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Hookless Rims Explained | Which Bike Tyres Can You Use & Why?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ส.ค. 2024
- Hookless rims are relatively new pieces of cycling tech that are changing the way in which bike wheels are manufactured, allowing for lighter and stronger construction compared to the conventional hooked rim. But there are still a few misconceptions about their safety and which tyres you can use with them, so Si explains all with some help from our partners at Zipp and Pirelli.
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Do you use hookless rims on your bike currently? Do you have any further questions about them?
I use tubeless but I don't even know if the rims are hookless lol
I will be in April ordered a 2021 Giant Tcr advanced Pro 0 which has em. Thanks for the info Si and GCN
I have a pair of 9th wave hookless rims on my bike
Yes, I do. No, I don't. 😉
No, when I got my current bike they were only on the uber super bikes at the time. I just want to know what the market share is at the moment. I don't like buying things that have parts/pieces that are trending out of fashion, as in my experience, that makes things harder to fix a few years later.
so good to see Si hosting this GCN tech
It's been a while since he's been in the workshop...
@@gcntech since previous Zipp ad?
Me too. Getting sick of Ollie lately
@@lookpro.rideslow i thought im the only one. it always feels to me that ollie is very fake and has limited knowledge
@@pskonejott2568 his “charm” has worn out on me very quickly. I roll my eyes when I see a thumbnail with his face now.
i purchased a very expensive set of carbon hookless rims at my local bike shop. They sold me some nice, expensive tires to put on them. After a full weekend of wrestling with it, the tires would not seat or seal. Turns out the tires weren't compatible with the rims. So we checked with the wheel manufacturer.. they basically said, 'we only tested it with ONE specific tire MODEL, and only in one specific size, and only at a very specific pressure at that. So, we tried that tire (not a tire or brand I was fond of mind you), and still had a terrible time getting it over the edge of the rim, even using metal tire levers (after snapping several plastic/nylon levers). These wheels were specifically intended to use on a gravel bike. I live in an area where it is often cold and wet and dark, and almost all of the best gravel riding is in areas with little or no mobile phone coverage. Then we asked if they supported running tubes in these tires.. the answer was a firm NO. Which means no emergency tube/boot install.
I sent an email to the manufacturer asking them how I could get possibly service this tire in the field - i.e. on the side of a gravel road or trail, potentially in cold/wet/freezing weather, and outside of mobile phone service area. They had no answer. My comment was a very pointed request for a refund, which they granted. The shop doesn't sell that particular brand of wheel any more - at least they didn't last time I was there.
Keep these simple thoughts in mind when considering spending money on hookless rims. What tires are you going to run, and at what size and pressure? Are those tires compatible? (ask the wheel company and the tire company - you'll probably get VERY different answers from both). Are you willing to limit your tire choices to those that are compatible? What happens if you cut a sidewall, or have some problem that requires you boot the tire and put a tube in? Bottom line, what benefit are you getting from hookless rims that make it worth dealing with all of this hassle?
I'm back to hooked rims and safe tires that can support a wide variety of sizes and tread options, and have the options of running tubes. I'll be there for a while.
For those that opt to go with hookless rims, best of luck to you.
Wow!!! THink I'll wait a year or so till they are more common & have been tested by more people.
Great post. *I'd REALLY like to see Si Richardson's response to this* (probably far more common problem than he implied in this _sponsored_ emphatically optimistic infomercial. He did say he'd be reading such posts with interest....
@@georgehugh3455 He posted this video because Zipp and or Pirelli paid him to (and I'm ok with this). I only put this comment here so people pondering hookless rims are aware of the issues I had. Si even mentioned some of these concerns in his video, although he didn't specifically say they are no longer issues, only that standards have finally been put in place, so that, hopefully, going forward, wheel and tire manufacturers can get the tolerances sorted out. As it stands now, at least with the particular wheelset I purchased, the 'standards' were definitely not sorted out. I'm sure the wheelset works fine in a general sense. I was just not willing to take the risk of cutting a tire out on a remote trail somewhere and have no way to get home. The whole 'DON'T USE TUBES - THEY MAY BLOW THE TIRE OFF' thing is a *big* problem for anyone who doesn't have a team van following them around for wheel swaps. Just do your homework/research. Make sure the wheelset you are considering will run the tires you want to run at the pressures you want to run, and that you are comfortable with your ability to get home if something goes wrong out on the road/trail.
@@jimhansen5395 There are people always trying to make a better wheel since the Stone Age. Technology and patents today can make a good designer much money but there are also trade offs as in your case.
I love technology myself but most time tried and true will always get you there, and back.
@@georgehugh3455 On Twitter, Si said that the situation that Jim described absolutely cannot happen, because tires and rims follow a standard, and so one tire cannot be more difficult than another. But we know it does happen, in spite of standards.
SI is just BRILLIANT - His explanations seamless.
Kudos !!
Really appreciate him !
*hookless ;-)
We’ve been talking to Zipp and Pirelli to get completely independent and unbiased answers 😉
I think that's better than talking to you. 😁
@@johnpaullaxa5486 oooh better call a burn ward
Exactly which part of that video could be subject to biased answers from Zipp and Pirelli? Please enlightened me.
@@Dee-Ell Giant specifically state that Pirelli tyres are not compatible with their hookless rims. I have no idea if this is correct or not, but that would make me question the compatibility claims in the video.
yeah that made me lol. Let alone they paid for this video
On a ride today with my friends and one had a flat. He was riding his new Orbea (beautiful bike) . Imagine our consternation when we tried to take the tire off the rim only to find it was stuck, almost like it was manufactured in one piece. The tire was fully deflated but we could not get the tire bead to come free of the rim edge. We, 4 men, worked on this for 30 minutes before resorting to youtube and finally a call out to bike mechanic friend who told us it was a new "hookless rim" and we needed to basically "man up" and force the tire to break seal with the rim edge. Another 30 minutes with the strongest among us finally using a two hand twisting motion on the tire perpendicular to the diameter of the rim and the bead finally moved to the center of the wheel, where we could get a tire lever under it and fairly easily hook it over the wheel. On closer examination a "hookless" rim has two shoulders around the outside edge of the wheel where the bead of the tire when mounted is stretched so tight by the extra height that it makes a almost unbreakable seal. This is an incredibly hard thing to deal with on the road, and that is putting it mildly! So why would anyone create such a difficult to deal with wheel system??
One final detail, while a new bike and wide rims, think they must have measured 25mm width internal, maybe?, due to shortages the bike shop put on 25mm wide tires, was this the reason we had such problems, would a 28 or 30 have been a different experience?
My buddy is ready to shop for new rims, any feedback would be appreciated!
This was very helpful info. Thanks for posting it. I've seen the same comment from several others here. It's enough to keep me from buying hookless wheels. Repairing flats mid-ride is enough of a headache as it is; no need to make it harder.
I've done mine at home a couple times now (thanks to tubeless I didn't need to swap tubes mid ride).
While it is harder to get them to unseat, I definitely didn't have that much issue with them. Am running the 2022 Propel with Giant SLR1 wheels.
Definitely need a lever to get the bead over the rim, but found it comparable to non-tubepess once I'd done that.
@@morosis82 I had the opposite experience this week taking the default tyres off a 2022 TCR with the SLR1 wheels. The tyres were basically stuck to the wheel, only removed on seeing advice on TH-cam about carefully standing on the tyre to break the bead.
Brilliant as you say to see the industry working so hard to find common standards that all can agree and use for production. Now, about those bottom brackets....
🙈 let's not get into that!
@@gcntech *Boss Music Starts Playing*
They should stick to just BB386/392, PF30 and BSA68/73/83/100
Shannon Trainer PF30 should only be used for kids' bikes, where a narrow Q factor is needed. BSA is outdated. It required a very thin BB housing to make 29-30mm spindles work. The only 2 standards that should be in use for adult road bikes are T47i and BB386EVO. For MTB, I would argue that there is no place for pressfit.
@@404nobrakes I'd argue the problem is to try to use a 30 mm spindle at all! Minimal benefit in that.
Definitely one of the most informative videos from GCN Tech. Answered questions I didn't know I had. Thanks!
5,000 miles on my new Zipp 303S hookless wheel set. Love tubeless! Love the ride quality! Loved the price!
But, but, but...they're so DANGEROUS!!! Why you've probably died three or four times by now!
Completely agree, 1000 miles on mine on gravel, fantastic wheels and ride for the money
I just got a set yesterday and put a quick 50k on them. The ride is so good and smooth over Malaysia's rough roads.
What tires type brands/manufacture do you put on that zipp 303s?, I'm about to buy this wheels but still confuse about the tire
@@onggoangga This is the most complete list of tires... www.enve.com/en/lp/tire-compatibility/
Still on hooked carbonclinchers with latex-innertubes and rimbrakes.
Elvis der Blasehase why? heard of tubolitos or aerothan?
After a season on carbon clinchers with latex sealant, I'm done with inner tubes.
panzerveps just not enough to win but so much to loose on that tl path for me
@@ianiscaratti4924 I've never experienced the tires being loose. Rather the opposite. Took me 20 minutes to force each tire onto the rim.
@@ianiscaratti4924 polyurethan is almost the worst for rollingresistance. Tubeless is the best, latex comes close, next are thin butyl and polyurethan and then comes the standard thick butyl. Dont believe every marketing hype 😉
Such a good explanation. I'm hooked.
I used tubeless tires for a while, not worth the trouble. They do work, but when you have a puncture that's to big the you are left with the mess of cleaning out the sealant at the side of the road, before you can put a inner tube in.
Try Joe's sealant, Conti GP 5k, and the Stans dart. Joe's is the best sealant I have found.
@@ThePaulbself I had conti 5k's. Now riding conti 4 season tires with inner tube. I'm not sure if I will try tubeless again. The roads here in Belgium are just to bad, especially on my route to work, since I ride mostly to get to work and back
I’m sticking with hooks, you can use whichever tire you want.
Last week my new 28mm Conti S TR tire blew off my new Zipp 353 NSW. Just sitting in my living room at 73PSI while I got ready for my first ever hookless ride.
Correct tolerances are critical to press fit bottom brackets too, but I think we all know how that's worked out. I hope they do a better job with hookless rims, but I'm not convinced they will.
One piece and thread-together press fit bottom bracket from BBInfinite and Wheels Mfg cancels out that argument.
@@shannontrainer5857 Not really, it just highlights how bad bike component manufacturers are at complying with standards, and that other companies have had to plug the gap with expensive aftermarket components. I've just had to install a Hope bottom bracket to get around the issue, but I can't really say I'm happy at spending about £100 to fix a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place, if the frame manufacturer (Trek in this case) had done their job properly.
I have had this type of wheel for three months now, Zipp 303s. They feel amazing to ride at around 50 psi with 28mm and I have more confidence cornering at speed. Not to say 25mm tubed tyres can't corner well but the feel and my perception of grip make it easier for me to trust the bike.
The Vittoria Graphene 2.0 only lasted until two days ago when I noticed the tread layer was coming unglued (LBS will do the warranty thing for me), so I took them off and installed the P Zero Race TLR set I ordered a while ago. I had researched compatibility with hookless (tubeless straight side or TSS) but when I unpacked them there is a warning molded into the tyre "do not mount on hookless rims". I was initially very frustrated with this but went to the internet and apparently the first batches were made before testing was completed at Pirelli.
The tyres went on as easily as a conventional setup but I used an airshot to seat them. I think I might have gotten away without it but I had no trouble adding Stan's and inflating them.
My feelings about TSS so far are positive, but remember to check your pressures regularly and add sealant if they are deflating quickly. With the Vittoria tyres it was a little over two months here in Brisbane and the sealant needed refreshing.
I would say if you are in the market for new wheels then go for it, there will be some things to learn and buy but nothing more difficult than running tubes in my opinion and they feel much nicer to ride.
Happy cycling!
Great to hear that the new standard "leaves no ambiguity". Instead of 622mm, it's now 621.95mm. Plus/minus 0.5mm. 😋 Love this.
It's never been 622. MTB used to be 621.5; and road clinchers used to be 621.95. Now it's 621.95 for everything, including road tubeless and hookless. The reason this is an improvement is that tire suppliers can now manufacture to one standard instead of several. This is safer and simpler for everyone.
Bastien Donze these people don't understand the difference between nominal and actual measurements.
Its not new. Also, when the manufactorers doesnt meet the standards anyway, again the customer is the looser.
It's impossible to manufacture to exactly 621.95mm so the standard, like every standard in the whole world, says how close to 621.95mm you have to get to be allowed to say you comply.
Perfect timing! I just learned that my GP5000 TL may not work with my hookless rims, which led to researching this subject! Thanks!
Conti specifically say do not use them on hookless
The same problem here. I do have nice and light hookless rims but the GP5000 TL are a nogo. Tried both Schwalbe and Michelin, they work fine. But would be nice if Continental is going to update the GP5000 TL, still the lowest BRR of all.
@@djjanbo It took Conti about a million years to make a tubeless tyre. Don't hold your breath waiting for a hookless-compatible one.
@@beeble2003 they have one already. The TR version
My head is melting. I just like riding my bike and enjoying the freedom. Tyre and tube is fine for me, don’t need to spend forever stressing on what’s compatible with what, just get on the bike and ride!
Rode a set of hookless rims with tubeless tires at 5 bar for a year or so. Fitted a new pair and rode it at the minimum pressure printed on the tire of 6 bar. The rear blew off after 15 mins of riding... Stick to the 5 bar limit!
Cool video Si. I've been riding tubeless for three yrs. I went tubeless because I thought was cool but, little did I know how much I would enjoy all the haters telling me tubeless horror stories, and they reason why they'll never ever go tubeless.
Ken, I have been riding road tubeless for a long time - whenever it started. I did it after punctures at three races over a weekend ended each race. I reckon I have had three or four ride/race ending punctures over that time, and two of those were sidewall cuts that were terminal for the tyre and would have been if riding tubed. I have finished races with the frame wet with sealant but the tyre got me to the end. I have run tyres down to the carcass, and been surprised when changing the tyre there were holes sealed I had not noticed. Early TL was a PITB but now it is easy, except for any Giant "tubeless ready" rim which are universally awful. I have friends who have tried TL and hated it, and that is fair enough, but for me it has been fabulous. Plenty of haters out there, but I spend a lot less time on the side of the road with a CO2 cannister than I used to. Curiously many of my friends who sledge my TL use on my road bike love TL on their MTB or GX bikes. I reckon long term hookless TL will take over.
@@brianglendenning1632 I don't which wheel set you have but, this past August I got a set of Zipp 303 Firecrest wheels. OMG they are easy to set up and the ride so way better then the Roval cl50's my Tarmac had as OEM. Cheers Brian and just so you know, I don't race I just hate flats riding my bike. Side note I lost 200 grams switching wheel sets.
@@KenSmith-bv4si hi Ken- had a range of TL wheelsets - mainly handbuilt wheels. Tried Various Stans rims, both variants of Pacenti, and currently the new Mavic Open Pro. I find those easy to mount - the issue is pulling spokes despite 32 spoke build using White hubs. But I will give those zipps a go!
@@brianglendenning1632 Thats cool Brian I have a set of Stan's Avion's then I bought my tarmac it came with the Roval CL50's, awesome wheels but, the 303's with 25mm internal rim with 28mm tyres the ride is awesome, 55psi front wheel, 60psi rear wheel.
Always love the deep dive into bike tech nerdery. Thanks, GCN.
Bought a pair of 303 and running Pirelli PZero SL. A breeze to install and pump and the most comfortable setup I had in years. Running 58/62 PSI front and rear. Never go back!!!👍
Using new Zipp 303 Firecrest hookless wheel with 28mm Schwalbe Pro 1 TLE tires at 51/58 tire pressures. Everything so far has worked great. Easy to mount the tire and able to inflate with a track pump. Ride quality is excellent.
51/58 PSI - that's a joke ye?
SAFETY FIRST !! In an industry that values marketing hype and profits over engineering quality assurance/control I am not convinced by this technology yet. Many bike manufacturers still use the consumer as a lab rat by releasing unsafe or not thoroughly tested compatible product.Creaky BB's,holes that are not round,headsets with internal cable routing that can wear and fail,forks that can fail,cranks that fail,the list goes on and on. The whole bike/tyre industry needs to get their shit together IMHO.Standards are not standards until everyone agrees and strictly adheres to them,without conflicting standards and the highest level of QA/QC.
For those thinking that a big bump could easily increase the pressure in a tire to or past Zipp's stated 145 psi (to get a tubeless tire on their hooked rim to blow off), you're wrong. Let's say you inflated your road tubeless tire on that Zipp hookless rim to 100 psi. You'd have to completely compress 31% of your tire (basically 1/3 of your tire) to zero volume to see the tire pressure increase to 145 psi. At more normal road tubeless pressures, say 70psi, you'd have to compress over 51% of your tire to zero volume to get a blow-off. What all that means is that there's no bump that's going to cause a blow-off. A bump could damage the rim so that air pressure is lost, but that's not a blow-off.
tire pressure and volume is not linear...
@@yialanliu , who said it was?
@@robinseibel7540 Your math was assuming it is linear.
With my bikepacking tendencies, I’ll stick with hooked... if I need to replace a tyre out on a trip, I don’t have to worry about what tyres are available
Grrreat video! Tonne of information condensed in to a single place. Very useful for learning and future reference!
Great to see Si again, what a champ!
I've got hookless ( plain rims ) on a 1951 BSA Sport. 26 x 1 1/4" 32-597. Also a Raleigh 20 shopper 20 x 1 3/8". Also a Moulton Mini, 14 x 1 3/8".
You would think that Si, would use SI units like bars for pressure and not imperial measurements.
PSI is the usual measure for tyre pressures in the UK where he's located.
Isn’t the SI unit of pressure the pascal? It’s the ETRTO that specified psi/bar according to the video so that’s what he presented. Who really works in Kpa for tyre pressures anyway? Not many gauges have it as standard, not in UK anyway, we’re still using miles for distance don’t forget! maybe in Europe does anyone know?
@@stephenwills2098 My understanding is that everybody uses PSI or bar for tyre pressures; I’m not aware of anyone using pascals. The OP is probably just mistaken in calling bar the SI unit.
Actually, the OP is just speaking nonsense. I just watched most of the video again and it always seems to give pressures in bar. Sometimes it also quotes PSI, but I didn't notice any case where a pressure was given in PSI only.
Does it for the same reason he spells tire with a Y. That's how they do things in the UK.
I expected this video from doctor Bridgewood, but i missed Si lately, so it's a very welcome figure
Si is so good at this, serious yet not over technical
I have the new ZIPP 303 firecrest hookless rims and have schwalbe pro tubeless 28 mm tires set up on them. There work flawlessly with about 60 psi for me (80kg). I highly recommend! In fact, it was Si’s video about the new Zipp wheels in the summer that convinced me to go this route. Thanks Si!!
yeap wait til they sell you the hookless rims with glued in hooks next, theyre even better yet! gotta love the industry
You mention that hockless wheels will be cheaper but you buy them just once. What about the high price different of tubeless tyres which you buy more frequently, compared with the price of normal tyres?
Lighter wheels, but you're totally right.
I've been using tubeless since 2016. I've noticed no difference in wear rate and have not had a single puncture, including when riding my slick road tyres on gravel.
I feel like a lot of the safety fears are founded on the narrow tires normally used on road bikes. In the automotive realm, a wheel width of 150-175 mm or more is pretty normal, and the tires that will go on it will be at least 25-30 mm wider than the wheel... that in turn means that when pressurized, the forces acting near the bead have a larger normal component than a tangential component. But of course, automotive tires are rarely very high pressure. Many are kept between 35 and 50 psi. That said, there are still use cases where the mechanical load on the tires can change the calculus there (e.g. off-roading, rock climbing), which is why things like beadlock setups exist. Even on a mountain bike or gravel bike, the wider difference between rim width and tire width along with the generally lower pressures afforded by tubeless equals some feasibility... But with road tires, there's barely 5 mmm of difference between tire width and wheel width, meaning that the forces under really high pressure aren't as well aligned to the normal of the rim lip. That also explains why the max pressure rating is ~72 psi. In the before times when inner tubes were still the only game in town, you had hookless wheels as well, but you had the tube pushing against the bead from the inside, so it helped to keep things seated.
#askGCNtech Si mentioned that the optimal pressure for most road riders was much lower than they think. It would be great if you could explain this!
Hi Daniel, there’s a video on GCN about this. Basically, softer tyres absorb vibration from the road that would slow you down, so you go faster with less pressure.
It's always so cool how cycling tech is evolving! Thanks for replying, it's really cool and congrats on your win!
Perhaps this will help. Enve wheels also has their chart and others. They seem pretty consistent in recommendation and are compiled from independent research of each company.
axs.sram.com/guides/tire/pressure
Well of course for tubeless, if not pinch problems (for me) would have to be problem and tubeless has its detractions (for me). I am not heavy either.
@@awesomexistence Wow, that gives a wayyyyy lower number than the other calculator I had used, which was based on the 15% drop method.
Very helpful, and compelling. I do have a question on mounting and repairing a puncture should it occur while riding. I’ve heard it’s a messy process. Can you speak about that? Grazie
Interesting video! I didn’t understand half of it, but am now well up for buying a pair of hookless rims! Thanks 😃👍
Hookless rims didn't come 7 years ago, it was the other way around. Hookless rims were the standard until about the 70's, and then they slowly disappeared because of the non-rigid/flexible tires. Now they've come back because of the tubeless tires
Super geeky, super detailed but oh so satisfying to watch. Thanks.
The research conducted by Silca and Tom Anhalt shows that the optimal pressure for most road riding is somewhere between 85-95psi (I forget the system weight - 80kg, i think?). You can plug your info into Silca's tire pressure calculator and see for yourself. And this backs up my experience as well, riding everything from 24c tires which measure 26.xx to 35c tires which measure out to 37mm. 85-90psi is definitely faster (and not just "feels" faster due to vibration losses) than 60-65psi.
So I am not really sure what the point of wheels that top out at 70 or 75psi is, as rated by the manufacturer. Saying "oh yeah, you can go higher" doesnt work - the manufacturer needs to back up their product and certify that it will work at those higher pressures, else they are just weaseling out.
Great video and explanation. I always ride tubeless but never heard of this. Think it is good to dive into this and checking my wheels and tires. Thanks 👍🔝
Been using tubeless with hooked carbon rims for over 12 months now and really like them. Just not convinced with hookless yet. What happens when a tyre punctures that won't seal and deflates, will the tyre remain seated or possibly roll off the rim? at least with hooks your guaranteed the tyre will remain seated even with a deflated tyre.
It’s far easier to unseat a hooked tire than a hookless. I have a pair of Enve 4.5AR (25 mm internal width, and hookless) and they’re absolute bastards to try and de-bead the tire. If you get a flat at the road side, it is possible to run a tube, but you’re in for some SERIOUS trouble removing the tire to put the tube in. I’ve tested 3 different types of tires, and there’s a slight variance in fitment tightness, but holy shit they’re difficult. If you’re not a staunch believer in tubeless, do not buy a set of hookless rims.
But the wheel weight doesn't matter right? You had that video where you spoke to the Swissside guy.
Might aswell get the wheels that don't cut your tyre choices in half.
Wheel weight matters as much as any other weight.
Wow, clicked on this vid reluctantly but have been pleasantly surprised. Really informative and interesting.
It feels like a development in marketing and lower manufacturing cost
Excellently presented. Didn't seem to be a sales video for Zipp or Pirelli. Having said that, I'm almost certainly going to try these 303 Firecrests with Pirelli tyres this summer 😂
Almost 500 km since using Zipp 353 NSW wheels with Vittoria Corsa Next 28c tires. So far i don't have any problem with this setup. But i did ordered 30c tires, i think 30c will be sweet spot for this wheelset, will be more comfortable, stronger feeling and also i don't think it will be any slower. Roads are mostly not in very good condition where i ride. Also i don't think they are cheaper. I was going to buy Bontrager Aelous RSL 51 but then decided to go with Zipp NSW 353. Lighter and more comfortable for all around use, instead of pure aero. Plus they were almost same price, Bontrager a bit expensive, that's it.
Thanks 🙏🏼 interesting video thanks for sharing your video GCN.
Super helpful video to bring me up to speed. Thanks
Great to hear, we're glad you enjoyed it!
I am mainly interested in the tire pressure advantage/disadvantage thing; could you explain on that, maybe in some dedicated video?
Basically you don't want the tire to be too hard, so it have to "climb" every little pepple on the road. You want the tire to be just supple enough to absorb the roughness of the drive surface.
I had no idea about all this hookless stuff! Thanks for the heads up.
I'm running the Zipp 303s wheelset with Vittoria Corsa Tlr 28c (tubeless ready) - 60ml of Stans sealant and it all works flawlessly. 60/62 psi for 85kg rider
Really good video, thanks👏👏👏
Hello everyone. I have bought zipp 303s wheels with this system in february 2020. my experience is good. The only drawback is that there are only two tyres on the market for this system. They are schalwe pro one tle and pirelli zero tlr. The first one lasted 1300 kms on the rear tyre and I had to change it, the second one with 1300 kms I have removed it to finish wearing it on the front wheel. The front tyre has 2800 kms and is still half life. For the reason of the high wear I tried with Pirelli and I think it's better, it's heavier, but I think I will mount schalwe in front 25 and pirelli in the back 28. In short it is a great wheel, weight 1540grams that you can ride with a good tyre the pirelli but this limitation of nerumaticos in the market is the only thing that worries me. if it is true that there are two but schalwe weighs 260grams but it wears out very soon and it is worth 55euros.
Very interessting that my Schürmann steel rims from the 70s are hookless as well
Interesting to see from your video that Pirelli emboss tyre info just above the bead. I have found that the tyre doesn’t quite seal at that position until the sealant works it way around to that position. The raised writing compromises the bead rim interface. Not a huge deal obvs but why put it there? Great clear video 👍
That is an interesting observation.
Good point. It’s infact been moved upper to the rim line. Mass production is running withou that now 👍
Another complication for us recreational bike riders. It's bad enough with certain tubeless tires & tubeless (ready) wheelsets, now we have to insure that every tire that we consider must be compatible with hookless rims.
Thanks a lot for your brilliant explanation!
I’ve been using hookless tubeless for years and would never go back… hear so many people question but it’s honestly the way forward
It’s not the way forward for road cycling rims. The margin of safety from an engineering standpoint is unacceptably small with zero benefit to the consumer. Smaller safety margin so Zipp and Enve can improve their margins.
Thank you so much! Great video
Inflating a tire on a static test to 200 psi before it fails is one thing, but what about friction tests? You don’t want to have the rim fail or the tire explode if you’re descending at 70km/h+ and braking before a tight corner for instance. 5 bars means to me that it’s mostly useful for tire width of 28mm or more. Also disc brakes are mandatory for that IMO. I’ve been using tubeless tires for the last 3 years and I’m very happy about the technology, but this one I’m on the fence.
No-one sensible has rim brakes anymore.
W DL
They cost less, are lighter and work.
@@granthutchinson5937 Not in the rain they don't.
@@manfredmuench2657Maybe on carbon wheels, but on aluminium wheels they work well in the wet.
so if you have a hookless rim that is meant to have a max pressure of 72.5, but a tubeless tyre with a min pressure of 70psi, and a chart that say i should inflate my tyres to 80 psi, what pressure to you use.
Si teaches things better than most of university professors.
And what are the wheels brands doing about the chance of damage on the rims caused for hitting a pan hole, for exemple, riding tyre pressures as low as under than 5 bar?
Thank you for this videos, I suggested it not long ago. All the best and good content.
Really helpfully video this GCN Tech thanks.
I have a question for you though. What’s the deal with Zipp 303s wheel sets and the Continental GP5000 tyres. I’m hearing they’re not comparable. What’s your thoughts?
Im embracing hookless & have some 303 S rims on order. LBS said I won't get them until January or February though!
I used a schwalbe mtb marathon wire tire (clincher) with a tube on my hookless cross country rim for over 4000km, never had an issue, infact, kevlar bead tires got so loose after 800km that they wouldnt hold pressure for an entire day
So... My question is... What if your total system weight is outside the "normal range". With 28mm clinchers I run PSI well into the 85+ range for a 118 kg total system weight. Are hookless rims essentially not a good idea for high system weight?
The "normal range" is just a incitive indication to convince poeple to ride on lower pressure. In your case, you actually HAVE to ride it 5.12 bar front and 5.44 bar rear to be obtimal (following sram pressure calculator). You're not just stubornly riding overpressured by tradition but actually because it is obtimal for your system weight. Tires are actually tested well above these pressures so don't worry, just ride it the obtimal way. ;) 5.44 bar is not even 10% higher that 5.0 bar.
Super useful thank you
Will never ride a tube again after now switching from tube to tubeless for a second time. So much more comfortable. Better handling.
Nice!
And I set my psi at 72.5 just experimenting to see how low I can go with the pressure. Very comfortable could probably dip into the 60 psi range with no issue. Aluminum caad13 and the tires/tyres absorb a lot of the chip seal in Texas.
Hi, very good explanation. I only have one doubt. Does the TLR tires work on this rims or it has to be especifically tubless. thanks
Hookless rims are not new. When I first started riding in the 1970's all my rims were hookless. And I did have several blowouts, including one at speed which I survived. One happened when the bike was parked! Mavic came out with the first hooked rim that I saw. It was such an obviously superior design, I got on them immediately, and haven't, and won't, look back.
A ton has changed since our 1970’s Free Spirit and Huffy bikes. There’s really no fair comparison.
Surely that should be 621.95mm +/- 0.05mm rather than 0.5mm. A half mm tolerance on something specified to 2 decimal places seems huge.
I am only just getting used to the concept of tubeless tyres and yet here we are with this new hookless technology.
That is because Notubes holds the patent on BST bead socket technology.
Thank you for all your videos, I have learned a lot. I'm in the process of switching to tubeless on the advice of my local bike shop. I'm wondering if you have switched yourself?
thanks GCN
Informative video. I'll stay with clinchers until they are no longer manufactured which will not be in my lifetime because I'm old.
It's great that more rim manufacturers are getting on board with dimension and pressure standards. But to complete the equation, tire manufacturers must also join the party and to date, few have.
Great in paper. But you really think the factories in china give a shit about the super tight tolerances? Yeah maybe in their make belief world that would happen
I'm really considering the Firecrest 303 hookless and run a 28mm tire. My only concern... will this be ok for heavy riders that are 85kg and over?
Don't know about the firecrest specifically but I run the Giant SLR1 rims at 115kg. Haven't had a problem so far in 2000km.
I’m completely satisfied of my hookless gravel wheelset. I run with 2bar pressure, I went over 60kmh on a gravel descent and I felt I was on tarmac! But I do not agree with the fact they are cheaper: all the wheel builders ride the fact that it is new and the costs are at least the same as the hooked if not higher...that’s where I live!
So Why the Pirelli P zero TLR is ONLY compatible with hookless rims in 28mm and 30mm tires, BUT NO with 24mm and 26mm tires? It has to be more than how strong the tire bead is because I would think that all the P zero tires are fabricated with the same quality standards and the only thing that it is suppose to change is the tire dimension. Thank you.
Indeed, a 28C tyre on the Zipp 303S rim will likely measure wider than 30mm, exceeding the external rim width of 27mm and killing any aero gains. You would need to run a 25C to have any hope of preserving any aero advantage on this wheelset.
That is due to inflating pressure: the smaller the Tyre the higher the min and max pressure, and for a 24 and 26 (which are designed according to new ETRTO, so measuring an effective 26 on 19c rims) the 5bar limit is simply too low and doesn’t make sense form a ride quality perspective too.
Thanks for informative video- 5 bar would seem to be a bit low for the tandem 130kg?
If there isn't lots of pressure in the back tyre, when you stand on a hill it feels like there's a ball and chain hanging off the back of the bike.
Exactly.
Thanks excellent video.
Well what i want to ask you is if its possible to use this wheel without tubeless and a tire pressure of 100 to 120 psi? Whould you take the risk o just make another wheel choice?
Thanks!!
Wow Si twice in one week. Bonus
Wrt safety. The state of truing is the more critical.... As, truing dimensional variations (as built and between truings) are much greater than the 0.1 mm standards specification.
Has there been any testing around punctures and how well a hookless rim holds a tyre if you suddenly get a flat? I use hooked tubeless, and unseating the bead is really difficult which gives me a bit of confidence that if I’m descending and get a big slash in my tyre I won’t be rolling on carbon before I have the chance to stop.
Unseating the bead is the same on hookless, because it’s not the sidewall of the rim that holds it in place on either hooked or hookless, it’s the rim bed. So with tubeless tyre you’ll be fine.
@@simonrichardson5259 Thanks. Seems like a complete no brainier then.
I'm currently using hookless rims and so far not had a problem.
One thing you forgot to mention is that Pirelli state on their website that their P ZERO™ Race TLR SL 24-622 and P ZERO™ Race TLR SL 26-622 are NOT compatible with hookless rims.
Great info
Not to blow the Specialized horn too hard, but they've abandoned tubeless tech in their further road rim/tyre development. They seem to always be on the pointy end of developments too, so I'm not hanging onto hope this road tubeless trend will become the mainstream.
Yup, and I don’t even see why use tubeless on road. The whole point of them (offroad) is to run lower pressure and not get pinch punctures...Most people on road ride 100psi or higher, and flats are usually from cuts (sealant won’t seal). And even if it’s a small hole that seals, you’d lose a lot of pressure with so small amount of air in the tires and have to pump 1-2times.
@@izi941 Sorry, but your comment's basically 100% wrong. People run high pressure in road clincher tyres because the tyre is narrow and you need that pressure to avoid pinch flats, not because high pressures are somehow intrinsically good. If you didn't need to run high pressure to avoid pinch flats (i.e., if you weren't using inner tubes), you wouldn't need such high pressure.
I've run road tubeless for about a year and had plenty of punctures that have sealed just fine. Small shards of glass create small holes that sealant can easily deal with. No extra pumping is required and, even if it was, putting a couple of pumps of air in your tyre is about a hundred times faster than replacing an inner tube.
@@beeble2003 Where are you riding that you've had plenty of punctures in a year? I average 1 puncture a year putting in about 200k a week. Within our local bike club we average about 4-5 flats year for the whole group (60 riders). Maybe you should consider switching back to tubes.
@@marcpost4034 My "plenty of punctures" makes it sound like a ton. I probably get a puncture every two or three months, riding about the same distance as you. No way I'm going back to tubes: with tubes, that means I have to fix a puncture every couple of months; with tubeless, they just seal themselves and I continue riding.
(Well, actually, I have a tube in my rear tyre at the moment. In early December, I hit a pothole in the dark so hard I damaged my rear rim, so I'm now running a tube on that tyre. I'll replace the wheel in the spring, once the roads aren't covered in grit and crud.)
@Maciej Jan Długosz Ok but I think we’re talking about road riding here.
The 72 psi info really baffles me. I understand that on gravel or bad, bumpy asphalt these lower pressures may actually improved rolling resistance. But after smoke testing I know that running my tires on relatively smooth roads at 100-120 psi produces a lower rolling resistance and more efficient ride. I'm not using tires that can only be inflated to 72 psi unless it's on gravel or s*^*ty roads.
Could I use these wheels 303 firecrest with chamber inside? On the page it says that a good size is 700x28 and I have the good year supersport, but when putting them on it is impossible to fit them with a chamber inside, other mechanics tell me that they can only be used with tubulars, thanks for helping me clear up my doubts
I am less concerned about a failure from over-pressurizing a tire than I am concerned about dynamically rolling the tire off the rim. You riders of sew-up tires know what I mean. This new combination of hookless/tubeless makes the 'rolling the tire' phenomena a more complicated situation because as you unseat the tire a bit, you lose your air pressure. In the old days at least you had to roll off/over an inflated tire.
Optimum tyre pressure is when the tyre has a 15% drop when you're sat on the bike. That's just under 2mm flare each side on a 25mm tyre.
In a critical puncture it's possible to fit one inner tube to keep going and back home or stop no next LBS?
I’ll stick with tubes and hooks.
I’m sold.