Kyudo: the Director's cut
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Welcome to one of the most beautiful and spiritual of Japanese martial arts-Kyudo or Japanese Archery. This is were martial arts and Zen most interestingly intersect. See for yourself why people spend decades trying to "polish the mind".
@chilismuggler What is the use of hitting a target with a bow? Have you ever heard of bow hunting? It requires intense concentration to be able to hit the small vital area of a white tail deer from twenty yards. Bow hunting also requires amazing patience; getting up before dawn, waiting all day and into the evening before possibly seeing a deer at close enough range, and then the additional patience of waiting until the perfect moment when the deer is in the right position before shooting.
Nope. Yamada argues that the forerunner of kyudo, kyujutsu, was a physical exercise done for enjoyment. This, however, changed with Herrigel´s teacher, Awa.
Read the whole article ;-)
If you wanna know more on the topic, I highly recommend Yamada Shoji´s article "The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery". Go google for it.
The articles bags on Herrigel it does not really conduct any kind of symbolic analysis of Kyudo ideas or ritual or discuss their origins. He does however admit that that Kyudo has Zen influence. P.27 I am not so interested in his feeling about Herrigel. He was just grinding some tedious academic axe. Yes, Herrigel romanticized Japan. Yes, Herrigel was strongly influenced by Suzuki and was looking for Zen.
Many Japanese aristocratic activities were influenced by Buddhism. Clearly concepts of "No Mind", the positive value of "hopelessness", eliminating self and ego, the inherent perfection that must be discovered after long and ardous effort (and some luck)and the process of eliminating obstacles in Kyudo are highly likely to come from Buddhism and probably Zen. I am not a scholar on the subject but it does not seem like that far a reach.
Speaking of which, my dad can literally sit motionless for hours on end while suspended 15 feet in the air on a tiny tree stand seat, waiting patiently for a deer to wander within 20 yards of him. Then he has to methodically and silently knock the arrow on the bow string, slowly raise the bow to his ear, draw, and then sometimes wait at full draw for almost a minute until the deer quarters away and exposes its vitals. He's doing the same thing as this Kyudo master, but still hits the target!
Thanks. I could not argue to vigorously because I am not up on the scholarship. But Kyudo clearly has Shinto influence and I suspect more importantly Buddhist. The concept of "no mind" and the "pointlessness" seem to be Buddhist. Herrigel claimed Zen, I don't know enough about the various types of Japanese Buddhism to add or detract from his statement.
I assume you have never seen a shrine in a dojo or seen anyone pray to one? Is your school in Japan? Because I saw it regularly. The arrow has important ideas in both Shinto and Buddhism so I would to strongly disagree with your prosition. BTW ritual motions serve purposes and the Kyudo of Shibata sensei is now aligned with Tibetan Budhhism in America.
There is nothing ritualistic about Kyudo? Are you joking?!!! It is more ritualistic than Catholic High Mass in the Vatican. You not knowing about something hardly proves it doesn't exist. It is not mumbo jumbo. It is Japanese cosmological thought. Getting rid of the "mumbo jumbo" is like being Christian but ignoring the skinny guy on the cross!!!
Yamada argues Kyudo is considered a physical exercise. I kind of doubt people put on formal kimonos to do physical excercise. Kyudo is a form of ritual. A ritual I believe based on Buddhist and Shinto idea. This is why they have shrines in their dojo and say prayers to the shrine. this beyond the token rituals one sees commonly in Karate dojos.
@fightjapanrc Well I certainly don't ascribe to the teachings of Zen Buddhism, but I think I understand it enough to grasp the fact that living Zen through a skill or art requires a certain level of perfection or expertise. You don't see people spilling boiling water all over the table when they perform a Zen tea ceremony?
People have argued that Kyudo is a type of meditation- a way of cleansing the mind. A German scholar claimed Kyudo was connected to Zen, others disagree. A famous Japanese Kyudo sensei made statements that were very similar to Zen and has now moved to the US and is affiliated with Tibetan Buddhism.
I would have to blame more than Herrigel. He's hardly the first or the last to talk about kyudo as a form of meditation designed to achieve "no mind". I am assuming the concept of "no mind" and the idea of eliminating separation are probably connected to Zen or some other related form of Bhuddhism.
I don't think I have ever heard it put in such a beautiful and "well aimed way".
Teaching art to teenagers, practicing archery, and following a "spiritual" path... it is funny how they all seem to use the same principals.
@1942STALKER Nope. My father is a Master Bow Hunting Instructor for the state of New York. People still hunt with a bow and arrow all over America, not to mention plenty of other countries around the world.
@yinyangthang Only odd in that the choice to juxtapose western music with asian imagery is rare, but its narrow minded to believe that only the shakuhachi is suitable for this. Music is music.
@HekiBerlin You read one article on the subject and you are now an expert? God, why did I waste all those years in graduate school if any jackass who reads an article is an instant expert.
Without disrespecting any martial arts, kyudokas deserve respect. Looks to me
that takes too much patience, even more than kendo. Or maybe thats my thought
because i see kendo more dinamic than kyudo?
okay maybe whoever wrote the narration should have stated it as the act of hitting the target is not important AS the art itself. I don't think he means "hitting the target is not important"
@Djemps any one can hit a target with a little bit of practice. thats not the goal here. the goal is to empty the mind and archery is a 'way' to achieve that. thats all.
@Djemps And when we drive a car the zen way is to ignore traffic signs, lane markers and right of way. It really does not matter where the car goes...haha. Just go with the flow and kill the first unsuspecting granny crossing the road or maybe nudge a few cars off a cliff. In zen, it really does not matter whether you stick to your lane or not :) In fact if you have too few accidents they punish you by raising your insurance lol.
@Djemps You are not able or ready to understand what is presented in this video. Your chance is exactly that you obviously cannot accept this fact, thus having the possibility to gather, in time, information and wisdom. In fact, what you don't understand -and you are not even able to realize it yet-, and what you should keep trying to understand, is your own self. Ganbatte kudasai!
One would think that after 50 yrs of practice,one would be able to hit the target.I have been shooting bows for over 33yrs and I have found my own rituals and find myself in a state of becoming one with the arrow at times.Kyudo is pretty to watch and I respect the devotion,but I feel the ancient Samurai,originally mounted archers,would be appalled that these modern practitioners cannot hit their mark.Good shooting form results in good shooting,and I do not see any of this here
@Aenthropi When you put it that way, I can't help but agree. You're completely right about that. However I did some reading about Kyudo and came out with an answer to this: "seisha seichū". It's a principle that means: "correct shooting is correct hitting". If you perfect the form and the mind, you'll shoot well - I guess that's what Kyudo is about, not simply meditation. Unfortunately, the way it was put in the video is prone to misunderstanding...
Thanks for the reply!
@Aenthropi I understand your line of thought, but I must disagree. Gendai Budo has a different approach to "war" than Kobudo. Kyudo (rather than Kyuba-jutsu) is a modern japanese martial art, so it would be too harsh to say it's meant for killing. If you insist that what is shown in this video is not a martial art, you should disregard Judo and Shotokan Karate as martial arts as well - since many practicioners don't use these arts to go to war, but as means of refining their spirit.
See ya!
@fightjapanrc Hmm, your response is obtuse...I could interpret it as a refute of my stated opinion, or as an acknowledged agreement with same. I was simply implying that traditional Japanese music would be much more effective than Western Classical music at conveying the serene, meditative, "essence" of Kyudo. What better instrument than Shakuhachi for that purpose? I think backing the video with Western Classical music is actually cliche in this instance. Otherwise a lovely, informative vid.
@HekiBerlin
Tai Chi is also a martial art yet millions of people practice it every day simply for the physical and mental benefits. Practical Tai Chi can be lethal though. Kyudo is no different. I'm sure that when the Japanese still used the bow as a weapon, Kyudo was not thought of as it is now. Archery can be especially useful for sharpening the mind as it requires much more concentration than many other martial arts.
Kyudo requires a quiet mind and harmonised body for accuracy and for the beauty of the 'ritual'.
Accuracy comes instinctively as in English longbow archery rather than by aiming .
This is achieved through personal discipline and through following consistent form known as Hassetsu which is the Kyudo equivalent of Kihon or Kata.
Many arts that require years of steady dedication to master can be used for meditation and improving oneself.
In Judging Kyudo only 20 % is scored on the target.
There is in this an element of getting the cart before the horse.
Kyudo origins emphasise ceremonial Ogasawara ryu and practical Heki ryu. Kyudo is in the context of Japanese culture using archery tools that evolved within Japan.
The performance follows a breathing pattern similar to meditation breathing but it is not derived from meditative or Zen practice.
The overtly meditative side has been exaggerated since the Meji restoration and with the influence of Herrigel.
Hitting the target "not important"? I assumed when you hit the target, you're actually hitting your ego self. If you miss, then your controlled posture of selflessness wasn't enough. For what use is the posture if its not going to do it's own inherited goal? The goal of hitting the target has to be there for the sake of no goal. If the goal of hitting the target isn't important, then the controlled posture that strives for that goal isn't neither.
Yes, some dojos have a shrine, others don't.
You don't need a shrine to shoot an arrow.
It has nothing to do with kyudo.
It is true that you do not necessarily need a Dan-graduation to be a good archer.
However, what I've seen so far from Zenko leads me to believe that it is a mixture of religious mumbo with a tiny bit of kyudo.
An often found pattern in the budo world.
Water down a budo art and mix it with some asian mysticism and sheep will find lots of sheepish followers, with money.
That's right, there is nothing ritualistic about kyudo.
It is about shooting an arrow with a bow.
Everything else is not necessary.
If you are implying that the movements are ritualistic then again you are wrong.
Every movement has a technical background, starting with the setting of the feet and ending with zanshin.
I've been shooting 10000s of arrows and have never encountered something cosmological.
It's concentration and self-discipline.
The organisation of Shibata is not aligned with the All Nippon Kyudo Federation.
What they are doing is not accepted as official kyudo.
If a motion has a purpose it cannot be ritualistic, although it may have a meaning to someone.
That is not the case with kyudo, every movement has a special practical purpose.
The spititual aspect was there before, but the zen-kyodo connection was made up by Herrigel (and indeed readily accepted by the Japanese). The guy didn´t know any Japanese and was in the country looking for zen. So it´s no wonder that he misunderstood one or the other thing...
So you see enlightenment as something trainable and not omni-present? It's just an inaccurate reduction of the human mind about the nature of the human mind; and can mean so many different things in so many different contexts..
There is no false zen unless you define it as such.
Observation is zen.
Wow 0_0, the traditional kyudo (archery). the bow made from bamboo without stabilizer and dot sight. but now many new generation for archery. with bow made from carbon (recurve and compound) with using stabilizer and dot sight for make each shoot very accurate ^_^ with max range 90m in turnament
Whenever I hear someone talking about Zen or spirituality in context with some budo art, my alarm bells go off.
Most of these people misunderstand real mastery with some kind of quasi-religion.
Meditating is still better than just sitting around doing nothing.
@GameSteph LOL!! He obviously didn't study at the Dojo featured in THIS film! ... Deadliest Warrior... Thanks for the laugh Steph!
probably a costume drawn from older times where in war this war can argubly help either shot faster with out the need to take another arrow from the quiver or maybe u can use it when someone get close to the archer this arrow will go for him.
I don't know why there's so much emphasis on "spirituality" in budo.
It seems to me these comments mostly come from those who do not practice these arts.
Kyudo needs concentration and self-discipline, but moreso a lot of training and plain muscle-work.
I don't really get what you are trying to say.
The ANKF is not a religious group, they are teaching archery.
If some people follow their personal beliefs like Shinto or Buddhism, that's fine, but has nothing to with kyudo.
@bullmeecham Why don't you get a girlfriend if you need attention. You can have pointless arguments with her. Good luck
They wouldn't use these techniques in battle, would they? You need to be fast and accurate the win battles, so I assume this would be just a way to pratice and achive that mental discipline.
It is true that Shintoism uses bow and arrow for some rituals of cleansing and so, but that has nothing to do with kyudo.
That's shinto.
Sumo wrestling uses a bow too, got nothing to do with kyudo either.
@NagoyaJoe2002 I know that not a single person in this video hit the target at the other end of the archery range.
@Djemps you've obviously never tried to fire a Japanese longbow. It's an incredibly difficult weapon to master, there are no cams and cables to do the work for you.
If you are ire, you are high on ganja and preferably listening to reggae music with your loved ones in the commune of nature, the temple of peace and love.
@Djemps I realize that you are not "in the know" about these things. But your statement is very naive. The product of a very "westernized" mind set.
Very odd ti=o have Western classical music in the background throughout the narration--shakuhachi would have been more appropriate and informative, yes?
@Djemps are you kidding me? did you see that samurai guy on the deadliest warrior he fucking shot both the targets eyes out with this art.
@boehmtj A Zen master doesn't 'give a shit'? It seems that you know less about Zen than even I do.
how much punishment can a blind kyudo archer receives for hitting the target?
@fightjapanrc Yes you are. I started Kyudo a few weeks ago, and yes it is very very very orthodox. More so than judo.
@fightjapanrc anyone doing something he loves doing finds "enlightment". no need to tell others what to do, mate ;)
My Sensei is looking to build a new Aikido dojo and wants to include a Kyudo dojo as well. That would be amazing.
I'd really like to see any of these guys actually hit the target more than once every hundred years or so...
Agreed. Still, the article probably gives you much more valuable and authentic information than Herrigel does.
@earthlyinfodotcom True Zen? So you have attained enlightment....?
Please choose something you feel is better. Then we could compare.
What's the point of getting a target when you are not even aiming?
japanese instruments would have been nice, but better i dunno
@fightjapanrc so you can judge if someone has attained enlightment ?
2:37 is that another arrow he is holding in his right hand?
Zen and kyudo have not much in common.
Blame Herrigel.
たしか、だいぶ昔に全日本選手権で優勝したほどのお方だそうです。
この年齢になっても弓が引けるって素晴らしいことですよね。
Maybe you should not try so hard....
@Djemps I guess Zen is not for you!
it's hard to hit small targets with a yew bow
Yes...That reply sounds much better.
the low bow ist to long ...........
don't go bow hunting o god......
@Djemps ....... does that even still exist i thought we all use guns by now !?
My apologies.
Very good!
an arrow to the knee.
Kyudo is sooo bad ass
In the show above there was a very large shinto shrine occuplying one entire side of the room yet you claim there is no relationship to Kyudo and Shinto? Is your dojo in Japan? Secondly whether a branch of Kyudo has the bureaucratic seal of approval from ankf has little to do with its essence.
斉藤先生ではありませんか？
Very interesting!!
0:56 Fujishima sensei?
In Japan "spirituality" tends to come from either Shinto sources or Buddhist one's. This seems very much the latter (although Kyudo is used in Shinto rituals).
@yinyangthang Today I appear to be surrounded by a love of orthodoxy. Any departure from cliche seems to raise ire.
@sebthrace This sounds about rite. While the the ceremony was Zen the shrines were shinto. Good points.
yea u have to turn into super saiyan 4.
Hehe zen is enlightenment? silly person, zen has nothing to do with enlightenment. Nothing is enlightenment its a complete and total release of all suffering and of all desires and thoughts, therefor zen can never be enlightenment :P. Even after years perhaps a lifetime of practice a person has to learn how to let go of letting go in order to achieve enlightenment!
This archery stuff is cool but i think i would rather try Fung Fu or Tai Chi before i tried this.
I've been a western archer for over 40 years. Injury and surgery made me lay down the bow about 8 years ago. I have taken it up again, using Kyudo philosophy, and have been doing well. Zen is very much a part of my archery, and is perfectly cited in this video with the line: "The ultimate goal of Kyudo is to polish the mind." I wish there was a Kyudo sensei within a hundred miles of my home. Every archer should see this video.
@PQVidya I respect your observations.
In Kyudo the entire process beginning with attitude is important, but not dependent on muscular strength of the practitioner. Physical position of the body through all stages of the kata are required. The draw is not so much from the middle as it is a well executed, balanced set of motions that situate the kyudoka.
With correct posture and technique, one can come to draw in excess of 33 kg (66 lbs), as I have seen. That is with little effort.
Thanks for this info. It has certainly elevated the debate. Thanks
It is the western mind that have to receive information about eastern mindset. Perhaps it is more likely to be open to it if, during the presentation, the receiver find something familiar.
I don't understand. Awa Kenzo was once capable of hyappatsu hyakuchu, hitting the mark almost 100 times out of 100. Now kyudo teaches students that hitting the target doesn't matter? Can't these people perfect their every movement, release all thought, etc., and still obtain hyappatsu hyakuchu!? (IE 2:24 - what's up with that?)
"All conditioned phenomena
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, or shadows;
Like drops of dew, or flashes of lightning;
Thusly should they be contemplated. "
I wonder if there any groups in Japan that practice the mounted form of Kyudo.
If you so hate "mumbo jumbo" why don't you buy a regular bow and shoot it in your back yard at a tree stump wearing shorts and t-shirt. That would be truly just shooting an arrow....
Cool
I strongly oppose this view on kyudo, although many people seem to share your view.
I use a simple keikogi for 99% of my training and only put on a kimono for fun or show.
There's nothing ritualistic about it.
I don't care about Buddhism or Shintoism either and I do not see them in the simple act of archery either.
Remove all the mumbo-jumbo and what is left is just shooting an arrow.
And that's how it should be.
As much as I agree with your statement Earthlyinfodotcom, you are contradicting yourself when you say one way isn't necessarily better than the other and the same time claim others are doing it wrong when pointing out wrongness..
And this is only me pointing out what I feel is wrong with that statement again, so there is the competitional loop of human dynamics oh-so difficult to zoom out from.. :P
not the best archery what a shame.
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whats beautiful is actually hitting the target...
It's very beautiful to look at, and certainly there's a few things I can take away from to enhance my recurve form, but we train to hit targets. We train for speed and accuracy, this seems to emphasize an intangible that I can't wrap my mind around. I'm lost in the mechanics of kyudo though, is that a thumb draw?