This is one of many many systems I have coming in Alkander's Almanac! ✔️ Check Out the Kickstarter: www.kickstarter.com/projects/thedungeoncoach/alkanders-almanac-of-all-things
Exhaustion feels like the designers ran out of time before either fully adding or removing the mechanic from the system--the fact that there's only a couple of ways to interact with it makes it pretty obvious that the idea is incomplete.
Initiative is an ability check RAW...so you would have a harder time acting quickly in combat at 1 level of exhaustion "When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. " And it makes a sort of sense...at 1 level you are slow to react perhaps, but then the adrenaline kicks in and you push yourself to fight normally? Some logic to it?
i feel like a lot of solutions to 5e problems are just look at 3.5 and reimplement the way things were done. but 5th did purposefully get rid as much as they could with the whole situational -x or +x, trying to replace it with the simple adv and disadv.
Fully agree. I think 'homebrew' solutions to 5e 'issues' tend to be ignorant of purposeful choices made by the designers of 5e to make the game easier to play - which was a huge success. I think it's really important to think about the cost/benefit very carefully any time you consider making game systems more complex. However, in this one instance I really like the simplicity of -1 to basically everything per level of exhaustion, and then starting to hit your action economy - it is actually very easy to understand, easier to remember, and better represents the concept of 'exhaustion'.
SUPER important though to keep in mind - if you want to maintain the design principles of 5e - this can be the only system that works like this. The design space of small negatives and bonuses to various things is super tempting - there's a million ways you can apply that to increase flavor, fine-tune balance, etc. Conceptually it's way better than advantage/disadvantage, which is far too swingy for most things, and doesn't allow much variance especially with the ruling that instances of both simply cancel out any number of the other. The problem is that as soon as you start doing that (ie flanking is +1/2 per person flanking and so on), the game just grinds to a halt, as on each turn you now have to add all your penalties and bonuses in order to determine your actual hit chances, skill check values, saving throws, DCs, etc - in addition to knowing all the other rules of the game, such as how the spell you're about to use actually works, remembering any conditions you or your opponents have, etc, etc. Great idea, bad tabletop game design. Works amazing in a video game where everything is just calculated automatically for you, but in a game we play with our heads - as much as that restricts the design space - the simpler things are to implement the better. The game just plain feels better when things flow, when turns are relatively short and combat doesn't take forever. Adding a bunch of math to a lot of situations can also really fuck up any sense of drama, urgency, or narrative weight that situation may have.
@@baronaatista The -1 penalty / level exhaustion essentially mimics the negative levels (aka energy drain) of past editions. Like you said, the simplicity of 5E's Advantage/Disadvantage is the big selling point without the need to keep track of all your plus and minus modifiers.
@@crankysmurf I'm well aware - which is why I was pretty clear that this can be the only system that allows for that. There is nothing intrinsically bad about small penalties / bonuses in terms of game design as far as I'm concerned. The issue is simply when you get - as in 3e - multiple instances of penalties and bonuses according to various situations, which then complicates turns with extra math and remembering a ton of rules and sub-rules. I've been playing 5e for 4 years now and I can't - nor can anyone I know - recite the specific rules for each level of exhaustion without consulting the chart essentially every time we need to deal with them. -1 for each level, corresponding with the level, is a super easy rule to learn and remember, and then that it starts to impact your action economy is easy to remember after that. I made my own version of the table this morning when I watched the video, and I'd bet money that me and all my players could recite it perfectly 3 months from now without looking at it again, because each stage flows logically from the last and the rules are clear and simple. In addition, disadvantage just plain feels bad, and I think it makes people a lot less willing to engage with it at all - I'm running a Dark Sun campaign at the moment and even just one level of exhaustion when you're strapped for resources and trying to survive in the wilderness sort of already becomes a death spiral. Even if not, I find players just have an intrinsically negative response to it. -1 on basically everything - despite likely having a very similar overall impact on your performance - I don't think there is the same feeling. It's more like 'yeah that hurts, but we can deal' .... and then each stage afterward just starts to hurt more... but it really takes until level 3 or 4 until it starts to feel like an oppressive issue, which is when it really should. My table goes like this; 1 - -1 penalty to ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws and saving throw DC, -5 ft movement speed (per level) 2 - unable to take reactions 3 - only able to take an action or bonus action on your turn 4 - max HP halved 5 - unable to maintain concentration, disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws 6 - death
@@baronaatista By your own arguments your table makes the game grind to a halt with its first entry, to quote yourself back to you: "The problem is that as soon as you start doing that (ie flanking is +1/2 per person flanking and so on), the game just grinds to a halt, as on each turn you now have to add all your penalties and bonuses in order to determine your actual hit chances, skill check values, saving throws, DCs, etc - in addition to knowing all the other rules of the game, such as how the spell you're about to use actually works, remembering any conditions you or your opponents have, etc, etc. Great idea, bad tabletop game design."
I love how it’s similar to my homebrew -1 to all rolls and DCs AND -5ft movement per level of exhaustion. -Going to 0HP gives you a level of exhaustion.
Oh, apparently a lot of people never played previous editions where undead drained of you levels (3.5E later replaced that with negative levels) instead of using exhaustion.
As usual, a great set of ideas to improve an existing system, thanks DC! A minor point to the first level of exhaustion, RAW: while there aren't a ton of ability checks during combat, initiative IS an ability check, and being lower on the initiative count can present its own disadvantages for players in a combat encounter.
It depends on the combat encounter for sure. Overall, I like your suggestion much better and I'll be talking to my group about it before next game. I use exhaustion a good bit in our campaign, and I hope they will be happy to see a tweak to the system.
Also a good few of the special attacks require an ability check, mostly athletics, some spells require a spell casting ability check, and some monster attacks prompt an ability check, all of which would be affected by level 1 exhaustion.
The thing I don't like about exhaustion is there a different kinds of exhaustion, short and long. Sometimes you're just out of breath and a short rest will bring you right back up. Sometimes it's an underlying condition, like starvation, thirst, chronic pain, etc. In this case I would reference the theory of spoons (the real life version of action economy).
I do like the Exhaustion. Level 1 is skills. your so damn tired its hard to think straight, you fumble your hands a little. Level 2 speed halved. your just moving slower and it takes more to move fast and quickly. Level 3 is finally combat. the reason this isn't earlier is basically adrenaline. you normally get pumped up when in conflict and danger but now your so tired it doesn't even help. Level 4 Hp halved. Hp is so undefined so it could mean that you can't take a hit as well (you did this with vulnerability) Level 5 no movement. This is like being awake for 4 days now and working and you've got nothing but that last bit of will to fight to live (yeah its weird to be able to hit for like 1d8+4 but not move but hey, its fantasy) Level 6 death.
Yeah, when you actually look at the exhaustion system and realize that hit points are a combination between energy, luck, and health, then the exhaustion system actually makes sense. And from someone who has been exhausted to the point of not being able to move, I lost control of my legs LONG before I lost control of my hands. So while I'm so exhausted I couldn't walk, I could still grab that beer that was brought to me or eat that entire bag of beef jerky that handed to me. I wouldn't really call it weird that you can still swing. If you were physically weaker than me while I was exhausted to the point of exhaustion, you could probably throw rocks at me. But if you walked up to me, I could still put you on the ground. I wouldn't want to, but it would be easier than walking another mile.
I truly did not think I would have my mind changed on Exhaustion, but here I am. I'm definitely adopting your first Exhaustion system because it takes the one we're familiar with and knocks it out of the park. The second system makes sense, but it would be harder to recall on the fly. This was a great video, DC. Solved something I didn't even think could be better, and you nailed it.
Love how you listen to the community and work with them so we'll! You always do such a good job of explaining your perspective and giving plenty of options so ANYONE can benefit from the vids!
It's times like this that I look at pathfinder 1e wistfully. What if exhaustion caused you to lose your dex bonus to AC? Or even take a penalty to your strength and dex scores? It makes sense, but I'm not convinced the added hassle of modifying the numbers on the character sheet is worth it for 5e. I think even the numeric modifiers are usually a bit much for me to deal with, but I like the having to choose what kinds of actions you can take. I might even add more choice and risk into the mix. e.g. You can take an additional action/move/etc., but you need to make a con save, and if you fail, you take another level of exhaustion. Maybe that's too punishing - I'm just thinking out loud. Your videos often inspire me to think about stuff like this, which I always appreciate.
My biggest complaint about exhaustion is it's easier to cure cancer than exhaustion..... I mean it's easier to remove curses, diseases and bring someone back to life than it is to remove more than 1 level of exhaustion.
To make combat more deadly and dangerous for my players, I have a feature for when players hit 0hp. If they are brought back, they have to be awaken from being unconscious. But, if they are wearing armor, the armor is now ruined. Meaning, their AC drops to base as if they aren't wearing any until fixed or replaced. Unarmored warriors come back with a level of exhaustion. I think I am going to implement this DC system for exhaustion instead of RAW. Thank you for another great video.
Option 1 really is a good solution... and this is from someone who loves the exhaustion mechanics. I think the disadvantage at lvl 3 is more fun than just -5 cause people like rolling dice (-5 is just a little too math class for my table) and there's a way to overcome your exhaustion, which is cool. Nice and clean this one. Well done. One thing, I think we can look into more ways of getting back those levels. Through spells and maybe some magic items.
I see 0 speed at exhaustion level 5 as "I'm so tired my muscles are numbed from how tired I am". So if a person went 5 days without sleeping that feels about right as most people would be just complete wrecks
Thinking out loud here after watching a great video and reading a bunch of great comments both for and against. I’m thinking about including HD in the exhaustion system in regards to death saves. Unconscious and failing death saves isn’t fun. The purpose of playing is to do things and have fun. So, using Coach’s option 2 in my death save example… If you roll the 10 or higher you spend a hit die as an adrenaline rush (low level PCs obviously don’t have enough HD to cover all the levels of exhaustion levels) and have that many hp and a level of exhaustion. If you fail or have no HD to spend, you have 1hp and a level of exhaustion. You get hit again being reduced to zero hp. Successful save and you push forward spending a HD. Fail and it’s 1 hp. Either way, another level of exhaustion. Rinse and repeat. If the player gets to exhaustion level 6 and dies because they didn’t retreat or run away they have nobody to blame but themselves for staying in the fight. Though it was probably heroic. Needs more thought because its probably too forgiving to the players but was inspired by the video and conversations.
Your method is really cool. I like exhaustion that's the same decrement for each level rather than something different for each one. Easier to remember and implement.
Ive been a manager at a restaurant, and at the end of a busy and exhausting day when Karen comes in I absolutely have disadvantage on any and all diplomacy checks. The 5e rules for it are pretty accurate. Speed slows down as well and I'm pretty sure I've been close to level 6 before.
My alternative: Level 1: Disadvantage on all Skill Checks. -2 to AC. Level 2: Speed Halved. -3 to AC. Level 3: -4 on Attack Rolls. -4 on Saving Throws. -4 to AC. Your Spell Save DC -4. Level 4: Vulnerable to all damage types. Level 5: Speed 10", No Reactions, No Concentration. Level 6: Unconscious
I really like the -1 per level idea. 😁 My homebrew Exhaustion system (which I haven't tested yet) is that each Ability Score can be "Exhausted" individually. This grants Disadvantage on all rolls involving that Score and a -5 to any DCs tied to that Score. When I start DMing again, I'm gonna show my Players my system and your system and see which they'd prefer to try. 😊
Simple is best especially with new players. Keep the game fast and simple. I play a heavily homebrewed Pathfinder 2e with the stamina rules applied to Hit Points. In a nut shell - effectively, when you are down to half your hit points fatigue is applied. level 1 = -2 to all d 20 rolls level 2 = -2 to your AC (your movement is sluggish) level 3 = Half movement speed and lose 1 action (a Pathfinder thing) How level 2 & 3 get applied in Pathfinder is a whole other discussion for a Pathfinder Forum.
Coach you did it again. Taking something not just right and adding layers. Exhaustion should FEEL as if it grows upon you. Like running a 400, then an 800, to trying to solve a math problem after a consecutive 1600!!
Exhausted mechanics is always one of those things that I want to use but my players always have some means of working around it. I never realize how swingy they were. I can't wait to apply some of these. Fantastic video as always Coach
@@josephdellavecchia7828 I am pleased you exist in such a player rich environment. I hope it works out for you. But yer comment sounds like yer players are already running roughshod over yer gamemastering.
In the new Guide to Ravenloft they introduced the Stress system where you accumulate stress points and minus that from your rolls depending on how many points you have. It’s a neat addition to exhaustion’s system. I do really like your system you run though, sounds very neat; preserves this idea that you have to be more efficient with your energy. Be more thoughtful with smaller resources.
So here's what I use instead. Reduce rolls by double the exhaustion level as a die. And subtract 5 from Speed. 1: -d2 2: -d4 3: -d6 4: -d8 5: -d10 Very fast and easy. Or, literally make it feel a little like PF2E and just straight up reduce by the value. Maybe also reduce AC, since dodging and deflecting is harder. D&D 5E is already in the top 3 most complicated ttrpgs I've ever played out of dozens. It doesn't need to be made more complex, but instead deeper or more engaging.
I love it. It's like I do but more siimple and easy to remember. I like to have more levels so its more gradual and the only thing i see about it is that low level is much more punishing than higher levels. If you like it that way great, I made it so that my players can choose if they want it to be more balanced throughout. But great work and idea.
I use the exhaustion system from Grit and Glory. Exhaustion is broken into soft and heavy exhaustion. Soft exhaustion is levels 1 through 3. Heavy exhaustion is 4 through 6. You can recover a level of soft exhaustion on a short rest, or 2 levels on a long rest. Heavy exhaustion can only be recovered on a long rest. When you reach exhaustion level 3 and your do something that would give you another level of exhaustion you lose a hit dice if you have any available. If you don't have any hit dice left then you move to exhaustion level 4. This makes higher level characters more resilient than lower level ones.
Level 1 - disadvantage on all strength and dexterity skill and ability checks. And you can't take the dash action. Level 2 - Disadvantage on all skill and ability checks and your speed is halved. Level 3 - Disadvantage on all attack and saving throw rolls.
Level 4 - You can only take an action or a bonus action on your turn and you can't use reactions. You can only concentrate on one thing at a time. An enemy target or a spell. Level 5 - Speed is reduced to 5'. You can't concentrate or cast concentration spells. Level 6 - You are dying.
I think the -1 per level to all rolls is a great way to do exhaustion. Currently playing adventures in Middle earth where Exhaustion is a big mechanic in Journeys and players hate Disadvantage to all ability checks on Level 1. Especially as you can't Long Rest to the End of an Adventure at a safe haven.
Following your Kickstarter for the announcement. Like the exhaustion changes and will introduce to the Sea Of Moving Ice where my party are going soon.
I never thought about how exhaustion is almost entirely a Player Character condition. It’s in the condition section and there are a few creatures that are actually immune to it, but there’s what? 1 spell that can temporarily cause the condition? Sickening radiance, and maybe the dream spell?
Yes, but I think you can stretch it so you can use it for you as DM. I like to think about exhaustion in long dungeon crawls and in pursuits/deliver/collect adventures most of all. If you're having your baddies (or whatever NPC's) making progress separately through the dungeon or racing the PC's, you might wanna give some exhaustion so they have the upper hand over the players. So it now depends on what the player's do. They rest often and lose ground (even if they don't know it), or they risk it and go on. If they do both parties would have disadvantages, if they don't, then when they reach the destination it would be pillaged/whatever. And now they'll have to pursue the other party, which will have to rest. You feel me? And this could happen in so many other situations you want.
@@hugomartinezvazquez1671 Well that entire scenario actually illustrates my point. Why is the PC party the only one dealing with exhaustion. Enemies don’t need to rest either? You get that the “rival” party probably has some narrative advantage, but they’re probably people too. Unless they’re constructs, elementals, or undead or something like that. On top of that, almost all creatures the party are likely to go up against are designed to have all their resources. The party is designed to have full hitpoints, but not full resources.
@@binolombardi Yeah, I totally get it. I meant that the enemies must get exhaustion levels to get ahead if they want to gain on your players. And then your players do the same to catch them later, so they meet in similar states. But you also mentioned something interesting about resources. I absolutely dig the concept of the enemies having to waste spells or abilities too. Maybe even loosing some minions so the enemy party is more of the hefty baddies who could survive. Nice idea, you could even make it so the spells/whatever they used is different from those of the players, so they have to find a creative way to overcome them.
I mean, typically, monsters are found in their lairs, so they aren't coming from a long journey, fighting through waves of foes. It wouldn't make sense for them to be exhausted. Creatures encountered in the wild are usually in their environment. If there was something in the narrative about famine, perhaps they could be starved, but otherwise, one assumes they have what it takes to survive out there, which is why they are out there to begin with. It wouldn't make sense for them to be exhausted. As mentioned above, several types of monsters don't have Earthling biologics, such as undead, constructs, aberrations, fey, celestials, fiends, oozes, others. It wouldn't make sense for them to be exhausted. The heroes are the main focus of the story. They are generally travelling to places where their resources aren't readily restorable. They are often out of their element. They tend to get into a lot of fights. It makes sense for them to be exhausted. Trying to enforce exhaustion on a foe is hardly worth it, as it would take 2-3 degrees of such to really start to matter. If such possibilities existed, it would work against the heroes much worse than for the monsters.
I think I'm gonna mix them, Because I've never been big on exhaustion, But these effects seem very flavourful, So I'm probably gonna make it a 10 level table. That way it mirrors the drunkenness rules from Taverns and Tankards by Mage Hand Press, Which I use all the time.
Natural odd-numbered rolls give -1 or -2 per exhaustion level (to taste) on the end result. Smooth it out instead of going straight to Disadvantage, and keep the modifiers from completely nerfing player rolls all the time. Took a little inspiration from The One Ring RPG where high rolls are kept on the dice, but the weaker rolls are ignored for the dice pool.
Thanks Dungeon Coach for giving us an idea to think out side the box. It would be cool idea to have a Exhaustion chart that includes effect specific for martial and full casters classes. Now the key with that chart is that how would one apply it to the half casters of the party. Another idea that occurred to me, why does it need to be 6 levels of exhaustion why not 12 levels. Give them a chance to make it a little more challenging and memorable.
Another great video. I really like these changes, they're really easy to implement and feel better to me. And I love that you showed a variety of options.
I love that suggestion of lvl 6 being unconscious. I may implement it into mine that it's unconscious for 24 hours but that clears them back up to lvl 2 exhaustion. Force those dorks to nap.
In my games, characters pick up a level of exhaustion by going to 0 hp, to it happens more often. While the first level may not seem like much, it's like a warning. Three levels is where things go south fast - disadvantage on saves (including death saves). My recovery mechanic for exhaustion is a more complex. A long rest gives a CON save to recover a level of exhaustion, with the DC determined by the conditions. Parties are encouraged to have proper camping gear and at least one person with Survival while travelling/adventuring, and there's a benefit to splurging for better accommodations. I do have to house rule some abilities that affect exhaustion - generally if it removes one level, like the Ranger Tireless, it's fine, but if removes all levels I nerf it to removing one (can't think of a specific one, but it seems like I've seen it, possibly in homebrew or playtest material). I find the idea of each level/stack inflicting a -1/-5' penalty appealing for its simplicity, but it might be so simple it gets forgotten. I'll have to chew on that one.
My exhaustion is also inspired by the slow spell. At Lv3 Exhaustion however, I take away proficiency from everything; attacks, saving throws, skill checks and saving DC lol
You mentioned a possible homebrew rule of crits causing exhaustion. In my game we use a crit table, and a few of the results cause exhaustion. I believe 100 is extra damage dice, permanent scare and exhaustion
I really think the system as-is needs to be used *more* not less, like an exhaustion level for each time someone is knocked out to 0 HP. It gives consequence in combat, instead of it being whac-a-mole countered by Healing Word. The Saga Edition of the D20 Star Wars RPG did something similar.
Hey Coach, do you have any homebrew ideas for how to have diseases in your game, but also not have them be too impactful or not impactful enough? Like how you talked about exhaustion here? Either way, I love these new tables! They make exhaustion a whole lot better! -Thanks coach!
Doubling damage is worse than halving max HP, because it essentially halves healing. Ex: 50 HP halved to 25HP - hit 10 HP then healed 8 HP puts them at 23 HP (of 25). 50 HP - hit 20 (10 doubled) then healed for 8 (not doubled) puts them at 38 HP (of 50). It feels like the lower HP is worse, but it's not.
Yeah exhaustion is kind of hard to keep track of but I'm not sure about some of these ones because from the looks of it you only get the worst of the effect ex. Half speed and speed becomes 5ft you only suffer the more serous of the two or with the -2 to your rolls vs -5 to rolls but this does give me an idea for my own chart 1.-2 to all rolls 2. Half speed 3.-2 to all rolls (-4 total) 4. No reaction 5. -2 to all rolls (-6 total) 6. Death By themselves not a big deal but with everything stacking strains the player might switch #3 to -3 (-5 total) and #5 to something a bit harsher
I always thought that the exhaustion levels were gained. So, you gain first level exhaustion and all that comes with it, and then if you have second level exhaustion, you have the first levels effect WITH the second levels effects, and then so and so forth
I think he meant that some people feel the effects are just disjointed and way too sudden. Like, from full speed to half speed out of nowhere. From fully ok to full disadvantage on 1 level. But even if it is abrupt, sometimes it doesn't even feel like it matters, even more so for spellcasters.
@@yanderenejoyer The "system" proposed is really just GM adjudication. A great GM can look at the sitch and make a wise ruling. For this kind of "all roleplay no limits" type D&D, you don't really need any exhaustion or encumbrance rules. just a good GM. The rules were first set out for a GAME, not a weekly storytelling session. Once you acknowledge you are not really playing a game, but telling a story, you don't need to buy any rulebooks or PDFs. Tell yer story the way you want, pretending to use rules is only holding you back. OSR guys (the guys with all the limiting rules and crummy art work) are happy with rules that don't change every session because the GM watched some You Tube over the weekend.
@@vincejester7558 ...I feel you went into a really big rant there. But I doubt people just introduce this kind of thing mid game; I tend to test these ideas with one shots and implement whatever I feel is useful next campaing, most of the time with easier to remember implications. I don't know why you went on about not using rules, some people just have a different vision of how a game should feel in order to be fun, and more realistic mechanics may be part of said visions. Though, as I said, never heard of implementing new stuff like this out of the blue, or with any frequency.
@@yanderenejoyer Just some observations on how the game has really split into two completely different things, and how the "brand" is suffering from trying to be both the original concept and the communal storytelling entity 5e has become. The connection is so tenuous, and the new thing so aggressive, That I think it deserves to have its own name and brand to grow into what 5e wants to be, without trashing what it was on the way out. Maybe "Tasha's RPF of everything" or "Into the Witchlight and Beyond".
5 points of exhaustion cutting your speed to 0 makes sense to me. It’s the equivalent of the game it’s self telling you to go to sleep. Since after all 6 points of exhaustion means you die.
I homebrew where you go up to 7 stacks but 6 is heart attack from exhaustion, forcing a DC 20 con save or fall unconscious at 0 hp and make death saves at disadvantage.
You mean vulnerability to all damage? Yeah, it does make sense, but it is just more math at the table, when, in effect, it just results in the same thing that half hit point max does, but you only need to do that once, when taking on that degree of exhaustion, and never refer to it again. Vulnerability works, but why is it better when it is just more complex for pretty much the same result?
As always really enjoying your ideas. Would like to see your thoughts on accruing and removing exhaustion lvls. Personally been toying with an idea of casters being able to up-cast without a higher slot or cast above their level, but would add levels of exhaustion.
We have a wound system in our game. I allow casters to cast a spell even if they have no spell slots left. But it costs them a level of exhaustion and a wound for each level of the spell they cast.
I was thinking since you had that poll of something I'd like to see in a game which is a cumulative number that they have to roll against and if they roll over it they're fine, equal or under it they fail. For example every time they use an ability or fail a con check against an exhaustion effect, the number would increase by 1 and they'd roll a d20. If they roll the exhaustion number or lower, something like getting -1 to all rolls would happen then the exhaustion number would reset again and start at 0. Maybe constitution could come into play and would add to this d20 making it harder to fail.
Check out the exhaustion system in Grit and Glory. The first 3 levels of exhaustion are soft exhaustion and you can recover a level of soft exhaustion on a short rest. Levels 4 through 6 are heavy exhaustion and recovery is as per RAW.
Honestly, I'm surprised someone is talking about the exhaustion system at all. Exhaustion is rarely, if ever, used from what I'm aware of. I wish there were more ways to incorporate exhaustion in games.
Perhaps it's because I've been exhausted to the point of not being able to move, but I don't see a problem with exhaustion RAW. I think it's pretty accurate to how I've felt through various stages of exhaustion. I'm not sure everyone has physically worked themselves to the point of collapse (not heat stress). All of that being said, your method 1 is actually pretty nice. I think a speed of 5 is too generous. Having been "stage 5 exhausted" I would suggest a full round action to move 5 feet rather than a speed of 5 because when I've been exhausted to that point, sure I could move, but it was literally a chore whether I'm crawling or walking. I wouldn't let someone move 5 feet and have other actions.
Vulnerability to all damage is mathematically the same as halving your max HP but it is not the same in the terms of D&D as there are multiple ways to negate this with spells, potions of resistance, barbarian abilities, and magic items. Also I have to check how that would interact with creature abilities that lower overall max HP, Im not entirely sure if the creature ability to lower max hp would stack with that vulnerability or not and yes that does make a huge difference as some of these require long rests or even spells to remove.
The 5e rules for exhaustion is ok but your first method is perfect. I will be using this from now on and I would love to see your other ideas on exhaustion. I can only assume a spa is involved in removing levels of exhaustion? Btw love the shirt.
I like ideas and just started following this guy but at the same time im getting the vibe he wants to homebrew rules A LOT. Dude just write a new system at that point.
Like the vulnerability and no reaction part. Easier math. I already use a +/- system. Flanking is +2atk, outnumbered is -2ac to those attacks, 2 advantage is +2, 3 is +4, same with disadvantage to minus.
I'm toying with the idea of corrupting magic in my game: make a DC 8 plus spell level cast (cantrips not rolled) vs Arcana/religion (etc for various casters). Failure mean simply nothing happens and spell slot is not spent. Critical failure: 1 level of exhaustion applied. I'm seriously going to use your 2nd Exhaustion homebrew for this.
I like your higher levels of exhaustion. I still think someone is going to be able to move to make it to the bathroom when they are home sick with a bad case of food poisoning. Yes you're exhausted, but when you got to make it to the bathroom, you still make it 🙂.
Oh this is super interesting! Definitely want to play around with these ideas, thank you! THough I'm curious, is expanding it beyond 6 levels in a more gritty setting with lots of ways to get exhausted a good idea, or would that just make it less effective? I also like the idea of making a Constitution check to temporarily overcome exhaustion for a turn. Just that little narrative OOMF for the character to go beyond and push themselves, while also making Con more useful in game as a whole.
![ทุกครั้งที่หลับตา (Lucid Dream) - AYLA's [ Official MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4i1OBAQyv58/mqdefault.jpg)
This is one of many many systems I have coming in Alkander's Almanac!
✔️ Check Out the Kickstarter: www.kickstarter.com/projects/thedungeoncoach/alkanders-almanac-of-all-things
I don't even hate standard exhaustion rules, but after seeing option 1.....
@@TheDungeonCoach there's a reason I have my alarm set every Sunday
Exhaustion feels like the designers ran out of time before either fully adding or removing the mechanic from the system--the fact that there's only a couple of ways to interact with it makes it pretty obvious that the idea is incomplete.
Initiative is an ability check RAW...so you would have a harder time acting quickly in combat at 1 level of exhaustion
"When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. "
And it makes a sort of sense...at 1 level you are slow to react perhaps, but then the adrenaline kicks in and you push yourself to fight normally? Some logic to it?
i feel like a lot of solutions to 5e problems are just look at 3.5 and reimplement the way things were done. but 5th did purposefully get rid as much as they could with the whole situational -x or +x, trying to replace it with the simple adv and disadv.
Fully agree. I think 'homebrew' solutions to 5e 'issues' tend to be ignorant of purposeful choices made by the designers of 5e to make the game easier to play - which was a huge success. I think it's really important to think about the cost/benefit very carefully any time you consider making game systems more complex.
However, in this one instance I really like the simplicity of -1 to basically everything per level of exhaustion, and then starting to hit your action economy - it is actually very easy to understand, easier to remember, and better represents the concept of 'exhaustion'.
SUPER important though to keep in mind - if you want to maintain the design principles of 5e - this can be the only system that works like this.
The design space of small negatives and bonuses to various things is super tempting - there's a million ways you can apply that to increase flavor, fine-tune balance, etc. Conceptually it's way better than advantage/disadvantage, which is far too swingy for most things, and doesn't allow much variance especially with the ruling that instances of both simply cancel out any number of the other.
The problem is that as soon as you start doing that (ie flanking is +1/2 per person flanking and so on), the game just grinds to a halt, as on each turn you now have to add all your penalties and bonuses in order to determine your actual hit chances, skill check values, saving throws, DCs, etc - in addition to knowing all the other rules of the game, such as how the spell you're about to use actually works, remembering any conditions you or your opponents have, etc, etc.
Great idea, bad tabletop game design.
Works amazing in a video game where everything is just calculated automatically for you, but in a game we play with our heads - as much as that restricts the design space - the simpler things are to implement the better. The game just plain feels better when things flow, when turns are relatively short and combat doesn't take forever. Adding a bunch of math to a lot of situations can also really fuck up any sense of drama, urgency, or narrative weight that situation may have.
@@baronaatista The -1 penalty / level exhaustion essentially mimics the negative levels (aka energy drain) of past editions. Like you said, the simplicity of 5E's Advantage/Disadvantage is the big selling point without the need to keep track of all your plus and minus modifiers.
@@crankysmurf I'm well aware - which is why I was pretty clear that this can be the only system that allows for that. There is nothing intrinsically bad about small penalties / bonuses in terms of game design as far as I'm concerned. The issue is simply when you get - as in 3e - multiple instances of penalties and bonuses according to various situations, which then complicates turns with extra math and remembering a ton of rules and sub-rules.
I've been playing 5e for 4 years now and I can't - nor can anyone I know - recite the specific rules for each level of exhaustion without consulting the chart essentially every time we need to deal with them.
-1 for each level, corresponding with the level, is a super easy rule to learn and remember, and then that it starts to impact your action economy is easy to remember after that. I made my own version of the table this morning when I watched the video, and I'd bet money that me and all my players could recite it perfectly 3 months from now without looking at it again, because each stage flows logically from the last and the rules are clear and simple.
In addition, disadvantage just plain feels bad, and I think it makes people a lot less willing to engage with it at all - I'm running a Dark Sun campaign at the moment and even just one level of exhaustion when you're strapped for resources and trying to survive in the wilderness sort of already becomes a death spiral. Even if not, I find players just have an intrinsically negative response to it.
-1 on basically everything - despite likely having a very similar overall impact on your performance - I don't think there is the same feeling. It's more like 'yeah that hurts, but we can deal' .... and then each stage afterward just starts to hurt more... but it really takes until level 3 or 4 until it starts to feel like an oppressive issue, which is when it really should.
My table goes like this;
1 - -1 penalty to ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws and saving throw DC, -5 ft movement speed (per level)
2 - unable to take reactions
3 - only able to take an action or bonus action on your turn
4 - max HP halved
5 - unable to maintain concentration, disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws
6 - death
@@baronaatista By your own arguments your table makes the game grind to a halt with its first entry, to quote yourself back to you:
"The problem is that as soon as you start doing that (ie flanking is +1/2 per person flanking and so on), the game just grinds to a halt, as on each turn you now have to add all your penalties and bonuses in order to determine your actual hit chances, skill check values, saving throws, DCs, etc - in addition to knowing all the other rules of the game, such as how the spell you're about to use actually works, remembering any conditions you or your opponents have, etc, etc.
Great idea, bad tabletop game design."
I agree, I've had to tweak the 5e exhaustion for my players to make it more interactive and interesting. I like your ideas, Coach!
I love how it’s similar to my homebrew
-1 to all rolls and DCs AND -5ft movement per level of exhaustion.
-Going to 0HP gives you a level of exhaustion.
Oh, apparently a lot of people never played previous editions where undead drained of you levels (3.5E later replaced that with negative levels) instead of using exhaustion.
As usual, a great set of ideas to improve an existing system, thanks DC!
A minor point to the first level of exhaustion, RAW: while there aren't a ton of ability checks during combat, initiative IS an ability check, and being lower on the initiative count can present its own disadvantages for players in a combat encounter.
It depends on the combat encounter for sure. Overall, I like your suggestion much better and I'll be talking to my group about it before next game. I use exhaustion a good bit in our campaign, and I hope they will be happy to see a tweak to the system.
Also a good few of the special attacks require an ability check, mostly athletics, some spells require a spell casting ability check, and some monster attacks prompt an ability check, all of which would be affected by level 1 exhaustion.
The thing I don't like about exhaustion is there a different kinds of exhaustion, short and long.
Sometimes you're just out of breath and a short rest will bring you right back up.
Sometimes it's an underlying condition, like starvation, thirst, chronic pain, etc. In this case I would reference the theory of spoons (the real life version of action economy).
I do like the Exhaustion.
Level 1 is skills. your so damn tired its hard to think straight, you fumble your hands a little.
Level 2 speed halved. your just moving slower and it takes more to move fast and quickly.
Level 3 is finally combat. the reason this isn't earlier is basically adrenaline. you normally get pumped up when in conflict and danger but now your so tired it doesn't even help.
Level 4 Hp halved. Hp is so undefined so it could mean that you can't take a hit as well (you did this with vulnerability)
Level 5 no movement. This is like being awake for 4 days now and working and you've got nothing but that last bit of will to fight to live (yeah its weird to be able to hit for like 1d8+4 but not move but hey, its fantasy)
Level 6 death.
Yeah, when you actually look at the exhaustion system and realize that hit points are a combination between energy, luck, and health, then the exhaustion system actually makes sense. And from someone who has been exhausted to the point of not being able to move, I lost control of my legs LONG before I lost control of my hands. So while I'm so exhausted I couldn't walk, I could still grab that beer that was brought to me or eat that entire bag of beef jerky that handed to me.
I wouldn't really call it weird that you can still swing. If you were physically weaker than me while I was exhausted to the point of exhaustion, you could probably throw rocks at me. But if you walked up to me, I could still put you on the ground. I wouldn't want to, but it would be easier than walking another mile.
Whether or not it's kinda realistic is separate from whether it's a well designed and integrated game mechanic though
My version of Exhaustion
Very interested in more homebrew ideas for using exhaustion! Always thought there weren’t enough ways to actually incorporate exhaustion into play
I like this a lot more Coach! Def gonna have to implement this in my games
I truly did not think I would have my mind changed on Exhaustion, but here I am. I'm definitely adopting your first Exhaustion system because it takes the one we're familiar with and knocks it out of the park. The second system makes sense, but it would be harder to recall on the fly. This was a great video, DC. Solved something I didn't even think could be better, and you nailed it.
Love how you listen to the community and work with them so we'll! You always do such a good job of explaining your perspective and giving plenty of options so ANYONE can benefit from the vids!
Loving this idea bc my bbeg has an attack that will give out levels of exhaustion.
It's times like this that I look at pathfinder 1e wistfully. What if exhaustion caused you to lose your dex bonus to AC? Or even take a penalty to your strength and dex scores? It makes sense, but I'm not convinced the added hassle of modifying the numbers on the character sheet is worth it for 5e.
I think even the numeric modifiers are usually a bit much for me to deal with, but I like the having to choose what kinds of actions you can take. I might even add more choice and risk into the mix. e.g. You can take an additional action/move/etc., but you need to make a con save, and if you fail, you take another level of exhaustion. Maybe that's too punishing - I'm just thinking out loud. Your videos often inspire me to think about stuff like this, which I always appreciate.
Woah those are some great ideas!! And yea it’s all about punishing you want it to be
My biggest complaint about exhaustion is it's easier to cure cancer than exhaustion..... I mean it's easier to remove curses, diseases and bring someone back to life than it is to remove more than 1 level of exhaustion.
To make combat more deadly and dangerous for my players, I have a feature for when players hit 0hp. If they are brought back, they have to be awaken from being unconscious. But, if they are wearing armor, the armor is now ruined. Meaning, their AC drops to base as if they aren't wearing any until fixed or replaced. Unarmored warriors come back with a level of exhaustion. I think I am going to implement this DC system for exhaustion instead of RAW. Thank you for another great video.
Option 1 really is a good solution... and this is from someone who loves the exhaustion mechanics. I think the disadvantage at lvl 3 is more fun than just -5 cause people like rolling dice (-5 is just a little too math class for my table) and there's a way to overcome your exhaustion, which is cool. Nice and clean this one. Well done.
One thing, I think we can look into more ways of getting back those levels. Through spells and maybe some magic items.
I was in the situation where I liked exhaustion but I like this better. You have a lot of really good points
I see 0 speed at exhaustion level 5 as "I'm so tired my muscles are numbed from how tired I am". So if a person went 5 days without sleeping that feels about right as most people would be just complete wrecks
Thinking out loud here after watching a great video and reading a bunch of great comments both for and against.
I’m thinking about including HD in the exhaustion system in regards to death saves.
Unconscious and failing death saves isn’t fun. The purpose of playing is to do things and have fun. So, using Coach’s option 2 in my death save example…
If you roll the 10 or higher you spend a hit die as an adrenaline rush (low level PCs obviously don’t have enough HD to cover all the levels of exhaustion levels) and have that many hp and a level of exhaustion.
If you fail or have no HD to spend, you have 1hp and a level of exhaustion.
You get hit again being reduced to zero hp. Successful save and you push forward spending a HD. Fail and it’s 1 hp. Either way, another level of exhaustion.
Rinse and repeat.
If the player gets to exhaustion level 6 and dies because they didn’t retreat or run away they have nobody to blame but themselves for staying in the fight. Though it was probably heroic.
Needs more thought because its probably too forgiving to the players but was inspired by the video and conversations.
Your method is really cool. I like exhaustion that's the same decrement for each level rather than something different for each one. Easier to remember and implement.
On your DC exhaustion lv 4, I'd drop cantrips down to tier 1 as well. The tier system in cantrips is a spellcasting mirror to martial multiattack.
Ooooo Yea I thought about reducing spells, but straight cantrips is punishing... but fits Exaustion for usre
Ive been a manager at a restaurant, and at the end of a busy and exhausting day when Karen comes in I absolutely have disadvantage on any and all diplomacy checks.
The 5e rules for it are pretty accurate. Speed slows down as well and I'm pretty sure I've been close to level 6 before.
I think Karen just has that effect on people.
My alternative: Level 1: Disadvantage on all Skill Checks. -2 to AC. Level 2: Speed Halved. -3 to AC. Level 3: -4 on Attack Rolls. -4 on Saving Throws. -4 to AC. Your Spell Save DC -4. Level 4: Vulnerable to all damage types. Level 5: Speed 10", No Reactions, No Concentration. Level 6: Unconscious
I really like the -1 per level idea. 😁
My homebrew Exhaustion system (which I haven't tested yet) is that each Ability Score can be "Exhausted" individually. This grants Disadvantage on all rolls involving that Score and a -5 to any DCs tied to that Score.
When I start DMing again, I'm gonna show my Players my system and your system and see which they'd prefer to try. 😊
Simple is best especially with new players. Keep the game fast and simple.
I play a heavily homebrewed Pathfinder 2e with the stamina rules applied to Hit Points.
In a nut shell - effectively, when you are down to half your hit points fatigue is applied.
level 1 = -2 to all d 20 rolls
level 2 = -2 to your AC (your movement is sluggish)
level 3 = Half movement speed and lose 1 action (a Pathfinder thing)
How level 2 & 3 get applied in Pathfinder is a whole other discussion for a Pathfinder Forum.
Coach you did it again. Taking something not just right and adding layers. Exhaustion should FEEL as if it grows upon you. Like running a 400, then an 800, to trying to solve a math problem after a consecutive 1600!!
Exhausted mechanics is always one of those things that I want to use but my players always have some means of working around it. I never realize how swingy they were. I can't wait to apply some of these. Fantastic video as always Coach
Yer not gonna use any exhaustion rules. Yer gonna let yer players do whatever they want, or they'll walk.
@@vincejester7558 if they are so ready to leave, then I say let them walk. I run games, I can always find new players lolol
@@josephdellavecchia7828 I am pleased you exist in such a player rich environment. I hope it works out for you. But yer comment sounds like yer players are already running roughshod over yer gamemastering.
I was sceptical going in, but I must admit you have some good ideas there.
I love the ideas to improve the exhausted rules. Thumbs up.
In the new Guide to Ravenloft they introduced the Stress system where you accumulate stress points and minus that from your rolls depending on how many points you have. It’s a neat addition to exhaustion’s system.
I do really like your system you run though, sounds very neat; preserves this idea that you have to be more efficient with your energy. Be more thoughtful with smaller resources.
Just before you release this as PDF 8:09 says "loose 5ft" instead of "lose 5ft"
Nice catch!! 👌🏼💜
The 5ft fell off your movement speed. Should have tied it down more securely.
So here's what I use instead.
Reduce rolls by double the exhaustion level as a die. And subtract 5 from Speed.
1: -d2
2: -d4
3: -d6
4: -d8
5: -d10
Very fast and easy. Or, literally make it feel a little like PF2E and just straight up reduce by the value. Maybe also reduce AC, since dodging and deflecting is harder.
D&D 5E is already in the top 3 most complicated ttrpgs I've ever played out of dozens. It doesn't need to be made more complex, but instead deeper or more engaging.
I love it. It's like I do but more siimple and easy to remember. I like to have more levels so its more gradual and the only thing i see about it is that low level is much more punishing than higher levels. If you like it that way great, I made it so that my players can choose if they want it to be more balanced throughout. But great work and idea.
I'll need to talk to my group about changing it to one of these options or a blend of the two. Great vid!
Not a huge fan of either of these compared to raw (I haven't found exhaustion to be too lacking), but always happy to get more ideas flowing!!!
I use the exhaustion system from Grit and Glory. Exhaustion is broken into soft and heavy exhaustion. Soft exhaustion is levels 1 through 3. Heavy exhaustion is 4 through 6. You can recover a level of soft exhaustion on a short rest, or 2 levels on a long rest. Heavy exhaustion can only be recovered on a long rest.
When you reach exhaustion level 3 and your do something that would give you another level of exhaustion you lose a hit dice if you have any available. If you don't have any hit dice left then you move to exhaustion level 4. This makes higher level characters more resilient than lower level ones.
Level 1 - disadvantage on all strength and dexterity skill and ability checks. And you can't take the dash action.
Level 2 - Disadvantage on all skill and ability checks and your speed is halved.
Level 3 - Disadvantage on all attack and saving throw rolls.
Level 4 - You can only take an action or a bonus action on your turn and you can't use reactions. You can only concentrate on one thing at a time. An enemy target or a spell.
Level 5 - Speed is reduced to 5'. You can't concentrate or cast concentration spells.
Level 6 - You are dying.
I think the -1 per level to all rolls is a great way to do exhaustion. Currently playing adventures in Middle earth where Exhaustion is a big mechanic in Journeys and players hate Disadvantage to all ability checks on Level 1. Especially as you can't Long Rest to the End of an Adventure at a safe haven.
Love it. The simple system. Instead of vulnerability being double damage, I will do half damage extra
Following your Kickstarter for the announcement. Like the exhaustion changes and will introduce to the Sea Of Moving Ice where my party are going soon.
I never thought about how exhaustion is almost entirely a Player Character condition.
It’s in the condition section and there are a few creatures that are actually immune to it, but there’s what? 1 spell that can temporarily cause the condition?
Sickening radiance, and maybe the dream spell?
Exactly!!! So much room for options here!!
Yes, but I think you can stretch it so you can use it for you as DM. I like to think about exhaustion in long dungeon crawls and in pursuits/deliver/collect adventures most of all. If you're having your baddies (or whatever NPC's) making progress separately through the dungeon or racing the PC's, you might wanna give some exhaustion so they have the upper hand over the players. So it now depends on what the player's do. They rest often and lose ground (even if they don't know it), or they risk it and go on. If they do both parties would have disadvantages, if they don't, then when they reach the destination it would be pillaged/whatever. And now they'll have to pursue the other party, which will have to rest.
You feel me? And this could happen in so many other situations you want.
@@hugomartinezvazquez1671
Well that entire scenario actually illustrates my point. Why is the PC party the only one dealing with exhaustion. Enemies don’t need to rest either? You get that the “rival” party probably has some narrative advantage, but they’re probably people too. Unless they’re constructs, elementals, or undead or something like that.
On top of that, almost all creatures the party are likely to go up against are designed to have all their resources. The party is designed to have full hitpoints, but not full resources.
@@binolombardi Yeah, I totally get it. I meant that the enemies must get exhaustion levels to get ahead if they want to gain on your players. And then your players do the same to catch them later, so they meet in similar states.
But you also mentioned something interesting about resources. I absolutely dig the concept of the enemies having to waste spells or abilities too. Maybe even loosing some minions so the enemy party is more of the hefty baddies who could survive.
Nice idea, you could even make it so the spells/whatever they used is different from those of the players, so they have to find a creative way to overcome them.
I mean, typically, monsters are found in their lairs, so they aren't coming from a long journey, fighting through waves of foes. It wouldn't make sense for them to be exhausted.
Creatures encountered in the wild are usually in their environment. If there was something in the narrative about famine, perhaps they could be starved, but otherwise, one assumes they have what it takes to survive out there, which is why they are out there to begin with. It wouldn't make sense for them to be exhausted.
As mentioned above, several types of monsters don't have Earthling biologics, such as undead, constructs, aberrations, fey, celestials, fiends, oozes, others. It wouldn't make sense for them to be exhausted.
The heroes are the main focus of the story. They are generally travelling to places where their resources aren't readily restorable. They are often out of their element. They tend to get into a lot of fights. It makes sense for them to be exhausted.
Trying to enforce exhaustion on a foe is hardly worth it, as it would take 2-3 degrees of such to really start to matter. If such possibilities existed, it would work against the heroes much worse than for the monsters.
I think I'm gonna mix them,
Because I've never been big on exhaustion,
But these effects seem very flavourful,
So I'm probably gonna make it a 10 level table.
That way it mirrors the drunkenness rules from Taverns and Tankards by Mage Hand Press,
Which I use all the time.
Natural odd-numbered rolls give -1 or -2 per exhaustion level (to taste) on the end result. Smooth it out instead of going straight to Disadvantage, and keep the modifiers from completely nerfing player rolls all the time.
Took a little inspiration from The One Ring RPG where high rolls are kept on the dice, but the weaker rolls are ignored for the dice pool.
Thanks Dungeon Coach for giving us an idea to think out side the box.
It would be cool idea to have a Exhaustion chart that includes effect specific for martial and full casters classes. Now the key with that chart is that how would one apply it to the half casters of the party.
Another idea that occurred to me, why does it need to be 6 levels of exhaustion why not 12 levels. Give them a chance to make it a little more challenging and memorable.
I admit I made my first comment before finishing the vid. 🙃 I really like these new variants you devised. They're simple and give real consequence.
Hey I just wanna thank you for your work
I'm always happy to hear about your homebrew ideas and experience!
Another great video. I really like these changes, they're really easy to implement and feel better to me. And I love that you showed a variety of options.
I really like your first system! Can't wait to see the book!
I love that suggestion of lvl 6 being unconscious. I may implement it into mine that it's unconscious for 24 hours but that clears them back up to lvl 2 exhaustion. Force those dorks to nap.
Ok DC. I started this video with skepticism. I ended it ready to buy your book.
In my games, characters pick up a level of exhaustion by going to 0 hp, to it happens more often. While the first level may not seem like much, it's like a warning. Three levels is where things go south fast - disadvantage on saves (including death saves).
My recovery mechanic for exhaustion is a more complex. A long rest gives a CON save to recover a level of exhaustion, with the DC determined by the conditions. Parties are encouraged to have proper camping gear and at least one person with Survival while travelling/adventuring, and there's a benefit to splurging for better accommodations.
I do have to house rule some abilities that affect exhaustion - generally if it removes one level, like the Ranger Tireless, it's fine, but if removes all levels I nerf it to removing one (can't think of a specific one, but it seems like I've seen it, possibly in homebrew or playtest material).
I find the idea of each level/stack inflicting a -1/-5' penalty appealing for its simplicity, but it might be so simple it gets forgotten. I'll have to chew on that one.
This video cured my exhaustion!
My exhaustion is also inspired by the slow spell.
At Lv3 Exhaustion however, I take away proficiency from everything; attacks, saving throws, skill checks and saving DC lol
You mentioned a possible homebrew rule of crits causing exhaustion. In my game we use a crit table, and a few of the results cause exhaustion. I believe 100 is extra damage dice, permanent scare and exhaustion
One of the other things I like about these systems is they better work around the Rogue "Reliable" ability
I really think the system as-is needs to be used *more* not less, like an exhaustion level for each time someone is knocked out to 0 HP. It gives consequence in combat, instead of it being whac-a-mole countered by Healing Word. The Saga Edition of the D20 Star Wars RPG did something similar.
O I love that rule too for sure! That’s an option I use as well
Guess I'm gonna talk about homebrewing exhaustion with my players :D
Hahaha just send em this vid and ill try and sell em on it lol! Glad you liked it!
@@TheDungeonCoach Too late, already did :)
Ruleset 2 is the ruleset used in 2024 rules minus anything extra. -2 to rolls per level, -5ft to speed per level.
Hey Coach, do you have any homebrew ideas for how to have diseases in your game, but also not have them be too impactful or not impactful enough?
Like how you talked about exhaustion here?
Either way, I love these new tables! They make exhaustion a whole lot better! -Thanks coach!
I. Freaking. Love. This!
Doubling damage is worse than halving max HP, because it essentially halves healing.
Ex: 50 HP halved to 25HP - hit 10 HP then healed 8 HP puts them at 23 HP (of 25).
50 HP - hit 20 (10 doubled) then healed for 8 (not doubled) puts them at 38 HP (of 50).
It feels like the lower HP is worse, but it's not.
Yeah exhaustion is kind of hard to keep track of but I'm not sure about some of these ones because from the looks of it you only get the worst of the effect ex. Half speed and speed becomes 5ft you only suffer the more serous of the two or with the -2 to your rolls vs -5 to rolls but this does give me an idea for my own chart
1.-2 to all rolls
2. Half speed
3.-2 to all rolls (-4 total)
4. No reaction
5. -2 to all rolls (-6 total)
6. Death
By themselves not a big deal but with everything stacking strains the player might switch #3 to -3 (-5 total) and #5 to something a bit harsher
I always thought that the exhaustion levels were gained. So, you gain first level exhaustion and all that comes with it, and then if you have second level exhaustion, you have the first levels effect WITH the second levels effects, and then so and so forth
Exhaustion levels are cumulative, at level 3 you get all of the effects of levels 1, 2, and 3.
I think he meant that some people feel the effects are just disjointed and way too sudden. Like, from full speed to half speed out of nowhere. From fully ok to full disadvantage on 1 level. But even if it is abrupt, sometimes it doesn't even feel like it matters, even more so for spellcasters.
@@yanderenejoyer The "system" proposed is really just GM adjudication. A great GM can look at the sitch and make a wise ruling. For this kind of "all roleplay no limits" type D&D, you don't really need any exhaustion or encumbrance rules. just a good GM. The rules were first set out for a GAME, not a weekly storytelling session. Once you acknowledge you are not really playing a game, but telling a story, you don't need to buy any rulebooks or PDFs. Tell yer story the way you want, pretending to use rules is only holding you back. OSR guys (the guys with all the limiting rules and crummy art work) are happy with rules that don't change every session because the GM watched some You Tube over the weekend.
@@vincejester7558 ...I feel you went into a really big rant there. But I doubt people just introduce this kind of thing mid game; I tend to test these ideas with one shots and implement whatever I feel is useful next campaing, most of the time with easier to remember implications.
I don't know why you went on about not using rules, some people just have a different vision of how a game should feel in order to be fun, and more realistic mechanics may be part of said visions.
Though, as I said, never heard of implementing new stuff like this out of the blue, or with any frequency.
@@yanderenejoyer Just some observations on how the game has really split into two completely different things, and how the "brand" is suffering from trying to be both the original concept and the communal storytelling entity 5e has become. The connection is so tenuous, and the new thing so aggressive, That I think it deserves to have its own name and brand to grow into what 5e wants to be, without trashing what it was on the way out. Maybe "Tasha's RPF of everything" or "Into the Witchlight and Beyond".
5 points of exhaustion cutting your speed to 0 makes sense to me. It’s the equivalent of the game it’s self telling you to go to sleep. Since after all 6 points of exhaustion means you die.
This guy always has the best shirts
Man the DC method is awesome as well
I homebrew where you go up to 7 stacks but 6 is heart attack from exhaustion, forcing a DC 20 con save or fall unconscious at 0 hp and make death saves at disadvantage.
I love level 4. It makes so much sense the way you broke it down.
You mean vulnerability to all damage? Yeah, it does make sense, but it is just more math at the table, when, in effect, it just results in the same thing that half hit point max does, but you only need to do that once, when taking on that degree of exhaustion, and never refer to it again. Vulnerability works, but why is it better when it is just more complex for pretty much the same result?
As always really enjoying your ideas. Would like to see your thoughts on accruing and removing exhaustion lvls. Personally been toying with an idea of casters being able to up-cast without a higher slot or cast above their level, but would add levels of exhaustion.
We have a wound system in our game. I allow casters to cast a spell even if they have no spell slots left. But it costs them a level of exhaustion and a wound for each level of the spell they cast.
I was thinking since you had that poll of something I'd like to see in a game which is a cumulative number that they have to roll against and if they roll over it they're fine, equal or under it they fail. For example every time they use an ability or fail a con check against an exhaustion effect, the number would increase by 1 and they'd roll a d20. If they roll the exhaustion number or lower, something like getting -1 to all rolls would happen then the exhaustion number would reset again and start at 0. Maybe constitution could come into play and would add to this d20 making it harder to fail.
Love this.... would you allow for more wards l ways to remove exhaustion?
Check out the exhaustion system in Grit and Glory. The first 3 levels of exhaustion are soft exhaustion and you can recover a level of soft exhaustion on a short rest. Levels 4 through 6 are heavy exhaustion and recovery is as per RAW.
I love that t-shirt. It’s not on your store. I checked.
You know it is kind of funny because the second table is actually something I was thinking of.
-2 to ALL rolls (incl. Damage dice) AND -5ft SPEED (to minimum of 5ft) PER Level of Exhaustion. Go Unconscious @ Level 6 and start making Death Saves.
Heaps of great mechanic suggestions here, I think I'll mix and match from them haha
Honestly, I'm surprised someone is talking about the exhaustion system at all. Exhaustion is rarely, if ever, used from what I'm aware of. I wish there were more ways to incorporate exhaustion in games.
Perhaps it's because I've been exhausted to the point of not being able to move, but I don't see a problem with exhaustion RAW. I think it's pretty accurate to how I've felt through various stages of exhaustion. I'm not sure everyone has physically worked themselves to the point of collapse (not heat stress).
All of that being said, your method 1 is actually pretty nice. I think a speed of 5 is too generous. Having been "stage 5 exhausted" I would suggest a full round action to move 5 feet rather than a speed of 5 because when I've been exhausted to that point, sure I could move, but it was literally a chore whether I'm crawling or walking. I wouldn't let someone move 5 feet and have other actions.
Vulnerability to all damage is mathematically the same as halving your max HP but it is not the same in the terms of D&D as there are multiple ways to negate this with spells, potions of resistance, barbarian abilities, and magic items. Also I have to check how that would interact with creature abilities that lower overall max HP, Im not entirely sure if the creature ability to lower max hp would stack with that vulnerability or not and yes that does make a huge difference as some of these require long rests or even spells to remove.
I've stayed up for 40+ hours, for work. I felt exactly like the RAW. Thankfully, i never got to the 6th level.
New favorite channel
The 5e rules for exhaustion is ok but your first method is perfect. I will be using this from now on and I would love to see your other ideas on exhaustion. I can only assume a spa is involved in removing levels of exhaustion?
Btw love the shirt.
I like ideas and just started following this guy but at the same time im getting the vibe he wants to homebrew rules A LOT. Dude just write a new system at that point.
Let's see some exhaustion HB rules!!!
Gimmie MOAR exhaustion tips pls.
Hahaha we’ll see how this does! These are my favorite videos to make too lol
@@TheDungeonCoach I'm here for the inventive homebrew & can't wait for the book! Never realized how much better exhaustion could be!
Like the vulnerability and no reaction part. Easier math.
I already use a +/- system. Flanking is +2atk, outnumbered is -2ac to those attacks, 2 advantage is +2, 3 is +4, same with disadvantage to minus.
great video! the camera quality seems… a little blurry lately?
I'm toying with the idea of corrupting magic in my game: make a DC 8 plus spell level cast (cantrips not rolled) vs Arcana/religion (etc for various casters). Failure mean simply nothing happens and spell slot is not spent. Critical failure: 1 level of exhaustion applied. I'm seriously going to use your 2nd Exhaustion homebrew for this.
Thank you for amazingng idea, i already update our homebrow :)
I signed up for the Kickstarter, looking forward to the book! I tried to sign up for the discord but got an “invalid address” error message
Thanks for that! Here is a personal link just for YOU :)
discord.gg/SdEWSGFv
Cool, I'm in, thanks!
Level 1 exhaustion is just being tired, which effects your ability to do a lot of things (skills). But in combat, adrenaline kicks in, & you’re fine.
I put an extra level of exhaustion just before death where the character is incapacitated (symbolizing them passing out from exhaustion)
Great ideas. Where do I get that hilarious shirt?
hahahah Amazon!
I like your higher levels of exhaustion. I still think someone is going to be able to move to make it to the bathroom when they are home sick with a bad case of food poisoning. Yes you're exhausted, but when you got to make it to the bathroom, you still make it 🙂.
Oh this is super interesting! Definitely want to play around with these ideas, thank you! THough I'm curious, is expanding it beyond 6 levels in a more gritty setting with lots of ways to get exhausted a good idea, or would that just make it less effective? I also like the idea of making a Constitution check to temporarily overcome exhaustion for a turn. Just that little narrative OOMF for the character to go beyond and push themselves, while also making Con more useful in game as a whole.
I want more exhaustion!
I decided to keep it real simple; Exhaustion works just like Energy Drain.