Cram, Coe and Ovett - all of them, when they were absolutely on top form were unstoppable, but of course even the very best athletes can't run like this every single time. But when it happens, its glorious to watch.
Deano, I probably know more than you considering I actually ran at an Olympic Games, a World Champs a Commonwealth Games and a World Cup over 800m - all in the last decade too. I also ran in Europe professionally for 8 years over 800m and I have raced ALL of the recent best including Kipketer, Borza, Bungei... The difference between you and I is that I have no bias to any one athlete as you do with Coe. I love Coe, Cram, Ovett, Kipketer - and can appreciate all of their strengths and weaknesses
And the issue is not who is better - because Coe was the WR holder so it's pretty much a moot point. But it's not as clear cut as that. Cram NEVER focussed on the 800m with his training like Coe and Cram has a pretty impressive hit rate with the few 800m races he contested (including beating Cruz). The issue is giving credit to Cram on this day in Edinburgh and saying hey, this dude just might not have been beaten on this day by anyone.
If you really think a guy who practically solo ran a 1:41.7 couldn't run a negative split 1:43, then you know little of the event. Coe was not in a race where he needed to negative split in a 1:43. I agree that Cram's run here was fantastic and one of the best Championship performances at the distance ever. But you have to accept that his competition was weak in comparison to the vast majority of Championship fields.
Sigh... I hate it when people say "if so and so had been here he would have won". Dont people realise the champ is whoever is there on the day? Wow what if Hitcham El Guerrouj had been in the final of the 1500m.. or superman!?
You say you know more than me, but obviously fail to realise that Coe was competing at these Games, but was forced to withdraw by the English team's doctor after the heats with a chest infection. You brought up Coe by saying he wasn't a great tactician, and I was merely replying that you are wrong. Yes, Coe lost some big 800 races that he shouldn't have lost; sometimes due to illness (82 European) but he always won a medal until the 1990 Commonwealths.
Cram was in top form. Only a vintage Coe from 1981 could have given Cram any trouble. Cram could have run low 1.42 this day easy. It was like a time trial for him Poetry in motion. Cram in 1985 and 1986 at his peak in the right race could have been a sub 1.42 800m runner. His long speed endurance was amazing, considering his lack of pure basic speed. Cram would have minced Cruz in 1984 with this form over 800m and Coe in 1984 over 1500m. Sadly a month later his form suddenly dropped off 10-15%. I’m a Coe, Ovett and cram fan, think on their day they was unbeatable. Watch ovett at the 1977 World Cup amazing turn of speed.
Cram was capable of a sub 1.42 here if had pace and not on a cold windy track. He was in top shape this day. In my opinion cram was a clean runner to hold the mile world record. For me his sustained power running in 85/86 was incredible.
There is maybe only two championship performances which rival this in terms of dominance and brilliance and it’s Kipketer in Athens and Rudisha in London. And that’s the list. This is maybe the most underrated 800m run of all time.
@KingLiopleurodon If we're talking about that day in 86, then Coe would have had his hands full. It may have been too early for him as he was aiming to reach a peak in Stuttgart. You have to remember Cram was 25 here and probably in better form than even 85. Coe was almost 30 & slightly past his best. But vintage Coe from 81 would beat Cram over 800m here whatever the pace was. It's a moot point anyway, for if Coe had been in the race it would have been a different race altogether.
We all know that Coe would have had a hard time winning against a peak form Cram here, despite Deano's customary claims. The pacing wasn't optimal for Coe, with Cram at 51.8/51.4. This was much too slow for Coe to use his speed endurance to best effort, yet still too fast for him to use his superior basic sprint speed. McKean was made to look very second rate by Cram. 2nd fastest 800 in the world in 1986 and if you've ever run at Meadowbank you'd know how tough this is.
IF Coe had been fit and in this race his best bet to win would have been to have followed Elliot, and then when Cram started his run along the back straight just make sure he didn't let Cram past as he's done before. Then with 100 to go hit the burners and we all know that ( if Coe is 100%) no-one in history could stay with him. The 2nd fastest with 100 to go is Ovett and even he couldn't cope with the pure speed of Coe. IF Coa had followed Cram he might have struggled UNLESS he was 100% in which case he would have won however Cram raced!👍
Cram contested 3 major finals. He won a gold here in the weakest Championship of the 4 main ones. He won a bronze in the Europeans, and didn't even make it to the final of the 88 Olympics, so his tactical record isn't great. I have also said on countless occasions how great Cram was in this race. I consider him to be in the top 3 all-time for middle distances.
We don't need you "cramming" up the board with Seb Coe talk when he wasn't even competing in the freaking games here - let alone this race! Go find the 1980 Moscow 1500m and beat off on your keyboard, but this youtube clip is all about the greatness of Steve Cram and what HE did on THIS day back in 86.
Cram was certainly unstoppable at this time in his career. It is unfortunate for him that due to injury that he wasn't fit enough in 1988 because he would have probably have won Olympic 1500 Gold, Peter Rono won that with 1.35.... something. Peter Elliot got Olympic Silver in that race. Also, Elliot's 800 metres Silver in the World Champs in Rome in 1987 was clocked at 1.43... something, just a bit slower that Cram's 1.43....in Edinburgh a year earlier, an interesting comparison, just one year apart roughly from each other. Cram was certainly a more talented athlete than Elliot with Word Champs 1500 Gold in 1983 being his top achievement, and several World Records, but Elliot's achievements went under the radar, 2 elite Silver medals, a World Indoor Record at 1500 in 1990 and a Commonwealth Games Gold Medal in 1990, superb for a man who had to try harder for success.
And by the way, what does a weak field have to do with the quality of this performance? I would hardly call it weak personally - it did have Peter Elliot and Tom McKean in it - both athletes would would run 1.42 and 1.43 for the distance. Coe is great in Stuttgart (after about 5-6 tries over championship 800m) but at least he is challenged and is flat to the boards. Yes he runs the typical lane 2 in the final 200m, but Cram does the same from basically 300-600m in Edinburgh.
He was challenged because it was a slightly slower tactical race & he was up against Cram (in the best form of his life according to his coach) & a far better Mckean than the one who'd run in Edinburgh. In the Europeans they had to run 3 consecutive days in 1:45-1:46 heats & semis. In Edinburgh Cram had a heat in 1:51, a semi in 1:48.7, then 3 days off before the final. Completely different set of circumstances, & if you're the inter. athlete you profess to be, then you'll know that too well.
It looked easy because it was an easy win over a mediocre field in an easy Champs, where the final was 3 days after the heats. Cram always ran best with even splits and the race unfolded perfectly for him. Most championships require a lot more jockeying for positions and quick changes in pace. This was more like a paced circuit run. If you look at the 800 in Moscow, where Coe ran a dreadful tactical race, he covered every curve in lane 2, meaning he ran 12m further.
Put this into the equation and his lap times were the equivalent of 54.7 & 49.7, in what was a 1:44.4 performance. That's a negative split of 5 secs. Likewise, Cruz's 1:43.00 LA victory with a last 200 of 25.2 in his 4th race in 4 days was superior to Cram's run here. In Stuttgart Coe again ran wide. Had he covered just 800m rather than 8m more his laps would have been 52.6 & 51.0 for a 1:43.6. That's more of a negative split than Cram's 51.7, 51.5 here.
The Commonwealths were hardly a proper Championship anyway, with the heat (1:51) & semi (1:48) being run 3 days before. It was practically a 1 off grand prix race. Coe was always a better 2 lap runner than Cram and his 24.7 last 200 in Stuttgart, running wide on the last curve in the rain, is every bit as impressive as Cram's 25.0 last 200m run here. And the Europeans were of a much higher standard.
Yes, Cram was magnificent that day, but then the opposition was pretty mediocre and it made him look even better. He ran the text book race for him, even splits (51.7, 51.5) & was under little stress as he knew he was head & shoulders above the rest. It would have been a very different race had Coe been in it, as was shown in Stuttgart.
Don't you believe it! Cram was an 800 - 1500 guy from 1982 onwards. He ran the fastest 800m in the World in 1982, 1983 & 1986, and was the 3rd fastest in 1985. He doubled up in the 86 Commonwealths, 86 Europeans & 88 Olympics. He preferred the 1500m, as Coe preferred the 800, but don't give me that "never"trained for it rubbish. Just like Coe never trained solely for the 800; he doubled up in all champs apart from 82 Europeans, when he was coming back from injury.
Well they were only 1:44 guys that season. Elliott was a cart horse who would never stand an earthly against a top form Cram, while Mckean had always said early that season, that the Europeans a month later were his priority. He barely broke 1:44 later in his career, & wasn't a factor if the pace picked up to 1:43. Cram runs slightly wide around the 3rd bend after bell, but stays within lane 1. You dont lose ground running wide on the back straight, only on bends, where lane 2 is 3.5m further!
Lol! Why was Edinburgh a shitty track?? It was a very new one. Yes, Cram was magnificent that day, but then the opposition was pretty mediocre & it made him look even better. He ran the text book race for him, even splits (51.7, 51.5) & was under little stress as he knew he was head & shoulders above the rest. It would have been a very different race had Coe been in it, as was shown in Stuttgart.
Don't make me laugh! Coe was diagnosed and told not to run by the team doctor. He'd solo ran a 2:14 1k in v windy conditions 12 days before Edinburgh & had nothing to worry about Cram. Coe lost the Euro 1500 because he gave Cram a 4m head start at the bell and then had to run the penultimate bend in lanes 2& 3. He would have covered c. 405m over the last lap, meaning his 51.1 was more likely worth 50.4, 0.5 faster than Cram.
LOL! Get over yourself. You brought Coe up, I simply argued that I thought you were wrong. If you can't argue your points successfully then I guess it makes sense to start getting personal. Congratulations and have a nice day!
So what! If that logic applies, then all the best footballers would be the best managers and be the best football journalists. Just because a soldier fights in a war doesn't make him an expert on every aspect of strategy.
There was 2 days between the semi's and final in Atlanta not 3, and they were run in 1:43.79, 1:43.99 & 1:45.16. Not quite the same proposition as 3 days rest for Cram after running 1:48 in his semi. The comparison is laughable.
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That was impressive running, never seen someone in an 800m final with top athletes go from the back of the field to the front so effortlessly.
Cram, Coe and Ovett - all of them, when they were absolutely on top form were unstoppable, but of course even the very best athletes can't run like this every single time. But when it happens, its glorious to watch.
All three .the last time this time seb Coe not Steve ovett missing out .on commonwealth medal in 1986
Nice one....blah blah blah
Stunning.
Cram went at 300m and again at about 150m to go.
His pace was relentless. His track presence ....
Superb athlete.
Steve Cram made that look ridiculously easy against very good opposition.
Steve Cram was a monster!
Cram striding out and making even world talent look average. Tom Mckean outclassed as he so often was on such occasions.
What a nonsense comment
Deano, I probably know more than you considering I actually ran at an Olympic Games, a World Champs a Commonwealth Games and a World Cup over 800m - all in the last decade too. I also ran in Europe professionally for 8 years over 800m and I have raced ALL of the recent best including Kipketer, Borza, Bungei... The difference between you and I is that I have no bias to any one athlete as you do with Coe. I love Coe, Cram, Ovett, Kipketer - and can appreciate all of their strengths and weaknesses
And the issue is not who is better - because Coe was the WR holder so it's pretty much a moot point. But it's not as clear cut as that. Cram NEVER focussed on the 800m with his training like Coe and Cram has a pretty impressive hit rate with the few 800m races he contested (including beating Cruz). The issue is giving credit to Cram on this day in Edinburgh and saying hey, this dude just might not have been beaten on this day by anyone.
If you really think a guy who practically solo ran a 1:41.7 couldn't run a negative split 1:43, then you know little of the event. Coe was not in a race where he needed to negative split in a 1:43. I agree that Cram's run here was fantastic and one of the best Championship performances at the distance ever. But you have to accept that his competition was weak in comparison to the vast majority of Championship fields.
Sigh... I hate it when people say "if so and so had been here he would have won". Dont people realise the champ is whoever is there on the day? Wow what if Hitcham El Guerrouj had been in the final of the 1500m.. or superman!?
I think we can all safely say that on his day Crammy was The Shit
Oh.. Run you Great...
Thanks you...
Very-very good Video..
You say you know more than me, but obviously fail to realise that Coe was competing at these Games, but was forced to withdraw by the English team's doctor after the heats with a chest infection. You brought up Coe by saying he wasn't a great tactician, and I was merely replying that you are wrong. Yes, Coe lost some big 800 races that he shouldn't have lost; sometimes due to illness (82 European) but he always won a medal until the 1990 Commonwealths.
I think Cram peaked here - I don't think anybody would have beaten him in the world in this race. He wasn't quite as sharp a month later in Stuttgart
What a time, that could win world and olympics tiltes even now!
Cram was in top form. Only a vintage Coe from 1981 could have given Cram any trouble. Cram could have run low 1.42 this day easy. It was like a time trial for him Poetry
in motion. Cram in 1985 and 1986 at his peak in the right race could have been a sub 1.42 800m runner. His long speed endurance was amazing, considering his lack of pure basic speed. Cram would have minced Cruz in 1984 with this form over 800m and Coe in 1984 over 1500m. Sadly a month later his form suddenly dropped off 10-15%. I’m a Coe, Ovett and cram fan, think on their day they was unbeatable. Watch ovett at the 1977 World Cup amazing turn of speed.
hes my 2nd cousin!
L.A Renee cram
great commentator too
@@APBCTechnique I KNOW he seems SUPER FAST!! :D
Cram was capable of a sub 1.42 here if had pace and not on a cold windy track. He was in top shape this day.
In my opinion cram was a clean runner to hold the mile world record. For me his sustained power running in 85/86 was incredible.
There is maybe only two championship performances which rival this in terms of dominance and brilliance and it’s Kipketer in Athens and Rudisha in London. And that’s the list. This is maybe the most underrated 800m run of all time.
Paul Forbes, the second Scottish runner in this race, is still competing and setting records in the over 65 age group.
Elliott had a very distinctive running form.
Best Athlete never to have won an Olympic Gold Medal.
Cram and Colin Jackson.
@@speedcoach6805 I thought Colin did...??
@ericgeorge Colin won a bronze in ‘88 and silver in ‘92 (I think it was ‘92). Two world titles though.
@@speedcoach6805 Yes but not the one that really mattered.
Aussie Ron Clarke never did, either.
@KingLiopleurodon If we're talking about that day in 86, then Coe would have had his hands full. It may have been too early for him as he was aiming to reach a peak in Stuttgart. You have to remember Cram was 25 here and probably in better form than even 85. Coe was almost 30 & slightly past his best. But vintage Coe from 81 would beat Cram over 800m here whatever the pace was. It's a moot point anyway, for if Coe had been in the race it would have been a different race altogether.
deano27671 cram was awesome in this race but cram was at his peak in 85 wen he broke 3 world records within a month
Crammy destroyed that field looked like he was jogging and holding himself back at about 450 metres............majestic.....
Very true - had he been running flat out he would have probably run around 1:42.50, astonishing considering the conditions were pretty awful that day.
We all know that Coe would have had a hard time winning against a peak form Cram here, despite Deano's customary claims. The pacing wasn't optimal for Coe, with Cram at 51.8/51.4. This was much too slow for Coe to use his speed endurance to best effort, yet still too fast for him to use his superior basic sprint speed. McKean was made to look very second rate by Cram. 2nd fastest 800 in the world in 1986 and if you've ever run at Meadowbank you'd know how tough this is.
The fastest 800m that year was also by Cram, 1.43.19 at the end of the season in Rieti.
IF Coe had been fit and in this race his best bet to win would have been to have followed Elliot, and then when Cram started his run along the back straight just make sure he didn't let Cram past as he's done before. Then with 100 to go hit the burners and we all know that ( if Coe is 100%) no-one in history could stay with him. The 2nd fastest with 100 to go is Ovett and even he couldn't cope with the pure speed of Coe. IF Coa had followed Cram he might have struggled UNLESS he was 100% in which case he would have won however Cram raced!👍
I think this was Cram’s only 800 meter title, which is hard to believe watching him here.
Cram contested 3 major finals. He won a gold here in the weakest Championship of the 4 main ones. He won a bronze in the Europeans, and didn't even make it to the final of the 88 Olympics, so his tactical record isn't great. I have also said on countless occasions how great Cram was in this race. I consider him to be in the top 3 all-time for middle distances.
deano27671 top 3 all time gotta disagree no way is he above Coe ovett el guerruge morceli
He's talking about the 800m only. @@davidshannon2860
25 seconds for the last 200 metres! Way faster than David Rushida during his current World Record!
We don't need you "cramming" up the board with Seb Coe talk when he wasn't even competing in the freaking games here - let alone this race!
Go find the 1980 Moscow 1500m and beat off on your keyboard, but this youtube clip is all about the greatness of Steve Cram and what HE did on THIS day back in 86.
Coe was at these Games but did not start this 800m final.
Cram was certainly unstoppable at this time in his career. It is unfortunate for him that due to injury that he wasn't fit enough in 1988 because he would have probably have won Olympic 1500 Gold, Peter Rono won that with 1.35.... something. Peter Elliot got Olympic Silver in that race. Also, Elliot's 800 metres Silver in the World Champs in Rome in 1987 was clocked at 1.43... something, just a bit slower that Cram's 1.43....in Edinburgh a year earlier, an interesting comparison, just one year apart roughly from each other. Cram was certainly a more talented athlete than Elliot with Word Champs 1500 Gold in 1983 being his top achievement, and several World Records, but Elliot's achievements went under the radar, 2 elite Silver medals, a World Indoor Record at 1500 in 1990 and a Commonwealth Games Gold Medal in 1990, superb for a man who had to try harder for success.
And by the way, what does a weak field have to do with the quality of this performance? I would hardly call it weak personally - it did have Peter Elliot and Tom McKean in it - both athletes would would run 1.42 and 1.43 for the distance. Coe is great in Stuttgart (after about 5-6 tries over championship 800m) but at least he is challenged and is flat to the boards. Yes he runs the typical lane 2 in the final 200m, but Cram does the same from basically 300-600m in Edinburgh.
smooveXXX wen did Elliott and Mckean ever run 142.0 for 800m
No one beats Cram on this day. NO ONE IN HISTORY.
smooveXXX Coe ovett rudisha kipkeita ?
hes my 2nd cousin
He was challenged because it was a slightly slower tactical race & he was up against Cram (in the best form of his life according to his coach) & a far better Mckean than the one who'd run in Edinburgh. In the Europeans they had to run 3 consecutive days in 1:45-1:46 heats & semis. In Edinburgh Cram had a heat in 1:51, a semi in 1:48.7, then 3 days off before the final. Completely different set of circumstances, & if you're the inter. athlete you profess to be, then you'll know that too well.
@YungahScarpz David Coleman
He probably ran 2 to 2.5m further than 800, meaning his time for exactly 800 would have been c. 1:42.9.
It looked easy because it was an easy win over a mediocre field in an easy Champs, where the final was 3 days after the heats. Cram always ran best with even splits and the race unfolded perfectly for him. Most championships require a lot more jockeying for positions and quick changes in pace. This was more like a paced circuit run. If you look at the 800 in Moscow, where Coe ran a dreadful tactical race, he covered every curve in lane 2, meaning he ran 12m further.
Put this into the equation and his lap times were the equivalent of 54.7 & 49.7, in what was a 1:44.4 performance. That's a negative split of 5 secs. Likewise, Cruz's 1:43.00 LA victory with a last 200 of 25.2 in his 4th race in 4 days was superior to Cram's run here. In Stuttgart Coe again ran wide. Had he covered just 800m rather than 8m more his laps would have been 52.6 & 51.0 for a 1:43.6. That's more of a negative split than Cram's 51.7, 51.5 here.
whats this commentators name?
ianopolot David Coleman
On this day cram would have challenged the 800m WR in the right conditions
Cram a better teachical Runner than Coe
The Commonwealths were hardly a proper Championship anyway, with the heat (1:51) & semi (1:48) being run 3 days before. It was practically a 1 off grand prix race. Coe was always a better 2 lap runner than Cram and his 24.7 last 200 in Stuttgart, running wide on the last curve in the rain, is every bit as impressive as Cram's 25.0 last 200m run here. And the Europeans were of a much higher standard.
Yes, Cram was magnificent that day, but then the opposition was pretty mediocre and it made him look even better. He ran the text book race for him, even splits (51.7, 51.5) & was under little stress as he knew he was head & shoulders above the rest. It would have been a very different race had Coe been in it, as was shown in Stuttgart.
I'm so glad you like spending time looking back at all my comments. I'm in education and you clearly need some.
;0)
Don't you believe it! Cram was an 800 - 1500 guy from 1982 onwards. He ran the fastest 800m in the World in 1982, 1983 & 1986, and was the 3rd fastest in 1985. He doubled up in the 86 Commonwealths, 86 Europeans & 88 Olympics. He preferred the 1500m, as Coe preferred the 800, but don't give me that "never"trained for it rubbish. Just like Coe never trained solely for the 800; he doubled up in all champs apart from 82 Europeans, when he was coming back from injury.
Well they were only 1:44 guys that season. Elliott was a cart horse who would never stand an earthly against a top form Cram, while Mckean had always said early that season, that the Europeans a month later were his priority. He barely broke 1:44 later in his career, & wasn't a factor if the pace picked up to 1:43. Cram runs slightly wide around the 3rd bend after bell, but stays within lane 1. You dont lose ground running wide on the back straight, only on bends, where lane 2 is 3.5m further!
1.43 and not even blowing hard
Lol! Why was Edinburgh a shitty track?? It was a very new one.
Yes, Cram was magnificent that day, but then the opposition was pretty mediocre & it made him look even better. He ran the text book race for him, even splits (51.7, 51.5) & was under little stress as he knew he was head & shoulders above the rest. It would have been a very different race had Coe been in it, as was shown in Stuttgart.
Don't make me laugh! Coe was diagnosed and told not to run by the team doctor. He'd solo ran a 2:14 1k in v windy conditions 12 days before Edinburgh & had nothing to worry about Cram. Coe lost the Euro 1500 because he gave Cram a 4m head start at the bell and then had to run the penultimate bend in lanes 2& 3. He would have covered c. 405m over the last lap, meaning his 51.1 was more likely worth 50.4, 0.5 faster than Cram.
We'll never know if Cram could have been beaten on the day, but to insinuate Coe did nothing approaching this is risible and uninformed.
LOL! Get over yourself. You brought Coe up, I simply argued that I thought you were wrong. If you can't argue your points successfully then I guess it makes sense to start getting personal. Congratulations and have a nice day!
So what! If that logic applies, then all the best footballers would be the best managers and be the best football journalists. Just because a soldier fights in a war doesn't make him an expert on every aspect of strategy.
There was 2 days between the semi's and final in Atlanta not 3, and they were run in 1:43.79, 1:43.99 & 1:45.16. Not quite the same proposition as 3 days rest for Cram after running 1:48 in his semi. The comparison is laughable.