Consciousness and Self: A Vedantic Perspective | Dr. Tony Nader with Rupert Spira
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- In this episode, Dr. Nader and Rupert Spira sit down for an in-depth discussion on the nature of the ultimate reality. They explore the teachings of Advaita Vedanta, and that the nature of the ultimate reality is Consciousness.
Rupert Spira is a philosopher, an international teacher of the Advaita Vedanta direct path method, and author of several books, including "Being Aware of Being Aware”, “You Are the Happiness You Seek”, and "The Nature of Consciousness: Essays on the Unity of Mind and Matter". He is based in Oxford, UK and is also a notable ceramic artist.
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1:03:40 Have you ever in your wildest dreams seen Vasishtha and Veda Vyasa share their thoughts in this Yuga, at the present time??? This is it!!!
What a celebration of knowledge!! I can’t help but smile from the beginning thru the end.. I enjoyed this conversation immensely. Two souls from the same ancient tradition of knowledge expressing their views of Vedanta in their own language. Both from the lineage of Guru Dev - one thru Maharishi. The other thru Shantanand Saraswati, both of whom were guru bai’s under Guru Dev
Yessss
Two legends talking supreme knowledge available to humans on this planet
This is delightful, I love how much fun they’re having talking about this stuff! Hearing the different ways they describe the same concept is so helpful for understanding!
Art and Science having a conversation. It was so colourful and I learnt so much more! Wonderfully enjoyable, thankyou 🙂
It is amazing how they are using words to point toward "THAT" which is "I AM". For my appreciation/comprehension of the conversation, I thank Maharishi Mahesh Yogi for making the TM Technique and Science Of Being And Art Of Living available to me over the last 50 years. Jai Guru Dev
Me, too: I started September, 1970. Started teaching NSR in 2006. Have 3000 happy clients and still going strong.
A wonderful conversation --- very deep, meaningful, loving, and insightful!
Aham Brahmasmi. Aham (I am). Aham Veda/Ved'o ham (I am the Veda). Aham Sharir (I am the body), Aham Vishvam (I am the Universe), Aham Brahmasmi (I am TOTALITY). As for Pure Consciousness moving within itself without movement, it's like the Unified Field that exists below the Planck Scale where there ARE no particles, only the tendency for that field to vibrate, there being no warp and woof of spacetime. That tendency seems to "bubble up", attracting more & more energy from the field until it spontaneously breaks into spacetime, becoming a "wavicle" that may or may not be measured. I believe that simultaneously, an identical, virtual particle is attached to it, acting as the MANIFEST particle's source, containing all the INFORMATION the "particle" needs to traverse a path in spacetime, kind-of guiding the REAL wavicle in a 4D quantum level. Spacetime is CREATED to handle diversity, but the information for a string to vibrate in eight dimensions while existing in ten - which are most likely attached to the virtual particle in the Unified Field at two points (10-2=8). The process of manifestation of "matter" (Consciousness that takes on "solid" properties) from a field of potential that appears to be pure NOTHINGNESS, is the same for the movement of Pure Consciousness within itself as it creates one-to-one correspondences WITH itself, transitioning from Pure Consciousness to Pure Consciousness as it is conscious of itself spontaneously in accord with its own nature to "See" or "know" all possibilities of itself. I believe the Unified Field and the Atma are one and the same, the model of Consciousness that Maharishi and Dr Tony Nader (along with John Hagelin as well) formed from the perspectives of a particular branch of string/superstring theory and the Veda being very "friendly" to both fields with each other.
The problem with speculating what happens or exists below the Planck limit is that it's pseudoscience: there is no way to verify any such statement, so they are all in the realm of belief and imagination, rather than certainty or evidence. Unfortunately, Dr. Hagelin's symmetry research has not held up very well, not fulfilling its hope of leading to a grand unified theory of forces.
41:10 I think it looks like it births in ignorance because of the limitations of our evolutionary mind because most of the children of living beings reflects pure consciousness nature.
Beautiful conversation, thank you
So grateful for this knowledge given by the enlightened scientists. We are truly blessed to know this channel to always learn more from ❤
I loved this meeting. So much happiness, so much agreement about such an important philosophy of life! I've been practicing Transcendental Meditation™ for many years, and teaching an alternative to it called Natural Stress Relief™. But also I have followed Rupert and other nonduality teachers, attending their retreats and reading their books. I just don't understand how few people have discovered the incredible compatibility of TM (which is based in yoga dhyana) with nonduality (which is based in advaita vedanta). My students and many others have discovered that lasting peace and happiness is easy to achieve, when such effective paths are learned and practiced. Tony Nader is the head of the "Government of World Peace" set up by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi before his death in 2008. He is a neuroscientist, and Lebanese, with a PhD from MIT.
Rishi, Devata, Chandas - three in one unity; the process of the knower being delivered within/to the object, chandas - which is also the 'hiding' aspect of an object (thought and emotions, as well, btw, as objects). Maharishi also related that within ultimate UNITY - Brahman (inner and outer), WE, who are unified have the option of experiencing consciousness - (pure) BEING, and also BECOMING. Being and becoming, Being and becoming, Being and becoming . . . and yet UNITY is NOT LOST. We may explore, we may experience ANY of these three as we choose: knower, known, and process: Rishi, chandas, and, Devata. Thank you, Dr. Nader . . . thank you Dr. Spira (let us all bestow the 'doctorate' here, Sir.)
I am brought to tears of relief when I hear Rubert’s explanation of illusion!! I’m so thankful to have a better understanding of this teaching. I too have really struggled, actually as long as I can remember, with what is Reality! At times even doubting my sanity 😢
No one should ever have to doubt their own sanity on a spiritual path--we have some very effective teachers, but we need even more.
Yes, it’s like seeing a hologram, it is a ‘real’ hologram. But an ‘illusion’ of a person or thing. Our nature is ‘holographic’ in the sense that it is light and sound but illusory in the sense that the body or object will go out of existence at some point but the Being will not, just like a hologram with the fractal patterns returning the light from the display. Our ‘illusion’ is the perception of everything being separate and perceived with however many filters of thought placed over top of it, when you strip those layers of perception off, reality is what reality is and the illusion of the thinking mind recognizes it all as One consciousness Being, no matter opinions etc. yeah?
@@13hills Yes, all true, with just one very minor correction, if you don't mind: holograms don't have fractal (self-similar) patterns. While it is true that a piece of a hologram contains a low-resolution view of the whole hologram, the actual pattern is a complex wavefront, which does not have a defined fractional dimension.
@@david203 thanks for the insight 👏🏼
I'm not sure it's only about semantics but more a slightly different understanding. My impression is that Rupert has a more Advaita Vedanta vision and Tony Nader more a Kashmiri Shaivism vision. So, they agree, but not really completely. Do you agree?
I think they agree fully, but they do come from different backgrounds, as you said. Rupert gave up the practice of transcending, probably (I believe) as a result of poor teaching that didn't make his practice effortless and effective. He struggled with it. Different paths, same goal.
A very delightful conversation😇🙏 Now it would be interesting to learn what they have to say about how the spiritual seeker can actually get established in the "knowing" of his/ her true nature and thus express life as a human being within knowing the unbounded field of consciousness/ awareness. Tony made some remarks on that regarding way the mantra is used in TM. Rupert to me seems to have a different idea of this.
And maybe they could elaborate on what impact the "knowing" of one's true nature has on the expression of individual and social life. Wherein exactly lies the relevance of this "knowing" or of being aware of (every) one's true Self?
I ask this because many so-called and intelligent Neo-Advaitins who have intellectually perfectly understood and can themselves perfectly explain what Rupert and Tony elaborated on and teach the same, seem to me to be stuck in intellectual understanding and often even go so far as telling their followers that nothing needs to be practiced ( f.i. yoga, mantra meditation etc.), it can all be totally grasped by self-inquiry and that's it. Rupert, too, seems to be having a different idea from Tony regarding mantra meditation.
Yes, they come from different traditions to a common spiritual goal. Not all mantra meditations are the same! TM is completely effortless and without obstacles, unlike what Rupert learned. It's also very different from the most popular form of meditation, which is breathing awareness. One interesting experience I've had is seeing how people who have learned breathing awareness have so much more stress to release than those who have never practiced meditation, before learning transcending.
Consciousness pays for manifestation...with its own peace.....this is EPIC Dr Spira..!
Kindly repeat that in ENGLISH, Miss.☝️
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
A romantic take from our dear artist.
@@integralsun, Good Girl! 👌
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
Dr. Nader, can you please make video with Swami Sarvapriyananda about advaita and Vedas? He is great wise master and dear and humble man. It would be great listen you both. ❤🙏❤🙏
On another point, Consciousness CAN and DOES KNOW ITSELF *AS* itself through Transcendence, where the individual's mind experiences a "complete settling" (Yogas Citta Vrtti Nirodah), bringing the individual to the STATE of Yoga which is Chetan Turiya, "the fourth", a.k.a. Samadhi which IS that Pure Consciousness that abides in its own nature, being Conscious only of itself. So, THIS (my) point of Consciousness does indeed transcend my (s)elf to expand into the (S)elf (from ahamkar to Atma...). Does Rupert transcend, does he experience Union through Dhyana, traversing from point to infinity? That is the basis, the whole POINT of Yoga, to achieve "the fourth", Chetan Turiya from where he might experience co-existence of three relative states of Consciousness with "the fourth" in CC?
Transcending (dhyana in yoga) is needed only to drop the mind and its stresses/conditioning/ignorance, resulting in samadhi (self-absorption in bliss). The goal is not this temporary experience, but the fifth state of consciousness, which is permanent and clear experience of the the fourth state during waking, dreaming, and sleeping. From such a strong platform, reaching the seventh state (unity consciousness) takes little additional time.
It’s good too see Dr. Nader reaching out to other experts such as Mr. Spira. The more inclusive the better!
used to get kicked out of the tm movement if you visited another teacher
On the subject of illusion, you might like "Class on “Brahma Satyam Jagat Satyam” [Brahman is real, the world is real] - by Swami Swami Medhanandaji Maharaj. June 17th, 2023, on TH-cam.
How can one dream when wake inside.
Consciousness is fundamental
Generator Organizer Destroyer
Of ⭕️ = I = ♾
Dimensions
Consciousness self realization is Soul aka Singularity Of Universal Light
Consciousness inner intention is Mind aka Energy
Consciousness outer manifestation is Body aka Matter
Consciousness appears as content to experience itself, content disappears to realize that it is consciousness itself.
Brahma (Body) + Vishnu (Mind) + Ishwara (Soul) =
Swami SriDattaDev SatChitAnanda
Wonderful
´A highest knowledge ´
Amazing
The dewdrop and the ocean are both made of seawater, thus both are "oceanic". However, as Tony points out, the dewdrop is NOT the ocean while at the same time it is also oceanic. The two individuals, two egos are NOT illusory, just as the dewdrop and the ocean are "real-ly" oceanic, neither being an illusion, but actually both being "bits of consciousness" How can the dewdrop be an illusion if it is also oceanic, just as the full ocean is? Both are expressions of the same Consciousness, thus both are real although it is the "hiding factor" of Consciousness as it expresses its own "harmonics" as it vibrates as "A", then "I", "U", "Ri", "Lri" "E", "O", "Am" and so forth - with "I' hiding "U" from the nature of the primary "harmonic" "A", which creates the seeming "subject-object split" where totality and multiplicity appear to diverge, but not actually doing so because the parts NEVER lose wholeness, each "divergence" being part of the same whole all the time. It is only this seeming separation between subject and object that allows for spacetime to make an appearance to make multiplicity possible in the so-called "objective" world, where Rishi, Devata and Chandas are never lost in reality (when a bit of Consciousness is real at each position in Samhita"... Just MHO...
Kashmir shaivism ( swami Lakahman joo) details it all, but Rupert makes it accessibility to all in its simplicity.
Why doesn't he provide proof for the vedas from which his ideas are derived? Since what he has to say contradicts universal human experience the only authority they have is derived from those texts
Their smiles are so pure and cute! Pray God makes more people like them.
Very delightful talk. Jai Gurudev 🌹
wow, what a great conversation and journey
Self is an illusory hostage of the mind borrowed from consciousness.
Namaskar Aum Om Amén from Colombia
Tony's is so very humble in his knowledge while Rupert seems to be on his way to usurping God's position as the chief designer of the universe ! Rupert may appear to be endowed with a great expressive ability at words to those who are new to Advaita Vedanta and not aware of the depth of the theory but those who have studied Advaita in detail will know how poor and inadequate his technical vocabulary actually is when it comes to Advaita. He has no access to terms like Chidabhaas, Kootasth, etc. to convey the correct knowledge.
He just does not have the adequate terms in his vocabulary to convey the details and nuances of Advaita Vedanta knowledge. In fact he cannot even distinguish between Consciousness and Awareness which is the most important and fundamental distinction in Advaita philosophy. He uses the two as synonyms. With that fundamental error everything that he says is fundamentally flawed. He thinks he knows but actually is himself caught up in his own illusory faulty theories. He now is just busy making money out of his smooth and polished speech. Nothing else.
Tony Nader on the other hand is more rooted in the traditional knowledge of the Rishis and so safe from the pitfalls that await ones like Rupert Spira.
The One - brought forth - the many - and we - the many - may return - individually - to the Beloved.
It is our privilege - to find the right knowledge for this - in any way - it comes to us.
May the wisdom required - come to us - from any place - in the universe. (Vedic prayer)
May we fully experience - that mergence - in the heart of the Beloved - after the dissolution of that knowledge - dissolved in the love - needed - for this supreme task.
Even love goes - eventually. Simply no need. Everything gone - only His Presence -
Beloved remains - walking His Path (Kabir, methinks) Fare thee well.
I love you man
Bless you.
Pratibimbha theory or mirroring theory
Wonderful to see such bright lights.
Great Discussion... ♾️💕
Thank you both Philosophers
Cool
As Rupert points out, through the process of thinking and perceiving (I would add the process of sensing and possibly many other processes beyond the human perspective) universal consciousness creates the illusion of the myriad things, worlds and perceptions.
That is the creative aspect of consciousness and this creative aspect is limitless and not in time.
Great conversation.
Hi, Magdi. Thank you for your Zoom meetings, where you teach nonduality very well!
@@david203 Thank you David. I love to be with friends who share the same interest and love of truth.
@@MagdiNonDuality I think I'll come back to your meetings again, thanks. Your time with Francis Lucille (if I recall correctly) trained you well. Love, David.
amazing!
It was really fun and enjoyable to watch and it was like I was watching a video of myself and my friend talking about same topic from different perspective 🤣 I feel myself more like Rupert and my friend is Tony.
The discussion about the role of the individual consciousness in the experience of Unity is, in my opinion, very important these days . I don't think, it is about semantics.
The point of view of Rupert lays more into the pantheistic view: there is only the One. The individual is only "apparent", not real. From the point of view of Nader , there is unity, one being, one consciousness, but at the same time he doesn't deny the existence of the individual. This is more panentheistic. This latter view is similar to that of Aurobindo or Almaas in modern times.
This is not a futile discussion. It has many practical implications: the role of ethics, the dignity of the human being, and a more loving than intelectual approach in which there is a beautiful interaction between the One and the many. The individual can experiment itself as the One and other times as an offspring of the One, loving it and being loved by it.
My humble opinion is...we need to strengthen and standardized the term of consciousness and its related analogous and explanation for 2 reason...the next or young generation can take in solid understanding and able to transcend the deeper meaning and 2. We have enemies from monotheistic groups that will wait for our lack of understanding and definition where we should not give room.
Wonderful conversation, enjoyable by all aspects, by the level of surface of mind and by experience from deeper level of consciousness, listening about un phantomable Reality. Thank you for this opportunity to enjoy presenting visions and experiences from other "little" perspectives. Lilal's play with our words 🙏🤗✨💗
I added some comments - which were just thoughts arising during the conversation - so a bit stop start and clunky :)
That is called Icha Shakti
Mr. Rupert Spira, cats, dogs etc all experience the same conciousness & unity conciousness also perceives the same perception through them as through you & me!
Outstanding, one of the best presentations eeevvvveeerrr! I would add one small but important point to Dr. Tony's mention of the Rig Veda The foremost Shiva mantra of the Rig Veda is available for all. Access "Mahamritunjaya mantra - Sacred Sounds Choir". (shown is Anandamayema). Also (somewhere) is a photo of Mahaarishi Mahesh Yogi standing right next to her. Enjoy.
Satchidananda!
About the explanation of why the One creates the world is nice to listen to the different traditions. In Hinduism is out of joy and creativity ( lila) In Christianity is out of love and the desire to share. In Sufism is to know itself and to know creation. I like to think that is for all those reasons and more.
Rather deep and vast and beautiful. Thank you. Fare thee well.
Whatever is useful and practical? Perspective. Individuality for individuals - so we don't bump into each other! while at the same infinite time and timelessness are universal so both as one. I am one and I am many. Dwandwa Yoga - the many are united as one whilst ever retaining separate identities. Being, becoming, life, living. Consciousness knowing itself is not an experience in the relative - the manifestation . But there are effects. Transcending . Pure consciousness is itself. Thoughts arising in first 2/3! ... Fulfillment
Illusion and screen analogy is nestled in the material paradigm? Screen 😁
Final third - half hour. We cannot see (as in eyes) ourselves as individuals - we can only see parts. Directly, or in a reflection such as a mirror, a drawing, a photo. We can feel more and more as we evolve? Flat, stirring, activity. Unbounded within and without the same. Prior is a space time concept? Experience is also consciousness.. you are this AND that. I am this and that. true nature is via Transcending. No thoughts of not being this that and the other. To the point of transcending is very fast! Commenting and commentary is part of personal development :) silence and dynamism - pure silence and pure dynamism. I think the screen is a red herring. Forget the analogy and transcend. Yes. Individual mind needs to transcend, because that is the route to pure knowledge, total knowledge. The concept of 'one' can be confusing. the word one comprises three letters. Samhita of Rishi Devata and Chhandas. Maharishi described the Absolute number as 1 surrounded by a circle. The circle is a line curved round to meet itself, and a line is a series of dots and gaps. We can think a sound without making a sound. Both have a vibrational quality. Unity concepts can only exist when there is something to unite. Very enjoyable. Differences in language can shed more light. Thank you for sharing 😁 thoughts
Really amazing , presentation of ideas about Consciousness which is Whole in its nature . Unity could be thought of in respect of individual perspective .Does Consciousness do any action since it has no purpose ? Thanks.
No, consciousness itself does not do any action. Neither do humans, as scentific experiments have shown: when humans act, they "own" this action as a conscious "doing:" about 500 milliseconds later. Humans living in the seventh state of consciousness live free of any effort.
Great pleasure! Thank you!
Jay Guru Dev!
👍🇩🇪
😄
Mr. Rupert Spira at his best I have ever heard. 👌
Conciousness had to divide itself the way it has to maintain equilibrium thru out all that there is otherwise everything would collapse into singularity. this is why there is the big bang...conciousness doubted itself as it came to be polarizing the truth within itself causing itself to split. How do Iknow this..I remember contemplating my own Birth and the fear of the unknown and having doubt about making the journey from the whomb into the world in which I had obviously overcome....this for me is part of the process in my own coming to be as I have up to this very moment ...so not only do I have the ability to be aware that I am as the result of what i inherit but I must as well have to manifest the truth as it translates itself from one perspective to another hence the bipolar nature within as I am too made up of trillions of cells reflecting the nature of that thru which I came.... the Universe or better yet Multiverse since each of us is Universal within ourselves...
I remember, some time after birth, making a conscious decision to stay in this world, enduring suffering, for the sake of having fun as a separate person.
it is more like kashmir-shavism flavour of non-duality.
Super Amazing !
Dynamics of consciousness is divine mathematics of panch tatvas and Time & Space, balancing to Zero as Tony said. Something of this can be seen by Jyotish. Jyotish can tell the difference between a learned person or ordinary person or criminal or any other jeeva. Jyotish is divine mathematics of consciousness.
The pancha tattvas are earth, air, fire, water, and akasha. Hardly scientific, just a metaphor for matter and space.
@@david203astral form of things that you see is hardly scientific
@@redpillmatrix3046 What does "astral form" mean? The form of stars? Neither Spira nor Nader used this term. Please explain your point. Also, they were not discussing science, but philosophy. I think you must be misunderstanding something I said.
Wow. The dream team.
They should do more together...
Is there a transcription of this talk?
Click on the title of the video and you will see the transcript
@@lorenascott1053 I don't find it
Advaita to Dvaita!
Sorry, I don't see the dvaita philosophy presented here at all.
This is food for the heart. Thank you both!
I got it Mr. Rupert, "consciousness doesn't know itself." I that's why say to all that the unbounded ocean of consciousness is dumb! From the localised finite mind it knows itself but as itself it doesn't know 🤣🤣😂😂😂 that's why it has no purpose. Only a finite mind has purpose. Consciousness through it's spontaneous dynamics gets localised to have the finite mind to have a purpose.
Consciousness knows ONLY itself. ("knows" is not the usual definition) This is why pure consciousness is also pure peace and happiness.
Wonderful 👍🙏🫶 Thank you very much
Indeed, not beyond but prior .. the Self Absolute lies prior to the Six Senses…
Trying to use the six senses to approach the Self is truly pointless.. senseless.. 🙏🫶🌺
Not so, TM uses the sense of hearing to gradually (over a few seconds or minutes) to transcend the field of thinking and sensing, to reach pure awareness deep within, when the mantra disappears and awareness is all that is left. I have practiced this for many years and taught it to 3000 people, so I can assure you that it works very well.