I love the dialogue between the 1st violin and the cello in the development of the first movement (4:29). What a gorgeous choice to have the cello be the first soloist of the Adagio (10:43), and what a moment when the 1st violin comes in with its solo in Eb Major at 14:20. The trio section at 19:36 is a great shift in mood. Dark and haunting, yet it still feels like an embrace. Like being taken by death.
At 5:01 it almost sounds like the famous part of Binary Sunset (Luke's theme) from Star Wars. It's heard only for a few brief seconds before Haydn continues his modulation. So close, though! Finding stuff like this is one of the things I love about classical music.
The influence that Haydn had on Beethoven is never credited. In fact,Beethoven himself was supposed to have said "I never learned anything from Haydn"--- a false statement if there ever was~! The fact is,many of the devices that Haydn used in his string quartets were adopted by Beethoven.(His first 6 quartets, op 18 are basically a tribute to Haydn, with the exception maybe of the 1st mvt of #4, which is all Beethoven) Here's a few I have noticed: 1)Haydn's use of "The dramatic pause"(Something that very few composers used , and none as often as Haydn) was one that Beethoven completely adopted. Haydn especially loved to do a short statement of his theme at the beginning of a piece/movement and then do a "dramatic pause"and then repeat that theme again---- something that Beethoven does on numerous occasions, especially in his piano sonatas (Op 57,op 78, op 101) 2)The use of false cadences/harmonic surprises (Where he sets you up for a return to the main key but instead moves to a more foreign key.) 3) The use of motifs in his development sections, again, something that Beethoven did to great effect, most famously in the 5th symphony, but in many other pieces too numerous to mention. 4) Haydn was the first classical composer to replace the minuet with the scherzo(Op 33's string quartets have no minuets at all---all scherzos--------tho Haydn did return to the minuet in his later quartets) 5) Haydn's piano music influenced Beethoven a lot as well. If you listen to Haydn's Sonata #49 in E Flat major(hoboken) in the 1st mvt you will see that Beethoven got the idea for his 5th symphony motif from this sonata(See the development) Also, the famous B flat minor section in the 2nd mvt (Used famously in the movie"Interview with a Vampire" known as "Lestat's theme") was definitely an inspiration for Beethoven's Moonlight sonata(the 1st mvt) (That section is also similar to a section in Mozart's C minor Fantasia K396---but Mozart's section is much more agitato, unlike Haydn's and of course Beethovens) Another piece that Beethoven must've loved was Haydn's F minor variations---There are sections in that that Beethoven mined for the Appassionata and his op 10 #2( 2nd mvt)
Some interesting remarks made helpful pointers in a really useful contribution for those beginning their Haydn discovery. There are a few points I might debate such as the origins of the famous ‘Fate’ motif at the start of Beethoven’s 5th symphony as the idea appears elsewhere in Haydn besides in Hob. XVI:49 for example in the first movement of Symphony 28, in the f# minor quartet Opus 50 No 4, and also in the first movement of Mozart’s Piano Concerto No 25 (K503). I have an absolutely original and almost shocking theory about the final section of the f minor Andante con variazioni* (Hob. XVII:6) which you may come across as in the comments on TH-cam attached to one or two performances of the work. I get your point about the b flat minor section of the slow movement of Hob. XVI:49, but rather than Beethoven,** I think the sonorities actually foreshadow Schubert. * The work was headed ‘Sonata’ by Haydn both on the manuscript copy and in his catalogue, this indicating he might have considered it as a first movement of what would have Ben a very long work. The ‘Variations’ title was first used by publishers, though the ‘Andante con variazioni’ best describes the work, and like Haydn’s slightly ironic ‘Un piccolo Divertimento’, being in Italian it is the more authentic title as he labelled almost nothing in German. (Shame on Henle for appropriating the work into German in their edition, with English underneath, and the Italian not appearing on the cover at all). ** There are other passages in Haydn sonatas with left hand triplets and shifting harmonies that are perhaps closer to the ‘Moonlight’ sonata.
These op 20 quartets came out in 1771, when Mozart was 15 in his formative years, and I have to believe Mozart knew these pieces by heart. I say that because so many sections in these quartets have riffs and modulations that Mozart used so frequently. (Op 20 #5's fugato theme was definitely lifted by Mozart for his Kyrie in his requiem)
Haydn’s Opus 20 was composed in 1772 (not 1771), it was one of the most important breakthroughs in the history of western classical music as in effect, this set of six string quartets defined what was to be a string quartet henceforth, and established it as a form into which later composers chose to pour some of their most profound thoughts. 1772 was incidentally an annus mirabilis for Haydn; he also composed the three magnificent Symphonies 45 (‘Farewell’), 46, and 47. Mozart knew most of Haydn’s quartets: there are extant copies of Opus 17 annotated by Mozart, and it was of course Opus 33 that set the challenge for the unprecedented time and trouble Mozart spent on his six uncommissioned quartets dedicated to Haydn: ‘Essi sono, è vero il frutti di una lunga e laboriosa fatica’. Worth noting too that in 1773, Mozart wrote a set of six quartets K168-173 whilst in Vienna; stylistically, it’s certain he knew Haydn’s Opus 9 (c.1769) and Opus 17 (1770/71); we know this as certain movements in the Mozart quartets are quite clearly modelled on Haydn. Whether or not at this time he knew Opus 20 is debatable, though he certainly did later. Beethoven also knew Opus 20 intimately; he copied out the whole of Opus 20 No 1 for study purposes; Beethoven was also clearly familiar with most of the others, up to the very last ones (Opus 77); he was indeed staying at the Eszterhazy palace at Eisenstadt (for counterpoint lessons with Haydn, and as a piano-playing house guest), whilst Haydn was working on the Opus 71/74 set of quartets. Regarding the opening theme of the f minor fugue in the last movement of Haydn’s Opus 20 No 5, the spiky Baroque-style motif was a well-known musical idea; your quite right that Mozart used it as stated, but he probably knew it anyway as it appears in: JS Bach - Well-tempered Clavier Book II, the a minor fugue BWV 889 Handel - Messiah, chorus ‘And with His Stripes’. (Mozart knew both these works well, as he did the Haydn quartet, so had heard the motif treated three different ways by three of the greatest composers whose music he knew). Similarly, the *do-re-fa-mi* motif that opens the finale of Mozart’s ‘Jupiter’ symphony (K551) had been used several times by both Mozart and Haydn, including by Mozart as early as his Symphony 1, along with Symphonies 33, 41, and the Mass K192. Haydn used it - or with slight variant - in Symphonies 3, 11, 13, and 25. Hope that’s useful to yourself, or anyone else passing by.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Already knew all of this you listed above. Some sources say he wrote op 20 in 1771, so you might want to check that .(Maybe they were published in 1772) BTW, whether it was written in 1771 or 1772 makes very little difference to the point i was making, which is that these early Op 20 Haydn quartets(Op 9 and 17 as well) heavily influenced Mozart in his teens.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Many of the devices that Haydn used in his string quartets were adopted by Beethoven. 1)Haydn's use of the dramatic pause(Something that very few composers used , and none as often as Haydn) was one that Beethoven completely adopted. Haydn especially loved to do a short statement of his theme at the beginning of a piece/movement and then do a "dramatic pause"and then repeat that theme again---- something that Beethoven does on numerous occasions, especially in his piano sonatas (Op 57,op 78, op 101) 2)The use of false cadences/harmonic surprises (Where he sets you up for a return to the main key but instead moves to a more foreign key.) 3) The use of motifs in his development sections, again, something that Beethoven did to great effect, most famously in the 5th symphony, but in many other pieces too numerous to mention. 4) Haydn was the first classical composer to replace the minuet with the scherzo(Op 33's string quartets have no minuets at all---all scherzos--------tho Haydn did return to the minuet in his later quartets) 5) Haydn's piano music influenced Beethoven a lot as well. If you listen to Haydn's Sonata #49 in E Flat major(hoboken) in the 1st mvt you will see that Beethoven got the idea for his 5th symphony motif from this sonata(See the development) Also, the famous B flat minor section in the 2nd mvt (Used famously in the movie"Interview with a Vampire" known as "Lestat's theme") was definitely an inspiration for Beethoven's Moonlight sonata(the 1st mvt) (That section is also similar to a section in Mozart's C minor Fantasia K396---but Mozart's section is much more agitato, unlike Haydn's and of course Beethovens) Another piece that Beethoven must've loved was Haydn's F minor variations---There are sections in that that Beethoven mined for the Appassionata and his op 10 #2( 2nd mvt)
@@mrbrianmccarthy Much of what I wrote was to tie together some scattered bits of information for a wider audience and to put Opus 20 into its proper context; also to correct what I believed to be an error in your dating of these seminal quartets. I re-checked the highly respected and reputable Henle-Verlag Urtext edition, and the Preface begins with the following: ‘Joseph Haydn’s String Quartets Opus 20 were composed in 1772 according to the date of the autographs’. 1772 is the universally accepted dating of Opus 20, and I have not come across the earlier dating before (source ?); HC Robbins Landon believes they were certainly performed at concerts for an important visitor to Eszterhaza 13 July 1772 (along with symphonies 46 and 47). You’re right that the date does not make much difference, but it’s useful to be factually disciplined. 1771 was in fact another annus mirabilis in its own right, with works of the stature of Symphonies 42, 44 and probably 43, along with the great c minor piano sonata Hob. XVI:20. Again, I was agreeing with you entirely that Mozart definitely knew and studied Opus 9 and Opus 17, but was just suggesting that Opus 20 as a teenager was a debatable point; I base this simply on the observation that the six Mozart quartets of 1773 (K168-173) show clear knowledge of Haydn’s Opus 9 and 17, but not of the great leap forward of Opus 20.
@@mrbrianmccarthy Another interesting reply; many thanks for troubling to make a number of valuable points, very few of which I would dispute. I would suggest the following - even at risk of them being things you know already. You’re quite right about the foreshadowing of the Beethoven ‘fate’ motif in Haydn’s E flat sonata Hob. XVI:49, but it also appears in the opening movement of the early Symphony 28 (1765), where it’s treatment illustrates another shared compositional technique whereby a small motif is worked intensively in order to create a large scale musical piece from a small fragment. Additionally, the spirit of the fate motif is I think to be found in the timpani solos the Agnus Dei of the Missa in tempore belli. We might also add that it’s better to have an awareness of the first movement of Haydn’s f# minor string quartet Opus 50 No 4 when referencing the fate motif. Regarding the f minor Andante con variazione Hob. XVII:6 I have an original and highly speculative theory. Written in 1793, both Haydn and Beethoven spent much time together at Eisenstadt as previously mentioned. I believe Haydn had Beethoven perform the first version of the work, which ended with the second F major variation, then a short coda. Did Beethoven himself play an extempore large-scale, chromatic, and tempestuous ‘Beethovenian’ coda, something like the final version we have today ? On hearing this, did Haydn himself go away and - as we know from the final version - and append his own large-scale coda (with Beethoven’s improvisation ringing in his ears), and write the most Beethovenian piano music of the 18th century *not* written by Beethoven himself ? Or maybe Haydn wrote the monumental last section first, and it was Beethoven who learned from Haydn ?
The 2nd movement of this quartet is amazing. Sadly the players ruined it by taking it WAY too slow. Speed that mvt up to 1.4-1.5 and you'll hear what the piece is supposed to sound like. I don't understand why so many classical musicians do this in adagios.The only thing I can figure is that they play the tempo at a funeral march tempo just so none of the notes will sound fast. But seriously, You can have fast notes in an adagio, FFS! LOL
The second movement of this quartet is simply breathtaking.
too bad the players played it at about 1/2 to 2/3rds the speed it should have gone. adagio=60-65bpm, not 30bpm. LOL they ruined it.
I love the dialogue between the 1st violin and the cello in the development of the first movement (4:29).
What a gorgeous choice to have the cello be the first soloist of the Adagio (10:43), and what a moment when the 1st violin comes in with its solo in Eb Major at 14:20.
The trio section at 19:36 is a great shift in mood. Dark and haunting, yet it still feels like an embrace. Like being taken by death.
I am glad that someone could point out interesting features of the piece that my ear is not strong enough to hear
What a good in-depth loon at it! I love musical analysis and the way a string quartet can function.
At 5:01 it almost sounds like the famous part of Binary Sunset (Luke's theme) from Star Wars. It's heard only for a few brief seconds before Haydn continues his modulation. So close, though! Finding stuff like this is one of the things I love about classical music.
+TheVerySpecialK I thought I was the only one who ever noticed this! Nice to see I'm not crazy or having experiencing auditory hallucinations!
I always notice stuff like this too :)
#justViolaThings
yea i believe haydn said star wars was his favorite movie.
What a great performance. And a great great quartet too!
Good performance by Quatuor Mosaiques. Thanks for uploading!
The influence that Haydn had on Beethoven is never credited. In fact,Beethoven himself was supposed to have said "I never learned anything from Haydn"--- a false statement if there ever was~! The fact is,many of the devices that Haydn used in his string quartets were adopted by Beethoven.(His first 6 quartets, op 18 are basically a tribute to Haydn, with the exception maybe of the 1st mvt of #4, which is all Beethoven)
Here's a few I have noticed:
1)Haydn's use of "The dramatic pause"(Something that very few composers used , and none as often as Haydn) was one that Beethoven completely adopted. Haydn especially loved to do a short statement of his theme at the beginning of a piece/movement and then do a "dramatic pause"and then repeat that theme again---- something that Beethoven does on numerous occasions, especially in his piano sonatas (Op 57,op 78, op 101)
2)The use of false cadences/harmonic surprises (Where he sets you up for a return to the main key but instead moves to a more foreign key.)
3) The use of motifs in his development sections, again, something that Beethoven did to great effect, most famously in the 5th symphony, but in many other pieces too numerous to mention.
4) Haydn was the first classical composer to replace the minuet with the scherzo(Op 33's string quartets have no minuets at all---all scherzos--------tho Haydn did return to the minuet in his later quartets)
5) Haydn's piano music influenced Beethoven a lot as well.
If you listen to Haydn's Sonata #49 in E Flat major(hoboken) in the 1st mvt you will see that Beethoven got the idea for his 5th symphony motif from this sonata(See the development) Also, the famous B flat minor section in the 2nd mvt (Used famously in the movie"Interview with a Vampire" known as "Lestat's theme") was definitely an inspiration for Beethoven's Moonlight sonata(the 1st mvt)
(That section is also similar to a section in Mozart's C minor Fantasia K396---but Mozart's section is much more agitato, unlike Haydn's and of course Beethovens)
Another piece that Beethoven must've loved was Haydn's F minor variations---There are sections in that that Beethoven mined for the Appassionata and his op 10 #2( 2nd mvt)
Whoa, Very in-depth. I love it! Inspiration is amazing
Some interesting remarks made helpful pointers in a really useful contribution for those beginning their Haydn discovery.
There are a few points I might debate such as the origins of the famous ‘Fate’ motif at the start of Beethoven’s 5th symphony as the idea appears elsewhere in Haydn besides in Hob. XVI:49 for example in the first movement of Symphony 28, in the f# minor quartet Opus 50 No 4, and also in the first movement of Mozart’s Piano Concerto No 25 (K503).
I have an absolutely original and almost shocking theory about the final section of the f minor Andante con variazioni* (Hob. XVII:6) which you may come across as in the comments on TH-cam attached to one or two performances of the work.
I get your point about the b flat minor section of the slow movement of Hob. XVI:49, but rather than Beethoven,** I think the sonorities actually foreshadow Schubert.
* The work was headed ‘Sonata’ by Haydn both on the manuscript copy and in his catalogue, this indicating he might have considered it as a first movement of what would have Ben a very long work.
The ‘Variations’ title was first used by publishers, though the ‘Andante con variazioni’ best describes the work, and like Haydn’s slightly ironic ‘Un piccolo Divertimento’, being in Italian it is the more authentic title as he labelled almost nothing in German.
(Shame on Henle for appropriating the work into German in their edition, with English underneath, and the Italian not appearing on the cover at all).
** There are other passages in Haydn sonatas with left hand triplets and shifting harmonies that are perhaps closer to the ‘Moonlight’ sonata.
Beautiful
Lots of excursions in to minor keys in the second movement. Very serious and melancholic.
These op 20 quartets came out in 1771, when Mozart was 15 in his formative years, and I have to believe Mozart knew these pieces by heart. I say that because so many sections in these quartets have riffs and modulations that Mozart used so frequently. (Op 20 #5's fugato theme was definitely lifted by Mozart for his Kyrie in his requiem)
Haydn’s Opus 20 was composed in 1772 (not 1771), it was one of the most important breakthroughs in the history of western classical music as in effect, this set of six string quartets defined what was to be a string quartet henceforth, and established it as a form into which later composers chose to pour some of their most profound thoughts.
1772 was incidentally an annus mirabilis for Haydn; he also composed the three magnificent Symphonies 45 (‘Farewell’), 46, and 47.
Mozart knew most of Haydn’s quartets: there are extant copies of Opus 17 annotated by Mozart, and it was of course Opus 33 that set the challenge for the unprecedented time and trouble Mozart spent on his six uncommissioned quartets dedicated to Haydn:
‘Essi sono, è vero il frutti di una lunga e laboriosa fatica’.
Worth noting too that in 1773, Mozart wrote a set of six quartets K168-173 whilst in Vienna; stylistically, it’s certain he knew Haydn’s Opus 9 (c.1769) and Opus 17 (1770/71); we know this as certain movements in the Mozart quartets are quite clearly modelled on Haydn.
Whether or not at this time he knew Opus 20 is debatable, though he certainly did later.
Beethoven also knew Opus 20 intimately; he copied out the whole of Opus 20 No 1 for study purposes; Beethoven was also clearly familiar with most of the others, up to the very last ones (Opus 77); he was indeed staying at the Eszterhazy palace at Eisenstadt (for counterpoint lessons with Haydn, and as a piano-playing house guest), whilst Haydn was working on the Opus 71/74 set of quartets.
Regarding the opening theme of the f minor fugue in the last movement of Haydn’s Opus 20 No 5, the spiky Baroque-style motif was a well-known musical idea; your quite right that Mozart used it as stated, but he probably knew it anyway as it appears in:
JS Bach - Well-tempered Clavier Book II, the a minor fugue BWV 889
Handel - Messiah, chorus ‘And with His Stripes’.
(Mozart knew both these works well, as he did the Haydn quartet, so had heard the motif treated three different ways by three of the greatest composers whose music he knew).
Similarly, the *do-re-fa-mi* motif that opens the finale of Mozart’s ‘Jupiter’ symphony (K551) had been used several times by both Mozart and Haydn, including by Mozart as early as his Symphony 1, along with Symphonies 33, 41, and the Mass K192.
Haydn used it - or with slight variant - in Symphonies 3, 11, 13, and 25.
Hope that’s useful to yourself, or anyone else passing by.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Already knew all of this you listed above. Some sources say he wrote op 20 in 1771, so you might want to check that .(Maybe they were published in 1772) BTW, whether it was written in 1771 or 1772 makes very little difference to the point i was making, which is that these early Op 20 Haydn quartets(Op 9 and 17 as well) heavily influenced Mozart in his teens.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Many of the devices that Haydn used in his string quartets were adopted by Beethoven.
1)Haydn's use of the dramatic pause(Something that very few composers used , and none as often as Haydn) was one that Beethoven completely adopted. Haydn especially loved to do a short statement of his theme at the beginning of a piece/movement and then do a "dramatic pause"and then repeat that theme again---- something that Beethoven does on numerous occasions, especially in his piano sonatas (Op 57,op 78, op 101)
2)The use of false cadences/harmonic surprises (Where he sets you up for a return to the main key but instead moves to a more foreign key.)
3) The use of motifs in his development sections, again, something that Beethoven did to great effect, most famously in the 5th symphony, but in many other pieces too numerous to mention.
4) Haydn was the first classical composer to replace the minuet with the scherzo(Op 33's string quartets have no minuets at all---all scherzos--------tho Haydn did return to the minuet in his later quartets)
5) Haydn's piano music influenced Beethoven a lot as well.
If you listen to Haydn's Sonata #49 in E Flat major(hoboken) in the 1st mvt you will see that Beethoven got the idea for his 5th symphony motif from this sonata(See the development) Also, the famous B flat minor section in the 2nd mvt (Used famously in the movie"Interview with a Vampire" known as "Lestat's theme") was definitely an inspiration for Beethoven's Moonlight sonata(the 1st mvt)
(That section is also similar to a section in Mozart's C minor Fantasia K396---but Mozart's section is much more agitato, unlike Haydn's and of course Beethovens)
Another piece that Beethoven must've loved was Haydn's F minor variations---There are sections in that that Beethoven mined for the Appassionata and his op 10 #2( 2nd mvt)
@@mrbrianmccarthy
Much of what I wrote was to tie together some scattered bits of information for a wider audience and to put Opus 20 into its proper context; also to correct what I believed to be an error in your dating of these seminal quartets.
I re-checked the highly respected and reputable Henle-Verlag Urtext edition, and the Preface begins with the following:
‘Joseph Haydn’s String Quartets Opus 20 were composed in 1772 according to the date of the autographs’.
1772 is the universally accepted dating of Opus 20, and I have not come across the earlier dating before (source ?); HC Robbins Landon believes they were certainly performed at concerts for an important visitor to Eszterhaza 13 July 1772 (along with symphonies 46 and 47).
You’re right that the date does not make much difference, but it’s useful to be factually disciplined.
1771 was in fact another annus mirabilis in its own right, with works of the stature of Symphonies 42, 44 and probably 43, along with the great c minor piano sonata Hob. XVI:20.
Again, I was agreeing with you entirely that Mozart definitely knew and studied Opus 9 and Opus 17, but was just suggesting that Opus 20 as a teenager was a debatable point; I base this simply on the observation that the six Mozart quartets of 1773 (K168-173) show clear knowledge of Haydn’s Opus 9 and 17, but not of the great leap forward of Opus 20.
@@mrbrianmccarthy
Another interesting reply; many thanks for troubling to make a number of valuable points, very few of which I would dispute.
I would suggest the following - even at risk of them being things you know already.
You’re quite right about the foreshadowing of the Beethoven ‘fate’ motif in Haydn’s E flat sonata Hob. XVI:49, but it also appears in the opening movement of the early Symphony 28 (1765), where it’s treatment illustrates another shared compositional technique whereby a small motif is worked intensively in order to create a large scale musical piece from a small fragment.
Additionally, the spirit of the fate motif is I think to be found in the timpani solos the Agnus Dei of the Missa in tempore belli.
We might also add that it’s better to have an awareness of the first movement of Haydn’s f# minor string quartet Opus 50 No 4 when referencing the fate motif.
Regarding the f minor Andante con variazione Hob. XVII:6 I have an original and highly speculative theory.
Written in 1793, both Haydn and Beethoven spent much time together at Eisenstadt as previously mentioned.
I believe Haydn had Beethoven perform the first version of the work, which ended with the second F major variation, then a short coda.
Did Beethoven himself play an extempore large-scale, chromatic, and tempestuous ‘Beethovenian’ coda, something like the final version we have today ?
On hearing this, did Haydn himself go away and - as we know from the final version - and append his own large-scale coda (with Beethoven’s improvisation ringing in his ears), and write the most Beethovenian piano music of the 18th century *not* written by Beethoven himself ?
Or maybe Haydn wrote the monumental last section first, and it was Beethoven who learned from Haydn ?
Moderato: 00:00
Adagio: 10:13
Menuetto Allegretto: 17:36
Fuga a 4 soggetti, Allegro: 21:28
This sounds very wonderful, but isn't it supposed to have a dance feel? Correct me if I'm wrong.
This Is actually what Haydn was rebelling against, earlier quartets are more dancable
The minuet mov. is the danceable movement. It is the way in which Haydn preserved the tradition in a purer form beyond its stylistic enrichment.
D lish is
The 2nd movement of this quartet is amazing. Sadly the players ruined it by taking it WAY too slow. Speed that mvt up to 1.4-1.5 and you'll hear what the piece is supposed to sound like. I don't understand why so many classical musicians do this in adagios.The only thing I can figure is that they play the tempo at a funeral march tempo just so none of the notes will sound fast. But seriously, You can have fast notes in an adagio, FFS! LOL
TEMPO A BIT ON THE LAZY SIDE FOR ME.....NEEDS A BIT MORE PEP