Early Analysis: Piper PA-25 Banner Tow Crash May 17, 2023 Hollywood, FL
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- The AOPA Air Safety Institute (ASI) makes a preliminary assessment of the accident that occurred on May 17th, 2023, involving a Piper PA-25 Pawnee banner tow aircraft. The aircraft impacted North Park Road in Hollywood, Florida. Tragically, the single occupant was killed.
Sources:
LiveATC.net www.liveatc.net/
FlightAware flightaware.com/
Zachary Lewis / @zacharylewis5268
WKMG News 6 ClickOrlando / @news6wkmg
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Can’t blame the pilot for inexperience, but I’ll commend his bravery for being unwilling to risk innocent lives, that is how he should be remembered.
@@johnsmith1474 I hope you are judged when your day comes with just as much compassion. I’d argue your points but obviously your opinion is indisputable. Your opinions are all gems, I especially liked, “Pilots are idiots.”
@@Wild_Bill57 envy is a bad trait....
Yes a brave pilot, thinking of others. Such a shame it ended that way
@@stanislavkostarnov2157 envy? Never used the word. Do not think you meant what you wrote or that word does not mean what you think it means…
Well said mam/Sir.
Sound like this guy would have had a chance had he released it earlier, but by trying to find the best place for the people on the ground, gave his life for it. That’s kinda heroic.
Well ... my opinion is different. Hitting, say, a playground with the banner would have been a better result than hitting the playground with the plane _and_ the banner.
Right, so drop the whole aircraft ....
and also horrific, he could have dropped it and been highly unlikely to hit anyone. not good.
Nobody really knows for sure, but in trying to stay employed he may have been trying to save the banner, land and retrieve later. Sadly he seems to have forgot job #1: fly the plane.
With my banner tow experience, the banner actually holds the tail of the aircraft up and allowed the aircraft to fly below stall speed. So it makes sense to me that the only thing keeping this aircraft from stall spinning was the banner.
Correct! He needed to push over before release no matter his altitude to have a chance.
That's awfully counterintuitive (at least to a non-pilot like me). It's almost as if towing a banner could be in some sense akin to a flaps extension.
Inexperience was the key problem that caused this accident. I have towed banners for many years and while there is a lot going on right after you pick the banner, flying the plane at the correct speed is key. The pilot held the nose too high which kept the plane in a stall. Because he was constantly in a stall, he was unable to gain any altitude. When the pilot realized he was not climbing, he should have remained or returned to the banner area, and dropped the banner if need be. The tower routinely allows you to climb in the ‘banner box’ pattern with no disruption to other air traffic at the airport. When the pilot finally did release the banner while the airplane was stalled, the release of energy and his foot on the rudder put the airplane into a spin. At 400 ft, there was insufficient altitude to recover. It is easy to blame it on pilot error. In reality banner flying is complicated and difficult. There was no engine trouble. The pilot had a semi-heavy banner and he did not realize that the climbing process is sometimes very slow. Trying to force the nose of the plane up has a detrimental climbing effect as the plane flounders in and out of a stall. Incredibly sad for everyone involved with this accident.
He just wanted hours to get a better job 😢 may he rest in peace
Thank you for this analysis. I had no idea how close to the edge banner tows operate.
Alicia, thanks for sharing your insights in such a difficult interview.
My cousin died during a pick gone bad.
As I understand it he did an end over flip as he tried to climb. He had lots of experience dragging banners along the beach.
He one time told me he got a job spraying crops. He said he made one run, the quit. I remember him saying "That type of flying was insanely dangerous."
He was a great guy.
I’m so saddened by the loss of this young person. I’ve read such good things about him from those who knew and / or flew with him.
Great analysis. Thanks.
Glad you liked it!
Thank you for such a thoughtful, respectful, detailed and insightful analysis of this crash. Will be interested to find out more details as the investigation goes on. Your videos are so helpful and only work to promote aviation safety. Thank you for all that you do.
Do these banners really work? I would like to see some statistics, how much revenue it can bring for the cost.
I dont know statistics but it is more of a novelty for companies to chose to advertise this way. It is very similar to the GoodYear Blimp. Everyone knows the Goodyear Blimp. Most of the time potential clients see it as being too expensive. It was more popular to fly streamers with "Will you marry me Kate" messages and fly over a Ball Park during a game or doing political ads during election times. We nearly got into trouble several times like was happened in this tragic event. We ended doing banner tows because because of a lack of business.
“Half of all advertising works. The problem is there’s no way to know which half.”
She was super helpful
Had a second crash with the same banner company today.
Great video thanks - had no idea that banner flying was so complicated and ye explained it very well. RIP to the pilot.
Very well articulated.
They never get to the important question; why did he depart controlled flight AFTER, the release?. Shoulda been easy from there.
Obviously at such a high AOA the banner induces a
pitchdown torque, which has to be countered by the pilot. At low speed and high AOA, when the pilot releases the banner
the effect is a sudden pitch up. If the stick is not pushed violently forward, stall is unavoidable.
Why is Banner towing still legal?
Poor guy. This just sucks. I know experience helps but at those speeds i sorta question if he even had enough air going over the wings to even get the nose down.
I've never towed a banner and never realized how much is required. RIP.
What did the banner say?
RIP pilot, condolences to the family and all who feel this loss. This being said, I've never looked up at a banner and thought "oh wow, let me call that company or look up that company, I'm so glad I saw this ad" especially in a casual or vacation moment by the beach or at a sporting event where these banner plans typically fly. With all due respect to those who opt in to fly these planes, in my humble opinion, this has to be one of the stupidest forms of advertising where the engagement / response rate is so low that all these planes do is create noise pollution and an intrusive distraction to those enjoying a beautiful day. Do we really need advertising everywhere we go? On top of that, being that there is an inherent risk involved, it seems to be a senseless and deliberate loss of life when this practice has the potential to end in tragedy. Personal opinion, FAA needs to put an end to this.
Why did the airplane stall shortly after releasing the banner?
Stall speed changed abruptly after releasing the drag.
@@scottleckliter4992 -- would you mind explaining this transition further? I would like to understand this better.
Pilots truely dread flying below LD max..... And now you don't even have altitude... Talk about trusting those little cylinders with your life. I think our lives worth more than that.
It seems to me that towing a banner is very dangerous.
Would a more powerful aircraft provide a larger margin of safety?
So many of the banner towing craft seem rinky-dinky.
Im not jumping to conclusions. But I heard from a banner towing pilot that on humid days, slow and high RPM... You could still get carburetor icing... And if not taking the right correction can surge your engine and even QUIT... I'm very sad for such a young pilot to end this way.
Very tragic...
The WPLG Local 10 video from 2 days ago of the airframe is horrific. There's another one I won't mention. Sad end to a life.
Has anyone thought of....what if he went into a nose dive B4 he dropped the banner, just a thought
Good thing they made the 1500hr rule so kids have to do anything to gain hours rather in a formal regional program shortly after gaining commercial and a bit a CFI work. Just my .02
Sounds like she doesnt know what back side of the power curve means. Lucky she never found out the hard way. Not a mechanical issue. Its the region where it takes more power to fly slower.
My guess on this is the banner attachment was too far back. Should be around the CG.
Is that an American DC 10 lined jacket
Your expert must have worked for a bad operator, like this poor pilot did. It’s not her fault, she doesn’t know. Or she’s hyping up the danger she felt. I’ve only done this for 40 years.
It’s all in the training and post managing.
@@jamesbutler7559 Agreed. it's safe when done correctly. I've never towed banners in a pawnee though.
seems to me that plane was possibly underpowered for the job, or perhaps it did experience some loss of power that he needed to speed up
I rode in the back of a tow plane to see if I wanted to do it. Scared me to death
I think everyone agrees that the airspeed is required for this type of operation. In addition to operator offer better information -Training.
Well i am a Bannertowing Pilot in Germany for more than 20 years. To analyse the acident you neet to know tha the stallspeed with a banner on the hookt is less tha the stallspeep without.
So you can fly below the stallspee with the banner. But in the moment you cut the banner, as you can see in the video, the plan got his nomanl stallspeed back. Even so close to the ground towing a banner you need to pitch the nose down to gain speed before citing the banner. In my toughts i am with the family an friend of the pilot.
Hmmm, not too dissimilar from the draggy floats of a seaplane lowering your stall speed vs the wheeled version I guess. Difference being you can't drop your floats
Too many tired old aircraft doing this job on my experience. I was lucky towing, my operator had first class equipment , but it is still dangerous.
Danke
Thanks for your input. I was wondering if there was a tendency for the airplane to pitch up suddenly when dropping a banner. It makes sense if the stall speed changed, as when retracting flaps while too slow.
Aerodynamically speaking, how would towing something that creates more drag in turn lower the stall speed? It seems like it would increase stall speed.
My dear friend Mitchell Allen Knaus died in this accident. He was living at my house, we went jogging together that morning. Terribly sad.
So very sorry for your loss.
Condolences . How tragic . LIfe is so short. He was certainly thinking of the welfare of others.
Sorry for your loss. Always tragic to lose an aspiring young pilot.
So sorry for your loss. He seemed like a great man.
Sorry for your loss. Condolences from northeast Texas..
This is the first time I have learned anything about "Banner Towing Flight" since I started flying lessons in 1965. It is a fabulous video and is particularly well-presented information by Alicia Herron. Thank you sooo much.
Wow, this has got to be the best early analysis video I’ve seen from you guys. Alicia did a great job explaining the inside of banner towing operations. I’m a 1000 hours Cfi, and having flown a lot of airplanes I had no idea how challenging it is to fly these banners around. In my opinion, this young pilot is a hero for even considering the people on the ground when he knew his life was in severe danger. What a tragic accident my condolences to the family, and everyone affected a clear sign that the training provided by the operator was not sufficient and should be addressed.
@james smith If you limit by hours, I kind of think it maybe an idea to have banner flying have a 1000hour minimum limit.... otherwise, maybe review the kind of training banner pilots get... really feel this is a skill-set beyond what is contained in the training for a normal commercial pilots license.
I know, right?! I am amazed at what kind of flying banner towing takes. Actually sounds incredibly hard and a lot more dangerous that one would think.
Probably only got a single check out flight with not a lot of scenario based training/"what ifs" especially if it's a single seat aircraft
I am waiting to hear from the NTSB as to the mechanical condition of the aircraft. A Piper Pawnee, unmodified, has 150 HP at best.
@@FlyingNDriving Let's not speculate.
Its never enough! When I was a kid banners were 1 line. One line and it was a short sentence. Very easy for the plane to tow it. But no thats not enough! Now they got a fricken 4 high paragraph. Greed killed that kid.
This is really sad. I'm sure he was very excited to get what might have been one of his first commercial pilot jobs and looking forward to a long career.
I have something like 200 hours banner towing, I was trained at the place where this aircraft came from in Hollywood, FL., and I'll say something here that I've noticed a lot in the videos of people picking up banners -- I never ONCE, ever, made an approach as steep, or a climb as steep, or a pull up as drastic as the videos all seem to show. If your aircraft is set up correctly for the size of banner you are towing, there is no need for an airshow, daredevil performance for the camera and "LIKES" that you see even in the short clip shown at the beginning of this clip. They are doing it wrong. By making the drastic transition from the dive to the climb, you actually lose more airspeed than you would in a more gentle maneuver. You are doing it wrong. It is a dangerous maneuver, and it does take practice, and it does look pretty cool, but it doesn't have to be like a lot of the crazy videos I've seen on TH-cam.
Dropping a banner in an emergency is something that has to be done. Yes, you want to find a good spot, but in reality, you are very unlikely to hurt or kill someone with the banner and rope. I flew almost exclusively over populated areas, and it would have sucked, but it's just something that must be done to save your life and to allow you to get the plane itself down without killing someone on the ground. Most people would rather have one of those come down on them than a plane... if given the choice.
This next part is hard to describe: I think I kind of know the aerodynamics of what is happening here, but I won't try. However, under certain circumstances, there were times when with the exact power settings, the right atmospherics, the right speed, and angle of attack, the aircraft/banner combination would essentially become something I can only describe as a very stable, slow-motion, falling leaf. You don't get a stall indication, you don't get buffeting, it is a gentle, float to the ground as if you are on a parachute. It is the type of situation someone could be in without knowing it if you don't pay attention to the instruments. The only way out of it (and I practiced) is full power and clean configuration. If he had power loss, he could only drop the banner AFTER first pitching down to assure the AoA before the banner came free. This is where the experience comes in, because it is unlike any other stall or flight envelope you can encounter in a Cessna or Pawnee or Cub. When he released the banner, he instantly went from the odd, somehow-staying-in-the-air-while-below-stall-speed configuration that only the banner can give you, to a post stall AoA, and subsequent spin.
I'm sorry for the loss. It seems like he fought it to the end.
I remember in the 60s when the father and son butler started circle A banner towing in north Miami it was hairy back then circle A became one of the largest towers in the country
This was the most engaging of these intelligent and detailed ASI reports. You could *feel* the situation and appreciate the challenges the pilot faced.
I lost a dear friend to banner towing. Deceptively dangerous endeavor in my opinion.
I was considering banner towing since I’m almost done with my commercial license but not so much anymore
@@jonathanparle8429 You said exactly what I wanted to say. Most people are walking around with their face in their phones. They probably couldn't be bothered to lift their head to look up at a banner. It hardly seems worth the risk in this day and age.
@@boneseyyl1060 agreed, and this is prehistoric type of advertising. 🤷🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️
For virtually nonexistent commercial benefit. It's literally a trained and certified aviator reduced to sandwich board boy on Spring Break beaches because no cargo carrier will hire him until he's got his hours.
This young lady is knowledgeable, eloquent, and certainly one of the best possible resources for this discussion. I would be privileged to have her as a crew member.
Her vocal fry would drive me insane.
is this how all old guys subtly say they like the girl?😂
Thirsty simps for a 5/10.
She did, at one point, suggest that the pilots inexperience was the cause of the accident. Not what I would expect from a professional.
@@davidlewis2626 But she was right! He only had 2 flights towing a banner.. sad.
My take from this is that this pilot was someone who, in an emergency situation, made the choice to prioritise the lives of others over themself. That's the true measure of someone, and I really wish with all my heart it didn't have the result it did for them.
The actual risk was, drop the banner or drop the air craft. Not keep the banner or drop the banner. He waited, he screwed up.
@@johnsmith1474 Aircraft full of fuel is a far worse thing to drop out of the sky than a banner, sure. But I'll still respect the desire to protect others ahead of himself however misplaced it might have been.
Aviation accident investigations are about finding the cause of the crash, not pointing fingers. His choices were his to make, based upon his experience and training. He's made the ultimate accounting for those choices, now it's our job to learn from them. Pointing fingers with hindsight is unpleasant and does nothing to help anyone who has lost from this tragedy. Personally, I suspect there's been an overemphasis on the danger of a dropped banner by a company worried about being sued - but I have zero proof of that, and will be interested to see what the actual root causes are.
although the “hero” persona looks good for the guy, this is really just speculation. He could’ve maybe just been overwhelmed or just inexperienced instead.
@@idekav. He was definitely inexperienced, and I'd be very surprised if he wasn't feeling at least a bit overwhelmed.
We're all entitled to our own opinions of his actions. My opinion is that his priorities reflect well on his character, even if they might have been incorrect. Putting others ahead of oneself is something more folk should consider getting in the habit of doing.
Blaming the dead does nothing beyond cause hurt to those left behind. With zero proof of this; I suspect the blame should probably end up with a company that put too much emphasis on the danger of dropping the banner in an attempt to avoid litigation if it hit someone.
@@johnsmith1474do you have any videos of how you have dropped banners in an emergency situation before? Or maybe efforts you took in a car to save other lives that didn’t result in someone dying? I always love to hear from internet experts, gets I’ve never had one of them show me how they did it. Luckily we have you, I will await your personal videos. Thanks!
That lady is remarkable with her experience in banner flying I knew it was dangerous but learned a lot from her
Me, too. Excellent.
Clearly banner towing is the antithesis to the aviation safety culture. Why it is allowed is illogical.
It's not inherently dangerous. Banners have been flying for over a hundred years.
Hands down the most useful and intelligent analysis of this tragic event. I've been a private pilot since 1968, but never had any exposure to banner flying. Ms. Herron did an outstanding job of explaining the art of banner towing.
I had no idea banner flying was so dangerous. very informative video
It was great to hear from Alicia about how the banner towing is so different from regular flying with her experience.
Yeah, as an armchair aviation enthusiast I had no clue about this most peculiar flying niche. Like a friend who earned her living stripping once said to me, "God damn, what a job."
Brilliant video.
I can’t understand the obsession in the US with these banners. Looks like a totally dangerous exercise.
I agree. They are eyesores. So sad someone lost their life just for an ad.
Great perspective from Alicia and I appreciate her insight of the banner pilot's world. I'm wondering how much time this company, and other banner towing Ops spend on incipient stall training specific to the aircraft they operate. Like Alicia said, flying so low and slow, at high angle of attack, and being task saturated, you have precious fee seconds to react. Based on the video, I'd bet the accident pilot used full left aileron to counteract the right wing dip, which then initiated the immediate snap roll to the left. Stick full forward and left rudder would have to be instantaneous given his low speed and altitude. It's a terrible loss, and he was obviously doing everything he knew in order to prevent injuries on the ground, and that shows what type of young man he was.
It looks to me like that his initial response was correct, but when he overshot wings level he tried to correct by giving right aileron while still in a stall, which would further stall the left wing as the aileron on that wing comes down and initiate the snap roll.
It really does appear the plane was already stalled and the banner was stabilizing it. The immediate entry into a spin is hard to ignore.
Excellent interview. RIP to the pilot
Thoughtful video and thoughtful comments. There’s a reason Alicia is in communications.
I believe the comments saying a banner can reduce the stall speed are wrong. There’s no aerodynamic reason for that.
With the tow cable attached to the floor below the thrust line, the drag of the banner would tend to pull the nose down requiring the pilot to hold up elevator to compensate. Releasing the banner would cause an immediate pitch up unless the pilot reduced back pressure simultaneously. With the plane already flying so close to critical angle of attack (stall speed), the result would be an immediate stall. If you watch the video frame by frame, the tail does appear to drop (pitch up) immediately before the plane rolls right.
With so much stress, workload and inexperience, most of us would likely have made the same mistake. I feel terrible for that young pilot.
I agree; however, I don’t think it’s that simple. The banner attached to the tail below the airflow center line will require both power and pitch correction while attempting climb out. Full throttle and lots of up elevator to stay level, then the banner releases causing the plane to immediately pitch up and stall. In this case, no altitude to recover upon release. Terrible situation.
The 7 miles that it took from North Perry to the beach always made me pucker up a little bit. Flying over dense population with not many options made me always ready for an engine out. If worse came to worse the first thing I’d do is drop the banner and explain myself later. Thank god that never happened to me. If heard stories of Pawnees having a very bad climb rate after the pick and not getting to the 1300ft. until outside of the delta. I’ve never flown the Pawnee but in my opinion I don’t thing it’s the best plane to tow in. Sure it has the power but the climb performance with a banner isn’t the greatest. In the super cub I flew there were rarely times where I’d be concerned about my safety. And I usually would climb in the “banner box” and then depart the airport at the 1300ft. Wind plays a big role in determining how the climb out would be. This was a tragedy and shouldn’t have happened. In training companies preach that dropping the banner is the last option and look for a suitable place to drop if it gets to that but in my opinion it would be best to drop it and deal with the consequences later. This is just my opinion coming from a guy that worked ground crew and towed banners at North Perry
I too would've done as you say "drop immediately and figure out later" ... and this is not because one does not care what harm the falling banner may or may not cause to a human being down below, but rather because it is a certainty that a falling airplane will always have the potential to cause much more and widespread harm to the people below.
Here's an idea....How about not taking off with banners over highly populated areas?! I thought that the idea that he might have already been stalled and the banner was providing stability was interesting, and makes sense. I wonder if he might have been able to set it down with the banner (as discussed earlier), if he had an open space?
I've never been influenced by a banner in my life. I don't understand how they still use them in 2023. Remember the searchlights that they used to shine around in the sky for a premier or grand opening? If you do, you're pretty old!
Banners seem about as effective to me.
Excellent video though!
I was thinking the same. Even if all safety concerns are set aside, in 2023 does the cost of towing banners actually convert to meaningful profit? I’d find it hard to believe.
PS/ I’d forgotten about searchlights but yes, I suppose I’m old.
@@drkatel I guess if they were not effective, those companies would have gone out of business.
Very interesting. I had no idea how difficult towing banners was. So sad for the pilot and his family.
Part of me wonders if he’d of had a better chance of surviving by choosing not to cut the banner… EDIT - I commented the above before finishing the video. It turns out they cover this exact topic/thinking at 14:08
Then why haven't you deleted the comment?
@@xeldinn86because it’s no big farking deal?!? Besides, once I comment on any social platform, it’s the last time I will see it, I never come back to it.
RIP Mr. Knaus... really good interview, Mr. Richard... Lots of interesting info in there, Alicia. Thank-you....
From what I've gleaned from this, it seems to me that banner towing is a disaster waiting to happen by design. If someone told me to fly a load that put me with a few knots of stall, I'd tell them what they could do with it in no uncertain terms.
One must question if Banner Towing is worth the risk.
Really agree. It sounds like it requires constantly pushing the envelope for both plane & pilot from start to finish? Given there are so, so many other advertising options, I just can't see the point of that risk/benefit balance. 😔
If companies absolutely MUST resort to aerial advertising, is skywriting a safer option...?
Great channel and analysis.
Condolences to the family and friends of the pilot.
The video of the crash says it all. Just before banner release, the plane's wings are rocking, consistent with the plane operating just above its stall speed. Notice that at the instant the banner is released, the plane yaws sharply RIGHT, and then the right wing drops. This may be explained like this: the banner -- with its considerable drag -- acts as a powerful "yaw damper", keeping the nose straight by largely over-riding any actual rudder forces.
When the banner is released, that damping force is instantly gone, allowing any rudder input to suddenly affect the aircraft. In this case -- and at the edge of the stall -- existing right rudder input would cause a sudden right yaw with immediate right wing stall as seen in the video.
This accident is tragic, especially since it may have been prevented with proper training for this novice banner pilot. An emergency banner drop is not the same as a routine one, and this might represent a gap in typical banner ops training. RIP; he tried so hard to do the right thing and protect innocent lives.
So helpful to have an experienced banner-towing pilot like Alicia contributing her insights. Great job, guys.
Under high power he's going to have a lot of right rudder to counter the torque, with that load removed you're going to have extra right rudder which would explain the jerk to the right.
Maybe. You thinking it would be enough of a roll, to put the AOA above stall?
Excellent video as usual. Alicia did a great job explaining the intricacies and dangers of banner towing. I knew that it was risky, but had no idea that you had to fly on the edge of the planes performance envelope.
Talked about this with the fatal Bonanza 180 turn back at HWO awhile back.
There is no where to land after takeoff at HWO until you’re about 1000agl. To the East have to glide to the highway. To the West you only have very small golf courses (expect to hit a tree), or pick a retention pond. Don’t aim for streets, too many palm trees and power lines (Seneca fatal accident a few years ago).
Good day, I worked at AB and they use 6 cylinder PA-25’s so the engine should have much more performance than what your interviewer talks about. I’m not going to sideline on this forum but it’s a very sad accident. This is the danger we all face in our first flying job (inexperience).
Very clear discussion on the challenges and limitations of commercial banner towing.
Ms. Herrin did an excellent job of clarifying the challenges and pitfalls in a manner that non-pilots can understand.
Excellent reporting that one can learn from even without towing a huge drag maker a couple of knots above stall.
Lucid explanation. Thank you so much from Amsterdam.
If the pilot was flying close to the critical angle of attack and the banner attachment point is below the horizontal line passing through the COG of the aircraft then when the banner is released the aircraft will immediately pitch up and stall -unless the pilot pitches down as he releases... The banner acts as a lever trying to pitch the nose down.
Is advertising worth it?
Here in Vegas, fleets of large diesel billboard trucks drive around all night, blocking traffic, spewing pollution, driving very slow, for what? Advertising?
The airspace already has enough planes flying around. They are flying planes that burn leaded fuel over populated areas on the edge, endangering lives on the ground... for advertising.
There are places with huge electric billboards being run by large diesel generators that run 24/7.
Don't ask me to cut my emissions while this kind of wasteful nonsense is taking place.
Surely there must be a safer way to advertise 2-for-1 margaritas at Joe's Crab Shack.
As an eyewitness to this incident I can confirm that the engine did not sound as if it malfunctioned. I grew up less then a mile from this airport and have heard these planes overhead daily since I was a child. The only real difference in sound this plane had was that it was very very low when I heard it and sounded like it was moving much slower than they traditionally fly. I saw it right after as it dropped the banner when it’s left wing dipped.
Could have been operating at an RPM that was not producing full thrust, the margins were very slim here according to both analysts.
Great points here made by both. However i dissagree about her point on the power curve. It is possible to get behind the power curve in almost any airplane, underpowered or overpowered... unless it has a 1:1 power to weight ratio ofc.
Condolence to Mitch's Family. Rip brotha
Excellent analysis and explanation by Alicia Herron and Richard McSpadden.
Colonel McSpadden,
Thank you for this and your expertise. A terrible tragedy.
Paul (in MA)
Serious question:
-In this age of social media and a million ways to advertise, why would anyone pay for banner tows?
I can never read them.
@@redcat9436 This one seemed to be in English, so most people in Florida couldn't read it.
@@robgrey6183 🤣
I've always wondered (but never bothered to find out) how the plane takes off with the banner. The pick up is not what i expected.
I've seen takeoff with banner attached
Interesting hook system on the Cub in your video. 30 years ago we used a Gasser hitch on the tail and a steel cable which dropped with each banner. Had to land and rehook each time. Also it appeared the Cub dove down to the pickup. We always approached it level.
an eyewitness video on the ground zooms at the cockpit and you can see the poor dude leaning to his left side with his left arm still on the throttle. poor dude i wonder if he didn't released the banner cause he was afraid to get fired. i know i would...
Was this video pre crash or post crash?
If it was post crash there's no way he would have been able to hold the throttle with an impact like this.
RIP To Mr. Knaus.
After listening to this qualified experienced woman, I would say that this type of flying should not to attempted by a young inexperienced pilot that is in search of building his or her (stupid) 1500 hr requirements! This is a tricky maneuver (watching the demo) and should require specific training and check rides with someone with a high level of qualified experience. So many things in FAA governed aviation make no sense.
Couple years ago a young guy got the banner caught on a high rise condominium balcony. For anyone who’s not familiar with North Perry Airport and Hollywood beach , it’s a densely populated, extremely challenging, and unforgiving environment for banner towing operations
I fly out of FXE We call North perry “Scary Perry” for a reason.
Incorrect.
I have always been curious about banner flying. This confirmed some of my concerns and added more. I'm sorry it was these circumstances that brought my learning. I live in a very warm part of the country, dense urban, too. I have wondered about the hazards of flying banners especially because they are flown for freeway drivers, who have no business looking anywhere but the road. Beach flying makes a lot of sense though. May his friends and family find peace and consolation during their grief.
I had no idea that banner towing is this complicated. The guy is a hero in my eyes for looking out for the people on the ground. BTW: does anybody know how much these banners weigh? It was mentioned that these weigh a lot, but having never been close to these, I have no idea. Thanks
Incidents like this really make me think about the value of some GA operations; does the high risk of banner towing operations even justify the benefits to society? What an unnecessary death of a young pilot, and the risk to people on the ground sounds too great to me.
As a part 135 charter pilot who's been subject to some get-thereitis, I think the one thing that sometimes has saved me has been thinking about how important my mission really is. Taking wealthy people to random destinations is not important in the grand scheme of things and these things can sometimes wait.
The thought of banner towing always scared me. You're basically flying with a drag chute deployed, in a plane that is slow to begin with.
Wow this is such a sad story! I interviewed at that company together with 4 more new kids about 2 months ago, I never heard back so I guess perhaps I didn’t make the cut, although they said we were going to be added one at a time, I hope is not someone from that group, they were all very very young aviators, so horrible to finally get a job that can bring your career dream to reality, just to end in this way. God bless his soul and family!
I don’t understand something: if you are to release the banner when it is above your tail, is the hook and it’s rope not tangling with the tail? Or is it a sideways downward half spiral type maneuver?
What if the aircraft was tip top, but the drag was amplified? Oversize, overweight, not well streamlined, etc.? Extra "stiffening" mods?
I would expect the aircraft to pitch up when the banner is released. That could easily cause a stall/spin accident.
My first flying job was as a banner pilot for Arial Sign Company from North Perry. They told me not to release your banner unless you’re over the airport since the 10lb grappling hook used to pick up banner can kill somebody. I had a similar incident where a banner larger than my Citabria can pull, was placed for me to pick up. I got to 150feet and couldn’t climb much higher. I nursed plane around to airport and dropped the banner. Their training needs to change to pull banner immediately but this will greatly increase risk of those in the ground.
Never been an injury on the ground from dropped banners, in my 32 years in the biz making banner equipment. Any issue, drop immediately. I train all my customers and pilots this
I really appreciate the explanation from the young woman in this video. Inexperienced pilot made a major mistake by attempting a banner drop with the nose high angle of attack instead of nose down dive before the release. My condolences to the family and friends of this pilot.
Only problem with the video is the clips of banner towing from Zachary Lewis showcases tremendously risky and unnecessarily dangerous pickup techniques. Industry standard is a gentle low approach followed by around a 30 degree nose up climb. Diving down towards the banner and then aggressively pulling up like that is a way to mush into the ground while still missing banner pickups regularly.
I almost wonder if this pilot was looking back for the perfect drop zone for the banner, momentarily and unconsciously puts the slightest amount of back pressure on the yoke, and exceeds the critical angle of attack. I truly believe he was doing everything in his power to avoid harming anyone, how tragic! I also wanted to thank AOPA for another informative and respectful discussion on what was another very tragic GA accident.
Or the position of the stick was working for the way the banner was acting, and the second he released it, it was in the totally wrong position for an unloaded plane, so instantly put the plane in the wrong attitude, and then the hard left was an over correction, with not enough altitude to recover. I agree your thoughts plausible.
You are not towing a banner at full power. 2000-2100 rpm. 45-55 knots. If you are towing at full power other than the climb out then your aircraft is underpowered to tow the banner. It is sad he lost his life here but an underpowered aircraft on a hot summer day trying to gain altitude towing a sign! The lesson that can be learned is train more and know that aircraft’s capabilities. Again. It’s very sad he didn’t make it alive from this but we can learn from the Mistakes made here