not a lot of guys would drop better part of 4 g’s and then be honest that it was a waste of money. respect for honest review! and, i agree with others, you can probably rectify whole situation with the mid length pipe
New 2 into1 exhaust would be the right move. Changing exhaust is easier and cheaper then throwing the old cams back in. At the end of the day do what makes you happy.
The 140hp dyno chart you showed was from my Challenger. My recommendation for you is to get the Lloydz Sawicki 2:1 Mid-Length stainless exhaust. It is a key to this combo and tuning running optimally... from what I understand, the tune was developed with this exact combo. Sounds great at idle and cruise, not too loud but you definitely know the bike is running. When you rip the throttle it sounds so raw and throaty! Bike got better gas mileage on the way home than it did on the way to Sturgis, went from 33mpg to 38mpg... and I was I ripping higher speeds and feeling it out a lot more. Bike also runs cooler now when idling or riding at low speeds for extended periods of time. Overall I am very happy with the setup, the money spent, and how my Challenger runs now.
@@darcher5888 Your K1600b puts down 134hp and 117trq at the tire (the 160hp they claim is rated at the crank)... the full Lloydz setup has the Indian Challenger out performing your BMW.
THAT'S a brilliant tune and result. Exactly what should happen when an engine and components work seamlessly together, & the improved cooling confirms it! We don't have these options sadly in Australia, with only one place doing Lloyds remote tunes, and some VERY bad press about them sadly. Exhausts are absolutely expensive, with our crappy dollar, and the massive freight costs. Can you send us a video clip with sound of your bike? Would love to hear how it sounds.
@@GraemeBlore Thanks! I just posted a quick clip of my Challenger getting onto the on-ramp and then the interstate on my TH-cam channel. I'll get some idling video and walk around shots later this week.
I've been very happy with my Indian OEM Stage II cams and tune. Great ridability, power and torque and keeping the warranty intact as well. Did this on my 22 Pursuit and 23 Pursuit Elite.
Good morning Brian. Disappointing news for sure, sorry to hear. At this point I’d ride it for a while until I could get back to Lloyd’s and get the 2 into 1 pipe installed. In for a penny, in for a pound…best of luck
Two things…. One: We can race now 😊 Other thing… just get the recommended exhaust and enjoy the fruits of your expenditure. I personally liked the power and sound your bike made the way you bought it with the Indian cams… I know you are very noise conscious with exhaust, but you probably should just bite the bullet and change the exhaust. I respect your honest review. Look forward to the follow up after you change the exhaust out.
Wow & thank you for getting this out. Yes, Lloyd did say that that optimum performance would he achieved by a 2 into 1 pipe. But the Sawicki/Lloyd'z pipe is not the only one out there. Toce (see Ridingfish), S&S, Bassani & a lot of others have 2 into 1 that could get better results. Granted the look is not what you're used to on a big v-twin engine. And you could always run a ghost pipe set up (see D&D). But I understand & sympathize with you on the underwhelming lack of performance after the build up & the staggering costs involved. Would understand if you called a day on modification, for now, but in pursuit of the full potential of that motorcycle, a good 2 into 1 is going to be a necessity.... I'll keep watching
The tune that was loaded was developed with the Lloydz Sawicki mid-length 2:1 exhaust. The primaries are stepped about 6" from the exhaust port, I believe they are equal length as well. A lot of trial and error, testing and tuning was done with this particular combo. I'm not saying you won't get the numbers my bike did (140/130) with a different exhaust, but that the combo wasn't just thrown together. Lloydz has done extensive testing to retain low end and mid range while significantly improving horsepower from 4k RPM on up to the limiter at 6500rpm. I do most of my riding from 3500rpm on up... this cam fits my riding style perfectly.
Hey Brian; First I want to say how sorry I am over your disappointment. I feel you. That said; I want to tell you that in the US I own a ‘22 Pursuit premium with stage one and stage two upgrades installed before delivery to me. I also own a new challenger dark horse without any engine upgrades, in Dubai, although I did install the remote preload shock system as soon as I could. These comments are coming late but here’s my two cents: I spent a lot of time thinking about going for the full Lloydz treatment, but three things held me back: -1: I have no mechanical aptitude at all… so if anything goes wrong it’s off to my dealer, and the warranty would be gone. My dealer sold me the bike with the “forever warranty” and I like the fact that I have that, so this is a thing. -2: Lloydz is either 9 hours or 14 hours away from me, depending on whether I head north of Champaign Illinois, or south. I’m not saying there will ever be a problem with the install-we all know that Lloydz work is top notch and the quality of the components is first rate, no doubt about that-but things do break, for whatever reason. -3: the last thing that held me back was the marginal utility of the upgrade vs the cost. I know it will out out more up and more tq if I had went with Lloydz, but just how much more I’ll actually experience this is where the calculation is: I use the pursuit for touring; I did 5500 miles last summer in two weeks of riding, through 11 states…. It’s not quite as epic as your Sturgis run, but I was loaded with gear and I’m not sure how much more pleasure I would have gotten from the bike if I had gone full bore Lloydz… but like you said; your mileage in this respect may vary from mine. At this point I might say, in for a penny, in for a pound. You’re obviously unhappy with the new setup. Your choice, it seems to me, is to either go all in and get the results you hoped for, or go back to the original setup and plead with Barb to forgive you.
Thanks for commiserating with me. Unfortunately when I bought my cams there wasn’t a lot of empirical evidence on what to expect. Lloyd even told me, “we’ve never done a bike with Indian slip ons”. I was expecting more horsepower and the same torque. As it is now, I’m loving with it, have become used to it as it is and will likely leave it unchanged because a loud exhaust system is not in the cards for me.
The pipe is very important. I had a nice some years ago. Big bore kit screaming eagle heads and S&S gear drive cans . When I eventually put a 2-1 thunderheader and and a tuner made a big difference. So you already mentioned that bikes with 2-1 pipes were getting significantly better results. IMHO the pipe is the finishing piece to get the results you were expecting. It’s very common that when you make modifications like a cam that an upgrade in an air cleaner , a quality pipe and a tuner all combined to get the best results. Also if you’re not doing a big road trip removing the tour pack will save some weight if it’s easily removable. Bottom line get the pipe and tuned for it .
I have met Lloyd many times and discussed these cams with him in June. Not sure I need them due to cost v benefit. Running his exhaust which I love v Indian stage 1 pipes also have the remote tune and the bike runs really hard. Why mess with it. My suggestion is change exhaust make the power you want and be done.
If you want a little bit more sound and performance, CMP exhausts.. wow.. so so good! I got the mid length in it is phenomenal, if you get the full length 2 in 1 also sounds fantastic!! So much performance there
Wow, sorry to hear about that Brian. My Challenger is currently at Indian Charlotte getting Lloydz cams and Lloydz slipon's installed. Now you have me nervous. It is a lot of money. I guess I'll find out on Friday when I pick my bike up how well I faired. Thanks for your videos and your honesty!
Since you’re in for over $3600 I would go full Lloyd’s build and add his pipe to optimize the power output. Just stands to reason that his cams were designed to run with his pipes.
Hi Brian, Those bikes have tons of power bare bones stock, I have a 2016 Victory tons of power stock. I understand everybody wants a little more out of there motor and that includes me. But the way I see it, just a high air flow air cleaner, power tuner, I have the cobra power tuner and a good exhaust and you're good to go. Noticeable power increase from stock without getting into thousands of dollars. Just my opinion, So for where you are at now, I would definitely go with the 2 into 1 exhaust to get the full power out of your upgrades. Good luck , Love your videos! 😎
excellent video content and quality edits! i don’t ride an indian but i do ride. i’m in the winter springs/sanford area. i’ll be sure to give you a friendly biker wave
I went Big Bore kit when i had my 2017 Chieftain and it was the best decision I could have made on that bike. With that said, after seeing multiple posts and videos like this with very low cost to benefit ratio, i have done only K&N air filter and the Rinehart MotoPro45s slip ons on my 2022 Challenger Elite. This bike literally rips and sounds amazing to me. I haven't even tuned it or removed the CAT, and 1 year later still have zero desire to mess with it. Perhaps I got lucky and the tune on my bike and hardware are perfectly mated somehow, but i get zero throttle lag and excellent performance. I have ridden some other stock Challengers and my buddy's Pursuit and they don't feel as tight or cohesive for lack of better words. After all of that, if i were you, i would have to put a 2 into 1 pipe on at this point. You may as well try and make the best of what you have there. From one Brian to another, I hope it works out for you brother.
Great video as always remington! Doesn't get any more real than this...I'd say it's time to try a different pipe. I can agree with ya that I don't want any louder either but ya can't have your cake and eat it too. Can't wait for the rest of the videos!
Like has been stated many times in the comments, Pipes will really open it up. You made it so it breathes in easier but it isn't exhaling properly. Beautiful bike by the way.
Like almost everyone else id slap the most optimal exhaust on. If that's the restriction point ya can't blame the parts already on if the whole package isn't there. I had the opportunity to ride one of Lloyd's sport chiefs that he's fiddling with and can I just say as soon as I get the chance I'm buying it. Thing is absolutely awesome for a cruiser and I come from a sport bike background. Anyway love the channel, trying to learn as much as I can about the Indian platform and being able to hot rod them. Absolute game changer for me.
Well my concern is how loud the bike is. I didn’t really cover it in the video but I have really bad tinnitus and loud shit is just intolerable. I realize in order for me to get what I wanted out of these cams pipes are in order and don’t tell anyone, they are coming soon.
@@TwoIndians That is a very valid point now that you mention it but as with anything in performance there is give and take. I wonder if putting silencers in a loud/performance pipe would give you the gains of the cams but keep it quiet enough to not bother your tinnitus?
I don’t have an Indian yet, hopefully soon. I really do understand the performance aspect and the desire to ‘get there’, however when I had an HD Lowrider and always debated the Screaming Eagle stuff and ultimately decided the cost was too much to even get started down that path. Now that HD is selling 114’s and 117’s off the floor that makes more sense.
My own experiance has always been to get good results that changes must be matched. That said its suprising that changing the cam from your previous stage 2 cam would be exhaust limited and has gone down in torque. While its impractical to do money wise it would be interesting to know what torque and horsepower would be with your stage 2 cams and a new pipe and tune. My hunch is the potential hp for your bike is the pipe and your old stage 2 cams. If you really want the most hp though there is always a turbo which is highly tuneable. With all the coverage you are providing you should have a sponsor stepping up to the plate to showcase their products in the best light. Great video once again.
@@TwoIndians I to be honest think you should have been advised to do the pipes by Lloyds before going ahead as a condition to get the results, just as Indian does. Secondly if the lift and duration of the Lloyds cam is close to the Indian stage 2 cams, then the magic is in the pipe. You still may not like the noise or drivability though. Finaly strictly my own opinion but with all your subscribers if it were my business (and its not) i would have worked with you to showcase the products for the best outcome either costs shared or free since you are promoting their products.
Do the Sawicki 2 into 1 long pipe and have the ECU reprogrammed. Lloyd just came out with a lighter, less restrictive catalytic converter that should be released soon. Replace cat, pipes and reprogram ECU. That’ll make you appreciate the money already spent on the cams.
Having owned several HD's and a couple of Victory bikes which I upgraded. My 2015 Street Glide twin cam 103 was a good bike that I hated riding at the end of the day. Why? Top end power at the expense of low end grunt means less real fun and more "drag strip" performance. I learned my lesson.
Yeah, I don’t think they would do that because it heats up the engine and exhaust and everything before they work on it. They would probably have to do that the day before to let everything cool down.
I think the biggest thing was that you already had aftermarket cams, intake and tuning from a stock bike so you wouldn't have seen much of a change with the Lloyd's set up. That being said, it also seems with the cat still installed, you just can't push more exhaust out of the bike so it's being restricted which is why it still feels like a stock bike. Pulling more in means you have to push more out. Try the exhaust and retune to see where that gets you. You've already spent the money so why not 🤷♂️
Ok if that’s the case then, why would my numbers go UP with the Indian cams but go down with the Lloydz cams? My honest opinion is that these cams are made to work with the Lloydz pipes and should only be sold that way. I would love to hear from Tim and Or Lloyd on this.
@@TwoIndians I would think it's because indians were designed to run with the cat and the Lloyd's were not. So with the correct set up (intake, exhaust) Lloyd's could potentially out perform the indian set up overall. Since it's just the cams and not the entire designed system, it's being hindered from its full potential. If you've seen the evidence of 140hp set up from Lloyd's and you want the top performance you can get, it sounds like you're half way there and just need to complete the system to get the most you can from the engine.
You may be putting a little too much stock in the final torque number. The question is, when you overlay the base dyno pull over top the latest dyno pull, did you get more torque lower in the rev range than before? You may have had a significant torque increase down lower say at 2000 rpms and held that torque longer until it reached its peak. But if you want peak horsepower and torque, you will have to go a two into one exhaust. Personally, for me, I don't like the sound of the two into one exhaust, that's just my preference. Like Lloyd said you can't have everything. You will have to sacrifice something, either the sound or the performance. Good luck with whatever you decide to do , and thank you for sharing your experience.
Been contemplating stage 2 on my road glide limited. I'm afraid of losing take off/ low end torque. Did stage 2 on my old ultra limited, it was slower down low, but you could feel it from 3 to 5 k.😮 Didn't have a 2 into 1. Both dual exhaust
Harley’s have sooooo many options for Cam profiles that you can get just about anything you want to target specific performance goals. Indian Challenger? Not so much.
Yes all bikes are different but I’d argue that between two bikes results should not be any more that a percentage point or two, no more. I’d also argue that if you dynoed two bikes off the assembly line that the max difference wouldn’t be but a percentage point or two. I’d be disappointed as well. Throw on 2 into 1 pipes!
Lloyd was aware that I was putting his cams into a bike with an Indian stage 1 exhaust and said nothing to disuade me from doing so even though he likely understood my results might be less than desirable and that I had no intention of installing loud pipes on this bike. Since that day he has posted several cryptic FB messages telling people that they’re working on “something” and blamed multiple complaints about performance on his need to clarify exactly who should or should not be buying his cams. I’ve reached out multiple times to try and get updates on other options and got crickets from him. Tim on the other hand has been gracious and communicative and understanding of my predicament. It’s not in the video but upon seeing the disappointment on my face Lloyd essentially gave me nothing more than a shoulder shrug and a “oh well” response. There’s more info that I won’t go into but yes a set of pipes may be in the works. Money is always an issue.
After reading through the comments and thinking of your interest in performance (high torque and good HP), maybe a new Hayabusa would be a consideration to add to your stable. (Something I’m considering! Same age as you.)
Do you have the Tab crossover pipe to eliminate the CAT? You would not believe the difference in sound and power. It's not louder until you hit the throttle. It also is an easy install. Thanks for your channel I also have a 22 Limited. Wonderful machine.
A 2-into-1 exhaust is what the tune was designed for, it will also get optimum flow and have less weight than the dual exhaust. The factory primaries are not that great, they are not stepped or equal length.
@@UnrulyRider he can’t deal with the noise. It’s all a trade off isn’t it? I prefer staying away from engine mods. There is little return on investment.
@@dhess140 Went from 112hp & 118trq to 140hp & 130trq. My Challenger had a modified Bassani exhaust and Stage 1 Indian calibration before the Lloydz parts/tune and it didn't run right at all. It would occasionally stall when coming to stop or idling for awhile. It ran hot, throttle was twitchy and overly sensitive, and would average 33mpg. After the Lloydz parts and tune the throttle is smoother, no more quarks at low speed. Engine runs cooler and gets better fuel economy (38mpg). Passing power has definitely increased. For the money I'd say it was very much worth it.
@@dhess140 Removing the cat would be a great test to see if the numbers bump up or if the flow limitation is in the primary pipes before the merge. Would also be considerably cheaper than the 2:1 while still allowing Brian to run chrome slip-on mufflers he has already purchased. I'm with you on this, he should probably go this route first.
The 23’s and 24’s apparently can be unlocked now but it does cost quite a bit more than 22 and below. Apparently there may also be limits to what can be altered but I’m only going by what I’ve read. Reach out to Ryan at RVS Performance, I know he’s doing this.
@@TwoIndians thanks. I dont even have an Indian yet. But researching. If I were Indian I would make tuning easier to beat the competition no? They should be having 101 tutorials at HQ inviting tuners for the sake of gaining on HD. You recommend RVS over Lloyds?
He needs the exhaust to maximize the gains. The combo and tune where all designed to work together, he is missing a vital part of the combo being the tuned length and stepped primary 2:1 exhaust.
Thanks for the honest videos. So have you got your new 2 into 1? I had heard that Rinehart was coming out with a 2 into 1 for the Challenger? I have always had good results with Bassani 2 into 1 exhausts. Whatever you get i would recommend an exhaust with heat shields. Good luck, and looking forward to your future exhaust updates.
Brother I hope you can answer this. Why are these motors on the Challenger so loud on the top-end are you having their trouble. And if so how come you haven't spoke about it are you having to same trouble
Which tune performed better with the Indian Cams and intake, RVS or Lloyds? I have the Indian Stage 1 and 2 upgrades and am curious which tune I should get?
Ok Brian fellow Challenger rider here.Chin up man love your bike color ! My first Challenger was 20 base Lloyds tune ,Indian air and Sawicki 2into1 shorty exhaust. If you go with the Sawicki exhaust it will be VERY loud.I like loud some dont.
Strange .. appears my first comment was deleted by YT; I just said it appears you may want to get the Lloydz pipes that correspond to the cam you purchased and “hopefully” you’ll get the 130 torque out of that addition.
Get the lloyds exhaust, you already spent the money on his cams. Make an installment video of the exhaust for us diy guys. Then another video on dyno of lloyds exhaust and cams! Do it!
The more aggressive a cam the more it brings up horsepower and not as much on the torque. And they are correct a good 2/1 would make a big difference. Toce has a slipon 2/1 with a really nice bag hanger rack. It uses your stock headers. At I thing $795 it might put a smile back on your face.
That’s a tough one Brian. I’d hate to see you throw even more money at it but a new exhaust is probably in your future. Maybe Lloyd will comp you one 🤔
So If you buy a new exhaust you're looking at a minimum of $5k. Is that cost worth 15-20hp? And how often and how long are you going to be in the upper rpm range to enjoy the power? If you were going to get 140-150lb ft of torque I would say Probably worth it because you would feel it every time you twist the throttle especially down low. I appreciate the honesty and was thinking of possibly getting his cam but I highly doubt it now. I hope you eventually get what you were expecting.
When I buy a Pursuit, I'm keeping it FACTORY equipped. Just want it for long distance "cruising." I went through all of that upgrading crap with my 2019 Springfield. Spent a fortune, and honestly I regret it all. Should have just left it all alone.
Well I know you don’t like a loud exhaust for your bike so you could always switch back to the other cams and sell what you just bought or you could get a different exhaust I’m probably pretty sure you already know all this it just sucks to be in your predicament I hope that you find an avenue of correction that suits you.
It’s all about the entire COMBO. it’s been ridin into the ground in the comments.. but talk to loyd and get what pipe he recommends to make the power it should. 140/140
So i put on a Bassani 2:1. Haven’t dyno’d it yet but I can tell you my butt tells me there was no change in torque. Still anemic. HP did increase on the other hand so some upside but overall disappointed considering the investment. The worst part is He knew I did not like/want loud pipes like a Sawiki but did not discourage me from getting the cams. One of the worst purchase decisions/experiences I’ve ever made. I know some others like yourself have had good luck and I think that’s great but for me 👎 and I’m not alone.
@@TwoIndiansif it makes u feel any better I did a 124 on my road glide and got some bad cam advice Wanted a solid mid range cam From my research I said I was interested in either 483 or 482(made for high compression 124/128s).. went with the 482 bc they said it would come up sooner. Nah shit don’t light up til 3500 or so. They SHOULDA said u want that 482 cam u NEED a 2-1 and a 64mm intake/TB to really make it sing. She rips and slaps like a drunk step dad from 4-6k But I ride with my ole lady and that shit don’t work well for that and I wanna ride 3-5k or so. Sucks. Spent so Much money now I got a less than perfect combo.
If I were you I would take the bike back to the other dyno.. it looked a tad high but also you were at sea level and Sturgis isn't exactly.. it would give you a more clear picture of your before and after
it will be a little while before i can get it on another dyno but yes, thats in my plan. theres a local guy here thats run my bikes mutliple times and i know what to expect from it
@UnrulyRider I understand that, but if the dyno he uses, say is juicier than Lloyd'z because of who knows.. then Maybe the gain is better than he thinks.. but I also understand that because of his setup, he may have room for optimizing but this is just for mire apples to apples.. thats all.. I mean I got a discount code for Toce.. LMK
@zacharyedwards327 My bike is getting finished up, when I land in the US I'll go pick it up a couple weeks later!! Ride that SPICY girl home!!! I'll tell you everything then
In your case after spending $3600, it would seem foolish to dump that money down the drain when you can spend another $1500 to get a Lloydz exhaust and retune for it. This will likely put you way above where you were with the stage 2 cams in both Tq and Hp... Then you'll be happy with your bike again. 😎
@@TwoIndians ... Eww, that's a going to be a problem. You're going to need to open it up to get what you want out of the setup you now have. Like you said, the intake is an unknown factor. If you go back to your stage 2 cams, the power may not return to the Tq levels you had before the Lloydz work.
Thanks for saving me 4k. I appreciate you sir.
I have since upgraded my exhaust to a 2:1 Bassani and it helped tremendously. Have yet to have it on a dyno but it’s a big improvement.
not a lot of guys would drop better part of 4 g’s and then be honest that it was a waste of money. respect for honest review! and, i agree with others, you can probably rectify whole situation with the mid length pipe
New 2 into1 exhaust would be the right move. Changing exhaust is easier and cheaper then throwing the old cams back in. At the end of the day do what makes you happy.
The 140hp dyno chart you showed was from my Challenger. My recommendation for you is to get the Lloydz Sawicki 2:1 Mid-Length stainless exhaust. It is a key to this combo and tuning running optimally... from what I understand, the tune was developed with this exact combo. Sounds great at idle and cruise, not too loud but you definitely know the bike is running. When you rip the throttle it sounds so raw and throaty! Bike got better gas mileage on the way home than it did on the way to Sturgis, went from 33mpg to 38mpg... and I was I ripping higher speeds and feeling it out a lot more. Bike also runs cooler now when idling or riding at low speeds for extended periods of time. Overall I am very happy with the setup, the money spent, and how my Challenger runs now.
thats awesome! yeah thats funny, I noticed much better fuel mileage on the way homne as well.
I loved my Challenger and Sawicki pipe. However, it wasn’t fast compared to my new BMW K1600b! Zero comparison!
@@darcher5888 Your K1600b puts down 134hp and 117trq at the tire (the 160hp they claim is rated at the crank)... the full Lloydz setup has the Indian Challenger out performing your BMW.
THAT'S a brilliant tune and result. Exactly what should happen when an engine and components work seamlessly together, & the improved cooling confirms it! We don't have these options sadly in Australia, with only one place doing Lloyds remote tunes, and some VERY bad press about them sadly. Exhausts are absolutely expensive, with our crappy dollar, and the massive freight costs. Can you send us a video clip with sound of your bike? Would love to hear how it sounds.
@@GraemeBlore Thanks! I just posted a quick clip of my Challenger getting onto the on-ramp and then the interstate on my TH-cam channel. I'll get some idling video and walk around shots later this week.
Just enjoy your riding for a while before you make any decisions
In time more options will come your way 👍
Keep your current exhaust, and just enjoy what you have. It looks like it runs pretty good as is.
I was 133hp/126tq. Lloydz cams & flash installed during Sturgis. Challenger already had a K&N, Cat delete and 2:1 TAB Performance slip-on.
Those aren’t bad numbers at all. I would’ve been pretty happy with that
I've been very happy with my Indian OEM Stage II cams and tune. Great ridability, power and torque and keeping the warranty intact as well. Did this on my 22 Pursuit and 23 Pursuit Elite.
Good morning Brian. Disappointing news for sure, sorry to hear. At this point I’d ride it for a while until I could get back to Lloyd’s and get the 2 into 1 pipe installed. In for a penny, in for a pound…best of luck
Two things….
One: We can race now 😊
Other thing… just get the recommended exhaust and enjoy the fruits of your expenditure.
I personally liked the power and sound your bike made the way you bought it with the Indian cams… I know you are very noise conscious with exhaust, but you probably should just bite the bullet and change the exhaust. I respect your honest review. Look forward to the follow up after you change the exhaust out.
Wow & thank you for getting this out. Yes, Lloyd did say that that optimum performance would he achieved by a 2 into 1 pipe. But the Sawicki/Lloyd'z pipe is not the only one out there. Toce (see Ridingfish), S&S, Bassani & a lot of others have 2 into 1 that could get better results. Granted the look is not what you're used to on a big v-twin engine. And you could always run a ghost pipe set up (see D&D). But I understand & sympathize with you on the underwhelming lack of performance after the build up & the staggering costs involved. Would understand if you called a day on modification, for now, but in pursuit of the full potential of that motorcycle, a good 2 into 1 is going to be a necessity....
I'll keep watching
The tune that was loaded was developed with the Lloydz Sawicki mid-length 2:1 exhaust. The primaries are stepped about 6" from the exhaust port, I believe they are equal length as well. A lot of trial and error, testing and tuning was done with this particular combo. I'm not saying you won't get the numbers my bike did (140/130) with a different exhaust, but that the combo wasn't just thrown together. Lloydz has done extensive testing to retain low end and mid range while significantly improving horsepower from 4k RPM on up to the limiter at 6500rpm. I do most of my riding from 3500rpm on up... this cam fits my riding style perfectly.
Hey Brian;
First I want to say how sorry I am over your disappointment. I feel you.
That said; I want to tell you that in the US I own a ‘22 Pursuit premium with stage one and stage two upgrades installed before delivery to me. I also own a new challenger dark horse without any engine upgrades, in Dubai, although I did install the remote preload shock system as soon as I could.
These comments are coming late but here’s my two cents: I spent a lot of time thinking about going for the full Lloydz treatment, but three things held me back: -1: I have no mechanical aptitude at all… so if anything goes wrong it’s off to my dealer, and the warranty would be gone. My dealer sold me the bike with the “forever warranty” and I like the fact that I have that, so this is a thing.
-2: Lloydz is either 9 hours or 14 hours away from me, depending on whether I head north of Champaign Illinois, or south. I’m not saying there will ever be a problem with the install-we all know that Lloydz work is top notch and the quality of the components is first rate, no doubt about that-but things do break, for whatever reason.
-3: the last thing that held me back was the marginal utility of the upgrade vs the cost. I know it will out out more up and more tq if I had went with Lloydz, but just how much more I’ll actually experience this is where the calculation is: I use the pursuit for touring; I did 5500 miles last summer in two weeks of riding, through 11 states…. It’s not quite as epic as your Sturgis run, but I was loaded with gear and I’m not sure how much more pleasure I would have gotten from the bike if I had gone full bore Lloydz… but like you said; your mileage in this respect may vary from mine.
At this point I might say, in for a penny, in for a pound. You’re obviously unhappy with the new setup. Your choice, it seems to me, is to either go all in and get the results you hoped for, or go back to the original setup and plead with Barb to forgive you.
Thanks for commiserating with me. Unfortunately when I bought my cams there wasn’t a lot of empirical evidence on what to expect. Lloyd even told me, “we’ve never done a bike with Indian slip ons”. I was expecting more horsepower and the same torque. As it is now, I’m loving with it, have become used to it as it is and will likely leave it unchanged because a loud exhaust system is not in the cards for me.
The pipe is very important. I had a nice some years ago. Big bore kit screaming eagle heads and S&S gear drive cans . When I eventually put a 2-1 thunderheader and and a tuner made a big difference.
So you already mentioned that bikes with 2-1 pipes were getting significantly better results. IMHO the pipe is the finishing piece to get the results you were expecting.
It’s very common that when you make modifications like a cam that an upgrade in an air cleaner , a quality pipe and a tuner all combined to get the best results.
Also if you’re not doing a big road trip removing the tour pack will save some weight if it’s easily removable.
Bottom line get the pipe and tuned for it .
I have met Lloyd many times and discussed these cams with him in June. Not sure I need them due to cost v benefit. Running his exhaust which I love v Indian stage 1 pipes also have the remote tune and the bike runs really hard. Why mess with it. My suggestion is change exhaust make the power you want and be done.
If you want a little bit more sound and performance, CMP exhausts.. wow.. so so good! I got the mid length in it is phenomenal, if you get the full length 2 in 1 also sounds fantastic!! So much performance there
I’ll have to look at it. I’m getting close to pulling the trigger on something. I’m going to stalking Daytona listening to different systems.
Change the pipes to max your torque as you mentioned. You already have the investment so max your torque.
Wow, sorry to hear about that Brian. My Challenger is currently at Indian Charlotte getting Lloydz cams and Lloydz slipon's installed. Now you have me nervous. It is a lot of money. I guess I'll find out on Friday when I pick my bike up how well I faired. Thanks for your videos and your honesty!
I’ll be interested to know how it turns out for you!
Hey how did it pan out?
I have 23 Challenger. Just put the Lloyd’z exhaust on. Thinking of going 540 cams route next
Since you’re in for over $3600 I would go full Lloyd’s build and add his pipe to optimize the power output. Just stands to reason that his cams were designed to run with his pipes.
Facts
Seems pretty obvious time for new pipes
I too have done all of Montana and Wyoming , Yellowstone, beartooth did it alone and sometimes 28 degrees it was my best trip yet.
Hi Brian, Those bikes have tons of power bare bones stock, I have a 2016 Victory tons of power stock. I understand everybody wants a little more out of there motor and that includes me. But the way I see it, just a high air flow air cleaner, power tuner, I have the cobra power tuner and a good exhaust and you're good to go. Noticeable power increase from stock without getting into thousands of dollars. Just my opinion, So for where you are at now, I would definitely go with the 2 into 1 exhaust to get the full power out of your upgrades. Good luck , Love your videos! 😎
excellent video content and quality edits! i don’t ride an indian but i do ride. i’m in the winter springs/sanford area. i’ll be sure to give you a friendly biker wave
editing is my thing bro! LOL. CHeck out the ride videos. In the middle of my sturgis series now.
yea i wish i could join ya. i ride an ultra so its more than capable to handle it. i watched the vidz….great stuff!
I went Big Bore kit when i had my 2017 Chieftain and it was the best decision I could have made on that bike. With that said, after seeing multiple posts and videos like this with very low cost to benefit ratio, i have done only K&N air filter and the Rinehart MotoPro45s slip ons on my 2022 Challenger Elite. This bike literally rips and sounds amazing to me. I haven't even tuned it or removed the CAT, and 1 year later still have zero desire to mess with it. Perhaps I got lucky and the tune on my bike and hardware are perfectly mated somehow, but i get zero throttle lag and excellent performance. I have ridden some other stock Challengers and my buddy's Pursuit and they don't feel as tight or cohesive for lack of better words.
After all of that, if i were you, i would have to put a 2 into 1 pipe on at this point. You may as well try and make the best of what you have there. From one Brian to another, I hope it works out for you brother.
New pipes, but go for the longer 2-1. As Lloyd says Shorty = hp, Long = torque and mid is a mix.sounds like you want torque.
Correct. Pipes are on order! Shhhhh. Don’t tell anyone, it’s our secret
Great video as always remington! Doesn't get any more real than this...I'd say it's time to try a different pipe. I can agree with ya that I don't want any louder either but ya can't have your cake and eat it too. Can't wait for the rest of the videos!
Thanks FJ!
They do sell 2-1 pipes with a ghost pipe so you can keep the look also, I feel like that would be the best of both
Like has been stated many times in the comments, Pipes will really open it up. You made it so it breathes in easier but it isn't exhaling properly. Beautiful bike by the way.
Recently upgraded to a Bassani 2:1. Torque feels about the same, better HP according to my butt.
Make the change to the 2 into 1 pipes. Good luck!
Like almost everyone else id slap the most optimal exhaust on. If that's the restriction point ya can't blame the parts already on if the whole package isn't there. I had the opportunity to ride one of Lloyd's sport chiefs that he's fiddling with and can I just say as soon as I get the chance I'm buying it. Thing is absolutely awesome for a cruiser and I come from a sport bike background. Anyway love the channel, trying to learn as much as I can about the Indian platform and being able to hot rod them. Absolute game changer for me.
Well my concern is how loud the bike is. I didn’t really cover it in the video but I have really bad tinnitus and loud shit is just intolerable. I realize in order for me to get what I wanted out of these cams pipes are in order and don’t tell anyone, they are coming soon.
Oh, and thanks for the kind words!
@@TwoIndians That is a very valid point now that you mention it but as with anything in performance there is give and take. I wonder if putting silencers in a loud/performance pipe would give you the gains of the cams but keep it quiet enough to not bother your tinnitus?
@@TwoIndians Ohh and you're welcome!! Got the sub and looking forward to what the conclusion is for ya!! 💪🏼💪🏼🤘🏼🤘🏼
Well done B. Tastefully reviewed brother! I know you expected better numbers.
Awesome review. YOLO get the new 2-1 exhaust.
I don’t have an Indian yet, hopefully soon. I really do understand the performance aspect and the desire to ‘get there’, however when I had an HD Lowrider and always debated the Screaming Eagle stuff and ultimately decided the cost was too much to even get started down that path. Now that HD is selling 114’s and 117’s off the floor that makes more sense.
My own experiance has always been to get good results that changes must be matched. That said its suprising that changing the cam from your previous stage 2 cam would be exhaust limited and has gone down in torque. While its impractical to do money wise it would be interesting to know what torque and horsepower would be with your stage 2 cams and a new pipe and tune. My hunch is the potential hp for your bike is the pipe and your old stage 2 cams. If you really want the most hp though there is always a turbo which is highly tuneable.
With all the coverage you are providing you should have a sponsor stepping up to the plate to showcase their products in the best light.
Great video once again.
Good points, all of them. I’m open to offers.
@@TwoIndians
I to be honest think you should have been advised to do the pipes by Lloyds before going ahead as a condition to get the results, just as Indian does. Secondly if the lift and duration of the Lloyds cam is close to the Indian stage 2 cams, then the magic is in the pipe. You still may not like the noise or drivability though.
Finaly strictly my own opinion but with all your subscribers if it were my business (and its not) i would have worked with you to showcase the products for the best outcome either costs shared or free since you are promoting their products.
Do the Sawicki 2 into 1 long pipe and have the ECU reprogrammed. Lloyd just came out with a lighter, less restrictive catalytic converter that should be released soon.
Replace cat, pipes and reprogram ECU.
That’ll make you appreciate the money already spent on the cams.
Well THAT is exciting news
Having owned several HD's and a couple of Victory bikes which I upgraded. My 2015 Street Glide twin cam 103 was a good bike that I hated riding at the end of the day. Why? Top end power at the expense of low end grunt means less real fun and more "drag strip" performance. I learned my lesson.
Wish they would have done a base line pull on it before the cams so you could see exactly where you started and finished on the same dyno.
Yeah, I don’t think they would do that because it heats up the engine and exhaust and everything before they work on it. They would probably have to do that the day before to let everything cool down.
I just had this done on my 22' RM. Huge difference
What exhaust do you have now? I would change the exhaust
Get the Sawicki / Lloyds 2 into 1 long system on it. I think the headers are 2" on them. 🇦🇺
I think the biggest thing was that you already had aftermarket cams, intake and tuning from a stock bike so you wouldn't have seen much of a change with the Lloyd's set up. That being said, it also seems with the cat still installed, you just can't push more exhaust out of the bike so it's being restricted which is why it still feels like a stock bike. Pulling more in means you have to push more out. Try the exhaust and retune to see where that gets you. You've already spent the money so why not 🤷♂️
Ok if that’s the case then, why would my numbers go UP with the Indian cams but go down with the Lloydz cams? My honest opinion is that these cams are made to work with the Lloydz pipes and should only be sold that way. I would love to hear from Tim and Or Lloyd on this.
@@TwoIndians I would think it's because indians were designed to run with the cat and the Lloyd's were not. So with the correct set up (intake, exhaust) Lloyd's could potentially out perform the indian set up overall. Since it's just the cams and not the entire designed system, it's being hindered from its full potential. If you've seen the evidence of 140hp set up from Lloyd's and you want the top performance you can get, it sounds like you're half way there and just need to complete the system to get the most you can from the engine.
You may be putting a little too much stock in the final torque number. The question is, when you overlay the base dyno pull over top the latest dyno pull, did you get more torque lower in the rev range than before? You may have had a significant torque increase down lower say at 2000 rpms and held that torque longer until it reached its peak. But if you want peak horsepower and torque, you will have to go a two into one exhaust. Personally, for me, I don't like the sound of the two into one exhaust, that's just my preference. Like Lloyd said you can't have everything. You will have to sacrifice something, either the sound or the performance. Good luck with whatever you decide to do , and thank you for sharing your experience.
Been contemplating stage 2 on my road glide limited. I'm afraid of losing take off/ low end torque. Did stage 2 on my old ultra limited, it was slower down low, but you could feel it from 3 to 5 k.😮 Didn't have a 2 into 1. Both dual exhaust
Harley’s have sooooo many options for Cam profiles that you can get just about anything you want to target specific performance goals. Indian Challenger? Not so much.
@@TwoIndians I know I like those Indians too!
Yes all bikes are different but I’d argue that between two bikes results should not be any more that a percentage point or two, no more. I’d also argue that if you dynoed two bikes off the assembly line that the max difference wouldn’t be but a percentage point or two. I’d be disappointed as well. Throw on 2 into 1 pipes!
As usual bro thanks for putting this video out 💨🏁
It seems your already into it $.....Gotta get the 2 into 1....
I'd bite the bullet and get that 2to1 and call it a day . Love the channell keep it up.
Thanks for the compliment. Exhaust seems inevitable I suppose. 😞
Lloydz and his guys are stand up guys.
They did 2 of my bikes at his old shop. Just get the pipes and have both HP and TQ.
Lloyd was aware that I was putting his cams into a bike with an Indian stage 1 exhaust and said nothing to disuade me from doing so even though he likely understood my results might be less than desirable and that I had no intention of installing loud pipes on this bike. Since that day he has posted several cryptic FB messages telling people that they’re working on “something” and blamed multiple complaints about performance on his need to clarify exactly who should or should not be buying his cams. I’ve reached out multiple times to try and get updates on other options and got crickets from him. Tim on the other hand has been gracious and communicative and understanding of my predicament. It’s not in the video but upon seeing the disappointment on my face Lloyd essentially gave me nothing more than a shoulder shrug and a “oh well” response. There’s more info that I won’t go into but yes a set of pipes may be in the works. Money is always an issue.
After reading through the comments and thinking of your interest in performance (high torque and good HP), maybe a new Hayabusa would be a consideration to add to your stable. (Something I’m considering! Same age as you.)
My thoughts exactly. A Diavel, VMax, or 14r will all get er done too
Do you have the Tab crossover pipe to eliminate the CAT? You would not believe the difference in sound and power. It's not louder until you hit the throttle. It also is an easy install. Thanks for your channel I also have a 22 Limited. Wonderful machine.
A 2-into-1 exhaust is what the tune was designed for, it will also get optimum flow and have less weight than the dual exhaust. The factory primaries are not that great, they are not stepped or equal length.
@@UnrulyRider he can’t deal with the noise. It’s all a trade off isn’t it? I prefer staying away from engine mods. There is little return on investment.
@@dhess140 Went from 112hp & 118trq to 140hp & 130trq. My Challenger had a modified Bassani exhaust and Stage 1 Indian calibration before the Lloydz parts/tune and it didn't run right at all. It would occasionally stall when coming to stop or idling for awhile. It ran hot, throttle was twitchy and overly sensitive, and would average 33mpg. After the Lloydz parts and tune the throttle is smoother, no more quarks at low speed. Engine runs cooler and gets better fuel economy (38mpg). Passing power has definitely increased. For the money I'd say it was very much worth it.
@@dhess140 Removing the cat would be a great test to see if the numbers bump up or if the flow limitation is in the primary pipes before the merge. Would also be considerably cheaper than the 2:1 while still allowing Brian to run chrome slip-on mufflers he has already purchased. I'm with you on this, he should probably go this route first.
Have tuners unlocked the ecu or still locked by Indian???
The 23’s and 24’s apparently can be unlocked now but it does cost quite a bit more than 22 and below. Apparently there may also be limits to what can be altered but I’m only going by what I’ve read. Reach out to Ryan at RVS Performance, I know he’s doing this.
@@TwoIndians thanks. I dont even have an Indian yet. But researching. If I were Indian I would make tuning easier to beat the competition no? They should be having 101 tutorials at HQ inviting tuners for the sake of gaining on HD. You recommend RVS over Lloyds?
I installed the tab 2 into 1 with zombie baffle . I like that setup it is 600 for that kit.
Just change the exhaust! Leave the cams for now. Keep up the great work 👍
Question:
How much hp & torgue at the wheel gives Indian Stage 2 ?
Don’t remember the exact figures but if you watch the video I tell you pretty clearly. I think it’s 129/119.
Oh sorry. You said for the Indian stage 2. That was 121/129
@@TwoIndians... So difference is small...and you have the warranty from Indian
Iv always heard good things about Loydz stuff until recently. Now this. The videos you made with loyd really made me sceptical of his stuff.
He needs the exhaust to maximize the gains. The combo and tune where all designed to work together, he is missing a vital part of the combo being the tuned length and stepped primary 2:1 exhaust.
You have no choice. 2-1 mid-length pipes. I would also recommend ceramic coating the headers. Helps to control the heat that you feel.
Something is gonna change that’s for sure
Thanks for the honest videos. So have you got your new 2 into 1? I had heard that Rinehart was coming out with a 2 into 1 for the Challenger? I have always had good results with Bassani 2 into 1 exhausts. Whatever you get i would recommend an exhaust with heat shields. Good luck, and looking forward to your future exhaust updates.
Yup. Just put on the Bassani 2:1 with heat shields LOL. Video coming soon
@@TwoIndians Awesome! Looking forward to the video! Thanks for the reply. And i am guessing a new down load to go with the new 2 into 1?
Brother I hope you can answer this. Why are these motors on the Challenger so loud on the top-end are you having their trouble. And if so how come you haven't spoke about it are you having to same trouble
Which tune performed better with the Indian Cams and intake, RVS or Lloyds? I have the Indian Stage 1 and 2 upgrades and am curious which tune I should get?
I honestly can’t give the edge to either one. To me they were very similar
Change the pipes! Thanks for sharing the price.
I would swap out the exhaust. Seems that’s what’s holding back the cams so to speak.
What seat and backrest are you running?
Keep up the videos!!!
Maybe give Brian with Mad Monkey and ring and review options with a 112 BBK.
That’s a custom seat from Sick Saddles in Lakeland FL. Tell them you the TwoIndians Challenger Seat 😉 yeah I know all about the 112BBK. 😞
Well at this point what’s another 1K it’s going to cost just as much to put the old stuff back in anyway I’m for putting in the new exhaust
Try the 2 into 1 pipes. To bad you couldn’t borrow a set.
Get the pipes, you have already spent the money on the cams and upgrades so just go ahead and finish it off with the pipes!
Thanks for sharing. Thinking about it…
I put a new Corbin seat on my pursuit now I need new bars, what are you using?
What’s up man ! We talked at the concerts
Another day of editing LOL
Ok Brian fellow Challenger rider here.Chin up man love your bike color ! My first Challenger was 20 base Lloyds tune ,Indian air and Sawicki 2into1 shorty exhaust. If you go with the Sawicki exhaust it will be VERY loud.I like loud some dont.
Loud pipes are not in my future.
Go with a 2 into 1. That’s probably the most cost effective and best performing!
Why is the AFR so high?
Obviously, performance is what you're wanting, but I'd never give up the look of dual pipes. I hate the 2-1 look myself.
Strange .. appears my first comment was deleted by YT; I just said it appears you may want to get the Lloydz pipes that correspond to the cam you purchased and “hopefully” you’ll get the 130 torque out of that addition.
You're already in deep. Put the the pipes in
My vote is for the 112 BB kit!
TBH I probably should have done that to begin with but I am tapped out.
Get the Sawicki 2 into One through Lloyds
Get the lloyds exhaust, you already spent the money on his cams. Make an installment video of the exhaust for us diy guys. Then another video on dyno of lloyds exhaust and cams! Do it!
Sold my 22 dark horse. Was done. Then I saw this 24 Elite. I just wanna bust these HD 131s
Not to change the subject but what backrest is that?
LOL, that’s an Indian backrest which was recovered when I had my seat done. Sick Saddles in Lakeland.
Time to be like RidingFish no Substitute for CUBIC INCHES!
Swap the exhaust to a 2-1 and see what the difference is.
Very informative!
I'm not happy with my Lloyd's tune ,cam 2 kit
You’re not the first one to tell me that. I’m putting an exhaust system on it soon so I’ll report back soon.
I found out the best seal at the head is the Harley screaming eagle gasket lot cheaper to
Mine is a 2017 111
Buy the 2 into 1, already committed.
The more aggressive a cam the more it brings up horsepower and not as much on the torque. And they are correct a good 2/1 would make a big difference. Toce has a slipon 2/1 with a really nice bag hanger rack. It uses your stock headers. At I thing $795 it might put a smile back on your face.
As stated the key here is.... 2-1
That’s a tough one Brian. I’d hate to see you throw even more money at it but a new exhaust is probably in your future. Maybe Lloyd will comp you one 🤔
So If you buy a new exhaust you're looking at a minimum of $5k. Is that cost worth 15-20hp? And how often and how long are you going to be in the upper rpm range to enjoy the power? If you were going to get 140-150lb ft of torque I would say Probably worth it because you would feel it every time you twist the throttle especially down low. I appreciate the honesty and was thinking of possibly getting his cam but I highly doubt it now. I hope you eventually get what you were expecting.
You invested almost 4 grand so you might as well add the 2 into one and get the best Bang for your bucks …
When I buy a Pursuit, I'm keeping it FACTORY equipped. Just want it for long distance "cruising." I went through all of that upgrading crap with my 2019 Springfield. Spent a fortune, and honestly I regret it all. Should have just left it all alone.
Yours is not an uncommon sentiment and hindsight is pointing me in the same direction.
Well I know you don’t like a loud exhaust for your bike so you could always switch back to the other cams and sell what you just bought or you could get a different exhaust I’m probably pretty sure you already know all this it just sucks to be in your predicament I hope that you find an avenue of correction that suits you.
Get the pipes!
New pipes
At this point in time I'd definitely go with rhe pipes nothing to lose definitely not conducive to rip apart the engine again.
So sorry that absolutely sucks! Nice bike but how disappointing. Ride Safe!
Change the exhaust 🤦🏾♂️
Facts
Change the pipes and get the power you want
Get the pipe that works best with the system. You went half way and are not satisfied.
It’s all about the entire COMBO. it’s been ridin into the ground in the comments.. but talk to loyd and get what pipe he recommends to make the power it should. 140/140
So i put on a Bassani 2:1. Haven’t dyno’d it yet but I can tell you my butt tells me there was no change in torque. Still anemic. HP did increase on the other hand so some upside but overall disappointed considering the investment. The worst part is He knew I did not like/want loud pipes like a Sawiki but did not discourage me from getting the cams. One of the worst purchase decisions/experiences I’ve ever made. I know some others like yourself have had good luck and I think that’s great but for me 👎 and I’m not alone.
@@TwoIndiansif it makes u feel any better I did a 124 on my road glide and got some bad cam advice
Wanted a solid mid range cam
From my research I said I was interested in either 483 or 482(made for high compression 124/128s)..
went with the 482 bc they said it would come up sooner. Nah shit don’t light up til 3500 or so.
They SHOULDA said u want that 482 cam u NEED a 2-1 and a 64mm intake/TB to really make it sing.
She rips and slaps like a drunk step dad from 4-6k
But I ride with my ole lady and that shit don’t work well for that and I wanna ride 3-5k or so.
Sucks. Spent so
Much money now I got a less than perfect combo.
@@geraldgoodiii6993 totally feel ya
If I were you I would take the bike back to the other dyno.. it looked a tad high but also you were at sea level and Sturgis isn't exactly.. it would give you a more clear picture of your before and after
His bike is limited by the factory primaries and slip-on exhaust. He needs a 2-into-1 exhaust in order to get the full potential of the combo.
it will be a little while before i can get it on another dyno but yes, thats in my plan. theres a local guy here thats run my bikes mutliple times and i know what to expect from it
@UnrulyRider I understand that, but if the dyno he uses, say is juicier than Lloyd'z because of who knows.. then Maybe the gain is better than he thinks.. but I also understand that because of his setup, he may have room for optimizing but this is just for mire apples to apples.. thats all.. I mean I got a discount code for Toce.. LMK
When are we going to find out how the toce did on the 112 kit @Ridingfish🤔🤔🤔
@zacharyedwards327 My bike is getting finished up, when I land in the US I'll go pick it up a couple weeks later!! Ride that SPICY girl home!!! I'll tell you everything then
In your case after spending $3600, it would seem foolish to dump that money down the drain when you can spend another $1500 to get a Lloydz exhaust and retune for it. This will likely put you way above where you were with the stage 2 cams in both Tq and Hp... Then you'll be happy with your bike again. 😎
Except my bike will be loud and I don’t want loud.
@@TwoIndians ... Eww, that's a going to be a problem. You're going to need to open it up to get what you want out of the setup you now have. Like you said, the intake is an unknown factor. If you go back to your stage 2 cams, the power may not return to the Tq levels you had before the Lloydz work.