Thank you, Mat, it has been a blessing for me and my wife. Bless you for all of your hard work on a very, very sensitive topic. Knowing the historical context makes it so much easier, and finally not feel wearing a head covering to be a salvation issue. May Yehovah bless you brother.
I guess nobody ever heard of Deborah in Judges 4:4 who Judged all of Israel or Pheobe who taught side by side with Paul Romans 16:1 or Huldah in 2 Cron 34:22 or Acts 2:17 which states sons and daughters will Prophecy and the other 7 Prophetesses in scripture. Tons more but if you only search out one liners to hold down women you will find them but that is twisting the context! Paul also said.. Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
I don't think we can dismiss new testament principles based solely on the culture of the day. In Pauls time the feminine was elevated above the masculine. The sun goddess was the deity and Paul was re-establishing the male's place as shepherd. Not to secular society but to the church, encouraging men that they have authority to teach.
Hey Micah, Thanks for the encouraging words! WOW! I cannot believe it has been 3 years since we did this message. It was a lot of fun learning about Roman culture during this season of study. Thanks again for the encouraging feedback! Shalom, Matthew
Matthew Vander Els. This is great to find somebody in the Shabbat keeping movement that actually believe and teach Biblical Equality. My wife and I, we sometimes feel lonely in our stand in that regard. So I would like to commend you for teaching on this topic. It feels great! On the other hand, I find that you do not fully do justice to either topics you are tackling in your video: headcovering and women teachers. Both issues would have deserved to be treated separatly in my mind. Furthermore, if I understand your use of Bruce Winter's book on Roman Wives, Roman Widows to some extend, I am not sure how it accurately represents Corinth. Corinth while a Roman colony, was a mainly Greek city. Greek men are known for not wearing headcovering in a worship context. Philip Payne (New Testament6 scholar and Biblical Equalitarian) wrote that even though both Roman and Greek culture need to be consider in understanding, Corinth, Greek culture would be the primary culture to consider (p.151. Man and Women, One in Christ. Zonderva. 2009). On another hand, it is perfectly possible to be Biblical Equalitarian and to advocate headcovering for women and uncovered head for men in Christian/Messianic worship. This is what F.F. Bruce argued for in his book I & II Corinthians (New Century Bible Commentary). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans, 1980. That's why I believe those topics deserve separate treatement. Shalom! David Yvinec-Dunlop
I haven't. Finished watching, but you're talking about Rome and Paul was writing to Corinth, about womens roles and head coverings which is 617 miles from Rome. Hopefully, as I keep watching, I will get a connection there???
Ok sorry. I must retract my comment. I looked into the occupation on Corinth by Rome and now see connection. The history I found also describes the large jewelry worn by ancient women of Corinth as well.
+Mario Greco Hey Mario, I believe when this message was recorded that I had recently obtained LOGOS bible software. Truly a beast of a software. Shalom, Matthew
Your teaching only adds to what the context is discussing: wives and their husbands. There is a law in Torah that wives are to submit to their husbands, and the husband is the head of the wife. All of this Paul repeats, and is why a wife does not usurp the authority of her husband. If a wife is going to teach, she needs her husband's approval. Single women are under the direct headship of Yeshua, and are to be led by Him. That's also why their vows are to be kept. There is no one to override their word. Yeshua will give direction on their teaching. I think you mentioned this, if there is a blanket prohibition of a woman speaking in the assembly, then where would the prophesy be spoken? If sons and daughters are going to prophesy, it would be in the assembly so it could be edified. One has to ignore a lot of Scripture to focus on these passages and conclude that a woman can never speak in the assembly.
I noticed even more so just now re~reading this, the verses in 1 Cor 14: 33-40 is more so correcting to the men of that church for their attitudes to their women congregants. Reread this chapter. It was because of their ignorance women needed to be silent. Paul says "WHAT!" Greek it says "e" its a contracting back hand from Paul. People stop reading. And doctrines prevent them from seeing what it really says. Jesus's kingdom is submit to each other. No one lording over another. Its horrifying how doctrine stands against the teachings of Christ. Anyway, "What?" is a sarcastic contradiction and was a slap to the men! And then Paul calls the men ignorant for it! And this goes exactly with what Peter said. Scripture just opens up these days. I don't know about pastors or other positions. But I understand we are equally brethren. And we should be humble amongst us anyway. All not half! For this to be an issue of discussion to begin with, then bottom line, we are disobedient in this command to treating all brethren as brethren. Heck our men are as women! See Jeremiah 51. Isn't that something like the time when Deborah went to the battlefield, and two women rec'd glory of men that day. And heck Deborah was a prophet and judge before she realized how wimpy her general was!
I learned in the Jewish synagogue that men where at the front and women was at the back on a balcony and they would call out , and they was told to be quiet and have to wait until they got home. ( This True?) some say thats wat law they was talking about from the talmud
I agree in most of it...veey interesti g and veey confronting. I love to study, to learn, to search and yes, sometimes I found myself in arguments, but the ruach remind me and I slow down....now I am a latina and I understand about modesty and all. I actually try to cover myself a lot, but about the jewlery that is a hard thing for my culture to just not wear shining stuff. I do cover my head, but I stillwear jewelry and share information with others....I don't know. it was a tough one from you to hear and indeed discourage me a lot.
In our culture nowadays, that doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on a woman or her character. Matthew is speaking of character. Even the way you expressed your disagreement with him, it was done with honor and respect. I think that speaks very highly of you! :) Therefore, you don't sound like the women of Rome!
Good teaching mostly. But as is often the case, a mixed bag. He goes on and on about Roman comments about loose women and even alludes to dominating women in the Eklessia, but then warps the Greek to say that a Deaconess is a Teacher. Deacons were not Elder-Teachers they were deacons. Full of Faith yes, but they waited on tables, they ministered, they served, they were martyred, they died. But to say that they were teachers, is the last hiss of Feminism.
Didn't Seneca commit suicide? Alot of those you quote ( outside of the Bible) have less than questionable ideology. Wasn't Seneca a saturist? Just making a point of before I let something go down into my spirit, check all facts. I'm a fellow believer but I don'tagree to quote some of the people who are less than ideal to an audience looking for answers in the scriptures. I'm not trying to be contentious at all, but guarding my heart and spirit. I find it hard to follow teachings of someone who is quoting a dramitist/saturist/ esteemed Roman philosogher as they were gospel as was Paul.
Hey Rhonda, Thanks for commenting. The reason Seneca and others are quoted it’s to show historical background of the world Paul was living in at the time. Nowhere in the message are these quotes presented as scripture. They are simply used as evidence to show how women were viewed in the first century.
Extremely poor exegesis, completely out of kilter with Scripture teaching for the faithful and humble "Daughters of Sarah". "11 Let a woman learn in quietness, in entire submissiveness. 12 I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to remain in quietness and keep silence [in religious assemblies]. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve; 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was deceived and deluded and fell into transgression 1 Tim 2:11-14 (AMPLIFIED BIBLE) For this misguided man defiantly countermands the Lord's command for the silence of women in the church assemblies. "34 The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says. 35 But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [ for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church]. 36 What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you? 37 If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. 38 But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [ that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not]." 1 Corinthians 14:34-38 (AMPLIFIED BIBLE ) Sadly this woman is one whom Almighty God does not know, anymore. Not a very nice position to be in folks.
Thank you, Mat, it has been a blessing for me and my wife. Bless you for all of your hard work on a very, very sensitive topic.
Knowing the historical context makes it so much easier, and finally not feel wearing a head covering to be a salvation issue.
May Yehovah bless you brother.
Totally amazing - what a blessing your ministry continues to be! Much love from the UK
+Master Plaster That is a huge encouragement, thank you!
I guess nobody ever heard of Deborah in Judges 4:4 who Judged all of Israel or Pheobe who taught side by side with Paul Romans 16:1 or Huldah in 2 Cron 34:22 or Acts 2:17 which states sons and daughters will Prophecy and the other 7 Prophetesses in scripture. Tons more but if you only search out one liners to hold down women you will find them but that is twisting the context! Paul also said.. Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
I don't think we can dismiss new testament principles based solely on the culture of the day. In Pauls time the feminine was elevated above the masculine. The sun goddess was the deity and Paul was re-establishing the male's place as shepherd. Not to secular society but to the church, encouraging men that they have authority to teach.
Teaching Paul is not easy unless you really do your work. Very good and well worth your time to watch this video.
Matt, thank you! You blew it out of the water!!! Context means everything!
Hey Micah,
Thanks for the encouraging words! WOW! I cannot believe it has been 3 years since we did this message. It was a lot of fun learning about Roman culture during this season of study.
Thanks again for the encouraging feedback!
Shalom,
Matthew
Great teaching. Thank you so much!
Very well done bro!
Matthew Vander Els. This is great to find somebody in the Shabbat keeping movement that actually believe and teach Biblical Equality. My wife and I, we sometimes feel lonely in our stand in that regard. So I would like to commend you for teaching on this topic. It feels great!
On the other hand, I find that you do not fully do justice to either topics you are tackling in your video: headcovering and women teachers. Both issues would have deserved to be treated separatly in my mind.
Furthermore, if I understand your use of Bruce Winter's book on Roman Wives, Roman Widows to some extend, I am not sure how it accurately represents Corinth. Corinth while a Roman colony, was a mainly Greek city. Greek men are known for not wearing headcovering in a worship context. Philip Payne (New Testament6 scholar and Biblical Equalitarian) wrote that even though both Roman and Greek culture need to be consider in understanding, Corinth, Greek culture would be the primary culture to consider (p.151. Man and Women, One in Christ. Zonderva. 2009).
On another hand, it is perfectly possible to be Biblical Equalitarian and to advocate headcovering for women and uncovered head for men in Christian/Messianic worship. This is what F.F. Bruce argued for in his book I & II Corinthians (New Century Bible Commentary). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans, 1980. That's why I believe those topics deserve separate treatement.
Shalom! David Yvinec-Dunlop
Great WORD!!!
I haven't.
Finished watching, but you're talking about Rome and Paul was writing to Corinth, about womens roles and head coverings which is 617 miles from Rome. Hopefully, as I keep watching, I will get a connection there???
Ok sorry. I must retract my comment. I looked into the occupation on Corinth by Rome and now see connection. The history I found also describes the large jewelry worn by ancient women of Corinth as well.
Very edifying message!! Thanks a lot!
discouraged me a lot, not from the teaching part because I understand godly order and I love it!!!
The Lord be with you if you shall obey him despite what these liars shall teach.
I actually thought that the message was pretty good and very confronting, but I think was because it comfronted me in some areas.
Mat, you had mentioned that you finally got your bible software, what is that software you use for your in-depth study.
+Mario Greco Hey Mario, I believe when this message was recorded that I had recently obtained LOGOS bible software. Truly a beast of a software.
Shalom,
Matthew
Your teaching only adds to what the context is discussing: wives and their husbands. There is a law in Torah that wives are to submit to their husbands, and the husband is the head of the wife. All of this Paul repeats, and is why a wife does not usurp the authority of her husband. If a wife is going to teach, she needs her husband's approval. Single women are under the direct headship of Yeshua, and are to be led by Him. That's also why their vows are to be kept. There is no one to override their word. Yeshua will give direction on their teaching. I think you mentioned this, if there is a blanket prohibition of a woman speaking in the assembly, then where would the prophesy be spoken? If sons and daughters are going to prophesy, it would be in the assembly so it could be edified. One has to ignore a lot of Scripture to focus on these passages and conclude that a woman can never speak in the assembly.
great teaching, thank you :)
I noticed even more so just now re~reading this, the verses in 1 Cor 14: 33-40 is more so correcting to the men of that church for their attitudes to their women congregants.
Reread this chapter.
It was because of their ignorance women needed to be silent. Paul says "WHAT!" Greek it says "e" its a contracting back hand from Paul. People stop reading. And doctrines prevent them from seeing what it really says.
Jesus's kingdom is submit to each other. No one lording over another. Its horrifying how doctrine stands against the teachings of Christ.
Anyway, "What?" is a sarcastic contradiction and was a slap to the men! And then Paul calls the men ignorant for it!
And this goes exactly with what Peter said.
Scripture just opens up these days.
I don't know about pastors or other positions. But I understand we are equally brethren. And we should be humble amongst us anyway. All not half!
For this to be an issue of discussion to begin with, then bottom line, we are disobedient in this command to treating all brethren as brethren.
Heck our men are as women!
See Jeremiah 51.
Isn't that something like the time when Deborah went to the battlefield, and two women rec'd glory of men that day.
And heck Deborah was a prophet and judge before she realized how wimpy her general was!
I learned in the Jewish synagogue that men where at the front and women was at the back on a balcony and they would call out , and they was told to be quiet and have to wait until they got home. ( This True?) some say thats wat law they was talking about from the talmud
I agree in most of it...veey interesti g and veey confronting. I love to study, to learn, to search and yes, sometimes I found myself in arguments, but the ruach remind me and I slow down....now I am a latina and I understand about modesty and all. I actually try to cover myself a lot, but about the jewlery that is a hard thing for my culture to just not wear shining stuff. I do cover my head, but I stillwear jewelry and share information with others....I don't know. it was a tough one from you to hear and indeed discourage me a lot.
+j77walker no I don't dress inmodest , but I do like shiny jewelry, not for others, I just like them.
In our culture nowadays, that doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on a woman or her character. Matthew is speaking of character. Even the way you expressed your disagreement with him, it was done with honor and respect. I think that speaks very highly of you! :) Therefore, you don't sound like the women of Rome!
Good teaching mostly. But as is often the case, a mixed bag. He goes on and on about Roman comments about loose women and even alludes to dominating women in the Eklessia, but then warps the Greek to say that a Deaconess is a Teacher. Deacons were not Elder-Teachers they were deacons. Full of Faith yes, but they waited on tables, they ministered, they served, they were martyred, they died. But to say that they were teachers, is the last hiss of Feminism.
Hey Miles, thanks for the feedback!
Didn't Seneca commit suicide? Alot of those you quote ( outside of the Bible) have less than questionable ideology. Wasn't Seneca a saturist? Just making a point of before I let something go down into my spirit, check all facts. I'm a fellow believer but I don'tagree to quote some of the people who are less than ideal to an audience looking for answers in the scriptures. I'm not trying to be contentious at all, but guarding my heart and spirit. I find it hard to follow teachings of someone who is quoting a dramitist/saturist/ esteemed Roman philosogher as they were gospel as was Paul.
Amores Ovid was a book of poetry and not scripture. Which you also qoute right up there with scripture.
Hey Rhonda,
Thanks for commenting. The reason Seneca and others are quoted it’s to show historical background of the world Paul was living in at the time. Nowhere in the message are these quotes presented as scripture. They are simply used as evidence to show how women were viewed in the first century.
There is a word Matt its called Ego. Trying to do your marriage by yourself is ego, and is foolish in my opinion LOL!!!!
Extremely poor exegesis, completely out of kilter with Scripture teaching for the faithful and humble "Daughters of Sarah".
"11 Let a woman learn in quietness, in entire submissiveness.
12 I allow no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to
remain in quietness and keep silence [in religious assemblies].
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve;
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but [the] woman who was
deceived and deluded and fell into transgression
1 Tim 2:11-14 (AMPLIFIED BIBLE)
For this misguided man defiantly countermands the Lord's command for the silence of women in the church assemblies.
"34 The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says.
35 But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [ for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church].
36 What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you?
37 If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.
38 But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [ that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not]."
1 Corinthians 14:34-38 (AMPLIFIED BIBLE )
Sadly this woman is one whom Almighty God does not know, anymore.
Not a very nice position to be in folks.