Mike, thanks for all the work you've down with the Behmor for us. It has certainly helped me as I've been learning to roast. I still maintain that A temperatures are super important to monitor, at least with the 2000AB+. Secondly, I plotted my A and B temperatures from a wonderful accidental roast I made in December and have been trying to duplicate ever since. Then after looking at what Scott Rao has to say about RoR, I also plotted a recent roast and found that all my current roasts had too high a RoR. So I adjusted my roast profile to lower the RoR and got my wonderful cup again! Breaking almost every rule that everyone was telling me, I actually dropped the power just before the fan kicks on and let my B temperature FALL to about 240°F, then go back to P5. This has the effect of slowing the RoR, letting the beans spend a little more development time in the lower roasting temperatures. Before my decaf was just racing through the roast. Now I'm giving it time to develop other flavours that come out earlier in the development.
Thanks for your comment Larry. I would love to see your roast Dara you recorded both a and b temps with the times. Can you send that to me? Go to the about tab here on the channel and scroll down to find the link to send it. Thanks!
Thanks for the video, Mike. I think there appears to be a misconception with the temperatures. Another TH-camr(he installed actual probes of his own to be able to prove this) explained that the temperatures change because of the position of the probes so when the fan kicks in one of probes (B) appears to lose temperature however the roaster itself isn't necessarily losing that much temperature. I personally use the B temperature until the fan kicks in then I use the A one afterwards. I use the 400g/1lb button to warm up the roaster as much as possible or according to the bean's charge temperature requirements then I turn off the roaster, put the drum in, and use the 200g/0.5lb button to roast my 300g batches. I also use an actual fan and 6 stainless steel colanders(helps dissipate the heat) to be able to fully cool the beans as quickly as possible which usually takes me around 3.5-4.5minutes. By passing the beans from one colander to another I also get rid of all the chaff although it makes a lot of mess in the end. Planning to upgrade to an Arlio Bullet this year though as the Behmor is just too time consuming for me (I consume around 2kg of coffee a month).
I also have a probe installed and using this and artisan software you see the huge drop in temp when the fan kicks in. That said this is now just part of my roast.
@hp and @ A Smith - Thanks for sharing your personal experience with the Behmor. I have said in my videos I use the B temp and many have told me to use the A once the fan kicks on. Truthfully, i have done this a couple of times and it was a little ocnfusuing for me Because I had no real reference to where I was before the fan. The numbers are completely different. One other huge factor in all of this, which i didn't mention in the video are the heating elements. They act as a "Broiler" of sorts. Think about that radiant heat burning against the outside of the bean. So, while my roaster was cooling (or appeared to be cooling) and I set it on P4, that intense radiant heat was shining directly on the beans. Not sure how we can measure that but I am pretty sure it has an impact. I would love to hear your thoughts on this All temperatures aside for this past roast, I did hit my target events which means my heat management was successful. The end result wasn't exciting but I sure learned a lot from the experience.
I am one of those recommending following the "A" temperature as well once the fan kicks in. I've noticed that the "B" temperature can actually drop while the "A" temperature continues to increase. I've also noticed a VERY consistent pattern in my Behmor that once the A temperature reaches 335-340, 1st crack begins. 2nd crack almost always begins just above A = 360. There is no correlation to 1st and 2nd crack with the B temperature. This seems more important when roasting decaf beans because they are more sensitive to heat. However, my afterburner just quit on my 4 month old Behmor. I noticed this when the A temperature suddenly dropped. I've got a replacement arriving today, so I'll see if a replacement afterburner changes my 1st and 2nd crack target A temperatures. I'm not sure why the afterburner quit so soon. Perhaps it is because I preheat to 230 or even 240F, or if it is because a few times I shut the roaster off to remove the beans, then turned it back on to cool, like Mike did. Or, I may have had a "weak" afterburner. We'll see how the next one lasts. I hope I don't have to keep replacing afterburners, or even elements, every 4-6 months.
@@larryb51 Thanks for your insights. I've had my Behmor since 2017 and only had to replace my afterburner in 2020 which has been fine since. I've also been roasting manually since 2020 as I came across this channel whereas before it was always on automatic. 1s and 2nd crack timing/temperature will vary depending on a number of variables rather on a set temperature as you suggested. I sometimes preheat it to 164 degrees Celsius(I am in Australia) as the limit is 165. I also cool the beans outside the Behmor. I don't think those factors will influence on the lifespan of the afterburner.
It's good to know I'm not the only "rule breaker" when it comes to roasting with the Behmor. The longer I've used it and hear/read the experiences of other Behmor users, it seems like rules HAVE to be broken to get a good roast out of it. I too do a thorough preheat and pull the drum out for cooling (but always restart the cooling cycle). I think the only difference between our machines is that my PCB and drum motor matches what comes in the 2000AB Plus (motor speeds are 16/32 RPM instead of 8/16), and the thermal cutoff for safety is different as well. I've never had to do the "temperature surfing" as I've read about on forums to avoid shutdowns, thankfully. I'm at a point where I'm getting consistently solid coffee out of the Behmor despite its quirks, but I am also looking forward to getting a Hottop 2K+ once I've finished out my current roast log book for my Behmor. Thanks as always for your content and insight!
Thanks for watching Dustin. What is your typical total roast time on the Behmor? Also, just wondering why you picked the Hottop as your next roaster? Just curious...
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I’m picking the Hottop because I don’t really have a good way to be able to use a gas roasting setup at home. Plus, I’m already used to working with a radiant electric heat source like the Behmor, so I’m thinking there will probably be some similarities there. Aside from that, my main draw toward the Hottop was being able to use Artisan for data/consistency without much additional set up or having to worry about things like installing thermocouples or a Phidget. Also, having an immediate, adjustable control over airflow was a big advantage over the Behmor.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab As to times on the Behmor, most of my roasts usually fall in the 11-12 minute range depending on how much development I’m aiming for. I typically hit first crack around 8-9 minutes, and with most of the coffees I roast, crack lasts for about a minute and a half before it tapers off and ends. I’m mostly sticking to washed Central and South American coffees and tend to like those coffees with a bit of development to bring out body and those deeper tones of chocolate/roasted nuts/molasses etc.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I had considered the Bullet at first, but it costs MUCH more than the HotTop, and honestly, the max batch size on the Bullet is probably overkill for my needs - I usually go through about half a pound of coffee within 7-10 days, and the recommended batch size for the HotTop is about half a pound. There are indeed different versions of the HotTop - the "basic" version (aka the 2K, no USB port for Artisan connection, complete manual control) and the 2K+, which allows for a connection to Artisan (both for logging and controlling the roaster) and is also programmable to save previous profiles.
the onset of the fan can be delayed by selecting 1# load size, and if you want to manually start the fan before it kicks in, the C button will do that. and the C button can be pressed again and again to keep it from entering cool mode before you are ready. i think you know all of this though. i really think it's tough to get a bright cup from a behmor, even when preheating and then pulling the drum for faster cooling.
Hi Paul. I think I definitely agree with you on it being difficult to get a bright taste from the Behmor. I have been trying to do that with mine for more than a year now, and after roasting 66 roasts of more than 20 different kinds of coffee, with all kinds of profiles, and using all kinds of techniques and tricks, I have not yet been able to reliably get a decent light and bright roast. I now am transitioning to the Aillio Bullet, but will always wonder if there is something that could be done to achieve that brightness in the Behmor.
Yea, I think the 1 lb setting has the fan go on at 7 minutes or something like that. So, someone else commented that the fan doesn't lower temperatures that much. The fan can be helpful, as it was here, to slow my roast down after dry. That is something i didn't mention but was an important point. I have roasted some bright coffee with the Behmor Paul, but I think you are right, it is tough because by it's design, the behmor is a slower roaster. Thanks for the comment Paul, I think you know more about the Behmor than I do. I'll keep you on my short list when I need help with the roaster bro. ;-)
Thanks for sharing! Wow! I just realized that I have been roasting a washed Ethiopian Sidamo Keramo coffee as well. I'm thinking it's from a different farm however. I roasted a VERY nice batch just yesterday in the Sandbox Smart r1 roaster. It's very sweet and has an amazing lemongrass flavor. It's tasting like a medium light coffee blended with a sweetened pure lemongrass tea. Very nice. 1st Crack at 9:46. End time 10:57.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab From your description of your tasting notes, it seems to me that your first roast was the more complex and nuanced. Sounds tasty to me!
@@GoTellJesusSaves Hello, sir. I just got my Sandbox R1 for 2 weeks and still struggling with it to get good roasts. Many of the roasts were tipping. Others tasted dull. Would you mind sharing your successful profile? It could help me a lotttt. If so, it's under [Mine] > [select your profile] > [share button on the top-right corner] > [SNS sharing]. The profile code is in the square bracket. Thank you in advance!
@@kittisiri Hi there! I understand that. I had the same issue with a couple distended coffees I've roasted. What I did to combat it was to start with a lower power setting then ramp up at a rate of every 10-20 seconds (depending on the coffee and whether I will use the coffee for espresso or filter. So starting at 10 power, @10seconds up to 20, @20sec up to 30, etc. until reaching the desired roast temp. Also keeping the fan speed low in the beginning. I'll see if I can figure out sharing... never done it before.
@@kittisiri This profile is for a fairly small bean, natural processed Ethiopian coffee. Medium light roast. Your outcome will depend greatly on the type of coffee used. But overall, using the ramp up in temp will help mitigate tipping. Also... I'm not sure if you have previous experience with that specific coffee you're using, but if you find it tipping even at low temps, it's probably due to the coffee itself having weak composition. I have some coffees that have been nearly impossible to cause tipping with. While others have been nearly impossible to keep from tipping.
Mike, that hollow note is due to the temperature drop. I avoid this by heating everything including the drum, starting with max time, hitting 325 right when the vent opens and fan turns on. THEN, I put the coffee in the Behmor and run it manually to achieve my desired profile. I can get a 5 minute total roast time (not recommended) if I want to.
Hi Febo, thanks for sharing how you charge and roast the shorter roast times and your comment about the temperature drop. It seems like it is pretty much unavoidable with the behmor but I'm thinking the woody note could also be from a shorter development percentage taking place within a shorter total roast time. If this was a longer roast, the woody most likely would not have happened with my 15-16% development. At least that is the way I'm looking at this. I'm thinking the "broiler" affect from the Behmor (possibly during that temperature drop) may have helped influenced that roast. But you could be right. I know scott rao talks about this in his books. You saw I was at 324 at the three minute and fifty second mark on my roast, I coasted for about 30 seconds to get the temp down a little (down to 315) and then hit P4 about 20 seconds before the fan kicked on. So I was 10 degrees cooler than what you are saying. Do you think that would have caused that? In hind site, the temp drop helped me slow my roast so I wouldn't fly through first crack and have a short browning phase.... Hmmm lots to think about here. Thoughts?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Mike, I agree there are multiple things going on: the temperature drop leads to a flat, hollow taste, while the woody notes are likely due to the shorter roast time. I do an initial warm-up to 190 degrees. Then, after an on-off cycle, it's 100% for max. time (25:30) with empty drum -- this brings it to 325+ by the time the fan activates at 18:00 -- plenty of time left for any roast! Take out the pre-warmed drum, add beans, roast. I turn up the drum speed when I get to FC, it acts like increased air flow. Give it a try!
Febo, are you installing the drum an loading the beans while the roaster is on? And your charge temp is near 325? Wow, so how are you avoiding the fan issue?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I do a “warm-up” roast with the chaff tray and drum in the roaster - the empty drum does not need to rotate, so I just set it inside along with the chaff tray. I let this run until the temperature is 185-195 degrees - at that temperature, during the “actual” roast, the termperature will be hitting 315-325 degrees right around when the fan turns on. At the end of the “warm-up” roast, I cycle the roaster off and on, set it for the maximum time of 25:30, and start it on manual P5 (=100% power). At 18:00, the fan will activate and the vent opens - the temperature will drop now; however, it doesn’t matter because the beans are not even in the roaster yet. By the time, the beans are at a critical point in the roast, the temperature will have stabilized - thus, the fan is no longer a problem! Anyway, now is the time to get the drum out, fill it with beans, and load it into the roaster - all without turning off the roaster! This takes a bit of practice, but you just let the bolt slide into the moving rotor, and the other side will connect easily. The next problem is temperature regulation. Initially, it is still set on manual P5 (=100% power), but this may be too much power depending on the bean mass. On manual mode, P4=75%, but it doesn’t just lower the wattage, it cycles the heating element on 15 seconds and off 5 seconds, and this leads to temperature fluctuations and is not very precise. The ROR will drop off too quickly at P4, so instead I just toggle between 100% (P5) and 0% (P1). Starting at +60 seconds after the roast, I toggle to 0% (P1) for two seconds, then back to to 100% (P5) every 10 seconds. This gives you about 80% power. Yes, I have measured the temperatures with a separate probe and charted my ROR, etc. but it doesn’t really matter once you are hitting your target times and getting a satisfactory roast. I ended up with my toggling method to achieve the correct ROR profile. This leads to a roast that is roughly equal time spent in the first two phases. The bean mass also determines the roasting speed. 250 g (1/2 lb.) = 10 min to FC. It’s roughly 1 gram = 1 second, so dropping to 200 g = 8 minutes to FC. I just keep toggling back and forth every 10 seconds, until I get near first crack, at which point, I increase the drum speed, which acts like increased air flow, to stretch the roast. Then, just keep going until you’re done. I also like to do a “soak” - I let the beans warm up a little while in the drum in the roaster initially, during the "warm up roast", and just set the beans on a aluminum tray on top of the roaster after that to let them get a little warm - this helps convert tartness into juicy acidity. It has also been my experience with this, that you may need to end the roast earlier in development to preserve floral notes, but this is a matter of preference. However, with this method, my roasts are as good as anything I can buy from a speciality roaster. It only took me 12 years of experimenting with the Behmor to get here!
Thanks again for sharing Febo. You are very familiar with your roaster capabilities. I appreciate you including the detailed process you use for your entire roast.
I posted a question here, but I guess it didn't save, so I'll post it again. How do you explain the big difference between the results of roasting on three different roasters when you were trying to achieve the "same" profile. Of course you can't achieve exactly the same roast, but that the resulting coffee taste is so vastly different is beyond my comprehension. Thank you for your opinion! Pavel
Great question Paul. I think the two biggies were phase percentages and total roast time. I got the total roast time on the Drum roaster but not the percentages I got the phase percentages on the hive but not the total roast time I got both the phases and total roast time on the Behmor. So essentially we had 3 different roasts. They were not the same and that is why they tasted different. This video presented one challenge that all home coffee roasters have and that is to control their roast and be able to replicate it. That was what I was attempting to do. With all of my videos, I reveal my challenges as well as my successes. I was trying to compare the three roasts and the glaring reality was I didn't roast them exactly the same way. That was my failure. BUT, the third time is the charm and I accomplished what I had set out to do and that was to nail the total roast time and phase percentages I was attempting to do from the beginning..... Haa, I got a little carried away there Paul. The short answer is they tasted differently because they were totally different roast profiles. Did that help answer your question. Feel free to clarify or ask more about this. I hope I understood your question correctly. :-)
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you for your time and effort with my question. I understand but still I am amazed how relatively small differences in the roasting procedure make such a big difference. I will be looking forward to more of your videos! Pavel
Love this - I was not out of my mind. The Behmor would drive me nuts - only with this one point - repeatable. Once I got a Columbian - just wonderful - I couldnt get it the same next time. Watching you do this - lets see - tilt it back, preheat, drop and charge, then pull and dump - no imagine - what was the air temp during these events - as cold air races in opening the door etc. etc. MY POINT is - there are “rigged” ideas - but it really isnt a repeatable roasting machine. I bought 5lbs of green from Sweet Maria - and I bet at least 1/3 if not 1/2 went to experimenting and then attempting to repeat it. Sorry - NO. Years ago when I had one - and was confused - I went to a specialty local roaster - he laughed - be glad you got a good roast at least once - he said - your problem is the roaster. We repeat our profiles per our coffees easily or we wouldnt be in business. THANKS for reminding me.
I think you have made a good point Stew. There is a huge difference between a Behmor and a large drum roaster OR a device that controls every aspect of the roast. The Behmor can give a repeatable result but not as easily as a larger unit with more coffee mass and hot metal to maintain temperatures. I am able to roast the same roast over and over on a Behmor, BUT on this coffee, I was trying to do something the behmor is known for not being able to do..... a shorter roast time. Yes, I agree, larger roaster, more mass, slower changes in the roast temperatures, all of this helps repeatability. Thanks for sharing your comments Stew. What are you roasting with? I think I ask you on a previous video.... Was the the Bullet?
I've owned a Behmor and then an Aillio Bullet, to be completely honest the Aillio was almost more frustrating. The Behmor being a one trick pony actually produced some decent coffees fairly easily, BUT with limited control and some finagling. The Bullet though was frustratingly difficult to master, even though it touts all of the same features as a production roaster, it's also difficult to roast consistent batches due to its low thermal mass. It took many many roasts and dumped batches to start to understand the machine and what I was doing wrong/right. But all of that said, I've had terrible coffee come off of a Loring from a newbie local roaster. So to be honest the issue with any roaster is likely more the operator, the quality of the greens, then the device and in that exact order. Roasting coffee is likely one of the most finicky culinary endeavours one can venture down, IF you're truly looking to get the most from your greens.
I have seen the propped up front technique, but a piece of 2X4 makes a more stable base than the Legos :) I Think I will give this a try and see how it affects the roast.
I was trying to appeal to the Lego fans out there ;-) Yea, I didn't make up that front leg elevation trick. I have read of other Behmor people giving that a try. Let me know how it works for you. Thanks for watching!
When you said you had made some mods I was hoping this would be installation of a temperature probe. I was only able to attain repeatability when using a probe and artisan software. IMHO, without these it’s flying blind. I am very happy with my roasts and am always within the 50:30:20 ballpark.
I SO MUCH agree with your comments regarding a temp probe and flying blind. I know of a guy on TH-cam who did instal a true bean probe. It wasn't pretty, and his method could have long-term operational issues. But, it did allow the Behmor to sort of be used more like a real drum roaster.
Yea, the 50/30/20 is a great starting point. How long is your total roast time and what type of coffee are you usually roasting with those phase percentages? Where did you install your probe? Are you using the Sweet Marias probe and instructions?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I should have said above that I did NOT make the mods to install a bean temp probe in the Behmor. I wrote to the guy asking if he could show me data that corresponds bean probe temperature to "B temps" and "A temps", and he said he would, but he never got back to me. :-(
hello～ Glad to meet this good learning video。There's a question：Preheat 250 degrees，Is it Fahrenheit or Celsius？I look forward to receiving your reply. Thank you
Hello Arwen, 250 Fahrenheit. When watching the video you will see the callout temperatures and I show both Fahrenheit and Celsius. Watch the video here at 6:21 and you will see I pre-heated to 250 but by the time I put the coffee in the roaster and started the roast, the temp went down a little to 241 f / 116.1c .
Hi Mike, I'm a beginner with the Behmor and I do half lb batches. I preheat for about two minutes but I haven't been slowing down the middle by dropping the temperature. I let it get up to 400. is that too hot?
Hi Bill, congrats on the Behmor. The short answer is yes in my opinion. You should do an experiment and compare that roast with one that allows the temps to slowly go down. What this does is gibes more time for the coffee to roast during the middle phase (browning), allowing the reactions to take place. Be sure to watch all of my behmor videos ( I have a playlist just for behmores.). In those videos I talk about and the phase percentages. You should also watch my video called 3 tips for new home coffee roasters. This explains the 3 phases of the coffee roasting process. That will be really helpful. Thanks for watching and subscribe if you haven’t already. Thanks Bill!
I have the new Behmor 2000 AB Plus. I just did two one pound batches two days in a row, and I'm having some issues. I want to pose the question for you, as well as any other Behmor users. I'm preheating, I start with 100% heat and the fast drum speed. It is taking a super long time to reach first crack, and it's very strange ... By the time first crack happens with a full pound, the beans are already extremely dark, there is a lot of scorching, and even a carbon flavor in the brew. I can't see any way to avoid this. 15-19 minute roasts, and the color I want arrives way sooner than first crack, so I can't stop the roast ... I do use an external cooler, as well. Is the Behmor just not good for a pound even though the company says it can do it? Please advise.
Hi Michael, thanks for watching My video and for sharing your experience. There are quite a few questions I have about your roast but let me first just say your suspicions are correct. The 1 lb of greens is too much to have a successful roast in under 12’or 13 minutes without creating roasting defects and essentially burning the outside of the beans. The heating elements glow orange and shower intense infrared light onto the beans. It’s like giving sunburn to the beans. I’m sure I will have some fellow roasters disagree with me about this. The better approach would be to roast 1/2 lb. I have a few behmor roasting videos you should consider watching. Watch what I do and more importantly WHY I do it. If you try and repeat/replicate my roast there will be some differences BUT, understanding why I am doing what I do with these roasts should help you get close enough to to repeat and then after some confidence, experiment a little. A goal for all roasts is to have an even roast. Cracking open a roasted bean should reveal an evenly roasted bean not one that is lighter or green Ben darker in the middle. Was that helpful? Let me know if you need further clarification. As far as my questions about your roast, are you using the auto profiles or manual mode? Are you documenting your times and temps and aware of roasting events and phase percentages?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I appreciate your reply! A little background ... I've been home roasting since 2017 on my stovetop in the heavy duty stainless popcorn popper from the Sweet Maria's kit. Since then, I've honed my roasting to phenomenal results. Recently, a few things happened. First, I just kind of got sick of spinning the darned popper manually. I end up dancing around, trying to keep my back and legs from getting too tired, etc. Fun, but five years of it might be enough. 😁 Second, my wife and I got to talking about the next phase of our lives, the changing employment climate, etc. and decided to dip our toe in the coffee roasting business arena. I researched a bunch of options, and the only one I found that "can roast one pound" and was relatively inexpensive was the Behmor. Two things have immediately disappointed me...first, waiting an hour between roasts?!?!? Second, one pound roasts are so far inferior to coffee I roast manually on my stove top. These two things have put a damper on trying to try selling coffee using this machine. Could you imagine? Anyway, I have a 2kg drum roaster being manufactured for me, but that won't be here for months and we wanted to start gearing up the business while we waited. I'm sorry if none of that is really relevant to this particular issue. I hope you don't mind. 😊 To answer your question, I am roasting manually. I honestly got a lot of my confidence crushed when I kept burning my coffee, but I think I really have to blame it on the machine at this point. I am absolutely a Behmor noob, but there is a lot of pitfalls that I'm unsure have a solution. A couple of other bits...I'm preheating, I have gloves, and I also have an external cooler, so I am also cooling in my external cooler immediately after the roast. It's just the roasting of a whole pound that's throwing me off. It feels a lot like false advertising. I am sure I can learn a lot more from watching your videos and testing your methods. I know you have the Mill City roaster, as well, so I'm sure you can attest to how fantastically different the Behmor is from how the pros roast coffee. You live, you learn.
So, I went back to another 1 lb. Roast tonight after really thinking through the variables, and I achieved FC at 12:30 and Drop at 14 minutes for a nice medium light roast. 14.4% weight loss making final weight 13.7 oz. For anyone interested, I preheated to 250 degrees, added the beans at 100% heat with drum speed on high. I rode this temp and speed setting all the way to FC. I knew the machine forces the fan on, which brought more airflow but also dropped temp, so you do not want to ease up your temp setting until you reach FC. Then I threw it into 25% heat and cracked the door. Yellow was reached at 5:30. I used the machine's quirks and that really changed my outcome.
Michael, don't kick yourself too hard. The behmor has got a lot of people into the coffee business. As a matter of fact, I did a video with a friend who owns a very successful coffee shop. He started out on a behmor and used it for a couple of years before making the jump. So, it can work BUT your doing a lot of roasts to produce. One of the "mysteries" of the Behmor is the way it is heating the roaster. I believe that because of the "cage like" drum, the infrared light (kind of like a broiler) can roast the outside of the beans. Yes, the heat it generates is also roasting the whole bean but I can't ignore the effects of the orange light. I will have a video on that soon. To keep your business goals in line, I would go back to the old system and take turns with your wife. You will both build some muscle mass (which is a good thing). Sorry I can't be more helpful. I would not have advised you to buy the Behmor if I knew you needed to roast a pound at a time. Sorry about that. Have you don't your market research for selling specialty coffee in your area?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks for the reply! I definitely knew what I was buying when I bought it. I thought to myself that something was better than nothing, but I wasn't aware of the long wait time between roasts until I read the manual. It was the only machine in that had a good batch size to cost to features ratio. I don't mind roasting a pound at a time on demand, but the wait kills it for me. No big deal ... I'll focus more on the foundational business and branding stuff and my 2 kg machine will be here soon enough. I am a web developer and marketer by trade, so my plan is to focus heavily on online sales, with local support. We have some great festivals, markets, and special vendor events around my area that I'll be taking advantage of. We could potentially pull in a massive profit on those days and weekends. My city has one coffee roastery. She roasts on vintage peanut roasters by touch. It's okay coffee, and the locals seem to like it, but it's not phenomenal. We have a handful of cafes, as well. I have several "big" cities within 30-40 minutes of my location in all directions. I have a huge local grocery store that loves giving local farms and businesses the opportunity to feature their products. Additionally, I live in a major resort area, with at least 5-6 resorts and a casino within driving distance from my home. The local foodie scene is also growing in my area. I will take your advice and go slow and gradually build on the foundation. Thanks again for the input.
Joe, I'm thinking a longer roast time. That woody note may have been the lower development percentage in combination with that shorter roast time. If the roast time was longer (like nine minutes and thirty seconds) then that may have made the difference. Not sure about that. I would have to give it another go. I'm thinking of going back to the drum roaster and giving it another try.
I think the roast was just "rushed." Each of the phases seemed to move pretty fast and there was definitely a lack of development time. I'd be interested to see the adjustments you made and how they impacted the flavor.
Yea, I agree. I learned that the same coffee we roast using different roasting machines may require a different profile to get similar results. So, in the case of the Behmor and this Ethiopian washed Sidama I think a longer total roast time and a slightly shorter middle phase might have improved the roast. The biggest problem was it didn't have any real defining characteristics. This could have been because of the shorter total roast time OR the middle phase. The Behmor doesn't have the same level of air movement as my drum roaster. Air helps promote the roasting process so a longer total roast time seems to make sense. Are you roasting on the Behmor? Have you roasted an ethiopian to maximize origin flavor, keeping it in the medium to medium light side of roast level? What does your profile look like? Thanks for watching, sharing and for being a subscriber!
I roast with a Hottop and I’m trying to figure out a charge temp that gets my dry phase between 4-5 minutes as to maintain the uniqueness of the origin (according to a Mill City video I’ve seen) I find that’s around 340 bean temp. The issue I see is that I do see some scorching. Would you prefer a longer dry time to avoid to roast defect? I think I could do less than the manufacturer 250g of coffee but to be honest I haven’t seen too much of a difference when roasting 200g. Last question - do you start timing at the turning point? That is what I do since artisan does that.
Hi Alec, what version of the Hottop do you have? What type of coffee you are roasting. What is the process and density. As far as scorching, are you able to increase your drum speed? If yes, then give that a try. Sounds like the setup you have with artisan might need some adjusting when it comes to monitoring your roast times and events. When you click charge button IN ARTISAN, it should display the trending line for bean temp. OR you are talking about the ROR line? The ROR (Rate of Rise) line appears after turning point. Please clarify what you mean. Our roast starts at charge (when the beans enter the roaster) and all events are times from that point.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I have the KN-8828B-2K+ so I can't increase drum speed. I am roasting all kinds of coffee usually get 5 lb bags and alternate occasionally through them. The one that prompted this conversation is the Guatemala Acatenango Gesha from Sweet Marias. I have relied on the automatic Charge and TP detection in Artisan. You're right that time 0 is at charge in Artisan. I guess the one time I have been using is the projected amount of time from TP to get to dry and FC. I still use my LED lamp and visuals but also that projection to know if I should change my heat and air. Currently I have stopped soaking the beans (I'd love a video explaining why people soak the beans) so that I can keep applying heat to the roaster to try and get through dry faster. It always takes between 5-6 minutes even with a higher charge temp like 340 degrees. Dry is the hardest target to hit, I am pretty in control of browning and development. Thanks for taking the time to interact. My roasts have become much better since learning from you!
Alec, the Hottop is a great roaster but it is a little slow in the dry phase. There will be a limit where your charge temp will cause roast defects. This will vary from bean to bean. Turning point is your friend as it provides a huge nugget about your roast momentum. Compare TP temps and times when you change your charge temp AND when you change the power setting on your roaster during the first 2 minutes of the roast. Those changes will be reflected in your TP. More energy, higher charge temp = shorter TP time with a higher TP temp. So, for me, I calculate my total roast time from Charge till Drop. That is the norm. Yes, this will lengthen your dry phase but that is ok. Getting a dry time past 5 minutes is not a problem, just focus on the phase percentages within the roast. There are creative ways to help promote a shorter dry phase like prewarming the roaster at a higher temp, prewarming the roaster for a longer period of time, lowering your airflow (if you have it set too high), increase your power setting during dry.
Mike, first I just wanted to say I have learned a lot from your videos. I did have a question. I sent you a message on Facebook messenger but I don’t know if you ever check that so I figured I would post it here too. I just bought a Behmour 2000ab, and no matter what I do my roasts always have an ashy quality to them. I have noticed that the beans seem crunchier or harder when I grind them versus coffee I purchase from different roasters. I have also noticed that the beans I roast don’t give off a lot of CO2 when stored in a bag, even after sitting for a few days, but after grinding and adding water to them, the beans release a lot of CO2 and have a very vigorous bloom. This is happened to every bean that I have roasted so far. I have tried varying my charge temperature, my development time, and have tried to compensate for the cooldown period by cooling sooner and also removing the drum outright. Any advice you could give would be very much appreciated.
Hi Zac, thanks for your message. Yea, I was taking a break this weekend from social media, sorry about that. Congrats on the Behmor. It will bring you many years of frustration and joy at the same time. It is a great roaster that can roast some really good coffee. Every roasting device can bring frustration by the way....... Anyway, yea, ashy notes are an issue that can be prevented. Sounds like your beans are cooked on the outside but not all the way through, giving the crunchy hard to grind thing. I did a video on reasons why your coffee may taste ashy here th-cam.com/video/dfbRqAgnr4o/w-d-xo.html . Take a look at that, consider your roasting profile and then comment back. If you can, include the type of coffee, the weight of your roast, the total roast time and your event times. Also share your ending roast level. Please reply back to your original post when you can.
I actually did watch that video recently. The latest attempts were mexico chiapas organic washed process. The latest example I have is 6.3 oz. 210 degree charge temp. Dry end at about 4:45. First crack at 8:15. I pressed cool at about 9:15 with the assumption that some roasting would continue for about another 45 seconds. Ending roast level is probably between city and city plus.
Zac, inspect the beans for roasting defects. Also, crack a bean open at the seam and see if the color is consistent all the way through. Last, your development phase was only 10 percent of your total roast. You need more development time. If your dry time is 4:45 and say that is half of our total roast time, then a good target total roast time would be 9:30. Your target first crack time should be 7:36 and you drop the coffee at 9:30. That will give you a 50/30/20 phase percentage. So, you will need to lowered your heat too much after dry. It could be the fan that did that to you (on the behmor) if you were roasting with the behmor. The easiest way to figure all of your phase percentages out is to take your times and convert them to seconds. So a total roast time of 9:15 will be 555 seconds. Then you can take the length of your phase times and divide them by your total roast time and it will give you the percentage for that phase.
Yea I may have pressed stop too soon on that one. I was attempting to compensate for the slow cooldown on the behmor. But I have had roasts where development is 15-17% with the same results. I do go in seconds when I calculate my percentages. I also just split a few beans open and noticed that the insides of the beans are darker than the outsides.
What is happening to your temps when the fan kicks on around the 5 minute mark? What are your power settings before during and after. How low did your temp get around the 6 minute mark? I'm wondering if a significant drop in ROR may have influenced the flavors and then an overpowering to recover resulted in the darker ashy notes. One last thing I should have mentioned right from the beginning. How are you brewing your coffee? What type of grinder are you using and what is the grind size.
Really liked the video Mike. It was brilliant of you to think of tilting the Behmor roaster to cause longer exposure to the infrared element - I have never thought of that! As you already know, I can share in your frustration when all the numbers and data look good, but the taste doesn't correspond. If I could make a wild guess, I would say that although it is true that the Behmor does tend to go more slowly, I think as far as bean temperature (which is not easily done in the Behmor) it tends to go exponentially, starting slowly then increasing rapidly at the end. I am also suspecting that internal-to-surface bean temperature differential could be greater than it should be toward the end of the roast. Just my non-scientific guess. Could this latest roast be a bit woody from being heated too slowly and for too short a time in the Drying Phase? I know your charge (i.e. preheat) temperature was high, but when the beans are loaded in, they have almost zero heat transfer from the screen drum (which in your case was also at room temp). They are being heated only by the air they touch since the elements are not glowing at first, and won't be until almost a minute of roasting. And at the beginning of the roast, there is very little air movement in the chamber. I agree your percentages look good, but I can't help but wonder how the taste might have changed with the same percentages at a longer roast time. What I have learned from this video is I should: 1) do work-ups using only ONE roaster; and 2) roast the SAME (exactly the same) coffee every time; and 3) do tons of roasts until you get it just right. Didn't you relate a story to me of a guy you know who went through 20 lbs of one coffee before getting the great taste he was looking for? And after your results in this roast, I think there is something to that. Thoughts?
Hi Lou, I didn't come up with the idea of raising the front. I have read of others doing that and it made perfect sense. The question of "what source is roasting the beans on a Behmor, the hot temperature o the air created by the heating elements OR the elements themselves, acting as a "broiler" of sorts with their radiant heat. I think your comment on the internal bean temp aligns with my comment about "broiling". It could be that by it's nature, the Behmor's "optimal" roast style opposes the short, bright roasts we all have been trying to achieve. I think the woody note was really from a shorter development percentage taking place within a shorter total roast time. If this was a longer roast, the woody most likely would not have happened with that 15-16% development. At least that is the way I'm looking at this. I do think there is heat transfer from bean to bean because you can see the beans huddling together as the drum turns but not as much with the drum to bean like you said because of the cage design. Yes, there is a delay in the heating elements turning on BUT STILL, 241 degrees is enough heat to start the roasting process. Consider it a "soak" until the elements begin to glow ;-) Yes, longer roast time would have addressed the overall woody notes BUT the reality I was faced with after that roast and taste was the behmor can do it BUT the outcome isn't good. If I would have extended the roast, it would have been more like the hive roast. Maybe even taste similar but that wasn't my goal which was to try and accomplish the 8:30 roast time and the phase times I wanted. Technically I did that but the outcome i think was influenced by what i will call the "broiler" affect and the shorter total roast time. If I would have stuck with the drum roaster and tried different profiles that would have been a better test BUT I also wanted to show how each of these different roasting devices can be used to attempt to roast a specific profile???? Roasting the same coffee over and over, trying to find the sweet spot is what Trevor did and yea, it was a lot of coffee! I'm tempted to go back to the drum roaster and nail the 8:30 roast with the phase times I want just to see how it tastes..... I also have a potential opportunity borrowing a friends Ikawa pro which will roast the profile for me... Hmmmmm.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I think Luigi is onto something here, the roast starts slow, but then goes exponentially fast, especially once you hit 1st crack. I really seems to be a balancing act with temperature after first crack. A little too much and it races through to 2nd crack, a fraction less and you get wood. I think I'm getting better at finding that right balance now. I'm now at least able to control the temperature somewhat after 1st crack, and starting to learn now to extend the roast time at different temperatures. I find I have to back off a bit on the heat just before 1st crack. Then keep dropping the heat gradually through the development. I know Mike seems to prefer to just monitor the "B" temperature, but I personally find the "A" temperature really helpful to identify when first crack is about to happen, and how close you get to second crack. E.g. Apr 17 decaf Colum roast: 1st crack occurred at B = 276°F and A = 338°F. Apr 15 decaf Columb roast: 1st crack occurred at B = 270°F, A = 339°F. Mar 27 decaf Columb roast: 1st crack occurred a B = 289°F, A = 332°F. You can see the B temperature as a predictor of 1st crack varies by almost 20°F whereas the A temperature varies by 7°F. I know we all have our own ways or roasting, I guess that is where the art of roasting comes in. Anyway, sorry, I tried to stay off my high horse about the A temperature, but in the end I couldn't resist!
@Larry B I think an experiment may need to help in this conversation. I'm glad you have more control over your roast now that you are starting to see how roast momentum, especially from dry end through first crack can and does make or break your roast. Too much momentum pushes you too fast through the phases. While I do watch my temps and keep them high during the roast, I lower the temps as needed to meet my phase times I have planned. That usually means I need to slow the roast down so I don't fly through first crack. At some point I'm going to do a video on Behmor temperatures.....
@@larryb51 I think you're right Larry. I plot both my A and B temps and after the afterburner starts and the vent opens, the B temp usually drops or if I'm lucky it sort of stays the same. But the A temp rises - just like the bean temperature in a real drum roaster. And after first crack (1C), it still keeps rising even though the B temp is staying steady or falling. And although I don't think the A temp is an accurate bean temperature, it might be somewhat proportional to the actual bean temperature. Usually at 1C, I drop power to P3. But in light of what you said I should probably be dropping it earlier than 1C. How much before 1C do you reduce the heat? I've always wondered why I seemed to have such little control after 1C, and maybe what you said is the reason why. Thanks!
@@luigicollins3954 I've made a few newer observations: If I start dropping to P4 at A=320, then P3 at A=330-340F, I seem to be able to control a roasting temperature of 355-360 quite nicely and avoid blowing through development. I also read Scott Rao's blog on DTR and am realizing that a smoothly decreasing ROR is perhaps more crucial than DTR. I will be observing the B temperature more carefully so i can learn to control the ROR even better. It seems that, according to Rao, I should NEVER be apply more heat to increase the ROR during development. It looks like I should be aiming for a smoothly decreasing ROR until I get to my target final roasting temperature. I will start playing around with judging when to back off on the heat applied by watching the B temperature as well. If B gets down to 230F, the roast WILL lose momentum, but 240F still seems to keep the roast going. The trick seems to learn how to apply P3, P2, P1 to gently reduce the B temperature so that the A temperature can slowly and smoothly rise to the target. Lots for me to learn again!
After reading how everyone preheats their roasters, I'm noticing my Behmor seems to work differently. If I preheat too high (over 240 or 250 or thereabouts), stop the roaster to install the drum, it won't turn back on right away. Last time this happened to me, I pressed the "cool" briefly (for a second), then the roaster could be started. Anyone else notice this happening?
I didn't notice name of this coffee in your video, but it looks to me like Ethiopia Sidamo, I always have problems with Sidamo, never really nice equal roast.
Hello Zvonimir, Ethiopian Sidama Keramo Washed coffee from Sweet Marias. It is the same coffee I have been roasting for the last 3 videos, but using different machines...... What are you using to roast your coffee?
Yes, that isn't unusual for a Behmor, especially if you are roasting on the darker side. The longer roast times kind of push you into a flavor profile that does not include bright but favors the darker notes.
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Mike, thanks for all the work you've down with the Behmor for us. It has certainly helped me as I've been learning to roast. I still maintain that A temperatures are super important to monitor, at least with the 2000AB+. Secondly, I plotted my A and B temperatures from a wonderful accidental roast I made in December and have been trying to duplicate ever since. Then after looking at what Scott Rao has to say about RoR, I also plotted a recent roast and found that all my current roasts had too high a RoR. So I adjusted my roast profile to lower the RoR and got my wonderful cup again! Breaking almost every rule that everyone was telling me, I actually dropped the power just before the fan kicks on and let my B temperature FALL to about 240°F, then go back to P5. This has the effect of slowing the RoR, letting the beans spend a little more development time in the lower roasting temperatures. Before my decaf was just racing through the roast. Now I'm giving it time to develop other flavours that come out earlier in the development.
Thanks for your comment Larry. I would love to see your roast Dara you recorded both a and b temps with the times. Can you send that to me? Go to the about tab here on the channel and scroll down to find the link to send it.
Thanks!
Thanks for the video, Mike. I think there appears to be a misconception with the temperatures. Another TH-camr(he installed actual probes of his own to be able to prove this) explained that the temperatures change because of the position of the probes so when the fan kicks in one of probes (B) appears to lose temperature however the roaster itself isn't necessarily losing that much temperature. I personally use the B temperature until the fan kicks in then I use the A one afterwards. I use the 400g/1lb button to warm up the roaster as much as possible or according to the bean's charge temperature requirements then I turn off the roaster, put the drum in, and use the 200g/0.5lb button to roast my 300g batches. I also use an actual fan and 6 stainless steel colanders(helps dissipate the heat) to be able to fully cool the beans as quickly as possible which usually takes me around 3.5-4.5minutes. By passing the beans from one colander to another I also get rid of all the chaff although it makes a lot of mess in the end. Planning to upgrade to an Arlio Bullet this year though as the Behmor is just too time consuming for me (I consume around 2kg of coffee a month).
I also have a probe installed and using this and artisan software you see the huge drop in temp when the fan kicks in. That said this is now just part of my roast.
@hp and @ A Smith - Thanks for sharing your personal experience with the Behmor. I have said in my videos I use the B temp and many have told me to use the A once the fan kicks on. Truthfully, i have done this a couple of times and it was a little ocnfusuing for me Because I had no real reference to where I was before the fan. The numbers are completely different. One other huge factor in all of this, which i didn't mention in the video are the heating elements. They act as a "Broiler" of sorts. Think about that radiant heat burning against the outside of the bean. So, while my roaster was cooling (or appeared to be cooling) and I set it on P4, that intense radiant heat was shining directly on the beans. Not sure how we can measure that but I am pretty sure it has an impact. I would love to hear your thoughts on this
All temperatures aside for this past roast, I did hit my target events which means my heat management was successful. The end result wasn't exciting but I sure learned a lot from the experience.
I am one of those recommending following the "A" temperature as well once the fan kicks in. I've noticed that the "B" temperature can actually drop while the "A" temperature continues to increase. I've also noticed a VERY consistent pattern in my Behmor that once the A temperature reaches 335-340, 1st crack begins. 2nd crack almost always begins just above A = 360. There is no correlation to 1st and 2nd crack with the B temperature. This seems more important when roasting decaf beans because they are more sensitive to heat.
However, my afterburner just quit on my 4 month old Behmor. I noticed this when the A temperature suddenly dropped. I've got a replacement arriving today, so I'll see if a replacement afterburner changes my 1st and 2nd crack target A temperatures. I'm not sure why the afterburner quit so soon. Perhaps it is because I preheat to 230 or even 240F, or if it is because a few times I shut the roaster off to remove the beans, then turned it back on to cool, like Mike did. Or, I may have had a "weak" afterburner. We'll see how the next one lasts. I hope I don't have to keep replacing afterburners, or even elements, every 4-6 months.
@@larryb51 Thanks for your insights. I've had my Behmor since 2017 and only had to replace my afterburner in 2020 which has been fine since. I've also been roasting manually since 2020 as I came across this channel whereas before it was always on automatic.
1s and 2nd crack timing/temperature will vary depending on a number of variables rather on a set temperature as you suggested.
I sometimes preheat it to 164 degrees Celsius(I am in Australia) as the limit is 165. I also cool the beans outside the Behmor. I don't think those factors will influence on the lifespan of the afterburner.
It's good to know I'm not the only "rule breaker" when it comes to roasting with the Behmor. The longer I've used it and hear/read the experiences of other Behmor users, it seems like rules HAVE to be broken to get a good roast out of it. I too do a thorough preheat and pull the drum out for cooling (but always restart the cooling cycle). I think the only difference between our machines is that my PCB and drum motor matches what comes in the 2000AB Plus (motor speeds are 16/32 RPM instead of 8/16), and the thermal cutoff for safety is different as well. I've never had to do the "temperature surfing" as I've read about on forums to avoid shutdowns, thankfully. I'm at a point where I'm getting consistently solid coffee out of the Behmor despite its quirks, but I am also looking forward to getting a Hottop 2K+ once I've finished out my current roast log book for my Behmor. Thanks as always for your content and insight!
Thanks for watching Dustin. What is your typical total roast time on the Behmor? Also, just wondering why you picked the Hottop as your next roaster? Just curious...
@@VirtualCoffeeLab
I’m picking the Hottop because I don’t really have a good way to be able to use a gas roasting setup at home. Plus, I’m already used to working with a radiant electric heat source like the Behmor, so I’m thinking there will probably be some similarities there. Aside from that, my main draw toward the Hottop was being able to use Artisan for data/consistency without much additional set up or having to worry about things like installing thermocouples or a Phidget. Also, having an immediate, adjustable control over airflow was a big advantage over the Behmor.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab As to times on the Behmor, most of my roasts usually fall in the 11-12 minute range depending on how much development I’m aiming for. I typically hit first crack around 8-9 minutes, and with most of the coffees I roast, crack lasts for about a minute and a half before it tapers off and ends. I’m mostly sticking to washed Central and South American coffees and tend to like those coffees with a bit of development to bring out body and those deeper tones of chocolate/roasted nuts/molasses etc.
I think the Bullet is radiant heat as well. Not sure if you have considered that roaster. Also, there are different versions of the hottop right?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I had considered the Bullet at first, but it costs MUCH more than the HotTop, and honestly, the max batch size on the Bullet is probably overkill for my needs - I usually go through about half a pound of coffee within 7-10 days, and the recommended batch size for the HotTop is about half a pound. There are indeed different versions of the HotTop - the "basic" version (aka the 2K, no USB port for Artisan connection, complete manual control) and the 2K+, which allows for a connection to Artisan (both for logging and controlling the roaster) and is also programmable to save previous profiles.
the onset of the fan can be delayed by selecting 1# load size, and if you want to manually start the fan before it kicks in, the C button will do that. and the C button can be pressed again and again to keep it from entering cool mode before you are ready. i think you know all of this though. i really think it's tough to get a bright cup from a behmor, even when preheating and then pulling the drum for faster cooling.
Hi Paul. I think I definitely agree with you on it being difficult to get a bright taste from the Behmor. I have been trying to do that with mine for more than a year now, and after roasting 66 roasts of more than 20 different kinds of coffee, with all kinds of profiles, and using all kinds of techniques and tricks, I have not yet been able to reliably get a decent light and bright roast. I now am transitioning to the Aillio Bullet, but will always wonder if there is something that could be done to achieve that brightness in the Behmor.
Yea, I think the 1 lb setting has the fan go on at 7 minutes or something like that. So, someone else commented that the fan doesn't lower temperatures that much. The fan can be helpful, as it was here, to slow my roast down after dry. That is something i didn't mention but was an important point. I have roasted some bright coffee with the Behmor Paul, but I think you are right, it is tough because by it's design, the behmor is a slower roaster. Thanks for the comment Paul, I think you know more about the Behmor than I do. I'll keep you on my short list when I need help with the roaster bro. ;-)
Thanks for sharing!
Wow! I just realized that I have been roasting a washed Ethiopian Sidamo Keramo coffee as well. I'm thinking it's from a different farm however.
I roasted a VERY nice batch just yesterday in the Sandbox Smart r1 roaster. It's very sweet and has an amazing lemongrass flavor. It's tasting like a medium light coffee blended with a sweetened pure lemongrass tea. Very nice.
1st Crack at 9:46. End time 10:57.
Interesting. The first roast i did with this coffee on the drum roaster was close to that total roast time you had.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab From your description of your tasting notes, it seems to me that your first roast was the more complex and nuanced. Sounds tasty to me!
@@GoTellJesusSaves Hello, sir.
I just got my Sandbox R1 for 2 weeks and still struggling with it to get good roasts. Many of the roasts were tipping. Others tasted dull.
Would you mind sharing your successful profile?
It could help me a lotttt.
If so, it's under [Mine] > [select your profile] > [share button on the top-right corner] > [SNS sharing].
The profile code is in the square bracket.
Thank you in advance!
@@kittisiri Hi there!
I understand that. I had the same issue with a couple distended coffees I've roasted.
What I did to combat it was to start with a lower power setting then ramp up at a rate of every 10-20 seconds (depending on the coffee and whether I will use the coffee for espresso or filter.
So starting at 10 power, @10seconds up to 20, @20sec up to 30, etc. until reaching the desired roast temp. Also keeping the fan speed low in the beginning.
I'll see if I can figure out sharing... never done it before.
@@kittisiri This profile is for a fairly small bean, natural processed Ethiopian coffee. Medium light roast.
Your outcome will depend greatly on the type of coffee used.
But overall, using the ramp up in temp will help mitigate tipping.
Also... I'm not sure if you have previous experience with that specific coffee you're using, but if you find it tipping even at low temps, it's probably due to the coffee itself having weak composition.
I have some coffees that have been nearly impossible to cause tipping with. While others have been nearly impossible to keep from tipping.
Mike, that hollow note is due to the temperature drop. I avoid this by heating everything including the drum, starting with max time, hitting 325 right when the vent opens and fan turns on. THEN, I put the coffee in the Behmor and run it manually to achieve my desired profile. I can get a 5 minute total roast time (not recommended) if I want to.
Hi Febo, thanks for sharing how you charge and roast the shorter roast times and your comment about the temperature drop. It seems like it is pretty much unavoidable with the behmor but I'm thinking the woody note could also be from a shorter development percentage taking place within a shorter total roast time. If this was a longer roast, the woody most likely would not have happened with my 15-16% development. At least that is the way I'm looking at this. I'm thinking the "broiler" affect from the Behmor (possibly during that temperature drop) may have helped influenced that roast. But you could be right. I know scott rao talks about this in his books.
You saw I was at 324 at the three minute and fifty second mark on my roast, I coasted for about 30 seconds to get the temp down a little (down to 315) and then hit P4 about 20 seconds before the fan kicked on. So I was 10 degrees cooler than what you are saying. Do you think that would have caused that? In hind site, the temp drop helped me slow my roast so I wouldn't fly through first crack and have a short browning phase.... Hmmm lots to think about here. Thoughts?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Mike, I agree there are multiple things going on: the temperature drop leads to a flat, hollow taste, while the woody notes are likely due to the shorter roast time. I do an initial warm-up to 190 degrees. Then, after an on-off cycle, it's 100% for max. time (25:30) with empty drum -- this brings it to 325+ by the time the fan activates at 18:00 -- plenty of time left for any roast! Take out the pre-warmed drum, add beans, roast. I turn up the drum speed when I get to FC, it acts like increased air flow. Give it a try!
Febo, are you installing the drum an loading the beans while the roaster is on? And your charge temp is near 325? Wow, so how are you avoiding the fan issue?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I do a “warm-up” roast with the chaff tray and drum in the roaster - the empty drum does not need to rotate, so I just set it inside along with the chaff tray. I let this run until the temperature is 185-195 degrees - at that temperature, during the “actual” roast, the termperature will be hitting 315-325 degrees right around when the fan turns on.
At the end of the “warm-up” roast, I cycle the roaster off and on, set it for the maximum time of 25:30, and start it on manual P5 (=100% power). At 18:00, the fan will activate and the vent opens - the temperature will drop now; however, it doesn’t matter because the beans are not even in the roaster yet. By the time, the beans are at a critical point in the roast, the temperature will have stabilized - thus, the fan is no longer a problem!
Anyway, now is the time to get the drum out, fill it with beans, and load it into the roaster - all without turning off the roaster! This takes a bit of practice, but you just let the bolt slide into the moving rotor, and the other side will connect easily.
The next problem is temperature regulation. Initially, it is still set on manual P5 (=100% power), but this may be too much power depending on the bean mass. On manual mode, P4=75%, but it doesn’t just lower the wattage, it cycles the heating element on 15 seconds and off 5 seconds, and this leads to temperature fluctuations and is not very precise. The ROR will drop off too quickly at P4, so instead I just toggle between 100% (P5) and 0% (P1). Starting at +60 seconds after the roast, I toggle to 0% (P1) for two seconds, then back to to 100% (P5) every 10 seconds. This gives you about 80% power.
Yes, I have measured the temperatures with a separate probe and charted my ROR, etc. but it doesn’t really matter once you are hitting your target times and getting a satisfactory roast. I ended up with my toggling method to achieve the correct ROR profile.
This leads to a roast that is roughly equal time spent in the first two phases. The bean mass also determines the roasting speed. 250 g (1/2 lb.) = 10 min to FC. It’s roughly 1 gram = 1 second, so dropping to 200 g = 8 minutes to FC.
I just keep toggling back and forth every 10 seconds, until I get near first crack, at which point, I increase the drum speed, which acts like increased air flow, to stretch the roast. Then, just keep going until you’re done.
I also like to do a “soak” - I let the beans warm up a little while in the drum in the roaster initially, during the "warm up roast", and just set the beans on a aluminum tray on top of the roaster after that to let them get a little warm - this helps convert tartness into juicy acidity.
It has also been my experience with this, that you may need to end the roast earlier in development to preserve floral notes, but this is a matter of preference. However, with this method, my roasts are as good as anything I can buy from a speciality roaster.
It only took me 12 years of experimenting with the Behmor to get here!
Thanks again for sharing Febo. You are very familiar with your roaster capabilities. I appreciate you including the detailed process you use for your entire roast.
I posted a question here, but I guess it didn't save, so I'll post it again. How do you explain the big difference between the results of roasting on three different roasters when you were trying to achieve the "same" profile. Of course you can't achieve exactly the same roast, but that the resulting coffee taste is so vastly different is beyond my comprehension. Thank you for your opinion! Pavel
Great question Paul. I think the two biggies were phase percentages and total roast time.
I got the total roast time on the Drum roaster but not the percentages
I got the phase percentages on the hive but not the total roast time
I got both the phases and total roast time on the Behmor.
So essentially we had 3 different roasts. They were not the same and that is why they tasted different. This video presented one challenge that all home coffee roasters have and that is to control their roast and be able to replicate it. That was what I was attempting to do. With all of my videos, I reveal my challenges as well as my successes. I was trying to compare the three roasts and the glaring reality was I didn't roast them exactly the same way. That was my failure. BUT, the third time is the charm and I accomplished what I had set out to do and that was to nail the total roast time and phase percentages I was attempting to do from the beginning.....
Haa, I got a little carried away there Paul. The short answer is they tasted differently because they were totally different roast profiles. Did that help answer your question. Feel free to clarify or ask more about this. I hope I understood your question correctly. :-)
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you for your time and effort with my question. I understand but still I am amazed how relatively small differences in the roasting procedure make such a big difference. I will be looking forward to more of your videos! Pavel
Love this - I was not out of my mind. The Behmor would drive me nuts - only with this one point - repeatable. Once I got a Columbian - just wonderful - I couldnt get it the same next time. Watching you do this - lets see - tilt it back, preheat, drop and charge, then pull and dump - no imagine - what was the air temp during these events - as cold air races in opening the door etc. etc. MY POINT is - there are “rigged” ideas - but it really isnt a repeatable roasting machine. I bought 5lbs of green from Sweet Maria - and I bet at least 1/3 if not 1/2 went to experimenting and then attempting to repeat it. Sorry - NO. Years ago when I had one - and was confused - I went to a specialty local roaster - he laughed - be glad you got a good roast at least once - he said - your problem is the roaster. We repeat our profiles per our coffees easily or we wouldnt be in business. THANKS for reminding me.
I think you have made a good point Stew. There is a huge difference between a Behmor and a large drum roaster OR a device that controls every aspect of the roast. The Behmor can give a repeatable result but not as easily as a larger unit with more coffee mass and hot metal to maintain temperatures.
I am able to roast the same roast over and over on a Behmor, BUT on this coffee, I was trying to do something the behmor is known for not being able to do..... a shorter roast time. Yes, I agree, larger roaster, more mass, slower changes in the roast temperatures, all of this helps repeatability. Thanks for sharing your comments Stew. What are you roasting with? I think I ask you on a previous video.... Was the the Bullet?
I've owned a Behmor and then an Aillio Bullet, to be completely honest the Aillio was almost more frustrating. The Behmor being a one trick pony actually produced some decent coffees fairly easily, BUT with limited control and some finagling. The Bullet though was frustratingly difficult to master, even though it touts all of the same features as a production roaster, it's also difficult to roast consistent batches due to its low thermal mass. It took many many roasts and dumped batches to start to understand the machine and what I was doing wrong/right. But all of that said, I've had terrible coffee come off of a Loring from a newbie local roaster. So to be honest the issue with any roaster is likely more the operator, the quality of the greens, then the device and in that exact order. Roasting coffee is likely one of the most finicky culinary endeavours one can venture down, IF you're truly looking to get the most from your greens.
I have seen the propped up front technique, but a piece of 2X4 makes a more stable base than the Legos :) I Think I will give this a try and see how it affects the roast.
I was trying to appeal to the Lego fans out there ;-) Yea, I didn't make up that front leg elevation trick. I have read of other Behmor people giving that a try. Let me know how it works for you. Thanks for watching!
When you said you had made some mods I was hoping this would be installation of a temperature probe. I was only able to attain repeatability when using a probe and artisan software. IMHO, without these it’s flying blind. I am very happy with my roasts and am always within the 50:30:20 ballpark.
I SO MUCH agree with your comments regarding a temp probe and flying blind. I know of a guy on TH-cam who did instal a true bean probe. It wasn't pretty, and his method could have long-term operational issues. But, it did allow the Behmor to sort of be used more like a real drum roaster.
Yea, the 50/30/20 is a great starting point. How long is your total roast time and what type of coffee are you usually roasting with those phase percentages? Where did you install your probe? Are you using the Sweet Marias probe and instructions?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I should have said above that I did NOT make the mods to install a bean temp probe in the Behmor. I wrote to the guy asking if he could show me data that corresponds bean probe temperature to "B temps" and "A temps", and he said he would, but he never got back to me. :-(
hello～ Glad to meet this good learning video。There's a question：Preheat 250 degrees，Is it Fahrenheit or Celsius？I look forward to receiving your reply. Thank you
Hello Arwen, 250 Fahrenheit. When watching the video you will see the callout temperatures and I show both Fahrenheit and Celsius. Watch the video here at 6:21 and you will see I pre-heated to 250 but by the time I put the coffee in the roaster and started the roast, the temp went down a little to 241 f / 116.1c .
Hi Mike, I'm a beginner with the Behmor and I do half lb batches. I preheat for about two minutes but I haven't been slowing down the middle by dropping the temperature. I let it get up to 400. is that too hot?
Hi Bill, congrats on the Behmor. The short answer is yes in my opinion. You should do an experiment and compare that roast with one that allows the temps to slowly go down. What this does is gibes more time for the coffee to roast during the middle phase (browning), allowing the reactions to take place. Be sure to watch all of my behmor videos ( I have a playlist just for behmores.). In those videos I talk about and the phase percentages. You should also watch my video called 3 tips for new home coffee roasters. This explains the 3 phases of the coffee roasting process. That will be really helpful.
Thanks for watching and subscribe if you haven’t already. Thanks Bill!
I have the new Behmor 2000 AB Plus. I just did two one pound batches two days in a row, and I'm having some issues. I want to pose the question for you, as well as any other Behmor users. I'm preheating, I start with 100% heat and the fast drum speed. It is taking a super long time to reach first crack, and it's very strange ... By the time first crack happens with a full pound, the beans are already extremely dark, there is a lot of scorching, and even a carbon flavor in the brew. I can't see any way to avoid this. 15-19 minute roasts, and the color I want arrives way sooner than first crack, so I can't stop the roast ... I do use an external cooler, as well. Is the Behmor just not good for a pound even though the company says it can do it? Please advise.
Hi Michael, thanks for watching
My video and for sharing your experience. There are quite a few questions I have about your roast but let me first just say your suspicions are correct. The 1 lb of greens is too much to have a successful roast in under 12’or 13 minutes without creating roasting defects and essentially burning the outside of the beans.
The heating elements glow orange and shower intense infrared light onto the beans. It’s like giving sunburn to the beans. I’m sure I will have some fellow roasters disagree with me about this. The better approach would be to roast 1/2 lb. I have a few behmor roasting videos you should consider watching. Watch what I do and more importantly WHY I do it. If you try and repeat/replicate my roast there will be some differences BUT, understanding why I am doing what I do with these roasts should help you get close enough to to repeat and then after some confidence, experiment a little.
A goal for all roasts is to have an even roast. Cracking open a roasted bean should reveal an evenly roasted bean not one that is lighter or green Ben darker in the middle.
Was that helpful? Let me know if you need further clarification.
As far as my questions about your roast, are you using the auto profiles or manual mode? Are you documenting your times and temps and aware of roasting events and phase percentages?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I appreciate your reply! A little background ... I've been home roasting since 2017 on my stovetop in the heavy duty stainless popcorn popper from the Sweet Maria's kit. Since then, I've honed my roasting to phenomenal results. Recently, a few things happened. First, I just kind of got sick of spinning the darned popper manually. I end up dancing around, trying to keep my back and legs from getting too tired, etc. Fun, but five years of it might be enough. 😁 Second, my wife and I got to talking about the next phase of our lives, the changing employment climate, etc. and decided to dip our toe in the coffee roasting business arena. I researched a bunch of options, and the only one I found that "can roast one pound" and was relatively inexpensive was the Behmor. Two things have immediately disappointed me...first, waiting an hour between roasts?!?!? Second, one pound roasts are so far inferior to coffee I roast manually on my stove top. These two things have put a damper on trying to try selling coffee using this machine. Could you imagine? Anyway, I have a 2kg drum roaster being manufactured for me, but that won't be here for months and we wanted to start gearing up the business while we waited.
I'm sorry if none of that is really relevant to this particular issue. I hope you don't mind. 😊
To answer your question, I am roasting manually. I honestly got a lot of my confidence crushed when I kept burning my coffee, but I think I really have to blame it on the machine at this point. I am absolutely a Behmor noob, but there is a lot of pitfalls that I'm unsure have a solution.
A couple of other bits...I'm preheating, I have gloves, and I also have an external cooler, so I am also cooling in my external cooler immediately after the roast.
It's just the roasting of a whole pound that's throwing me off. It feels a lot like false advertising.
I am sure I can learn a lot more from watching your videos and testing your methods. I know you have the Mill City roaster, as well, so I'm sure you can attest to how fantastically different the Behmor is from how the pros roast coffee.
You live, you learn.
So, I went back to another 1 lb. Roast tonight after really thinking through the variables, and I achieved FC at 12:30 and Drop at 14 minutes for a nice medium light roast. 14.4% weight loss making final weight 13.7 oz. For anyone interested, I preheated to 250 degrees, added the beans at 100% heat with drum speed on high. I rode this temp and speed setting all the way to FC. I knew the machine forces the fan on, which brought more airflow but also dropped temp, so you do not want to ease up your temp setting until you reach FC. Then I threw it into 25% heat and cracked the door. Yellow was reached at 5:30. I used the machine's quirks and that really changed my outcome.
Michael, don't kick yourself too hard. The behmor has got a lot of people into the coffee business. As a matter of fact, I did a video with a friend who owns a very successful coffee shop. He started out on a behmor and used it for a couple of years before making the jump. So, it can work BUT your doing a lot of roasts to produce.
One of the "mysteries" of the Behmor is the way it is heating the roaster. I believe that because of the "cage like" drum, the infrared light (kind of like a broiler) can roast the outside of the beans. Yes, the heat it generates is also roasting the whole bean but I can't ignore the effects of the orange light. I will have a video on that soon. To keep your business goals in line, I would go back to the old system and take turns with your wife. You will both build some muscle mass (which is a good thing). Sorry I can't be more helpful. I would not have advised you to buy the Behmor if I knew you needed to roast a pound at a time. Sorry about that. Have you don't your market research for selling specialty coffee in your area?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks for the reply! I definitely knew what I was buying when I bought it. I thought to myself that something was better than nothing, but I wasn't aware of the long wait time between roasts until I read the manual. It was the only machine in that had a good batch size to cost to features ratio. I don't mind roasting a pound at a time on demand, but the wait kills it for me. No big deal ... I'll focus more on the foundational business and branding stuff and my 2 kg machine will be here soon enough.
I am a web developer and marketer by trade, so my plan is to focus heavily on online sales, with local support. We have some great festivals, markets, and special vendor events around my area that I'll be taking advantage of. We could potentially pull in a massive profit on those days and weekends.
My city has one coffee roastery. She roasts on vintage peanut roasters by touch. It's okay coffee, and the locals seem to like it, but it's not phenomenal. We have a handful of cafes, as well.
I have several "big" cities within 30-40 minutes of my location in all directions.
I have a huge local grocery store that loves giving local farms and businesses the opportunity to feature their products.
Additionally, I live in a major resort area, with at least 5-6 resorts and a casino within driving distance from my home.
The local foodie scene is also growing in my area.
I will take your advice and go slow and gradually build on the foundation.
Thanks again for the input.
Great video Mike
Thanks for watching Shane!
Hey Mike I was just wondering what you would change from this video to get the coffee more like the other roasters? Ie tastier notes
Joe, I'm thinking a longer roast time. That woody note may have been the lower development percentage in combination with that shorter roast time. If the roast time was longer (like nine minutes and thirty seconds) then that may have made the difference. Not sure about that. I would have to give it another go. I'm thinking of going back to the drum roaster and giving it another try.
Thanks
I think the roast was just "rushed." Each of the phases seemed to move pretty fast and there was definitely a lack of development time. I'd be interested to see the adjustments you made and how they impacted the flavor.
Yea, I agree. I learned that the same coffee we roast using different roasting machines may require a different profile to get similar results. So, in the case of the Behmor and this Ethiopian washed Sidama I think a longer total roast time and a slightly shorter middle phase might have improved the roast. The biggest problem was it didn't have any real defining characteristics. This could have been because of the shorter total roast time OR the middle phase.
The Behmor doesn't have the same level of air movement as my drum roaster. Air helps promote the roasting process so a longer total roast time seems to make sense.
Are you roasting on the Behmor? Have you roasted an ethiopian to maximize origin flavor, keeping it in the medium to medium light side of roast level? What does your profile look like?
Thanks for watching, sharing and for being a subscriber!
I roast with a Hottop and I’m trying to figure out a charge temp that gets my dry phase between 4-5 minutes as to maintain the uniqueness of the origin (according to a Mill City video
I’ve seen)
I find that’s around 340 bean temp. The issue I see is that I do see some scorching. Would you prefer a longer dry time to avoid to roast defect? I think I could do less than the manufacturer 250g of coffee but to be honest I haven’t seen too much of a difference when roasting 200g.
Last question - do you start timing at the turning point? That is what I do since artisan does that.
Hi Alec, what version of the Hottop do you have? What type of coffee you are roasting. What is the process and density. As far as scorching, are you able to increase your drum speed? If yes, then give that a try.
Sounds like the setup you have with artisan might need some adjusting when it comes to monitoring your roast times and events. When you click charge button IN ARTISAN, it should display the trending line for bean temp. OR you are talking about the ROR line? The ROR (Rate of Rise) line appears after turning point. Please clarify what you mean. Our roast starts at charge (when the beans enter the roaster) and all events are times from that point.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I have the KN-8828B-2K+ so I can't increase drum speed. I am roasting all kinds of coffee usually get 5 lb bags and alternate occasionally through them. The one that prompted this conversation is the Guatemala Acatenango Gesha from Sweet Marias.
I have relied on the automatic Charge and TP detection in Artisan. You're right that time 0 is at charge in Artisan. I guess the one time I have been using is the projected amount of time from TP to get to dry and FC. I still use my LED lamp and visuals but also that projection to know if I should change my heat and air.
Currently I have stopped soaking the beans (I'd love a video explaining why people soak the beans) so that I can keep applying heat to the roaster to try and get through dry faster. It always takes between 5-6 minutes even with a higher charge temp like 340 degrees. Dry is the hardest target to hit, I am pretty in control of browning and development. Thanks for taking the time to interact. My roasts have become much better since learning from you!
Alec, the Hottop is a great roaster but it is a little slow in the dry phase. There will be a limit where your charge temp will cause roast defects. This will vary from bean to bean. Turning point is your friend as it provides a huge nugget about your roast momentum. Compare TP temps and times when you change your charge temp AND when you change the power setting on your roaster during the first 2 minutes of the roast. Those changes will be reflected in your TP. More energy, higher charge temp = shorter TP time with a higher TP temp. So, for me, I calculate my total roast time from Charge till Drop. That is the norm. Yes, this will lengthen your dry phase but that is ok. Getting a dry time past 5 minutes is not a problem, just focus on the phase percentages within the roast. There are creative ways to help promote a shorter dry phase like prewarming the roaster at a higher temp, prewarming the roaster for a longer period of time, lowering your airflow (if you have it set too high), increase your power setting during dry.
Mike, first I just wanted to say I have learned a lot from your videos. I did have a question. I sent you a message on Facebook messenger but I don’t know if you ever check that so I figured I would post it here too. I just bought a Behmour 2000ab, and no matter what I do my roasts always have an ashy quality to them. I have noticed that the beans seem crunchier or harder when I grind them versus coffee I purchase from different roasters. I have also noticed that the beans I roast don’t give off a lot of CO2 when stored in a bag, even after sitting for a few days, but after grinding and adding water to them, the beans release a lot of CO2 and have a very vigorous bloom. This is happened to every bean that I have roasted so far. I have tried varying my charge temperature, my development time, and have tried to compensate for the cooldown period by cooling sooner and also removing the drum outright. Any advice you could give would be very much appreciated.
Hi Zac, thanks for your message. Yea, I was taking a break this weekend from social media, sorry about that. Congrats on the Behmor. It will bring you many years of frustration and joy at the same time. It is a great roaster that can roast some really good coffee. Every roasting device can bring frustration by the way....... Anyway, yea, ashy notes are an issue that can be prevented. Sounds like your beans are cooked on the outside but not all the way through, giving the crunchy hard to grind thing. I did a video on reasons why your coffee may taste ashy here th-cam.com/video/dfbRqAgnr4o/w-d-xo.html . Take a look at that, consider your roasting profile and then comment back. If you can, include the type of coffee, the weight of your roast, the total roast time and your event times. Also share your ending roast level. Please reply back to your original post when you can.
I actually did watch that video recently. The latest attempts were mexico chiapas organic washed process. The latest example I have is 6.3 oz. 210 degree charge temp. Dry end at about 4:45. First crack at 8:15. I pressed cool at about 9:15 with the assumption that some roasting would continue for about another 45 seconds. Ending roast level is probably between city and city plus.
Zac, inspect the beans for roasting defects. Also, crack a bean open at the seam and see if the color is consistent all the way through. Last, your development phase was only 10 percent of your total roast. You need more development time. If your dry time is 4:45 and say that is half of our total roast time, then a good target total roast time would be 9:30. Your target first crack time should be 7:36 and you drop the coffee at 9:30. That will give you a 50/30/20 phase percentage. So, you will need to lowered your heat too much after dry. It could be the fan that did that to you (on the behmor) if you were roasting with the behmor.
The easiest way to figure all of your phase percentages out is to take your times and convert them to seconds. So a total roast time of 9:15 will be 555 seconds. Then you can take the length of your phase times and divide them by your total roast time and it will give you the percentage for that phase.
Yea I may have pressed stop too soon on that one. I was attempting to compensate for the slow cooldown on the behmor. But I have had roasts where development is 15-17% with the same results. I do go in seconds when I calculate my percentages. I also just split a few beans open and noticed that the insides of the beans are darker than the outsides.
What is happening to your temps when the fan kicks on around the 5 minute mark? What are your power settings before during and after. How low did your temp get around the 6 minute mark? I'm wondering if a significant drop in ROR may have influenced the flavors and then an overpowering to recover resulted in the darker ashy notes.
One last thing I should have mentioned right from the beginning. How are you brewing your coffee? What type of grinder are you using and what is the grind size.
Really liked the video Mike. It was brilliant of you to think of tilting the Behmor roaster to cause longer exposure to the infrared element - I have never thought of that! As you already know, I can share in your frustration when all the numbers and data look good, but the taste doesn't correspond. If I could make a wild guess, I would say that although it is true that the Behmor does tend to go more slowly, I think as far as bean temperature (which is not easily done in the Behmor) it tends to go exponentially, starting slowly then increasing rapidly at the end. I am also suspecting that internal-to-surface bean temperature differential could be greater than it should be toward the end of the roast. Just my non-scientific guess.
Could this latest roast be a bit woody from being heated too slowly and for too short a time in the Drying Phase? I know your charge (i.e. preheat) temperature was high, but when the beans are loaded in, they have almost zero heat transfer from the screen drum (which in your case was also at room temp). They are being heated only by the air they touch since the elements are not glowing at first, and won't be until almost a minute of roasting. And at the beginning of the roast, there is very little air movement in the chamber. I agree your percentages look good, but I can't help but wonder how the taste might have changed with the same percentages at a longer roast time.
What I have learned from this video is I should: 1) do work-ups using only ONE roaster; and 2) roast the SAME (exactly the same) coffee every time; and 3) do tons of roasts until you get it just right. Didn't you relate a story to me of a guy you know who went through 20 lbs of one coffee before getting the great taste he was looking for? And after your results in this roast, I think there is something to that. Thoughts?
Hi Lou, I didn't come up with the idea of raising the front. I have read of others doing that and it made perfect sense. The question of "what source is roasting the beans on a Behmor, the hot temperature o the air created by the heating elements OR the elements themselves, acting as a "broiler" of sorts with their radiant heat. I think your comment on the internal bean temp aligns with my comment about "broiling". It could be that by it's nature, the Behmor's "optimal" roast style opposes the short, bright roasts we all have been trying to achieve.
I think the woody note was really from a shorter development percentage taking place within a shorter total roast time. If this was a longer roast, the woody most likely would not have happened with that 15-16% development. At least that is the way I'm looking at this. I do think there is heat transfer from bean to bean because you can see the beans huddling together as the drum turns but not as much with the drum to bean like you said because of the cage design. Yes, there is a delay in the heating elements turning on BUT STILL, 241 degrees is enough heat to start the roasting process. Consider it a "soak" until the elements begin to glow ;-) Yes, longer roast time would have addressed the overall woody notes BUT the reality I was faced with after that roast and taste was the behmor can do it BUT the outcome isn't good. If I would have extended the roast, it would have been more like the hive roast. Maybe even taste similar but that wasn't my goal which was to try and accomplish the 8:30 roast time and the phase times I wanted. Technically I did that but the outcome i think was influenced by what i will call the "broiler" affect and the shorter total roast time.
If I would have stuck with the drum roaster and tried different profiles that would have been a better test BUT I also wanted to show how each of these different roasting devices can be used to attempt to roast a specific profile???? Roasting the same coffee over and over, trying to find the sweet spot is what Trevor did and yea, it was a lot of coffee! I'm tempted to go back to the drum roaster and nail the 8:30 roast with the phase times I want just to see how it tastes..... I also have a potential opportunity borrowing a friends Ikawa pro which will roast the profile for me... Hmmmmm.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I think Luigi is onto something here, the roast starts slow, but then goes exponentially fast, especially once you hit 1st crack. I really seems to be a balancing act with temperature after first crack. A little too much and it races through to 2nd crack, a fraction less and you get wood. I think I'm getting better at finding that right balance now. I'm now at least able to control the temperature somewhat after 1st crack, and starting to learn now to extend the roast time at different temperatures. I find I have to back off a bit on the heat just before 1st crack. Then keep dropping the heat gradually through the development. I know Mike seems to prefer to just monitor the "B" temperature, but I personally find the "A" temperature really helpful to identify when first crack is about to happen, and how close you get to second crack. E.g. Apr 17 decaf Colum roast: 1st crack occurred at B = 276°F and A = 338°F. Apr 15 decaf Columb roast: 1st crack occurred at B = 270°F, A = 339°F. Mar 27 decaf Columb roast: 1st crack occurred a B = 289°F, A = 332°F. You can see the B temperature as a predictor of 1st crack varies by almost 20°F whereas the A temperature varies by 7°F.
I know we all have our own ways or roasting, I guess that is where the art of roasting comes in. Anyway, sorry, I tried to stay off my high horse about the A temperature, but in the end I couldn't resist!
@Larry B I think an experiment may need to help in this conversation. I'm glad you have more control over your roast now that you are starting to see how roast momentum, especially from dry end through first crack can and does make or break your roast. Too much momentum pushes you too fast through the phases. While I do watch my temps and keep them high during the roast, I lower the temps as needed to meet my phase times I have planned. That usually means I need to slow the roast down so I don't fly through first crack.
At some point I'm going to do a video on Behmor temperatures.....
@@larryb51 I think you're right Larry. I plot both my A and B temps and after the afterburner starts and the vent opens, the B temp usually drops or if I'm lucky it sort of stays the same. But the A temp rises - just like the bean temperature in a real drum roaster. And after first crack (1C), it still keeps rising even though the B temp is staying steady or falling. And although I don't think the A temp is an accurate bean temperature, it might be somewhat proportional to the actual bean temperature.
Usually at 1C, I drop power to P3. But in light of what you said I should probably be dropping it earlier than 1C. How much before 1C do you reduce the heat? I've always wondered why I seemed to have such little control after 1C, and maybe what you said is the reason why. Thanks!
@@luigicollins3954 I've made a few newer observations: If I start dropping to P4 at A=320, then P3 at A=330-340F, I seem to be able to control a roasting temperature of 355-360 quite nicely and avoid blowing through development. I also read Scott Rao's blog on DTR and am realizing that a smoothly decreasing ROR is perhaps more crucial than DTR. I will be observing the B temperature more carefully so i can learn to control the ROR even better. It seems that, according to Rao, I should NEVER be apply more heat to increase the ROR during development. It looks like I should be aiming for a smoothly decreasing ROR until I get to my target final roasting temperature.
I will start playing around with judging when to back off on the heat applied by watching the B temperature as well. If B gets down to 230F, the roast WILL lose momentum, but 240F still seems to keep the roast going. The trick seems to learn how to apply P3, P2, P1 to gently reduce the B temperature so that the A temperature can slowly and smoothly rise to the target.
Lots for me to learn again!
After reading how everyone preheats their roasters, I'm noticing my Behmor seems to work differently. If I preheat too high (over 240 or 250 or thereabouts), stop the roaster to install the drum, it won't turn back on right away. Last time this happened to me, I pressed the "cool" briefly (for a second), then the roaster could be started. Anyone else notice this happening?
Yep, that is a common occurrence. To avoid this, It’s best to stay under 250° for the preheat Larry. Keep it well below that and it shouldn’t happen.
I didn't notice name of this coffee in your video, but it looks to me like Ethiopia Sidamo, I always have problems with Sidamo, never really nice equal roast.
Hello Zvonimir, Ethiopian Sidama Keramo Washed coffee from Sweet Marias. It is the same coffee I have been roasting for the last 3 videos, but using different machines...... What are you using to roast your coffee?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab
I am using Gene Cafe cbr101
Sometimes it was up to 14 min for my Behmor
Yes, that isn't unusual for a Behmor, especially if you are roasting on the darker side. The longer roast times kind of push you into a flavor profile that does not include bright but favors the darker notes.