It's so funny to see the Avia S 199 lined up next to a P 51 D and a Supermarine spitfire , all with the same national markings , as is the case in the Israeli Air Force museum in Southern Israel
It's the easiest way to verify it has been the Zionists maggots who have been behind all wars and civil conflicts for the past 300 years by the fact when they pulled off the biggest real estate scam in history and established modern day Israel they just happen to have weapons and ordnance used by all sides from the conflict known as World War Two.
Gideon Lichtman (we knew him then as Mr. Ramon) was a teacher at the high school I went to in southwest Miami, Florida. He was a great "life advice coach" to us youngsters as he'd seen so much in his own life. It was hilarious to hear him say things (or curse) in Yiddish, thinking no one would know what he'd said. I'd had some exposure to that as a little kid and cracked up laughing one day when he cursed out an ornery overhead projector with a few really choice words, totally taking him by surprise. He did talk to me about his aviation background a bit, as my dad had also been a WWII aviation guy, and was still working in that field at Eastern Air Lines. He was the kind of good person you will always remember.
I have loved aviation since my early teens. Read a huge amount of aviation history. Eventually had a 37 year career flying everything from the DC-3 to the B777. And this is the first I have read of the Avia S.199! Beautifully produced video. No odd photos thrown in of aircraft not actually S.199s. Great job and thanks a lot!
Dave, I agree with you about the quality of this video but... you got it wrong about "No odd photos thrown in of aircraft not actually S.199s". NOT. Checkout the image at 7:35. A handsome young F4U pilot standing in front of his steed. (Why do they do that?) Also... do terms like " U-control or .049 Thimble drome or Dooling .29 mean anything to you?
@@demiurgiac Yes, those terms are very familiar. My interests ran more to scale plastic models though. I had a huge collection, mostly WWII. Don’t know what happened to all of them, but I do have a few on my bookcase I have built recently of A/C I have actually flown. DC3, C46, and F27. Have DC6 and B727 kits I will get around to someday.
@@demiurgiac The guy standing in front of the F4U was one of the first volunteers to fly the S199 for Israel, so the photo is really not that out of place
The Israeli Air Force also came close to getting one of the most storied fighter aces of world war 2 at that time. George Beurling, who shot down 27 aircraft over Malta in 1942, was on his way to Israel when his plane crashed in Italy under suspicious circumstances.
He was flying cargo. He crashed while taking off from Rome. There are no records stating he was to join the Israeli Air force. Which he might not have done, as he was against oppressors.
Beurling was buried in Rome originally, but in 1950 his body was exhumed and re-buried (with the permission of his family) in the Kibbutz Yagar cemetery near Haifa in Israel. The Israeli Air Force provided an honor guard for the funeral. His family would not have allowed this unless he wished this.
Patrick Watson had a series "The Canadians" and one chapter was on Beurling. It is right here on You Tube. It was produced in the early 90's so some of the people who knew him were still alive. He was offered a lot of money to fly for the Arabs, and asked his father, who told him he thought that if he did he would be fighting for the wrong side. Don't take my word for it. The video is right here if you search it up. It is well worth watching in my opinion.
Imagine how effective the first fighter squadrons of the Israeli Airforce could have been if only the Czechs had not lost all those DB605s in the factory fire!
But then I'm not sure Israelis would have gotten them. One of the reason for Czechs selling the 199 to the Israeli air force was that their pilots refused to fly the "mules", having received the months prior to the Israeli war of independence better and more reliable airplanes from the USSR.
@@WillyWeiss-HH Největší důvod prodeje nejen těchto letadel ale i přebytečných zbraní a nábojů bylo získání peněz pro nastupující komunistickou vládu. Dokonce nedávno Češi natočili film Toman kdy český komunista židovského původu jménem Toman v padesátých letech organizoval migrační vlny židů z Polska a Sovětského svazu přes Československo na jih Evropy. Za každou osobu komunisté inkasovali peníze od Americké židovské organizace . Tajně.
@@WillyWeiss-HH Better and more reliable is more than questionable when it comes to Soviet garbage. Czechoslovakia had bunch of Spitfires (later sold to Israel as well - at least some part) that were solid and solidly built fighters. But from Soviets, they got some Lavochkins, but those ones literally rotted in some 2 years. Those wooden fuselages were deteriorating too quickly, thus albeit more powerful than S.199 they would be forces out of the service sooner.
7:44 The torque was not necessarily the problem. The problem was applying full power to soon (sometimes because the pilot is scared of a relatively short runway…) before enough airspeed had built up to make the rudder effective. This was not an exclusive problem of the S-199. One could end up with the same problem in a P-51 too, if not careful enough. It was also frequently present on late marque Spitfires with the Griffon engine. What surprises me, that Lou Lenard wasn’t sensitive enough to feel this effect while applying power, coming from the USMC, flying Corsairs. The Corsair was well known to be very unforgiving when slow and applying full throttle. A lot of pilots in the F4U were killed simply trying to perform a go around from a too slow airspeed (which again was not the problem, but the too insensitive application of full power too soon). The aileron force was simply not enough to counteract the torque.
With all due respect, you can't compare the 199s to the Corsairs, it had a much more problematic attitude and was more unstable. This is well documented. And as you say, Lenard would have handled it correctly (or at least better) with his experience, had he expected such a low performance. Actually, his experience was probably what saved his life in that first flight, but his impressions (and swearing) after the flight gave no room to doubts about this aircraft's problems.
@@WillyWeiss-HH Apparently there were people and/or techniques who/which managed to handle the 199, since not every take off or landing with it resulted in a crash. I guess.
The 109s with Daimler Benz engines already showed that behavior. In fact, it was a take off procedure to lock the tail wheel strait to help control it during take off acceleration. But it was the way things were done at the time. Equipment and life were cheap... It wasn't until the 60's that two-place fighters for training became a universal thing, because they were much more expensive than WW2 era aircraft.
@@magoid To lock the tailwheel „straight“ for takeoff and landing is a common feature on most taildraggers, especially the higher powered ones. I have a 450hp Stearman and it’s procedure there. I once owned a Zlin 526F. Though I wouldn’t call that one particularly „high-powered“ (180hp), it had quite a strong „automatic“ self centering spring mechanism to lock the tailwheel for take off and landing. So, in order to move it around on ground you had to push the fuselage sideways quite strongly to unlock the tailwheel.
@@MothaLuva Sure, but then there is likelihood of such an event on general level. Now add adverse weather condition i.e. crosswind in direction that increases torque effect. Now add need to get out of the critical condition because you need to do go-around or there is a scramble situation. And stress increases chances to suddenly apply full throttle. Plus there is question of the time you have for training to-be-pilots. Mig-15 had some sort of similarly dangerous behaviour like pulling the stick too soon after disconnecting with ground or applying full throttle at low speed just about ground
For the record , when I visited the Israeli Air Force museum in Southern Israel , I saw , and photographed a MK 9 Spitfire bought from Czechoslovakia (one of a total of 60 ) which was flown to Israel during operation Velveeta ( not all the planes purchased ,made it to Israel , some were impounded by the Greeks , after crash landing in Cyprus
When a huge war meets its end, what always remains behind are the millions of firearms, and there are always buyers, it's just a matter of price and quantity.
There has always been a bit of conflict over whether Jewish interests using their own funds and resources were able to purchase all the various equipment that it did from Czechoslovakia and other sources. Supposedly the CIA secretly provided the cash and connections for these deals to go through. The British were heavily invested with the Arabs at this time and did not want to anger them by providing support to the Jews. Both Britain, France and the US had made it clear before the war that they did not want millions of Jewish immigrants entering their countries. Sadly they could have possibly saved a few million Jews if they had accepted the offer made by the Germans to admit most of the three million German Jews back around 1935 and 1936, but there was a strong anti Jewish lobby at that time and so those Jews were left to be their fates. After the war a pro Israel lobby popped up and soon the Czechs were doing business with the Jews. The Czechs were quite anti Jewish but American dollars were enough to convince them to do the deals that provided tanks, artillery small arms ammo and of course the former 109s. Just as bizarre was the fact that some of the first tanks in the Israeli army were former panzer mark IVs and various others vehicles. That story would be worth watching.
The S-199 wasn't called a knife, this is a translation error of a translation error. The Israelis, or the foreign volunteers at least called it a Messer, short for Messerschmitt, which of course means knife-smith. Some have hence translated Messer to Sakeen (Hebrew for knife), and hence now back to English as Knife. Nope, it wasn't called a Knife, nor a Sakeen, but a Messer.
Excellent!!! Finally a great video on Avia S199! Many details I didn't know about and interesting footage too. Gonna watch it again couple of times muhaha ha. Cheers mate
Avia S-199 was an improvised plane from World War II surplus. It was like to put a bus engine into racing car. That may sound silly, but if all you have are car chassis and bus engines, then it makes sense. Considering the rapid progress in aerospace industries after the WWII those parts would have become obsolete anyway. Avia S-199 was a plane with many flaws but it worked nonetheless. Is a Czech person I feel a sense of pride for providing newly founded state of Israel with weapons (not only these fighters). Thank you for making this documentary. 👍
Thanks for the informative video. The deep ironary of so many Nazi / German origion weapons and and machines saved Israel, the very people destined to be erased with them in the first place . From guns to vehicles, ordinance and field equipment, and .... planes, 🛩 the israli use of allied aircraft and equipment is well documented, the irony of axis equipment is relegated to forgotten history
@@steffenrosmus9177 Any luck Very interesting the way history twists and turns, but what is taught is so very lineal.....You tube links or other links for more?
Post war Francoist Spain had the Buchón, a Bf 109 with the famous Merlin engine from the Spitfire as it was much more common after the war. They were used as attack aircrafts until the 60s and were the Bf 109 E that you can see in the famous British movie ''The Battle of Britain''.
Efectivamente, en España lo tuvimos en servicio hasta los 60s.. Para el ataque al suelo, estaba armado con cañones Oerlikon.. Su magnifico motor Merlín, junto a la helice de cuatro palas le daban una impresionante velocidad de trepada, aunque tenía fama de avión dificil de pilotar.. Saludos!
I always found it interesting seeing where weapons end up in the "second hand market." I heard that France used Japanese Zeroes in Vietnam, and of course the Syrian Tigers and Panzers are famous.
I believe it was actually the Ki43 Hayabusa that France used in Indochina. I have seen photos of French Oscar's, but never saw a photo of a French A6M. Not saying it didn't happen, just know that the Ki43 has photographic proof.
This is one of my country's engineering products I'm not really proud of...though it is a case of "fashioning a fart into a marble", as we say. I saw the one displayed in Prague-Kbely (if you're in Prague, it's a must see!) and it was impressive to see an aircraft so storied.
Israel owes a great part of its success in its independence war to the Czech. They were the only ones willing to sell arms to Israel, while all the nations that voted for the partition plan refused to do a damn thing to support it, or actively acted against it - yes, I am looking at you USA, Britain and France. Israel got from the Czech also many small arms and other equipment. Sure S-199 was a piece of crap, but a very much needed piece! It did the job and the rest is history.
@@rararnanan7244 Yep, they also smuggled some B-17's through "us" (without the Norden sights). I don't even know if this was before or after the commie coup, and whose idea it was to go forward with it...I should read on it, shouldn't I?
@@vaclav_fejt It was after the coup. Stalin hoped he would get the Israel under the red flag... he could not be more wrong. Vladimír Clementis, at that time the Secretary of the Foreign Affairs was instrumental in the operation. Later executed by his own comrades.
There is little wonder in that, as the chassis married bomber engine and proppeler that were meant to be counteracted by being mounted off center on He-111 and by the torc of it's second engine. On s.199 it just added to whatever negatives there were on Me-109. Also the engine was not as powerful or responsive.
@@taylorc2542 It was powerful, but also had some nasty characteristics according to the pilots. It was not designed to be easier of the pilots and the ground crews like the Fw-190 was.
7:23 My uncle, Phil Marmelstein, perched on the cowling, was one of the ferry pilots who brought the S.199 to Israel. He went on to "Operation Magic Carpet", flying refugees in from Yemen and Iran in Constellations...
It was well known that the ME 109's ground handling characteristics were difficult in its standard form with the DB engine - the landing gear had a narrow stance and a ground loop could happen at any time. Combine that with the heavy torque and broad propeller of the S-199 and I can see why it was a beast on the ground.
Not only Ezer Weizman would eventually become the commander of the IAF, he also became later-on, the president of Israel. He was a relative of Haim Weizman, the first president of Israel and a talented scientist (whose inventions helped-out Britain in its war efforts).
Great content. My grandmother's cousin wrote a book about this. Her husband was part of a group of aircraft mechanics that refurbished and flew the surplus cargo aircraft used to smuggle these planes and other armaments out of Europe for the Israeli government. The planes would come off the assembly line, be test flown once, then the wings were removed and the fuselage would be loaded into the cargo plane with just enough room for the wings to slide in beside it. Then a very risky flight to the Middle East avoiding the wrong airspace. I'm glad to see pictures of these 109s with their weird engines. I always wondered. The whole messer means 'knife" thing. Someone is trying to clean up history. I believe they were called "Messerschmitts", but the "schm" was pronounced "sh". Most of the pilots spoke English.
The Messerschmitt was named after the designer Wilhelm Messerschmitt. He designed passenger planes later making the iconic fighters we all know and love.
One of the noteworthy pilots who flew the S.199 in the original Israeli Airforce was Chris Magee, a leading ace during WW2 in the famous Black Sheep Squadron, VMF 214.
You learn something new any other day ... I - for one - didn't know that the israeli Army used license-built BF109s. I knew that Spain had some. And Switzerland. But ... well ... they did their jobs. Sort of. Thanks for sharing !
Die Schweizer Flugwaffe hat auch deutsche Flugzeuge abgeschossen mit Bf 109, die auf dem Weg nach Frankreich über Schweizer Gebiet geflogen sind. Hermann Goehring war sehr sauer, es wurde dann untersagt, um die Nazis nicht zu provozieren. The Swiss Air Force also shot down German planes with Bf 109 flying over Swiss territory en route to France. Hermann Goehring was very angry, it was then forbidden in order not to provoke the Nazis.
@@jochensch8821 Das hatten Sie auch mit einer Fw 190 Dora versucht, der Pilot hatte amerikanische Begleitjägern bekämpft und war über die Schweiz geraten. Von da an hatte die Schweiz 2 Bf109 weniger. Die Schweiz hatte auch viele amerikanische Flugzeuge zur Landung gezwungen.
@@carlnapp4412 Nun wenn neutral dann richtig. Es gibt da einen Witz den ich einmal gelesen habe. Amerikaner überfliegen die Schweiz, die Luftüberwachung funkt an. Sie überfliegen die neutrale Schweiz. Amerikaner: das wissen wir. Verlassen sie den Luftraum, sonst müssen wir schiessen. Amerikaner: das wissen wir. Es wird geschossen. Amerikaner: Sie schiessen zu niedrig Schweizer: das wissen wir. Ich habe im TV auch einen Bericht gesehen, über US-Bomberbesatzungen die technischen Probleme hatten und in der Schweiz landeten. Sie durften nicht mehr starten und man musste sie auch internieren.
So so. When 109 was used on grass airfields idealy with wet grass it was better than operated them on asphalt airfield. Some German group used them around Q4/1944 in Austria on asphalt and there had higher losses from a asphalt than from a enemy.
@@chadrowe8452 ….Give the 109 it’s due. When introduced it was the best in the world. It was upgraded thought out it’s production. The FW190 was a better aircraft. However in the middle of a war 109 production wasn’t going to stop. So the 109 has laurels for being the most produced fighter aircraft in history
I’ve heard there was a thick streak of anti-semitism in the Roosevelt administration which one might suppose survived into the Truman years. My guess this would have had a major influence on post war foreign policy, not some strict adherence to a neutrality policy viv-a-vis the newly formed state of Israel.
I took a course from an ex-USAF Colonel who had some direct knowledge of the early Israeli Air Force indicated that the end of these planes with the Israelis was far more ignoble than is usually mentioned.
10:43 The accidents increasing was most probably not due to the runway being unpaved. Actually, for airplanes like this an unpaved runway is more helpful and thus, safer because 1. one can more easily land straight into the wind on a strip of grass or gravel wide enough (where paved runways „produce“ crosswind more often). 2. Unpaved landing fields have usually less friction on the wheels making it more forgiving than concrete. It could produce more wear on the tyres rubber due to the skidding. But since the friction is less, the effect sort of equalizes.
exactly correct on all points. Every experienced pilot who lands on both unimproved and paved landing areas knows that the airframe takes much less stress on the (reasonably) unimproved field, landing as close as possible to wind heading. Land uphill, take off downhill if given the choice
Czech did not only sell them aircraft, they too actually sold them tons of rifles to supplement whatever the Israelis could get their hands on from the British that backed off of the Levant region. However, slight problem... It faces issues same as the planes but something more catastrophic. The Czechs made the Vz.24 rifle which was basically the same as the Kar98K the Wehrmacht was using and since it was basically the same toolings, the Germans soon ensured that the entire Skoda factory and the other arms plant in Czechoslovakia was making the Kar98K. However, the Czechs being Czechs, hated the German occupiers and they sabotaged tons of guns by basically misaligning the unadjustable front sight post of the rifle. When Israel initially got the rifles, the Czechs left out that fact and when the Hagannah initially fired it, many of the soldiers were miffed on why the gun wasn't shooting at where they were aiming till they realized that the gun's zeroing was totally botched from the get-go by the Czechs themselves but the Israeli still compensated for it as they were just happy to have guns to survive the conflict and stay afloat.
Great video. It should be mentioned that Ezer Weizman was later in his life the seventh President of Israel, first elected in 1993 and re-elected in 1998.
The US convicted or tried to those who were smuggling planes to Israel. In England they pretended to film a movie and when the plane took off, no one noticed it was flying in the wrong direction, toward Israel. It was very difficult for Israel to get heavy weapons and aircraft.
No joke. The supposed movie script had the intrepid airman parting from his girlfriend, then taking off and flying away on his mission. The plane took off and was supposed to land at another field so they could continue filming scenes, but it wasn’t noticed that the plane was not headed to the field, but another direction. By the time the deception was discovered, the plane and “film crew” were long gone. The English authorities were very angry.
The Israeli pilots heard a rumor that the Arabs had hired some ex German Luftwaffe pilots and thought of the irony of Israeli Messerschmitts against Germans flying Spitfires.
I flew this plane in war thunder and absolutely hated it. Glad to see there is a backstory to it all though. It makes it kinda cool to know the history of it.
To sum up: The aircraft was basically a piece of junk and a deathtrap with it's contribution being that it was able to bluff the enemy into maybe believing that the Israeli's had a real fighter aircraft.
By the time the former 109s got to Israel they were a bit of a Frankenstein but inside there was the remains of the world's most accomplished fighter plane. From Spain over Europe, Africa and Russia finally to the middle east it racked up more kills than any other fighter between 15 and 20 thousand. No other fighter comes close. It was like a beat up, half blind old boxer given one last shot at a title and I think it came out well on top. Once an icon of oppression it ended it's days as a freedom fighter hero to a new nation, not a bad ending.
What an interesting story Rex. While I don't know if the anecdotes, I read about the 109's ground handling problems were true for poorly trained German pilots in WW2, they certainly must have been by the time there was heavier engine with more torque was bolted onto the front.
I Czech I have few comments. For this price. We didn't help Israel, we used them. For DB605 was better unpaved airfields, well Jumo 211 wanted opposite(probably). Engine was bit bigger and could not use even small silent blocks. 605 had small from few steel pads, 601 had rubber sinetblocks so does Jumo 211 in another applications when Germany had a rubber. Bonnet was with engine contact on more places than around weapons and air intakes, what caused more vibrations. Jumo 211 can't use "motorkanone" and shot through a propeler. Although J211 had lower power output, generated more heat. Jumo 211 had bigger displacement and needer bit more oil despite its crankshaft up. Pilot who survived can say Ive got skill and luck.
In Prague, I saw in Jehovov a plaque thanking Israel for its support. Hardly anyone wanted to sell weapons to Israel. A lot of things had to be smuggled, since the state as a customer did not exist yet. The Arab states, however, bought a lot of material which was surplus after the war.
For the price: It was shameful, but it was a business. Israel needed the planes and Czechoslovakia had them. The state of Israel was in its infancy at that time and the risk that it will fail was significant and so was the political risk of selling military equipment to such country. The Americans and Soviets were neutral at its best, Arabs where strong enemies, Brits and French both had their own interests in middle East and were anti-Israel. Czechoslovakia was one of the few countries willing to help and we were also under pressure from north East and West. Soviets banned the latest shipments of arms after they figured out that despite all the kibuces Isreal is not going to go the communist way. Money mean very little in a war where you fighting for your own existence. Badly equipped and overpriced air force is way better than no air force at all.
The irony of Israel using a German design ! I'm sure it helped boost morale slightly to know that they not only won the war, but also took the enemies' best fighter.
@@yoamal1187 You can say it, but you'd be wrong. Just because it was in service for six years doesn't make it the best. Which would you say was the best US fighter of the war? Was it the Brewster Buffalo, or the Bell Airacobra? (both were used from the start of the war until it ended, which - by your logic - make them jointly the best US fighters).
The Bf109 are unstabil for take of and landing too, but thank new propeller with higher air resistance and gyro-moment, the unstability dramaticly escaled. Standart take off- was finished with 90 gradus curve.
The irony of the vaunted Messerschmitt being the savior of Israel is something that only a Hollywood movie writer could have come up with but if you believe in a higher being or karma or some such it does feel like the former Nazi fighter was chosen to perform this special task and there can be no doubt it achieved much more than it's mere combat record shows. The former 109 is now forever enshrined in the history of Israel. It is a testament to its design and planning and perhaps fitting that the greatest fighter plane of all time performed it's most important mission at the end of its career helping to usher in a new nation and perhaps redeem it's darker beginnings
The Israeli air force is successful today because it has some of the bravest pilots in the world and some of the most advanced jets in the world. But it started with only brave pilots, really REALLY brave pilots who had to fly into combat in death traps.
Those pictures of surplus airplanes going to the scrap yard at the end of WW2 breaks my heart. The waste of machines when they are no longer needed as soon as they become obsolete makes me question our sanity.
I once saw a description for how badly the plan was scraped together: imagine a car, built from the chassis of a sedan, with the engine of a truck and the wheels of a tractor...
Thanks! I am working on a video series called "Tales of the (insert air force name here)" which will somewhat cover the chronological histories of various air forces. Its a lot of work and research so you may not see these for a little while let :)
Virgin Israelis: we had to stop using half of the guns on the aircraft you sold us because they kept shooting off the engine propellers Chad Czechs: skill issue
@@IdoDekel-do7hh I know, and I absolutely agree with you. I have the highest respect for the Israelis. I was referring to some other nations who hand out medals for merely attending courses. I am ex South African Army, and in my day, if you saw one medal on a soldier, you knew it was well-earned. I will not speak badly of the Israeli Defence Force.
I don't know if it's pilot skill or lack there of but it is interesting to note that 109s that had the wrong engine and prop were STILL able to mix it up with spitfires and come out on top several times.
You have to consider the pilots. On the Israeli side there were American and British veterans of WW2 with combat experience, against inexperienced and poorly trained Arab pilots.
Incorrect title: the Avia S.199 is not a German WW2 fighter. It is a Czech post-war development of a German WW2 fighter. Makes one wonder how many similar inaccuracies one will find in the video itself.
I've got some hairs if you need to split any more..... Given that all they did was stick a different engine in it, I wouldn't consider that as so much development that the title is incorrect....
@@notsureyou “Given that all they did was stick a different engine in it” >>Not true. The Junkers Jumo 211F (and propeller) did not allow for the use of the “Motorkanone” (central cannon mount), so that was deleted. So that was the main armament, gone. Also, to make up for the loss of the cannon, they installed cowl-mounted MG-131 machine guns under the wings. So, contrary to your argument that “all they did was stick a different engine in it”, they also had to a) use a different propeller, b) delete the central cannon mount, and c) install cowl-mounted machine guns. “I wouldn't consider that as so much development” >> It was not a development. It made the planes much worse. (More on this, later). “so much development that the title is incorrect....” >>The title is incorrect. The Avia S.199 is not a German WW2 fighter. It is a Czech post-war development of a German WW2 fighter. Not the same. “I've got some hairs if you need to split any more” >>One the one hand I want to be as dismissive as you, and simply ask “where am I splitting hairs?” But the astonishing ignorance inherent in your comment prevents me from treating you in the same way as you are treating me. They replaced a fighter engine (Daimler-Benz DB 605) with a bomber engine (Junkers Jumo 211) and propeller. Judging by your flippant comment, you seem to think that this is insignificant. The resulting aircraft was (by Israeli accounts) unreliable, difficult to maintain, unresponsive (especially at take-off and landing altitudes), over-torqued (due to the heavy, wooden bomber-propeller), suffered from too much drag due to the cowl-mounted machine guns, heavy, and with insufficient firepower. The Bf-109 was not an easy aircraft to control, and was known to be a handful, even to experienced pilots. This was - in a large part -due to its heavy wing-loading. The addition of the cowl-mounted machine guns (due to them “sticking in another engine”) compounded this. A senior Luftwaffe pilot described the handling characteristics of the later Bf-109 as “malevolent”. So any degradation in handling would be disastrous. The extra torque/weight/drag/ was obviously enough to make the S-199 a real 'Mule'. The Bf-109 was a very difficult plane to land, due to its high wing-loading, small rudder and narrow undercarriage. “All they did was stick a different engine in it”. This increased the landing speed to 200km/h, making the plane even more difficult to land. It was difficult enough with the Daimler engine, so the torque-heavy Jumo must have made it well-nigh impossible. This, according to you, is “splitting hairs”. The S.199 was structurally heavier than the Bf-109, because they used inferior construction materials. This is not good for an underpowered fighter aircraft. The Jumo engine, and especially the wooden propeller, was aerodynamically inferior to the Bf-109. Not good for an underpowered fighter aircraft. Due to the fact that the Jumo engine had so much more torque, they had to add a bulge to the fin, to try and counter the torque problem. The synchronisation of the underwing machine gun sometimes failed, causing the machine guns to fire into the oversized wooden propeller. But, according to you, “all they did was stick a different engine in it”. All they did was not to just stick a different engine in it. They fundamentally changed the aircraft and its characteristics. The Avia S.199 is not a German fighter and it did not save Israel. You defend a clearly factually incorrect title and you denigrate a factually correct comment. Is this also the case in other areas of your life? What you tried to achieve with your vacuous comment is well and truly beyond my comprehension. I encourage you to make your riposte more substantive, logical, and robust.
@@AviViljoen They didn't install cowling mounted machine guns to make up for the loss of the main armament. The 13mm cowling mounted machine guns were standard in the Bf109 from the G6 onwards (Early 1943). The gondola (under wing) mounted canons were a standard optional fitment on all wartime Bf109's from the F series onwards, and was known as the Rüstsatz VI kit. The synchronizer issue that you mention as is also mentioned in the video had to do with the cowling mounted machine guns, not the underwing gondola canons (as these did not fire through the propeller) The Bf109 was not known to be a handful in the air, yes take off and landing was interesting for new pilots (and many new pilots had accidents because of the fear they had of the aircrafts take off and landing qualities). Yes it had a higher wing loading than a Spitfire, but it also had a lower wing loading than a P51 I don't doubt that the changes that were made, caused the aircraft to become an absolute pig. But given what I would call minimal changes compared to the original design, In that it was a German ww2 fighter design, that was later adapted to take a different German engine (with other minor changes, like using a He111 propeller, and deleting the centrally mounted canon) So an inferior derivative yes, but the changes are not enough to claim that the title is incorrect. As essentially the the airframe is near identical, just a different engine and propeller. In one of the first attacks they stopped the advance of the Egyptian army, when they were about 40 km's south of Tel Aviv. This was due to the effect that the attack had on the Egyptian army morale, rather than the aircraft showing any form excellent ground attack qualities. So the claim that the Aircraft type saved Israel is correct given this, and especially considering that upon the types arrival, that the balance of airpower shifted in favour of Israel.
@@notsureyou Thank you for a rational, considered response. “They didn't install cowling mounted machine guns to make up for the loss of the main armament.” >> I know. I mentioned it to counter your argument that “all they did was stick a different engine in it”. “The 13mm cowling mounted machine guns were standard in the Bf109 from the G6 onwards (Early 1943). The gondola (under wing) mounted canons were a standard optional fitment on all wartime Bf109's from the F series onwards, and was known as the Rüstsatz VI kit.” >>So was it standard or was it optional? It was optional, and it was common, but it wasn’t standard. “The synchronizer issue that you mention as is also mentioned in the video had to do with the cowling mounted machine guns, not the underwing gondola canons (as these did not fire through the propeller)” >>Not for the Bf-109, but it became a problem for the S.199 after they fitted the larger He-III propellers. “The Bf109 was not known to be a handful in the air, yes take off and landing was interesting for new pilots” >>I agree with you on this. I didn’t make my point clear enough. What I should have said was that take-off and landing became more difficult with the S.199’s reduced power, reduced responsiveness, increased torque, increased drag, and increased weight. It follows logically that these qualities also caused the S.199 to be inferior to the Bf-109 in the air (supporting my argument that the difference between the Bf-109 and the S.199 didn’t come down to a matter of “all they did was stick a different engine in it”. “(and many new pilots had accidents because of the fear they had of the aircrafts take off and landing qualities).” >>Of course I don’t have figures, but I would suspect that pilots had accidents more because the plane was difficult to take off and land rather than just because of fear. “Yes it had a higher wing loading than a Spitfire, but it also had a lower wing loading than a P51” >>That’s not the point. The point is that while the Bf-109 already had a high wing loading, the changes they made to the S.199 increased that wing loading, reducing its ease of handling. “I don't doubt that the changes that were made, caused the aircraft to become an absolute pig. But given what I would call minimal changes compared to the original design,” >>Changes which adversely affect almost all of the characteristics of the plane to such an extent that it becomes non-viable in combat are hardly minimal. “In that it was a German ww2 fighter design, that was later adapted to take a different German engine” >>It wasn’t merely a different engine. The original engine was designed and built for fighter aircraft. The Jumo was built specifically for bombers. There is a difference, and judging from your other comments on this forum I suspect that you know why this is relevant. Also, just because it’s German doesn’t make it equal. “(with other minor changes, like using a He111 propeller, and deleting the centrally mounted canon)” >>The changes might have been minor, but their impact was drastic by all accounts. “So an inferior derivative yes, but the changes are not enough to claim that the title is incorrect.” >>The title is incorrect. If you were to call a Kfir a Mirage 5 because one is based on the other, you would be wrong there as well. Is a VW Golf and a Skoda and a SEAT the same thing with interchangeable names? No. One is built in Germany, the other, inferior derivative or not, is built in the Czech Republic. Not the same. (Alternately: get yourself a German car - say, a BMW 5-series. Now remove the engine, and stick in a completely different German engine - say a VW TDi. Now tell me your car is the same). You might as well argue that the Spitfire Mk XIII is the same as the Spitfire XII - they just stuck a different engine in it. “As essentially the the airframe is near identical” >>But it is not, and I suspect you know this. Different materials, different reinforcements, and again, I suspect you know this. “just a different engine and propeller.” >>Even if this was true - and it is not - it is a fundamentally different aircraft, with fundamentally different characteristics. “In one of the first attacks they stopped the advance of the Egyptian army, when they were about 40 km's south of Tel Aviv. This was due to the effect that the attack had on the Egyptian army morale, rather than the aircraft showing any form excellent ground attack qualities. So the claim that the Aircraft type saved Israel is correct given this, and especially considering that upon the types arrival, that the balance of airpower shifted in favour of Israel.” >>Although the S.199 undoubtedly played a significant role, and was a much-needed tool, I have no doubt that it was the Israelis who saved Israel. Thank you again for a cognitive, mature reply to my post.
@@AviViljoen The underwing gondolas were fitted as needed (attacking bombers etc), and at other times it was up to the pilot pilots preference (just doing a fighter sweep for example). In this context the word standard means that it wasn't a kit that was made up by one unit, so in todays language it would be an optional OEM kit (or equipment like a tow bar). In your first paragraph you "c" point mentioned the installation of cowl mounted machine guns, which is why brought it up. Correct the synchronizer issue was ironed out in the BF109 (it was an issue when they first transitioned from the 7.96mm guns to the 13mm guns according to Galland in his book), But reappeared when they changed the propeller when making the Mule. I 100% agree that the minor changes had a big affect (and not in any good way) on the handling of the aircraft. But they were again minor changes, And as an aside a pilot that has flown both a "normal" BF109 and one of the "Spanish 109's" has commented that even those aircraft had had at least one difference in flying characteristics that was not good. So perhaps a better title for the video should be: "The Czechoslovakian derivative of a German ww2 fighter that was used to save Israel" Yes the sheer will of the Israelis is what gave them the strength to fight as hard as they did, but sheer will without a weapons won't win.
Hi Rex, one of the oldest surviving WW2 Luftwaffe pilpts Hans Ekard-Bobb had commented that due to the Bf.109s narrow-track undercarridge a lot of inexperienced pilots were killed on takeoffs and landings, my latest drawing is that of an Avia S.199
Ahh, yes. Take a plane known for poor ground handling and torque issues... stick a bomber engine in it. What could possiblie go wrong? Great video! Really love this new channel. The era just after WW2 is something I know so little about, so this was really interesting.
There were all kinds of German munitions exported from Post war, recreated Czechoslovakia. Anything and Everything that had the benefit of not having to cut corners during the production and not being carpet and firebombed by the Western Allies. The piston engine German aircraft were still of a very high technological level that would only be improved with American High test gasoline and and the adoption of superchargers. Small arms like K98k Mausers were and still are in the USA today in very good condition with winter trigger guards from the Bruenn rifle plant (or Brno in Czech.) Surprisingly, the German assault rifles, the MP44s that were manufactured in very high numbers, around 1 million of them, don't seem to have been sold to Israel in any big numbers. Perhaps they weren't available in the post war Czech areas.
Was just wondering . All the problems with the s199s engine. How did the FW190D get on so well with it? It seems to have the same short fat bladed propeller and the same engine as used in the HE111H
With those big props, it would have been a deadly fighter at high altitudes. But it seems like most of the battles were fought at low altitudes and ground attack where it was not well suited for at all.
Error: The S-199's were brought in by primarily by 11-12 surplus purchased C-46's Commandos (the first one crashed with an S-199 aboard) that had been purchased the US. The Israelis had also purchased 2 C-54's which probably also carried some as well as maybe the C-69 that Israel I think purchased.
I wonder how long the Checks got the Me-262 engines to last when they where able to use proper materials in the construction of the engines? The Germans had to replace engines after 10 hours of usage because of the lack of proper materials.
Jumo 004As had a service life of about 200 hours before major overalls. To put this into perspective the first Meteors' engines had about a 150 hour life span.
@@southernbear736 Production and maintenance of the 004 was done at the Junkers works at Magdeburg, under the supervision of Otto Hartkopf. Completed engines earned a reputation for unreliability; the time between major overhauls (not technically a time between overhaul) was thirty to fifty hours, and may have been as low as ten,
@@lambastepirate Those are not the engines I'm referring too. The Jumo 004A is the pre production engine, used for in the prototype Me 262s built without material restrictions, of which had a engine rebuilt period of about 200 hours. The *production* Jumo 004B however is a very different story. Built without the nickel and other rare metals required for the high temperatures, Junkers came up with an Aluminium ablative coating to coat the fan blades and combustion chamber, which would wear down over time just like the heat shield on a space craft. The Bs had an average time between engine rebuilds of about 25-26 hours for the average pilot. As you have stated a good pilot could make them last for up to 50-60 hours with proper throttle control.
So the Israelis had a second rate plane with very "strange" handling as well as pilots not propperly trained on this plane, yet they beat the pants of the spitfires flown by the invading forces. What a great story.
@@IronWarhorsesFun The only ones who suffered were those who attacked Israel. So why would you expect anyone to be nice to attackers who have another holocaust in mind?
Wow, it must be terrifying to know that you shot off your own propellers in a plane that cant even take off without spinining like its pinned on one side Also, nice pfp you chose for your 2nd channel ;)
In the beginning, the Israeli's had to make due with a lot of surplus military gear. Look up the story of the surplus B-17's they bought in the US ... and bombed Cairo with on the trip to Israel. A weapon they had better luck with were bolt-action K-98 Mauser rifles. Although a lot of them were battlefield pick-ups, or those made by the Czech's, Fabrique Nationale in Belgium made entirely brand new ones for Israeli due to the poor treatment accorded the Jews by Great Britain. All of these rifles were chambered in 7.62x51 and remained in service until the early 1970's. I own one the those built by FN. It is in excellent shape and a great shooter.
If it hadn't been for politics Israel would have been whole even back in 1948. Israel had the manpower to fight the Arabs and it sure as hell had the money to buy all the weapons it needed but it didn't have the equipment because barely anyone was willing to sell weapons to Israel.
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The irony that the two main adversaries of WW2 ended up fighting against each other, Israeli Mezeks and Egyptian Spitfires is quite astounding….
both sides used the DC 3 , the Egyptians adapted ( some of) theirs to bombers !!
don't worry it's just team balancing
where you put them in the opposite team
Not to forger Spitfires! Both sides had them.
On the ground, Israeli Shermans fought Syrian Panzer IV-H tanks. Ironic.
@@spaghetti_rookie The Israelis 'souped' the Shermans up, putting bigger guns om and stuffl
It's so funny to see the Avia S 199 lined up next to a P 51 D and a Supermarine spitfire , all with the same national markings , as is the case in the Israeli Air Force museum in Southern Israel
It’s like something out of Ace Combat
It's the easiest way to verify it has been the Zionists maggots who have been behind all wars and civil conflicts for the past 300 years by the fact when they pulled off the biggest real estate scam in history and established modern day Israel they just happen to have weapons and ordnance used by all sides from the conflict known as World War Two.
The Finnish Air Force could match this. During WWII They flew German, Italian, British, American French, Dutch & Soviet aircraft
Same way it's odd to see ex Syrian panzer IVs in there museum.
they had to fight for survival almost immediatly. they took anything they could get
Gideon Lichtman (we knew him then as Mr. Ramon) was a teacher at the high school I went to in southwest Miami, Florida. He was a great "life advice coach" to us youngsters as he'd seen so much in his own life. It was hilarious to hear him say things (or curse) in Yiddish, thinking no one would know what he'd said. I'd had some exposure to that as a little kid and cracked up laughing one day when he cursed out an ornery overhead projector with a few really choice words, totally taking him by surprise. He did talk to me about his aviation background a bit, as my dad had also been a WWII aviation guy, and was still working in that field at Eastern Air Lines. He was the kind of good person you will always remember.
I have loved aviation since my early teens. Read a huge amount of aviation history. Eventually had a 37 year career flying everything from the DC-3 to the B777. And this is the first I have read of the Avia S.199! Beautifully produced video. No odd photos thrown in of aircraft not actually S.199s. Great job and thanks a lot!
Dave, I agree with you about the quality of this video but... you got it wrong about "No odd photos thrown in of aircraft not actually S.199s". NOT. Checkout the image at 7:35. A handsome young F4U pilot standing in front of his steed. (Why do they do that?)
Also... do terms like " U-control or .049 Thimble drome or Dooling .29 mean anything to you?
@@demiurgiac Yes, those terms are very familiar. My interests ran more to scale plastic models though. I had a huge collection, mostly WWII.
Don’t know what happened to all of them, but I do have a few on my bookcase I have built recently of A/C I have actually flown. DC3, C46, and F27. Have DC6 and B727 kits I will get around to someday.
@@demiurgiac The guy standing in front of the F4U was one of the first volunteers to fly the S199 for Israel, so the photo is really not that out of place
@@davidkallewaard750 Touché
The Israeli Air Force also came close to getting one of the most storied fighter aces of world war 2 at that time. George Beurling, who shot down 27 aircraft over Malta in 1942, was on his way to Israel when his plane crashed in Italy under suspicious circumstances.
George Beurling of the R.C.A.F. was a legend of his time. May his memory be blessed.
He was flying cargo. He crashed while taking off from Rome. There are no records stating he was to join the Israeli Air force. Which he might not have done, as he was against oppressors.
Beurling was buried in Rome originally, but in 1950 his body was exhumed and re-buried (with the permission of his family) in the Kibbutz Yagar cemetery near Haifa in Israel. The Israeli Air Force provided an honor guard for the funeral. His family would not have allowed this unless he wished this.
@@cirrus1964 The Israelis were hardly considered "oppressors" at this time.
Patrick Watson had a series "The Canadians" and one chapter was on Beurling. It is right here on You Tube. It was produced in the early 90's so some of the people who knew him were still alive.
He was offered a lot of money to fly for the Arabs, and asked his father, who told him he thought that if he did he would be fighting for the wrong side.
Don't take my word for it. The video is right here if you search it up.
It is well worth watching in my opinion.
Imagine how effective the first fighter squadrons of the Israeli Airforce could have been if only the Czechs had not lost all those DB605s in the factory fire!
Já myslím že i s S199 byly úspěšní když existuje stát jménem Izrael.
But then I'm not sure Israelis would have gotten them. One of the reason for Czechs selling the 199 to the Israeli air force was that their pilots refused to fly the "mules", having received the months prior to the Israeli war of independence better and more reliable airplanes from the USSR.
@@WillyWeiss-HH Největší důvod prodeje nejen těchto letadel ale i přebytečných zbraní a nábojů bylo získání peněz pro nastupující komunistickou vládu. Dokonce nedávno Češi natočili film Toman kdy český komunista židovského původu jménem Toman v padesátých letech organizoval migrační vlny židů z Polska a Sovětského svazu přes Československo na jih Evropy. Za každou osobu komunisté inkasovali peníze od Americké židovské organizace . Tajně.
That fire was actually a sabotage. And iirc it still is not exactly clear if it was sabotaged by german colaborants or communists guard...
@@WillyWeiss-HH Better and more reliable is more than questionable when it comes to Soviet garbage. Czechoslovakia had bunch of Spitfires (later sold to Israel as well - at least some part) that were solid and solidly built fighters. But from Soviets, they got some Lavochkins, but those ones literally rotted in some 2 years. Those wooden fuselages were deteriorating too quickly, thus albeit more powerful than S.199 they would be forces out of the service sooner.
7:44 The torque was not necessarily the problem. The problem was applying full power to soon (sometimes because the pilot is scared of a relatively short runway…) before enough airspeed had built up to make the rudder effective. This was not an exclusive problem of the S-199. One could end up with the same problem in a P-51 too, if not careful enough. It was also frequently present on late marque Spitfires with the Griffon engine.
What surprises me, that Lou Lenard wasn’t sensitive enough to feel this effect while applying power, coming from the USMC, flying Corsairs. The Corsair was well known to be very unforgiving when slow and applying full throttle.
A lot of pilots in the F4U were killed simply trying to perform a go around from a too slow airspeed (which again was not the problem, but the too insensitive application of full power too soon). The aileron force was simply not enough to counteract the torque.
With all due respect, you can't compare the 199s to the Corsairs, it had a much more problematic attitude and was more unstable. This is well documented. And as you say, Lenard would have handled it correctly (or at least better) with his experience, had he expected such a low performance. Actually, his experience was probably what saved his life in that first flight, but his impressions (and swearing) after the flight gave no room to doubts about this aircraft's problems.
@@WillyWeiss-HH Apparently there were people and/or techniques who/which managed to handle the 199, since not every take off or landing with it resulted in a crash. I guess.
The 109s with Daimler Benz engines already showed that behavior. In fact, it was a take off procedure to lock the tail wheel strait to help control it during take off acceleration.
But it was the way things were done at the time. Equipment and life were cheap... It wasn't until the 60's that two-place fighters for training became a universal thing, because they were much more expensive than WW2 era aircraft.
@@magoid To lock the tailwheel „straight“ for takeoff and landing is a common feature on most taildraggers, especially the higher powered ones. I have a 450hp Stearman and it’s procedure there. I once owned a Zlin 526F. Though I wouldn’t call that one particularly „high-powered“ (180hp), it had quite a strong „automatic“ self centering spring mechanism to lock the tailwheel for take off and landing.
So, in order to move it around on ground you had to push the fuselage sideways quite strongly to unlock the tailwheel.
@@MothaLuva Sure, but then there is likelihood of such an event on general level. Now add adverse weather condition i.e. crosswind in direction that increases torque effect. Now add need to get out of the critical condition because you need to do go-around or there is a scramble situation. And stress increases chances to suddenly apply full throttle. Plus there is question of the time you have for training to-be-pilots.
Mig-15 had some sort of similarly dangerous behaviour like pulling the stick too soon after disconnecting with ground or applying full throttle at low speed just about ground
For some unimaginable reason I love this plane. Thanks for such great coverage and your obvious passion for this subject.
For the record , when I visited the Israeli Air Force museum in Southern Israel , I saw , and photographed a MK 9 Spitfire bought from Czechoslovakia (one of a total of 60 ) which was flown to Israel during operation Velveeta ( not all the planes purchased ,made it to Israel , some were impounded by the Greeks , after crash landing in Cyprus
Besides the planes Czechoslovakia sold them a ton of other critical arms.
Infantry weapons
34,500 P-18 rifles
5,515 MG 34 machine guns with 10,000 ammo belts
10,000 vz.24 bayonets
900 vz. 37 heavy machine guns
500 vz. 27 pistols
12 ZK-383 submachine guns
10 ZK 420 semi-automatic rifles
500 vz. 26 light machine guns (shipped, yet delivery not confirmed in Czech sources)
Infantry ammunition
91,500,000 7.92×57mm Mauser cartridges
15,000,000 9mm Parabellum cartridges
375,000 13mm cartridges for MG 131
150,000 20mm cartridges for MG 151
375,000 7.65mm cartridges for vz. 27 pistol
Aircraft
25 Avia S-199 fighters
61 Supermarine Spitfire Mk. IX fighters
Thanks for those numbers!
Buď zdráv, Vlasovče!
When a huge war meets its end, what always remains behind are the millions of firearms, and there are always buyers, it's just a matter of price and quantity.
@@WillyWeiss-HH end user certificate , what's that ?!!!
True..CZ heros.
Tatra was way ahead of German designs and Jawa made awesome bikes.
I am Golem from Prague 🗿
שלום
There has always been a bit of conflict over whether Jewish interests using their own funds and resources were able to purchase all the various equipment that it did from Czechoslovakia and other sources. Supposedly the CIA secretly provided the cash and connections for these deals to go through. The British were heavily invested with the Arabs at this time and did not want to anger them by providing support to the Jews. Both Britain, France and the US had made it clear before the war that they did not want millions of Jewish immigrants entering their countries. Sadly they could have possibly saved a few million Jews if they had accepted the offer made by the Germans to admit most of the three million German Jews back around 1935 and 1936, but there was a strong anti Jewish lobby at that time and so those Jews were left to be their fates. After the war a pro Israel lobby popped up and soon the Czechs were doing business with the Jews. The Czechs were quite anti Jewish but American dollars were enough to convince them to do the deals that provided tanks, artillery small arms ammo and of course the former 109s. Just as bizarre was the fact that some of the first tanks in the Israeli army were former panzer mark IVs and various others vehicles. That story would be worth watching.
Huh...I knew the Israelis used 109s, but I always thought they were ACTUAL 109s, not a development from them due to gear shortage. interesting.
Israel would have preferred the 109's of course considering.
I mean, they basically are, just with different engines.
The S-199 wasn't called a knife, this is a translation error of a translation error. The Israelis, or the foreign volunteers at least called it a Messer, short for Messerschmitt, which of course means knife-smith. Some have hence translated Messer to Sakeen (Hebrew for knife), and hence now back to English as Knife. Nope, it wasn't called a Knife, nor a Sakeen, but a Messer.
Messer translates to knife...
when you try be smart but turns out you wrong
@@alinalexandru2466 It does, but it is a false friend.
many actually called it the 'rusted knife'. an apt description, both of the performance and how it was needed in a pinch....
Meser in Yiddish (Messer in German) means a knife
Excellent!!! Finally a great video on Avia S199! Many details I didn't know about and interesting footage too.
Gonna watch it again couple of times muhaha ha.
Cheers mate
Glad you liked it! :)
Underrated video, this is amazing content for such a small channel
Avia S-199 was an improvised plane from World War II surplus. It was like to put a bus engine into racing car. That may sound silly, but if all you have are car chassis and bus engines, then it makes sense. Considering the rapid progress in aerospace industries after the WWII those parts would have become obsolete anyway. Avia S-199 was a plane with many flaws but it worked nonetheless.
Is a Czech person I feel a sense of pride for providing newly founded state of Israel with weapons (not only these fighters).
Thank you for making this documentary. 👍
We are also kind of Newly founded or better say we were freed
Thanks for the informative video.
The deep ironary of so many Nazi / German origion weapons and and machines saved Israel, the very people destined to be erased with them in the first place .
From guns to vehicles, ordinance and field equipment, and .... planes, 🛩 the israli use of allied aircraft and equipment is well documented, the irony of axis equipment is relegated to forgotten history
Not only weapons but also SS officers to drill the new army
@@steffenrosmus9177 .....not to mention Otto Skorzeny and the fledgling Mossad!
@@steffenrosmus9177 Any luck
Very interesting the way history twists and turns, but what is taught is so very lineal.....You tube links or other links for more?
@@steffenrosmus9177 do you have a source for that
And even more ironic, from the Profile Publications issue of the Me-109, one in the Israeli Air Force sporting the SS Death's Head
Excellent work. So glad the algorithm fed me this.
A rare subject. Thanks for the video. Many people don't know about this variant of the 109.
I'm glad I've found this channel
Post war Francoist Spain had the Buchón, a Bf 109 with the famous Merlin engine from the Spitfire as it was much more common after the war. They were used as attack aircrafts until the 60s and were the Bf 109 E that you can see in the famous British movie ''The Battle of Britain''.
Efectivamente, en España lo tuvimos en servicio hasta los 60s.. Para el ataque al suelo, estaba armado con cañones Oerlikon.. Su magnifico motor Merlín, junto a la helice de cuatro palas le daban una impresionante velocidad de trepada, aunque tenía fama de avión dificil de pilotar..
Saludos!
This 109 was still shooting down Egyptian Spitfires in 1948.
I always found it interesting seeing where weapons end up in the "second hand market." I heard that France used Japanese Zeroes in Vietnam, and of course the Syrian Tigers and Panzers are famous.
The French also used German eighty eights, MG 42 etc. in French Indochina.
Not the Tiger only the Pzkw IV Ausf H and some StuG III.
I believe it was actually the Ki43 Hayabusa that France used in Indochina.
I have seen photos of French Oscar's, but never saw a photo of a French A6M. Not saying it didn't happen, just know that the Ki43 has photographic proof.
You forgot Thailand.
@@carlnapp4412 The French used a complete German SS division in Indochina.
This is one of my country's engineering products I'm not really proud of...though it is a case of "fashioning a fart into a marble", as we say. I saw the one displayed in Prague-Kbely (if you're in Prague, it's a must see!) and it was impressive to see an aircraft so storied.
Don't worry you Czechs otherwise are pretty great at engineering , so we'll let this one slide .
The Chech Republic has great aerospace industries plus they make the Prusa 3D printers that I'm so fond of. I have two.
Israel owes a great part of its success in its independence war to the Czech. They were the only ones willing to sell arms to Israel, while all the nations that voted for the partition plan refused to do a damn thing to support it, or actively acted against it - yes, I am looking at you USA, Britain and France.
Israel got from the Czech also many small arms and other equipment. Sure S-199 was a piece of crap, but a very much needed piece! It did the job and the rest is history.
@@rararnanan7244 Yep, they also smuggled some B-17's through "us" (without the Norden sights). I don't even know if this was before or after the commie coup, and whose idea it was to go forward with it...I should read on it, shouldn't I?
@@vaclav_fejt It was after the coup. Stalin hoped he would get the Israel under the red flag... he could not be more wrong. Vladimír Clementis, at that time the Secretary of the Foreign Affairs was instrumental in the operation. Later executed by his own comrades.
I learned a lot from this movie. I didn't know these stories. Thank you.
Thanks for a very informative video! I knew about the Israeli Avias, but the details you provided are enlightening! Subbed!
Im really happy I found your channel. It's cool find a small channel and watching it grow.
There is a very nice map of most aviation crashes that happened in Czech rep., the S.199 is one of the most common type overall.
There is little wonder in that, as the chassis married bomber engine and proppeler that were meant to be counteracted by being mounted off center on He-111 and by the torc of it's second engine. On s.199 it just added to whatever negatives there were on Me-109. Also the engine was not as powerful or responsive.
Bf-109 was a great plane, but has a terrible human rights record considering who used it.
@@taylorc2542 It was powerful, but also had some nasty characteristics according to the pilots. It was not designed to be easier of the pilots and the ground crews like the Fw-190 was.
@@taylorc2542 The Bf109 is a plane, a machine. It has no human rights record.
7:23 My uncle, Phil Marmelstein, perched on the cowling, was one of the ferry pilots who brought the S.199 to Israel. He went on to "Operation Magic Carpet", flying refugees in from Yemen and Iran in Constellations...
It was well known that the ME 109's ground handling characteristics were difficult in its standard form with the DB engine - the landing gear had a narrow stance and a ground loop could happen at any time. Combine that with the heavy torque and broad propeller of the S-199 and I can see why it was a beast on the ground.
TX for a very interesting and unreported tale of desperation and courage
Not only Ezer Weizman would eventually become the commander of the IAF, he also became later-on, the president of Israel.
He was a relative of Haim Weizman, the first president of Israel and a talented scientist (whose inventions helped-out Britain in its war efforts).
Fun fact Haim Weizmann invented acetone.
Great content. My grandmother's cousin wrote a book about this. Her husband was part of a group of aircraft mechanics that refurbished and flew the surplus cargo aircraft used to smuggle these planes and other armaments out of Europe for the Israeli government. The planes would come off the assembly line, be test flown once, then the wings were removed and the fuselage would be loaded into the cargo plane with just enough room for the wings to slide in beside it. Then a very risky flight to the Middle East avoiding the wrong airspace.
I'm glad to see pictures of these 109s with their weird engines. I always wondered. The whole messer means 'knife" thing. Someone is trying to clean up history. I believe they were called "Messerschmitts", but the "schm" was pronounced "sh". Most of the pilots spoke English.
The Messerschmitt was named after the designer Wilhelm Messerschmitt. He designed passenger planes later making the iconic fighters we all know and love.
One of the noteworthy pilots who flew the S.199 in the original Israeli Airforce was Chris Magee, a leading ace during WW2 in the famous Black Sheep Squadron, VMF 214.
Doing a rewatch of this well told episode… great photos as well Thanks 😊
Thank you for the video. It is very nice and historically accurate.
This channel is beyond merely excellent. It is superb. Thank you so much, Rex!
Le 109 était incontestablement un avion exceptionnel en son temps !
Very interesting. Could you make a video about the Spanish Buchón?
You learn something new any other day ... I - for one - didn't know that the israeli Army used license-built BF109s. I knew that Spain had some. And Switzerland. But ... well ... they did their jobs. Sort of. Thanks for sharing !
Think Spanish 109,s used home made hisso,s more like Merlin not inverted and were used in battle of Britain movie , exhaust not inverted.
Die Schweizer Flugwaffe hat auch deutsche Flugzeuge abgeschossen mit Bf 109, die auf dem Weg nach Frankreich über Schweizer Gebiet geflogen sind. Hermann Goehring war sehr sauer, es wurde dann untersagt, um die Nazis nicht zu provozieren.
The Swiss Air Force also shot down German planes with Bf 109 flying over Swiss territory en route to France. Hermann Goehring was very angry, it was then forbidden in order not to provoke the Nazis.
@@jochensch8821
Das hatten Sie auch mit einer Fw 190 Dora versucht, der Pilot hatte amerikanische Begleitjägern bekämpft und war über die Schweiz geraten. Von da an hatte die Schweiz 2 Bf109 weniger.
Die Schweiz hatte auch viele amerikanische Flugzeuge zur Landung gezwungen.
@@carlnapp4412 Nun wenn neutral dann richtig. Es gibt da einen Witz den ich einmal gelesen habe.
Amerikaner überfliegen die Schweiz,
die Luftüberwachung funkt an. Sie überfliegen die neutrale Schweiz.
Amerikaner: das wissen wir.
Verlassen sie den Luftraum, sonst müssen wir schiessen.
Amerikaner: das wissen wir.
Es wird geschossen.
Amerikaner: Sie schiessen zu niedrig
Schweizer: das wissen wir.
Ich habe im TV auch einen Bericht gesehen, über US-Bomberbesatzungen die technischen Probleme hatten und in der Schweiz landeten. Sie durften nicht mehr starten und man musste sie auch internieren.
@@jochensch8821
Selbstbewußtsein war noch nie Mangelware unter den Eidgenossen.
Excellent. You should quickly build a good number of followers. I've just subscribed.
Superb video well done :)
The Bf109 already had an intrinsic problem with it’s narrow landing carriage. This feature probably crashed more Bf109’s than the enemy did.
So so. When 109 was used on grass airfields idealy with wet grass it was better than operated them on asphalt airfield. Some German group used them around Q4/1944 in Austria on asphalt and there had higher losses from a asphalt than from a enemy.
They were only a little bit narrow at landing gear than a Spitfire was...
Fw190 fan myself
@@chadrowe8452 ….Give the 109 it’s due. When introduced it was the best in the world. It was upgraded thought out it’s production. The FW190 was a better aircraft. However in the middle of a war 109 production wasn’t going to stop. So the 109 has laurels for being the most produced fighter aircraft in history
@@Idahoguy10157 very true sir
I’ve heard there was a thick streak of anti-semitism in the Roosevelt administration which one might suppose survived into the Truman years. My guess this would have had a major influence on post war foreign policy, not some strict adherence to a neutrality policy viv-a-vis the newly formed state of Israel.
mainly from dulles in the state department who hated Israel and Jews in general.
I took a course from an ex-USAF Colonel who had some direct knowledge of the early Israeli Air Force indicated that the end of these planes with the Israelis was far more ignoble than is usually mentioned.
10:43 The accidents increasing was most probably not due to the runway being unpaved. Actually, for airplanes like this an unpaved runway is more helpful and thus, safer because 1. one can more easily land straight into the wind on a strip of grass or gravel wide enough (where paved runways „produce“ crosswind more often). 2. Unpaved landing fields have usually less friction on the wheels making it more forgiving than concrete. It could produce more wear on the tyres rubber due to the skidding. But since the friction is less, the effect sort of equalizes.
exactly correct on all points. Every experienced pilot who lands on both unimproved and paved landing areas knows that the airframe takes much less stress on the (reasonably) unimproved field, landing as close as possible to wind heading. Land uphill, take off downhill if given the choice
Thanks!
Thank you very much ! That was really well explained
Czech did not only sell them aircraft, they too actually sold them tons of rifles to supplement whatever the Israelis could get their hands on from the British that backed off of the Levant region. However, slight problem... It faces issues same as the planes but something more catastrophic.
The Czechs made the Vz.24 rifle which was basically the same as the Kar98K the Wehrmacht was using and since it was basically the same toolings, the Germans soon ensured that the entire Skoda factory and the other arms plant in Czechoslovakia was making the Kar98K. However, the Czechs being Czechs, hated the German occupiers and they sabotaged tons of guns by basically misaligning the unadjustable front sight post of the rifle.
When Israel initially got the rifles, the Czechs left out that fact and when the Hagannah initially fired it, many of the soldiers were miffed on why the gun wasn't shooting at where they were aiming till they realized that the gun's zeroing was totally botched from the get-go by the Czechs themselves but the Israeli still compensated for it as they were just happy to have guns to survive the conflict and stay afloat.
Amazing channel!
Great video. It should be mentioned that Ezer Weizman was later in his life the seventh President of Israel, first elected in 1993 and re-elected in 1998.
The US convicted or tried to those who were smuggling planes to Israel. In England they pretended to film a movie and when the plane took off, no one noticed it was flying in the wrong direction, toward Israel. It was very difficult for Israel to get heavy weapons and aircraft.
No joke. The supposed movie script had the intrepid airman parting from his girlfriend, then taking off and flying away on his mission. The plane took off and was supposed to land at another field so they could continue filming scenes, but it wasn’t noticed that the plane was not headed to the field, but another direction. By the time the deception was discovered, the plane and “film crew” were long gone. The English authorities were very angry.
The Israeli pilots heard a rumor that the Arabs had hired some ex German Luftwaffe pilots and thought of the irony of Israeli Messerschmitts against Germans flying Spitfires.
I flew this plane in war thunder and absolutely hated it. Glad to see there is a backstory to it all though. It makes it kinda cool to know the history of it.
To sum up: The aircraft was basically a piece of junk and a deathtrap with it's contribution being that it was able to bluff the enemy into maybe believing that the Israeli's had a real fighter aircraft.
Sure the 109's accepted the more sort of engine types and countries were they where crafted and still flews...
By the time the former 109s got to Israel they were a bit of a Frankenstein but inside there was the remains of the world's most accomplished fighter plane. From Spain over Europe, Africa and Russia finally to the middle east it racked up more kills than any other fighter between 15 and 20 thousand. No other fighter comes close. It was like a beat up, half blind old boxer given one last shot at a title and I think it came out well on top. Once an icon of oppression it ended it's days as a freedom fighter hero to a new nation, not a bad ending.
Junk? It did the job didn’t it.
@@r.g.o3879 well said.
@@r.g.o3879 Brilliant. Numbers don't lie.
What an interesting story Rex. While I don't know if the anecdotes, I read about the 109's ground handling problems were true for poorly trained German pilots in WW2, they certainly must have been by the time there was heavier engine with more torque was bolted onto the front.
The centrally hinged front gear makes for a narrow gear profile and unstable stance on the ground.
The centrally hinged front gear makes for a narrow gear profile and unstable stance on the ground.
Very well composed video :)
The documentary called above and beyond is amazing. The guys that flew these planes give first hand stories
Indeed it is! And apparently the ex-allied pilots (the Americans at least) had another nickname for the S.199... the Messershit. :)
@@janiilola5810 I saw that.. pretty funny. They didn’t like it because it had a Heinkel bomber engine in it
I Czech I have few comments.
For this price. We didn't help Israel, we used them.
For DB605 was better unpaved airfields, well Jumo 211 wanted opposite(probably).
Engine was bit bigger and could not use even small silent blocks. 605 had small from few steel pads, 601 had rubber sinetblocks so does Jumo 211 in another applications when Germany had a rubber.
Bonnet was with engine contact on more places than around weapons and air intakes, what caused more vibrations.
Jumo 211 can't use "motorkanone" and shot through a propeler.
Although J211 had lower power output, generated more heat.
Jumo 211 had bigger displacement and needer bit more oil despite its crankshaft up.
Pilot who survived can say Ive got skill and luck.
In Prague, I saw in Jehovov a plaque thanking Israel for its support. Hardly anyone wanted to sell weapons to Israel. A lot of things had to be smuggled, since the state as a customer did not exist yet. The Arab states, however, bought a lot of material which was surplus after the war.
For the price: It was shameful, but it was a business. Israel needed the planes and Czechoslovakia had them. The state of Israel was in its infancy at that time and the risk that it will fail was significant and so was the political risk of selling military equipment to such country. The Americans and Soviets were neutral at its best, Arabs where strong enemies, Brits and French both had their own interests in middle East and were anti-Israel. Czechoslovakia was one of the few countries willing to help and we were also under pressure from north East and West. Soviets banned the latest shipments of arms after they figured out that despite all the kibuces Isreal is not going to go the communist way.
Money mean very little in a war where you fighting for your own existence. Badly equipped and overpriced air force is way better than no air force at all.
Great vid, thanks for the fascinating history lesson.
I read a few accounts of this contraption and the common feature was the word "deathtrap".
This is one of those stories that should be a movie
The irony of Israel using a German design !
I'm sure it helped boost morale slightly to know that they not only won the war, but also took the enemies' best fighter.
wasn't that the FW 190 ?
It wasn't the enemy's best fighter.
@@AviViljoen Germany used the Bf-109 since the start of the war until it ended, you can say it was their best fighter
@@yoamal1187 You can say it, but you'd be wrong. Just because it was in service for six years doesn't make it the best. Which would you say was the best US fighter of the war? Was it the Brewster Buffalo, or the Bell Airacobra? (both were used from the start of the war until it ended, which - by your logic - make them jointly the best US fighters).
Excellent piece! Interesting subject and presented in a relaxed and clear way. Very good 👍!
The Bf109 are unstabil for take of and landing too, but thank new propeller with higher air resistance and gyro-moment, the unstability dramaticly escaled. Standart take off- was finished with 90 gradus curve.
The irony of the vaunted Messerschmitt being the savior of Israel is something that only a Hollywood movie writer could have come up with but if you believe in a higher being or karma or some such it does feel like the former Nazi fighter was chosen to perform this special task and there can be no doubt it achieved much more than it's mere combat record shows. The former 109 is now forever enshrined in the history of Israel. It is a testament to its design and planning and perhaps fitting that the greatest fighter plane of all time performed it's most important mission at the end of its career helping to usher in a new nation and perhaps redeem it's darker beginnings
Agree! IF the Jumo engine - they should've used 190 D's ;-)
The Israeli's had inferior products, but by sheer force of will, they pulled off miracle after miracle. Good for them...they were and are amazing.
The Israeli air force is successful today because it has some of the bravest pilots in the world and some of the most advanced jets in the world. But it started with only brave pilots, really REALLY brave pilots who had to fly into combat in death traps.
Those pictures of surplus airplanes going to the scrap yard at the end of WW2 breaks my heart. The waste of machines when they are no longer needed as soon as they become obsolete makes me question our sanity.
You know Paul Reuben of television/ movie " PeeWee Herman" fame? His dad was one of the Israeli pilots of these aircraft!
Yes, Milton Rubenfeld, flew for the RAF as well as being one of the first Israeli fighter pilots.
I once saw a description for how badly the plan was scraped together:
imagine a car, built from the chassis of a sedan, with the engine of a truck and the wheels of a tractor...
Let me introduce you to the Standard Vanguard Vignale..
Wow great video. You remind me of a great TH-camr I know called the flying T. rex ;). Any chance of a history of the Israeli airforce vid?
Thanks! I am working on a video series called "Tales of the (insert air force name here)" which will somewhat cover the chronological histories of various air forces. Its a lot of work and research so you may not see these for a little while let :)
@@RexsHangar awesome
Great Video!
Virgin Israelis: we had to stop using half of the guns on the aircraft you sold us because they kept shooting off the engine propellers
Chad Czechs: skill issue
Seen the drawings of the cannon going through the original 109 engine and out of the middle of the cone of the prop? Crazy! 😁
There are a couple of S199s in the excellent Czech air museum on the outskirts of Prague. I recommend a visit!
Kbely air museum
They should get a medal just for climbing in the cockpit!
Nah... most nations have to actually do something to qualify for a medal. 😉
@@AviViljoen In the US some branches of the military give a medal for completion of boot camp.
@@edwinsalau150 Yes, that was the kind of thing I was referring to 🤣
@@AviViljoen well Israel did more than enough to get hundreds of medals. Israelis are brave people and fight like hell when their home is threatened.
@@IdoDekel-do7hh I know, and I absolutely agree with you. I have the highest respect for the Israelis. I was referring to some other nations who hand out medals for merely attending courses. I am ex South African Army, and in my day, if you saw one medal on a soldier, you knew it was well-earned. I will not speak badly of the Israeli Defence Force.
I don't know if it's pilot skill or lack there of but it is interesting to note that 109s that had the wrong engine and prop were STILL able to mix it up with spitfires and come out on top several times.
You have to consider the pilots. On the Israeli side there were American and British veterans of WW2 with combat experience, against inexperienced and poorly trained Arab pilots.
Incorrect title: the Avia S.199 is not a German WW2 fighter. It is a Czech post-war development of a German WW2 fighter. Makes one wonder how many similar inaccuracies one will find in the video itself.
I've got some hairs if you need to split any more.....
Given that all they did was stick a different engine in it, I wouldn't consider that as so much development that the title is incorrect....
@@notsureyou “Given that all they did was stick a different engine in it”
>>Not true. The Junkers Jumo 211F (and propeller) did not allow for the use of the “Motorkanone” (central cannon mount), so that was deleted. So that was the main armament, gone. Also, to make up for the loss of the cannon, they installed cowl-mounted MG-131 machine guns under the wings. So, contrary to your argument that “all they did was stick a different engine in it”, they also had to a) use a different propeller, b) delete the central cannon mount, and c) install cowl-mounted machine guns.
“I wouldn't consider that as so much development”
>> It was not a development. It made the planes much worse. (More on this, later).
“so much development that the title is incorrect....”
>>The title is incorrect. The Avia S.199 is not a German WW2 fighter. It is a Czech post-war development of a German WW2 fighter. Not the same.
“I've got some hairs if you need to split any more”
>>One the one hand I want to be as dismissive as you, and simply ask “where am I splitting hairs?” But the astonishing ignorance inherent in your comment prevents me from treating you in the same way as you are treating me.
They replaced a fighter engine (Daimler-Benz DB 605) with a bomber engine (Junkers Jumo 211) and propeller. Judging by your flippant comment, you seem to think that this is insignificant.
The resulting aircraft was (by Israeli accounts) unreliable, difficult to maintain, unresponsive (especially at take-off and landing altitudes), over-torqued (due to the heavy, wooden bomber-propeller), suffered from too much drag due to the cowl-mounted machine guns, heavy, and with insufficient firepower.
The Bf-109 was not an easy aircraft to control, and was known to be a handful, even to experienced pilots. This was - in a large part -due to its heavy wing-loading. The addition of the cowl-mounted machine guns (due to them “sticking in another engine”) compounded this. A senior Luftwaffe pilot described the handling characteristics of the later Bf-109 as “malevolent”. So any degradation in handling would be disastrous. The extra torque/weight/drag/ was obviously enough to make the S-199 a real 'Mule'.
The Bf-109 was a very difficult plane to land, due to its high wing-loading, small rudder and narrow undercarriage. “All they did was stick a different engine in it”. This increased the landing speed to 200km/h, making the plane even more difficult to land. It was difficult enough with the Daimler engine, so the torque-heavy Jumo must have made it well-nigh impossible. This, according to you, is “splitting hairs”.
The S.199 was structurally heavier than the Bf-109, because they used inferior construction materials. This is not good for an underpowered fighter aircraft.
The Jumo engine, and especially the wooden propeller, was aerodynamically inferior to the Bf-109. Not good for an underpowered fighter aircraft.
Due to the fact that the Jumo engine had so much more torque, they had to add a bulge to the fin, to try and counter the torque problem.
The synchronisation of the underwing machine gun sometimes failed, causing the machine guns to fire into the oversized wooden propeller. But, according to you, “all they did was stick a different engine in it”.
All they did was not to just stick a different engine in it. They fundamentally changed the aircraft and its characteristics.
The Avia S.199 is not a German fighter and it did not save Israel. You defend a clearly factually incorrect title and you denigrate a factually correct comment. Is this also the case in other areas of your life?
What you tried to achieve with your vacuous comment is well and truly beyond my comprehension. I encourage you to make your riposte more substantive, logical, and robust.
@@AviViljoen
They didn't install cowling mounted machine guns to make up for the loss of the main armament.
The 13mm cowling mounted machine guns were standard in the Bf109 from the G6 onwards (Early 1943).
The gondola (under wing) mounted canons were a standard optional fitment on all wartime Bf109's from the F series onwards, and was known as the Rüstsatz VI kit.
The synchronizer issue that you mention as is also mentioned in the video had to do with the cowling mounted machine guns,
not the underwing gondola canons (as these did not fire through the propeller)
The Bf109 was not known to be a handful in the air, yes take off and landing was interesting for new pilots (and many new pilots had accidents because of the fear they had of the aircrafts take off and landing qualities).
Yes it had a higher wing loading than a Spitfire, but it also had a lower wing loading than a P51
I don't doubt that the changes that were made, caused the aircraft to become an absolute pig.
But given what I would call minimal changes compared to the original design,
In that it was a German ww2 fighter design, that was later adapted to take a different German engine (with other minor changes, like using a He111 propeller, and deleting the centrally mounted canon)
So an inferior derivative yes, but the changes are not enough to claim that the title is incorrect.
As essentially the the airframe is near identical, just a different engine and propeller.
In one of the first attacks they stopped the advance of the Egyptian army, when they were about 40 km's south of Tel Aviv.
This was due to the effect that the attack had on the Egyptian army morale,
rather than the aircraft showing any form excellent ground attack qualities.
So the claim that the Aircraft type saved Israel is correct given this,
and especially considering that upon the types arrival, that the balance of airpower shifted in favour of Israel.
@@notsureyou Thank you for a rational, considered response.
“They didn't install cowling mounted machine guns to make up for the loss of the main armament.”
>> I know. I mentioned it to counter your argument that “all they did was stick a different engine in it”.
“The 13mm cowling mounted machine guns were standard in the Bf109 from the G6 onwards (Early 1943). The gondola (under wing) mounted canons were a standard optional fitment on all wartime Bf109's from the F series onwards, and was known as the Rüstsatz VI kit.”
>>So was it standard or was it optional? It was optional, and it was common, but it wasn’t standard.
“The synchronizer issue that you mention as is also mentioned in the video had to do with the cowling mounted machine guns, not the underwing gondola canons (as these did not fire through the propeller)”
>>Not for the Bf-109, but it became a problem for the S.199 after they fitted the larger He-III propellers.
“The Bf109 was not known to be a handful in the air, yes take off and landing was interesting for new pilots”
>>I agree with you on this. I didn’t make my point clear enough. What I should have said was that take-off and landing became more difficult with the S.199’s reduced power, reduced responsiveness, increased torque, increased drag, and increased weight. It follows logically that these qualities also caused the S.199 to be inferior to the Bf-109 in the air (supporting my argument that the difference between the Bf-109 and the S.199 didn’t come down to a matter of “all they did was stick a different engine in it”.
“(and many new pilots had accidents because of the fear they had of the aircrafts take off and landing qualities).”
>>Of course I don’t have figures, but I would suspect that pilots had accidents more because the plane was difficult to take off and land rather than just because of fear.
“Yes it had a higher wing loading than a Spitfire, but it also had a lower wing loading than a P51”
>>That’s not the point. The point is that while the Bf-109 already had a high wing loading, the changes they made to the S.199 increased that wing loading, reducing its ease of handling.
“I don't doubt that the changes that were made, caused the aircraft to become an absolute pig. But given what I would call minimal changes compared to the original design,”
>>Changes which adversely affect almost all of the characteristics of the plane to such an extent that it becomes non-viable in combat are hardly minimal.
“In that it was a German ww2 fighter design, that was later adapted to take a different German engine”
>>It wasn’t merely a different engine. The original engine was designed and built for fighter aircraft. The Jumo was built specifically for bombers. There is a difference, and judging from your other comments on this forum I suspect that you know why this is relevant. Also, just because it’s German doesn’t make it equal.
“(with other minor changes, like using a He111 propeller, and deleting the centrally mounted canon)”
>>The changes might have been minor, but their impact was drastic by all accounts.
“So an inferior derivative yes, but the changes are not enough to claim that the title is incorrect.”
>>The title is incorrect. If you were to call a Kfir a Mirage 5 because one is based on the other, you would be wrong there as well. Is a VW Golf and a Skoda and a SEAT the same thing with interchangeable names? No. One is built in Germany, the other, inferior derivative or not, is built in the Czech Republic. Not the same. (Alternately: get yourself a German car - say, a BMW 5-series. Now remove the engine, and stick in a completely different German engine - say a VW TDi. Now tell me your car is the same). You might as well argue that the Spitfire Mk XIII is the same as the Spitfire XII - they just stuck a different engine in it.
“As essentially the the airframe is near identical”
>>But it is not, and I suspect you know this. Different materials, different reinforcements, and again, I suspect you know this.
“just a different engine and propeller.”
>>Even if this was true - and it is not - it is a fundamentally different aircraft, with fundamentally different characteristics.
“In one of the first attacks they stopped the advance of the Egyptian army, when they were about 40 km's south of Tel Aviv. This was due to the effect that the attack had on the Egyptian army morale, rather than the aircraft showing any form excellent ground attack qualities. So the claim that the Aircraft type saved Israel is correct given this, and especially considering that upon the types arrival, that the balance of airpower shifted in favour of Israel.”
>>Although the S.199 undoubtedly played a significant role, and was a much-needed tool, I have no doubt that it was the Israelis who saved Israel.
Thank you again for a cognitive, mature reply to my post.
@@AviViljoen The underwing gondolas were fitted as needed (attacking bombers etc), and at other times it was up to the pilot pilots preference (just doing a fighter sweep for example).
In this context the word standard means that it wasn't a kit that was made up by one unit, so in todays language it would be an optional OEM kit (or equipment like a tow bar).
In your first paragraph you "c" point mentioned the installation of cowl mounted machine guns, which is why brought it up.
Correct the synchronizer issue was ironed out in the BF109 (it was an issue when they first transitioned from the 7.96mm guns to the 13mm guns according to Galland in his book),
But reappeared when they changed the propeller when making the Mule.
I 100% agree that the minor changes had a big affect (and not in any good way) on the handling of the aircraft.
But they were again minor changes,
And as an aside a pilot that has flown both a "normal" BF109 and one of the "Spanish 109's" has commented that even those aircraft had had at least one difference in flying characteristics that was not good.
So perhaps a better title for the video should be:
"The Czechoslovakian derivative of a German ww2 fighter that was used to save Israel"
Yes the sheer will of the Israelis is what gave them the strength to fight as hard as they did, but sheer will without a weapons won't win.
phenomenal video. great job
Hi Rex, one of the oldest surviving WW2 Luftwaffe pilpts Hans Ekard-Bobb had commented that due to the Bf.109s narrow-track undercarridge a lot of inexperienced pilots were killed on takeoffs and landings, my latest drawing is that of an Avia S.199
Amazing story....
Ahh, yes. Take a plane known for poor ground handling and torque issues... stick a bomber engine in it. What could possiblie go wrong?
Great video! Really love this new channel. The era just after WW2 is something I know so little about, so this was really interesting.
Thanks! I plan to cover everything from the dawn of flight up to Desert Storm. So it should be fun!
Another great video!
Would love to see more information on the early IAF.
cool video! JJ
Having obtained Hugo Hooftman’s book on rare airplane photos in the 60’s, I was well aware of the Israeli bf-109.
There were all kinds of German munitions exported from Post war, recreated Czechoslovakia. Anything and Everything that had the benefit of not having to cut corners during the production and not being carpet and firebombed by the Western Allies. The piston engine German aircraft were still of a very high technological level that would only be improved with American High test gasoline and and the adoption of superchargers. Small arms like K98k Mausers were and still are in the USA today in very good condition with winter trigger guards from the Bruenn rifle plant (or Brno in Czech.) Surprisingly, the German assault rifles, the MP44s that were manufactured in very high numbers, around 1 million of them, don't seem to have been sold to Israel in any big numbers. Perhaps they weren't available in the post war Czech areas.
Great video 😎👍
The only reason I'd heard of this aircraft before. 20 years ago I bought a book titles "World's Worst Aircraft". I still have that book.
Yes the Heinkel was better, but Heinkel was not in the NSDAP. Messerschmitt was in Hitlers Party.
Was just wondering . All the problems with the s199s engine. How did the FW190D get on so well with it? It seems to have the same short fat bladed propeller and the same engine as used in the HE111H
FW airframe was redesigned to accommodate the new engine, here you have a frankensine monster made from parts.
because it wasn't the same engine.
The D9 used a Jumo 213 not a Jumo 211
@@randomnickify The FW also didn't use a Jumo 211.
Very interesting!
I had never even heard of this aircraft before ! -And man, oh man...those propellers...("spades" would be a better name, really) 🤔
He-111 parts ;)
With those big props, it would have been a deadly fighter at high altitudes. But it seems like most of the battles were fought at low altitudes and ground attack where it was not well suited for at all.
Error: The S-199's were brought in by primarily by 11-12 surplus purchased C-46's Commandos (the first one crashed with an S-199 aboard) that had been purchased the US. The Israelis had also purchased 2 C-54's which probably also carried some as well as maybe the C-69 that Israel I think purchased.
I wonder how long the Checks got the Me-262 engines to last when they where able to use proper materials in the construction of the engines? The Germans had to replace engines after 10 hours of usage because of the lack of proper materials.
I have some books that cover the 262 extensively, though I have not read them all yet. Perhaps I will find an answer to this!
Czechnology
Jumo 004As had a service life of about 200 hours before major overalls. To put this into perspective the first Meteors' engines had about a 150 hour life span.
@@southernbear736 Production and maintenance of the 004 was done at the Junkers works at Magdeburg, under the supervision of Otto Hartkopf. Completed engines earned a reputation for unreliability; the time between major overhauls (not technically a time between overhaul) was thirty to fifty hours, and may have been as low as ten,
@@lambastepirate Those are not the engines I'm referring too. The Jumo 004A is the pre production engine, used for in the prototype Me 262s built without material restrictions, of which had a engine rebuilt period of about 200 hours.
The *production* Jumo 004B however is a very different story. Built without the nickel and other rare metals required for the high temperatures, Junkers came up with an Aluminium ablative coating to coat the fan blades and combustion chamber, which would wear down over time just like the heat shield on a space craft.
The Bs had an average time between engine rebuilds of about 25-26 hours for the average pilot. As you have stated a good pilot could make them last for up to 50-60 hours with proper throttle control.
I appreciate the hell out of the irony of a BF109 clone serving the Israelis
The Israelis used surplus K98s, too. They generally just scratched or branded out the swatsikas.
So the Israelis had a second rate plane with very "strange" handling as well as pilots not propperly trained on this plane, yet they beat the pants of the spitfires flown by the invading forces. What a great story.
yes a great story that led to 75 years of misery for everybody at the hands of Isreal.
@@IronWarhorsesFun The only ones who suffered were those who attacked Israel. So why would you expect anyone to be nice to attackers who have another holocaust in mind?
@@IronWarhorsesFun PS: I am sure the Israelis disagree about the misery for everyone. They have prospered.
@@IronWarhorsesFun lol cry harder, the only people in misery are those who tried to steal Jewish ancestral land.
Israeli pilots (South Africa, Great Britain, USA) also shot down 4 NEW RAF spitfires who were "unofficially" helping the egyptians.
Wow, it must be terrifying to know that you shot off your own propellers in a plane that cant even take off without spinining like its pinned on one side
Also, nice pfp you chose for your 2nd channel ;)
Thanks! Yeah it was a pretty horrible aircraft overall, I bet the pilots were very happy to get out of them as soon as possible.
In the beginning, the Israeli's had to make due with a lot of surplus military gear. Look up the story of the surplus B-17's they bought in the US ... and bombed Cairo with on the trip to Israel. A weapon they had better luck with were bolt-action K-98 Mauser rifles. Although a lot of them were battlefield pick-ups, or those made by the Czech's, Fabrique Nationale in Belgium made entirely brand new ones for Israeli due to the poor treatment accorded the Jews by Great Britain. All of these rifles were chambered in 7.62x51 and remained in service until the early 1970's. I own one the those built by FN. It is in excellent shape and a great shooter.
Brave Men !!!
As a lover of the beautiful Bf-109, I could not resist a vid on the Mezak (mule [sp?]) 💜💜💜.
They also use german ww2 era small arms too
Do you have a video on the Lancaster?
If it hadn’t been for politics the we could’ve sold them P 51 Mustang‘s.
If it hadn't been for politics Israel would have been whole even back in 1948. Israel had the manpower to fight the Arabs and it sure as hell had the money to buy all the weapons it needed but it didn't have the equipment because barely anyone was willing to sell weapons to Israel.
Pee Wee Herman's Dad was one of these pilots in the 1st fighter squadron. His name was Milton Rubenfeld.
Hello from Czech Republic,...yes, we really made this crap!(((-:
How much can i thank you for saving my country.