Contrapuntal playing and voicing with Fred Hersch 1. Utilize 4 voicing techniques: (1) Melody and harmony in RH using 45 finger technique (2) Alto in RH using 123 finger technique with rhythmic (3) Bass in LH using 1 finger technique (4) LH plays notes in the chord but avoid double notes 2. Avoid double notes 3. Do not use basic chords (e.g. LH 17), you should add extensions, voicings, rootless chords, etc. 4. Make sure you know the melody and its harmony using RH 45 finger technique 5. Make sure you know the bass using LH 1 finger technique 6. Maintain voice leading and avoid skipping notes 7. The mindset is to focus on "lots of moving parts" 8. Bass - Tenor - Alto - Soprano 9. In music theory, the tenor voice is louder than the alto voice.
Mr. Fred Hersch you didn't talk about your left hand!!! That's the ultimate secret!!! it sounds so melodic, supportive, and corresponding to right hand at the same time. It will be such an honor to understand what's going on for left hand counter melodies😭
Thank you so much, Fred, for your "Worst Chords I n The World". My hands are small for a pianist--- I have to roll a 9th!--- so spreading chords out between both hands has always been my bread and butter. Your affirmation is music to my ears!
Greatpianist, great musician...I used to hear him regularly at 1 fifth avenue , the knickerbocker saloon and the vanguard in the early eighties- he has done so many amazing things since then....
Thank you Fred! I love the stacked 5th, but it is the stacked 4th that I chose to employ. I love the sound of the 7th on the bottom and the root on the top. Thank you for your work!
Yay! What an inspiring video. Thank you. I intuitively tried the not having redundant notes thing on my own but it's good to hear what that can result in with a studious person like you. This is reassuring and I will redouble (!) My efforts now.
Doubling sounds great on electric keyboards and for R&B/Gospel/Contemporary keyboard voicings. This is mainly because keyboards don’t have overtones like acoustic piano. The overtones concept makes doubling not only redundant but results in a limited ability to explore the full harmonic potential of the acoustic piano.
The 3rd worst voicing Fred Hersch showed is actually the left hand chord chosen by Claus Ogerman in the opening of the 2nd movement of Symbiosis, played by Bill Evans. The right hand he plays a flat 9 interval F# and G), and the left hand a straight em7 ( E G B D). So, a chord ( voicing) in itself is not pathetic. It may sound very musically weak in certain contexts.
@@user-dn8zv9gj1yplay the chord I've laid out in the comment and you'll see that a chord in itself is never pathetic. Context is everything. It may be a rare event but the pathetic chord will show up with all its beauty at some point.
I'm so glad that TH-cam suggested your video it was so enlightening to me and I'm so grateful to you. The video also shows how I was under estimating how far away I am from being a good jazz pianist. And the piece that can move in an "L" shape is entitled a night in the game of chess: it is also the only piece that can jump over other pieces in its way to make an "L".. .. but who's correcting.
Fred Hersch is very, very good and I have seen him play in person. I enjoy his way of playing and he is brilliant in what he does. However, it was bold to call block chords "pathetic," or "tragic." The truth is, many great pieces of music used these chords and bring joy to hearts daily. We have become so out of touch in jazz. It has become so intellectual and self-serving. It isn’t a surprise at all that people don’t want to listen to it anymore; it isn’t for them to enjoy.
if you make music for others to enjoy then play what people like. And let others who play music for themselves continue to do so. I am not "out of touch" and neither is just about any jazz musician I know. They are MORE in touch with themselves, their passions, their expression, the choice of colors that they use to represent themselves, etc. Miles wasn't playing for the audience. He'd turn his back on the crowd. So how have we "become" intellectual and self serving? Miles believed that we played music for ourselves in the 50s. The music for the audience was glen miller and dance bands. Ever since parker began playing bebop the music was played for the artists and if people liked it, that was a bonus. The reason why people don't listen anymore is because it stopped moving forward and people still sound like the shit from the 50s. Because it sounds old, not that it got hard.
Fred Hersch's teaching here is about musicianship, not obscurity or self-absorption. In context: it is common for inexperienced musicians learning tunes to think of harmonies just vertically, and work from root-position closed chords stacked in thirds, without attention to voice-leading. That sound has pretty extreme limitations and becomes rudimentary and unexpressive after more than one in a row. He is turning the view sideways here to the 'horizontal' view of voice-leading along with sonority. Good musicianship is about expression and fluency: tension/resolution in rhythm playing, sonority, and voice leading are roads to enjoying a story line, and that is what Fred's message is about. If that is "out of touch," I want to be out of touch. (Said with a smile.) It is not that Fred states that a closed voicing never has a place. But--since he mentions Beethoven--even Beethoven's famous C-minor sonata ("Pathetique") opening departs immediately from the closed sound, and most importantly there is great voice-leading in each chord tone. In another context, Shearing's closed voicings have a certain sonority (orchestration) and rhythmic interest and good voice-leading that serve his message so well. No good pianist strings together stacked-third, root-position chords with willy-nilly doubling and no particular voice-leading. Fred is encouraging us to dig deeper musically ("I had to think for a minute"), and to enable deeper expression. Also the perception of Miles playing for himself in another comment is contrary to what he himself expressed, and since he is one of the most widely-admired artists among non-musicians, it seems a bit nonsensical. The thing of facing the band, according to Miles himself, was akin to a conductor facing an orchestra. The criticism of a musician being too absorbed in playing only for their own amusement is very good to keep in mind, but these are certainly not examples, and the reactions of audiences to Fred's music and to Miles' are the proof--in my opinion. Maybe my use of too many words here is a better example of your critique!
@@markpatterson8922 if that’s what you think of miles then sadly you don’t know him well enough. his autobiography and other sources say that it was about his back to the audience. you maybe found one source where he describes it with an analogy or it could be another reason. it has nothing to do with how widely recognized he is. he didn’t plan on it. he made it clear he played for himself in any way possible and said it outright in his book for like the entire thing. He sometimes wouldn’t even speak to the audience at all, and a couple times didn’t even stop the band between songs, and according to him it was because he didn’t want to talk to the audience, and wanted to focus on being a part of the music. Anytime he was asked for a song request he always denied them. most of the time he told them he “already played it” or he “didn’t feel like it.”
@@Cartmanisntfat1 ha, I never knew Miles personally at all (and heard him live just once). Herbie did, and that is what he says, and those were Miles' own words too. Maybe it was a complicated issue, and we are talking about facets of the same stone. But anyways, re your perception of jazz musicians' awareness--yes, and I think Miles was at or near the top of that. And that artistic self-honesty--including what you describe about his process--is what people perceive as meaningful (and it is not self-indulgence, and it is the opposite of trying to prove something). In that sense he was very aware of connecting (also as reported by Herbie). In relation to this discussion, that blank honesty is shared by Fred, and so I think his teaching words about musicianship carry a lot of weight.
It's totally fair to say the chord is pathetic, if you explain why you think so (harmonic series) and offer an alternative (re-voicing the chord to decongest it). Brilliant tutorial.
The 3rd worst voicing Fred Hersch showed is actually the left hand chord chosen by Claus Ogerman in the opening of the 2nd movement of Symbiosis, played by Bill Evans. The right hand he plays a flat 9 interval F# and G), and the left hand a straight em7 ( E G B D). So, a chord ( voicing) in itself is not pathetic. It may sound very musically weak in certain contexts.
Very useful information when thinking about multiple voices across the fingers. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on voice leading, if that get's shared. Thanks.
Beethoven sonatas are full of those crappy chords....it depends on which context you put those crappy chords. Chords alone don't have a lot of significance. See the Adagio ma non troppo from sonata 110 .... according to Mr. Hersch would be a crappy piece of music.
@@pascalcampanelli4759 Dude, Mr. Hersch and myself are very specifically talking about JAZZ (not New Orleans style, not dixie etc.,but modern jazz styles from the 1940s on) voicings. If you don't have a clue about modern jazz, please refrain from trying to be a know-it-all. Thanks.
Tetrad chords arranged in successive thirds always sounded horrible to me. Years ago, when I saw this Allan's video, I was relieved to know that I wasn't the only one. (minute 0:11) th-cam.com/video/OaJvdWVT13k/w-d-xo.html I just watched this very interesting video by Fred Hersch and... What a joy! There are already three of us!😅🤣 (minute 3:55)
i mean cluster voicings have their own charm and bitterness, but thats usually reserved to different voicings and color tones entirely. i love sprinkling in tetrachords to contrast more open voicings, they taste like arugula leaves
@@Zacharysandilands Yeah closed root position 7th chords r just gross, can be passable w omit 5th. but he said generally, close intervals on piano dont sound that good which is just wrong. Tastefully applying dissonance to otherwise open voicings with major and minor seconds is part of what makes jazz harmony so amazing. I still think the best way to voice a maj7 is with the 7th a minor second below the root. Adds really beautiful color
@@LeafGreen906 yeah of course theres no doubt about it. Theres that Wayne shorter tune fall that does that, playing a Cmaj with B in the root and its l u s h as hell. th-cam.com/video/BmWX1erp_u4/w-d-xo.html
I'm pretty sure the 4:50 is wrong - you wouldn't be able to hear anything from octave 5 or 6 because by that octave a lower note has dozens of overtones, and, according to many sources, physical instruments can only be relied upon to represent five or six of them tops. The rest will not be in tune with ET notes. Only synths do that, but even then you are dealing with dozens of harmonics so close together that I doubt you can hear a distinct pitch. Would love feedback from someone with a perfect pitch on this. I'm basing my comment on 20th Century Harmony book, by Vincent Persichetti p 24.
Very informative video. Appreciate the content! That said....I think it's important to clarify that, uhhhh, how to phrase this... He described some chords as crappy and pathetic. Let me clarify something: I don't even know what contrapuntal playing is. I clicked this video to find out. I 100% acknowledge that he may be speaking to a very specific audience. But to any other "amateur" pianists/composers/etc: there's no such thing as a "worst", "pathetic" or "crappy" chord. It 100% depends on the type of music you're playing. Personally, I thought the "worst" chord he played was quite nice.
This is a nice way to play, but I don't think it's good counterpoint advice. If you label certain voicings (the closed position voicings) as bad, you're only limiting your options. The goal of counterpoint should be to create independent voices, but if the voices are always a similar distance from each other, they will have too much influence over each other. The bias against closed voicings comes from inexperienced players who only use closed position voicings, but they aren't inherently wrong. Try looking for closed position voicings in JS Bach's WTC or the Chorales. It won't take long. As for never doubling notes, I can see how this is useful in improvisation because octaves require careful treatment to avoid parallel octaves, which hurts independence. Passing through an octave is very useful in contrapuntal writing. The best rule would be to not double a note in the same voices. A sensible compromise for the ease of improvisation would be to not double a note in consecutive chords. I would be surprised if you could find a single piece in the WTC or a chorale that doesn't have a voicing with a doubled note.
Jazz and its voicings are a product of the 20th century, as well as its aesthetics unrelated to the aesthetics of the Baroque period. This refers to the rule of avoiding parallel octaves and fifths, which makes no sense where the roots of voice movement are African heterophony; this also applies to an increased degree of dissonance, and to avoid doubling the pitch in the bass. So, don't let the academic term "Counterpoint" confuse you., for Fred it is not based on the rules of strict counterpoint. My view of the seventh chords is entirely consistent with his:: If for classical harmony they require resolution into less dissonant triads, then for jazz they are not dissonant enough, and they definitely require additional non-chord notes, in accordance with the acoustic properties.
@@jazzman1945ify He is also referring to how these basic chords sound on the instrument in a solo piano setting. He prefers other voicings for this context.
That’s not the rook he’s talking about that’s the knight. The rook can move vertically and horizontally across the board. Sorry for being a smart a** but just had to point that out
Oh man I get what he's saying but those closed voicings have got a real place in music and can sound so beautiful. Take this song for example th-cam.com/video/zNd4apsr3WE/w-d-xo.html
@David Harper Yes those closed closed voicing chords have a place in popular music in rock music and in blues music but they're frowned upon in traditional jazz music. The open chords to me reduces the power of a close voicing chord but bring on as he says more pleasant overtones. Chess instruction books I've read said that the first tone to leave out if you can't do four voices is the "5th". The same books also said that the most important choices are the 3rd and 7th.
He is right, but his way of saying is not very pedagogical. He could say something like this: "Hey, this chord is ok, but look at this one - it sounds even more interesting".
honestly, is playing is Ok and feels a little robotic. Someone may love it and that is just a different taste. He calls simple chords crappy and misses the whole point of music . . . relating everything entirely to the limitations of piano tuning with the overtone series. Like none of those issues are present on an electric piano or in the digital realm. None of the issues of dense voicings exist in a 4 part arrangement for voice. It takes technical understanding to know where his advice goes wrong: music is like cooking, its about the flavors and the contrast. To call a simple and dense voicing crappy is just being overly elitist and trying to worship the overtone series. It is precisely the sourness and harmonic contrast that can be developed with dense voicing that gives jazz and blues their feel. Painters often use grey and muted tones to give more life to the brights in a painting. Similarly, a master of the musical range understands that every chord has its place. I think he plays too mentally, even for an exercise and I can hear how his own limited perspective is limiting his musicality in this recording. It is a fact that doubling the notes increases volume due to the interactions of the waves . . . stating otherwise is wandering into a personal musical mysticism. Even if the octaves are not tuned perfectly, they can sound great, just like 5ths and 4ths, that are also not perfect on a piano. To go online with all the various levels of expertise out there and claim a simple voicing is crappy is not only alienating a large part of the audience, it is just plain foolish advice when it comes to mastering musical concepts. Taking the easy voicing is a great way to nail down a complex chord movement, and a great way to learn quickly. Not everyone is going to be a music professional and talking at the youtube audience as such is a mistake in my opinion. Music is modular, and chords can be swapped out for various effects. The effect or style is contextual: there is no set rule saying what something should sound like, and often those musical moments that catch us by surprise happen when someone is not trying to follow some arbitrary rules. Music is after all, about how it sounds and the listener will generally care very little about the technical underpinnings, being mostly unaware of them altogether.
Respectfully, I disagree. Fred spells it out nicely at 3:31, "This is just what I think..." I like getting a player's opinion on sound, personally. Fred doesn't have to like every sound, and having preference doesn't make him a bad pedagogue, imo. I agree that it's unfortunate that a beginner may take Fred's opinion and take it as a rule, but it's difficult to avoid that without becoming so neutral that your pedagogy is soulless and directionless. "Everything works and you can do anything" is absolutely true, but it's not really a method or a direction that one can teach with.
@@brendanmcgrath4831 And to call Fred's playing "robotic" simply means he's neither heard much of Fred or has never seen him in person. Fred's playing is anything but robotic. Also Fred's tone and touch is quite unlike anyone in jazz.
@@helgar791 I was surprised by that comment I have to admit! Of course Fred in this video is working through some exercises and concepts, not playing as he usually does - although still sounds great
yeah, fred's got a bit of a "this is what I think, take it or leave it" which is true of many fine players and musicians. I don't think he really cares if he turns off some less advanced players. In my experience, the more pedagogically accurate and generous way to put it is :these root position seventh chords can sound static and are a beginners approach to playing. And then give some concepts around alternatives (shell voicings, +2 etc). The only conceptual advice he gives about voicings is how "the piano loves" open fifth voicings because of some booshwah about the overtone series. If that were a guiding principal then orchestrations would also love stacked fifth voicings even more (since the overtone series would be more in tune than on the piano) and that is simply not the case, its just one color. I hopped right on the piano and started working through some movement in the tenor and alto voices, which has become kind of a habit anyway on ballad playing. In the hands of a less skilled player (me), it gets muddy real quick. Obviously Jarrett and Bill Evans had this going on big time. Anyway, huge thanks to Open Studio and Fred for all they are doing to spread the deep knowledge of this music. This kind of knowledge simply wasn't available 25 years ago.
Contrapuntal playing and voicing with Fred Hersch
1. Utilize 4 voicing techniques:
(1) Melody and harmony in RH using 45 finger technique
(2) Alto in RH using 123 finger technique with rhythmic
(3) Bass in LH using 1 finger technique
(4) LH plays notes in the chord but avoid double notes
2. Avoid double notes
3. Do not use basic chords (e.g. LH 17), you should add extensions, voicings, rootless chords, etc.
4. Make sure you know the melody and its harmony using RH 45 finger technique
5. Make sure you know the bass using LH 1 finger technique
6. Maintain voice leading and avoid skipping notes
7. The mindset is to focus on "lots of moving parts"
8. Bass - Tenor - Alto - Soprano
9. In music theory, the tenor voice is louder than the alto voice.
Fred, you're a treasure, a genius and the very best of teachers.
Fred Hersch, one of the greatest jazz pianists of our time.👾
Mr. Fred Hersch you didn't talk about your left hand!!! That's the ultimate secret!!! it sounds so melodic, supportive, and corresponding to right hand at the same time. It will be such an honor to understand what's going on for left hand counter melodies😭
The chorale at the end is so rich and beautiful. I wish it went on much longer! Thank you so much, Fred (and Open Studio!)!
Thank you so much, Fred, for your "Worst Chords I n The World". My hands are small for a pianist--- I have to roll a 9th!--- so spreading chords out between both hands has always been my bread and butter. Your affirmation is music to my ears!
I loved the part at the end in the style of a Bach Chorale.
Now that is a great inspiration: Well explained in 10 minutes, but I will need the rest of my life to make some use of it!
Greatpianist, great musician...I used to hear him regularly at 1 fifth avenue , the knickerbocker saloon and the vanguard in the early eighties- he has done so many amazing things since then....
Thank you Fred! I love the stacked 5th, but it is the stacked 4th that I chose to employ. I love the sound of the 7th on the bottom and the root on the top. Thank you for your work!
Such a cool amalgamation of classical music theory and jazz. Thanks for the inspiration!
The Master at work! 10:40
Yay! What an inspiring video. Thank you. I intuitively tried the not having redundant notes thing on my own but it's good to hear what that can result in with a studious person like you. This is reassuring and I will redouble (!) My efforts now.
"this right here is the worst chord"
*Red Garland has entered the chat*
"Hello there" Chick Corea
The sonic streets you lead my ears down are remarkable. Thank you 🙏.
Great looking library, too!
Wow, Fred is simply a genius.
Freds basic example sounded better than my best attempt at soloing on this song.
Damn!!
He is impressive
Absolutely love this! Thank You!
Great, thanks Mr Hercsh , you are a master
Beautiful
I feel honored that I’m studying under a former student of his! Love his playing
I love doubling and block/dense code but I also love his very rich harmony and logical explanation for it.
Doubling sounds great on electric keyboards and for R&B/Gospel/Contemporary keyboard voicings. This is mainly because keyboards don’t have overtones like acoustic piano. The overtones concept makes doubling not only redundant but results in a limited ability to explore the full harmonic potential of the acoustic piano.
amazing, thank you!🔥
Agree on those ‘worst chords’ haha - masterful lesson!
I dig this... I really really dig this
Bravo 👏 maestro!
Yeah, Fred
The 3rd worst voicing Fred Hersch showed is actually the left hand chord chosen by Claus Ogerman in the opening of the 2nd movement of Symbiosis, played by Bill Evans. The right hand he plays a flat 9 interval F# and G), and the left hand a straight em7 ( E G B D). So, a chord ( voicing) in itself is not pathetic. It may sound very musically weak in certain contexts.
does he really double the g? i couldn’t hear the g in the left hand when i listened
@@user-dn8zv9gj1yplay the chord I've laid out in the comment and you'll see that a chord in itself is never pathetic. Context is everything. It may be a rare event but the pathetic chord will show up with all its beauty at some point.
Thank you man!!!!
Wonderful
Thank you sir 🙏🏼
I'm so glad that TH-cam suggested your video it was so enlightening to me and I'm so grateful to you.
The video also shows how I was under estimating how far away I am from being a good jazz pianist.
And the piece that can move in an "L" shape is entitled a night in the game of chess: it is also the only piece that can jump over other pieces in its way to make an "L".. .. but who's correcting.
Ευχαριστούμε!
Ye gods that’s stunning
Fred Hersch is very, very good and I have seen him play in person. I enjoy his way of playing and he is brilliant in what he does. However, it was bold to call block chords "pathetic," or "tragic." The truth is, many great pieces of music used these chords and bring joy to hearts daily. We have become so out of touch in jazz. It has become so intellectual and self-serving. It isn’t a surprise at all that people don’t want to listen to it anymore; it isn’t for them to enjoy.
if you make music for others to enjoy then play what people like. And let others who play music for themselves continue to do so. I am not "out of touch" and neither is just about any jazz musician I know. They are MORE in touch with themselves, their passions, their expression, the choice of colors that they use to represent themselves, etc. Miles wasn't playing for the audience. He'd turn his back on the crowd. So how have we "become" intellectual and self serving? Miles believed that we played music for ourselves in the 50s. The music for the audience was glen miller and dance bands. Ever since parker began playing bebop the music was played for the artists and if people liked it, that was a bonus. The reason why people don't listen anymore is because it stopped moving forward and people still sound like the shit from the 50s. Because it sounds old, not that it got hard.
Fred Hersch's teaching here is about musicianship, not obscurity or self-absorption. In context: it is common for inexperienced musicians learning tunes to think of harmonies just vertically, and work from root-position closed chords stacked in thirds, without attention to voice-leading. That sound has pretty extreme limitations and becomes rudimentary and unexpressive after more than one in a row. He is turning the view sideways here to the 'horizontal' view of voice-leading along with sonority.
Good musicianship is about expression and fluency: tension/resolution in rhythm playing, sonority, and voice leading are roads to enjoying a story line, and that is what Fred's message is about. If that is "out of touch," I want to be out of touch. (Said with a smile.)
It is not that Fred states that a closed voicing never has a place. But--since he mentions Beethoven--even Beethoven's famous C-minor sonata ("Pathetique") opening departs immediately from the closed sound, and most importantly there is great voice-leading in each chord tone. In another context, Shearing's closed voicings have a certain sonority (orchestration) and rhythmic interest and good voice-leading that serve his message so well. No good pianist strings together stacked-third, root-position chords with willy-nilly doubling and no particular voice-leading. Fred is encouraging us to dig deeper musically ("I had to think for a minute"), and to enable deeper expression.
Also the perception of Miles playing for himself in another comment is contrary to what he himself expressed, and since he is one of the most widely-admired artists among non-musicians, it seems a bit nonsensical. The thing of facing the band, according to Miles himself, was akin to a conductor facing an orchestra.
The criticism of a musician being too absorbed in playing only for their own amusement is very good to keep in mind, but these are certainly not examples, and the reactions of audiences to Fred's music and to Miles' are the proof--in my opinion. Maybe my use of too many words here is a better example of your critique!
@@markpatterson8922 if that’s what you think of miles then sadly you don’t know him well enough. his autobiography and other sources say that it was about his back to the audience. you maybe found one source where he describes it with an analogy or it could be another reason. it has nothing to do with how widely recognized he is. he didn’t plan on it. he made it clear he played for himself in any way possible and said it outright in his book for like the entire thing. He sometimes wouldn’t even speak to the audience at all, and a couple times didn’t even stop the band between songs, and according to him it was because he didn’t want to talk to the audience, and wanted to focus on being a part of the music. Anytime he was asked for a song request he always denied them. most of the time he told them he “already played it” or he “didn’t feel like it.”
@@Cartmanisntfat1 ha, I never knew Miles personally at all (and heard him live just once). Herbie did, and that is what he says, and those were Miles' own words too. Maybe it was a complicated issue, and we are talking about facets of the same stone.
But anyways, re your perception of jazz musicians' awareness--yes, and I think Miles was at or near the top of that. And that artistic self-honesty--including what you describe about his process--is what people perceive as meaningful (and it is not self-indulgence, and it is the opposite of trying to prove something). In that sense he was very aware of connecting (also as reported by Herbie). In relation to this discussion, that blank honesty is shared by Fred, and so I think his teaching words about musicianship carry a lot of weight.
Monk was doing some of the things he talked about on his solo piano. Nobody is out of touch!
😮😮😮😮fantastic
Amazing! Thank You!
I’ve been wearing out Fred’s album Everybody’s Song But My Own on Qobuz. Fantastic masterclass there and here, thx. 👍
Wonderful ideas ☺️
Man, 9:50 out. Just exquisite.
It's totally fair to say the chord is pathetic, if you explain why you think so (harmonic series) and offer an alternative (re-voicing the chord to decongest it). Brilliant tutorial.
The 3rd worst voicing Fred Hersch showed is actually the left hand chord chosen by Claus Ogerman in the opening of the 2nd movement of Symbiosis, played by Bill Evans. The right hand he plays a flat 9 interval F# and G), and the left hand a straight em7 ( E G B D). So, a chord ( voicing) in itself is not pathetic. It may sound very musically weak in certain contexts.
@@Beyondabsence 100% agree, it depends on context.
@@FrantzesElzaurdia Absolutely.
@@FrantzesElzaurdia You should hear how gorgeous this first chord voicing in Symbiosis sounds...
Very useful information when thinking about multiple voices across the fingers. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on voice leading, if that get's shared. Thanks.
@5:38 Dang, someone should have warned Bill Evans about those chords with small intervals.
Thank a lot! Is it possible to purchase pdf files of the lecture?
Finally I can officially say to my students that the 1-3-5-7 voicing is pathetic and crappy - if they object I can give them the link to this video! 😎
🤣
Beethoven sonatas are full of those crappy chords....it depends on which context you put those crappy chords. Chords alone don't have a lot of significance. See the Adagio ma non troppo from sonata 110 .... according to Mr. Hersch would be a crappy piece of music.
@@pascalcampanelli4759 Dude, Mr. Hersch and myself are very specifically talking about JAZZ (not New Orleans style, not dixie etc.,but modern jazz styles from the 1940s on) voicings. If you don't have a clue about modern jazz, please refrain from trying to be a know-it-all. Thanks.
@@christophmunch4796 Dude, I was writing about MUSIC.
@@christophmunch4796 why you take it personally? I didn't offend anyone. I was just explaining my point of view.
*Plays C7 root position voicing* That's tragic. 🤣 Great video from Mr. Hersch!
Tremendous
MASTER
Bach approves. 😉
can we get a transcription of the last part?
ha! the tragic chords .. completely agree ha!
Tetrad chords arranged in successive thirds always sounded horrible to me. Years ago, when I saw this Allan's video, I was relieved to know that I wasn't the only one. (minute 0:11)
th-cam.com/video/OaJvdWVT13k/w-d-xo.html
I just watched this very interesting video by Fred Hersch and... What a joy! There are already three of us!😅🤣
(minute 3:55)
Play from where you are...yes. But now, how do I get to where I'm going??? Answer? Practice. 4 notes at a time. Thank you for the post.
i mean cluster voicings have their own charm and bitterness, but thats usually reserved to different voicings and color tones entirely. i love sprinkling in tetrachords to contrast more open voicings, they taste like arugula leaves
cluster chords can work but definitely note those 'weak' voicings that he demonstrated. Particularly in solo piano context
@@Zacharysandilands Yeah closed root position 7th chords r just gross, can be passable w omit 5th. but he said generally, close intervals on piano dont sound that good which is just wrong. Tastefully applying dissonance to otherwise open voicings with major and minor seconds is part of what makes jazz harmony so amazing. I still think the best way to voice a maj7 is with the 7th a minor second below the root. Adds really beautiful color
@@LeafGreen906 yeah of course theres no doubt about it. Theres that Wayne shorter tune fall that does that, playing a Cmaj with B in the root and its l u s h as hell. th-cam.com/video/BmWX1erp_u4/w-d-xo.html
I'm pretty sure the 4:50 is wrong - you wouldn't be able to hear anything from octave 5 or 6 because by that octave a lower note has dozens of overtones, and, according to many sources, physical instruments can only be relied upon to represent five or six of them tops. The rest will not be in tune with ET notes. Only synths do that, but even then you are dealing with dozens of harmonics so close together that I doubt you can hear a distinct pitch. Would love feedback from someone with a perfect pitch on this. I'm basing my comment on 20th Century Harmony book, by Vincent Persichetti p 24.
Very informative video. Appreciate the content!
That said....I think it's important to clarify that, uhhhh, how to phrase this...
He described some chords as crappy and pathetic.
Let me clarify something: I don't even know what contrapuntal playing is. I clicked this video to find out. I 100% acknowledge that he may be speaking to a very specific audience.
But to any other "amateur" pianists/composers/etc:
there's no such thing as a "worst", "pathetic" or "crappy" chord.
It 100% depends on the type of music you're playing.
Personally, I thought the "worst" chord he played was quite nice.
One question.... With the half step whole step exercise, is he thinking abt the harmony of the song? How is he choosing his bass notes?
yes, hes following the harmony of the song. But the bass notes dont always have to be the roots.
If I only I could reach a 10th!
10:07 you doubled Gb (the b9 of F7) but keep playing cause I think you have some talent :)
I really tried hard to ignore this comment 😂😂😁😊
Haha
King, but I'm gonna play a root position maj7 if I want hahaha point taken tho
👌
9:45
This is a nice way to play, but I don't think it's good counterpoint advice. If you label certain voicings (the closed position voicings) as bad, you're only limiting your options. The goal of counterpoint should be to create independent voices, but if the voices are always a similar distance from each other, they will have too much influence over each other. The bias against closed voicings comes from inexperienced players who only use closed position voicings, but they aren't inherently wrong. Try looking for closed position voicings in JS Bach's WTC or the Chorales. It won't take long.
As for never doubling notes, I can see how this is useful in improvisation because octaves require careful treatment to avoid parallel octaves, which hurts independence. Passing through an octave is very useful in contrapuntal writing. The best rule would be to not double a note in the same voices. A sensible compromise for the ease of improvisation would be to not double a note in consecutive chords. I would be surprised if you could find a single piece in the WTC or a chorale that doesn't have a voicing with a doubled note.
Jazz and its voicings are a product of the 20th century, as well as its aesthetics unrelated to the aesthetics of the Baroque period. This refers to the rule of avoiding parallel octaves and fifths, which makes no sense where the roots of voice movement are African heterophony; this also applies to an increased degree of dissonance, and to avoid doubling the pitch in the bass. So, don't let the academic term "Counterpoint" confuse you., for Fred it is not based on the rules of strict counterpoint.
My view of the seventh chords is entirely consistent with his:: If for classical harmony they require resolution into less dissonant triads, then for jazz they are not dissonant enough, and they definitely require additional non-chord notes, in accordance with the acoustic properties.
@@jazzman1945ify He is also referring to how these basic chords sound on the instrument in a solo piano setting. He prefers other voicings for this context.
@@akselfjaera This is the typical jazz sound of the Bebop era and beyond. CEGB sounds too flat, CEGBb sounds too weak, weaker than the previous chord.
But you need to know these basic chords right? No wonder my playing sounds so dull 😅
Fred plays 6 or more voices and then says "if we are playing 4 voices..." XD
That’s not the rook he’s talking about that’s the knight. The rook can move vertically and horizontally across the board. Sorry for being a smart a** but just had to point that out
Oh man I get what he's saying but those closed voicings have got a real place in music and can sound so beautiful. Take this song for example th-cam.com/video/zNd4apsr3WE/w-d-xo.html
@David Harper
Yes those closed closed voicing chords have a place in popular music in rock music and in blues music but they're frowned upon in traditional jazz music.
The open chords to me reduces the power of a close voicing chord but bring on as he says more pleasant overtones.
Chess instruction books I've read said that the first tone to leave out if you can't do four voices is the "5th". The same books also said that the most important choices are the 3rd and 7th.
Barry Harris entered the chat
He is right, but his way of saying is not very pedagogical. He could say something like this: "Hey, this chord is ok, but look at this one - it sounds even more interesting".
Not every great player is a great teacher.
You said what others were saying in 15 words instead of 500 !
@@PlayBetterJazzFred Hersch is one of the great teachers and performers of jazz. He's taught countless jazz musicians including Brad Mehldau!
honestly, is playing is Ok and feels a little robotic. Someone may love it and that is just a different taste. He calls simple chords crappy and misses the whole point of music . . . relating everything entirely to the limitations of piano tuning with the overtone series. Like none of those issues are present on an electric piano or in the digital realm. None of the issues of dense voicings exist in a 4 part arrangement for voice. It takes technical understanding to know where his advice goes wrong: music is like cooking, its about the flavors and the contrast. To call a simple and dense voicing crappy is just being overly elitist and trying to worship the overtone series. It is precisely the sourness and harmonic contrast that can be developed with dense voicing that gives jazz and blues their feel. Painters often use grey and muted tones to give more life to the brights in a painting. Similarly, a master of the musical range understands that every chord has its place. I think he plays too mentally, even for an exercise and I can hear how his own limited perspective is limiting his musicality in this recording. It is a fact that doubling the notes increases volume due to the interactions of the waves . . . stating otherwise is wandering into a personal musical mysticism. Even if the octaves are not tuned perfectly, they can sound great, just like 5ths and 4ths, that are also not perfect on a piano.
To go online with all the various levels of expertise out there and claim a simple voicing is crappy is not only alienating a large part of the audience, it is just plain foolish advice when it comes to mastering musical concepts. Taking the easy voicing is a great way to nail down a complex chord movement, and a great way to learn quickly. Not everyone is going to be a music professional and talking at the youtube audience as such is a mistake in my opinion. Music is modular, and chords can be swapped out for various effects. The effect or style is contextual: there is no set rule saying what something should sound like, and often those musical moments that catch us by surprise happen when someone is not trying to follow some arbitrary rules. Music is after all, about how it sounds and the listener will generally care very little about the technical underpinnings, being mostly unaware of them altogether.
Thumbs up x100
Respectfully, I disagree. Fred spells it out nicely at 3:31, "This is just what I think..."
I like getting a player's opinion on sound, personally. Fred doesn't have to like every sound, and having preference doesn't make him a bad pedagogue, imo.
I agree that it's unfortunate that a beginner may take Fred's opinion and take it as a rule, but it's difficult to avoid that without becoming so neutral that your pedagogy is soulless and directionless. "Everything works and you can do anything" is absolutely true, but it's not really a method or a direction that one can teach with.
@@brendanmcgrath4831 And to call Fred's playing "robotic" simply means he's neither heard much of Fred or has never seen him in person. Fred's playing is anything but robotic. Also Fred's tone and touch is quite unlike anyone in jazz.
@@helgar791 I was surprised by that comment I have to admit! Of course Fred in this video is working through some exercises and concepts, not playing as he usually does - although still sounds great
yeah, fred's got a bit of a "this is what I think, take it or leave it" which is true of many fine players and musicians. I don't think he really cares if he turns off some less advanced players. In my experience, the more pedagogically accurate and generous way to put it is :these root position seventh chords can sound static and are a beginners approach to playing. And then give some concepts around alternatives (shell voicings, +2 etc). The only conceptual advice he gives about voicings is how "the piano loves" open fifth voicings because of some booshwah about the overtone series. If that were a guiding principal then orchestrations would also love stacked fifth voicings even more (since the overtone series would be more in tune than on the piano) and that is simply not the case, its just one color.
I hopped right on the piano and started working through some movement in the tenor and alto voices, which has become kind of a habit anyway on ballad playing. In the hands of a less skilled player (me), it gets muddy real quick. Obviously Jarrett and Bill Evans had this going on big time.
Anyway, huge thanks to Open Studio and Fred for all they are doing to spread the deep knowledge of this music. This kind of knowledge simply wasn't available 25 years ago.