*Timestamps:* 0:00 - Introduction 0:08 - Topics of discussion 0:25 - Background of Dr. Lawrence Brown 1:10 - Background of Dr. Bart Ehrman 2:02 - Excerpt from the introduction of Dr. Brown's book 3:10 - Dr. Brown explains the introduction to his book 4:40 - Beliefs of Dr. Ehrman 6:22 - Dr. Brown explains Agnostic Believers 7:57 - Different Journeys of Dr. Brown and Dr. Ehrman 8:46 - How Dr. Brown came to Islam 10:50 - Dr. Ehrman gives his opinions on Dr. Brown's conversion story 11:38 - How Dr. Ehrman became an Agnostic 14:21 - Dr. Brown's views on Atheism & near death experiences 20:43 - Dr. Ehrman on explanation of near death experiences 24:34 - Dr. Brown's rebuttal to Dr. Ehrman's explanation and continued discussion on near death experiences 29:04 - Supernatural explanations of events & existence 31:32 - What caused the Big Bang ? 33:09 - Origin of life 36:06 - Fundamenal questions that aren't answered by Atheists 36:43 - Faith in Science vs Faith in God 42:08 - The Problem of Evil/Suffering (Dr. Brown's arguments) 46:23 - Dr. Ehrman's contention to Dr. Brown's arguments 49:19 - Dr. Brown's counter argument 51:59 - Dr. Ehrman's counter argument 52:41 - Discussion on People dying young 55:20 - Sufferings of people 56:43 - Reasons for suffering 58:37 - Accountability of children vs adults 59:43 - Deaths in natural disasters & suffering being an evidence of God 1:02:45 - God creating suffering 1:05:31 - Hardships making people Grateful 1:07:18 - Day of Judgement, Good Afterlife for Non-Muslims & Criteria for Judgement 1:10:57 - Fate of People who reject Prophet Muhammad ﷺ 1:12:51 - What does it mean to be a Muslim ? 1:15:23 - Islamic view of Purpose of Suffering 1:18:13 - Science vs Religion 1:19:59 - Explanation of the universe by Theists and Atheists 1:22:13 - God vs Science of Gaps 1:24:13 - Dr. Ehrman's Closing Statements 1:26:25 - Dr. Brown's Closing Statements 1:28:35 - Wrapping Up SUBHANALLAH ❤️🤍❤️ Very Interesting Discussion
Assalam alaikum to my brothers and sisters in faith. I would like to thank everybody for their comments. It is true I am not a debater, but then again this was not supposed to be a debate but a dialogue. But it turned out to be what it is. I think all of us tend to look back after an exchange like this and regret some things we said, wish we had said other things, and kick ourselves for the missed opportunities that passed us by in the heat of the moment. As for myself, I realize I could have risen more to the moment, but it is just not my nature to argue at that level. But maybe that will change with more experience :-). Please continue to support Paul for all of the fine work he is doing in this regard.
You showed a great deal patience. It would have been nice if the other side also did the same. But anyway It was amazing how you maintained being calm & collected. May Allah bless you for your efforts & works.
I feel you did well. In fact Dr Bart started the debate and in fact he kept interupting you and refused to play fair by refusing to answer some of your questions & then not giving you enough time to answer his questions.
I agree with br. Hasan. Even though proff. Bart lost his cool temporarily and raised his voice , you still kept your cool and did not let it affect you. Very very admirable Dr Brown. May Allah bless you with a long healthy and happy life. I do wish you did explain regard the optic nerve it would have been educational to all of us. He was telling we do not know how brain cells work. That is not true. We do know a lot and a lot still needs to be known. There is electrical conduction impulse transmission and the chemical neurotransmitters across the synopsis all together propagate motor action and emotional functions. A zillion different cells do zillion different functions individually and collectively as programmed. As far as I am concerned, there is no program without a programmer. The programmer behind our own development and function we call Allah/ GOD. We have signs of our programmer within us and in the CREATION of the fine tuned UNIVERSE. Willingly or unwillingly we all submit, not just us but even the PLANTS AND THE PLANETS . I learned a lot listening to you Dr Brown. Thanks.
Undoubtedly a big thanks to him for coming up with this channel and his idea of keeping things more academic and scholarly rather than shouting apologetics and other crazy stuffs. So we owe a lot to him.
The difference between humbled wisdom and arrogant ignorance is clearly evident in the session from the scratch till the end. May ALLAH reward you big brother Paul for being the constant seeker and helping hundreds along the way. love from Bangladesh.
@@PaulLHunziker to the extent of turning a matter of importance into a pathetic joke. I'm sorry for being a bit rude but I learned quite a bit about the new testament creation (corruption) from Dr. Bart, it's sad to see his intellect deteriorate. Dr. Lawrence as always, by ALLAH's grace, is the man who has been blessed with amazing perseverance and intellectual heights with clear insight. Arrogance won't be able to stand up to such knowledge which is in tune with natural inclination. Peace brother
@@BaldTom that's how fanatical and biased they can be when Bat wipes the floor with the so called doctor that kept contradicting himself and kept wobbling all through the conversation. When he couldn't measure up with Bart intellectually he started preaching. He's argument was so poor that I started doubting his academic credentials. He's so pathetic when it comes to proving his faith and the worst blunder he committed was to claim that the God of the Jews, Christians and Muslims is the same God.
Dr Laurence Brown conducted himself beautifully and in a most respected manner, throughout the whole stream MashaAllah. Thoroughly enjoyed watching this. Jzk, brother Paul for the entertaining stream ☺️
The biggest injustice of the man is when he transfers his own responsibility to God and blames God for it (instead of blaming himself). The starvation in this world is an issue that man should own. God has given enough resources at human's disposal to feed everyone. It is the man who hoards, steals, and does not share with others and then he blames God for their suffering.
@@lewis72 do you now what are the major causes of cancer? majority of the cancer cases are caused by man's mishandling (due to lack of proper understanding) of chemistry of the body and introducing enzymes that are harmful to human beings e.g water in plastic bottles, alcohol, junk food, over usage of soft drinks, smoking, exposure to radiation, over exposure to sun, pesticides, etc. So again God cannot be blamed for man''s acts whether they are done by man deliberately or due to sheer ignorance. As per the cancers in the children, if they are NOT induced by any other human actions then God can be held responsible for taking the life of a child. But first, you have to prove that these cancers in kids are not caused by man. Today, if you can't prove that the man caused the cancer in children then you can't blame God today as well. If past performances are to predict the future, given the history of what causes cancers, it could very well be that all cancers are caused by man. However, until you find that final answer, you cannot blame God. Having said the above, from Islamic stand point, God tests us with loss of life and possessions. Those who blame God, go astray and never find their destination (in this world or hereafter). Those who say Indeed, We Belong To God and Indeed we shall return to Him. This means this blessing (life or possession) was not hours to begin with. God gave it to us and he took it back. When we will return to Him, only then we will see/experience the full spectrum of his justice and reasoning behind the judgment. Until then we don't blame God.
The answers to end much suffering are in Islam. We have personal responsibility to establish collective justice in this world through our deen. Those that are God conscious will be in the pursuit of this, as they are aware of accountability. As a result a fairer more just society will be established. This is seen in the life of our prophet (pbuh). This is how the good will be separated from the evil. As Mr Erhman doesn’t believe in God then theses are all man made problems, so exactly what are the atheist doing to change the status quo? Today’s society without any sense of accountability to a creator where individuals do as they please, tend to think mainly about themselves, others suffering is not their responsibility, that’s why there’s a stark difference between first world and third world problems, distribution of wealth a major factor. The belief in an afterlife gives hope to the one suffering as the believers know that leaving this world means an end to suffering.
@@lewis72 discussion with an unreasonable person is not a good use of a dialogue. People who don't stand on firm ground always hop to the next issue before closing the first one.
Despite the fact that Dr. Bart Herman has so much knowledge in NT textual criticism, I found him to be an extremely superficial person. Dr. Brown, I applaud you for your patience, wisdom and well representation. May Allah forgive your sins and guide Dr. Herman before its too late. Special thanks to Paul Williams for bringing us those historic discussions.
I don’t think he’s superficial, I think he’s still grieving from whatever damage (suffering) it has caused him…. I have been in somewhat similar situations in life .. I was in the surgical ward seeing people dying and in miserable state and I was in a miserable state too .. One of the doctors came to me, who knew what I was going through and told me see around you what do you see ? Doesn’t that make you suffering insignificant, my response was my pain is in me , why am I suffering this way and there pain is in them why are they suffering ? To be honest I felt no matter how insignificant my issue was but it appeared very serious to me because I could feel it .. but later in life when the mental wound healed I realise I was just being a selfish ungrateful b*t-ch … but the point I am making the only way mental hurt can be undone is by talking to people , friends and family about it … the more he interact and engages with people who have gone through similar path more he will understand suffering and maybe he might be able to snap out of it … but all we can do is try , as he is a good genuine honest man and Allah guides whom he wills
I know this Doctor, he actually works in Madina, Saudi Arabia as an Eye Opthamologist (eye doctor). I've went to him many times for my eye check up. The Hospital he works in is called Magrabi
Just watching the interaction between these two demonstrates the difference between a person who is connected with God, and a person who isn't. Dr. Brown is a class act and exudes light. May God bless him and guide those who have yet to find the truth.
@@BloggingTheology the Islam views: Life is a challenge... Allah created human in adversities..the repeating verse in the quran is Allah will challenge man.. and Allah made the earth for man and man is the Stuart on earth..many evils are because of humans such as kids starving..this is something we would answer to, and the tsunami and the accidents....come on how many interventions does he want ?😀
Because he is truly knowing that if he faces Islam then he will be cornered to his final destination of believing and embracing it but he likes to keep neutral by hiding behind some emotional behave to stay away from that tough situation for him as a highly educated man ... It is a tactic that's all ...
@@Zenigma217 don't quite think it is arrogance. Dr. Ehrman is quite brilliant in his area of expertise and has a history with Christianity and was unable to fully feel confident and have control of his emotions. He is in new, uncharted waters and very interested in what is to come.
@@muslimboyilyas775 how’d you know he’s not giving his wealth to poor maybe he is … We can’t underestimate someone’s painful experience and we need to be charitable to his feelings , I think 🤔 the more he talks about it, it will be better for him and I believe there’s a genuine interest in him to seek the truth that’s why he has started talking about his opinions and feeling with other Muslims .. may Allah guide him
@@Zenigma217 I don’t think he’s arrogant he’s a genuine agnostic/atheist , he has quantified his position to suffering and emotions and most atheist/agnostics claim there’s no element of emotion involved in there decision to be faithless …
The contentions Dr. Ehrman raised about the problem of suffering are tough to answer. I have struggled with the issue of suffering at some point. The best answers that i could think of are: 👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼 1- Imagine someone having a nightmare. In the nightmare the person could be seeing all horrible things and feeling the worst type of pain. However, once that individual is awake, that pain he felt in the nightmare will be insignificant and he will continue his life as if he never had that nightmare. That's how I see the after life, a long eternal one that make all the previous pain endured in the normal life insignificant. As a matter of fact, there's a Hadith which goes with this reasoning. Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The most privileged people in the world among the people of Hellfire will come on the Day of Resurrection to be dipped in Hellfire, then it will be said: O son of Adam, did you see any good? Did you get any blessing? He will say: No, by Allah, my Lord! Then, the most miserable people in the world among the people of Paradise will come on the Day of Resurrection to be dipped in Paradise, then it will be said: O son of Adam, did you see any hardship? Did you have any distress? He will say: No, by Allah, my Lord! I did not once see hardship or distress.” Muslim 2807 2- The second reasoning I have used to explain the issue of pain is to imagine a 1 year baby taken by his mother to a doctor office to get a needle shot for a treatment. The baby might suffer a lot of emotional and physical pain while he's getting the jab. He might start crying and look in agony and pain at his mother. He might feel betrayed by his mother, and might not make sense of the pain his mother had put on him. However, only when the baby grows up, his knowledge will comprehend the good in the treatment he received as baby. Only then he will realize the love his mother had for him and why she made him endure that pain. That's how I think about our intellect as humans. We fall short of grasping the full picture because we can only see a pixel, whereas only God has the full picture.
You're totally right, and I would like to add that, when Allah grant someone money and wealth, it is actually a test for that person. When someone who is a billionaire per se, but he spends him money on gambling, cars, houses..etc then he would accountable for that at the Day of Judgement. There's a Hadith where the Prophet (PBUH) reportedly said: "The feet of a servant will not move on the Day of Resurrection until he is asked about his life and how he spent it, about his knowledge and how he did it, about his money from where he earned it and how he spent it, and about his body and how he used it" Couple of months ago, there is an article that said that Elon Musk could use just %2 of his net worth in order to solve world hunger. I think the burden are on people like this, not Allah (SWT). Allah granted them the money so they can help other people out who are in need of such help, and not spend it on unnecessary stuff. Of course that does not mean that they should spend all of their money, but in the case of someone like Elon Musk, I think he is far more capable of solving issues like world hunger and it would not harm his wealth one bit.
@@Cassim125 clearly you cant present an intellectual response because you never knew me or knew what I have considered when it comes to the problem of suffering. Is a condescending response all you’ve got?
@@hmansour89 what makes you think discussions on the poe are ever intellectual. Here is a quote from safaruk chowdhury a fellow mus who's written a book on the poe. I admire this honesty which most ppl avoid. He says 1. Moral insensitivity: theodicies do not take suffering seriously because they make an equivalence between all types of evils. Horrendous evils on a mass scale (like genocide) and a personal tribulation (like an accident), for example, are explained in exactly the same way by appeal to some greater good, which abandons any distinction in degree, quantity, and severity of an evil like suffering. 2. Moral blindness: theodicies often are formulated in such a way as to occlude the radically cruel and merciless nature of evil-even uncon scionable evil. 3. Licenses evil: theodicies license evil because by explaining them away, justifying them, or ameliorating them removes any or at least weakens moral responsiveness. The status quo therefore remains unchanged and so evil is allowed to persist in existence and process. 4. Impersonal: theodicies involve a detached logical approach when making moral assessments and calculations. The analysis of evil within theodicies is expressed in a formal manner, removed from a subjective appreciation or engagement of its severity and impact. 5.Dysfunctionality: theodicies do not understand how morality works because the logic governing the explanatory basis for evil reduces to excessive utilitarian considerations like outweighing factors rather than the victims.
I appreciate hearing Dr Brown after a long time. I first came across his story 5 or so years ago on a very old computer with an appalingly slow connection. i was amazed at his level of imaan and the the test he faced after reversion. A very short while later as my world went topsy turvy later i took comfort in his story.it was like Allah was showing me something alhumdulillah
As a Maths student I find the response "There's no scientific evidence for God" no more ridiculous than saying "There's no scientific evidence for numbers", the paradigm these atheists come from is deeply flawed.
I would genuinely like to know how you as a maths student would approach to supernatural things more precisely a God. What method would you choose or what's your approach in this topic ? Thank you 😊
@@SohailAh46 Sure, well the evidence is glaring I'm going to use the argument from the Quran. A verse im sure you're familiar with and it says "were they created *by* nothing?" notice how it doesn't say "were they created *from* nothing?" That is because this higher being or entity did infact create us *from* nothing. Why do I bring this up? It is because we know that the universe had a beginning and so what was before it... nothing? So the question we must ask is *how* does something come from nothing, seriously how can something come from nothing and the argument in the verse is put perfectly where they created *by* nothing, if the universe came from nothing (which ironically we & atheist share a belief in that) than it *must* absolutely must come by Something. Nothing cannot come *from* nothing *by* nothing. *(**52:35**) Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?* And then ontop of all that, we have intelligent design in this universe undoubtedly so it's blatantly obvious to me that the one who created everything is completely aware of us and clearly designed us and the world for us, and even ontop of all that, you have the Quran the literal word of God which has 0 contradictions even when every single "holy book" in existence does and its perfectly preserved even though every single "holy book" isn't and the scientific, historic miracles and prophecies that there is no way he could've known about.
I’m Muslim because after thoroughly studying Islam and religion I’ve concluded that every claim allegedly by our Creator is the most believable thing to go on! 🤷🏻✌️☝️
@@IosifStalin2 Islam is theocentric. And theology is no different. Truth claims from a God can be deduced logically as opposed to a universe of random combustion in which case there is only an insistence on unliving things. The true atheist is a nihilist and therefore an enemy to logic. Unless of course you think of hard determinism as a crux but that too would qualify a breach of ethics, morality, humanity, artistic pursuits, the first cause, impossibility to know exact configuration of everything, quantum mechanics, free will, and so on. The clutches with which you are balancing ignore the fundamental inevitability of creation to return to it's beginning and be judged
Dr Laurence Brown has (Masha’Allah) done a lot of great work. I have benefited from both his books and talks. In my honest and personal opinion, Paul should have brought in Hamza Tzortis for this one. This was a philosophical debate, in which you need a philosopher of religion like Hamza. Dr Brown is a doctor and has a background in comparative religion. As a muslim I don’t think that many of his answers were convincing (not just for Dr. Ehrman, but I would suspect for a lot of other atheists, agnostics and others) If the theme of the talk was about the Bible and how the Bible can lead to the Quran (or something like that) Dr. Brown would have been great. But philosophical debates is somewhat outside of his field. For example he should have mention the fitrah as ‘a proof’ we as Muslims believe in. We have to remember, there are a lot of people watching these videos and we must bring people who can properly representation the Islamic position, lest we make our view look weak. All in all he did a decent job and may Allah reward him immensely. As I mentioned, he has done a lot of great work.
As i see it suffering is an inevitable thing that all humans will face for as long as they live on this Earth.We only differ in our degree of suffering but more important than that is how we cope with suffering .We tend to blame God whenever we suffer but we dont thank God for all the gifts He has given us eg the gift of sight, hearing etc .So i think we are doing injustice to ourselves when we blame God for every misery we meet in life and we are not going to gain anything by blaming God for our misfortunes.There is only one way out i.e .to be thankful to God for whatever misfortune strikes us and also find ways and pray to God to deliver us from our suffering .We have a whole lifetime to come to terms with God,our Creator .God has manifested His existence through creation itself and through His prophets.To find God we dont have to ask questions which even science cannot give.For example we don't need to spend our lifetime finding out how the universe was created ,we only need to accept that God,the Creator created the universe.God doesn't need us to solve science puzzles to believe in His existence.
@@NGabriel88 *"As a muslim I don’t think that many of his answers were convincing (not just for Dr. Ehrman, but I would suspect for a lot of other atheists, agnostics and others)"* You can't really defend the indefensible. It's virtually impossible to argue that he abrahamitic gods are just given the suffering in this world AND how we're born into different environments from which we have very different chances to become believers of the respective religions even though we're all exposed to them.
At times this discussion was somewhat awkward, but I loved how almost everyone kept their composer and professionalism despite the disagreements. On the subject of suffering, I have had several students argue about the existence of a merciful God who allows suffering to happen. Reward and accountability is what I always tell them. For someone who is handicapped, disfigured, starving, poor, cold, suffering...etc, it is their burden to be patient, but it is also a greater responsibility on us as humans, governments, and communities to alleviate and protect them. The burden not only falls on those suffering, but on those who are witness.
I understand Bart's point of view and we should recognize his deep empathy for human beings and their sufferings. The issue is that most of these sufferings are caused by other human beings who, for their own lust for power and greed, loot, plunder, murder, and rape, and that's where we are tested on how we stop those aggressors from causing those sufferings upon humans and other fellow creatures.
Dr. Brown is not approaching the topic of this discussion in a way taught by the Qur'an. He's been cornered and now has no idea on how to take the discussion forward.
Bart's point is useless since he can't even prove that evil exists. To a human, killing an innocent Jew is good, to another, it's bad. So, how does he prove that what he thinks is evil, is objectively evil?
I agree, it seems like Dr. Brown was cornered in this passionate discussion/debate. Allah says: *“Do not spread corruption on the land after it has been set in order.”* - (Qur’an 7:56) No one was suffering when Allah placed the first humans on the earth. Humans are the cause of their own suffering, but they’ve decided to blame their own mess on God. *“Man is a witness against himself, despite all the excuses he may put forward.”* - (Qur’an 74:14 - 15) The poverty, bloodshed, and starvation that he complains about are the result of greed, selfishness, arrogance, etc. If people didn’t act in this way and they acted in accordance to God’s command, this suffering wouldn’t exist. “Will you place someone who will spread corruption and shed blood in there while we glorify Your praises?” Allah responded (to the angels), *“I know what you do not know.”* - (Qur’an 2:30) There seems to be a false presupposition that it is impossible for Allah to be All-Good if He is allowing this corruption to continue. But Allah is All-Wise, just because you can’t understand the Wisdom behind it doesn’t mean you reject Him. You have to be extremely arrogant to deny Allah on this basis.
Well said, u put what i couldn't express (cuz of my bad English) into words! Most of suffering caused by humans themselves... And this verse 1:27:38 that Dr Brown read summarize things .
You hit the nail on the head @Silence in Solitude. In the end faith does not come from knowledge, but from God's mercy, which He grants without limit to those who seek to purify themselves.
Absolutely, 100% agree. Jeffery Lang's explanation of this topic immediately comes to mind. Paul, I am not sure if you have access to Jeffery, but I was thinking, this the entire time. I don't know him personally and not sure if he would even consider such a debate atmosphere, but I believe he has truly done a groundbreaking job of deeply answering this question. A question that he himself deeply wrestled with. The atheist argument that Bart presented, is one sided and you can see it is fueled with so much emotion that it never allows the possibility to acknowledge the opposite also exists in the world. What the angels reveal and what they conceal. No disrespect to Dr. Brown, but he was likely not expecting the approach Bart used to repeatdly push the conversation into a chaotic one rather than a calm, rational and reasoned one. As many of us know, the answers are there but it takes time to ponder, and both the heart and the mind to be willing to consider a complete idea enough to realize that it's our paradigms that prevent us from seeing the picture from a viewpoint that transforms what yet first glance looks like a massive problem into a necessary component of a masterfully designed system.
Jazak Allah Khayran Brother Paul for this great Show . Divine decree is a major belief in Islam & Although the suffering of people is hard for us humans to explain as we are limited in knowledge , We have to accept it , show patience & have complete faith in Allah SWT plan. Jazak Allah khayran Dr Brown as well for your patience & humility ...."Who, when disaster strikes them , say :Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to him we will return .Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy.And it is those who are rightly guided " Holy Quran (2 :156-157)
As a muslim i didn’t think Dr. Brown gave satisfactory answers. I’ve heard better arguments and answers regarding suffering and heaven and hell. But respect to Dr. Brown for doing his best.
Yh I've heard answers better answers too and u think Bart should ask a muhammad hijab or subhoor Ahmed, hamza yusuf, shiekh uthman and etc. But Dr brown tried and respect for that
Bart Erhman has been on Islamic channels recently and discussing Islam even though his expertise is Christianity - this proves that Islam is way more interesting phenomena. Even Jordan Peterson had discussion with Mohammed Hijab - all these intellectuals are talking about Islam. Major thanks to Paul Williams and other Dawah people for their hard-work. 😍😍🥰
Scholars have been studying Christianity and Christian manuscripts for nearly 2000 years. So I guess this means that Christianity is way more interesting. See how silly that logic sounds?
@@Ask-Isa That is bogus - they are from Christian background and some are still Christians. Have you seen Bart Erhman discuss Hinduism? Or Jordan Peterson discuss Hindu religions? Also - no Christian manuscripts for 200 years after Jesus.
@@summertea4382 once again, you cannot even begin to compare the scholarly level that Christian manuscripts have endured to Islamic. Even Muslim scholars today, including ones who have been interviewed on blogging theology have openly admitted this.
@@Ask-Isa Christianity is 600 years older than Islam - so of course it would have more manuscripts because there was 600 years. However they also have way more problems to contend because of this.
He wasn't allowed to make a point and yes he is a scientist you need a philosopher to argue against these claims who knows about the philosophy of science
He made very good points but he didn't add the shades of gray or nuance or connect certain points like saying life is a test of sincerity, janna is an invitation, ppls sufferring can also be a test for us, reason and empathy both stem from truth, one in the heart and the other in the brain and so forth, he could of went into how the islamic way deals with theae points. There is a good hadith Allah is merciful to those who are Merciful to others.
That only tells us which team you're supporting. not which side is more reasonable. remember that when you play the judge without specifying the supposed flaws in the arguments presented. so far one side is evoking unfalsifiable supernatural entities for that which they found to be complicated and the other is skeptical of such supernatural assumptions. specially when cross cultural examination reveal completely different mythical stories that attempts to explain the same thing. which drives the chances for the particular myth you fancy to be true to near zero. I would say Dr Bart was reasonable and objective while Dr Lawrence was appealing to subjective and emotional arguments. still respect for both for the civil discussion.
@@m.deadly5952 i disagree. Dr bart was emotional and ultimately his reasons for not believing in God are also emotional. But most important he did not allow the other party to speak but kept on interupting over and over again and even raised his voice..it seems more like classic bully behaviour and not the calm and rational way i expected from dr bart in fact he behaved very agressively not in a rational way that i have seen him in the past.
@@lilyrosesoul0077 *"ultimately his reasons for not believing in God are also emotional"* It's a bit funny how muslims approach this: We unbelievers point out that your god is horribly evil, and you basically say "he's good by his own definition and that's what counts, and since there's no other objective yardstick, you're purely emotional when you say you don't like suffering, sadistic "tests", eternal torture and our god's extreme narcissism. All of these attributes of god are perfectly justified according to god". So any moral judgement by people who are atheist is automatically demoted to "being emotional". It would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious that you're morally stunted by your religion. *"it seems more like classic bully behaviour and not the calm and rational way i expected from dr bart"* I think it's great he wouldn't let Brown just fill the time with preaching and bad rationalizations. There was no bullying here, it's not like Dr Ehrman was anything like e.g. Muhammad Hijab.
Salaam alaikum brother Paul, Masha-Allah what an interview this is and what a surprise!! We've been waiting for Dr Bart Erhman for a long time, as for Dr Lawrence brown has been in your podcast before and is always welcome. May Allah preserve Dr Lawrence brown and brother Paul and guide Dr Erhman to the truth of Islam, Allahumma Ameen. Subhaana-Allah I'm so amazed at the collective patience Dr Brown showed as I'm watching the talk, it's amazing he didn't lose his cool. I'm completely taken by surprise as to why Dr Bart Erhman couldn't hold his cool at all. Dr Bart Erhman wanted to drag brother Paul with him, I'm sure brother Paul didn't want nothing to do with that. I'm sure brother Paul will disagree with much of what Dr Bart Erhman said and I'm sure he will agree with everything Dr Brown said. I believe the verses of the Qur'an Dr Brown read sums everything else!!
Listening to an atheist arguments is such a humbling experience...you just want to pray all the time thanking God for not being one of them, asking Him to never let you go astray.
Dr Bart Ehrman sounds like he's hurting inside to me. We can only pray for God to guide him. The fact that he's willing to participate in discussions like these is enough proof for me that he's trying and God's guiding him.
Christianity can ruin n hurt people. Most atheist are former Christians that got hurt when they found out they are in a false religion n now they think everything is fake.
@@jesan733 you don't have to be a professional to see someone in distress. Christianity really hurt Bart that he won't even study other religions because he thinks if he gets attached to another the same thing might happen. He did say many times he was a devout Christian. Most atheists are former Christians who did some study on their own n saw how deceiving the church is. Its pure evil, they brain wash people n teach them falsehood. The dark ages were horrible n held Europe back because they allowed only priests to read the bible n they burned any nontrinatrian after the councils. That was a huge mistake. The bigger mistake was glueing a horrible translated tanahk to their false new testament. Any intellect that pointed out the obvious evidence n falsehood n contradiction was charged with heresy. The funny part is that they were never able to explain the trinity in 1 official universal n easy way. Especially when the 1st commandment is very clear n has no secret hidden interpretation.
@madd, that was my thought too. Bart saids it's because there's suffering in the world and not because of the errors in the Bible but I don't know I believe that. When you spend your whole life completely believing something is true without a doubt and finding out that's it's not true. It really hurts. You start question everything. I love Bart and have listened to him for many years . I hope he finds truth and happiness.
Nice discussion. Regarding tsunami that mentioned many times by Dr Ehrmann. Many muslims could be died as shahid/syuhada. I am Indonesian and according to some ustadz/ islamic scholars in indonesia, many died during sujud, as it seems when the tsunami happened, they were doing dhuha prayer (tsunami happened in the morning time). There are always many hikmah behind everything, human mind cannot reach it. After listening and watching many discussions like this...it seems the patience to listen is one of the most needed. And many arrogant people have lack of patient to listen. I hope we will still be guided in the way of Allah/istiqomah till soul separate from our bodies. Thank you bro Paul👍🙏😊
Allah taala says in Quran "I know, you know not." part of surah 2 verse 30. Also from surah 18 where al Khidir was given guidance from God to do things that Prophet Moses knows not, only to explain that we will never be able to have patience over the things we know not, which is Allah taala's wisdom. May Allah taala grant us patience over the things we know and the things we know not. In the end, there are many things unknowable, which is left "ghaib" to us. May Allah taala keep us steadfast on the deen until the end.
Quite shocking to know that Erhman would've still stayed a Christian even though he knew that the Bible contained contradictions and mistakes. And also he only started being an Atheist due to the problem of evil and suffering is even more mind boggling and makes me think that he's more of an emotional person than a logical and rational one.
I know many Christians who agree that their Scripture is corrupted and contains mistakes. Or that the Trinity doesn't make sense and was a later invention. Yet, they are still Christians 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
They have shortcut to salvation … so everything else in there religion is secondary… imagine someone comes to you and tells you mate you can have a penthouse for free when you retire but all you have to do is believe my son died for your sins
I don’t believe so Bart became agnostic because of his doubts about his religion but it wouldn’t sound smart to say my religion is false therefore all religions are false so he adopted the idea i am agnostic because evil exists which sound worse because it’s emotional argument
I liked Dr. Jeffrey Lang's take on the suffering issue. He delivered two lectures on two consecutive evenings I guess at a certain university whose name eludes my mind at the moment, it was quiet helpful. you can find it here on youtube with a single search.
Thank you so much for this Paul.The ever humble Dr Brown was the star in this talk even though it wasn't a debate.May Allah SWT bless you Dr Brown immensely for clarifying faith so succinctly.
Dr Laurence Brown has (Masha’Allah) done a lot of great work. I have benefited from both his books and talks. In my honest and personal opinion, Paul should have brought in Hamza Tzortis for this one. This was a philosophical debate, in which you need a philosopher of religion like Hamza. Dr Brown is a doctor and has a background in comparative religion. As a muslim I don’t think that many of his answers were convincing (not just for Dr. Ehrman, but I would suspect for a lot of other atheists, agnostics and others) If the theme of the talk was about the Bible and how the Bible can lead to the Quran (or something like that) Dr. Brown would have been great. But philosophical debates is somewhat outside of his field. For example he should have mention the fitrah as ‘a proof’ we as Muslims believe in. We have to remember, there are a lot of people watching these videos and we must bring people who can properly representation the Islamic position, lest we make our view look weak. All in all he did a decent job and may Allah reward him immensely. As I mentioned, he has done a lot of great work.
I agree with your point. I doubt dr bart will be back on this yt channel though. He seems very satisfied with himself that God does not exist and humans can never know anything about God. Its also clear that dr bart was looking for a debate not a dialouge! Lol!
@@charlievaughan1308 I think from the perspective of Hamza being well versed and equipped in the philosophical side of things and as such would have presented more robust points. I believe Dr Brown was simply on this for a jovial dialogue but Dr Ermen was there for a debate and fight. That may possibly be down to a miscommunication about the intent of the talk by Dear Brother Paul.
Paul needs to bring on a Philosopher like Suboor Ahmad. He would have left Dr Bart Ehrman scratching his head. If there ever happens a philosophical debate bring on Subbor Ahmad.
I love how for Dr. Ehrman it's OK not to have the answers to the three most important questions of all time because well... science will figure it out in the long run (which is pure blind fate and science of the gaps) but the theist must have an answer for why there is suffering (which is a secondary issue might I add) in order for their claim to be true
100% he kept on saying God of the gaps yet he himself spilt the beans of science of the gaps lol The God of gaps argument is ridiculous...even though there is a natural mechanism it does not really answer for or against the existence of God
Ehrman did not say that science will for sure figure it out. He said that each day science figures out more and more stuff, and so using that empirical trend he says that what happened before singularity will be also probably answered by science in the long term. Contradictory to this we don’t know more and more about Islam each day, as it’s the same as it was 1400 years ago, so it’s reasonable to assume that Islam or any other faith which is set in stone will not answer what happened before singularity. He trust the science which says it doesn’t know now, rather than religion which says it knows because of “belief” that what is written in their scripture is true. Erhman is a skeptic who wants evidence before accepting and is humble enough to acknowledge that he doesn’t know, while Brown is a believer without proof because that is what faith is after all, belief in something without proof.
@@Joseph-cf2wd therefore Ehrman is taking on the science of the gaps argument. Humans can never fully understand what happened before the singularity however in any model a necessary being is necessary why because as we know everything within this universe is finite and you cannot have a series or chain of finite...the infinite regression problem The whole point of Islam is to ponder about this life...did you come from nothing or did you create yourself...why are we here etx
@@Joseph-cf2wd what is the proof of axioms of science? that's where Ehrman and many others are mistaken about their own fate. They reject all forms of knowledge that does not come from the scientific method (ie. Testimony, logic and philosophy) while simultaneously holding the science and scientific method above all else forgetting that scientific method itself heavily relies on logic and philosophy. What I'm trying to say is that we all have fate to some extent, you might want to reject that because you don't like the word "fate" but you liking a word or don't liking it doesn't change it's definition.
@@Joseph-cf2wd secondly be pointing out the science of the gaps saying science will one day give us answers is the clear definition of faith 🤣🤣🤣🤣 So we all have faith whether theists or follow scientism
Dr. Brown is an epitome of wisdom, sobriety, reasoning, and giving examples to make things very illuminating - May Allah SWT rewards him for representing Islamic position in a profound manner. Even Dr. Bart claimed his agnostic view it seems he is more on the atheistic camp, arguing without any real reasoning that can make his case and stubbornly repeating without even respecting Dr. Brown’s explanation - his preconceived knowledge on Christianity failed him to fathom the concept of sufferings! Thanks, Pual for hosting this discussion. I regularly follow your channel and try to learn from the knowledge you share
One point that was missed and could have helped is that the pain and suffering is happening from our own greed. We are causing this and we are witnesses of this as a test of how to fix this. This is a blessing in disguise, this is an opportunity for us to show compassion and do the work to feed them. This is the test for the fortunate that can feed themselves. Every test for mankind is laid out in front of us. Sometimes we find cures when we have diseases. A prosthetic leg is only created when one has to lose it. Allah disguises the blessing in the tragedy. I wish Dr. Brown approached it in this manner.
Thank you for allowing this exchange Br Paul. What's ironic for me is that at first glance, it seemed as if the Dr Brown was giving emotional reasons for why he left atheism for Islam, but later on during the debate, it sounded more as if it was Dr Ehrman who actually became atheist for emotional reasons, giving the fact that, as he himself pointed out, the problem of suffering was what led him to believe there is no God, and that is a self defeating position! Awareness and recognition of concepts such as suffering and injustice requires believing in objective justice and goodness and morality to judge with. Anyway, as expected of Br Paul, he always brings in guest of high caliber, and this channel is worth every subscription to it. Great work!
I don't mean to offend bart but I find it somewhat amusing that the thing that got him to leave Christianity were not the rational excuses such as the blatant contradictions, historic & scientific mistakes but rather it was an irrational and emotional one, the *"Problem of evil"* .
Many thanks Mr. Paul for a huge effort for bringing such discussion to your platform. Am sure, many brothers from known online streams may be so ready to comment or have their view shared about it. Once again, Blogging Theology has done great service for knowledge seekers.
Subahanallah this was an enticing discussion. Thank you Paul for putting this together. We can learn from an agnostic perspective before we can begin to challenge their ‘belief’. May Allah reward Dr Brown for his efforts and Paul for initiating this.
B. Ehrman reacts quite emotionally for someone who does not believe in hell. Mankind should be blamed for suffering and hunger. How blind can one be not to realize that.
@@Zenigma217 actually what you said summarized Dr. Ehrman. You see, arrogance was the downfall of Satan(Quran 2:34). If you look closely you can find that same arrogance is in every educated atheist argument. What they know of knowledge is like a drop of water in a sea compared to the knowledge of the physical universe, let alone the unseen world. Yet again that blinds them and makes them proud and boastful. Most of them you will find not to have the slightest doubt they could be wrong and they will argue to prove that is the case. To them, what they know out weights above all, and that turned them into Party of Satan AKA the arrogant ones. And Allah does not guide the arrogant and the insincere. “Thus does Allah set a seal over the heart of every proud, haughty one” (Quran 40:35).
Asa Dr Brown was not expecting a debate, but a dialogue , Dr Bart came up with emotional debating tactics, Dr Brown respectfully tried to explain we don’t have an answer for everything which Dr Bart agreed with when it suited him, but not on human suffering . It is a matter of faith , but it shows at the end the man with faith is not as agitated as the man without.
Regardless that I disagree with dr. Ehrman in fundamental matters, he is really excellent in articulating his ideas. I really enjoy listening to him speaking.
Love and respect both scholars - doctors in their own fields. Dear Paul, one simple message for Dr Ehrman if you can get it to him from a layman: the problem of evil teaches us a few things: 1. Do we recognise and feel the pain and suffering of another human or animal so it hurts us (as it clearly does hurt Dr Erhman)? Teaches us Empathy and tests our capacity for feeling for others 2. Are you then thankful for what you and your dear loved ones have for you are not yourselves in that state? Gratitude. 3. What do you do about this suffering? How do you react? Get angry or get helpful? Charity and endeavour. Ultimately, the simple thing that this life is temporary - do you not realise that the suffering of others temporarily could easily be flipped into everlasting (eternal) joy and bliss by a merciful God? This world is temporary - a fact observable as people like our ancestors are all dead. Their misery and their bliss ended. So problem of evil - only a drop in the ocean and test for all. Fail it or pass it - choice is ours.
Salams. The problem with this which Bart did address during his talk was that that majority of people in the world are unbelievers. So if a lot of them are suffering whilst on Earth, it does not mean that their suffering will end at death or be in bliss afterwards, because they will suffer even more in hellfire because of their unbelief. Hence, the last two points about eternal bliss are incorrect.
Fancy platitudes is all you can give but at the end of the day only the sufferer knows what suffering is like. So who are you to talk so arrogantly with cheap platitudes ?
Another point I would like to add: Allah taala says in Quran "I know, you know not." part of surah 2 verse 30. Also from surah 18 where al Khidir was given guidance from God to do things that Prophet Moses knows not, only to explain that we will never be able to have patience over the things we know not, which is Allah taala's wisdom. May Allah taala grant us patience over the things we know and the things we know not. In the end, there are many things unknowable, which is left "ghaib" to us. May Allah taala keep us steadfast on the deen until the end.
He also conflates knowledge with scientific knowledge. This implies that without the scientific method, we would know nothing. Not a very rational man.
This is a person who studies history for a living and here you are you people with a degree at McDonalds university thinking you can challenge himm. Lol.
I'm so impressed how dr. Brown tries to deal with dr. Ehrman. How he so patient eventhough dr. Ehrman continually denial every arguement that he makes. This one of the proof how muslim behave and spread the massage through wisdom and right manner, they don't easily got angry/emotional and desperate. He is good example how muslim should behave. I very proud for him, my ALLAH guide him always, ameen.. 🙏🙏
Paul please moderate debates in future. Give them a stop clock for time to respond WITHOUT interruptions. Rule has to be NO INTERRUPTIONS. Under the circumstances Dr Brown dealt with this very well.
our creator granted us intellect to read his divine words , which ordered all humanity towards charities. if every person does its duty by contributing , then there won't be any starvation at all.
Wow Paul, I cannot believe the quality of your guest. Great job and eagerly await for more. Wishing you a fantastic new year. Light , love and blessings.🇬🇧🇲🇺💐
On the topic of suffering, I've never actually heard anyone use the following counter-argument, even though to me it appears as extremely logical and impossible to deny. So let's take a hypothetical argument between two people. Person 1: How can God be All-Good is there is so and so in the world? Person 2: So you expect perfect equity in this life? Person 1: Not perfect equity, but the easing of sufferings, no senseless deaths, no wars, no famine, no plagues, etc. Person 2: Even if all that were to be satisfied, the person acclimated to that hypothetical society would find injustice in smaller things, such as differences in height, differences in ability (intellectual/physical), differences in how much a person earns, differences in the places in which people are born and how those peoples differ in terms of development, and so on. Person 1: But at least there would be no suffering. Person 2: For a human it would be good enough, but God is Perfect, and imperfection cannot be in His creation. A life where there is no post-judgement must be a perfectly equitable life, as otherwise why would an All-Good, All-Perfect God create people who lives would be, even in the most minute way, inequitable. Indeed the only solution for a perfect being to create true equity in this life is to remove free-will, and create us as perfect equals, like blades of grass. Person 1: But that's clearly not how the world is now, humans are different, we aren't the same, the world is fundamentally unequitable. So how can God be All-Good. Person 2: I gave the prior argument as a preface to this one. The All-Good nature of God can be understood more easily through his attribute of being the Most-Just. God is Perfectly Omniscient, you can view this Omniscience as the following: God sees every quark or lesser, in the Universe, at it's exact location, down to the Planck length, or lesser, at every Planck time, or lesser, for all time, throughout all time. He knows everything there is to know, and more. As such, he has absolute knowledge, and is the absolute reference for everything. This allows Him to deal Absolute Justice. God is All-Good because He will offset the inequity of this world perfectly in the world to come. His will not deliver injustice to a person lesser than the weight of an atom. He knows everything, and can quantify everything. Any injustice you suffered here will be accounted for by Him. If you were born poor, born disabled, born only to be killed in war, famine, disease, cancer, murder, He will account for that, and deal with you with Perfect Justice. It is the only way to achieve true equity. What God gives to you is better than what you ask for, you ask for a lack of suffering in this world, but that cannot be possible while free-will exists. God gives you both free-will and perfect equity, there is no injustice, and God remains All-Good. And that is why amongst the 6 major beliefs of a Muslim, one of them is the Belief in the Day of Judgement.
I heard Hamza Yusuf talking about human suffering and connecting it to a concept of free will which is given to us in this world. This is all packed in free will and children are dying from hunger because someone in that country caused it. If you expect for God to intervene every time someone does evil in this world then there would not be free will...
@@nedzadi Exactly, this whole is God good argument makes no sense when considering true equity would literally defeat the point of free will. Also people are so delusional when it comes to what part they play in "inequity" and "suffering". I'll give three examples. 1) People talk about famine, of starvation. And yet I live on a planet in which there are simultaneous epidemics of obesity and starvation, explain that one to me. God gave us a bountiful Earth with the resources to feed all of its people well, just because people choose to accumulate and hoard food for the powerful and the wealthy isn't an indication of God's injustice, it's an indication of the corruption of man. What do these people want God to do? Smite a person every time they are being greedy? What would the point of belief be then? 2) Over half of sexual assaults, rapes, domestic violence cases and assault occur under the influence of alcohol. You know an easy way to instantly cut these crimes in half? Ban alcohol. Oh but noooooo, all these people complaining about the suffering in the world will then start complaining about their freedoms. But what would they do without alcohol, how would they drown out their sorrows, or be confident enough to talk to a person (which is something a normal person should be able to do sober anyways). 3) It is widely noted through various studies that an increasing no. of sexual partners prior to marriage corresponds directly to significantly increased risks of divorce and lower rates of perceived marital happiness. Both of these trends are linear with respect to the no. of partners, with virgins enjoying both the most stable marriages, and highest perceived marital happiness. The consequences of divorce are obvious, broken families, unstable lives, children with no role models, depression, anxiety, a societal structure that is broken at it's root. And yet everyone LOOOOOOOVVVVEEES to promote fornication, it's a harmless activity they say, its recreational, it's a pleasurable activity, what's so wrong with it? And they look at us and call us backwards. And yet God has forbidden fornication, not because He doesn't want us to feel pleasure, but because He doesn't want us to be hurt, His way is the Best way. God has laid out a straight path, a path which minimizes pain and suffering if taken up by a society. Whether they choose to do so is their choice, and they can choose not to do so at their own peril. If I tell an rational adult not to put a blowtorch in his mouth and he does so anyways, who exactly is at fault here? It's clear to see that people don't really care about justice, they just care about pleasure, and convenience.
@rolling, if Person 2 was a Christian, they may say that, but, a Muslim would NEVER impute injustice to Allah. Allah is just, and would NEVER create an imperfect being and expect perfection from them.
@@j2shoes288 Allah's work is perfect. But let's get this clear, Allah's work is Perfect in the sense that He creates exactly as He wants to, with no deviation from what He wants. However, none of Allah's creations are perfection itself. Only Allah is the Perfect being. We are only perfect in that we are created perfectly as we are meant to be created. Also, what are you even arguing about, Quote what I said, either that or read it again. And if you didn't get it, read it again.
Theres a video on youtube by Yasir Qadhi on the problem of evil and suffering, its probably the BEST answer regarding this issue. He explains it beautifully. I HIGHLY encourage every muslim and non-muslim to watch it.
Brother Paul thank you very extremely much for what you do for Islam, thank you Dr. Lawrence brown for staying calm and answering in a very intelligent manner, I wish Brother Paul had moderated more assertively when Dr Ehrman started interrupting, we're Muslims and al 7mdolilah most of us are strong enough in our faith to listen attentively to opposing opinions however I don't think anyone appreciates being constantly interrupted... This was supposed to be a dialogue not a debate and Dr. Ehrman turned it into a debate so I wish you'd actually set times for comments without interruptions for both parties.... I don't mean to be negative I simply wish that we actually got to enjoy the dialogue properly without interruptions..
How would Dr Bart Ehrman view the Indian Ocean tsunami? In the tsunami millions of people died. As humanbeings we feel sad when these things happen. I myself experienced tsunami and i worked in the recovery work. In my country that day is recognised as the "Day of unity". Why? It brought unity among people as they were helping to find those who survived and helping those that were displaced. So many trees died due to salt intrusion, but as it recovered we found new crops started growing. In my father's home island, people could not grow mangoes even when they tried before. But after tsunami mango became one oft the most easily grown tree. It is likely some changes happened to soil composition and it grew with some seeds that came from another country with tsunami waves. Few trees grew, and with it's seed over the years many trees grew. I don't know what else to say except SubhanAllah (Glory be to God). What do we want to achieve in this world? It is to attain paradise in hereafter. “Our Lord! Give us in this world that which is good and in the Hereafter that which is good, and save us from the torment of the Fire!” (translation from Quran 2:201).
Dr. Ehrman is excellent in his field of knowledge: Critique of The Bible. But he proved to be low-grade agnostic & second-hand atheist in this interview. Good for believers 😅
Dr Bart is quite unique, whether he believes in God or not, the suffering is still happening and will always be. The fact that he still choose not to believe in God is amazing. Thinking that in the thinking of not believing in God will solve suffering issues is interesting
Accepting reality as it is and not expecting a savior other than ourselves is the whole point. When you believe things are created by a god for a purpose, or that a god will intervene to help, or that god is testing us, then you dont live life in a way with helping save humanity yourself.
@@dustinellerbe4125 there are some good points that Dr Brown made in the discussion, first there should be justice to humanity. which there is no way human themselves can achieve this. If one person killed other person and the punishment is by killing the killer, what happens to a person whom killed 2 or thousands? There must be a system which can accommodate that. Secondly, Dr brown said that in Islam, suffering can be also purification from sins, that is part of the system. There is things that Dr brown didn't mention though, that helping others and humanity can brings good rewards for the afterlife. So Muslims have been encouraged to do good to others. If Dr Bart is insisting what happens to an 8 years girl whom died because starvation. In Islam, she will go to heaven because the system is only working for adults and mentally healthy. Children and crazy people are free from consequences. The system is quite solid in Islam which that made Dr brown converted from atheism to Islam, while the system is not solid in Christianity which converted Dr Bart from Christianity to atheism. You decide. May God always helps us find the right path.
@@1104rakhmat the system you guys want is not part of reality though. That's the problem. The suffering is real and affects real people. Hoping for justice beyond death and creating stories about it doesn't make it true. Why doesn't god create a better world, or intervene to actually help people now? Bc that god doesn't exist. The god who helps humanity doesn't exist. Why wait for an afterlife to judge or punish when it can intervene on this one life that we know exists. To make up a story and say yep, this is truth with no evidences whatsoever to back it up is ludicrous. Texts about such do not back it up. People worship books with ideas in them. That's the issue at hand.
@@dustinellerbe4125 you're right, in the in is a matter of belief. In this case I believe in the system and you are not. I didn't say the suffering is not exist though, but whether we believe in the system or not, the suffering is still exist and ever will be. The people whom believe in the afterlife are not automatically dreamers, although there are people who encouraged to helps others and there people who don't. Life is always in a good balance, good and evil, happiness and sadness, day and night, etc. And for believers, it is God whom maintain it in balance.
Yes indeed both gentlemen are outstanding intellectuals, that is Br Paul, and Dr Brown, as for Dr Ehrman, how can you call him an intellect when his whole premise is based on nothing quantifiable!!! Please watch this stream again, and you will see what I mean.
@@life2.0beginandwin67 yup, he cut in mid conversation, makes his own assumptions. Totally ignorant for a professor. And he says he is not interested in the religion, well, who ask you to be interested in it in the first place? Absolutely no one. Always saying I know I know I know but when asked the fundamental stuff always answered I don't know. Ehrman was no gentleman there.
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This is such an important conversation to have... Covering all the most important questions.
dr brown is immaculate in his repose and it was a pleasure to hear his discourse on the subject and he is right suffering brings us closer to him who creates and separates the chaff from the grain to see who is grateful despite the hardships that come our way and it is true we will be recompensed in the hereafter if we are grateful here and it is temporary our hardship here and it will be there we will be compensated if we are innocent in things here omar
i didn't expect these two will have a conversation to be honest, it is so interesting to see how emotional the other guy was being and how calm and collected Dr Brown was the entire time i guess that just reflect something i already agreed with, very interesting discussion thx for paul to provide these two gentlemen a platform
@Mosaab نعم هو *"you don't speak of morality if you're atheist"* I just did, didn't I? And all atheists do. So stick your head out of your sectarian information bubble and smell the coffée. *"so you can't judge what's moral or not"* Watch me. *"because it's only subjective and you don't believe in objective morality anyway"* So what? You base your morality on a 7th century sectarian hoax. I based my morality on universal modern philosophy. Both systems are man-made. *"the other guy got frustrated and kept interrupting"* Because of a strong sense of morality and the opponent's preaching. *"simply if the Muslim in the conversation did what he did started raising his voice and interrupting , YOU would have called him emotional and even worse things"* No. I might have said he behaved badly if I thought he was, but I wouldn't say "emotional".
Bart seems more angry than reasonable. He has mentioned starving children multiple times but hasn't been able to wonder why matter in motion cares about about other matter in motion. Its an absurd concept.
Thanks Paul for hosting such prestigious guests, Much love to Dr. Laurence and Dr. Ehrman. The latter was interrupting Dr. Laurence quite often in this debate which is oddly not his habit in previous debates that i saw of him. Bless you all anyway
PS: answering the suffering topic, our sufferings is man made. refugees suffering from the dictator regimes, the poor suffers from the lack of charity on the rich behalf, third world countries suffer from ex-colonial countries and so on. Dr. needs to see the whole truth. Africa is a good land then why can't African nations reach the minimum food security, well it's the the earlier reasons all together.... Human greed and power thirst that's where human suffering comes from, Dear Dr. Ehrman If Science doesn't answer how neurons work and how singularity was made then the ONE who created Adam and the universe surely can
1:06:27 "And recall when your Lord proclaimed, ‘If you give thanks, I will indeed increase you; but if you deny, then indeed My punishment is severe.’” Quran, 7:14 When we give thanks for what we have, we condition ourselves to be aware of our state. We will count our blessings and are aware of what we have and then the worry of the things that we don't have or what we have lost won't be so overwhelming. It allows us to have the state of mind that is always ready to move to the next journey, the next challenge or the next endeavour, to not give up and feel that we have less than others or we have nothing. It is a mindset of "Thank God I have this" and we will feel at ease and clear-minded, thus being ready to give back to others who do not have what we have. It is a complete system. A note to self.
I would like to share a recent interview I watched of Hamza Yusuf when the pandemic just happened. It was very enlightening. He pointed out that children do not concern themselves with the question of God. They submit to their circumstances. The only people who put these questions are adults like Bart Ehrman who THINKS these kids are having issues of theology when they just submit to their conditions. As human beings, personally, I believe that when I witness or myself experience suffering, it manifests something in my mind to conjure up love for others, sympathy, helping others and teamwork. And that is what God created for us too. Hamza Yusuf mentioned the many attributes of God too but sometimes we are just too focused on one.
I remember Hamza Yusuf mentioned that human suffering is part of the free will concept/package. If you expect God to relieve suffering every time then he should break your arm when you cheated on your taxes or lied to your wife....
Professor Bart should know that God will never punish some body who has never been informed about the truth. This person will receive the message the day of judgement and be tested. God knows what we don't know and He is the infinitly Wise
The issue with Bart, a well educated Christian scholar shows how Christianity doesn’t have answers for many problems. The more you understand Christianity with an open mind the doubtful it becomes,the exact opposite of Islam.
In Dr Lawrence Brown view suffering happens but god will compensate in the other world.... In dr Bart Ehrman view suffering happens and nothing can be done.... Wich view gives hope ?
@@charlievaughan1308 The suffering will always exist and there are people you can never help and there are criminals that will just go away with their crimes....
Firstly thanks very much Paul and to the esteemed guests. A few notes: - Denying God because of suffering is emotional, and psychological, we do this because we can't fathom a loving God that can allow suffering. But that's using OUR metric of suffering, of pain, of vissicitudinous existentialism. Eternal life completely changes this discussion, as we know, a man who suffered all his life will forget all the luxuries and riches of his world life, however kingly or extravagantly he was treated. - More, is that we know how effort, struggle and dopamine works - the more the struggle, the sweeter the reward. The more the luxury, the less the meaning, existence as a dependent creature is necessitated by struggle, toil etc. - As for Dr Ehrman's claims of evangelising. Of course Dr Brown was evangelising, so was Dr Ehrman! We all want our views to be taken in board by others, let's not prejudice or demonise this natural aptitude when it's traditionally religious or monotheistic. Atheists can be some of the most rabid evangelisers, hence the thousands if not more twitter and TH-cam accounts battling the assumed scourge of creationism and religion. - The conversation was good but it didn't go beyond a basic level, the basic tuggle between theist and atheist. Would love to have Dr Ehrman back to get stuck in with the NT or perhaps in dialogue with the impressive Dr Ali Ataie. God bless you all.
Bravo, Dr. Ehrman. You make your position very clear and succinct. Thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. I believe diversity in opinion and faith should be respected. Faith is faith. Faith doesn't make something true. But it has value to the believer, so I respect that. Learned some things about Islam from hearing Dr. Brown as well. I have always enjoyed the study of world religions and ethics. I didn't know much about the atheist/agnostic perspectives, so I decided to learn more about that particular point of view. Thank you.
Dr brown , u have the calmness of a knowing person Calmness & silence after caught truth Happy for u , God bless ur days amen 🤲🏻🌺🌺 Thnx Paul , God bless ur days too 🤲🏻🌺🌺
Dr Brown looks like not on same frequency with Dr Ehrman when discussing about suffering. I think best person to me when discussing suffering is Sheikh Hamza Yusuf. I watch a video of him explaining suffering in a short, logical and beautiful way. He can talk about Islam just by using logic. Hope it happens!
Jazakallah Bro Paul, had invited both of them in your Blogs, respect for both of them...especially Dr Brown, being watch many of his early video his journey to Islam.
Dr. Brown led this by example, coherent arguments and fine conduct. One can strongly sense Dr. Bart's acceptance of the existence of God inherent in his tantrum-like response to suffering. His problem is neither the existence of God nor suffering. If he truly rejected God then he won't need the antics. His rage against suffering coupled with his willful blindness of the good generated by suffering and it's sifting function, make me doubt that he doesn't believe in the existence of God. In my estimation, it's more a deficit in humility and an attempt to challenge God. May Allah safeguard us.
![เบิ้ล ปทุมราช - สาวสอง ( มีมี่ของอ้าย ) ft. ตาต้า,ต้องเต [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mqlMjnP08XI/mqdefault.jpg)
*Timestamps:*
0:00 - Introduction
0:08 - Topics of discussion
0:25 - Background of Dr. Lawrence Brown
1:10 - Background of Dr. Bart Ehrman
2:02 - Excerpt from the introduction of Dr. Brown's book
3:10 - Dr. Brown explains the introduction to his book
4:40 - Beliefs of Dr. Ehrman
6:22 - Dr. Brown explains Agnostic Believers
7:57 - Different Journeys of Dr. Brown and Dr. Ehrman
8:46 - How Dr. Brown came to Islam
10:50 - Dr. Ehrman gives his opinions on Dr. Brown's conversion story
11:38 - How Dr. Ehrman became an Agnostic
14:21 - Dr. Brown's views on Atheism & near death experiences
20:43 - Dr. Ehrman on explanation of near death experiences
24:34 - Dr. Brown's rebuttal to Dr. Ehrman's explanation and continued discussion on near death experiences
29:04 - Supernatural explanations of events & existence
31:32 - What caused the Big Bang ?
33:09 - Origin of life
36:06 - Fundamenal questions that aren't answered by Atheists
36:43 - Faith in Science vs Faith in God
42:08 - The Problem of Evil/Suffering
(Dr. Brown's arguments)
46:23 - Dr. Ehrman's contention to Dr. Brown's arguments
49:19 - Dr. Brown's counter argument
51:59 - Dr. Ehrman's counter argument
52:41 - Discussion on People dying young
55:20 - Sufferings of people
56:43 - Reasons for suffering
58:37 - Accountability of children vs adults
59:43 - Deaths in natural disasters & suffering being an evidence of God
1:02:45 - God creating suffering
1:05:31 - Hardships making people Grateful
1:07:18 - Day of Judgement, Good Afterlife for Non-Muslims & Criteria for Judgement
1:10:57 - Fate of People who reject Prophet Muhammad ﷺ
1:12:51 - What does it mean to be a Muslim ?
1:15:23 - Islamic view of Purpose of Suffering
1:18:13 - Science vs Religion
1:19:59 - Explanation of the universe by Theists and Atheists
1:22:13 - God vs Science of Gaps
1:24:13 - Dr. Ehrman's Closing Statements
1:26:25 - Dr. Brown's Closing Statements
1:28:35 - Wrapping Up
SUBHANALLAH ❤️🤍❤️
Very Interesting Discussion
Did Bert ehrman address the issue of Christ being god?
@@iconoclast400 that wasn't the topic 🤦🏻♂️
Thank you for this time stamp. I watched to 58 minutes and very frustrated with Bart !
Thank you..
Thanks
Assalam alaikum to my brothers and sisters in faith. I would like to thank everybody for their comments. It is true I am not a debater, but then again this was not supposed to be a debate but a dialogue. But it turned out to be what it is. I think all of us tend to look back after an exchange like this and regret some things we said, wish we had said other things, and kick ourselves for the missed opportunities that passed us by in the heat of the moment. As for myself, I realize I could have risen more to the moment, but it is just not my nature to argue at that level. But maybe that will change with more experience :-). Please continue to support Paul for all of the fine work he is doing in this regard.
Waalaikumsalam Dr., Great work that you do and your explanations do sound good, thank you for your efforts in da'wah
You showed a great deal patience. It would have been nice if the other side also did the same. But anyway It was amazing how you maintained being calm & collected. May Allah bless you for your efforts & works.
I feel you did well. In fact Dr Bart started the debate and in fact he kept interupting you and refused to play fair by refusing to answer some of your questions & then not giving you enough time to answer his questions.
I agree with br. Hasan. Even though proff. Bart lost his cool temporarily and raised his voice , you still kept your cool and did not let it affect you. Very very admirable Dr Brown. May Allah bless you with a long healthy and happy life.
I do wish you did explain regard the optic nerve it would have been educational to all of us.
He was telling we do not know how brain cells work. That is not true. We do know a lot and a lot still needs to be known. There is electrical conduction impulse transmission and the chemical neurotransmitters across the synopsis all together propagate motor action and emotional functions. A zillion different cells do zillion different functions individually and collectively as programmed.
As far as I am concerned, there is no program without a programmer.
The programmer behind our own development and function we call Allah/ GOD.
We have signs of our programmer within us and in the CREATION of the fine tuned UNIVERSE.
Willingly or unwillingly we all submit, not just us but even the PLANTS AND THE PLANETS .
I learned a lot listening to you Dr Brown. Thanks.
Dr Brown, you tried your best. Thats what counts
Can we Muslims and non-Muslims at least admit that Br. Paul is killing it with 1st class, world renowned guests?!
Undoubtedly a big thanks to him for coming up with this channel and his idea of keeping things more academic and scholarly rather than shouting apologetics and other crazy stuffs. So we owe a lot to him.
True
Just Super
I agree!
im screaming!!! honestly surprised hahaha
The difference between humbled wisdom and arrogant ignorance is clearly evident in the session from the scratch till the end. May ALLAH reward you big brother Paul for being the constant seeker and helping hundreds along the way. love from Bangladesh.
Arrogant is 100% true of him.
@@PaulLHunziker to the extent of turning a matter of importance into a pathetic joke. I'm sorry for being a bit rude but I learned quite a bit about the new testament creation (corruption) from Dr. Bart, it's sad to see his intellect deteriorate. Dr. Lawrence as always, by ALLAH's grace, is the man who has been blessed with amazing perseverance and intellectual heights with clear insight. Arrogance won't be able to stand up to such knowledge which is in tune with natural inclination. Peace brother
@@BaldTom that's how fanatical and biased they can be when Bat wipes the floor with the so called doctor that kept contradicting himself and kept wobbling all through the conversation. When he couldn't measure up with Bart intellectually he started preaching. He's argument was so poor that I started doubting his academic credentials. He's so pathetic when it comes to proving his faith and the worst blunder he committed was to claim that the God of the Jews, Christians and Muslims is the same God.
Indeed
@@SadiFromEarthNOPE
Dr Laurence Brown conducted himself beautifully and in a most respected manner, throughout the whole stream MashaAllah. Thoroughly enjoyed watching this. Jzk, brother Paul for the entertaining stream ☺️
The biggest injustice of the man is when he transfers his own responsibility to God and blames God for it (instead of blaming himself). The starvation in this world is an issue that man should own. God has given enough resources at human's disposal to feed everyone. It is the man who hoards, steals, and does not share with others and then he blames God for their suffering.
MaadhALLAH indeed, man is responsible.
@@lewis72 i agree there are other cases. lets take one at a time, first, do you agree on the above case for starvation or not?
@@lewis72 do you now what are the major causes of cancer? majority of the cancer cases are caused by man's mishandling (due to lack of proper understanding) of chemistry of the body and introducing enzymes that are harmful to human beings e.g water in plastic bottles, alcohol, junk food, over usage of soft drinks, smoking, exposure to radiation, over exposure to sun, pesticides, etc. So again God cannot be blamed for man''s acts whether they are done by man deliberately or due to sheer ignorance. As per the cancers in the children, if they are NOT induced by any other human actions then God can be held responsible for taking the life of a child. But first, you have to prove that these cancers in kids are not caused by man. Today, if you can't prove that the man caused the cancer in children then you can't blame God today as well. If past performances are to predict the future, given the history of what causes cancers, it could very well be that all cancers are caused by man. However, until you find that final answer, you cannot blame God.
Having said the above, from Islamic stand point, God tests us with loss of life and possessions. Those who blame God, go astray and never find their destination (in this world or hereafter). Those who say Indeed, We Belong To God and Indeed we shall return to Him. This means this blessing (life or possession) was not hours to begin with. God gave it to us and he took it back. When we will return to Him, only then we will see/experience the full spectrum of his justice and reasoning behind the judgment. Until then we don't blame God.
The answers to end much suffering are in Islam. We have personal responsibility to establish collective justice in this world through our deen. Those that are God conscious will be in the pursuit of this, as they are aware of accountability. As a result a fairer more just society will be established. This is seen in the life of our prophet (pbuh). This is how the good will be separated from the evil. As Mr Erhman doesn’t believe in God then theses are all man made problems, so exactly what are the atheist doing to change the status quo? Today’s society without any sense of accountability to a creator where individuals do as they please, tend to think mainly about themselves, others suffering is not their responsibility, that’s why there’s a stark difference between first world and third world problems, distribution of wealth a major factor. The belief in an afterlife gives hope to the one suffering as the believers know that leaving this world means an end to suffering.
@@lewis72 discussion with an unreasonable person is not a good use of a dialogue. People who don't stand on firm ground always hop to the next issue before closing the first one.
Despite the fact that Dr. Bart Herman has so much knowledge in NT textual criticism, I found him to be an extremely superficial person. Dr. Brown, I applaud you for your patience, wisdom and well representation. May Allah forgive your sins and guide Dr. Herman before its too late.
Special thanks to Paul Williams for bringing us those historic discussions.
The only way Allah SWT might guide Bart Ehrman is if he becomes less arrogant
@@raymaaf7516 HOW ANIMALS SUBMISSION TO ALLAH( SUBHANALLAH,AMAZING)
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I don’t think he’s superficial, I think he’s still grieving from whatever damage (suffering) it has caused him…. I have been in somewhat similar situations in life .. I was in the surgical ward seeing people dying and in miserable state and I was in a miserable state too .. One of the doctors came to me, who knew what I was going through and told me see around you what do you see ? Doesn’t that make you suffering insignificant, my response was my pain is in me , why am I suffering this way and there pain is in them why are they suffering ? To be honest I felt no matter how insignificant my issue was but it appeared very serious to me because I could feel it .. but later in life when the mental wound healed I realise I was just being a selfish ungrateful b*t-ch … but the point I am making the only way mental hurt can be undone is by talking to people , friends and family about it … the more he interact and engages with people who have gone through similar path more he will understand suffering and maybe he might be able to snap out of it … but all we can do is try , as he is a good genuine honest man and Allah guides whom he wills
I know this Doctor, he actually works in Madina, Saudi Arabia as an Eye Opthamologist (eye doctor). I've went to him many times for my eye check up. The Hospital he works in is called Magrabi
Just watching the interaction between these two demonstrates the difference between a person who is connected with God, and a person who isn't. Dr. Brown is a class act and exudes light. May God bless him and guide those who have yet to find the truth.
Dr Laurence Brown carried him self with dignity, his face is glowing with light. Amazing human being, may Allah accept your effort
❤️
@@BloggingTheology the Islam views: Life is a challenge... Allah created human in adversities..the repeating verse in the quran is Allah will challenge man.. and Allah made the earth for man and man is the Stuart on earth..many evils are because of humans such as kids starving..this is something we would answer to, and the tsunami and the accidents....come on how many interventions does he want ?😀
@@BloggingTheology thank you Mr Williams
Yes he does have the Nur and so does our Brother Paul.
@@BloggingTheology alhamdulillahi-lladhi hadaanaa lihadhaa
Have never seen Bart Ehrman so emotional. This journey is going to get interesting.
You mean arrogant?
Because he is truly knowing that if he faces Islam then he will be cornered to his final destination of believing and embracing it but he likes to keep neutral by hiding behind some emotional behave to stay away from that tough situation for him as a highly educated man ... It is a tactic that's all ...
@@Zenigma217 don't quite think it is arrogance. Dr. Ehrman is quite brilliant in his area of expertise and has a history with Christianity and was unable to fully feel confident and have control of his emotions. He is in new, uncharted waters and very interested in what is to come.
@@muslimboyilyas775 how’d you know he’s not giving his wealth to poor maybe he is … We can’t underestimate someone’s painful experience and we need to be charitable to his feelings , I think 🤔 the more he talks about it, it will be better for him and I believe there’s a genuine interest in him to seek the truth that’s why he has started talking about his opinions and feeling with other Muslims .. may Allah guide him
@@Zenigma217 I don’t think he’s arrogant he’s a genuine agnostic/atheist , he has quantified his position to suffering and emotions and most atheist/agnostics claim there’s no element of emotion involved in there decision to be faithless …
The contentions Dr. Ehrman raised about the problem of suffering are tough to answer. I have struggled with the issue of suffering at some point. The best answers that i could think of are: 👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼
1- Imagine someone having a nightmare. In the nightmare the person could be seeing all horrible things and feeling the worst type of pain. However, once that individual is awake, that pain he felt in the nightmare will be insignificant and he will continue his life as if he never had that nightmare. That's how I see the after life, a long eternal one that make all the previous pain endured in the normal life insignificant.
As a matter of fact, there's a Hadith which goes with this reasoning.
Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The most privileged people in the world among the people of Hellfire will come on the Day of Resurrection to be dipped in Hellfire, then it will be said: O son of Adam, did you see any good? Did you get any blessing? He will say: No, by Allah, my Lord! Then, the most miserable people in the world among the people of Paradise will come on the Day of Resurrection to be dipped in Paradise, then it will be said: O son of Adam, did you see any hardship? Did you have any distress? He will say: No, by Allah, my Lord! I did not once see hardship or distress.”
Muslim 2807
2- The second reasoning I have used to explain the issue of pain is to imagine a 1 year baby taken by his mother to a doctor office to get a needle shot for a treatment.
The baby might suffer a lot of emotional and physical pain while he's getting the jab. He might start crying and look in agony and pain at his mother.
He might feel betrayed by his mother, and might not make sense of the pain his mother had put on him. However, only when the baby grows up, his knowledge will comprehend the good in the treatment he received as baby. Only then he will realize the love his mother had for him and why she made him endure that pain.
That's how I think about our intellect as humans. We fall short of grasping the full picture because we can only see a pixel, whereas only God has the full picture.
Very good! Thanks.
You're totally right, and I would like to add that, when Allah grant someone money and wealth, it is actually a test for that person. When someone who is a billionaire per se, but he spends him money on gambling, cars, houses..etc then he would accountable for that at the Day of Judgement. There's a Hadith where the Prophet (PBUH) reportedly said:
"The feet of a servant will not move on the Day of Resurrection until he is asked about his life and how he spent it, about his knowledge and how he did it, about his money from where he earned it and how he spent it, and about his body and how he used it"
Couple of months ago, there is an article that said that Elon Musk could use just %2 of his net worth in order to solve world hunger. I think the burden are on people like this, not Allah (SWT). Allah granted them the money so they can help other people out who are in need of such help, and not spend it on unnecessary stuff. Of course that does not mean that they should spend all of their money, but in the case of someone like Elon Musk, I think he is far more capable of solving issues like world hunger and it would not harm his wealth one bit.
Clearly you havent considered how complex the problem of suffering is. You need to think more about different evils then you will change your mind
@@Cassim125 clearly you cant present an intellectual response because you never knew me or knew what I have considered when it comes to the problem of suffering.
Is a condescending response all you’ve got?
@@hmansour89 what makes you think discussions on the poe are ever intellectual. Here is a quote from safaruk chowdhury a fellow mus who's written a book on the poe. I admire this honesty which most ppl avoid. He says
1. Moral insensitivity: theodicies do not take suffering seriously because they make an equivalence between all types of evils. Horrendous evils on a mass scale (like genocide) and a personal tribulation (like an accident), for example, are explained in exactly the same way by appeal to some greater good, which abandons any distinction in degree, quantity, and severity of an evil like suffering.
2. Moral blindness: theodicies often are formulated in such a way as to occlude the radically cruel and merciless nature of evil-even uncon scionable evil.
3. Licenses evil: theodicies license evil because by explaining them away, justifying them, or ameliorating them removes any or at least weakens moral responsiveness. The status quo therefore remains unchanged and so evil is allowed to persist in existence and process.
4. Impersonal: theodicies involve a detached logical approach when making moral assessments and calculations. The analysis of evil within theodicies is expressed in a formal manner, removed from a subjective appreciation or engagement of its severity and impact.
5.Dysfunctionality: theodicies do not understand how morality works because the logic governing the explanatory basis for evil reduces to excessive utilitarian considerations like outweighing factors rather than the victims.
I appreciate hearing Dr Brown after a long time. I first came across his story 5 or so years ago on a very old computer with an appalingly slow connection. i was amazed at his level of imaan and the the test he faced after reversion. A very short while later as my world went topsy turvy later i took comfort in his story.it was like Allah was showing me something alhumdulillah
When it comes to Dr. Brown, I love it how he remains cool as a cucumber throughout the conversation. It was great. Thanks a lot Mr. Williams
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 cool as a cucumber
Yes, but I wish Dr.Brown would’ve been at least a little more aggressive and stand up for himself a little harder.
@@raymaaf7516 he Is who he Is.
I like cucumbers 😂
Its good for your skin and probably has other benefits.
@@raymaaf7516 Best fighter is never angry. Float like a butterfly sting like a bee
As a Maths student I find the response "There's no scientific evidence for God" no more ridiculous than saying "There's no scientific evidence for numbers", the paradigm these atheists come from is deeply flawed.
I would genuinely like to know how you as a maths student would approach to supernatural things more precisely a God. What method would you choose or what's your approach in this topic ? Thank you 😊
@@SohailAh46 Sure, well the evidence is glaring I'm going to use the argument from the Quran.
A verse im sure you're familiar with and it says "were they created *by* nothing?" notice how it doesn't say "were they created *from* nothing?" That is because this higher being or entity did infact create us *from* nothing.
Why do I bring this up? It is because we know that the universe had a beginning and so what was before it... nothing? So the question we must ask is *how* does something come from nothing, seriously how can something come from nothing and the argument in the verse is put perfectly where they created *by* nothing, if the universe came from nothing (which ironically we & atheist share a belief in that) than it *must* absolutely must come by Something. Nothing cannot come *from* nothing *by* nothing.
*(**52:35**) Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?*
And then ontop of all that, we have intelligent design in this universe undoubtedly so it's blatantly obvious to me that the one who created everything is completely aware of us and clearly designed us and the world for us, and even ontop of all that, you have the Quran the literal word of God which has 0 contradictions even when every single "holy book" in existence does and its perfectly preserved even though every single "holy book" isn't and the scientific, historic miracles and prophecies that there is no way he could've known about.
@@jasonharris351 I get it. Jazak Allahu khairan 😊
Lots of love to dr laurence brown, He gave all answers smartly and nicely and made discussion awesome and inspiring..
he gives nothing substantial to the debate, just preaching his sermon
One day Mr.Bart Ehrman will see the light inshallah
I’m Muslim because after thoroughly studying Islam and religion I’ve concluded that every claim allegedly by our Creator is the most believable thing to go on! 🤷🏻✌️☝️
HOW ANIMALS SUBMISSION TO ALLAH( SUBHANALLAH,AMAZING)
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Nice studying and conclusion ... May Allah bless you and fix you on the straight path ...
@@IosifStalin2 Apuss fanboy failing to understand logic and making pejorative statements
@@IosifStalin2 what cult do you follow mate ?
@@IosifStalin2 Islam is theocentric. And theology is no different. Truth claims from a God can be deduced logically as opposed to a universe of random combustion in which case there is only an insistence on unliving things. The true atheist is a nihilist and therefore an enemy to logic. Unless of course you think of hard determinism as a crux but that too would qualify a breach of ethics, morality, humanity, artistic pursuits, the first cause, impossibility to know exact configuration of everything, quantum mechanics, free will, and so on. The clutches with which you are balancing ignore the fundamental inevitability of creation to return to it's beginning and be judged
br. Paul has been doing wonderful works, unprecedented !ALLAH bless you and your family
I really like how Mr Paul is well versed in his guests' writings and mastered the technique of moderating debates/discussions.
Dr Lawrence Brown has very nice insight. He realizes the importance of science in Islam, and his discussions reflect this with enlightenment.
Islam and factual science goes hand in hand.
Not bro-science.
HOW ANIMALS SUBMISSION TO ALLAH( SUBHANALLAH,AMAZING)
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Dr Laurence Brown has (Masha’Allah) done a lot of great work. I have benefited from both his books and talks.
In my honest and personal opinion, Paul should have brought in Hamza Tzortis for this one. This was a philosophical debate, in which you need a philosopher of religion like Hamza. Dr Brown is a doctor and has a background in comparative religion. As a muslim I don’t think that many of his answers were convincing (not just for Dr. Ehrman, but I would suspect for a lot of other atheists, agnostics and others)
If the theme of the talk was about the Bible and how the Bible can lead to the Quran (or something like that) Dr. Brown would have been great. But philosophical debates is somewhat outside of his field. For example he should have mention the fitrah as ‘a proof’ we as Muslims believe in.
We have to remember, there are a lot of people watching these videos and we must bring people who can properly representation the Islamic position, lest we make our view look weak.
All in all he did a decent job and may Allah reward him immensely. As I mentioned, he has done a lot of great work.
As i see it suffering is an inevitable thing that all humans will face for as long as they live on this Earth.We only differ in our degree of suffering but more important than that is how we cope with suffering .We tend to blame God whenever we suffer but we dont thank God for all the gifts He has given us eg the gift of sight, hearing etc .So i think we are doing injustice to ourselves when we blame God for every misery we meet in life and we are not going to gain anything by blaming God for our misfortunes.There is only one way out i.e .to be thankful to God for whatever misfortune strikes us and also find ways and pray to God to deliver us from our suffering .We have a whole lifetime to come to terms with God,our Creator .God has manifested His existence through creation itself and through His prophets.To find God we dont have to ask questions which even science cannot give.For example we don't need to spend our lifetime finding out how the universe was created ,we only need to accept that God,the Creator created the universe.God doesn't need us to solve science puzzles to believe in His existence.
@@NGabriel88 *"As a muslim I don’t think that many of his answers were convincing (not just for Dr. Ehrman, but I would suspect for a lot of other atheists, agnostics and others)"*
You can't really defend the indefensible. It's virtually impossible to argue that he abrahamitic gods are just given the suffering in this world AND how we're born into different environments from which we have very different chances to become believers of the respective religions even though we're all exposed to them.
I love that Bart Ehrman has recently been interacting with Muslims. May Allah guide him
Ameen.
@@bigfish291 HOW ANIMALS SUBMISSION TO ALLAH( SUBHANALLAH,AMAZING)
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Ameen
Aameen
Ameen
At times this discussion was somewhat awkward, but I loved how almost everyone kept their composer and professionalism despite the disagreements.
On the subject of suffering, I have had several students argue about the existence of a merciful God who allows suffering to happen. Reward and accountability is what I always tell them. For someone who is handicapped, disfigured, starving, poor, cold, suffering...etc, it is their burden to be patient, but it is also a greater responsibility on us as humans, governments, and communities to alleviate and protect them. The burden not only falls on those suffering, but on those who are witness.
Damn. I'm stealing that. Bless you.
Thanks Mr. Paul Williams for arranging such an amazing dialogue between them!!
Respect both guest I'm a fan of
Dr. Lawrence Brown ✨
I understand Bart's point of view and we should recognize his deep empathy for human beings and their sufferings. The issue is that most of these sufferings are caused by other human beings who, for their own lust for power and greed, loot, plunder, murder, and rape, and that's where we are tested on how we stop those aggressors from causing those sufferings upon humans and other fellow creatures.
Dr. Brown is not approaching the topic of this discussion in a way taught by the Qur'an. He's been cornered and now has no idea on how to take the discussion forward.
Bart's point is useless since he can't even prove that evil exists. To a human, killing an innocent Jew is good, to another, it's bad. So, how does he prove that what he thinks is evil, is objectively evil?
I agree, it seems like Dr. Brown was cornered in this passionate discussion/debate.
Allah says: *“Do not spread corruption on the land after it has been set in order.”*
- (Qur’an 7:56)
No one was suffering when Allah placed the first humans on the earth. Humans are the cause of their own suffering, but they’ve decided to blame their own mess on God.
*“Man is a witness against himself, despite all the excuses he may put forward.”*
- (Qur’an 74:14 - 15)
The poverty, bloodshed, and starvation that he complains about are the result of greed, selfishness, arrogance, etc. If people didn’t act in this way and they acted in accordance to God’s command, this suffering wouldn’t exist.
“Will you place someone who will spread corruption and shed blood in there while we glorify Your praises?” Allah responded (to the angels), *“I know what you do not know.”*
- (Qur’an 2:30)
There seems to be a false presupposition that it is impossible for Allah to be All-Good if He is allowing this corruption to continue. But Allah is All-Wise, just because you can’t understand the Wisdom behind it doesn’t mean you reject Him. You have to be extremely arrogant to deny Allah on this basis.
Well said, u put what i couldn't express (cuz of my bad English) into words!
Most of suffering caused by humans themselves... And this verse 1:27:38 that Dr Brown read summarize things .
You hit the nail on the head @Silence in Solitude. In the end faith does not come from knowledge, but from God's mercy, which He grants without limit to those who seek to purify themselves.
Even Angels Ask Why by Jeffrey Lang (along with his lectures) is one of the best studies on the topic of why God allows suffering.
surah 2 verse 30
agreed, Jeffrey Lang is a gifted individual Mashallah
Absolutely, 100% agree. Jeffery Lang's explanation of this topic immediately comes to mind. Paul, I am not sure if you have access to Jeffery, but I was thinking, this the entire time. I don't know him personally and not sure if he would even consider such a debate atmosphere, but I believe he has truly done a groundbreaking job of deeply answering this question. A question that he himself deeply wrestled with.
The atheist argument that Bart presented, is one sided and you can see it is fueled with so much emotion that it never allows the possibility to acknowledge the opposite also exists in the world. What the angels reveal and what they conceal. No disrespect to Dr. Brown, but he was likely not expecting the approach Bart used to repeatdly push the conversation into a chaotic one rather than a calm, rational and reasoned one. As many of us know, the answers are there but it takes time to ponder, and both the heart and the mind to be willing to consider a complete idea enough to realize that it's our paradigms that prevent us from seeing the picture from a viewpoint that transforms what yet first glance looks like a massive problem into a necessary component of a masterfully designed system.
@@seedsforhumanity2455 jeffrey lang has debated before btw, idk if you knew
Jazak Allah Khayran Brother Paul for this great Show . Divine decree is a major belief in Islam & Although the suffering of people is hard for us humans to explain as we are limited in knowledge , We have to accept it , show patience & have complete faith in Allah SWT plan. Jazak Allah khayran Dr Brown as well for your patience & humility ...."Who, when disaster strikes them , say :Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to him we will return .Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy.And it is those who are rightly guided " Holy Quran (2 :156-157)
Dr. Ehrman is such an intelligent man.
As a muslim i didn’t think Dr. Brown gave satisfactory answers. I’ve heard better arguments and answers regarding suffering and heaven and hell. But respect to Dr. Brown for doing his best.
Yh I've heard answers better answers too and u think Bart should ask a muhammad hijab or subhoor Ahmed, hamza yusuf, shiekh uthman and etc. But Dr brown tried and respect for that
then tell what you heard or just remain silence rather undermine
Bart Erhman has been on Islamic channels recently and discussing Islam even though his expertise is Christianity - this proves that Islam is way more interesting phenomena. Even Jordan Peterson had discussion with Mohammed Hijab - all these intellectuals are talking about Islam. Major thanks to Paul Williams and other Dawah people for their hard-work. 😍😍🥰
Scholars have been studying Christianity and Christian manuscripts for nearly 2000 years. So I guess this means that Christianity is way more interesting. See how silly that logic sounds?
@@Ask-Isa That is bogus - they are from Christian background and some are still Christians. Have you seen Bart Erhman discuss Hinduism? Or Jordan Peterson discuss Hindu religions? Also - no Christian manuscripts for 200 years after Jesus.
@@summertea4382 once again, you cannot even begin to compare the scholarly level that Christian manuscripts have endured to Islamic. Even Muslim scholars today, including ones who have been interviewed on blogging theology have openly admitted this.
@@summertea4382 HOW ANIMALS SUBMISSION TO ALLAH( SUBHANALLAH,AMAZING)
th-cam.com/video/Yztpx5juPIY/w-d-xo.html
@@Ask-Isa Christianity is 600 years older than Islam - so of course it would have more manuscripts because there was 600 years. However they also have way more problems to contend because of this.
Pray for Dr Ehrman for the guidance. May Allah reward Dr Brown & Mr Williams for steadfastness in Deen.
Aamiin allahhuma aamiin
Dr Brown is so calm , humble . He has a very soothing personality! May God bless him .
صلى الله على نبينا محمد
For someone who say religious people are emotional, dr erhman seems more emotional here.
Jazakallah for this brother paul
I personally felt Dr Laurence could not properly argue against Dr Bart’s points . But his closing statement summed up his argument very successfully.
With all the tantrums thrown his way how could he focus? Qudos to him.
He wasn't allowed to make a point and yes he is a scientist you need a philosopher to argue against these claims who knows about the philosophy of science
I think Hamza Tzortsis would be able to argue Bart's points
He made very good points but he didn't add the shades of gray or nuance or connect certain points like saying life is a test of sincerity, janna is an invitation, ppls sufferring can also be a test for us, reason and empathy both stem from truth, one in the heart and the other in the brain and so forth, he could of went into how the islamic way deals with theae points.
There is a good hadith Allah is merciful to those who are Merciful to others.
God bless you brother Laurence and make this straight path easy for you amen thank you so much .plz do more of these. Very inspiring and useful info.
God guides whom he will to the right path . . .
Wonderful to hear the three of you and your ideas
Dr Bart is very emotional. Dr Lawrence is very calm .
That only tells us which team you're supporting. not which side is more reasonable. remember that when you play the judge without specifying the supposed flaws in the arguments presented. so far one side is evoking unfalsifiable supernatural entities for that which they found to be complicated and the other is skeptical of such supernatural assumptions. specially when cross cultural examination reveal completely different mythical stories that attempts to explain the same thing. which drives the chances for the particular myth you fancy to be true to near zero. I would say Dr Bart was reasonable and objective while Dr Lawrence was appealing to subjective and emotional arguments. still respect for both for the civil discussion.
@@m.deadly5952 i disagree. Dr bart was emotional and ultimately his reasons for not believing in God are also emotional. But most important he did not allow the other party to speak but kept on interupting over and over again and even raised his voice..it seems more like classic bully behaviour and not the calm and rational way i expected from dr bart in fact he behaved very agressively not in a rational way that i have seen him in the past.
Because Dr Lawrence is intolerably stupid.
Easy to be calm if you’re BULLSHITTING.
@@lilyrosesoul0077 *"ultimately his reasons for not believing in God are also emotional"*
It's a bit funny how muslims approach this: We unbelievers point out that your god is horribly evil, and you basically say "he's good by his own definition and that's what counts, and since there's no other objective yardstick, you're purely emotional when you say you don't like suffering, sadistic "tests", eternal torture and our god's extreme narcissism. All of these attributes of god are perfectly justified according to god". So any moral judgement by people who are atheist is automatically demoted to "being emotional". It would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious that you're morally stunted by your religion.
*"it seems more like classic bully behaviour and not the calm and rational way i expected from dr bart"*
I think it's great he wouldn't let Brown just fill the time with preaching and bad rationalizations. There was no bullying here, it's not like Dr Ehrman was anything like e.g. Muhammad Hijab.
Salaam alaikum brother Paul, Masha-Allah what an interview this is and what a surprise!! We've been waiting for Dr Bart Erhman for a long time, as for Dr Lawrence brown has been in your podcast before and is always welcome. May Allah preserve Dr Lawrence brown and brother Paul and guide Dr Erhman to the truth of Islam, Allahumma Ameen. Subhaana-Allah I'm so amazed at the collective patience Dr Brown showed as I'm watching the talk, it's amazing he didn't lose his cool. I'm completely taken by surprise as to why Dr Bart Erhman couldn't hold his cool at all. Dr Bart Erhman wanted to drag brother Paul with him, I'm sure brother Paul didn't want nothing to do with that. I'm sure brother Paul will disagree with much of what Dr Bart Erhman said and I'm sure he will agree with everything Dr Brown said. I believe the verses of the Qur'an Dr Brown read sums everything else!!
Wa alaykumu s-salam
drive safely brother..we love you.
@@charlievaughan1308 On what..
@@charlievaughan1308 brainwashed secularists movements..nothing more.
Listening to an atheist arguments is such a humbling experience...you just want to pray all the time thanking God for not being one of them, asking Him to never let you go astray.
Masha Allah brother Paul. Thanks for arranging this discussion/ debate.
Dr Bart Ehrman sounds like he's hurting inside to me. We can only pray for God to guide him. The fact that he's willing to participate in discussions like these is enough proof for me that he's trying and God's guiding him.
Christianity can ruin n hurt people. Most atheist are former Christians that got hurt when they found out they are in a false religion n now they think everything is fake.
Don't quit your day job for a career in psychology.
@@jesan733 you don't have to be a professional to see someone in distress. Christianity really hurt Bart that he won't even study other religions because he thinks if he gets attached to another the same thing might happen. He did say many times he was a devout Christian. Most atheists are former Christians who did some study on their own n saw how deceiving the church is. Its pure evil, they brain wash people n teach them falsehood. The dark ages were horrible n held Europe back because they allowed only priests to read the bible n they burned any nontrinatrian after the councils. That was a huge mistake. The bigger mistake was glueing a horrible translated tanahk to their false new testament. Any intellect that pointed out the obvious evidence n falsehood n contradiction was charged with heresy. The funny part is that they were never able to explain the trinity in 1 official universal n easy way. Especially when the 1st commandment is very clear n has no secret hidden interpretation.
@@kingofdetroit358 as I said, don't quit your day job.
@madd, that was my thought too. Bart saids it's because there's suffering in the world and not because of the errors in the Bible but I don't know I believe that. When you spend your whole life completely believing something is true without a doubt and finding out that's it's not true. It really hurts. You start question everything. I love Bart and have listened to him for many years . I hope he finds truth and happiness.
My level of faith is getting higher after watching your videos. Thank you for arranging all of this.
Paul certainly is doing great work MashaAllah a great service to humanity. May Allah ( swt) give him exponential reward.
Paul, how much i love your videos, infinity! Thank you so much for all the hard work you put in to make this all happen.
Glad you like them!
Nice discussion. Regarding tsunami that mentioned many times by Dr Ehrmann. Many muslims could be died as shahid/syuhada. I am Indonesian and according to some ustadz/ islamic scholars in indonesia, many died during sujud, as it seems when the tsunami happened, they were doing dhuha prayer (tsunami happened in the morning time). There are always many hikmah behind everything, human mind cannot reach it.
After listening and watching many discussions like this...it seems the patience to listen is one of the most needed. And many arrogant people have lack of patient to listen.
I hope we will still be guided in the way of Allah/istiqomah till soul separate from our bodies.
Thank you bro Paul👍🙏😊
Allah taala says in Quran "I know, you know not."
part of surah 2 verse 30.
Also from surah 18 where al Khidir was given guidance from God to do things that Prophet Moses knows not, only to explain that we will never be able to have patience over the things we know not, which is Allah taala's wisdom. May Allah taala grant us patience over the things we know and the things we know not.
In the end, there are many things unknowable, which is left "ghaib" to us. May Allah taala keep us steadfast on the deen until the end.
Quite shocking to know that Erhman would've still stayed a Christian even though he knew that the Bible contained contradictions and mistakes. And also he only started being an Atheist due to the problem of evil and suffering is even more mind boggling and makes me think that he's more of an emotional person than a logical and rational one.
most christians are like that. they dont rely on evidence and rationality. only emotions.
I know many Christians who agree that their Scripture is corrupted and contains mistakes. Or that the Trinity doesn't make sense and was a later invention. Yet, they are still Christians 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
They have shortcut to salvation … so everything else in there religion is secondary… imagine someone comes to you and tells you mate you can have a penthouse for free when you retire but all you have to do is believe my son died for your sins
Well if he shifted his mindset of a naturalistic paradigm whereby suffering exists how can that be justified in a test tube
I don’t believe so
Bart became agnostic because of his doubts about his religion but it wouldn’t sound smart to say my religion is false therefore all religions are false so he adopted the idea i am agnostic because evil exists which sound worse because it’s emotional argument
I liked Dr. Jeffrey Lang's take on the suffering issue.
He delivered two lectures on two consecutive evenings I guess at a certain university whose name eludes my mind at the moment, it was quiet helpful. you can find it here on youtube with a single search.
Purdue university it was...
here is the link
th-cam.com/video/2AvepssBwzY/w-d-xo.html
@@MAZ501 Certainly very relevant to this dialogue. Great video, Dr. Lang keeps you interested.
Thank you so much for this Paul.The ever humble Dr Brown was the star in this talk even though it wasn't a debate.May Allah SWT bless you Dr Brown immensely for clarifying faith so succinctly.
I'm searching for Dr Lawrence Brown in TH-cam now. Masha Allah
Dr Laurence Brown has (Masha’Allah) done a lot of great work. I have benefited from both his books and talks.
In my honest and personal opinion, Paul should have brought in Hamza Tzortis for this one. This was a philosophical debate, in which you need a philosopher of religion like Hamza. Dr Brown is a doctor and has a background in comparative religion. As a muslim I don’t think that many of his answers were convincing (not just for Dr. Ehrman, but I would suspect for a lot of other atheists, agnostics and others)
If the theme of the talk was about the Bible and how the Bible can lead to the Quran (or something like that) Dr. Brown would have been great. But philosophical debates is somewhat outside of his field. For example he should have mention the fitrah as ‘a proof’ we as Muslims believe in.
We have to remember, there are a lot of people watching these videos and we must bring people who can properly representation the Islamic position, lest we make our view look weak.
All in all he did a decent job and may Allah reward him immensely. As I mentioned, he has done a lot of great work.
I agree with your point. I doubt dr bart will be back on this yt channel though. He seems very satisfied with himself that God does not exist and humans can never know anything about God. Its also clear that dr bart was looking for a debate not a dialouge! Lol!
@@lilyrosesoul0077 Yes, he was definitely looking for an intense discussion 😂 I hope he will be back for discussion about the Bible though.
@@charlievaughan1308 I think from the perspective of Hamza being well versed and equipped in the philosophical side of things and as such would have presented more robust points.
I believe Dr Brown was simply on this for a jovial dialogue but Dr Ermen was there for a debate and fight.
That may possibly be down to a miscommunication about the intent of the talk by Dear Brother Paul.
Paul needs to bring on a Philosopher like Suboor Ahmad. He would have left Dr Bart Ehrman scratching his head. If there ever happens a philosophical debate bring on Subbor Ahmad.
@@charlievaughan1308 I think he would. It would be very nice debate. I wish it would happen. Take some time to relax. Your comments are everywhere :))
GREAT JOB DR. EHRMAN!
It's great to see both Dr. Erhman and Dr. Brown into one platform. I love them both!
I love how for Dr. Ehrman it's OK not to have the answers to the three most important questions of all time because well... science will figure it out in the long run (which is pure blind fate and science of the gaps) but the theist must have an answer for why there is suffering (which is a secondary issue might I add) in order for their claim to be true
100% he kept on saying God of the gaps yet he himself spilt the beans of science of the gaps lol
The God of gaps argument is ridiculous...even though there is a natural mechanism it does not really answer for or against the existence of God
Ehrman did not say that science will for sure figure it out. He said that each day science figures out more and more stuff, and so using that empirical trend he says that what happened before singularity will be also probably answered by science in the long term. Contradictory to this we don’t know more and more about Islam each day, as it’s the same as it was 1400 years ago, so it’s reasonable to assume that Islam or any other faith which is set in stone will not answer what happened before singularity. He trust the science which says it doesn’t know now, rather than religion which says it knows because of “belief” that what is written in their scripture is true. Erhman is a skeptic who wants evidence before accepting and is humble enough to acknowledge that he doesn’t know, while Brown is a believer without proof because that is what faith is after all, belief in something without proof.
@@Joseph-cf2wd therefore Ehrman is taking on the science of the gaps argument.
Humans can never fully understand what happened before the singularity however in any model a necessary being is necessary why because as we know everything within this universe is finite and you cannot have a series or chain of finite...the infinite regression problem
The whole point of Islam is to ponder about this life...did you come from nothing or did you create yourself...why are we here etx
@@Joseph-cf2wd what is the proof of axioms of science? that's where Ehrman and many others are mistaken about their own fate.
They reject all forms of knowledge that does not come from the scientific method (ie. Testimony, logic and philosophy) while simultaneously holding the science and scientific method above all else forgetting that scientific method itself heavily relies on logic and philosophy.
What I'm trying to say is that we all have fate to some extent, you might want to reject that because you don't like the word "fate" but you liking a word or don't liking it doesn't change it's definition.
@@Joseph-cf2wd secondly be pointing out the science of the gaps saying science will one day give us answers is the clear definition of faith 🤣🤣🤣🤣
So we all have faith whether theists or follow scientism
Dr. Brown is an epitome of wisdom, sobriety, reasoning, and giving examples to make things very illuminating - May Allah SWT rewards him for representing Islamic position in a profound manner. Even Dr. Bart claimed his agnostic view it seems he is more on the atheistic camp, arguing without any real reasoning that can make his case and stubbornly repeating without even respecting Dr. Brown’s explanation - his preconceived knowledge on Christianity failed him to fathom the concept of sufferings!
Thanks, Pual for hosting this discussion. I regularly follow your channel and try to learn from the knowledge you share
You LIE Like Trump! Lawrence Brown is an unreasonable human being.. FACT!!!
He is an epitome of blind faith.
One point that was missed and could have helped is that the pain and suffering is happening from our own greed. We are causing this and we are witnesses of this as a test of how to fix this. This is a blessing in disguise, this is an opportunity for us to show compassion and do the work to feed them. This is the test for the fortunate that can feed themselves. Every test for mankind is laid out in front of us. Sometimes we find cures when we have diseases. A prosthetic leg is only created when one has to lose it. Allah disguises the blessing in the tragedy. I wish Dr. Brown approached it in this manner.
Thank you for allowing this exchange Br Paul.
What's ironic for me is that at first glance, it seemed as if the Dr Brown was giving emotional reasons for why he left atheism for Islam, but later on during the debate, it sounded more as if it was Dr Ehrman who actually became atheist for emotional reasons, giving the fact that, as he himself pointed out, the problem of suffering was what led him to believe there is no God, and that is a self defeating position! Awareness and recognition of concepts such as suffering and injustice requires believing in objective justice and goodness and morality to judge with.
Anyway, as expected of Br Paul, he always brings in guest of high caliber, and this channel is worth every subscription to it. Great work!
I don't mean to offend bart but I find it somewhat amusing that the thing that got him to leave Christianity were not the rational excuses such as the blatant contradictions, historic & scientific mistakes but rather it was an irrational and emotional one, the *"Problem of evil"* .
Exactly
Many thanks Mr. Paul for a huge effort for bringing such discussion to your platform. Am sure, many brothers from known online streams may be so ready to comment or have their view shared about it. Once again, Blogging Theology has done great service for knowledge seekers.
❤️🙏
I missed this..HOW..HOW..??😭😭😭
THANK YOU BRO PAUL and DR.BROWN You did a very good Job .❤
May Allah SWT blessed you both on your good works .Ameen🤲
Subahanallah this was an enticing discussion. Thank you Paul for putting this together. We can learn from an agnostic perspective before we can begin to challenge their ‘belief’. May Allah reward Dr Brown for his efforts and Paul for initiating this.
B. Ehrman reacts quite emotionally for someone who does not believe in hell. Mankind should be blamed for suffering and hunger. How blind can one be not to realize that.
He is veiled by God , deaf dumb and blind. The veil needs to be lifted! It may never get lifted!
@@Zenigma217 actually what you said summarized Dr. Ehrman. You see, arrogance was the downfall of Satan(Quran 2:34). If you look closely you can find that same arrogance is in every educated atheist argument. What they know of knowledge is like a drop of water in a sea compared to the knowledge of the physical universe, let alone the unseen world. Yet again that blinds them and makes them proud and boastful.
Most of them you will find not to have the slightest doubt they could be wrong and they will argue to prove that is the case. To them, what they know out weights above all, and that turned them into Party of Satan AKA the arrogant ones.
And Allah does not guide the arrogant and the insincere.
“Thus does Allah set a seal over the heart of every proud, haughty one” (Quran 40:35).
Mankind for natural disasters too? Mankind when there’s a drought and people starve, which has been happening since people existed? Weak argument.
Asa
Dr Brown was not expecting a debate, but a dialogue , Dr Bart came up with emotional debating tactics, Dr Brown respectfully tried to explain we don’t have an answer for everything which Dr Bart agreed with when it suited him, but not on human suffering . It is a matter of faith , but it shows at the end the man with faith is not as agitated as the man without.
Being indifferent to injustice and suffering might not be evidence of good character, though.
Dr.Brown best, calm , and respectful,listening,truthful.sister watching from Canada.
Regardless that I disagree with dr. Ehrman in fundamental matters, he is really excellent in articulating his ideas. I really enjoy listening to him speaking.
Love and respect both scholars - doctors in their own fields.
Dear Paul, one simple message for Dr Ehrman if you can get it to him from a layman: the problem of evil teaches us a few things:
1. Do we recognise and feel the pain and suffering of another human or animal so it hurts us (as it clearly does hurt Dr Erhman)?
Teaches us Empathy and tests our capacity for feeling for others
2. Are you then thankful for what you and your dear loved ones have for you are not yourselves in that state? Gratitude.
3. What do you do about this suffering? How do you react? Get angry or get helpful?
Charity and endeavour.
Ultimately, the simple thing that this life is temporary - do you not realise that the suffering of others temporarily could easily be flipped into everlasting (eternal) joy and bliss by a merciful God?
This world is temporary - a fact observable as people like our ancestors are all dead. Their misery and their bliss ended.
So problem of evil - only a drop in the ocean and test for all. Fail it or pass it - choice is ours.
Salams. The problem with this which Bart did address during his talk was that that majority of people in the world are unbelievers. So if a lot of them are suffering whilst on Earth, it does not mean that their suffering will end at death or be in bliss afterwards, because they will suffer even more in hellfire because of their unbelief. Hence, the last two points about eternal bliss are incorrect.
Fancy platitudes is all you can give but at the end of the day only the sufferer knows what suffering is like. So who are you to talk so arrogantly with cheap platitudes ?
Another point I would like to add:
Allah taala says in Quran "I know, you know not."
part of surah 2 verse 30.
Also from surah 18 where al Khidir was given guidance from God to do things that Prophet Moses knows not, only to explain that we will never be able to have patience over the things we know not, which is Allah taala's wisdom. May Allah taala grant us patience over the things we know and the things we know not.
In the end, there are many things unknowable, which is left "ghaib" to us. May Allah taala keep us steadfast on the deen until the end.
@@Cassim125 and who are you?
@@Cassim125 apart from using some fancy words, what value have you added to this important discussion on problem of evil? Nothing - zero.
The more I listen to Bart, I realise that this man is very far from God.
He thinks he knows everything.
He seems really arrogant
@@aaliyah3037 Exactly
That's exactly his problem he thinks he knows everything but absolutely not
He also conflates knowledge with scientific knowledge. This implies that without the scientific method, we would know nothing. Not a very rational man.
This is a person who studies history for a living and here you are you people with a degree at McDonalds university thinking you can challenge himm. Lol.
Knowledge is of the world but understanding comes from our Father in heaven.
I'm so impressed how dr. Brown tries
to deal with dr. Ehrman. How he so patient eventhough dr. Ehrman continually denial every arguement that he makes. This one of the proof how muslim behave and spread the massage through wisdom and right manner, they don't easily got angry/emotional and desperate. He is good example how muslim should behave. I very proud for him, my ALLAH guide him always, ameen.. 🙏🙏
Thank you so much Sir for organizing such high end professional to discus such important topic.
Paul please moderate debates in future. Give them a stop clock for time to respond WITHOUT interruptions. Rule has to be NO INTERRUPTIONS.
Under the circumstances Dr Brown dealt with this very well.
This is not a debate but a fruitful discussion
our creator granted us intellect to read his divine words , which ordered all humanity towards charities. if every person does its duty by contributing , then there won't be any starvation at all.
Wow Paul, I cannot believe the quality of your guest. Great job and eagerly await for more. Wishing you a fantastic new year. Light , love and blessings.🇬🇧🇲🇺💐
Many thanks!
On the topic of suffering, I've never actually heard anyone use the following counter-argument, even though to me it appears as extremely logical and impossible to deny. So let's take a hypothetical argument between two people.
Person 1: How can God be All-Good is there is so and so in the world?
Person 2: So you expect perfect equity in this life?
Person 1: Not perfect equity, but the easing of sufferings, no senseless deaths, no wars, no famine, no plagues, etc.
Person 2: Even if all that were to be satisfied, the person acclimated to that hypothetical society would find injustice in smaller things, such as differences in height, differences in ability (intellectual/physical), differences in how much a person earns, differences in the places in which people are born and how those peoples differ in terms of development, and so on.
Person 1: But at least there would be no suffering.
Person 2: For a human it would be good enough, but God is Perfect, and imperfection cannot be in His creation. A life where there is no post-judgement must be a perfectly equitable life, as otherwise why would an All-Good, All-Perfect God create people who lives would be, even in the most minute way, inequitable. Indeed the only solution for a perfect being to create true equity in this life is to remove free-will, and create us as perfect equals, like blades of grass.
Person 1: But that's clearly not how the world is now, humans are different, we aren't the same, the world is fundamentally unequitable. So how can God be All-Good.
Person 2: I gave the prior argument as a preface to this one. The All-Good nature of God can be understood more easily through his attribute of being the Most-Just. God is Perfectly Omniscient, you can view this Omniscience as the following: God sees every quark or lesser, in the Universe, at it's exact location, down to the Planck length, or lesser, at every Planck time, or lesser, for all time, throughout all time. He knows everything there is to know, and more. As such, he has absolute knowledge, and is the absolute reference for everything. This allows Him to deal Absolute Justice. God is All-Good because He will offset the inequity of this world perfectly in the world to come. His will not deliver injustice to a person lesser than the weight of an atom. He knows everything, and can quantify everything. Any injustice you suffered here will be accounted for by Him. If you were born poor, born disabled, born only to be killed in war, famine, disease, cancer, murder, He will account for that, and deal with you with Perfect Justice. It is the only way to achieve true equity. What God gives to you is better than what you ask for, you ask for a lack of suffering in this world, but that cannot be possible while free-will exists. God gives you both free-will and perfect equity, there is no injustice, and God remains All-Good.
And that is why amongst the 6 major beliefs of a Muslim, one of them is the Belief in the Day of Judgement.
I heard Hamza Yusuf talking about human suffering and connecting it to a concept of free will which is given to us in this world. This is all packed in free will and children are dying from hunger because someone in that country caused it. If you expect for God to intervene every time someone does evil in this world then there would not be free will...
@@nedzadi Exactly, this whole is God good argument makes no sense when considering true equity would literally defeat the point of free will. Also people are so delusional when it comes to what part they play in "inequity" and "suffering".
I'll give three examples.
1) People talk about famine, of starvation. And yet I live on a planet in which there are simultaneous epidemics of obesity and starvation, explain that one to me. God gave us a bountiful Earth with the resources to feed all of its people well, just because people choose to accumulate and hoard food for the powerful and the wealthy isn't an indication of God's injustice, it's an indication of the corruption of man. What do these people want God to do? Smite a person every time they are being greedy? What would the point of belief be then?
2) Over half of sexual assaults, rapes, domestic violence cases and assault occur under the influence of alcohol. You know an easy way to instantly cut these crimes in half? Ban alcohol. Oh but noooooo, all these people complaining about the suffering in the world will then start complaining about their freedoms. But what would they do without alcohol, how would they drown out their sorrows, or be confident enough to talk to a person (which is something a normal person should be able to do sober anyways).
3) It is widely noted through various studies that an increasing no. of sexual partners prior to marriage corresponds directly to significantly increased risks of divorce and lower rates of perceived marital happiness. Both of these trends are linear with respect to the no. of partners, with virgins enjoying both the most stable marriages, and highest perceived marital happiness. The consequences of divorce are obvious, broken families, unstable lives, children with no role models, depression, anxiety, a societal structure that is broken at it's root. And yet everyone LOOOOOOOVVVVEEES to promote fornication, it's a harmless activity they say, its recreational, it's a pleasurable activity, what's so wrong with it? And they look at us and call us backwards. And yet God has forbidden fornication, not because He doesn't want us to feel pleasure, but because He doesn't want us to be hurt, His way is the Best way.
God has laid out a straight path, a path which minimizes pain and suffering if taken up by a society. Whether they choose to do so is their choice, and they can choose not to do so at their own peril. If I tell an rational adult not to put a blowtorch in his mouth and he does so anyways, who exactly is at fault here?
It's clear to see that people don't really care about justice, they just care about pleasure, and convenience.
@rolling, if Person 2 was a Christian, they may say that, but, a Muslim would NEVER impute injustice to Allah. Allah is just, and would NEVER create an imperfect being and expect perfection from them.
@@j2shoes288 Allah's work is perfect. But let's get this clear, Allah's work is Perfect in the sense that He creates exactly as He wants to, with no deviation from what He wants. However, none of Allah's creations are perfection itself. Only Allah is the Perfect being. We are only perfect in that we are created perfectly as we are meant to be created.
Also, what are you even arguing about, Quote what I said, either that or read it again. And if you didn't get it, read it again.
Theres a video on youtube by Yasir Qadhi on the problem of evil and suffering, its probably the BEST answer regarding this issue. He explains it beautifully. I HIGHLY encourage every muslim and non-muslim to watch it.
Why are you promoting a reformist
@@salplayer9198 his lecture on suffering is probably one of his only good works.
i dont recommend learning anything else from him.
Bart is an impatient dude
Dr Laurence you are inspirational with your immense patience.
Brother Paul thank you very extremely much for what you do for Islam, thank you Dr. Lawrence brown for staying calm and answering in a very intelligent manner, I wish Brother Paul had moderated more assertively when Dr Ehrman started interrupting, we're Muslims and al 7mdolilah most of us are strong enough in our faith to listen attentively to opposing opinions however I don't think anyone appreciates being constantly interrupted... This was supposed to be a dialogue not a debate and Dr. Ehrman turned it into a debate so I wish you'd actually set times for comments without interruptions for both parties.... I don't mean to be negative I simply wish that we actually got to enjoy the dialogue properly without interruptions..
Dr Bart Erhman is a scholar of biblical textual criticism. His opinion holds weight in this niche subfield alone. Beyond that he is a layman
And looks so ignorant as a layman
Yup‚ exactly.
May Allah bless Dr Brown and brother Paul. Ameen.
How would Dr Bart Ehrman view the Indian Ocean tsunami? In the tsunami millions of people died. As humanbeings we feel sad when these things happen. I myself experienced tsunami and i worked in the recovery work. In my country that day is recognised as the "Day of unity". Why? It brought unity among people as they were helping to find those who survived and helping those that were displaced. So many trees died due to salt intrusion, but as it recovered we found new crops started growing. In my father's home island, people could not grow mangoes even when they tried before. But after tsunami mango became one oft the most easily grown tree. It is likely some changes happened to soil composition and it grew with some seeds that came from another country with tsunami waves. Few trees grew, and with it's seed over the years many trees grew. I don't know what else to say except SubhanAllah (Glory be to God). What do we want to achieve in this world? It is to attain paradise in hereafter. “Our Lord! Give us in this world that which is good and in the Hereafter that which is good, and save us from the torment of the Fire!” (translation from Quran 2:201).
Dr. Ehrman is excellent in his field of knowledge: Critique of The Bible. But he proved to be low-grade agnostic & second-hand atheist in this interview. Good for believers 😅
I agree 100%!
Dr Bart is quite unique, whether he believes in God or not, the suffering is still happening and will always be. The fact that he still choose not to believe in God is amazing. Thinking that in the thinking of not believing in God will solve suffering issues is interesting
Accepting reality as it is and not expecting a savior other than ourselves is the whole point. When you believe things are created by a god for a purpose, or that a god will intervene to help, or that god is testing us, then you dont live life in a way with helping save humanity yourself.
@@dustinellerbe4125 there are some good points that Dr Brown made in the discussion, first there should be justice to humanity. which there is no way human themselves can achieve this. If one person killed other person and the punishment is by killing the killer, what happens to a person whom killed 2 or thousands? There must be a system which can accommodate that.
Secondly, Dr brown said that in Islam, suffering can be also purification from sins, that is part of the system.
There is things that Dr brown didn't mention though, that helping others and humanity can brings good rewards for the afterlife. So Muslims have been encouraged to do good to others.
If Dr Bart is insisting what happens to an 8 years girl whom died because starvation. In Islam, she will go to heaven because the system is only working for adults and mentally healthy. Children and crazy people are free from consequences.
The system is quite solid in Islam which that made Dr brown converted from atheism to Islam, while the system is not solid in Christianity which converted Dr Bart from Christianity to atheism.
You decide. May God always helps us find the right path.
@@1104rakhmat the system you guys want is not part of reality though. That's the problem. The suffering is real and affects real people. Hoping for justice beyond death and creating stories about it doesn't make it true. Why doesn't god create a better world, or intervene to actually help people now? Bc that god doesn't exist. The god who helps humanity doesn't exist. Why wait for an afterlife to judge or punish when it can intervene on this one life that we know exists. To make up a story and say yep, this is truth with no evidences whatsoever to back it up is ludicrous. Texts about such do not back it up. People worship books with ideas in them. That's the issue at hand.
@@dustinellerbe4125 you're right, in the in is a matter of belief. In this case I believe in the system and you are not.
I didn't say the suffering is not exist though, but whether we believe in the system or not, the suffering is still exist and ever will be.
The people whom believe in the afterlife are not automatically dreamers, although there are people who encouraged to helps others and there people who don't.
Life is always in a good balance, good and evil, happiness and sadness, day and night, etc. And for believers, it is God whom maintain it in balance.
@@1104rakhmat what balance do you see for all of those? Just curious. Maybe in your local community? But think about the whole universe.
Both gentlemen are outstanding intellectuals in their respective fields. Thanks, brother Paul, for getting them together for this amazing discussion.
Yes indeed both gentlemen are outstanding intellectuals, that is Br Paul, and Dr Brown, as for Dr Ehrman, how can you call him an intellect when his whole premise is based on nothing quantifiable!!! Please watch this stream again, and you will see what I mean.
@@life2.0beginandwin67 yup, he cut in mid conversation, makes his own assumptions. Totally ignorant for a professor.
And he says he is not interested in the religion, well, who ask you to be interested in it in the first place? Absolutely no one.
Always saying I know I know I know but when asked the fundamental stuff always answered I don't know.
Ehrman was no gentleman there.
This is such an important conversation to have... Covering all the most important questions.
dr brown is immaculate in his repose and it was a pleasure to hear his discourse on the subject and he is right suffering brings us closer to him who creates and separates the chaff from the grain to see who is grateful despite the hardships that come our way and it is true we will be recompensed in the hereafter if we are grateful here and it is temporary our hardship here and it will be there we will be compensated if we are innocent in things here
omar
i didn't expect these two will have a conversation to be honest, it is so interesting to see how emotional the other guy was being and how calm and collected Dr Brown was the entire time i guess that just reflect something i already agreed with, very interesting discussion thx for paul to provide these two gentlemen a platform
It's funny how morality outside the boundaries of your own sect is routinely dismissed as "emotional". Religion has made you morally stunted.
@Mosaab نعم هو *"you don't speak of morality if you're atheist"*
I just did, didn't I? And all atheists do. So stick your head out of your sectarian information bubble and smell the coffée.
*"so you can't judge what's moral or not"*
Watch me.
*"because it's only subjective and you don't believe in objective morality anyway"*
So what? You base your morality on a 7th century sectarian hoax. I based my morality on universal modern philosophy. Both systems are man-made.
*"the other guy got frustrated and kept interrupting"*
Because of a strong sense of morality and the opponent's preaching.
*"simply if the Muslim in the conversation did what he did started raising his voice and interrupting , YOU would have called him emotional and even worse things"*
No. I might have said he behaved badly if I thought he was, but I wouldn't say "emotional".
Bart seems more angry than reasonable. He has mentioned starving children multiple times but hasn't been able to wonder why matter in motion cares about about other matter in motion. Its an absurd concept.
lol so true
Thanks Paul for hosting such prestigious guests, Much love to Dr. Laurence and Dr. Ehrman. The latter was interrupting Dr. Laurence quite often in this debate which is oddly not his habit in previous debates that i saw of him. Bless you all anyway
PS: answering the suffering topic, our sufferings is man made. refugees suffering from the dictator regimes, the poor suffers from the lack of charity on the rich behalf, third world countries suffer from ex-colonial countries and so on. Dr. needs to see the whole truth. Africa is a good land then why can't African nations reach the minimum food security, well it's the the earlier reasons all together.... Human greed and power thirst that's where human suffering comes from, Dear Dr. Ehrman
If Science doesn't answer how neurons work and how singularity was made then the ONE who created Adam and the universe surely can
1:06:27 "And recall when your Lord proclaimed, ‘If you give thanks, I will indeed increase you; but if you deny, then indeed My punishment is severe.’”
Quran, 7:14
When we give thanks for what we have, we condition ourselves to be aware of our state. We will count our blessings and are aware of what we have and then the worry of the things that we don't have or what we have lost won't be so overwhelming.
It allows us to have the state of mind that is always ready to move to the next journey, the next challenge or the next endeavour, to not give up and feel that we have less than others or we have nothing.
It is a mindset of "Thank God I have this" and we will feel at ease and clear-minded, thus being ready to give back to others who do not have what we have. It is a complete system.
A note to self.
I would like to share a recent interview I watched of Hamza Yusuf when the pandemic just happened.
It was very enlightening.
He pointed out that children do not concern themselves with the question of God. They submit to their circumstances. The only people who put these questions are adults like Bart Ehrman who THINKS these kids are having issues of theology when they just submit to their conditions.
As human beings, personally, I believe that when I witness or myself experience suffering, it manifests something in my mind to conjure up love for others, sympathy, helping others and teamwork.
And that is what God created for us too.
Hamza Yusuf mentioned the many attributes of God too but sometimes we are just too focused on one.
I remember Hamza Yusuf mentioned that human suffering is part of the free will concept/package. If you expect God to relieve suffering every time then he should break your arm when you cheated on your taxes or lied to your wife....
Amazing scholars discussing amazing topic. Tq Paul for making this happens on your blog. Good to see Bart finally being here also.
Brother Paul
On this kind of talks it would be a good idea to invite brother shabir yusuf
Professor Bart should know that God will never punish some body who has never been informed about the truth. This person will receive the message the day of judgement and be tested. God knows what we don't know and He is the infinitly Wise
The issue with Bart, a well educated Christian scholar shows how Christianity doesn’t have answers for many problems. The more you understand Christianity with an open mind the doubtful it becomes,the exact opposite of Islam.
In Dr Lawrence Brown view suffering happens but god will compensate in the other world....
In dr Bart Ehrman view suffering happens and nothing can be done....
Wich view gives hope ?
@@charlievaughan1308
The suffering will always exist and there are people you can never help and there are criminals that will just go away with their crimes....
Firstly thanks very much Paul and to the esteemed guests. A few notes:
- Denying God because of suffering is emotional, and psychological, we do this because we can't fathom a loving God that can allow suffering. But that's using OUR metric of suffering, of pain, of vissicitudinous existentialism. Eternal life completely changes this discussion, as we know, a man who suffered all his life will forget all the luxuries and riches of his world life, however kingly or extravagantly he was treated.
- More, is that we know how effort, struggle and dopamine works - the more the struggle, the sweeter the reward. The more the luxury, the less the meaning, existence as a dependent creature is necessitated by struggle, toil etc.
- As for Dr Ehrman's claims of evangelising. Of course Dr Brown was evangelising, so was Dr Ehrman! We all want our views to be taken in board by others, let's not prejudice or demonise this natural aptitude when it's traditionally religious or monotheistic. Atheists can be some of the most rabid evangelisers, hence the thousands if not more twitter and TH-cam accounts battling the assumed scourge of creationism and religion.
- The conversation was good but it didn't go beyond a basic level, the basic tuggle between theist and atheist. Would love to have Dr Ehrman back to get stuck in with the NT or perhaps in dialogue with the impressive Dr Ali Ataie. God bless you all.
Bravo, Dr. Ehrman. You make your position very clear and succinct. Thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. I believe diversity in opinion and faith should be respected. Faith is faith. Faith doesn't make something true. But it has value to the believer, so I respect that. Learned some things about Islam from hearing Dr. Brown as well. I have always enjoyed the study of world religions and ethics. I didn't know much about the atheist/agnostic perspectives, so I decided to learn more about that particular point of view. Thank you.
Dr brown , u have the calmness of a knowing person
Calmness & silence after caught truth
Happy for u , God bless ur days amen 🤲🏻🌺🌺
Thnx Paul , God bless ur days too 🤲🏻🌺🌺
Dr Brown looks like not on same frequency with Dr Ehrman when discussing about suffering. I think best person to me when discussing suffering is Sheikh Hamza Yusuf. I watch a video of him explaining suffering in a short, logical and beautiful way. He can talk about Islam just by using logic. Hope it happens!
Essalamu aleykum. What a surprise ! Dr Bart Ehrman on your show !!! May Allah (swt) guide him to the Truth.
Wa alaikumussalaam
Jazakallah Bro Paul, had invited both of them in your Blogs, respect for both of them...especially Dr Brown, being watch many of his early video his journey to Islam.
Dr. Brown led this by example, coherent arguments and fine conduct. One can strongly sense Dr. Bart's acceptance of the existence of God inherent in his tantrum-like response to suffering. His problem is neither the existence of God nor suffering. If he truly rejected God then he won't need the antics. His rage against suffering coupled with his willful blindness of the good generated by suffering and it's sifting function, make me doubt that he doesn't believe in the existence of God. In my estimation, it's more a deficit in humility and an attempt to challenge God. May Allah safeguard us.