalignment. Your video was talking about up/down misalignment. It seems to me this technique would work just as well with up/down misalignment. The trick would be that the cut would have to take place on the bottom of the workpiece and the taper would then have to be measured on the top. I guess the tricky part would be advancing the tool into the workpiece for each successive cut.
joe's was also in/out.
move a round piece in /out and the up/down measurement changes....
Joe, I’m confused as to WHERE I mount my indicator (base) is it on the carriage or on the ways? This is probably a dumb question, but, I’m a real amateur (newbie) at this. I really would like to learn how to verify my head stock is true. Thank. Rex Myers
On the cross-slide, so it can be moved in the X direction to find the high spot
Anywhere on the carriage will do.
Thanks, Joe. Great video. Am I correct in that this only checks for up and down discrepancy and not necessarily left / right? It seems like the centerline of the spindle could be parallel with the bed while also pointing to the left of right of the tailstock. I have an import 12-36 and I don't yet have a collet set up. I put a piece of 1" steel round, about 15" long in my 3-jaw with about 3" in and 12" sticking out. Then I kept adjusting my tailstock left and right until I removed any taper in the part, down to .001 over 12"; I can't seem to get that last thou out consistently. That's where I'm currently at with it. I plan to cut the unturned portion off so I have about 12" of straight part. I planned changing over the 4-jaw, indicate the part in and then just use a toolpost mounted indicator to see which way the part is pointed. In the likely chance adjustment is made, I'll have to start over again with the tailstock. Would love your thoughts if you happen to see this. Thanks.
Correct. The front to rear alignment in relation to the tail stock should be checked between centers or after a between center cut. Adjust the tailstock. If there is an unsupported angular error, you have bigger issues at hand.
How do you account for wear in the ways? Won't the wear throw off the alignment?
If the ways are worn that much then they need to be scraped to get them true
I love the Rick drawing
My son did that. Its pretty accurate.
Very good! Thanks Joe
I’m very new at machining; working on my first lathe. Why not use a gauge pin in the first operation just as you did in the second? I enjoy your videos. Thanks.
When using a 3 Jaw chuck and a pin, your pin won't be exactly in the rotational center of your lathe because of inaccuracy in the chuck. But a turned piece always is in the center axis of rotation. The collet chuck is more accurate so it doesn't have that problem.
Great info Joe, thanks.
awesome hope you feeling better
Thanks. Better every day.
So having just taken delivery of my new 14 x 40 lathe, I’ve added 6 levelling feet (4 under headstock & 2 under the tailstock end.
I’ve used my Starrett machinists level and got it perfect side to side under the chuck and at tailstock end & in the middle.
I put the level lengthways on the cross slide & got dead level end to end.
However if I put the 3 way blocks and Starrett level on the ways lengthwise rather than on the cross slide, I get a slight slope to tailstock end, so it would seem my cross slide and the ways might be a fraction high on the tailstock side perhaps.
Figured that can’t hurt any & will just help coolant flow to the drain / sump in the tailstock end if anything.
So my new Edge technology tailstock alignment bar arrived and I’ve mounted it between dead centres & tested each end at the side of the precision ground ends with runout dial calliper.
I get 0.02mm at the tailstock end which is 2/3rds of one thousandth of an inch.
Probably not worth chasing that final 2/3rds of 1/1000th inch by trying to adjust the tailstock sideways such a small amount.
After watching this video last night, I realise that I also needed to test the height also at each end of the edge technology alignment bar - which I have done this morning and I am 0.2mm (8/1000ths) high at tailstock end.🤷♂️
Does this maybe mean that the two inboard levelling feet under the headstock end (the ones closest to tailstock end of the 4 under headstock) need to lower slightly to bring the centerline of the spindle down at the tailstock end by 8/1000ths (0.2mm) at 1 foot end of the test bar? 🤷♂️
I’d like to “get this right” if I can.
The “factory test sheet” that came in the owners manual says:-
“Difference in centre height between headstock & tailstock (tailstock upward) tested at 0.06mm (2 thou) & the “tolerance” is 0.08mm (3 thou).
So it seems at 0.2mm / 8 thousandths I’m high compared to factory testing & “allowable tolerance” (.08 / 3 thou) maybe. 🤷♂️
I’ve heard that manufacturers deliberately set tailstock height a fraction high when new so that over time as it slides back and forth it “beds in / wears down slightly and eventually comes to even height with headstock height.
When machining all the tool pressure is from the side & I’m within .02mm (2/3rds of a thou) - so I can’t see chasing the 0.2mm height difference at tailstock end is worth the effort?
Please feel free to correct me on this because I’m completely new to this from a wood butchering background & this is my first ever metal lathe so I’m totally “feeling my way” as I try to get this set up correctly.
Many thanks in advance.
Transposing...
And looking for differences in values obtained.......common sense
Good video
🇬🇧🙂
Its a work around without spending cash.
@@joepie221
Yes...
And it's a common sense one too..
I'm not a machinist....I like fucking around with antique belt driven machine tools...
I'm an electrician by trade...
🇬🇧🙂
Great little shop gem tank you very much.
I work in the maintenance department where I work; and we have a selection of “test bars” when we install a new lathe or checking the alignment of the unit. This is why we lug down our lathes, so that we can pull down a point if needed. A majority of my new employees think it is a waste of time. Thinking that this unit weighs in at thousands of pounds and that gravity will settle it down. That is not the case.
its always good to have the right tools.
Setting up the stock in your chuck so that the distance from pin in chuck to pin in collet is the same as the bolt centers on the headstock would auto-calculate the shims needed for alignment.
Along the 'Z' axis I presume. Makes sense.
Industry standards specifications can be hard to track down, this is for tailstock center height, 005" above center for engine lathes. .002" above center toolroom lathes. Spindle taper run out engine lathes .0005" that one is in DSG lathe manual also. Spindle run out toolroom lathes .0002" but Hardinge and Monarch both under .00005"
Most interesting spec is this one, facing 5"" disk .0002" to .0003" concave, toolroom lathe, that critically important for sealing high pressure interfaces in nuclear as well as hydraulics. the slight concave can be quickly flattened by lapping if needed. Facing convex is bad for every application.
I bought a small but heavy pattern gearhead lathe that had been lagged and grouted to a floor that likely settled in 8 decades and it put a twist in the bed. It has taken more than a year for it to level itself out on its own because my floor is not good enough to re-lag it and pull it true. great video!
Welcome back !!!!
John
I have a 1220 import, so precision tends to be subjective. I chucked up the biggest diameter material I could and faced it, making sure to lock down the carriage. Then I reversed the direction of the spindle at center and continued the cut across to close to the edge. If more material was cut, the head is pointed to the front 1/2 the amount. Then I set up an indicator, unlock the carriage and touch off while watching the dial. Any deviation from 0 before touching means it’s pointed to the rear. Of course being an import, it’s wise to check that the crossfeed is perpendicular to the chuck. That’s more critical for facing operations than anything and a lot more expensive to anything about.
Its wise to bias your machine in the area where you do most of your work. Facing off a 1" bar won't demonstrate the same amount of error as turning an extended length, but both conditions should be dialed in at the same time or something is very wrong. Keep in mind a cross slide that is not perpendicular to the ways will produce the cymbol face cut you described.
Simply face a fairly diameter piece of stock to the center then run an indicator across the face. This will tell you if the face is flat, dished, or cone shaped.
Thank you Joe
Very welcome
Awesome!!!!…I don’t want to know…..LOL, might spoil my happy world!!!!
Nice to see the flag your videos inspire a new generation of machinists
I hope so.
Thanks Joe
Thank You Joe!
I actually have an old lathe that is worn such that an indicator mounted to the saddle and indicating on the flat ts way drops .030 near the chuck from say 8" to the right. I do have a better bed to install but that will require quite a bit of labor that I' don't have time for right now.
Glad you're back but I hope you're not pushing it to fast, take care and take it easy...
Thanks. I'm getting restless.
@@joepie221 lol..
I chuck a 12" long 3" diameter thin wall aluminum tube into my 4jaw and turn it round (un-supported) with a shearing tool. A shearing tool applies almost no pressure through the axis. I can then rotate the head until I have no taper. Once the tube has no taper, I can verify there is no tilt. A tube like this will not sag.
I have a second tube that is plugged at either end so it can be turned between centers for checking tailstock alignment. The middle both tubes it are undercut so I only have to turn the outer 1" or so. I use 2 tubes since the plugged tube will probably sag a bit when un-supported.
The reduced weight is an advantage. Sounds legit.
Joshua, look at my comment and see if it works for you. Using 2 opposing indicators means the tube or shaft does not need to be straight or even machined true.
Great to see your ole mug back on the tube, and hope the foot surgery is recovering at a fast pass. Diving seasons is just around the corner (@@)!. your ole friend Bear. PS. Brisket will be awaiting when you can come our way,,,:)> Bear and Bride . And thx for the alignment tip too :)>..
Not fast enough Bear. I've got a long way to go.
We will be thing of you,,,
Same idea as the tool height gage you made for the lathe. Use a pin in chuck/collet and indicate it. 👍
Good to see you on your feet.
FOOT. I'm kneeling on a platform for this one
Lathe doesn't have to be leveled -you can put it at 45° if you want . What it needs to be is parallel. Ways need to be parallel with each other and with central axis of the machine.
Agree, I used to be a naval / marine engineer. I have been working on a lathe in the engine room workshop during heavy seas. Pitching and rolling, that lathe was never level former than a fraction of a second. Not a problem as longs as the lathe has sufficient rigidity and the ways are parallel with each other and with the central axis of the lathe as you mention.
@Dave Pin Exactly, Dave. He’s also described that very thing in great detail on other videos for those of us who have been paying attention.
Thanks. It doesn't hurt to reiterate this for people who are new to "leveling" the lathe or have not watched all the other videos.
Just true as stated.
I didn't get it sorry. From where am I indicating, the bed or the carriage? I think it's deserving of a practical demonstration.
The carriage
Indicate the top of the turned diameter from an indicator mounted to your tool post on the cross slide.
good one !
I just spent 2 hours leveling my Clausing 5912
How do you adjust the head ?
Use the outer leveling feet adjusters on the head or bed.
Nice method. Need to try, except I don't have a collette with small enough run-out. I think this should work when turning same diameter into start and end of the bar and then indicating the height.
Spent today few hours with my lathe trying to figure out what is wrong and how could I fix it. There are just too many problems, so it is hard to figure out, but probably headstock misalignment is one of them.
Precision level indicates that rails are lower at the middle and the front rail is lower than back rail. If the lathe is leveled with the carriage in the middle, bubble runs on corresponding end in each end. Also in sideways direction, it runs on the back side.
I have made alignment bar from precision ground 35mm axel by drilling centers in each end on steady rest. Runout is about 1um, which I find to be perfect, since I indicate the bar when running my lathe in low speeds and reading average. It makes it easy to align tailstock sideways, but vertical alignment behaves weirdly.
With indicator touching the bar at the center of cross-slide, two thirds from the tailstock seems to be constant distance, but closer to the chuck, distance increases 0.01mm, when it should drop since rails turn up. Then when i turn the indicator on either side, about 10cm from the center of cross-slide, distance stays the same on entire travel length.
That 0.01mm doesn't sound bad, but I can get severe tapers with parts mounted directly to the church, especially very close to jaws. It can be something like 0.03mm in 2cm distance with a tool that is perfectly center.
Any similar experience would be helpful. My work continues, since this is really starting to bug me.
How big is this machine?
@@joepie221 It is HBM 250x550, meaning work length is 550mm, max diameter 250 mm and weight 125kg. It's not minilathe, but not real lathe either.
I have pretty solid steel table with 20mm thick and 25cm wide steel plate bolted to the lathe bottom. I kind of scraped it with angle grinder to match the lathe. Directly under the bolts, I have two 95x8mm CrMo tubes supporting most of the weight. They are standing on adjustable pads on the floor. Also, In each end of the base plate, I have 5mm thick square tubing which have their own legs to the floor. I can easily adjust the twist, since the bolts are on working height.
I played a while with headstock alignment using 45mm chrome plated and grinded CrMo bar with pieces of 50x5 aluminium pipes added to the ends. Then I don't have to destroy the stock and I can machine aluminium with less force. As far as I know, the headstock is not adjustable, so it has to be done with twist.
With 30cm bar, my alignment was off about 0.015mm (0.0006"), which was good, considering what kind of errors I get. I was able to adjust it into 0 by twisting the table, but then the rails got more out of level. However, the first half if the lathe is now better and the tight spot in the middle moved close to the end of the lathe. When turning closer to the chuck and with materials which require some cutting forces, I get worse precision than before. Probably I have more clearance on rails, but I can't tighten them or I'll get stuck at the end.
Not owning a Lathe myself. So if you find that the lathe head is out of alignment, what adjustments can you make on the lathe to align the head?
Adjust the levelling feet at the headstock.
Hi joe! I love your clever tricks and hope you can also help me out with one. I need to turn a long hex schaft between centers on my lathe but the hex shaft wont fit through my spindle. How do I accurately drill the centre holes?
Use a ring called a 'Cats Head'. Its just a piece of round pipe your hex stock can fit through. Drill 3 tapped holes in it at 120 degree spacing and use that for support in a steady rest.
@@joepie221 thanks for this quick response ! and for a great solution! Now I still need to find a steady rest 😅
I just have bought lathe, and i need aling that. Thank you this video
Perfect timing - just got a new lathe, waiting for the forklift guy to come get it from the driveway into the basement :-)
Exciting times. Good luck and be safe.
@@joepie221 Thanks! It's a lifetime-dream tool that I could only manage now that I'm retired. My Dad was a master machinist, came up the old-school apprenticeship route, ended up as a foreman in the experimental machine shop for Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT. He started out machining repair parts for water-powered (line shaft) fabric-weaving machines, ended up running operations like electro-chemical machining of (I think) 10-20mil, spiraling cooling holes down the length of turbine blades for jet engines, made from exotic alloys.
I wish he could be here now to share the excitement with me and teach me everything he knew. - But you and others are here on YT to take his place, generously sharing your lifetimes of experience - thanks again so much!
Real good tip - as ever!
Thanks for the video.
Yes welcome back, and I noticed some change in your health,
Looks like you lost some weight,
Hope it's not serious,
Hey Joe. That's pretty neat for vertical alignment. Personally, I swear by the eponymous "Rollie's Dad's Method" which requires even less in the way of precision equipment, and handles both vertical and horizontal alignment. It's bloody long to do, though.
I just watched that method demonstrated and would like to comment. If you have zero runout at the chuck and +/- .008 at the end of the test bar, when you attempt rotate the bar 90 degrees ( which actually won't be 90 degrees when the indicator reads zero) to get your second indicator 'zero' reading, the contact tip will be high or low on center and welcome a slight error in the reading when you traverse the material. Also, if you have that same +/- .008 error on the extended end, you have to ask why?? Is the material bent or straight and whipping? I see the value, but its risky.
@@joepie221 Like I said, it's a pretty long process. Do horizontal, then vertical, then repeat. The less runout you have, th easier it is to do, obviously, and your "test bar" needs to be as rigid as you can get, and round at the points you're measuring it. The rest simply doesn't matter. The errors cancel each other out, which is both why, and how, it works.
I need to redo my Schaublin, having moved it, I'll do a video on the process.
Good to know. Only problem is I don't have collets for my lathe.
Great tip Joe... Thanx
Thanks for sharing 👍
What about people who don't have a collet chuck yet? I recently bought an ER40 13mm collet and nut to make a spindle taper collet holder. But I don't want to make it till my headstock is aligned. At the moment it's cutting a taper. I have a colchester master 2500 with just a 3 jaw chuck. What about leveling the headstock with rollies dad method?
If it's cutting a taper then it's most likely to be the tailstock that's out which can be adjusted side to side
@@andyb7963 i'm talking about it cutting a taper without tailsupport
Man, great stuff.
I've done a similar thing in a slightly different manner. Chuck a piece of ground rod in the 4 jaw and indicate it in to run true with the spindle centerline at the chuck and at the tailstock end of the rod, then indicate over the top and the front on each end of the rod.
How do you correct it if it’s out, say .003 high at the tailstock end? I understand the check but not the correction.
@@ellieprice363 Different machines will be adjusted differently. In my case, on an old South Bend Heavy 10, I had to shim between the headstock and bed castings.
@@edbennett8257 Thanks, I didn’t know the headstock could be shimmed. I thought it was bolted permanently to the ways, or part of the bed casting and could not be adjusted.
@@ellieprice363 The absolutely correct way to do it per most professionals would be to scrape the mating surfaces, since the headstock sets on one of the V ways and one of the flats, but I'm not proficient in that skill, and was able to get an acceptable result (for me) with trial and error shimming.
@@edbennett8257 I'm like Ellie I didn't know the headstock had any adjustment. I'm no machinist but I thought the bearings and races on the spindle was the adjustment or slop in the headstock. Thank you for the info.
I understand the theory of this, but can't picture how you are using the indicators in relation to the carriage.
Is there a neat method to do this process if we don't have a collet chuck and 2 dial indicators?
Play the video again. Joe explains not to touch the indicator, which tells you that you are using only one indicator. You will need a collet chuck, as you need to repeat the measurement right up close to the spindle at the headstock.
Great tip but.... How to correct for errors? I don't want to think about it.....
Centering the unboxed collet chucks is the next move...
Gently tweek the outer adjusters if you have at least 6, otherwise, shims will be needed.
Hi Joe. My tailstock seems to be about 10 thou high. How does this affect spot drilling, drilling in general and boring? I can't find any "unshims" in the tool catalogs. Any cure other that surface grinding or milling the the doggone thing down?
Are you sure your head is level? The lathe head...
@@joepie221 Per Smithy's recommendation I removed the tailstock and cleaned it thoroughly and t.he error is down to approximately 1 thou. But a more serious issue: I have never been able to trust the markings on the X axis dial, but after doing to some testing it seems that the 20 thou tick marks are closer to 20.5 thou and I am not sure if the problem is in the lead screw or the gear and what if anything can be done other than a DRO. I don't find anything regarding this 2.5% error in the manual
@@professordeas1902 Sounds like the machine has metric leadscrews and the markings on the dial being off is due to the rounding error in the metric to inch conversion
Great to know 👍thanks Joe!
one small addition, about trusting that collet...
rotate the spindle for highest and lowest, the actual deviation is the mean...
If your collet has a high and low...get another collet.
True that.
Still, its the general recommendation even with the precision ground test bars. Never assume, double check, and aim for the middle...
@@paradiselost9946 AAA accuracy class ER collets are accurate to
@@pieterveenders9793 so we are all made of money and only stock our shop with the finest of tooling?
and machines never crash, and accidents never happen.
ok ;)
There are numerous methods for checking headstock alignment. The method I use relies on an accurate ground 1" diameter rod that's 12" long. I place it in a four jaw chuck with strips of copper. After centering the rod at both ends, I sweep the top and side with a 1/10's DTI. Any misalignment/bed wear issues will be revealed.
DTi?
@@brianburke7440 you Burke…..
@@brianburke7440 a dial test indicator, or any comparator for that matter, just as long as you can see and indicate top/bottom and at least one side with it... test indicators with their little swing arm are easier to do it with than regular dial indicator which has a plunger style rod for picking up desired surface measurement...
@@brianburke7440 DTI = dial test indicator
Interesting way of doing it.
But every lathe i have ever levelled ive not been able to "nod" the head, raising the levelling feet under the headstock only raised the entire machine. Could not get it to bend. Possibly because these were heavy build mazak and okuma cnc's?
The error was minimal however, about a thou over 12 inches
There's usually some adjusting screws buried in the headstock, at least on larger machines. My 13x40 has them. My Taig doesn't, and I shimmed the headstock to adjust it.
The real question is, how do you correct it if it's out?
Depends if the headstock is pitched up or down or has a yaw side to side. Up or down you can shim. Yaw depends on how the headstock mounts to the bed. Another thing to consider is most lathes wear more on the bed close to the headstock. LeBlonde actually did something smart on their later Regal series lathes. They had replaceable ways that bolted to the bed.
#2 or #3 Morse test bars aren't too expensive. An import would be ~$75 at the door. The test bars do have the advantage of quickly checking the parallelism of the head stock spindle vertically and horizontally to the lathe bed.
Joe is spot on when he says that having your lathe correctly aligned makes life so much easier. You can work around misalignment of your lathe, but it's a needless time waster every time you turn or bore something and have to fiddle to get the work correct.
A historical note. If you look in older texts like "Advanced Machine Work" (e.g. I use the 1917 edition) they do not suggest the the head stock be aligned perfectly. It is recommended that the head stock be thrown off to the rear so the lathe will turn a smaller diameter the closer you get to the head stock. The recommended taper is between 0.0000" to 0.0005" per foot. The reason for this is if you are turning a shaft to be pressed into a hole that you just bored this ensures that the interference between the two is the greatest just as they start together. This is important on a force fit. You are working near the limit of the bore to be stretched by the shaft and the last thing you want is to get it half way together together and have it hang because the shaft is getting larger and the bore is getting smaller.
Cheers from NC/USA
Interesting.
@Brian Sprouster me too. Same conclusion
I bought an imports test bar for my MT3 spindle. Was having fits trying to figure out what was going on. In "desperation" I put a mic on the "parallel" part of the bar. It varied 2 thou 0.002" across its' ground and hardened 12" length. Imports vary. "Trust But Varify" as Reagan said.
@@vitesseguy yep, you’re always rolling the dice.
Re: 1917 edition. I have to assume this was when outside calipers were the standard tool for measuring diameters and before micrometers were in common use. Also from N.C./USA.
@Joe Why indicate on top? That would give you the headstock misalignment in vertical plane which is not really important - if the tool is slightly lower or higher it has very little effect on the turned diameter. If you indicate on the front you get misalignment in horizontal plane which is the one we all care about since tool movement in this case has a lot of effect on final diameter. What am I missing?
Machines with multiple leveling feet can really twist if not setup correctly. Each twist characteristic will have an impact on your part geometry. A lathe bed that is true and flat is still going to produce a tapered part if the head isn't parallel to the bed plane. Checking the height of identical diameters will demonstrate the dip or rise of a lathe head stock. This vertical misalignment as you call it, is a deal breaker when attempting to get a consistent turned diameter since the lathe centerline to the tool tip changes as the carriage traverses the bed. This is the most common issue when aligning a machine without having a spindle plug to do the alignment properly.
But isn't a vertical change also a radius change, which then forms a taper anyway?
@@MotosAndMachines it is, but here what is meant is indicating a still rod, so top/bottom surface pickup tells you whether the headstock is looking down or up, and side measurements tell you whether the headstock is tilted left/right, if your bed ways are nice and parallel... But in any case, any form of tilt or lack of parallelism will result in a taper, finding out what kind of tilt/out of parallel causes your taper making is what we are up to here...
Joe Pieczynski, After you set your headstock true vertically and horizontally to your bed, you can chuck any long round shaft and adjust the tailstock true to the centerline axis. Start by machining a center hole in one end of the shaft. Extend the shaft as far as you want and support it with a live or dead center in the tailstock. Don't worry about the diameter or the straightness of the shaft. CRS works fine. Don't worry that the center hole might be off center. Use 2 dial indicators, one on each side of the shaft. Rotate the shaft and zero the indicators in the middle of the runout with the carriage near the chuck, then move the carriage to the tailstock end. Rotate the spindle again and look for the center of the indicated runout. If the center of the runout is the same offset on both indicators, the tailstock is adjusted properly. Make sure that differences are both positive or both negative incase the diameters changed. You can adjust the tailstock until both median runout positions are identical. It does not matter if the diameter is different at each position or if the shaft is bent. You are looking for the center axis of rotation. Suggest checking the vertical position as well and shim the tailstock at the adjustment joint if needed. Just make sure that your center is true to it's Morse taper. You can check this by flipping the center and see if anything changes. Try this for yourself and make a video if it works for you. P.S. This double indicator concept can be used to set the head true to the bed before working on the tailstock too if the shaft is strong enough to support itself against gravity.
and once you have done all that you do it all again with the tailstock quill fully extended .
and then you find out that the tailstock quill is pointing down and all the shimming was in vain.
You also!! Are the man!! My strong point is that I was already a master of trigonometry when I got a mill. Naturally I set it up with a tilt and rotary axis, a rotary table on a rotary table with trunnion. I've made a flared spoke and a tapered spoke wheel, a pentagon with spokes, 3 sided bottom pyramid, dodecahedron, and many more. Basically I'm a master of calculations and writing plans but am new at machining. I love this advice. I have a lathe also and believe the floor settled underneath it. I will try your technique.
Are people calling you Hoppy? Take it easy Joe. Don't push it. I had an uncle who broke his ankle and couldn't wait to do things. They had to rebreak it and took over a year to heal. It was never right until he passed.
I'm climbing the walls now. I'd come unglued if I was told I had another year to go.
Hey Joe, I have a not expensive chinese (not to say cheap) lathe of 700mm between centers. The tail stock runs on a flat bed and not a V bed. I suspect my tail stock is not perfect. Can you offer any advise in getting it to run as true and center as possible? When I drill holes, they always seem to be bigger (only slightly) than the drill I used to make the hole yet I can't really see any wobble. I'm confused and if you can help, I'd appreciate it. Many thanks
Is the area between the ways ground? Maybe add a underside guide rail to the tailstock?
@@joepie221 Yes Joe, my lathe ways are ground inside and both sides. You are suggesting a guide rail. Would you be a little more specific and if possible not too complicated. I'm only a retired pensioner and just a hobbyist but love tinkering in the shed. 🙂 I also have another issue. My lathe chuck will not hold a 3mm pin (I think it will only go down to 4mm) and I need to machine a 3mm pin very accurately. When I say machine the pin very accurately, I mean only the tip of the pin around 6mm with a certain shape I'd like. Without spending a heap of money on a collet set, can you suggest on how I can do this job. Hope you can help me out. Many thanks
@@redgum1340 Whenever we have to machine small diamters at work, we typically chuck up a very small chuck. Even a Jackob's juck might work if you have a 4 jaw and can indicate it in.
@@redgum1340 You would be better off using an ER collet holder to hold the 3 mm pin. Make sure you tighten down the collet firmly, so it clamps down the pin with enough force to hold it firmly in place. You can either use a hexagonol collet block clamped in your 3 jaw chuck, or a Morse Tapered collet holder mounted through the spindle bore and bolted in place with the respective side bolt on the other side of the spindle bore.
If you don't have a collet could you still achieve the same by following your procedure, but instead of fitting a collet turn down a piece of bar to the same .5", close to the chuck jaws. It may not be as sensitive, but should still display any error. Yes/no?
Its really the difference in diameters checked that shows the error. Not using a collet is OK, but I like to get close to the spindle nose.
Hello Joe 👋, in the past I generally get a reply from you. I'm not completely in dark. Over 44yrs my career expanded, up help setting up new engine blocks. Hey friend, these systems had up 37 operating stations for performing the honing process. I have a new Lathe 11" swing by 30" bed travel. I'm a see 👀 person, is it possible to do a video with the spindle alignment to the bed. Would you benefit 🤔 from a video view. What's your take, hopefully you will give me a reply 🙂.
You bet. A visual demonstration is always a good idea, but running the lathe right now is a bit difficult, so it will have to wait.
Excellent!!
Glad you like it!
Could a person use a boresight laser for a gun barrel in the chuck to get the headstock running true
That's a good thought, but that beam is actually pretty wide and would not be precise for lathe alignment.