Yes I live in Australia and was a Registered Nurse was involved in fire safety during my career, including once being the designated fire officer in a small rural hospital and as you know there are a large amount of plastics in the hospital environment including not only the medical equipment, the bedding etc but also the building's materials. We were always trained to avoid the gases, smoke, and molten materials given off by the combustion of the equipment (that were made from some sometimes specialised plastics) - notwithstanding the other materials that the buildings may contain. It was clear back then that the toxic elements of a fire were extremely dangerous and it was certainly scary stuff, and now it seems that the fire fighters of today now have the unenviable task of putting out EV fires and I commend every one of you that you do so to protect the individuals who may be exposed to the effects of these awful fires.
I will commend anyone who can extinguish a thermal runaway. I will commend you, as a fellow Australian, for your work as a nurse. As a seafarer I can assure you "A fire at sea can ruin your whole day"
Kudos to you for what you are doing. I understand this burn study is about collecting the data on the burn, but there was no discussion about collecting and testing the runoff liquids from extinguishing the fire. The smoke is definitely a very critical component of data collection and analysis, but just think how much damage water runoff could have on the environment if it’s loaded with cobalt, etc. not just to fish and animals that eat fish, including humans, but also the water table and aquifers that store water for human uses. Again, thank you for what you are doing. You may already be saving firefighters lives by raising awareness of just how devastating it can be for firefighters who get exposure to lithium battery fires, etc.
Thanks for your time on this video. Anyone who's gone through fire investigation training and seen the effects of foam plastics when they burn, i.e: "Rhode Island Nightclub Fire"
I’m not an engineer but am knowledgeable about motor vehicles. I am willing to bet the fire coming from a Li-ion battery vehicle fire will burn much hotter that the fire originating from an ICE vehicle fire. In Australia there is a lot of concern about EV fires as there have already been a number of high profile fires here and abroad. The concern is mainly car park fires in multi story buildings and thermal runaway after a collision. It will be a very interesting study. Best of luck.
re: "I am willing to bet the fire coming from a Li-ion battery vehicle fire will burn much hotter that the fire originating from an ICE vehicle fire." you bet correctly, and the Capt'n knows this as he's spoken to this several times in previous videos. the principle is really not much different than using an Oxy-Acetylene torch, wherein if you combine Fuel and O2 directly at the point of combustion (since O2 is what's liberated in the reaction during Thermal Runaway) instead of relying "solely" on Atmospheric Air for combustion, one will indeed create MORE heat by virtue of being able to burning MORE fuel... also ref: Air/Fuel Ratio in ICE engine tuning and the Chemical Science of STOICHIOMETRY as grahamhobbs (and Shaw) eludes to elsewhere here in the comments.
@@phillyphil1513 I considered a hybrid for a while. I have studied the subject a lot. I have decided to hang on to my 2015 Audi A6 Biturbo diesel. There is nothing wrong with it after 150,000km. It is economical, powerful and reliable and is aging well. No rush to change. Pioneers get arrows in their arses.
Plus all that hydrogen that lithium batteries release during thermal runaway can make an EV or enclosed parking garage go boom if the right fuel air mix is reached.
EVs may not burn "as frequently" now but you do need to keep in mind that the average ICEV is 12 years old while most EVs are practically still fresh out of the factory since ~80% of them were sold over the last four or five years. The frequency of EV fires may be much higher 12-15 years down the line where the fleet average age may pass the 10 years mark. Also, a good chunk of ICEV fires are of electrical origin and there is a lot more electrical stuff going on in an EV. UL is just now looking at how EVs burn down? They could save a ton of money by taking a look at everything the Swiss firefighter researchers have already done. They already went through the effectiveness of classic and new approaches. Their conclusion? A cold-cutting water jet lance is the best way of putting out an EV battery fire.
re: "keep in mind that the average ICEV is 12 years old while most EVs are practically still fresh out of the factory since ~80% of them were sold over the last four or five years..." yup they're FOB (Fresh Off the Boat) or even "still in the Boat" in the context of the Felicity Ace sitting beneath 8,000ft of water off the Azores, and the context of the BURNED OUT HULK that was the Fremantle Highway, likely now having the last parts of it's keel cut for scrap in the Netherlands (Eemshaven) as we speak.
Other thing is total amount of vehicles favors ICE in the world. If there is a high amount of one product and say 15% of them burns, 15% of 1000 is a lot more fires than 15% of 20 for an example.
@@CMDRSweeper When people talk about the frequency of EV vs HEV vs PHEV vs ICEV fires, it is usually normalized (ex.: incidents per 100k vehicles) to cancel out differences in fleet sizes between vehicle types.
Love your work and coverage on this very important topic. This is important research that is important globally as countries like my own (Australia) will never have the funds or see this as a priority to invest in this type of research. 👏👏👏
@@StacheDTraining That's good to hear. I hope it's also discoverable and the car makers are made aware of it. I'd imagine crash tests have led to things like crumple zones, etc. And would hope we get some of the same things here.
Capt Durham don't know if i mentioned this before but (if you haven't already) you should ALSO connect up with the BIC (Battery Innovation Center) in Indiana, they are nearby to Crane Naval Surface Warfare Center (which is the only "land locked" Navy Base so that should tell you something) and they do Fire testing work for both OEM's and the Military. Ben Wrightsman and Rodney Kidd both Fire Fighters and worked the massive Morris Li-Ion Battery Warehouse Fire near Chicago back in 2021. spoke with those guys on my annual trip to PRI Indiana back in Dec 2022... in addition, another you may want to connect up with is Eric Huhn down at UNC Charlotte he's a Fire Fighter and Battery Safety Engineer that's formed an organization called EVRSAFE. he held their first conference back in October at Charlotte Motor Speeday, but it was short notice so i didn't attend. however i DID luck out and ended up meeting and speaking with him during my yearly Indiana PRI trip in Dec 2023. for reference we're all approaching the issue of Automotive Lithium Battery Fires from the next tier up of Motorsports/Racing, and Trackside Safety.
will be interesting if their data will be like the australian data I saw. They told what the black and white smoke (which is not condensation) was, how much volume a battery produce in these gases (600-5000 liter / kwh if I remember correctly) and all these explosve gases. edit about temperatures I think he said 1100 degrees. I found the clip th-cam.com/video/AIXTP-TgPEw/w-d-xo.html
Car fire is a car fire BEV or ICE. Difference is a Battery Fire under a self sustained circumstance!! The increased toxicity and generally "leave it burn" method (self sustaining) of a battery pack is what is so dangerous!!
By deliberately burning,vi i imagine you won't nessecerily get the jets of flame, as you would with a battery fault fire, May be possible to instigate a battery fault to get genuine data
The guy commented that he hadn't yet got the flame's shooting out, he didn't comment on how they set the vehicles on fire, though says starting the fire in the battery, burning from the outside could produce a different fire to one starting "within" the battery by one or more cell failures, I imagine he must be aware of this, assuming that is the case, also very early days with investigation, I appreciate
Plastics don't make cars lighter. A MK1 Cortina was 800kg on the road, the equivalent Mondeo was nearly 2000kg. The weight gain is all down to extra structure to meet safety regs, extra comfort gear like AC electric windows power seats and an awful lot of plastic everywhere.
5:31 - Mr. McGuire: "I just wanna say one word to you, just one word, are you listening...?" Ben: "Yes Sir..." Mr. McGuire: "PLASTICS...!!!" Ben: "How do you mean...?" Mr. McGuire: "There's a great future in Plastics, think about it..." - Dustin Hoffman/The Graduate, circa 1967.
Having Govt and Manufacturers involved in any way with this research means the most important measuring equipment is a Bullsh*t Meter given they have skin in the game. They should only speak when spoken to and then have the B S meter on the most sensitive setting
@@venator5 Cant post direct link on YT, but there are two. You will have to Google... PMC5577247 Toxic fluoride gas emissions from lithium-ion battery fires and “Toxic Gases from Fire in Electric Vehicles”, O. Willstrand
Great to see someone on here NOT taken in by this politically sanitised 🐂💩. Saying that there's no data on EV fires is a huge joke - that or a bare faced lie. Battery chemistry will give you the vast amount of information that's needed.
and yet they're still pushing electric vehicles as if there are no consequences. I sometimes wonder what's really going on behind the scenes out there.
Not only are EV fires massively more toxic that ICE car fires, but they cost much more to extinguish. Have you ever seen all of the extra firefighting equipment and water and special blankets needed to put these fires out?
It seems like science for the sake of science. I honesty can't see what this information is going to give us that we don't already have. OK, specific numbers but so what? We already know that all the figures are high above safety levels. Here in Australia, a year plus ago, we had two firefighters become disabled for life, because some of the smoke contacted their skin. Not from plastic as you seen to indicate but from the boron in the EV battery. Also, I didn't hear any comments regarding the speed of the fire from the first indication to ignition. How long does someone driving down the road have, from first indication until the battery ignites? What I have seen is horrifying. We have been lucky. To date, we have not seen parents who need to exit the vehicle to unstrap children, baby modules or the elderly or disabled in the back of the vehicle. EV cars and batteries need to be pulled off the roads until a high level of safety for owners and the public can be assured. Safety has to come first.
Go back and have another look at the report from the UFUA 2023 report on the disabled Victorian Firefighters. Then come back here and show me where it refers to boron. This time actually read it
@@theairstig9164 No I won't do your leg work. I won't be someone's teacher. You have the information. Go to it or not. I have been through this too many times to play games with you.
The two firefighters suffered from *cobalt* poisoning, not boron as the report shows. Not all lithium ion battery chemistries include cobalt (e.g. LFP). That's why science is important...
Yes I live in Australia and was a Registered Nurse was involved in fire safety during my career, including once being the designated fire officer in a small rural hospital and as you know there are a large amount of plastics in the hospital environment including not only the medical equipment, the bedding etc but also the building's materials. We were always trained to avoid the gases, smoke, and molten materials given off by the combustion of the equipment (that were made from some sometimes specialised plastics) - notwithstanding the other materials that the buildings may contain. It was clear back then that the toxic elements of a fire were extremely dangerous and it was certainly scary stuff, and now it seems that the fire fighters of today now have the unenviable task of putting out EV fires and I commend every one of you that you do so to protect the individuals who may be exposed to the effects of these awful fires.
Me too
I will commend anyone who can extinguish a thermal runaway. I will commend you, as a fellow Australian, for your work as a nurse. As a seafarer I can assure you "A fire at sea can ruin your whole day"
Kudos to you for what you are doing. I understand this burn study is about collecting the data on the burn, but there was no discussion about collecting and testing the runoff liquids from extinguishing the fire. The smoke is definitely a very critical component of data collection and analysis, but just think how much damage water runoff could have on the environment if it’s loaded with cobalt, etc. not just to fish and animals that eat fish, including humans, but also the water table and aquifers that store water for human uses.
Again, thank you for what you are doing. You may already be saving firefighters lives by raising awareness of just how devastating it can be for firefighters who get exposure to lithium battery fires, etc.
It wasn't discussed, but the water contamination work is being done. See my other video from December for more details.
Thanks for your time on this video. Anyone who's gone through fire investigation training and seen the effects of foam plastics when they burn, i.e: "Rhode Island Nightclub Fire"
I’m not an engineer but am knowledgeable about motor vehicles. I am willing to bet the fire coming from a Li-ion battery vehicle fire will burn much hotter that the fire originating from an ICE vehicle fire.
In Australia there is a lot of concern about EV fires as there have already been a number of high profile fires here and abroad.
The concern is mainly car park fires in multi story buildings and thermal runaway after a collision.
It will be a very interesting study. Best of luck.
re: "I am willing to bet the fire coming from a Li-ion battery vehicle fire will burn much hotter that the fire originating from an ICE vehicle fire." you bet correctly, and the Capt'n knows this as he's spoken to this several times in previous videos. the principle is really not much different than using an Oxy-Acetylene torch, wherein if you combine Fuel and O2 directly at the point of combustion (since O2 is what's liberated in the reaction during Thermal Runaway) instead of relying "solely" on Atmospheric Air for combustion, one will indeed create MORE heat by virtue of being able to burning MORE fuel...
also ref: Air/Fuel Ratio in ICE engine tuning and the Chemical Science of STOICHIOMETRY as grahamhobbs (and Shaw) eludes to elsewhere here in the comments.
@@phillyphil1513 I considered a hybrid for a while. I have studied the subject a lot. I have decided to hang on to my 2015 Audi A6 Biturbo diesel. There is nothing wrong with it after 150,000km. It is economical, powerful and reliable and is aging well.
No rush to change.
Pioneers get arrows in their arses.
Plus all that hydrogen that lithium batteries release during thermal runaway can make an EV or enclosed parking garage go boom if the right fuel air mix is reached.
EVs may not burn "as frequently" now but you do need to keep in mind that the average ICEV is 12 years old while most EVs are practically still fresh out of the factory since ~80% of them were sold over the last four or five years. The frequency of EV fires may be much higher 12-15 years down the line where the fleet average age may pass the 10 years mark. Also, a good chunk of ICEV fires are of electrical origin and there is a lot more electrical stuff going on in an EV.
UL is just now looking at how EVs burn down? They could save a ton of money by taking a look at everything the Swiss firefighter researchers have already done. They already went through the effectiveness of classic and new approaches. Their conclusion? A cold-cutting water jet lance is the best way of putting out an EV battery fire.
Exactly...❤
This here seems rather slow and behind other investigations and experiments.
I 100% agree with you.. this is politically motivated 🐂💩
re: "keep in mind that the average ICEV is 12 years old while most EVs are practically still fresh out of the factory since ~80% of them were sold over the last four or five years..." yup they're FOB (Fresh Off the Boat) or even "still in the Boat" in the context of the Felicity Ace sitting beneath 8,000ft of water off the Azores, and the context of the BURNED OUT HULK that was the Fremantle Highway, likely now having the last parts of it's keel cut for scrap in the Netherlands (Eemshaven) as we speak.
Other thing is total amount of vehicles favors ICE in the world.
If there is a high amount of one product and say 15% of them burns, 15% of 1000 is a lot more fires than 15% of 20 for an example.
@@CMDRSweeper When people talk about the frequency of EV vs HEV vs PHEV vs ICEV fires, it is usually normalized (ex.: incidents per 100k vehicles) to cancel out differences in fleet sizes between vehicle types.
Your videos are always fascinating - keep up the good work!
Thank you very much!
Thanks for all these great videos!!
Thanks Patrick,
Great presentation Cheers
Love your work and coverage on this very important topic. This is important research that is important globally as countries like my own (Australia) will never have the funds or see this as a priority to invest in this type of research. 👏👏👏
Thanks! This is very informative and educational
Manufacturers SHOULD get results and recommendations on how to build vehicles that are easier to deal with.
The reports will be public when compete.
@@StacheDTraining That's good to hear. I hope it's also discoverable and the car makers are made aware of it.
I'd imagine crash tests have led to things like crumple zones, etc. And would hope we get some of the same things here.
Thanks for this. Looking forward with interest to the data generated.
Capt Durham don't know if i mentioned this before but (if you haven't already) you should ALSO connect up with the BIC (Battery Innovation Center) in Indiana, they are nearby to Crane Naval Surface Warfare Center (which is the only "land locked" Navy Base so that should tell you something) and they do Fire testing work for both OEM's and the Military. Ben Wrightsman and Rodney Kidd both Fire Fighters and worked the massive Morris Li-Ion Battery Warehouse Fire near Chicago back in 2021. spoke with those guys on my annual trip to PRI Indiana back in Dec 2022...
in addition, another you may want to connect up with is Eric Huhn down at UNC Charlotte he's a Fire Fighter and Battery Safety Engineer that's formed an organization called EVRSAFE. he held their first conference back in October at Charlotte Motor Speeday, but it was short notice so i didn't attend. however i DID luck out and ended up meeting and speaking with him during my yearly Indiana PRI trip in Dec 2023. for reference we're all approaching the issue of Automotive Lithium Battery Fires from the next tier up of Motorsports/Racing, and Trackside Safety.
I recently did an interview on the cleanup side of the Morris Illinois fire. It should go live in the coming weeks.
@@StacheDTraining 👌
will be interesting if their data will be like the australian data I saw. They told what the black and white smoke (which is not condensation) was, how much volume a battery produce in these gases (600-5000 liter / kwh if I remember correctly) and all these explosve gases. edit about temperatures I think he said 1100 degrees. I found the clip th-cam.com/video/AIXTP-TgPEw/w-d-xo.html
Car fire is a car fire BEV or ICE. Difference is a Battery Fire under a self sustained circumstance!! The increased toxicity and generally "leave it burn" method (self sustaining) of a battery pack is what is so dangerous!!
By deliberately burning,vi i imagine you won't nessecerily get the jets of flame, as you would with a battery fault fire,
May be possible to instigate a battery fault to get genuine data
We did get jet flames. Vehicle construction is responsible for this phenomenon. It's really dependent where the battery vents are located.
The guy commented that he hadn't yet got the flame's shooting out, he didn't comment on how they set the vehicles on fire, though says starting the fire in the battery, burning from the outside could produce a different fire to one starting "within" the battery by one or more cell failures, I imagine he must be aware of this, assuming that is the case, also very early days with investigation, I appreciate
Good we are not at war, right !
Plastics don't make cars lighter. A MK1 Cortina was 800kg on the road, the equivalent Mondeo was nearly 2000kg. The weight gain is all down to extra structure to meet safety regs, extra comfort gear like AC electric windows power seats and an awful lot of plastic everywhere.
Extra gear and bloat: the cars have grown a lot, longer, wider, and taller on average.
I wonder if hydrogen vehicle fires would be easier to manage.
5:31 - Mr. McGuire: "I just wanna say one word to you, just one word, are you listening...?" Ben: "Yes Sir..." Mr. McGuire: "PLASTICS...!!!" Ben: "How do you mean...?" Mr. McGuire: "There's a great future in Plastics, think about it..." - Dustin Hoffman/The Graduate, circa 1967.
Having Govt and Manufacturers involved in any way with this research means the most important measuring equipment is a Bullsh*t Meter given they have skin in the game. They should only speak when spoken to and then have the B S meter on the most sensitive setting
Let me guess, you don't actually possess a brain.
Hydrogen Cyanide just joined the chat
European agencies have already done toxic gas analysis of EV fires and published their findings. I expect FSRI will have the same findings.
Where can I get the report?
@@venator5
Cant post direct link on YT, but there are two.
You will have to Google...
PMC5577247 Toxic fluoride gas emissions from lithium-ion battery fires
and
“Toxic Gases from Fire in Electric Vehicles”, O. Willstrand
@r5
It is not letting me post them.
Give me a second.
Journal List Scientific Reports PMC5577247
@@venator5
O. Willstrand et al., RISE Report 2020:90
@@venator5
Google those two as I pasted them.
Great to see someone on here NOT taken in by this politically sanitised 🐂💩. Saying that there's no data on EV fires is a huge joke - that or a bare faced lie. Battery chemistry will give you the vast amount of information that's needed.
and yet they're still pushing electric vehicles as if there are no consequences. I sometimes wonder what's really going on behind the scenes out there.
BATTERY VEHICLES. They are NOT driven by electricity as trains. Thank You
Not only are EV fires massively more toxic that ICE car fires, but they cost much more to extinguish. Have you ever seen all of the extra firefighting equipment and water and special blankets needed to put these fires out?
Shh, don't say that - these ppl are being paid to divert attention from the facts everyone else KNOWS.
It seems like science for the sake of science. I honesty can't see what this information is going to give us that we don't already have. OK, specific numbers but so what? We already know that all the figures are high above safety levels. Here in Australia, a year plus ago, we had two firefighters become disabled for life, because some of the smoke contacted their skin. Not from plastic as you seen to indicate but from the boron in the EV battery. Also, I didn't hear any comments regarding the speed of the fire from the first indication to ignition. How long does someone driving down the road have, from first indication until the battery ignites? What I have seen is horrifying. We have been lucky. To date, we have not seen parents who need to exit the vehicle to unstrap children, baby modules or the elderly or disabled in the back of the vehicle. EV cars and batteries need to be pulled off the roads until a high level of safety for owners and the public can be assured. Safety has to come first.
Go back and have another look at the report from the UFUA 2023 report on the disabled Victorian Firefighters. Then come back here and show me where it refers to boron. This time actually read it
Yeah, who needs science. Stupid science that's given us nearly everything that makes our lives possible. What good is it!
@@theairstig9164 No I won't do your leg work. I won't be someone's teacher. You have the information. Go to it or not. I have been through this too many times to play games with you.
The two firefighters suffered from *cobalt* poisoning, not boron as the report shows. Not all lithium ion battery chemistries include cobalt (e.g. LFP). That's why science is important...
@@CharlesBrodheadIII That is too narrow a viewpoint. Science has been corrupted.