Why does the Waldorf M cost so much more than the Blofeld
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 พ.ค. 2024
- One's pure luxury and the other hits the budget end of the market. Both built on PPG foundations, with the same classic wavetables. BUT... what's the difference in reality? You can read all the stats you like but how do they sound?
/ starskycarr
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► Clubbing TV From the Studio:
• From The Studio
0:00 Sound Demo #1 Why compare?
1:58 Let the Games Begin
3:55 A Wavetable Wave
4:37 A Virtual Analog Sq Wave
5:46 The ASIC Bug
7:15 And What about the FILTER
10:45 Matching a Pad
14:27 Sound Comparisons
20:01 Blofeld Sounds Only
24:24 M Sounds Only
#waldorf #m #blofeld - เพลง
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Hi guys,
as a developer, I would like to say one simple thing, which everybody forgets in that sort of price discussion.
The 8 encoders vs 41 different controls (encoders & pots). There is simple "cumulative" price rocket due to the costs of components, so it's a bit unfair to compare them.
Much more close compare of Iridium and M - and they are as close in price as in controls.
Theoretically it's possible to take the voice expansion of the M (as it is actually are synth "per ce") and install it into Blofeld-style case with simplified controls to get the same sound as big M from that significantly cheaper synth. The only drawback is realtime controls for most important sound parameters. And, perhaps the part outputs should be discarded / changed to 3.5 inch jacks due to geometry.
But the M was designed minding the live performance needs to - hence it has reach control panel.
Greetings from Remagen
Vladi
p.s. Starsky Carr, thank you for the brilliant job you did!
Thanks for your insight Vlad. I did this as lots of folks asked, but I don’t think the answers were a big surprise.
You don’t fancy sending me another 8 voices do you 😂?
@@StarskyCarr we can organize this through Waldorf I believe, why not?
Hey Vladimir. Out of interest: Is your collaboration with Waldorf on the M synth a one time thing, or are you involved in future project of Waldorf as well?
Not so sure about the 3.5mm sockets Vlad. Personally, I avoid any gear that's more than a couple of hundred quid that uses 3.5mm jacks. They're not mechanically robust long term, and are really designed for small portable devices such as mobiles and MP3 players, that no one expects to last for 20-30 years. I think it would be a very retrograde step for Waldorf to use them in their products.
41 bourns or alps encoders bulk for waldorf would cost £20. Which doesn't dent the price. The blofeld is just unusually too
While reading the comments… every time I look up to see what that great sound is coming from; it’s the blofeld. Masterpiece. I love it’s low fi grunge… it’s smoothness… and it’s endless complexity…!
Actualy you can get 3 Blofelds for the price of an M.
3 x 549€ or 1 x 1688€ (Thomann prices today)
I let you do the maths about which could be the best regarding the polyphony, the separate outputs and other parameters, like the sound quality, filters, the additionnal parameters, etc etc... Personnaly I would say it's not so easy.
You're saving me from spending my money, thank you Sir! I have the Blofeld keyboard (white) and wanted to get the M in the near future, I saw a used one for about $1, 800, figured I sell the Blofeld for about $700 and try to the M down to $1, 000. I really didn't much researched other then, that's an Analog/Digital wavetable hybrid with more knobs, which now that you put this in perspective, why should I waste $1,000. Thanks again and keep up the great work.
I love my Waldorf M. What a hell of a synth it is ❤
I much preferred the Blofeld, almost every time. Never really fancied either so I’ve zero bias.
Thanks for the comprehensive review!
One of the best synthesizer reviews I've seen this year:)! Thank you...
Loved the Blofeld (sold mine years ago, they have some quality issues), but the M is a truly exceptional synth, beautiful stereo field too, fizzing in high end, great Mood basses too, warm filters. You will want to pair it with some good effects however.
Price-wise I saw the M as a poor man’s 3rd Wave 🤣
The Blofeld has a lot of quirks when you push it's limits, it has a bit of a personality for a digital synth that more perfect VSTs (and the M) don't have.
I appreciate the M's perfection but I'm in love with the Blofeld's flaws, I prefer how the Blofeld sounded when it failed to match the M.
Right! There was something magical about that filter resonance. That little extra movement made some patches sound more alive on the blofeld that it actually made me think the M sounded a bit boring.
I was in the market for a Microvave 1 and had secured a purchase. Then I saw this at the last second - it had just come out. I’m getting the voice expansion because I was in the UK living in 2001. The XT’s were going for bargain basement prices. I see the XT’s today with voice expansions are well sort after. I declined the XT - something I’d later regretted. It seems fitting to load it up. The M is a peer into the past and I have a Blofeld keyboard which is current enough.
Great comparison - thanks!! I am lucky to have blofeld on my side - he punches way above his weight category. The M is fantastic - might have to break the piggy bank one day.
The Blofeld sounds fantastic. Had it a few days here, but, the differences in sound to the Largo VST which I also own are really minimal, and I found the in-the-box handling of Largo much easier, so I sent the Blofeld back.
@@chakko007 I agree that the blofeld is difficult to program, especially when the encoder knobs go flakey now and then. I really love its sound potential, so I try to be patient while setting up my sounds. It would be cool to have an up to date librarian for it sitting on my screen!!!
No user wavetable import with Largo so quite limited compared to the Blofeld.
In your chapter called "The ASIC Bug," you tested the Blofeld's "Overflow" feature. When you turned it up, it produced broken sounding clicks and screeches. I couldn't help but notice that when you next tested the resonant filter sweep on the Blofeld, it produced very similar nasty sounds. Is there a chance you left the "Overflow" feature on? I can't remember hearing Blofeld filter sweeps ever sound like that normally.
I don’t think so but you never know! I do know however that before I did the demo it was doing the same - before I used the overflow.. which is what tipped me over the edge to make the video. I think it’s just because I’m doing stuff that isn’t normal Blofeld territory. But I guess I’ll have to check at some point!
I had the same thought. I was like, "I wish I could get my Blofeld filter to sound all glitchy and nasty like that." Now I've got to try this. 👍 One of the main downsides for me about the Blofeld is that it's so easy to make it sound good that I neglect many of the deeper functions.
Mucho respect to the Blofeld (i have one btw).. under used i have to say here right now.
They have different architectures and interfaces. I’m glad both options are available. Waldorf do a good job at covering multiple price points-especially for a small/medium-sized company that doesn’t have its own hardware manufacturing city.
The Blofeld is a superb synth, so powerful and great sounding, but I guess you can't compare it to an M as the price range is completely different. Blofeld is a great entry synth for most budgets, and you can get them super cheap second hand. I've got two of them, super powerful kinda virtual modular with its enormous routing and modulation capabilities, I love it, and it is super straightforward to program. I actually love using them as a drum synth too on its multimode, and the possibility of loading samples also is great too ;)
I think for the price the Blofeld holds it own very well. Just bought the sample option - on sale at the mo for €29
@@StarskyCarr I just also bought it for the second one too last week ;)
@@aki_gong6271 99 is a ridiculous amount to ask for the sample option considering all they do is unlock the functionality. I might wait for the next sale though.
I like the M for some sounds and the Blofeld for others. Great synths both. Blofeld has such a nice vibe to it. Great sounding almost grimey, slightly darker low-fi digital. Can be bright too though. @20:00 that pad is heaven:). The M really surprised me. I do find modules really tough to work with from an ergonomics standpoint however.
Waldorf + Virus + Elektron a match made for power music.
Nice Video. I love Waldorf :)
Everyone refers to the Blofeld as having 25 voices, or about 25, but that's only true if you avoid the wavetables and processor-intensive filters. With two different wavetables on two oscillators and one comb filter, mine drops to only 3 voices. I love its sound, but I ended up getting an Iridium instead.
Well the iridium is another matter 😂 I’d have put them together but I bought the M instead. Iridium is fan, and I LOVE the keyboard version.
Thanks for this. I have an Elektron A4 so maybe I get a Blofeld, use a software editor and the A4 filters? Thoughts?
Blofeld wins for me, lol. Great video, thank you for helping me deci
its funny how we comment on the price of items, and then want them for little of nothing. Yes they both have wavetables, but the M is miles ahead of the Blofield. The character up to certain point is similar, and that's going to be the same across any synths that use WaveTables. I have the Iridium and the M, and let me tell you...they really don't sound the same overall. The iridium does plenty of things the M can't. Now the M just has a total different tone overall. I love my M, and thought about taking it back before I got it home. Now I can't dream of getting rid of either. If you can get one...get it and be happy. If you can't... don't drool over something else because you think it's going to sound better because of the price. You will be disappointed. It doesn't matter which one you choose. Hats off to Waldorf...they make wonderful devices. Thanks Starsky again.
Blofeld's polyphony can drop way down depending on types of oscillators and filters etc. The PPG filter in particular is quite hungry IIRC. Still amazing synth really. That one is behaving a bit weird, not sure all that digital clipping is normal.
Waldorf M is a very powerful hybrid, with 4 audio outputs dedicated to its parts, there are 4 M synths in one box, and the 4 analog circuits are very expensive with today's inflation.
Imagine making 4 identical synthesizers and putting them in a box similar to the one an NI+ maschine has, well this is the Waldorf M and for that you have to invest a lot of money in research and development, to then make thousands of them.
Yes, it is normal that it is more expensive, although Blofeld is the most interesting digital beast along with Access Virus.
Waldorf Blofeld is also compatible with korg triton sampler and is dual user sample player with SL license, this makes it quite exclusive and has module and keyboard versions, while this waldorf M only has module version.
I like blofeld better, because it has more synthesis power, and just being able to modulate 2 samples in monotimbral mode is powerful. Using 4 parts you could modulate 8 samples in multi sample mode.
I have tried this and the result is really incredible and quite stable for the very hidden DSP it has.
From what you played, M sounds a bit more complex comparing with the "same" sounds on Bloefeld. But the price difference and polyphony counst a lot too.
Hi, One thing I wondered. Did you use the brightness setting on the oscs of the Blofeld? This introduces more aliasing, bit also more gritt to the sound.
Not when demoing aliasing (at least as far as I can remember). I did have a play with it knowing that was the case.
The Waldorf M must be played to be believed. And I believe it's one of the best synthesizers I've ever had.
I love mine so much
@@supercompooper Mr Salnikov is a genius!
@@theendofeternity4324 who is Mr Salnikov?
@@supercompooper Vladimir Salnikov is sometimes called the "Waldorf´s DSP guru" and the brain behind the operating system of the "M".
I believe Blofeld too is the best synth ever made
The M claims to be 4-part multi timbral with only 8 voices. I don’t know why Waldorf has become so stingy with its voices. There’s the same limitation on their flagship Quantum.
Meanwhile, this fifteen year old little beast Blofeld sounds great and has 25 voices! Amazing
Cost I suspect. Each voice requires an analog filter. I’m
Hoping to get the 8 voice expansion at some point but as you say 💰💰
@09:09 Maybe choose another Drive Curve. Even if "Drive" is on "0" doesn't mean there is no saturation or overdrive going on
I have both the desktop version and the keyboard version. WHY CAN'T I POLY-CHAIN THEM?😩
i would ahve bought the m, but the pricetag is even out of the installment plans i get offered. its simple as that. and saving money to get it one day is simply no option. it just means 2-3 years of having nothing, instead of lower pricetag synths^^. so yes the blofeld is it in that category^^
Can't wait until my M arrives in a week or two.
Friend you are going to love it. don't forget to read the manual. You're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't. Happy Knob turning!
Absolutely… loads of stuff in there to get the most from it. I made a walkthrough/demo when I got mine a couple of years ago that may be of some help to get you started.
@@StarskyCarr thanks, will check it out. In fact I always wanted a Microwave - but MkI prices were insane for a while, however a modern Microwave with a ladder filter from PPG Wave, 4 parts multitimbral with an option to expand to 16 voices and a usable interface?
Sold.
Do you still have the Iridium Keyboard?
hey, i saw your numomo qun review and just wanted to let you know the released mk 2, i would love to hear your opinions. i already got one and i really like it so far
I've got one here and spent a couple of days prepping a review, but just didn't have the time to record anything in the end. I took too long trying to figure out what new functions I could demo and how to demo it effectively. These things take ages tbh and sometimes I just have to move onto getting paid!
The pricetag still seems too high for the M. It should be similar to the Novation Peak or Hydrasynth desktop. The analog filter doesnt justify the cost. $2100.00 is just too much for what it is.
Quite agree. I couldn't justify it already owning a Blofeld, just TOO costly for its spec.
The Novation Peak is a much, much more capable synth at 75% of the price and with excellent build quality and support.
I did however go for the Iridium instead, which is a marvellous synth, so no regrets. 🙂
Yeah and I’d much rather have the blofield for it’s form factor both lovely synths though
The Blofeld is great, and the M is otherworldly.
that's why I want both ! 😆
Ok, here is what I did: I had cleaned my ventilation-system in the bathroom (had to be done) and decided to give the cover a new look ("had" to be done) and was about to paint it when I clicked your video. Since I usually do, what I'm about to do, I started painting while listening to your comparison. I wasn't really focused in on the sounds, but to me it was unclear which is which most of the time - unless you said something. It was all just sounds, rather washy and evolving ones I think. But I remember that you said "sounds less analogue" at some point, before calling it "boxy".
What IS analogue? First off: Our ears can only perceive analogue. We can not hear digital. However the signal may be created, once we hear it, it is analogue. If it's not converted to analogue, we don't hear it. So it's not about the sound, because the sound is always analogue. It's about how the sound is created. Originally digital had some "issues" as in it didn't behave "analogue" in some respects. Namely: EQ cramping, aliasing and perfection. All of these "issues" are a matter of imperfect and perfect programming. Aliasing is a harmonic artifact of harmonics "folding back" (unharmonically) under certain circumstances and EQ cramping is an "uneven bellcurve" in the airband, the perfection is the precision and consistency of numbers. Just like the digital aliasing, analogue has behaviour that is (was) unwanted too: Noise and "non-linearities".
What do I mean by "non-linearities"? I mean imperfections. There are tolerances in the analogue realm and thus it never perfectly recreates the same behaviour. Another "analogue" thing is that the highs are rolled off. But here is the kicker: With exception of aliasing (digital - can be fixed) and noise (analogue - can be minimized) none of these differences are about QUALITY. They are just differences. In fact sometimes you even like the bad quality (noise or aliasing).
I'm not certain if I sniffed too much paint, but I feel like that's an important point to make and it's not made enough. There are things digital can do that analogue can't emulate and there are (very few) things analogue can do that digital can't emulate. But apart from touchable knobs and very niche things like how a pre-amp behaves in correlation to the mic-impedance nobody can "hear" (or feel) analogue or digital. Nobody. I can create the most "analogue" sound in the box and one can create the most "digital" sound with gear. What we call "analogue" and "digital" is just what used to be common differences in sound, that technology and engineering knowledge has long overcome.
What do you think? How many people actually know what "digital sound" actually was and why? How many people just assume analogue is still superior, because it's still more expensive (and always will be, because of production cost)? Kills me, honestly! Thanks for the video, it was beautiful.
Thanks.. too true. You may have caught my analog vs digital little test. No one … not one person correctly guessed which was the digital when making very ‘analogy’ sounds. :) and I hope you finished you painting
You forgot one important thing : In any of the youtube videos i hear i never hear the sound of a synth you have really in your studio. I did have a blofeld and a microwave I, they aren"t comparable in sound.
No one youtube video will show you the true sound of a microwave. You must have it in real to understand how it truly sound.
It is interesting when starsky try to compare two synth by making them sound same. But finally, this will never show the true differences of the two synth. Most of the synth reviewers on youtube use words to describe the sound, as they feel the sound. But when you listen the sounds, it is pretty difficult to catch what they say by what you hear only.
Conclusion : you must have the synth to understand.
@@NobodyNoWhereElse I don’t understand what you mean here. I have both in my studio - I also have a Microwave XT and I know them inside out. Of course I can only try to present what I think others might want to do themselves… play a few tones, try to match a couple, play with the filters etc. most people can’t get both in a room together even stores won’t have them side by side.
As far as TH-cam compression is concerned I have tested it and it is negligible - check out the video on my channel.
Nothing is as good as playing it yourself but hopefully I’m giving as much useful information as possible.
@@StarskyCarr I'm really worried about what you say if you don't understand what i mean.
I do'nt say that your video aren't interesting but from my experience youtube videos don't really let you hear the true sound of a synth.
Most of the vidéo where reviewers say that two synth are capable of almost sound the same, finally, when you got the synths, you understand that it isn't as simple as compare few tones or make slowly move a filter.
@@NobodyNoWhereElse If the sound of your synth can not be captured by recording it (and playing it back somewhere else), yet it can be heard when you're in the room: it is not the synth you are hearing, it is the room. The room has a big impact on the sound (and a secondary impact on our emotions, which distorts the perception further).
There are plenty of tests on youtube compression. Subjective and objective ones. I don't believe there is a person on earth that can hear "youtube compression" (As in: I play them a track and they tell me wether it's on youtube or from a CD). It's not compression as in an audio compressor - THAT would be audible. It's a conversion into another format (in order to save space I assume).
blofeld can makes some good trance sounds
I don't see you using stereo in your examples. The vca on the M does great weird stereo sound.
At present Waldorf does not have a distributor in Canada, so I couldn't buy an M from a Canadian retailer even if I wanted. Shame as my 60th BDay is 2 months away!
😞
I know it's a late comment but I saw M at Moogaudio
@@megus_music Yes they have them now, but the GAS has faded I am afraid.
Ideally get both since they are less than just the Waldorf Quantum.
Only difference i can tell from the early demo is the blofeld is slightly brighter, doesn't the M have an analog filter? Wonder if that's why
im typing this as im watching so maybe you mention this further in the vid
Yes the M has the SSI 2144 Low pass filter, but the digital filters in it are from the microwave and really give it character
Did Waldorf ever fix the encoder issues?
Nope. Just seems you get Lucky or unlucky. I got unlucky twice and then gave up on the blofeld. I want another though... Maybe 3rd time lucky?!
Perhaps because it’s using better rotary encoders, than the crappy ones which came with my Blofeld 15 years ago 😂
Nope, that would have no bearing on the sound quality, unless the decoder is causing obvious crackling.
They simply don't work like that.
@@2112jonr yeah I know 😂😂. I was making a tongue in cheek reference to the dreadful encoders on the original Blofeld (like mine) and the title “Why does the M cost so much more than the Blofeld” 😉
Not enough to steal my gas for the polybrute noir!
I have a Q, Blofeld, and Quantum, but I prefer the 3rd Wave to any of them!
Hoping to have a play with one soon.
New 4th wave is super nice
I had two Blofeld's. Both had problematic filter encoders and arps that would stutter and not sync to midi. I loved the sound but the synth was useless. Twice!
I think the sync is a known issue that’s never worked properly (unless I’m thinking of something else).
I hear the difference but it's definitelly not worth of 1200 GBP! The main difference is a better UI in M.
2.42 is the M for sure
Who makes an almost $2k digital synth with only 8 voices that doesn't even have keys, lol.
If I were drop that much money though...I would go irridium for the technical innovations I would never get an M, it's like buying a mercedes...don't buy one, get 3 real cars instead. Usually when a company starts overcharging for their product or nulling licenses to go to a subscription model only, the company is posturing to sell...shhhhh...don't say anything...
M is 2, seems louder somewhat?
It’s not. If you check out my sounds only demo there’s a meter. I forgot to add it to this. I do get this a lot. Different frequencies… different speakers… different ears. Best I can do is match total loudness of each.
@@StarskyCarr well they sound pretty good as is, Blofeld is holding it's own, guess why they still make them eh?
2k vs 500 is big price difference between M and Blofeld!
M does things I’ve never heard any other synth do, blofeld is cool if want a early aughts VA, pick up Largo plugin if you can’t afford an M
Great for giving them the option of Largo. it's underrated. It's incredible for a soft synth. I often use the Largo filter that's in the IridiumKeys.
Waldorf should reinvent the success of the Blofeld... & basically get its VA engine into a Groovebox product & interface. I wouldn't care if they turned, what they have already with Blofelds... & made a VA Groovebox that had more polyphony, but was otherwise similar to Elektrons Digitone. It would be another good way nowadays... To take the success of Blofeld development & make a Groovebox option, based from it. It would have been a better multi timbral device & module... had Waldorf just keep it to a 4 part multi timbral product. Like MicroQ's, Blofelds also can provide up to 24notes polyphony... Both of these Waldorfs can be 16part multi timbral. But the MicroQ made it simpler to use & implement the rack module, as a 4part multi device too. I wish the Blofeld had followed suit & did the same in multi operations of the MicroQ's. Both r great for dialing in a great VA polysynth patch & track, & using that 24 note polyphony as always enough on a single track & part of a mix. But It's enough polyphony to get by with in 4-8part multi timbral VA synths too. Or better still l, Grooveboxs in this age too.
I wish waldorf would just release an update to fix all the bugs, or make a Blofeld MK2 with same feature set but no more bugs. It`s really a pity that i can`t use the arpeggiator or synced LFO´s, or clocked delay when running in sync with other gear.
I believe Blofeld is the most sold instrument from Waldorf and i really don`t understand why they don`t give it a little more love.
They're not really a groovebox company though.
I agree with imola8, a new Blofeld at half the price of the M, but with M style controls would be incredibly attractive.
Waldorf interfaces aren't great at their low end, so a mid priced synth with decent one knob per function controls would be very welcome.
I still think the Microwave XT rules. So many filter options, albeit digital. When the Blofeld fell in price, I got one, too, as it lends itself more to softer pad sounds.
The Blofeld sounds processed and smoothed over. The M sounds more organic, almost like an instrument you would physically strum or blow into. The blanket of effects and processing that is present on the Blofeld is lifted off of the M. Plus, it's called the M, and I'm a James Bond fan. So there's that...
But the Blofeld came out YEARS before the M, how can it have lifted the effectss?
@@2112jonr You're not reading what I said correctly. I'll rephrase: the effects and processing that are present on the Blofeld are not present on the M.
Blofeld is named after a Bond character as well!
because of the analog filters. the end.
but seriously, the M is literally magic. nothing sounds as gorgeous or is as satisfying to create rhythmic complex textures with
M sounds so warm ...love it! The blofeld never impressed me....cold cold cold!
But then many synths can be, even analog ones, until you put them through effects.
The Prophet 12 is a great example - SO much warmer once you add effects to the chain.
Access Virus TI2 beats them both.
The bandpass filter on the Blofeld is utter pants.
👀 So are you saying in Waldorf screwing us over with the M? 👀
Haha not at all. Just posing the question and tying to give some evidence. There’s always going to be the law of diminishing returns. People have wondered why the price difference and what’s the impact on sound, so here’s something to help folks make up their mind. To some it will be worth it, to others it won’t. I guess it depends on your needs etc
@@StarskyCarr was it worth your purchase?
@@arrakian for me yes. I wanted a microwave 1 but the used prices are almost as much as this. Add on the controller and they’re even more. I compared these 2 here as people had asked. And there are obvious similarities, but for that tone the M gets there. It’s an expensive tone so not worth it for everyone if you keep to the less extreme ends of the spectrum.
@@StarskyCarr I just love the hardware sounds of the PPG 2.2. I’ve always been trying to get there. without having to give up an alarm for one.
@@StarskyCarr … I also thought about the microwave XT before, but after viewing a comparison video with the M, I thought the M was closer to the 2.2.
i gave up having digital hardware because the softsynths are good enough now
They are, and you can definitely get the same results I think these days. Hardware is more about the interaction and physical controls I think.
@@StarskyCarr and do you think something like sequential synths sounds can be achieved with software too ?
@@burger659 there may not be a 1:1 emulation of the Take5, Prophet 6, OB6etc but you can get very similar results with software. There's something really nice about paying hands on with the hardware, but if you haven't got the space or the cash you can get the same real world results. The inspiration may be different. I hit more esoteric weird stuff isn't possible in software. Stylophone GenR8 or PWM Malevolent, or modular FM madness. Distortion is particularly hard, but something like UAD culture vulture sounds stunning close to my hardware.
@@StarskyCarr yes, i could get even better results with the blackbox hg2 plugin than the hardware c vulture… but at extreme settings the hardware was better… sold the hw cv because for brutal distortion i prefer the Sherman… iotine core is nice too.
The only thing I can heard is the fake analog sound of Waldorf products.
Bet you'd be pushed in a blind test.
Honestly the Blofeld sounded better.