One thing that occurs to me is that Chapter 3's Darkners might behave very differently from those in the first two, because unlike them they're all based on objects that are part of an active household and thus most of them are probably still fulfilling their purposes regularly. This should make them more satisfied and mentally stable, though crucially the TV (which is dusty and was actually plugged out until Chapter 2) is an exception and will probably be needy or resentful. They'll probably also be intimately familiar with the Dreemur family. Come to think of it, if you opened a Dark Fountain in an area that's popular and where people regularly visit, would the Darkners be radically different? What if you opened one in a place that's been abandoned for decades or centuries, like a ruined or abandoned building?
For the moment I think every Chapter 3's Dark World teaser were about the TV(?) Maybe I'm wrong, but it's going to be really interesting to check what you are saying tbh
The TV will straight up be like "I watched you grow up" 👀 I suspect this may tie into what the themes of this game seem to be, such as moving on/growing up, seeing as how indulging in the Dark World and creating more of them via fountains will destroy the world. And how this ties in with Kris' and many other's escapism. Truthfully, I haven't seen much teaser content for Chapter 3, but my impression is that the Dark World will be inside the television itself, while the TV still has it's own personality that will antagonise the party throughout the chapter
I mean the library wasn't out of use though until very recently? This is also mentioned by the people in Chapter 2's dark world. If anything this video really made me realize chapter 1s theme of abandonment was specific to that chapter, because they literally were an abandoned room of stuff. That theme doesn't seem to be universal to the dark worlds, it was specifically a chapter 1 thing.
I believe they’ll act really differently considering this Dark World was made by Kris, while (most likely) Gaster made the others. Ralsei mentions how Dark Worlds are influenced by the Dark Fountain which is nothing more than the will of its creator. So it’s likely that Darkners in Chapter 3 might be more depressed or they are weirder than the other Darkners.
The Holiday home is definitely a location. Dess is missing, Noelle sleeps at Catty and Catti's whenever she loses the key, Rudy is in the hospital, and Carol (C. Holiday, the mayor) is a workaholic who stays in the office late hours, perhaps even sleeping at her workplace. Meanwhile, the Holiday house itself is seemingly left abandoned...
I really like this explanation, to the point where I'm kinda mad at myself for not realising it on my own. The Darkners being able to remember what happened to them when they were just physical objects solves the seeming contradiction between the DWs being brand new and them having extensive histories. It's also much better than the other option, Last Thursdayism (which holds that their pasts and the Darkners' memories of that past are all fabrications made when the Fountain is opened).
Yeah, that was the option I considered at first too, but when you notice how well this one fits I think it's almost 100% accurate lorewise. Although there are still some unanswered questions.
@@LoreKeeperVG Turns out the screenshot I had in my notes was doctored. The rest is logical deduction that relies on three unproven premises. TL; DR: It's very likely that Queen comes from the classroom but there are a few small issues with the premises, and my initial statement was misleading. The reasoning displayed on Reddit is as follows: 1) We know that King and Seam know Queen (they both call her by name and recognize her in the CH2 epilogue). 2) The unused classroom is the only one in the school without a computer. 3) Libraries in real life (but not necessarily in DR) accept donations from schools when they stop using them. 4) The library relies on volunteers to manage it, so their budget probably cannot afford a cutting-edge laptop. 5) Queen is a cutting-edge laptop, so says her LW description. 6) Seam and King never left the unused classroom. 7) All classrooms should have computers. 8) No locations in Hometown have computers except Kris' house, the school, the library and the Hospital. 9) Only Ralsei has been observed to switch dark worlds unassisted. 10) All other computers on the CL are old models. 11) As an essential service, hospitals do not donate computers to libraries. Presume Ockham's Razor in all arguments. Then the logic goes that the library accpets computer donations per 3 and 4 (call this A). The unused classroom used to have a computer per 7 and 2 (call this B). The computer at the unused classroom is Queen per 5, 6 and 1 (C). The laptop is the most recent addition to the computer lab per 5 and 10 (D). The unused classroom's computer was removed after it's closing per B and 2 (E). Queen likely came from the school per A, C and 8 (F). Queen was likely donated to the library per A, 4 and 5 (G). Queen interacted with King and Seam before the lab fountain opened per G, C, D, 9, 1 and 6 (H). The hospital did not donate a high end laptop to the library per 11 and F. Therefore, Queen was the unused classroom computer and was donated from the school after interacting with seam and King, and the library did not buy her per H, G, F, and C. There are two problems with this: I) 4 is an induction, and 7 is unproven. II) 3 and 11 are sourced by the real world, not DR. III) Presumible the Knight could have moved her after the classroom fountain was made. IV) Evidence for stronger versions of this theory (like jevil knowing her) make undue assumptions about the secret bosses, and so this weaker version must be used. V) Why would the unused classroom have a better computer than the used classrooms? Why was it not moved to a used classroom? That makes no sense. VI) I goofed. EDIT: Spelling.
This is one of the best theory videos on Deltarune I've seen, fantastic stuff! As far as Jevil knowing about the Queen despite the computer lab classroom never being made, I've thought that since inanimate objects can have a shared history together if in the same room like Seam and Jevil, it could be that a computer used to be in the abandoned classroom back when it was used. It could have then been taken out. We can see a drawing of Gerson from Alvin in the abandoned classroom on yellowed paper, so the classroom most likely belonged to Gerson before he died. As well, the King and Queen both have a relationship together, so there must have been a point where both items were in the same room together, and each other classroom has a computer in it as well. Either way, this was great and I hope you continue to make more videos like this in the future.
My theory is close to yours but the difference being the Darkworlds always have existed, the opening of a fountain just gives us access to that parallel world.
@LoreKeeperVG True but, what if it's like a weird case of, now this is obviously just a theory going off how dimensions work, as followed. I just came up with this, still works with what you said though and the dialog. Their world exists parallel to ours. Dark Fountains open it and give us access to it, we see their world how they see it. Dimension Layers theory, the Lightner/Overworld is "above" the darkworld. Lightners can interact and effect the Darkworld, when they are obviously objects to us normally, but only when opening a fountain do we go "down" a dimension. Think going from our 3d environment down to a 2d one. We can effect the 2D plain but the 2D can't interact with us. That's what I think is happening. An only when a dark fountain is opened up, can we go into/access this "lower plain" and see it for how they, the darkners, normally see it as. Obviously this is conjecture and a theory, but I do think it still works within these confines and context. Yes they are objects yes they have dialog of objects being played with or what have you, but only when a dark fountain is opened giving ys access, do we see what they been seeing this whole time on their plain of existence. Like I said it's very similar to yours as otherwise I been thinking about this simply due to running a Deltarune themed D&D game.
I’m thinking it’s a weird combination of both. Because on one hand, yeah there are implications that the lightners created them, but in the other, the history and connections between the dark worlds don’t really seem to add up to “they were created by lightners”. I feel like darkners would be more concerned if they randomly gained sentience and were gonna lose it in a matter of hours, so while there are implications that the lightners created the world, there are far too many details that just don’t line up with that as I think they should. plus, and this one is my own opinion, but jevil and spamton going insane when learning the truth about their reality doesn’t really make sense in the context of them just being objects or concepts and already knowing about it. It feels bigger. My guess is the dark worlds existed previously but take on aspects of where they’re summoned and who punctured the hole between realities (although that last part is dubious because we don’t know who the knight is) Before the lightners came along they were more like an outline of something before given a theme and fleshed out. As an example, looking at the card kingdom, we hear a story of a court jester who went mad, and got locked up by a close friend, the court magician. After that, one of the four kings of the kingdom staged a coup to dethrone the other kings and leave himself as the one ruler. His son joined three heroes on a quest to dethrone him and take his rightful place. All of that sounds like an a summery of history or, an outline for a story lacking the game and toy theming. TLDR: I think the only thing the lightners create is the theme of the dark world, not necessarily the base history and personalities of the people living there.
i really like the idea that dark worlds are made in places where the objects are left without purpose. something always felt off about future chapter location theories where the location in question is full of things used every day. i could still see the church being one though. i also think kris left their door open at the end of chapter 2 to show its unlocked, i dont believe the dark world will spread to the outside. i could see someone from outside thinking the house is on fire though, like if they could see the smoke rising out. this video has such professional looking editing i was surprised you only have 25 subs!
Thank you :) Yeah, I also think this approach solves many of the inconsistencies that arised in other theories about the true nature of the Dark Worlds. We'll see how things change with Chapter 3!
Their is also this idea the Knight imbues their Will in the Dark World they create. The Dark Fountain imbues the Will of the Knight into them, and the Dark World plays like a Game.
Bro ngl with this top-tier editing I was expecting you to have oh Idk like at least 10-15k subs but then I looked down and noticed HOW IS THIS GUY ONLY AT 166 SUBS? bro nah you definitely earned my sub and also btw great theory that seems reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly well made and very much explains the mystery of the dark world's past, as well as your predictions for future dark world locations (I love all the possibilities and even saw the comment by Alphapizzadog talking abt the Holiday House being an option which by their reasoning, also sounds great). So yeah great vid can't wait for the next theory and also Ig we just gotta wait n see what happens in Deltarune (we are only at ch 2/7 so theres a lot of room for more lore but you did great with what little info we have so far)
It is very interesting that all of the currently known dark world locations are places that have been abandoned/disused - I hadn't really made that connection before. I do wonder if that's a qualifier for their creation diagetically, though, or just a narrative aspect. The Kris/Asriel connection is also interesting (and fits well with Kris Knight theory) but tbf quite a lot of locations in Hometown can be connected to them.
Here's my theory of what Deltarune seems to be going towards, as far as the meta-narrative is concerned. --------- The Angel and the Anti-Angel are fighting over control of the narrative. How do they do this? By using Lighters and Darkners as proxies. The Angel wants the story to play out exactly as the story is supposed to. (According to them, naturally) With Light winning out over Dark. The Anti-Angel wants the story to play out according to the prophecy Ralsei told us. With the "Angel's Heaven" banished and Dark winning over Light. The Lightners, Darkners, and the player themselves are all being used as pawns in a greater scheme.
@@Blastankerfor the love of god can we stop with that. Toby Fox did not “destroy” Matpat he just pointed out a mistake that they might not have thought of
@@icantthinkstraight8853 nah did you even see the conversation? Matpat was trying to pointlessly defend himself with a plethora of tweets instead of owning up to it till eventually Toby appeared and told him to just stop. I would consider that a “destroy” moment
Sub from me! From all the theory vids I've seen only you and Halfbread Chaos have managed to capture me with your theory crafting. I am looking forward to the next one!
12:08 - 12:18 Simple, the same way the other residents of card kingdom knew about queen; She's a laptop, she's portable. She could have been taken to the classroom when it was still used any time.
Thank you for actually explaining Dark Worlds to me. Most the time I see a "something explained" video the person making it is overly arrogant and doesn't actually solve anything or explain the subject very well at all, they just continue on and pretend they've explained it or something, this video actually did a really good job analyzing the game to come to a logical conclusion about Dark Worlds and did a really good job explaining what Dark Worlds are and how they work. It's one of the few explanation videos that actually explains the subject in It's entirety and in an understandable way so thanks for making it because it really helped out my understanding of Dark Worlds. Good job
Thanks! I don't like those kind of titles too, but I thought I had a really good explanation for what Dark Worlds are with what we know at the moment. Glad to know I didn't disappoint you :)
There's a spiritual belief that objects absorb the energy of the people that use them, and that objects tecnecily have some small form of a soul! My theory is that spiritual belief is true in Deltarune, their history before the dark world is from the energy they have! When the dark worlds are made, the energy of a small object grows to the size of a human, that's how a normal door turns into the Great Door, and that's how playing cards turn into people! If you think about it that way it makes a lot more understood, like someone who knew about whatever queen was before the dark world could have played with Jevil's card, making his soul have an idea of what queen is!
That is a really good theory, I like It. It fits perfectly with mine, but giving the "Lightners created the Darkners by playing with them" idea a more literal meaning! Love it!
Personally i still like the idea of the darkworlds having existed before the events of the game with dess/asriel having gone through them before but its more of a headcanon then a theory lol
Nice video, though there is one bit of evidence from the Spamton Sweepstakes that kinda puts a hole in your theory about what are the dark world/darkners. Basically your theory states that darkners were just normal non-sentient objects before coming into contact with the dark fountain’s shadows, where they become people with histories based on the history/usage of said object. However in Noelle’s blog from the sweepstakes, we are shown a story that talks about Noelle receiving a strange spam mail that has mod data for her game catpetterz 2. She puts it in the game which gives her game one of Spamton’s pepis, which then does what pepis do and multiply and crashes her game. Later in the sweepstakes the ask Spamton revealed that Spamton was indeed the one who gave Noelle the pepis as thanks for being the only one to look at his emails. This story only really makes any sense if Spamton was a sentient being at the time, as why would a normal Spambot send out a game crashing pet for a video game instead of sending any other kind of code that would instead doing something that crashes the pc or stealing your credit card info? Also why would it use a pepis, something that is only specifically associated with Spamton and not any of the other Addisons. This story doesn’t really make sense without Spamton being an intelligent, sentient being, which would therefore imply that the other darkners are too, even before their respective fountains are created.
I mean, I don't see how this doesn't fit in my theory. If I remember correctly, at the end It was just that Noelle was the only one innocent enough to answer spam mails (Spamton) and when she received a virus and tried to use it as a mod it created a corrupted blue egg (Pipis).
Yes, the dark world are just world where live the inanimate object that lightners use everyday, or not, but still are objects, but what actually confuses me, is the relationship of Queen and King, at the end of chapter 2 we know that they know each other (maybe they were lovers?) so I dunno... it seems strange, unless those worlds were really connected somehow to be explored and darkners had the opportunity to meet each other, hell even Jevil mention Queen. (just assuming this last thing, i know that darkners turns stones in the darkworld where they don't belong to). I dunno is still kinda confusing, and despite all fans try to search an answer for it we cannot actually give a proper answer right now, because we are lacking with informations that probably would be explained in the future chapters, we can only just wait at this point.
On the topic of real world locations becoming Dark Worlds, I have a mini theory or prediction, based on the assumption your theory is correct. We already know there will be 7 chapters, meaning the overarching story needs to reach some sort of climax or definining mid point by about chapter 4, maybe 5, giving a few chapters for us to see what this problem is at its worst. So it's assumed chapter 3 will be the living room or video games given the ending of chapter 2. I'm going to guess that chapter 4 will be the Asgore's flower shop. The entire shop, the largest Dark World so far. Now, from here, I can see two options. Either that's the turning point, or we get one more Dark World before the turning point. If we get one more, it would be the church, which could even lead into the final two chapters. Once again, a much bigger Dark World than others. Then chapters 6 and 7 will be only one final Dark World, the largest one ever. Or if he doesn't do the church, it will span 3 chapters, 5, 6, and 7. The entire town. These chapters won't be split up by returning to the Light World and finding a new Dark World. They will be split up by a reveal about Asriel. Maybe he's not just at college, but worse. Maybe he is at college but gets into an accident. Maybe he just comes home. I'm not sure which. Any changes to the map between chapters might just be access to different parts of this new, massive Dark World. There are some potential variations depending on if Toby decides to push more connections to Undertale. For example, skipping the church, but having only chapters 5 and 6 be the entire town, while chapter 7 brings us to that mystery area believed to be linked to Gaster, if he wants to expand upon that connection as part of the story and not being more like Sans' room and workshop in Undertale, an unlockable area with no direct plot relevance. Similar would thus go for Grillby's given the connection to Sans. It kind of depends on if he wants to keep the Gaster stuff a mystery forever or if he wants to finally give us answers. In either case, the main focus of my prediction is a massive Dark World spanning the entire town and lasting two chapters. A bonus prediction with that is that I believe, either as an Easter egg or part of the story, we'll see the world from Undertale, either directly or indirectly, like some sort of landscape shot like the one in Undertale with Monster Kid where the castle is in the background, but showing something to imply it's the Underground and that the Underground might actually be a Dark World as well. More likely an Easter egg, one that hints at the possibility while also making it seem possible it isn't actually the Underground and just looks like it.
Well, this theory is quite solid! But I would point out that darkners are not *just* living objects, it is something... Weirder. To put it simply, there would not be, for example, such a huge difference in numbers of card folk (two of spades and clubs, and army of hearts and diamonds), or there would _four_ court jesters, or there would _only_ 6 Mauses on the whole sity and so on. But it does not ruin theory or anything! It is still technically the same thing, just a bit more... Abstractive. So, yeah, it was just a little note of mine.
So far we know that 4 sources have been opened: The one in the school closet (1) which is still open; The playroom next door (2) closed in chapter 1; The computer lab (3) closed in chapter 2; Recently, Kris's living room (4). Taking into account the double doors and Toby's passion for the number 7, I think we can risk saying that the next chapters are in Asgore's flower shop (5), the hospital (6) and the banker (7). Asgore, former police chief and divorced from Toriel... His best friend, Rudy hospitalized... Dess missing... Death of Gerson, probably a former teacher at the school as shown in the drawing made by "Alvin"... Was there something at the time when Gerson was a teacher and both Asriel and Dess were still studying at that school? Did some big problem arise that made Asgore give up his leadership of the police involving Dess's disappearance and Rudy's illness? Or we can go further... If Ralsei claims to have waited alone for a long time and to have no subjects... Who, in fact, opened the first fountain? Your theory left me euphoric. Thank you very much! :D Edit: I needed Google translate to communicate. I apologize in advance if any sentence doesn't make sense... (But if the theory still doesn't make sense, it's not entirely the translator's fault)
I think he may be something in between, as everything seems to point towards him being the headband, but as his Dark Fountain works in a different way... Who knows.
Alphys says this if we talk to her before going out of the classroom in Chapter 2. "So maybe you were just... Staying up late talking to Asriel online again?"
I believe that Deltarune is a prequel before the war. None of the characters know what's about to unfold. That's why Undyne's got both eyes, and no eyepatch. As for Ralsei and the dark world, I believe Ralsei is a 'DM' and Kris and Susie are playing a game, like DND... and Ralsei's using magic to make the game come to life before their very eyes. Whether the game is actually coming to life, no clue. And the motives for why they're doing so is unclear. I also don't think Kris, the vessel we're controlling, will be important to the story of Undertale. Or it really IS all just an AU, and Toby's not lying.
@@LoreKeeperVG True, he does attack with the suits, but his fight involves a lot of spinning, he talks about freedom with excitement as if he were trapped in a box and just got out, and, if he's attacked, his neck is exposed, revealing a spring. Also, another name for a Jack-in-the-box is "Devil in a box."
Mmmm... So he has things from both concepts... But at the end as the main theme of the Chapter are cards, I think I would stick to that. But really cool appreciation tbh.
So you’re saying that the darker can not exist in the normal world or also be turned to stone for all three worlds Sorry for stating the obvious I just wanna be sure
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One thing that occurs to me is that Chapter 3's Darkners might behave very differently from those in the first two, because unlike them they're all based on objects that are part of an active household and thus most of them are probably still fulfilling their purposes regularly. This should make them more satisfied and mentally stable, though crucially the TV (which is dusty and was actually plugged out until Chapter 2) is an exception and will probably be needy or resentful. They'll probably also be intimately familiar with the Dreemur family. Come to think of it, if you opened a Dark Fountain in an area that's popular and where people regularly visit, would the Darkners be radically different? What if you opened one in a place that's been abandoned for decades or centuries, like a ruined or abandoned building?
For the moment I think every Chapter 3's Dark World teaser were about the TV(?) Maybe I'm wrong, but it's going to be really interesting to check what you are saying tbh
The TV will straight up be like "I watched you grow up" 👀
I suspect this may tie into what the themes of this game seem to be, such as moving on/growing up, seeing as how indulging in the Dark World and creating more of them via fountains will destroy the world. And how this ties in with Kris' and many other's escapism.
Truthfully, I haven't seen much teaser content for Chapter 3, but my impression is that the Dark World will be inside the television itself, while the TV still has it's own personality that will antagonise the party throughout the chapter
I mean the library wasn't out of use though until very recently? This is also mentioned by the people in Chapter 2's dark world.
If anything this video really made me realize chapter 1s theme of abandonment was specific to that chapter, because they literally were an abandoned room of stuff. That theme doesn't seem to be universal to the dark worlds, it was specifically a chapter 1 thing.
I believe they’ll act really differently considering this Dark World was made by Kris, while (most likely) Gaster made the others. Ralsei mentions how Dark Worlds are influenced by the Dark Fountain which is nothing more than the will of its creator.
So it’s likely that Darkners in Chapter 3 might be more depressed or they are weirder than the other Darkners.
@@loganbreau882I could honestly call it a "Nostalgia Nightmare"
The Holiday home is definitely a location. Dess is missing, Noelle sleeps at Catty and Catti's whenever she loses the key, Rudy is in the hospital, and Carol (C. Holiday, the mayor) is a workaholic who stays in the office late hours, perhaps even sleeping at her workplace.
Meanwhile, the Holiday house itself is seemingly left abandoned...
Yeah, it fits really good with the "places that lost their purpose" theory. We'll see 👀
HMMMM
I really like this explanation, to the point where I'm kinda mad at myself for not realising it on my own. The Darkners being able to remember what happened to them when they were just physical objects solves the seeming contradiction between the DWs being brand new and them having extensive histories. It's also much better than the other option, Last Thursdayism (which holds that their pasts and the Darkners' memories of that past are all fabrications made when the Fountain is opened).
Yeah, that was the option I considered at first too, but when you notice how well this one fits I think it's almost 100% accurate lorewise. Although there are still some unanswered questions.
12:18 We know that the laptop used to be somewhere else. It's possible that it used to be in the classroom
Could you tell me where I can read that? I think I must have missed it.
@@LoreKeeperVG Turns out the screenshot I had in my notes was doctored. The rest is logical deduction that relies on three unproven premises.
TL; DR: It's very likely that Queen comes from the classroom but there are a few small issues with the premises, and my initial statement was misleading.
The reasoning displayed on Reddit is as follows: 1) We know that King and Seam know Queen (they both call her by name and recognize her in the CH2 epilogue). 2) The unused classroom is the only one in the school without a computer. 3) Libraries in real life (but not necessarily in DR) accept donations from schools when they stop using them. 4) The library relies on volunteers to manage it, so their budget probably cannot afford a cutting-edge laptop. 5) Queen is a cutting-edge laptop, so says her LW description. 6) Seam and King never left the unused classroom. 7) All classrooms should have computers. 8) No locations in Hometown have computers except Kris' house, the school, the library and the Hospital. 9) Only Ralsei has been observed to switch dark worlds unassisted. 10) All other computers on the CL are old models. 11) As an essential service, hospitals do not donate computers to libraries. Presume Ockham's Razor in all arguments.
Then the logic goes that the library accpets computer donations per 3 and 4 (call this A). The unused classroom used to have a computer per 7 and 2 (call this B). The computer at the unused classroom is Queen per 5, 6 and 1 (C). The laptop is the most recent addition to the computer lab per 5 and 10 (D). The unused classroom's computer was removed after it's closing per B and 2 (E). Queen likely came from the school per A, C and 8 (F). Queen was likely donated to the library per A, 4 and 5 (G). Queen interacted with King and Seam before the lab fountain opened per G, C, D, 9, 1 and 6 (H). The hospital did not donate a high end laptop to the library per 11 and F.
Therefore, Queen was the unused classroom computer and was donated from the school after interacting with seam and King, and the library did not buy her per H, G, F, and C.
There are two problems with this: I) 4 is an induction, and 7 is unproven. II) 3 and 11 are sourced by the real world, not DR. III) Presumible the Knight could have moved her after the classroom fountain was made. IV) Evidence for stronger versions of this theory (like jevil knowing her) make undue assumptions about the secret bosses, and so this weaker version must be used. V) Why would the unused classroom have a better computer than the used classrooms? Why was it not moved to a used classroom? That makes no sense. VI) I goofed.
EDIT: Spelling.
This is one of the best theory videos on Deltarune I've seen, fantastic stuff!
As far as Jevil knowing about the Queen despite the computer lab classroom never being made, I've thought that since inanimate objects can have a shared history together if in the same room like Seam and Jevil, it could be that a computer used to be in the abandoned classroom back when it was used. It could have then been taken out. We can see a drawing of Gerson from Alvin in the abandoned classroom on yellowed paper, so the classroom most likely belonged to Gerson before he died. As well, the King and Queen both have a relationship together, so there must have been a point where both items were in the same room together, and each other classroom has a computer in it as well.
Either way, this was great and I hope you continue to make more videos like this in the future.
Thank you! :)
I guess It could also be that someone took the cards to the library and played with them there(?) Who knows
My theory is close to yours but the difference being the Darkworlds always have existed, the opening of a fountain just gives us access to that parallel world.
That's what many people think, but them just being objects before the Dark Fountains creation fits better with what Darkners say about themselves
@LoreKeeperVG True but, what if it's like a weird case of, now this is obviously just a theory going off how dimensions work, as followed.
I just came up with this, still works with what you said though and the dialog.
Their world exists parallel to ours.
Dark Fountains open it and give us access to it, we see their world how they see it.
Dimension Layers theory, the Lightner/Overworld is "above" the darkworld.
Lightners can interact and effect the Darkworld, when they are obviously objects to us normally, but only when opening a fountain do we go "down" a dimension.
Think going from our 3d environment down to a 2d one.
We can effect the 2D plain but the 2D can't interact with us.
That's what I think is happening.
An only when a dark fountain is opened up, can we go into/access this "lower plain" and see it for how they, the darkners, normally see it as.
Obviously this is conjecture and a theory, but I do think it still works within these confines and context.
Yes they are objects yes they have dialog of objects being played with or what have you, but only when a dark fountain is opened giving ys access, do we see what they been seeing this whole time on their plain of existence.
Like I said it's very similar to yours as otherwise I been thinking about this simply due to running a Deltarune themed D&D game.
I’m thinking it’s a weird combination of both. Because on one hand, yeah there are implications that the lightners created them, but in the other, the history and connections between the dark worlds don’t really seem to add up to “they were created by lightners”. I feel like darkners would be more concerned if they randomly gained sentience and were gonna lose it in a matter of hours, so while there are implications that the lightners created the world, there are far too many details that just don’t line up with that as I think they should.
plus, and this one is my own opinion, but jevil and spamton going insane when learning the truth about their reality doesn’t really make sense in the context of them just being objects or concepts and already knowing about it. It feels bigger.
My guess is the dark worlds existed previously but take on aspects of where they’re summoned and who punctured the hole between realities (although that last part is dubious because we don’t know who the knight is) Before the lightners came along they were more like an outline of something before given a theme and fleshed out. As an example, looking at the card kingdom, we hear a story of a court jester who went mad, and got locked up by a close friend, the court magician. After that, one of the four kings of the kingdom staged a coup to dethrone the other kings and leave himself as the one ruler. His son joined three heroes on a quest to dethrone him and take his rightful place. All of that sounds like an a summery of history or, an outline for a story lacking the game and toy theming.
TLDR: I think the only thing the lightners create is the theme of the dark world, not necessarily the base history and personalities of the people living there.
"Lets go one step further, like Sans with Kris' Mother" has me dying.
🦴👀
i really like the idea that dark worlds are made in places where the objects are left without purpose. something always felt off about future chapter location theories where the location in question is full of things used every day. i could still see the church being one though. i also think kris left their door open at the end of chapter 2 to show its unlocked, i dont believe the dark world will spread to the outside. i could see someone from outside thinking the house is on fire though, like if they could see the smoke rising out.
this video has such professional looking editing i was surprised you only have 25 subs!
Thank you :)
Yeah, I also think this approach solves many of the inconsistencies that arised in other theories about the true nature of the Dark Worlds. We'll see how things change with Chapter 3!
I was so surprised to see 57 subs on ur channel, I expected alot more judging by your script, voice and video editing quality, keep up the good work!
Thank you! I'm trying my best with this new adventure in TH-cam, so I'm glad it's worth it :)
Their is also this idea the Knight imbues their Will in the Dark World they create. The Dark Fountain imbues the Will of the Knight into them, and the Dark World plays like a Game.
I don't know if I'm 100% getting what you are saying, but yeah, the Fountains and Dark Worlds are based on the will of the Knight.
The Knight imbued the Darkners purpose into the Darkners based on what their objects. Using them like the Game objects their are.@@LoreKeeperVG
This makes so incredibly much sense, can’t believe I didn’t think of this before. Also the editing is so good, good job man!
Thank you! :D
Well done! I hope your channel grows from these theories.
Thanks! Hope so :)
Bro ngl with this top-tier editing I was expecting you to have oh Idk like at least 10-15k subs but then I looked down and noticed HOW IS THIS GUY ONLY AT 166 SUBS? bro nah you definitely earned my sub and also btw great theory that seems reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly well made and very much explains the mystery of the dark world's past, as well as your predictions for future dark world locations (I love all the possibilities and even saw the comment by Alphapizzadog talking abt the Holiday House being an option which by their reasoning, also sounds great). So yeah great vid can't wait for the next theory and also Ig we just gotta wait n see what happens in Deltarune (we are only at ch 2/7 so theres a lot of room for more lore but you did great with what little info we have so far)
Thank you! I've just started, so thanks for the support :) And yeah, we'll see, next Chapters will surely change everything we know.
now this is a theory that is believable and can be close to the real thing.
i enjoyed that very much, great video!
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it! :)
It is very interesting that all of the currently known dark world locations are places that have been abandoned/disused - I hadn't really made that connection before. I do wonder if that's a qualifier for their creation diagetically, though, or just a narrative aspect. The Kris/Asriel connection is also interesting (and fits well with Kris Knight theory) but tbf quite a lot of locations in Hometown can be connected to them.
Here's my theory of what Deltarune seems to be going towards, as far as the meta-narrative is concerned.
---------
The Angel and the Anti-Angel are fighting over control of the narrative.
How do they do this? By using Lighters and Darkners as proxies.
The Angel wants the story to play out exactly as the story is supposed to. (According to them, naturally)
With Light winning out over Dark.
The Anti-Angel wants the story to play out according to the prophecy Ralsei told us.
With the "Angel's Heaven" banished and Dark winning over Light.
The Lightners, Darkners, and the player themselves are all being used as pawns in a greater scheme.
That would be really cool tbh
THE FEELIES THAT THIS GAME GIVES
It's like no other
Matt patt used to be the MAN 👑 but noww he doesnt even make new deltarune theories (because of a twitter spat with TOBY FOX). 😭😭😭
He is probably waiting for more Chapters to be released.
Hol up I didn't know about that
@@briggsstuverToby actually destroyed him for not crediting fan game creators
@@Blastankerfor the love of god can we stop with that. Toby Fox did not “destroy” Matpat he just pointed out a mistake that they might not have thought of
@@icantthinkstraight8853 nah did you even see the conversation? Matpat was trying to pointlessly defend himself with a plethora of tweets instead of owning up to it till eventually Toby appeared and told him to just stop. I would consider that a “destroy” moment
Sub from me! From all the theory vids I've seen only you and Halfbread Chaos have managed to capture me with your theory crafting. I am looking forward to the next one!
Thank you! Really happy to read that :)
12:08 - 12:18 Simple, the same way the other residents of card kingdom knew about queen;
She's a laptop, she's portable. She could have been taken to the classroom when it was still used any time.
Great Video!! This is kinda awesome, you need more subs
Thank you! I've just started, but time will tell :)
Thank you for actually explaining Dark Worlds to me. Most the time I see a "something explained" video the person making it is overly arrogant and doesn't actually solve anything or explain the subject very well at all, they just continue on and pretend they've explained it or something, this video actually did a really good job analyzing the game to come to a logical conclusion about Dark Worlds and did a really good job explaining what Dark Worlds are and how they work. It's one of the few explanation videos that actually explains the subject in It's entirety and in an understandable way so thanks for making it because it really helped out my understanding of Dark Worlds. Good job
Thanks! I don't like those kind of titles too, but I thought I had a really good explanation for what Dark Worlds are with what we know at the moment. Glad to know I didn't disappoint you :)
@@LoreKeeperVG np, it did actually explain Dark Worlds the best I've seen so far, so it earns that title
This is a very cool video, dude! I hope you get way more recognition!
Thank you for your kind words! :) I hope so
@@LoreKeeperVG No problem. Keep up the good work.
There's a spiritual belief that objects absorb the energy of the people that use them, and that objects tecnecily have some small form of a soul!
My theory is that spiritual belief is true in Deltarune, their history before the dark world is from the energy they have! When the dark worlds are made, the energy of a small object grows to the size of a human, that's how a normal door turns into the Great Door, and that's how playing cards turn into people! If you think about it that way it makes a lot more understood, like someone who knew about whatever queen was before the dark world could have played with Jevil's card, making his soul have an idea of what queen is!
That is a really good theory, I like It. It fits perfectly with mine, but giving the "Lightners created the Darkners by playing with them" idea a more literal meaning! Love it!
HOW DO YOU ONLY HAVE 60 SUBS??? very underrated channel
Thanks! I've just stated (yesterday I only had 6 subs lol), but I'm glad people are starting to like my videos :)
seriously, you have a really good editing style, keep it up!@@LoreKeeperVG
Personally i still like the idea of the darkworlds having existed before the events of the game with dess/asriel having gone through them before but its more of a headcanon then a theory lol
Would be really cool tbh. Maybe older Dark Fountains that were closed too?
@@LoreKeeperVG yeah that was along the lines of what i was thinking :D
Nice video, though there is one bit of evidence from the Spamton Sweepstakes that kinda puts a hole in your theory about what are the dark world/darkners. Basically your theory states that darkners were just normal non-sentient objects before coming into contact with the dark fountain’s shadows, where they become people with histories based on the history/usage of said object. However in Noelle’s blog from the sweepstakes, we are shown a story that talks about Noelle receiving a strange spam mail that has mod data for her game catpetterz 2. She puts it in the game which gives her game one of Spamton’s pepis, which then does what pepis do and multiply and crashes her game. Later in the sweepstakes the ask Spamton revealed that Spamton was indeed the one who gave Noelle the pepis as thanks for being the only one to look at his emails. This story only really makes any sense if Spamton was a sentient being at the time, as why would a normal Spambot send out a game crashing pet for a video game instead of sending any other kind of code that would instead doing something that crashes the pc or stealing your credit card info? Also why would it use a pepis, something that is only specifically associated with Spamton and not any of the other Addisons. This story doesn’t really make sense without Spamton being an intelligent, sentient being, which would therefore imply that the other darkners are too, even before their respective fountains are created.
I mean, I don't see how this doesn't fit in my theory. If I remember correctly, at the end It was just that Noelle was the only one innocent enough to answer spam mails (Spamton) and when she received a virus and tried to use it as a mod it created a corrupted blue egg (Pipis).
This is very nice analysis 😊
Thank you! :)
I really like the editing of this video. You just earned a sub!
Thank you and welcome! Glad you liked it ❤️
i smell great potential from your channel. subscribed before you get big!
Thank you, hope you are right :)
Yes, the dark world are just world where live the inanimate object that lightners use everyday, or not, but still are objects, but what actually confuses me, is the relationship of Queen and King, at the end of chapter 2 we know that they know each other (maybe they were lovers?) so I dunno... it seems strange, unless those worlds were really connected somehow to be explored and darkners had the opportunity to meet each other, hell even Jevil mention Queen. (just assuming this last thing, i know that darkners turns stones in the darkworld where they don't belong to).
I dunno is still kinda confusing, and despite all fans try to search an answer for it we cannot actually give a proper answer right now, because we are lacking with informations that probably would be explained in the future chapters, we can only just wait at this point.
On the topic of real world locations becoming Dark Worlds, I have a mini theory or prediction, based on the assumption your theory is correct.
We already know there will be 7 chapters, meaning the overarching story needs to reach some sort of climax or definining mid point by about chapter 4, maybe 5, giving a few chapters for us to see what this problem is at its worst.
So it's assumed chapter 3 will be the living room or video games given the ending of chapter 2. I'm going to guess that chapter 4 will be the Asgore's flower shop. The entire shop, the largest Dark World so far.
Now, from here, I can see two options. Either that's the turning point, or we get one more Dark World before the turning point.
If we get one more, it would be the church, which could even lead into the final two chapters. Once again, a much bigger Dark World than others.
Then chapters 6 and 7 will be only one final Dark World, the largest one ever. Or if he doesn't do the church, it will span 3 chapters, 5, 6, and 7. The entire town. These chapters won't be split up by returning to the Light World and finding a new Dark World. They will be split up by a reveal about Asriel. Maybe he's not just at college, but worse. Maybe he is at college but gets into an accident. Maybe he just comes home. I'm not sure which. Any changes to the map between chapters might just be access to different parts of this new, massive Dark World.
There are some potential variations depending on if Toby decides to push more connections to Undertale. For example, skipping the church, but having only chapters 5 and 6 be the entire town, while chapter 7 brings us to that mystery area believed to be linked to Gaster, if he wants to expand upon that connection as part of the story and not being more like Sans' room and workshop in Undertale, an unlockable area with no direct plot relevance. Similar would thus go for Grillby's given the connection to Sans. It kind of depends on if he wants to keep the Gaster stuff a mystery forever or if he wants to finally give us answers.
In either case, the main focus of my prediction is a massive Dark World spanning the entire town and lasting two chapters.
A bonus prediction with that is that I believe, either as an Easter egg or part of the story, we'll see the world from Undertale, either directly or indirectly, like some sort of landscape shot like the one in Undertale with Monster Kid where the castle is in the background, but showing something to imply it's the Underground and that the Underground might actually be a Dark World as well. More likely an Easter egg, one that hints at the possibility while also making it seem possible it isn't actually the Underground and just looks like it.
"like toy story but in VR" is a great line
Thanks, I think It was a pretty straightforward way of picturing it
Well, this theory is quite solid! But I would point out that darkners are not *just* living objects, it is something... Weirder. To put it simply, there would not be, for example, such a huge difference in numbers of card folk (two of spades and clubs, and army of hearts and diamonds), or there would _four_ court jesters, or there would _only_ 6 Mauses on the whole sity and so on.
But it does not ruin theory or anything! It is still technically the same thing, just a bit more... Abstractive. So, yeah, it was just a little note of mine.
This video was very well done 👍🏽 you gained a subscriber ❤
Thank you! :)
So far we know that 4 sources have been opened: The one in the school closet (1) which is still open; The playroom next door (2) closed in chapter 1; The computer lab (3) closed in chapter 2; Recently, Kris's living room (4).
Taking into account the double doors and Toby's passion for the number 7, I think we can risk saying that the next chapters are in Asgore's flower shop (5), the hospital (6) and the banker (7).
Asgore, former police chief and divorced from Toriel... His best friend, Rudy hospitalized... Dess missing... Death of Gerson, probably a former teacher at the school as shown in the drawing made by "Alvin"... Was there something at the time when Gerson was a teacher and both Asriel and Dess were still studying at that school? Did some big problem arise that made Asgore give up his leadership of the police involving Dess's disappearance and Rudy's illness?
Or we can go further... If Ralsei claims to have waited alone for a long time and to have no subjects... Who, in fact, opened the first fountain? Your theory left me euphoric. Thank you very much! :D
Edit: I needed Google translate to communicate. I apologize in advance if any sentence doesn't make sense... (But if the theory still doesn't make sense, it's not entirely the translator's fault)
We will watch your career with great interest
Thanks, hope you'll like my videos :)
it scares me that this reinforces the importance of woody thematically. Like the darkners are literally toy story characters by this logic
Yeah, It would kinda work that way
personally, i dont think ralsei is even a darkner. maybe hes a being created out of the nostalgia, sent to help kris
I think he may be something in between, as everything seems to point towards him being the headband, but as his Dark Fountain works in a different way... Who knows.
Good analysis! Please make more :)
Thank you! :)
7:57 hmm i dont remeber her saying that
Alphys says this if we talk to her before going out of the classroom in Chapter 2. "So maybe you were just... Staying up late talking to Asriel online again?"
@@LoreKeeperVG okay thank you 👍
Honestly for the longest time I thought that Chris's brother and the dark Prince were the same dude
It happens, don't worry
Bro you're so underrated
I mean, I've just "spawned", but thanks :) Time will tell
KrisKnight is Based
I wouldn't discard other options yet
@@LoreKeeperVG Yeah, including KrisKnight bc people hate the theory for some reason
Interesting video!
Thanks!
This is a great video :)
10:12 "why Kris opened his house's door"
I'm assuming this is just a mistake? Or is "his" referring to someone else?
Yeah, totally an error on my part, sorry.
@@LoreKeeperVG Good to hear that! I love the video.
I'm sold
You've got me interested
Glad to hear that 👀
Great video man!
Thanks! :)
I believe that Deltarune is a prequel before the war. None of the characters know what's about to unfold. That's why Undyne's got both eyes, and no eyepatch.
As for Ralsei and the dark world, I believe Ralsei is a 'DM' and Kris and Susie are playing a game, like DND... and Ralsei's using magic to make the game come to life before their very eyes. Whether the game is actually coming to life, no clue. And the motives for why they're doing so is unclear.
I also don't think Kris, the vessel we're controlling, will be important to the story of Undertale.
Or it really IS all just an AU, and Toby's not lying.
By the way, I commented this on a more unrelated video, so I copy-pasted it here.
Deltarune can't happen before Undertale, even if they shared the same universe.
So is King basically Lots'o from Toy Story 3?
Yeah, more or less. But a lot less fluffy.
Well thought out. I'm in.
Glad you liked it :)
What if the world in undertale was just another world kris created but it encompassed the whole town 👀
Spoiler: Undyne is Knight
Doubt it, tbh
Regarding your representation of Jevil, I am fairly certain that he is actually a Jack-in-the-box, not a playing card.
I mean, he is literally the Joker. He uses attacks from every type of card.
@@LoreKeeperVG True, he does attack with the suits, but his fight involves a lot of spinning, he talks about freedom with excitement as if he were trapped in a box and just got out, and, if he's attacked, his neck is exposed, revealing a spring. Also, another name for a Jack-in-the-box is "Devil in a box."
Mmmm... So he has things from both concepts... But at the end as the main theme of the Chapter are cards, I think I would stick to that. But really cool appreciation tbh.
So you’re saying that the darker can not exist in the normal world or also be turned to stone for all three worlds
Sorry for stating the obvious I just wanna be sure
Bro for me, this video has 700 views and 43k likes 💀 TH-cam are trying
I wish, It only has around 100 likes lol