I absolutely adore it when Michelle's detractors post their comments 20 minutes after she uploads a 2-hour video. To me, that says it all. Zero effort to investigate, zero desire to consider anything that might shed light on historical discrepancies, nothing but a stubborn hold on their preconceptions. Thank you, gentlemen, for illustrating that so clearly.
IKR 🤣. Poor men fighting to their very destruction to have their concubines 😅. They couldn't care less about Joseph, the church or the gospel. They only care to be right at all costs.
I have studied the history of Mormon polygamy extensively for 28 years. I have bought and read pretty much every scholarly book published on the subject. Every serious, legitimate historian who has published on the issue of Mormon polygamy beginning with Fawn Brodie's 1946 bio concurs that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy. By the time of Joseph Smith's death, about 130 people in Nauvoo had heard of polygamy. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM who related their experience with it stated that they learned of it personally from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. That includes all of those who accepted polygamy and practiced it as well as those who opposed it and worked to abolish it. Here is what a legitimate historian wrote on this issue: "From Joseph Smith’s first documented plural marriage in 1841 until his death more than three years later, some twenty-eight men and 106 women (as civil and plural wives) entered the prophet’s order of celestial matrimony.[1] Given the secrecy surrounding Smith’s controversial (and illegal) practice, the exact number of these earliest polygamists may never be known. However, enough information in the form of diaries, letters, auto biographies, reminiscences, affidavits, statements, and family histories has accumulated since the early 1840s-coupled with reasonable inferences and educated guesses-to enable a compelling, albeit tentative, identification... "The abundant evidence for Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo plural wives was first published in Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 233-34. Jenson was followed by Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, 2d ed., rev. and enl. (1945; New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), 457-88; Thomas Milton Tinney, The Royal Family of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Junior (Salt Lake City: Tinney-Green[e] Family Organization Publishing Company, 1973); Danel W. Bachman, “A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage before the Death of Joseph Smith” (1975); George D. Smith, “Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Polygamy” (1994); D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (1994), 587-88; and most recently Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness. Although some readers may disagree in a handful of instances with Compton’s identifications of Smith’s Nauvoo wives,[74] I believe he is accurate. In fact, I am persuaded that the evidence allows for an additional four (if not more) plural wives-Mary Houston, Sarah Scott Mulholland, Mary Ann Frost Stearns Pratt, and Phebe Watrous Woodworth-bringing the total of Joseph Smith’s known Nauvoo plural wives to at least thirty-six." ---Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844, Gary James Bergera.
Give us a list of legitimate historians who have published on the subject of Mormon polygamy who agree with Michelle's assertion that Joseph Smith did not originate or practice polygamy.
You found some great information to shed more light. It really is looking more like people were sealed to JS after he died and the story evolved. Thank you for your great work!
I can see you and Sister Hyatt and Sister Horning and Sister Wynne all co-producing a Netflix mini-series explaining the whole history of lies and deceit,
@MichelleBStone I really think there are thousands of members of the church who are searching for truth who would love to watch this and have their eyes opened to the truth. ❤
This is so good Michelle!! Thank you for all the hard work you do and God Bless you for it. I pray you will hold strong and extra angels will watch over and guide you as you continue to expose the truth ❤
I would love for you to continue to do the short videos to catch the attention of people who won’t invest in the long podcasts. I absolutely love all of the information, but we live in a world where attention needs to be grabbed quickly and concisely. More people need to be drawn into this topic.
Great detective work, Michelle! The polygamy narrative continues to be unraveled by you, Gwendolyn, Whitney, Jeremy, and many others who are looking into source documents, and not stopping at the church-manual level that too many of us took for granted... until 2 years ago, i had never considered that i had been lied to and didn't even think it was necessary to look at primary sources! The tide is shifting, and more and more of us are not believing any statement or quote until researching first!❤
Give us a list of legitimate historians who have published on the subject of Mormon polygamy who agree with Michelle's assertion that Joseph Smith did not originate or practice polygamy. None of the people you listed are credible historians. They are apologists/propagandists. As an example of their work, a few months ago a friend loaned me a copy of Whitney Horning's book. I knew it was a crock of crap before I even read a word of it, solely from seeing Whitney's appearances on Michelle's videos. I opened the book to a random page, and this was literally the first line I read on page 226: "There is no viable evidence dated before his death on June 27, 1844 which proves Joseph was a polygamist." In actual fact, there is enough evidence to fill a book the length of Whitney's. If you will scroll through this comments section, you will see examples that I have provided. It was well-known in Nauvoo by the time of Joseph's death that he was polygamy's originator. Every person in Nauvoo who had heard about polygamy said that they learned it personally from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. That includes all of the people who accepted polygamy and practiced it, as well as those who opposed it and worked to abolish it. Joseph's and Hyrum's deceitful denials of polygamy were the prime cause of their deaths. But Whitney and Michelle and Jeremy don't accept as "viable" any historical evidence which contradicts their pre-determined conclusions.
@ Well she does get thumbs up for effort anyways. In fact, it's a good teaching tool to show our kids what goes on with people who are in route of apostasy and trying to change the church to how THEY would like. Not how it has been. Thumbs down though for the priestcraft involved. Boooo! :>)
@@randyjordan5521perhaps what you meant to say is “professional historians.” You can be a very expert historian without a degree. I know, I know, you have lots to say on the matter. But the contemporary documents don’t support what you are saying.
Nice episode! Very well done. Thank you for taking the time to cover this evidence. On a personal note, I don’t mind however long an episode is. The time really doesn’t matter. No need to rush any of the evidence. I would rather hear all of the evidence given full and sufficient time, no matter how long it takes, then get something rushed at the end. You may not have had time to go over the Andrew Jenson wives list (Document 1), but that would have been another piece of interesting evidence to cover in this episode about Malissa Lott. Jenson was gathering this list of wives for his 1887 Historical Record article. Brian Hales’ treatment of the Jenson list in his Joseph Smith’s Polygamy books seems to provide contradictory information about it. In Volume 1, p. 111 he seems to say that Jenson interviewed Eliza R. Snow for the whole time and then turned it over to Snow at some point who wrote additional wives herself. The picture of Document 1 on page 112 indicates that it was Eliza R. Snow who wrote Malissa Lott’s name. However, in Volume 2, p. 263, Hales’ states that Jenson was conversing with Malissa for the first section of Document 1. He states on page 263 “It appears that Jenson himself added Malissa’s name in the thirteenth position on the list, but did so at a later time using a different pencil.” Hales’ Joseph Smith’s Polygamy website also indicates that Malissa “dictated in “First list of wives,” Document #1, Andrew Jenson Papers”. The picture of Document 1 in Volume 2, p. 266-267 shows Malissa Lott’s name in a different pencil, but the handwriting does appear to be Jenson’s and not Eliza R. Snow’s as indicated in the picture on page 112 in Volume 1. The very interesting thing about Document 1 is that Malissa Lott apparently never mentioned to Jenson to add her own name to the list of wives of Joesph Smith when dictating to Andrew Jenson because her name does not appear on the list at the time when Malissa was dictating to Jenson. It was apparently added later but before Eliza R. Snow continued the list herself. Maybe it was just assumed, but it certainly is interesting.
Thank you for sharing that fantastic information! And yes, it is always a challenge to know how in-depth to go and how long the episodes can be. I get feedback in both directions 😂 But it is very good to hear that you would prefer getting all of the information, despite it taking more time. Thank you
Andrew Jenson was able to compile his list in the 1880s because so many people had provided legal affidavits or memoirs of their dealings with Joseph Smith and polygamy. For example, you mentioned Eliza R. Snow. Here is her own memoir: "In Nauvoo I first understood that the practice of plurality of wives was to be introduced into the church. The subject was very repugnant to my feelings - so directly was it in opposition to my educated prepossessions, that it seemed as though all the prejudices of my ancestors for generations past congregated around me. But when I reflected that I was living in the Dispensation of the fulness of times, embracing all other Dispensations, surely Plural Marriage must necessarily be included, and I consoled myself with the idea that it was far in the distance, and beyond the period of my mortal existence. It was not long however, after I received the first intimation, before the announcement reached me that the “set time” had come - that God had commanded his servants to establish the order, by taking additional wives - I knew that God … was speaking. … As I increased in knowledge concerning the principle and design of Plural Marriage, I grew in love with it. … I was sealed to the Prophet, Joseph Smith, for time and eternity, in accordance with the Celestial Law of Marriage which God has revealed - the ceremony being performed by a servant of the Most High - authorized to officiate in sacred ordinances. This, one of the most important circumstances of my life, I have never had cause to regret."
Your strength is your extensive research and thorough explanation of all these topics. This also exposes the trolls who hate on these video without even watching them 5 minutes after they are posted! 😂 Nice work!
The temple lot case transcript (along with the judge's ruling) is one of the most interesting things I've ever read as LDS. It turns out this entire dispute had already been leveled with many of the same arguments 150 years ago - and with key players still alive to testify! I found that the LDS church leadership, the parade of supposed polygamous wives, and other key witnesses like Kingsbury mostly came off looking pretty bad, with several of them obviously untruthful. Looking forward to your full coverage of that case.
If the Temple Lot case had never occurred, that would not change the evidence which shows that Joseph Smith originated plural marriage in Nauvoo. Dozens of people testified to that decades before the Temple Lot case ever happened.
This is the good stuff. Keep it up Michelle. Joseph Smith III memoirs are definitely worth reading and, as someone who is trying to figure out the truth of these things, I cannot help but sympathize with his search. He's generally in the same boat as us now on this issue.
“With Elder Willett Sister Melissa had seven children, of whom four are yet living. Although now somewhat advanced in years, she is still bright and active, and occupies a prominent position in the Lehi Female Relief Society. She is ever unflinching in her testimony of what she knows to be true, and states in the most positive terms, and without any hesitation, that she was sealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet on the above named date, and became, in the full meaning of the term, his wife, according to the sacred order of celestial marriage. She further states that when she was married to Ira Jones Willes, he fully understood that he was marrying a widow of Joseph Smith, the martyred Prophet; that their association together would end with this life, and that in the morning of the resurrection she would pass from him to the society of her deceased husband”
Joseph Smith III was 12 years old when his father was killed. Maybe you should read the memoirs of the 130 or so people who were adults in Nauvoo when they learned about polygamy directly from Joseph Smith Jr.
The comments section is so discouraging. Joseph Smith said that Mormonism is the search for truth. We should all be interested in the truth whatever it is. And our highest priority should be treating each other with the love and respect that our creator has for each of us. The spirit of many of the comments here is not in alignment with the spirit of God. Since when was being right more important than being kind? That being said, Michelle, I appreciate how you carefully weigh the evidence and don’t jump to conclusions. Thank you for sharing your time and talents with us.
Again, this kind of scrutiny just goes to show that there is still more to be written. This type of investigation, like Hyatt’s work, should give Hales and Compton good reason to publish corrections. Good scholarship demands that previously published factual errors be corrected.
1:31:50 Wow, it seems like Malissa was projecting here! I’m sure some polygamist wives would be afraid to speak candidly in the presence of their husband (especially abusive men like Joseph F. Smith), but all sources I’ve read show that Bidamon was loving and kind to Emma and the children (besides his later affair).
I encourage you to read the writings of David Hyrum Smith ( Joseph and Emma’s youngest son). He wrote extensively how abusive Louis Bidamon was and how he hated being raised in a saloon. He even lamented that he preferred death to Louis Bidamon.
@@cameronsmith5786Source? If you’re referring to his poem Two Fates, Bidamon wasn’t the subject. David Hyrum wrote to him cordially after the fact in 1871, congratulating him on his city magistrate position. Alexander called him “Pa Bidamon.” Joseph III said, “Our step father is as good as a step father can be. He loves us all as well as he does his own children.” Bidamon wrote many sweet letters to Emma while away in California, calling her “my Love.” She wrote back, “My dear Lewis, I have scarcely enjoyed any good thing since you left home.” According to the John Whitmer Historical Association Journal, “David loved him (Bidamon) and was loved in return. The relationship between father and stepson does not seem to be a contributing factor of David’s later illness.” If you have a source that contradicts these quotes, please share.
I've been going back through all your videos to make a ready reference. Your videos have gotten better. This is a good one. Also, is your Facebook group still active? I've requested to join but never heard back.
Si lo borro es porque sabe que su conclusión no es tan cierta y puede ser derribada a tierra... Y ella sabe que tú lo puedes hacer con pruebas... Dios te bendiga..
With Elder Willett Sister Melissa had seven children, of whom four are yet living. Although now somewhat advanced in years, she is still bright and active, and occupies a prominent position in the Lehi Female Relief Society. She is ever unflinching in her testimony of what she knows to be true, and states in the most positive terms, and without any hesitation, that she was sealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet on the above named date, and became, in the full meaning of the term, his wife, according to the sacred order of celestial marriage. She further states that when she was married to Ira Jones Willes, he fully understood that he was marrying a widow of Joseph Smith, the martyred Prophet; that their association together would end with this life, and that in the morning of the resurrection she would pass from him to the society of her deceased husband
Kim, maybe you can help Malissa out on her testimony. Which ceremony was used when she was "married or sealed" to Joseph? The canonized ceremony in section 101 (the statement on marriage?) Or the not canonized or publicized section 132? (Which The Seer said required the first wife to place the hand of the new wife into her husband's hand?) Malissa got really tripped up on this. Do you have the answers she wasn't able to come up with? And what do you do about her claiming she hadn't been married to anyone else when both the temple records and the church records plainly show that she was both married to, and divorced from, John Milton Bernhisel? I have several more questions, but let's start with these. I am looking forward to hearing your answers.
@ The only way for your narrative to work is if you malign, defame, and accuse the women without evidence of lying and conspiring with Brigham Young. You are devoted to destroying faith and testimony. How you judge these women is how you will be judged. Every idle word and contradiction you will hav ever made will be judged with the same degree of harshness that you judge the historical record which will be never be perfect. What is perfect are the temple records and the record of Malissa and Joseph Smith marriage sealing by divine authority. Section 101 is not revelation from God. It wasn’t even written by Joseph Smith. I know you know this but misrepresent the truth to your gullible and blind followers because all you know how to do is lie. The 1835 statement on marriage served as the church’s formal declaration of the “rules and regulations,” so that Joseph Smith and other church leaders could perform CIVIL marriages under Ohio State Law. • The fact that the Article of Marriage Addressed civil or legal marriage under State Law is plainly noted in opening sentence of the opening paragraph in the Article of Marriage which states: ◦ “According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies: therefore we believe, that all marriages in this church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, should be solemnized in a public meeting…” Eternal Marriage as sanctioned by Divine Law and Authority was not introduced in 1835. Eternal Marriage which includes Plural Marriage was introduced in Nauvoo in 1841 by the Prophet Joseph Smith. The revelation which the Prophet Joseph received related to the contrasting subject of eternal plural marriage covenants, together with the keys and authority to seal marriage for eternity. Eternal Marriage sealings were not soleminzed in a public meeting because they were not sanctioned by civil law but were to be performed as a sacred temple ordinance.
We have 4 very different accounts of the first vision. We have 3 different tools JS possibly used for the translation of the BOM. We know for sure the Book of Abraham is not a not a translation of papyri written on by the hand of Abraham. We know JS was part of a secret society outside the church and established the council of 50 a secret society within the church. I think JS is deceitful from the beginning. The happiness letter outlines his justification for determining when it is ok to lie, deceive and even kill when necessary.
@@MichelleBStone The people who personally witnessed Joseph Smith's proposition to Nancy Rigdon affirmed that he authored the "Happiness letter." "Smith sent for Miss Ridgon to come to the house of Mrs. Hyde, who lived in the under rooms of the printing-office. Miss Rigdon, inquired of the messenger who came for her what was wanting, and the only reply was, that Smith wanted to see her. General Bennett came to Miss Rigdon, and cautioned her, and advised her not to place too much reliance on REVELATION; but did not enlighten her on the object of Smith, but advised her to go down to Mrs. Hyde's, and see Smith. She accordingly went, and Smith took her into another room, and LOCKED THE DOOR, and then stated to her that he had had an affection for her for several years, and wished that she should be his; that the Lord was well pleased with this matter, for he had got a REVELATION on the subject, and God had given him all the blessings of Jacob, &c. &c., and that there was no sin in it whatever; but, if she had any scruples of conscience about the matter, he would marry her PRIVATELY, and enjoined her to secrecy, &c. &c. She repulsed him, and was about to raise the neighbors if he did not unlock the door and let her out; and she left him with disgust, and came home and told her father of the transaction; upon which Smith was sent for. He came. She told the tale in the presence of all the family, and to Smith's face. I was present. Smith attempted to deny it at first, and face her down with the lie; but she told the facts with so much earnestness, and THE FACT OF A LETTER BEING PRESENT, WHICH HE HAD CAUSED TO BE WRITTEN TO HER, ON THE SAME SUBJECT, the day after the attempt made on her virtue, breathing the same spirit, and which he had fondly hoped was DESTROYED, -- all came with such force that he would not withstand the testimony; and he then and there acknowledge that every word of Miss Rigdon's testimony was true. Now for his excuse, which he made for such a base attempt, and for using the name of the Lord in vain, on that occasion. HE WISHED TO ASCERTAIN WHETHER SHE WAS VIRTUOUS OR NOT, AND TOOK THAT COURSE TO LEARN THE FACTS!!! I would say, sir, that I have reason to believe General Bennett's story in his disclosures of Smith's rascality; although I am not a witness to ALL of the facts, yet I am to SOME. I liked to have forgotten to state that the affair with Miss Rigdon was the CAUSE of Smith's coming out so on Bennett, he having suspicions that BENNETT HAD CAUTIONED HER ON THE MATTER -- and he was further afraid that Bennett would make disclosures of OTHER MATTERS." ---George W. Robinson, July 27, 1842.
"On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---Sidney Rigdon, March 15, 1845. "They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---Sidney Rigdon, June, 1846.
I didn't know Sidney was a prophet of God...... I also thought you considered him to be an apostate that left the faith? If he didn't follow Brigham why are we choosing his words over joseph's?
With figures like the twelve who were promulgating early on the idea of origination of their doctrine in Joseph and Hyrum, it’s not strange for Sydney to think it might have been the case. Rigdon makes no mention of first hand knowledge from Joseph or Hyrum.
@@latterdayindependence LOL. Sidney Ridgon was intimately aware of Joseph's and Hyrum's instigation of polygamy, seeing as how Joseph propositioned his own 19 year old daughter Nancy in 1842: "Smith sent for Miss Ridgon to come to the house of Mrs. Hyde, who lived in the under rooms of the printing-office. Miss Rigdon, inquired of the messenger who came for her what was wanting, and the only reply was, that Smith wanted to see her. General Bennett came to Miss Rigdon, and cautioned her, and advised her not to place too much reliance on REVELATION; but did not enlighten her on the object of Smith, but advised her to go down to Mrs. Hyde's, and see Smith. She accordingly went, and Smith took her into another room, and LOCKED THE DOOR, and then stated to her that he had had an affection for her for several years, and wished that she should be his; that the Lord was well pleased with this matter, for he had got a REVELATION on the subject, and God had given him all the blessings of Jacob, &c. &c., and that there was no sin in it whatever; but, if she had any scruples of conscience about the matter, he would marry her PRIVATELY, and enjoined her to secrecy, &c. &c. She repulsed him, and was about to raise the neighbors if he did not unlock the door and let her out; and she left him with disgust, and came home and told her father of the transaction; upon which Smith was sent for. He came. She told the tale in the presence of all the family, and to Smith's face. I was present. Smith attempted to deny it at first, and face her down with the lie; but she told the facts with so much earnestness, and THE FACT OF A LETTER BEING PRESENT, WHICH HE HAD CAUSED TO BE WRITTEN TO HER, ON THE SAME SUBJECT, the day after the attempt made on her virtue, breathing the same spirit, and which he had fondly hoped was DESTROYED, -- all came with such force that he would not withstand the testimony; and he then and there acknowledge that every word of Miss Rigdon's testimony was true. Now for his excuse, which he made for such a base attempt, and for using the name of the Lord in vain, on that occasion. HE WISHED TO ASCERTAIN WHETHER SHE WAS VIRTUOUS OR NOT, AND TOOK THAT COURSE TO LEARN THE FACTS!!! I would say, sir, that I have reason to believe General Bennett's story in his disclosures of Smith's rascality; although I am not a witness to ALL of the facts, yet I am to SOME. I liked to have forgotten to state that the affair with Miss Rigdon was the CAUSE of Smith's coming out so on Bennett, he having suspicions that BENNETT HAD CAUTIONED HER ON THE MATTER -- and he was further afraid that Bennett would make disclosures of OTHER MATTERS."---George W. Robinson, July 27, 1842.
@@latterdayindependence "May 13. This day Sidney Rigdon came to my house and said that he came fully authorized to negotiate terms of peace. I told him to make his proposition. He said it was that if we would let all difficulties drop that we (Wilson Law, my wife Jane Law, R. D. Foster and myself[)] should be restored to our standing in the Church and to all our offices, and they would publish it in the papers. We told him that we had not been cut off from the Church legally, and therefore did not ask to be restored. He said that, he knew the proceedings were illegal and very wrong, and said they would publish that fact to the world if we won’t be satisfied. He said they wanted peace. I told him that if they wanted peace they could have it on the following conditions, That Joseph Smith would acknowledge publicly that he had taught and practised the doctrine of the plurality of wives, that he brought a revelation supporting the doctrine, and that he should own the whole system (revelation and all) to be from Hell; to acknowledge also that he had lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and had found her a virtuous woman, and that the persecution against me and my friends was unjust; if Smith and his followers will entirely cease from their abominations and fully undeceive the people as to those things, then I would agree to cease hostilities, otherwise we would publish all to the world."---William Law diary entry, May 13, 1844.
@@randyjordan5521 if this contemporaneous evidence isn't enough there will never be enough evidence to convince somebody that their beloved Prophet was a sexual predator and deviant
The only written record I will reference are my own medical records, I died March 15, 2013 by MI (heart attack) left anterior descending (the widow maker) in the St. Luke's Meridian ER. I was dead 28 minutes. During that time I met with the Lord, I saw many of my ancestors, I saw the creation similar to Moses' description of his experience. I also saw many of the enlightened ones the apostles, the Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed, many prophets prior to Christ, and Joseph Smith. They all are teaching those of their generations who Jesus Christ is and what He did. I also saw many families made up of one husband with more than one wife. I saw husbands with only one wife as well. Those with one wife were not condemned those with multiple wives were not under condemnation either. Your inquiry into this subject is admirable but your conclusions are misguided and extremely divisive and needs to stop. I am not saying this as a prophet or a guy wanting multiple wives. I am sharing this as one who has died and returned. The other message is you are looking at the entire situation through mortal eyes. As President Nelson says, "think Celestial."
We do have so much evidence about Josephs polygamy and that is why all the REAL historians and the churchs essay, but you eoukd orefer to just bury your head in the sand snd cherry pick items that you think would help your false apistate cause!!!
“for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid.” The “real” historians is who I believe the Lord is referring to here.
History is full of examples where the "experts" were later proven wrong. I have listened to hours on both sides of the discussion - clearly messy and debatable - but, for me personally, I see those teaching that Joseph started polygamy taking items out of context and cherry picking significantly more than those on the other side.... but that is just my personal observation...
Michelle, I think you would gain a lot of credibility by taking a middle position. Which is: Joseph may have authored 132, and the Nauvoo Expositor affidavits may contain elements of truth. But if so, he made mistakes. AND: Joseph's polygamy was exaggerated to justify others practicing it and here is why......(keep doing what you are doing.) Your all or nothing approach is hurting our cause of eradicating polygamy from the church.
@rowanwhiteleaf443 I didn't say she needed to claim Joseph was a polygamist. I said that she needs to make it clear that even if Joseph authored 132 and flirted with polygamy it does not change her central message that polygamy was a mistake and that the extent of Joseph's polygamy was exaggerated. Joseph was a man and not a God.
@@jaredvaughan1665 Why would anybody claim Joseph authored 132 if it isn't true? Why would you say his involvement in polygamy was exaggerated when the truth is his only involvement was to oppose polygamy? Telling lies doesn't enhance your credibility. Or maybe you believe the lies and just think she is wrong? If so just say that.
" Soon after Joseph came in and spoke to one of the clerks, and then went up stairs followed by Young. Immediately after Kimball came in. "Now, Martha," said he, "the Prophet has come; come up stairs." I went, and we found Young and the Prophet alone. I was introduced to the Prophet by Young. Joseph offered me his seat, and, to my astonishment, the moment I was seated Joseph and Kimball walked out of the room, and left me with Young, who arose, locked the door, closed the window, and drew the curtain. He then came and sat before me and said, "This is our private room, Martha." "Indeed, sir," said I, "I must be highly honored to be permitted to enter it." He smiled, and then proceeded -- "Sister Martha, I want to ask you a few questions; will you answer them?" "Yes, sir," said I. "And will you promise not to mention them to any one?" "If it is your desire, sir," said I, "I will not." "And you will not think any the worse of me for it, will you, Martha?" said he. "No sir," I replied. "Well," said he, "what are your feelings towards me?" -- I replied, "My feelings are just the same towards you that they ever were, sir.." "But, to come to the point more closely," said he, "have not you an affection for me, that, were it lawful and right, you could accept of me for your husband and companion?" My feelings at that moment were indescribable. God only knows them. What, thought I, are these men that I thought almost perfection itself, deceivers. and is all my fancied happiness but a dream? 'Twas even so; but my next thought was, which is the best way for me to act at this time? If I say no, they may do as they think proper; and to say yes, I never would. So I considered it best to ask for time to think and pray about it. I therefore said, "If it was lawful and right perhaps I might; but you know, sir, it is not." "Well, but," said he, "brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom; and if you will have me in this world, I will have you in that which is to come, and brother Joseph will marry us here to-day, and you can go home this evening, and your parents will not know any thing about it."---Letter from Martha Brotherton, published in newspapers on July 13, 1842.
You know this was debunked forever ago!! I mean I saw a pro polygamist episode few years ago that even debunked this by her sister who said she was one of the biggest story tellers
Is this the same Martha, who later married Kimball? "Heritage A OPN V 19 MCBRIDE, Martha Knight Kimball The ninth child of Daniel and Abigail Head Hebride, was born on March 17, 1805, at Cheater Washington Washington County, New York. Developing into a sainty young woman with gray-blue eyes and dark hair, Martha became the bride July 26, 1826, of Vinson (Vincent) Enight. a thrifty farser and son of Dr. Rudolphus and Razpah Lee Knight, Martha, as an industrious young wife, operated her spinning wheel and plied her needle on the woolen goods and linen made from the wool and flax grown on the family Earn, developing her skill to perfection. On March 24, 1834, at Perrysburg, New York, Vinson and Martha joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Selling their property at great sacrifice in the spring of 1835, they moved to Kirtland, Ohio, Ohio, with their children, Alsirs, Raapah, Adaline and James, where soon Vinson became presiding bishop of the Church, position he did not hold long for he passed avay in Sauvoo July 31, 1842, Active in attending to the needs of the poor and afflicted in Nauvoo, Kartha belonged to the sewing circle and was a charted member of the first Relief Society organized there March 17, 1842, on her thirty-seventy birthday anniversary. Hartha vas sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith at Nauvoo a short time before his death. January 26, 1846 she wan married to Reber C. Kimball in the Kauvoo Tenple. Leaving Nauvoo at the time of the exodus, Martha traveled to Winter Quarters with her children and son-in-law, Gilbert Belnap, to whom her fourteen-year-old daughter, Adeline, had been married December 21, 1845. They left the Hissouri River June 15, 1850, in the Jonathan Foote Company and arrived in the Salt Lake Valley. September 17th of that year, Martha became member of the Heber C. Kimball family with whom she resided until she moved to Hooper, after which she lived in that community and Ogden. The following account was taken from the Ogden Standard Examiner at the time of Marths's death November 20, 1901. She was the mother of six children by her first husband, Hr. Knight, and three of these survive her, all of them between the ages of seventy and eighty years. They are Mrs. Aiminra Banson, Mrs. Adeline Belnap, and James Knight. She had a great sany grandchildren and great grandchildren and several great-great grandchildren. The physical strength and endurance of Mrs. Knight was wellnigh marvelous. For nearly twenty years she had not used spectacles. Her needlework was a model for fineness amongst all her acquaintances for the past fifty years, She was a great reader, particularly of the daily papers, reading every word of telegraphic news, and during the Spanish-American War she was regarded on one ne of the best informed persons in Weber the military operations of the contending forces. County Martha was sustained as first counselor to Delilah Fierce Falmer, the first president of the first Belief Society organized in Weber County on the Tabernacle, Square, January 6, 1856. she and he her daughter Adaline were active in assisting in the relief of the suffering at all times. She was also one of the workers in the st. George Temple for several years." (Found this on Family Search. My ancestor was also married to Joseph Smith).
@ "If Joe wishes to make a spiritual wife of a certain young lady, he would send one of these women to her. The old women, would tell the young lady, that she had had a vision, in which it was revealed to her that she was to be sealed up to Joe, (or his friend as the case might be) as a spiritual wife, to be his in time and eternity. This would astonish the young innocent, but scripture would soon be resorted to, to prove the correctness of the doctrine, and that it was proper in the sight of the Lord. Soon after this Joe would appear, and tell the lady that the Lord had revealed to him that Mrs. so & so, had had a vision concerning her, and had been to see her. Not suspecting any collusion the young lady would be astonished, and being strong in the faith, she could have no doubt but that Joe spoke by authority of God, He would then ply his arguments, and with the utmost sanctity speak "in the name of the Lord" and say that at such a time, and at such a place it had been revealed to him that she should be his or his friend's, in time and eternity. If she objected he would quote his scripture and his revelations, and thus by playing on her superstitious credulity, and artfully at the same time inflaming her passions he seldom failed of his object. Being once successful, he held the fear of exposure over her as a rod to prevent rebellion from his allegiance. When, as happened in the cases of Miss Martha Brotherton and Miss Nancy Rigdon, his overtures were rejected with disdain and exposure threatened he would set a hundred hell hounds on them, to destroy their reputations."---Joseph H. Jackson, June, 1844.
@ "Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 'Messenger and Advocate' reported that Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should sustain Smith, advised that 'we must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.' Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage..... "The 27 August 1842 'Wasp,' for example, branded Martha H. Brotherton a 'mean harlot,' and Nancy Rigdon suffered the same treatment after she opposed Smith's polygamous proposals. Stephen Markham, a close friend of Smith, certified.....that he saw Nancy Rigdon in a compromising situation with Bennett....George W. Robinson, on Nancy's behalf, countered with a sworn statement on 3 September 1842 that Markham was lying.....Sidney Rigdon also swore out a refutation and employed an attorney to sue Markham..... "After Joseph Smith's death in 1844, Orson Hyde attempted to further blacken Nancy Rigdon's character in order to tarnish her father's claim to church leadership. Her conduct was 'notorious in this city,' Hyde charged; she was 'regarded generally, little, if any better, than a public prostitute.' " ---("Mormon Polygamy: A History," Richard can Wagoner, pp. 38-39.)
@latterdayindependence but is it really that important of an issue whether or not Joseph Smith introduced and practiced polygamy because the church adopted it for the next 50 years and Michelle is still a member of that exact same church
Dear Michelle. The only thing which you engage in every week that is factual and not speculation, inuendo or hopeful at best is, Joseph Smith was not a practicing polygamist. He simply never lived the life of one but that is very old news now.
Speaking of fanciful stories..... I wonder how long this one will fare. Until the second coming when Jesus tells Michelle how to read Jacob 2:30 plainly?? 😇
@@JakobPGrau Hi Jakob. The plain context of the verse is: The Nephites were to heed everything said in the chapter regarding raising raise up seed unto the Lord or He will command His people otherwise. See??..... "otherwise they shall hearken unto these things” (Jacob 2:30). In other words, the Lord's general command was to not participate in plural marriage. Nothing plainer than that my friend. :>)
@ That's what the mainstream Christians tell us all the time. LOL It's so plainly written it doesn't take much discernment. Remember... its "THE PLAIN AND PRECIOUS TRUTHS" that always get attacked and twisted into word salads. :>)
@@godsoffspring4195I’d say hanging your support of polygamy on one poorly interpreted phrase, ignoring everything else, is grasping at straws. This interpretation is antithetical to all the public and private words of the Prophet Joseph Smith. If it were otherwise, we wouldn’t have to just trust word of mouth from Brigham Young and his crew.
I absolutely adore it when Michelle's detractors post their comments 20 minutes after she uploads a 2-hour video. To me, that says it all.
Zero effort to investigate, zero desire to consider anything that might shed light on historical discrepancies, nothing but a stubborn hold on their preconceptions.
Thank you, gentlemen, for illustrating that so clearly.
IKR 🤣. Poor men fighting to their very destruction to have their concubines 😅. They couldn't care less about Joseph, the church or the gospel.
They only care to be right at all costs.
Amen! I noticed that today, too!
I have studied the history of Mormon polygamy extensively for 28 years. I have bought and read pretty much every scholarly book published on the subject. Every serious, legitimate historian who has published on the issue of Mormon polygamy beginning with Fawn Brodie's 1946 bio concurs that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy.
By the time of Joseph Smith's death, about 130 people in Nauvoo had heard of polygamy. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM who related their experience with it stated that they learned of it personally from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. That includes all of those who accepted polygamy and practiced it as well as those who opposed it and worked to abolish it. Here is what a legitimate historian wrote on this issue:
"From Joseph Smith’s first documented plural marriage in 1841 until his death more than three years later, some twenty-eight men and 106 women (as civil and plural wives) entered the prophet’s order of celestial matrimony.[1] Given the secrecy surrounding Smith’s controversial (and illegal) practice, the exact number of these earliest polygamists may never be known. However, enough information in the form of diaries, letters, auto biographies, reminiscences, affidavits, statements, and family histories has accumulated since the early 1840s-coupled with reasonable inferences and educated guesses-to enable a compelling, albeit tentative, identification...
"The abundant evidence for Joseph Smith’s Nauvoo plural wives was first published in Andrew Jenson, “Plural Marriage,” Historical Record 6 (May 1887): 233-34. Jenson was followed by Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet, 2d ed., rev. and enl. (1945; New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), 457-88; Thomas Milton Tinney, The Royal Family of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Junior (Salt Lake City: Tinney-Green[e] Family Organization Publishing Company, 1973); Danel W. Bachman, “A Study of the Mormon Practice of Plural Marriage before the Death of Joseph Smith” (1975); George D. Smith, “Nauvoo Roots of Mormon Polygamy” (1994); D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (1994), 587-88; and most recently Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness. Although some readers may disagree in a handful of instances with Compton’s identifications of Smith’s Nauvoo wives,[74] I believe he is accurate. In fact, I am persuaded that the evidence allows for an additional four (if not more) plural wives-Mary Houston, Sarah Scott Mulholland, Mary Ann Frost Stearns Pratt, and Phebe Watrous Woodworth-bringing the total of Joseph Smith’s known Nauvoo plural wives to at least thirty-six."
---Identifying the Earliest Mormon Polygamists, 1841-1844, Gary James Bergera.
Exactly! Cue the obsessive, illogical ramblings about the Nauvoo Expositor...
Give us a list of legitimate historians who have published on the subject of Mormon polygamy who agree with Michelle's assertion that Joseph Smith did not originate or practice polygamy.
You found some great information to shed more light. It really is looking more like people were sealed to JS after he died and the story evolved. Thank you for your great work!
I suggest that you scroll through this comments section and read my historical documentation on this subject.
Thank you Michelle!! I so appreciate the time you put into this!!
All of your videos are so important! This one is no exception. Good job and thank you again.
I can see you and Sister Hyatt and Sister Horning and Sister Wynne all co-producing a Netflix mini-series explaining the whole history of lies and deceit,
That would be amazing! 😂
@MichelleBStone I really think there are thousands of members of the church who are searching for truth who would love to watch this and have their eyes opened to the truth. ❤
I absolutely agree!!❤
I suggest that you scroll through this comments section and read my historical documentation on this subject.
Angel studios might be more receptive than Netflix.
Good work! I know I for one can appreciate hearing all sides instead of one narrative. Thank you so much!
Once again, things are not always as they seem. Thank you for going deeper and giving us an honest perspective.
This is so good Michelle!! Thank you for all the hard work you do and God Bless you for it. I pray you will hold strong and extra angels will watch over and guide you as you continue to expose the truth ❤
Brilliant research, as usual. I can always count on you to shine light in the dark, damp, ugly corners of polygamy, exposing the truth.
I would love for you to continue to do the short videos to catch the attention of people who won’t invest in the long podcasts. I absolutely love all of the information, but we live in a world where attention needs to be grabbed quickly and concisely. More people need to be drawn into this topic.
I agree. I can't watch the vast majority of these.
Great detective work, Michelle! The polygamy narrative continues to be unraveled by you, Gwendolyn, Whitney, Jeremy, and many others who are looking into source documents, and not stopping at the church-manual level that too many of us took for granted... until 2 years ago, i had never considered that i had been lied to and didn't even think it was necessary to look at primary sources! The tide is shifting, and more and more of us are not believing any statement or quote until researching first!❤
The Pink Panther. 😆
Give us a list of legitimate historians who have published on the subject of Mormon polygamy who agree with Michelle's assertion that Joseph Smith did not originate or practice polygamy.
None of the people you listed are credible historians. They are apologists/propagandists. As an example of their work, a few months ago a friend loaned me a copy of Whitney Horning's book. I knew it was a crock of crap before I even read a word of it, solely from seeing Whitney's appearances on Michelle's videos. I opened the book to a random page, and this was literally the first line I read on page 226:
"There is no viable evidence dated before his death on June 27, 1844 which proves Joseph was a polygamist."
In actual fact, there is enough evidence to fill a book the length of Whitney's. If you will scroll through this comments section, you will see examples that I have provided. It was well-known in Nauvoo by the time of Joseph's death that he was polygamy's originator. Every person in Nauvoo who had heard about polygamy said that they learned it personally from Joseph or Hyrum Smith. That includes all of the people who accepted polygamy and practiced it, as well as those who opposed it and worked to abolish it. Joseph's and Hyrum's deceitful denials of polygamy were the prime cause of their deaths.
But Whitney and Michelle and Jeremy don't accept as "viable" any historical evidence which contradicts their pre-determined conclusions.
Gotta love the hater contributions making her video spread further 😅
They're actually helping👍😂
@ Well she does get thumbs up for effort anyways. In fact, it's a good teaching tool to show our kids what goes on with people who are in route of apostasy and trying to change the church to how THEY would like. Not how it has been. Thumbs down though for the priestcraft involved. Boooo! :>)
@@randyjordan5521perhaps what you meant to say is “professional historians.” You can be a very expert historian without a degree. I know, I know, you have lots to say on the matter. But the contemporary documents don’t support what you are saying.
Nice episode! Very well done. Thank you for taking the time to cover this evidence. On a personal note, I don’t mind however long an episode is. The time really doesn’t matter. No need to rush any of the evidence. I would rather hear all of the evidence given full and sufficient time, no matter how long it takes, then get something rushed at the end. You may not have had time to go over the Andrew Jenson wives list (Document 1), but that would have been another piece of interesting evidence to cover in this episode about Malissa Lott. Jenson was gathering this list of wives for his 1887 Historical Record article.
Brian Hales’ treatment of the Jenson list in his Joseph Smith’s Polygamy books seems to provide contradictory information about it. In Volume 1, p. 111 he seems to say that Jenson interviewed Eliza R. Snow for the whole time and then turned it over to Snow at some point who wrote additional wives herself. The picture of Document 1 on page 112 indicates that it was Eliza R. Snow who wrote Malissa Lott’s name. However, in Volume 2, p. 263, Hales’ states that Jenson was conversing with Malissa for the first section of Document 1. He states on page 263 “It appears that Jenson himself added Malissa’s name in the thirteenth position on the list, but did so at a later time using a different pencil.” Hales’ Joseph Smith’s Polygamy website also indicates that Malissa “dictated in “First list of wives,” Document #1, Andrew Jenson Papers”. The picture of Document 1 in Volume 2, p. 266-267 shows Malissa Lott’s name in a different pencil, but the handwriting does appear to be Jenson’s and not Eliza R. Snow’s as indicated in the picture on page 112 in Volume 1.
The very interesting thing about Document 1 is that Malissa Lott apparently never mentioned to Jenson to add her own name to the list of wives of Joesph Smith when dictating to Andrew Jenson because her name does not appear on the list at the time when Malissa was dictating to Jenson. It was apparently added later but before Eliza R. Snow continued the list herself. Maybe it was just assumed, but it certainly is interesting.
Thank you for sharing that fantastic information! And yes, it is always a challenge to know how in-depth to go and how long the episodes can be. I get feedback in both directions 😂
But it is very good to hear that you would prefer getting all of the information, despite it taking more time. Thank you
@@MichelleBStone For the record I also don’t mind at all a very long episode.
Andrew Jenson was able to compile his list in the 1880s because so many people had provided legal affidavits or memoirs of their dealings with Joseph Smith and polygamy. For example, you mentioned Eliza R. Snow. Here is her own memoir:
"In Nauvoo I first understood that the practice of plurality of wives was to be introduced into the church. The subject was very repugnant to my feelings - so directly was it in opposition to my educated prepossessions, that it seemed as though all the prejudices of my ancestors for generations past congregated around me. But when I reflected that I was living in the Dispensation of the fulness of times, embracing all other Dispensations, surely Plural Marriage must necessarily be included, and I consoled myself with the idea that it was far in the distance, and beyond the period of my mortal existence. It was not long however, after I received the first intimation, before the announcement reached me that the “set time” had come - that God had commanded his servants to establish the order, by taking additional wives - I knew that God … was speaking. … As I increased in knowledge concerning the principle and design of Plural Marriage, I grew in love with it. …
I was sealed to the Prophet, Joseph Smith, for time and eternity, in accordance with the Celestial Law of Marriage which God has revealed - the ceremony being performed by a servant of the Most High - authorized to officiate in sacred ordinances. This, one of the most important circumstances of my life, I have never had cause to regret."
Your strength is your extensive research and thorough explanation of all these topics.
This also exposes the trolls who hate on these video without even watching them 5 minutes after they are posted! 😂
Nice work!
They're helping to spread her channel 😅👍. Definitely trolls though!! Far too many comments not to be
I suggest that you scroll through this comments section and read my historical documentation on this subject.
The temple lot case transcript (along with the judge's ruling) is one of the most interesting things I've ever read as LDS. It turns out this entire dispute had already been leveled with many of the same arguments 150 years ago - and with key players still alive to testify! I found that the LDS church leadership, the parade of supposed polygamous wives, and other key witnesses like Kingsbury mostly came off looking pretty bad, with several of them obviously untruthful. Looking forward to your full coverage of that case.
If the Temple Lot case had never occurred, that would not change the evidence which shows that Joseph Smith originated plural marriage in Nauvoo. Dozens of people testified to that decades before the Temple Lot case ever happened.
This is the good stuff. Keep it up Michelle. Joseph Smith III memoirs are definitely worth reading and, as someone who is trying to figure out the truth of these things, I cannot help but sympathize with his search. He's generally in the same boat as us now on this issue.
Are you aware that Malissa Lott testified to Joseph Smith III that she was a conjugal wife of his father and Joseph Smith III believed her.
“With Elder Willett Sister Melissa had seven children, of whom four are yet living. Although now somewhat advanced in years, she is still bright and active, and occupies a prominent position in the Lehi Female Relief Society. She is ever unflinching in her testimony of what she knows to be true, and states in the most positive terms, and without any hesitation, that she was sealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet on the above named date, and became, in the full meaning of the term, his wife, according to the sacred order of celestial marriage. She further states that when she was married to Ira Jones Willes, he fully understood that he was marrying a widow of Joseph Smith, the martyred Prophet; that their association together would end with this life, and that in the morning of the resurrection she would pass from him to the society of her deceased husband”
Joseph Smith III was 12 years old when his father was killed. Maybe you should read the memoirs of the 130 or so people who were adults in Nauvoo when they learned about polygamy directly from Joseph Smith Jr.
@@cameronsmith5786 that’s f***ed up
@@randyjordan5521 motivated reasoning,
The comments section is so discouraging. Joseph Smith said that Mormonism is the search for truth. We should all be interested in the truth whatever it is. And our highest priority should be treating each other with the love and respect that our creator has for each of us. The spirit of many of the comments here is not in alignment with the spirit of God. Since when was being right more important than being kind?
That being said, Michelle, I appreciate how you carefully weigh the evidence and don’t jump to conclusions. Thank you for sharing your time and talents with us.
Again, this kind of scrutiny just goes to show that there is still more to be written. This type of investigation, like Hyatt’s work, should give Hales and Compton good reason to publish corrections. Good scholarship demands that previously published factual errors be corrected.
Very thorough. Thank you Michelle.
So interesting and revealing. Thank you for your continued work to let truth come forward.
Rebecca N. Fausett is my 3rd great Grand-aunt! Such a sad story! But she sounds so strong!
Great research! Such important information.
1:31:50 Wow, it seems like Malissa was projecting here! I’m sure some polygamist wives would be afraid to speak candidly in the presence of their husband (especially abusive men like Joseph F. Smith), but all sources I’ve read show that Bidamon was loving and kind to Emma and the children (besides his later affair).
I encourage you to read the writings of David Hyrum Smith ( Joseph and Emma’s youngest son). He wrote extensively how abusive Louis Bidamon was and how he hated being raised in a saloon. He even lamented that he preferred death to Louis Bidamon.
@@cameronsmith5786Source? If you’re referring to his poem Two Fates, Bidamon wasn’t the subject. David Hyrum wrote to him cordially after the fact in 1871, congratulating him on his city magistrate position. Alexander called him “Pa Bidamon.” Joseph III said, “Our step father is as good as a step father can be. He loves us all as well as he does his own children.” Bidamon wrote many sweet letters to Emma while away in California, calling her “my Love.” She wrote back, “My dear Lewis, I have scarcely enjoyed any good thing since you left home.”
According to the John Whitmer Historical Association Journal, “David loved him (Bidamon) and was loved in return. The relationship between father and stepson does not seem to be a contributing factor of David’s later illness.” If you have a source that contradicts these quotes, please share.
Good job on this Michelle! -- John H.
Maybe the reason he didn’t record the grooms name was it was made up and he didn’t want to have such an explicit lie in their family Bible
The desperation of Mormon apologetics is absolutely hilarious
I've been going back through all your videos to make a ready reference. Your videos have gotten better. This is a good one. Also, is your Facebook group still active? I've requested to join but never heard back.
I'll look for your request. What is your fb name?
I sent you a message on your website.
Si lo borro es porque sabe que su conclusión no es tan cierta y puede ser derribada a tierra... Y ella sabe que tú lo puedes hacer con pruebas... Dios te bendiga..
Un comentario sin contexto....
Can anybody point me to the Bible verses in the Joseph Smith translation That proved that God was not happy with the polygamy that was going on?
With Elder Willett Sister Melissa had seven children, of whom four are yet living. Although now somewhat advanced in years, she is still bright and active, and occupies a prominent position in the Lehi Female Relief Society. She is ever unflinching in her testimony of what she knows to be true, and states in the most positive terms, and without any hesitation, that she was sealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet on the above named date, and became, in the full meaning of the term, his wife, according to the sacred order of celestial marriage. She further states that when she was married to Ira Jones Willes, he fully understood that he was marrying a widow of Joseph Smith, the martyred Prophet; that their association together would end with this life, and that in the morning of the resurrection she would pass from him to the society of her deceased husband
Kim, maybe you can help Malissa out on her testimony. Which ceremony was used when she was "married or sealed" to Joseph? The canonized ceremony in section 101 (the statement on marriage?) Or the not canonized or publicized section 132? (Which The Seer said required the first wife to place the hand of the new wife into her husband's hand?) Malissa got really tripped up on this. Do you have the answers she wasn't able to come up with?
And what do you do about her claiming she hadn't been married to anyone else when both the temple records and the church records plainly show that she was both married to, and divorced from, John Milton Bernhisel?
I have several more questions, but let's start with these.
I am looking forward to hearing your answers.
@
The only way for your narrative to work is if you malign, defame, and accuse the women without evidence of lying and conspiring with Brigham Young. You are devoted to destroying faith and testimony.
How you judge these women is how you will be judged. Every idle word and contradiction you will hav ever made will be judged with the same degree of harshness that you judge the historical record which will be never be perfect. What is perfect are the temple records and the record of Malissa and Joseph Smith marriage sealing by divine authority.
Section 101 is not revelation from God. It wasn’t even written by Joseph Smith. I know you know this but misrepresent the truth to your gullible and blind followers because all you know how to do is lie.
The 1835 statement on marriage served as the church’s formal declaration of the “rules and regulations,” so that Joseph Smith and other church leaders could perform CIVIL marriages under Ohio State Law.
• The fact that the Article of Marriage Addressed civil or legal marriage under State Law is plainly noted in opening sentence of the opening paragraph in the Article of Marriage which states:
◦ “According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies: therefore we believe, that all marriages in this church of Christ of Latter Day Saints, should be solemnized in a public meeting…”
Eternal Marriage as sanctioned by Divine Law and Authority was not introduced in 1835. Eternal Marriage which includes Plural Marriage was introduced in Nauvoo in 1841 by the Prophet Joseph Smith.
The revelation which the Prophet Joseph received related to the contrasting subject of eternal plural marriage covenants, together with the keys and authority to seal marriage for eternity. Eternal Marriage sealings were not soleminzed in a public meeting because they were not sanctioned by civil law but were to be performed as a sacred temple ordinance.
We have 4 very different accounts of the first vision.
We have 3 different tools JS possibly used for the translation of the BOM.
We know for sure the Book of Abraham is not a not a translation of papyri written on by the hand of Abraham.
We know JS was part of a secret society outside the church and established the council of 50 a secret society within the church.
I think JS is deceitful from the beginning.
The happiness letter outlines his justification for determining when it is ok to lie, deceive and even kill when necessary.
The Happiness Letter had nothing to do with Joseph Smith. Even many of the professional historians admit that.
@ seems like the only thing we can trust is that he clearly wasn’t a polygamist?
@@MichelleBStone The people who personally witnessed Joseph Smith's proposition to Nancy Rigdon affirmed that he authored the "Happiness letter."
"Smith sent for Miss Ridgon to come to the house of Mrs. Hyde, who lived in the
under rooms of the printing-office. Miss Rigdon, inquired of the messenger who
came for her what was wanting, and the only reply was, that Smith wanted to see
her. General Bennett came to Miss Rigdon, and cautioned her, and advised her
not to place too much reliance on REVELATION; but did not enlighten her on the
object of Smith, but advised her to go down to Mrs. Hyde's, and see Smith. She
accordingly went, and Smith took her into another room, and LOCKED THE DOOR,
and then stated to her that he had had an affection for her for several years,
and wished that she should be his; that the Lord was well pleased with this
matter, for he had got a REVELATION on the subject, and God had given him all
the blessings of Jacob, &c. &c., and that there was no sin in it whatever; but,
if she had any scruples of conscience about the matter, he would marry her
PRIVATELY, and enjoined her to secrecy, &c. &c. She repulsed him, and was about
to raise the neighbors if he did not unlock the door and let her out; and she
left him with disgust, and came home and told her father of the transaction;
upon which Smith was sent for. He came. She told the tale in the presence of
all the family, and to Smith's face. I was present. Smith attempted to deny it
at first, and face her down with the lie; but she told the facts with so much
earnestness, and THE FACT OF A LETTER BEING PRESENT, WHICH HE HAD CAUSED TO BE
WRITTEN TO HER, ON THE SAME SUBJECT, the day after the attempt made on her
virtue, breathing the same spirit, and which he had fondly hoped was DESTROYED,
-- all came with such force that he would not withstand the testimony; and he
then and there acknowledge that every word of Miss Rigdon's testimony was true.
Now for his excuse, which he made for such a base attempt, and for using the
name of the Lord in vain, on that occasion. HE WISHED TO ASCERTAIN WHETHER SHE
WAS VIRTUOUS OR NOT, AND TOOK THAT COURSE TO LEARN THE FACTS!!! I would say,
sir, that I have reason to believe General Bennett's story in his disclosures
of Smith's rascality; although I am not a witness to ALL of the facts, yet I am
to SOME. I liked to have forgotten to state that the affair with Miss Rigdon
was the CAUSE of Smith's coming out so on Bennett, he having suspicions that
BENNETT HAD CAUTIONED HER ON THE MATTER -- and he was further afraid that
Bennett would make disclosures of OTHER MATTERS."
---George W. Robinson, July 27, 1842.
BINGO
@@MichelleBStone just don't let Emma know.
So what????
"On Thursday evening we gave the history of Nauvoo, and the events that led to the death of the Smiths, which, of course, we traced to the introduction of the spiritual wife system; for all that know any thing about it, that it was the introduction of that system which led to the death of the Smiths, and that if that system had not been introduced, they might have been living men to-day."---Sidney Rigdon, March 15, 1845.
"They introduced a base system of polygamy, worse by far than that of the heathen; this system of corruption brought a train of evils with it, which terminated in their entire ruin. After this system was introduced, being in opposition [to] the laws of the land, they, had to put truth at defiance to conceal it, and in order to do it, perjury was often practiced. This system was introduced by the Smiths some time before their death, and was the thing which put them into the power of their enemies, and was the immediate cause of their death."---Sidney Rigdon, June, 1846.
I didn't know Sidney was a prophet of God...... I also thought you considered him to be an apostate that left the faith? If he didn't follow Brigham why are we choosing his words over joseph's?
With figures like the twelve who were promulgating early on the idea of origination of their doctrine in Joseph and Hyrum, it’s not strange for Sydney to think it might have been the case. Rigdon makes no mention of first hand knowledge from Joseph or Hyrum.
@@latterdayindependence LOL. Sidney Ridgon was intimately aware of Joseph's and Hyrum's instigation of polygamy, seeing as how Joseph propositioned his own 19 year old daughter Nancy in 1842:
"Smith sent for Miss Ridgon to come to the house of Mrs. Hyde, who lived in the
under rooms of the printing-office. Miss Rigdon, inquired of the messenger who
came for her what was wanting, and the only reply was, that Smith wanted to see
her. General Bennett came to Miss Rigdon, and cautioned her, and advised her
not to place too much reliance on REVELATION; but did not enlighten her on the
object of Smith, but advised her to go down to Mrs. Hyde's, and see Smith. She
accordingly went, and Smith took her into another room, and LOCKED THE DOOR,
and then stated to her that he had had an affection for her for several years,
and wished that she should be his; that the Lord was well pleased with this
matter, for he had got a REVELATION on the subject, and God had given him all
the blessings of Jacob, &c. &c., and that there was no sin in it whatever; but,
if she had any scruples of conscience about the matter, he would marry her
PRIVATELY, and enjoined her to secrecy, &c. &c. She repulsed him, and was about
to raise the neighbors if he did not unlock the door and let her out; and she
left him with disgust, and came home and told her father of the transaction;
upon which Smith was sent for. He came. She told the tale in the presence of
all the family, and to Smith's face. I was present. Smith attempted to deny it
at first, and face her down with the lie; but she told the facts with so much
earnestness, and THE FACT OF A LETTER BEING PRESENT, WHICH HE HAD CAUSED TO BE
WRITTEN TO HER, ON THE SAME SUBJECT, the day after the attempt made on her
virtue, breathing the same spirit, and which he had fondly hoped was DESTROYED,
-- all came with such force that he would not withstand the testimony; and he
then and there acknowledge that every word of Miss Rigdon's testimony was true.
Now for his excuse, which he made for such a base attempt, and for using the
name of the Lord in vain, on that occasion. HE WISHED TO ASCERTAIN WHETHER SHE
WAS VIRTUOUS OR NOT, AND TOOK THAT COURSE TO LEARN THE FACTS!!! I would say,
sir, that I have reason to believe General Bennett's story in his disclosures
of Smith's rascality; although I am not a witness to ALL of the facts, yet I am
to SOME. I liked to have forgotten to state that the affair with Miss Rigdon
was the CAUSE of Smith's coming out so on Bennett, he having suspicions that
BENNETT HAD CAUTIONED HER ON THE MATTER -- and he was further afraid that
Bennett would make disclosures of OTHER MATTERS."---George W. Robinson, July 27, 1842.
@@latterdayindependence "May 13. This day Sidney Rigdon came to my house and said that he came fully authorized to negotiate terms of peace. I told him to make his proposition. He said it was that if we would let all difficulties drop that we (Wilson Law, my wife Jane Law, R. D. Foster and myself[)] should be restored to our standing in the Church and to all our offices, and they would publish it in the papers. We told him that we had not been cut off from the Church legally, and therefore did not ask to be restored. He said that, he knew the proceedings were illegal and very wrong, and said they would publish that fact to the world if we won’t be satisfied. He said they wanted peace. I told him that if they wanted peace they could have it on the following conditions, That Joseph Smith would acknowledge publicly that he had taught and practised the doctrine of the plurality of wives, that he brought a revelation supporting the doctrine, and that he should own the whole system (revelation and all) to be from Hell; to acknowledge also that he had lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and had found her a virtuous woman, and that the persecution against me and my friends was unjust; if Smith and his followers will entirely cease from their abominations and fully undeceive the people as to those things, then I would agree to cease hostilities, otherwise we would publish all to the world."---William Law diary entry, May 13, 1844.
@@randyjordan5521 if this contemporaneous evidence isn't enough there will never be enough evidence to convince somebody that their beloved Prophet was a sexual predator and deviant
Y’all are like flat earthers. The more it’s proven the more you dig your heels in. Almost admirable.
It doesn’t have to be popular to be true. Also, the proof you speak of doesn’t hold water. It’s a leaky basket.
The only written record I will reference are my own medical records, I died March 15, 2013 by MI (heart attack) left anterior descending (the widow maker) in the St. Luke's Meridian ER. I was dead 28 minutes. During that time I met with the Lord, I saw many of my ancestors, I saw the creation similar to Moses' description of his experience. I also saw many of the enlightened ones the apostles, the Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed, many prophets prior to Christ, and Joseph Smith. They all are teaching those of their generations who Jesus Christ is and what He did. I also saw many families made up of one husband with more than one wife. I saw husbands with only one wife as well. Those with one wife were not condemned those with multiple wives were not under condemnation either.
Your inquiry into this subject is admirable but your conclusions are misguided and extremely divisive and needs to stop. I am not saying this as a prophet or a guy wanting multiple wives. I am sharing this as one who has died and returned. The other message is you are looking at the entire situation through mortal eyes. As President Nelson says, "think Celestial."
We do have so much evidence about Josephs polygamy and that is why all the REAL historians and the churchs essay, but you eoukd orefer to just bury your head in the sand snd cherry pick items that you think would help your false apistate cause!!!
“for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid.”
The “real” historians is who I believe the Lord is referring to here.
History is full of examples where the "experts" were later proven wrong. I have listened to hours on both sides of the discussion - clearly messy and debatable - but, for me personally, I see those teaching that Joseph started polygamy taking items out of context and cherry picking significantly more than those on the other side.... but that is just my personal observation...
@@Searcher-n3r I agree with your opinion, I feel the same way.
Michelle,
I think you would gain a lot of credibility by taking a middle position.
Which is:
Joseph may have authored 132, and the Nauvoo Expositor affidavits may contain elements of truth. But if so, he made mistakes.
AND:
Joseph's polygamy was exaggerated to justify others practicing it and here is why......(keep doing what you are doing.)
Your all or nothing approach is hurting our cause of eradicating polygamy from the church.
I disagree
Brilliant strategy. Maybe she could also claim that Joseph got Fanny only a little bit pregnant? No need to go all-or-nothing and lose credibility.
@@rowanwhiteleaf443 Black and white thinking rarely leads to truth.
@rowanwhiteleaf443 I didn't say she needed to claim Joseph was a polygamist. I said that she needs to make it clear that even if Joseph authored 132 and flirted with polygamy it does not change her central message that polygamy was a mistake and that the extent of Joseph's polygamy was exaggerated.
Joseph was a man and not a God.
@@jaredvaughan1665 Why would anybody claim Joseph authored 132 if it isn't true? Why would you say his involvement in polygamy was exaggerated when the truth is his only involvement was to oppose polygamy? Telling lies doesn't enhance your credibility. Or maybe you believe the lies and just think she is wrong? If so just say that.
" Soon after Joseph came in and spoke to one of the clerks, and then went up stairs followed by Young. Immediately after Kimball came in. "Now, Martha," said he, "the Prophet has come; come up stairs." I went, and we found Young and the Prophet alone. I was introduced to the Prophet by Young. Joseph offered me his seat, and, to my astonishment, the moment I was seated Joseph and Kimball walked out of the room, and left me with Young, who arose, locked the door, closed the window, and drew the curtain. He then came and sat before me and said, "This is our private room, Martha." "Indeed, sir," said I, "I must be highly honored to be permitted to enter it." He smiled, and then proceeded -- "Sister Martha, I want to ask you a few questions; will you answer them?" "Yes, sir," said I. "And will you promise not to mention them to any one?" "If it is your desire, sir," said I, "I will not." "And you will not think any the worse of me for it, will you, Martha?" said he. "No sir," I replied. "Well," said he, "what are your feelings towards me?" -- I replied, "My feelings are just the same towards you that they ever were, sir.." "But, to come to the point more closely," said he, "have not you an affection for me, that, were it lawful and right, you could accept of me for your husband and companion?" My feelings at that moment were indescribable. God only knows them. What, thought I, are these men that I thought almost perfection itself, deceivers. and is all my fancied happiness but a dream? 'Twas even so; but my next thought was, which is the best way for me to act at this time? If I say no, they may do as they think proper; and to say yes, I never would. So I considered it best to ask for time to think and pray about it. I therefore said, "If it was lawful and right perhaps I might; but you know, sir, it is not." "Well, but," said he, "brother Joseph has had a revelation from God that it is lawful and right for a man to have two wives; for as it was in the days of Abraham, so it shall be in these last days and whoever is the first that is willing to take up the cross will receive the greatest blessings; and if you will accept of me I will take you straight to the celestial kingdom; and if you will have me in this world, I will have you in that which is to come, and brother Joseph will marry us here to-day, and you can go home this evening, and your parents will not know any thing about it."---Letter from Martha Brotherton, published in newspapers on July 13, 1842.
You know this was debunked forever ago!! I mean I saw a pro polygamist episode few years ago that even debunked this by her sister who said she was one of the biggest story tellers
Is this the same Martha, who later married Kimball?
"Heritage
A
OPN V 19
MCBRIDE, Martha Knight Kimball
The ninth child of Daniel and Abigail Head Hebride, was born on March 17, 1805, at Cheater Washington Washington County, New York.
Developing into a sainty young woman with gray-blue eyes and dark hair, Martha became the bride July 26, 1826, of Vinson (Vincent) Enight. a thrifty farser and son of Dr. Rudolphus and Razpah Lee Knight, Martha, as an industrious young wife, operated her spinning wheel and plied her needle on the woolen goods and linen made from the wool and flax grown on the family Earn, developing her skill to perfection.
On March 24, 1834, at Perrysburg, New York, Vinson and Martha joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Selling their property at great sacrifice in the spring of 1835, they moved to Kirtland, Ohio, Ohio, with their children, Alsirs, Raapah, Adaline and James, where soon Vinson became presiding bishop of the Church, position he did not hold long for he passed avay in Sauvoo July 31, 1842, Active in attending to the needs of the poor and afflicted in Nauvoo, Kartha belonged to the sewing circle and was a charted member of the first Relief Society organized there March 17, 1842, on her thirty-seventy birthday anniversary.
Hartha vas sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith at Nauvoo a short time before his death. January 26, 1846 she wan married to Reber C. Kimball in the Kauvoo Tenple. Leaving Nauvoo at the time of the exodus, Martha traveled to Winter Quarters with her children and son-in-law, Gilbert Belnap, to whom her fourteen-year-old daughter, Adeline, had been married December 21, 1845. They left the Hissouri River June 15, 1850, in the Jonathan Foote Company and arrived in the Salt Lake Valley. September 17th of that year, Martha became member of the Heber C. Kimball family with whom she resided until she moved to Hooper, after which she lived in that community and Ogden. The following account was taken from the Ogden Standard Examiner at the time of Marths's death November 20, 1901.
She was the mother of six children by her first husband, Hr. Knight, and three of these survive her, all of them between the ages of seventy and eighty years. They are Mrs. Aiminra Banson, Mrs. Adeline Belnap, and James Knight. She had a great sany grandchildren and great grandchildren and several great-great grandchildren.
The physical strength and endurance of Mrs. Knight was wellnigh marvelous. For nearly twenty years she had not used spectacles. Her needlework was a model for fineness amongst all her acquaintances for the past fifty years, She was a great reader, particularly of the daily papers, reading every word of telegraphic news, and during the Spanish-American War she was regarded on one ne of the best informed persons in Weber the military operations of the contending forces. County
Martha was sustained as first counselor to Delilah Fierce Falmer, the first president of the first Belief Society organized in Weber County on the Tabernacle, Square, January 6, 1856. she and he her daughter Adaline were active in assisting in the relief of the suffering at all times. She was also one of the workers in the st. George Temple for several years."
(Found this on Family Search. My ancestor was also married to Joseph Smith).
Martha’s words were contemporaneously repudiated by many.
@ "If Joe wishes to make a spiritual wife of a certain young lady, he would send one of these women to her. The old women, would tell the young lady, that she had had a vision, in which it was revealed to her that she was to be sealed up to Joe, (or his friend as the case might be) as a spiritual wife, to be his in time and eternity. This would astonish the young innocent, but scripture would soon be resorted to, to prove the correctness of the doctrine, and that it was proper in the sight of the Lord. Soon after this Joe would appear, and tell the lady that the Lord had revealed to him that Mrs. so & so, had had a vision concerning her, and had been to see her. Not suspecting any collusion the young lady would be astonished, and being strong in the faith, she could have no doubt but that Joe spoke by authority of God, He would then ply his arguments, and with the utmost sanctity speak "in the name of the Lord" and say that at such a time, and at such a place it had been revealed to him that she should be his or his friend's, in time and eternity. If she objected he would quote his scripture and his revelations, and thus by playing on her superstitious credulity, and artfully at the same time inflaming her passions he seldom failed of his object. Being once successful, he held the fear of exposure over her as a rod to prevent rebellion from his allegiance. When, as happened in the cases of Miss Martha Brotherton and Miss Nancy Rigdon, his overtures were rejected with disdain and exposure threatened he would set a hundred hell hounds on them, to destroy their reputations."---Joseph H. Jackson, June, 1844.
@ "Sidney Rigdon in the 18 June 1845 'Messenger and Advocate' reported that
Parley P. Pratt, in speaking of the means by which church leaders should
sustain Smith, advised that 'we must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our
duty to do so.' Not only were church leaders willing to violate the law to
promote polygamy, they did not hesitate to blacken the character of individuals
who threatened to expose the secret practice of plural marriage.....
"The 27 August 1842 'Wasp,' for example, branded Martha H. Brotherton a 'mean
harlot,' and Nancy Rigdon suffered the same treatment after she opposed Smith's
polygamous proposals. Stephen Markham, a close friend of Smith,
certified.....that he saw Nancy Rigdon in a compromising situation with
Bennett....George W. Robinson, on Nancy's behalf, countered with a sworn
statement on 3 September 1842 that Markham was lying.....Sidney Rigdon also
swore out a refutation and employed an attorney to sue Markham.....
"After Joseph Smith's death in 1844, Orson Hyde attempted to further blacken
Nancy Rigdon's character in order to tarnish her father's claim to church
leadership. Her conduct was 'notorious in this city,' Hyde charged; she was
'regarded generally, little, if any better, than a public prostitute.' "
---("Mormon Polygamy: A History," Richard can Wagoner, pp. 38-39.)
This is textbook scrupulosity.
What do you call obsessively commenting on people's videos whom you hate?
It’s a scrupulously demanding topic
Free therapy and constructive criticism
@latterdayindependence but is it really that important of an issue whether or not Joseph Smith introduced and practiced polygamy because the church adopted it for the next 50 years and Michelle is still a member of that exact same church
@@sdfotodudehow would that make it not important?
Dear Michelle. The only thing which you engage in every week that is factual and not speculation, inuendo or hopeful at best is, Joseph Smith was not a practicing polygamist. He simply never lived the life of one but that is very old news now.
Speaking of fanciful stories..... I wonder how long this one will fare. Until the second coming when Jesus tells Michelle how to read Jacob 2:30 plainly?? 😇
She knows how to read it plainly. You, evidently, do not.
@@JakobPGrau Hi Jakob. The plain context of the verse is: The Nephites were to heed everything said in the chapter regarding raising raise up seed unto the Lord or He will command His people otherwise. See??..... "otherwise they shall hearken unto these things” (Jacob 2:30). In other words, the Lord's general command was to not participate in plural marriage.
Nothing plainer than that my friend. :>)
Too bad you don’t have discernment.
@ That's what the mainstream Christians tell us all the time. LOL
It's so plainly written it doesn't take much discernment. Remember... its "THE PLAIN AND PRECIOUS TRUTHS" that always get attacked and twisted into word salads. :>)
@@godsoffspring4195I’d say hanging your support of polygamy on one poorly interpreted phrase, ignoring everything else, is grasping at straws. This interpretation is antithetical to all the public and private words of the Prophet Joseph Smith. If it were otherwise, we wouldn’t have to just trust word of mouth from Brigham Young and his crew.