Star Wars Galaxies had the best solution to this. When you set up a faction base, you had to set a vulnerability timer. You had to pick a 3 hour window every day in which the base was open for being attacked. It allowed you to pick times in which your group was most active. Other guilds could find your vulnerability timer, and plan accordingly. This led to epic fights for all involved and importantly it was fair.
This exactly THIS ... I remember it... and most importantly it was fun, even when we had small city we were not attacked but we oftne joined other friends who asked for help and we always knew what is prime time to be online so there is some action going on ... CIG is again making complicated systems
It's odd, but I thought SC was using that classic vulnerability timer also to make those battles pre-arranged between parties. Naturally that makes no sense when the goal is to be able to steal resources though as those will most likely shipped away before the battle even starts.
I guess you can explain it as a firewall issue that opens the base up to hacking to bring down the security layers that will open it up to pvp. I don't think the window should close until someone activates those security layers back on. Similar to how the ghost hollow terminals have a cooldown so you can't withdraw money all the time
Did I hear wrong? After watching the presentation multiple times. I came away with the impression. that EACH node of the shield relays from Global to the individual ones were there OWN SEPERATE king of the hill, All of which distribute tokens based on the size and importance. There by basically tallying up all of the, both small, and large scale PvP battles all orgs have had throughout the week and then assigning a winner. This distributes the output of the tokens across all sizes of conflict for any size group or org. The intent being that, due to multiple org representation (being able to be affiliated with multiples orgs that they showed off with the new UI). Smaller groups and orgs can essentially fight for whichever of the larger orgs they would prefer to be affiliated with by engaging in PvP at whatever scale they are able to. and then also being extended the protection of the larger orgs. Much like it worked in Star Wars Galaxies. Which worked brilliantly BTW. I think the shield tech was being touted as a way for a mega guild to essentially become the defacto controller of the system. giving them the ability to build an actual full on city that any and all smaller guilds can use as a hub to sell and trade at as well. I don't think the idea of the shield tech was to make it so that most guilds were competing for it at all. I think most players and guilds will work off of the fact that their org supports the current dominant org by fighting for them for tokens whenever online. There by being under their protection by default if they do choose to build a base in the system. (larger guilds will not wish to destroy the base of a smaller guild, say Avenger Squadron, when they are possibly one of their top token earners. That guild will either leave, or worse flip sides to another guild vying for control of the shield.) This makes highly skilled smaller guilds (Avenger Squadron) actually able to sell their services as mercenaries as well. with their intent being that most players are going to operate unshielded bases, We will have to wait to see how they will address the balance of online/offline raiding. I too agree. Offline raiding is horrible and needs to not be an option. But I could see them tackling it a few different ways. First is the idea that the large guild that owns the shielded city, will have a duty to protect everyone's bases who fight for them. there by outsourcing defense of the system to players. Assuming all the active orgs in the system you are in come to your defense if attacked, that could make offline raiding barely acceptable. The other possibility comes with the fact that the planets are HUGE. how easy is it to even find someone's base. In particular, A specific guilds base that you want to attack. Will there be ways of dampening your bases signature as to hide it? Will you be able to place public beacons on bases that you want to have known publicly? All of this stuff is unknown and have a drastic impact on how this plays out.
The best way I can think, is to do it like Naval Action does it: The base owners get to choose a 3 hour window in which their base is vulnerable to attack, outside of that window the base can not be damaged. That way the owners get to at least chose after conversing with their org what time is best for everyone involved to be online if needed. and outside of that people can actually relax. the feeling of "always online or else" is one of the worst feelings in gaming, period.
problem with that is it works both ways. if you give to much power to big orgs in protections then smaller groups of players cannot challenge them. Not sure how many survival games people play but there are always mega groups that basicly want to kill everyone else and take everything they can and as someone who has always been forced to deal with massive groups with very little manpower you either have to be way better in combat and shred through hordes of endless alt accounts or you have to hit them when its safe. a 3 hour window that orgs can choose doesnt do anything but make them able to 100% protect everything they have or just switch their raid hours if your group operates at a different time. what will happen is orgs will be able to hire npc mercs and have automated defenses. wont be as strong as real players but is more than enough for smaller groups to deal with on top of also dealing with endless player accounts.
@@Marlax-101 yea its not a perfect solution but just the only one i think would really work. massive super zerg orgs I dont think will ever realistically be defeatable by smaller elitefits in situations like this. especially not now with master modes. im gonna be honest ive never seen a game do this kind of thing well to the point it actually feels good to be a part of and not just a constant stressfest that burns out absolutely everybody involved besides the psychopaths with 50 accounts.
Hopefully they'll implement an Eve like system where the base goes into siege mode. Giving orgs a chance to organize themselves it would make for grand gameplay and give us 9-5ers a chance.
Think about groups in other countries. For example the vast majority of German speaking players are in one timezone. English has worldwide coverage. But some language groups are stuck. Mechanics need to be in place to cover the 3am crowd.
I just think this type of gameplay is strictly for very large orgs. Just to add, to build a space station and large base is probably going to take a long time and a ton of resources to do if CIG doesn't make this pay to win and is only achievable by grinding out all the time sinks to do. A small org may take years to get to the point of a space station if that is the intention of this specific game loop. Now with that said a very large org will have players from all timezones vs a small one with most members from local timezones. Then again we'll only know until it's in game, I tend to stop focusing on speculation from CIG until we actually have it in hand.
Interestingly, what you describe from your (PvP'er) perspective, about "not being a fan" to being unable to effectively defend what you've worked hard for, and built, and own, because someone will look for the moment you're at the weakest and strike then, turning you to an underdog.. is EXACTLY the same reason why some (non-PvP'ers) are not a fan of having to fly to PvP zones to mine or haul, etc., because (esp now with the plans on best resources being in Pyro) that means they are facing exactly the same problem. They are not fan of being unable to defend, and risk all they have worked hard for, and own. So it would actually be nice for these two groups to come together on this point and communicate to CIG that this needs to be a game that is fun, AND rewarding to both playstyles. Not just one, or the other.
The PVPers are not going to come together on this. The PVPer, including this video, are only interested in leveling the playing field to their level. You hit the nail on the head with this comment. Many people are not going to have the time to mine and deal with PVP. Putting all of the best resources in systems like Pyro effectively make those resources only available to the largest orgs. They will lock down the entrances to systems at the wormholes and then the idea that Pyro is "high risk/high reward" goes out the window. It will become safer than NPC "safe" space. Just Like EVE, Null sec is safer that 1.0 Jita. The pirate/griefer will always find a loophole in the system.
@@chrislewis4810 Theres a huge difference between being attacked while you sleep (after actively defending and fighting other players for 16 hours out of a 24 hour day) and just being a p*ssy thats bad at the game and doesn't ever want to fight back or pay people to defend them while they are online doing activities. You already have your carebear kiddie pool areas of the gamr, you do NOT deserve equal rewards for playing with lower risk and risk vs reward was a huge component of SC since day 1 in 2012. 99% if video games are designed fir carebears especially MMOs, Star Citizen is NOT 1 of them. Stay in high security space and get your deservedly lower rewards if you don't want to compete vs other players- or go play Starfield or Elite Dangerous
When it comes to PvP you should listen to PvP players. There is a rich experience pool to use so that you arent reinventing the wheel in SC. If you want to protect your players from the true griefers out there you should listen to the veteran PvPers.
A couple notes: -Player Space Stations is planned for a 1.0 release. CIG have gone on record saying that Dynamic Server Meshing is a requirement for 1.0's release. -Base-building is coming out next year, and that's where half the problems Avenger raises will be found. But those problems will go away when the servers run more stably, NPC security forces are patrolling High Sec locations, and the current ship combat is ironed-out or replaced. -CIG's 1.0 proposal is very EVE inspired, but definitely better tilted in the favor of defenders. Player camps will come with turrets and missiles for defense, which will offer a more robust defense for off-line players. But ganking while defenders are offline is a core part of the EVE experience. -Assuming things get better with SC, based on the plans they've offered, I'd rather be ganked while asleep in SC than EVE. -Only certain sized ships will be able to travel through atmosphere. That's going to skip a lot of the possible pain regular groups are going to have against Pirates. -I am assuming that features like missile tracking working, competent NPC security forces, auto-turrets tracking, ship combat is revamped, and a more robust Server Meshing will be in the future of the game. Avenger here is assuming the opposite. -The King of the Hill tokens thing is going to have problems no matter how you cut it. If it was per shard, then you would have people shard surfing trying to find the one shard they can grab. That's also going to favor the giga-orgs. -When Org controls features are added to the game, I fully expect the power to shift dramatically. Then a larger shift when we get closer to 1.0 when there's greater players-per-shard. Meaning you won't just have Test, you'll have a bunch of groups bleeding each-other dry, freeing up space for the little guy. -I'm expecting Shield Tokens to be player-to-player sellable. Could be wrong, but it seems silly to bar that obvious flow of trade. -Assuming any level of combat balancing: Pirates and Raiders will have to risk losing real resources when they go on the attack. If they just zerg with Starter Ships, they'll get ripped apart by base defenses/NPC security. Having defenses be visual is going to force gankers to pick their targets more, recognizing that any kind of prolonged fight is going to heavily eat into their profits. Instead, I expect gankers to focus on cargo ships, instead of base raiding. -There's a logistical cost to ganking. They can just get into medium fighters and warp onto a target, but anyone they lose is going to take a lot of time to replace. Low of 10 minutes, high of an hour. Plus each ship in Ganker's fleet has to be a person. 20-man wings will exist, don't get me wrong, and that should overwhelm most medium-sized bases and even larger I would bet, but I struggle to organize 5 people to play D&D. Anyone who can wrangle together that many people to gank, who won't then go after eachother, frankly deserves the riches of their spoils. Everyone else will have to warp-in with some sort of carrier that can replace fighters. Unique when compared to EVE, that carrier is a target the defenders can pretty much win instantly if they destroy. -Death of a Space Man should discourage some reckless Goon Swarm-styled ganking. And I have to spit to get the taste out of my mouth, for mentioning that "feature".
I can't imagine death of a space man will do much to discourage someone with an LTI and an alt to offload all their valuables (or just an alt with an LTI combat ship), I don't really see whats to stop a group of a few players with LTI gladiuses (gladiai ??) from just attritioning and offline raiding the base to death while wearing the spawn suit To be honest all i see it doing is making the difference between people that pledged for ships and who earned them even greater, and allowing "trolls" to just further hurt random people when they gank starting locations for shits and giggles
Reply line by line. -If anybody can get a mesh running like this, I think CIG will be the one, but we are still a long way away. (A single shard also does not sound like it is in their vision for 1.0) -Npc need to be killable by the most novice player so unless they design an AI set for security forces that can challenge the top 15% of players and win it doesn't matter. -EVE is a single world and therefore have the 24-hour combat problem resolved, for large clans if we have chards only the theory is the same, but combat is vastly different and will lead to chard raiders like in other MMO's. -OK I have nothing here since you are fine restarting every day, -Why pirate if I can just take everything you own. HAVE you ever played a PVP game. -Refer to point number 2 and I will add here. If a much more competent AI is built all this will mean is that the best of the best will be criminals even in the perfect environment. You make the one mistake every wonabe makes. PVP is not inherently fair it is pure EVIL. -OK maybe you have played some pvp -Nope the little guy will have to ally with a bigger org just like in EVE. -What org will sell immunity? -Yip maybe you haven't played PVP. They are definitely going to take the entire base and do it until you leave for HIGH sec system. -As someone that has been part of large orgs. They will arrange players to do a sustained attack 24 hours a day with very little problems. The management of these large orgs are impressive. -Nope it will just be the bottom of the org structure where you are expected to be a target until proven worthy. You will be shocked by the capability of these large orgs and what they can accomplish. I have been on both sides of this coin and what is laid out currently favors the Mega org.
This system sounds like an utterly terrible way to deal with this tbh; just give us reinforcement timers on destroyable shield units, much like EVE's reinforcement timers, as for all their issues, they're a hell of a lot fairer & better mechanic-wise than this sh!t show
I think whatever system you make, people will form discord groups probably paid discord servers where people hop shards all day un till they are in the same shard as the discord they are in. And they agree to not attack anybody in the entire shard, these people won't even bother with the whole fake shield token blah blah. And if you play normally there is no chance in nine hells you will be comparable in power to these people. Because people will min max to the fastest riches whatever it is, so even people that don't know the discord stuff is going on will want to be in these "dead" shards where they aren't getting attacked for 10 hours straight. And the difference will be insane, they'll go to the shield KOTH thing and nobody shows up. And they'll be like omg i'm getting so many minutes in while in reality they are wasting their time because everyone in this shard is just printing money unprotected. And then i think it's highly likely CIG will be like what the crap those discord servers are stealing our money. And they will start just straight up selling shields for IRL moneys like clash of clans. So I'm pretty sure a whole lot is going to change in this system, like basically everything. If i'm completely wrong, then what is stopping people from joining the ORG that won the KOTH last week lol?
CIG will implement new systems, new systems will be exploited, cig will create new refined systems, these systems will get exploited, repeat until the game isn't fun anymore. Solution: CIG will implement tools so the playerbase can use them; systems will be created with these tools by the playing community. Always the same...just let the people figure out there own systems and give them the tools to be creative. That's the simulation of a space game CIG wants and the players are wanting to see.
A potential partial solution could be the following: ships are hard to mantain, in lore, they are in essence constantly operating when out of a dock, however bases dont need that much mantainance, a turret is just chilling until it detects an enemy. So base defenses could just be relatively cheap, were a medium based is STACKED with the firepower of a Javelin or whatever. Making raids (assuming death of a spaceman and working servers and AI) not very efficient most of the time
It's so complicated I hate it... if they can't explain endgame pvp in a single sentence and they have to use complicated words like shield shards fighting for shield base whatever i loose interests.. i'm simple minded person, deploy base, earn resources, and certain time be onliine to attack opposite players, I don't even undrstand why should I fight for some invulnerability magical shield it's so stupid like a next level stupidity ... and every week... grinding for shields instead of actually forgming groups to take down playerbases what are they doing...
This would be a great use of that original concept we had for replacing NPCs with live players on a ship. Once you build the assets for your station (e.g., turrets, hanger ships, crew quarters) the system replaces live bodies with NPCs 24/7. So when I go to sleep my station is still being defended by the NPC crew who will arm the torrents and use every available fighter or ship while I'm not logged on. As an org leader, that should just be a set of settings that I get to do for this massive space station. As live players logon they replace the NPCs so there isn't technically an unfair advantage.
@@dr.johnorr3341 as much as I'd prefer this game to be entirely player based, having Conan Exiles-esque NPC's manning the base, sounds even more desirable than NPC crews tbh, as well as less balance destabilising. Even with dogsh!t AI, just knowing that you'd have some extra boots on the ground for players to grind through, would be a somewhat comforting thought & if they actually got the AI half competent, it could genuinely make for meaningful defense.
Losing a base or station should be because you lost a battle, I don't see why they are so determined to make only the largest groups (which are, by virtue of size, the best at defending against "offline raids") able to not be at risk from offline raids, Honestly feels like another instance of CIG overcomplicating what should be simple, and simplifying what should be in-depth and complicated
Im far from the first to say this, but they are gonna have to limit org size. Server issues dont bother me as dynamic meshing should fix that. Also personally, i think you should never be able to atack the shield system, maybe if you do your org just gets blacklisted and blocked by the automated system or whatever. Your base cant be offline raied but the shield relay can? then so can the base...
Huh? Then why even have a shield system if you can't interact with it?
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Limiting org size would be harsh on non-hardcore org. Some orgs actually have players with offline lives, so the size can be very large but few active users. See: the fatherhood in ED. There its ok, even expected, to be interrupted by IRL stuff all the time.
You forget the part of the consequence of losing your ships, and death of a spaceman. You cant just respawn a ship, and be back within an hour. If so it takes alof of preparation, and sacrifices regarding your character. And I think this will make it interesting regarding strategies all the way down to the tactical level. And lastly, this system will be fleshed out, and more than likely change. As closer we become, and tests will be performed and we see what they learn from this. Anyway this is End Game Orgs stuff. Sure it sucks for the lonely wolf player, or just a couple of buddies orgs. That will not get "true" protection. But again its not here yet, and CIG might change how this works. Or the universe will be so big, that you are just unlucky if a grifter or pirates find your base.. who knows
if dead of a spaceman still exist in CIG eyes....the 1.0 presentation is the opposite of a lot of think like death of a spaceman that CIG tell us sine years....that is the big prob...we can't trust CIG anymore for nothing!
So the solution would be offline raid protection 1. at least X people must be online for the base to be vulnerable. 2. max. X people can participate in the siege at the same time. 3. player structures can only be switched off temporarily These are a few things I know from other games
THis was my soultion but add a cool down timer so orgs cant just "turn off" whenever they want. I would say a set time after the org either has enough people {we'll just say 10) or they activate a station defense pvp mission, but the station has to be defended for the set time period and it has to be a longer time period like 8 to 12 hours to allow orgs the ability to gather up, plan and attack.
Alt accounts circumvent this. Imagine you have 2 accounts, you send stuff to your second account from your org base, orgs log off from there so the base is "not" vulnerable. this way you get to reap the benefits of getting your stuff and keeping your base safe.
Nah, EVE already figured this out. There are POSs (Player Owned Structure) which have a shield around it and requires fuel to run. You need to shoot down the shield and then the POS goes into "Reinforced" mode where it has 99.9% resist for everything on it's shiels. So basically immune. This reinforce period lasts max 42hours (depending on how much reinforce fuel is in the pos). After 42hours it runs out and needs to be refueld. So basically the players have 42 hours to prepare a defence fleet for that POS. Since eve is global it's a common occurrence that US corps shoot POS into reinforce at an inconvenient time for the defending EU corp and vice versa.
I believe yall are putting to much into protecting your stuff. npcs will likely be available to protect areas while offline for a fee. Any protections you give a base can also be abused by the worst orgs and so you always need to have ways to attack and remove orgs with bad intentions. i have been forced to fight mega orgs and tribes in games pritty much every time i played a survival game with very small groups and if those bases ever had immunity protections it would near impossible to deal any meaningful damage to their group and we would be forced to leave the game. big orgs will have a lot of resources which means spare capital for Npc merc or automated defenses, Let alone ships like the nautalis which lay minefields and laser turret mines. There is plenty of defenses orgs can use besides immunity. now if the station itself was immune to damage i would say you have to cut off its supply lines and starve them out but even that would be very difficult.
Spot on, with you 100%. SUGGESTION for CIG, offer a form of obtainable "Clocking shield" for bases, IF Nobody is there Activity & Heat signatures are non existent therefore the Base does not show in game, unless there is a high enough activity signal based on active player/s at the base, Edit: a larger base logically will need more active players to give off detectible Activity vs a small base. Really enjoy your Vids, perfect logic every time! 🚀
Not sure if you mentioned it... admittedly I was only half paying attention... but another issue with this is that since the shields are credit-based, that means that only the largest/most active 3 or 4 orgs are ever going to control it, since they will by default control the most resources. Honestly, I was super jazzed on day 1, but when we got to this part, all I could think was "whelp, this basically destroys any smaller org". It was kind of disheartening.
I think that so long as they fix the threat posed by security forces the High/Medium/Low/Null security regions will work. If the UNN or whatever in game security respond from the start with a patrol Idris deploying 2 hornets and a hurricane and the AI for those ships are set to the highest tier of function/threat, then I think that will pose a threat to most small teams taking out a security relay or attacking players over an extended period of time. One on one the AI isn't a threat but when you add multiple types of ships attacking at the same time light fighters and interceptors will need to create distance and anything larger will be in real danger. As for this king of the hill setup I think it wont be the worst thing so long as it's a Pyro specific feature. It's too half baked for something that exists in every system and shields don't make sense thematically anywhere else.
I think that you should just be able to build a bubble shield over your base that you have to keep up with resources/shield fuel bought with uec. The bigger your base gets and the more area the shield needs to cover, the more exponentially expensive it gets. Small base with 1~2 buildings and a landing pad? Solo players can upkeep the shield no problem playing 2 hours a day on average. Medium base with 4~5 buildings and 2 landing pads? Solo player averaging 5 hours a day can keep it up but would not have much if any money left over. Large scale base with 10+ buildings, garages, mining lasers, and landing pads? You'd need s small org with multiple players to keep it up. This reduces chances of offline raiding and is much much easier to understand than the weird orbital shield bidding thing. Also doesn't leave solo players out to dry since its easy for people with not much time to keep up a safe little home in the verse. Most importantly, it prevents mega zergs from owning the shield station and extorting other players.
I agree that if things are implemented as planned, there will be issues with players taking advantage of time zones, and large organizations will be able to bully smaller entities. This current design philosophy would only work if they create multiple PU servers (like servers in WoW). Each server would have e the same shards for server meshing, but each individual server would have their own iteration of each shard. This would be a solution to time zones, but wou,d require players to choose a single server for their character to be on effectively region locking the game with time zones. My idea for how they can solve the org/player bullying issue could then be solved by first establishing differences between individual player housing and Impose limits on who can attack or interact with that housing, and then the same could be set up for orgs too. For orgs, I think, if it could be quite simple, we can split orgs into different tiers of sizes, and then only allow orgs to declare war on orgs that are within the same size tier. For orgs that want to remain small but fight in larger wars, they could join an alliance with another org or groups of orgs. The system would then allow the alliance of smaller orgs to grow into a larger tier org and declare war on the larger orgs. A few other ideas I have: 1. Allow players to join multiple orgs like in gw2. With the caveat being that if a player wishes to rep or be active in that org they must be orgless for 24 hours. 2. If org buffs or bonuses are a thing. Cig should look into balancing the buffs between different org tier sizes. 3. There are flaws to this as well, but make it so that orgs can only declare war on x number of orgs that scale with tier of orgs. A smaller size org might only be able to go to war with 3 orgs vs a larger org might not have restrictions. 4. The war stuff should only impact bases and not prevent people from playing the rest of the game freely. Just an idea from some random guy.
Correct, it seems like the designers have the same approach for squadron and the MMO, but an MMO lives on when you sleep and work. In an MMO it is more desirable that you take down the shields with a lot of firepower, which then creates a kind of impenetrable shield by using a special raw material, which then destroys the shield generator after 24 hours or a maximum of 48 hours. it is therefore highly recommended that the enemy can only penetrate the station by hacking when those shields are down If the installation of the new shield generator was successful, you can switch it on again after 3 hours charging time ( including refilling the material that served for the impenetrable shield, because that also partly serves for the start-up ) The enemy then has a few hours to get as many people as possible into your station, but once your shield works again, they can no longer send additional attackers. Of course you still have to kill the enemies that are still in the station and Of course you can stop a lot invaders by taking down as many ships that come close as possible. let say, the eve version in a star citizen version
bad game design, but in my opinion, it only need refinement. And at that point, all of that is 100% speculation. It would be easy to have local "shield bases" that only will work on "small base" in "specific area", so you'll win the seal tokens of your region and can provide protection on your small scale stuff, while "big stupid zerg orgs" (sorry for my hate input here) will slaughter themselves on the core to protect their multi-useless-stations.
100%. I think the hype is dying out and people are finally looking into the details and adding sharding complexities and realizing this system will literally destroy Star Citizen and lead to a massive player exodus. It doesn't work. The technology is simply not there ti make it work and it is extremely tilted to benefit massive orgs. If we think eve online is bad at gaining new players, Star Citizen will be legendary at driving people away.
I agree with A1 on this issue. The Seal Tokens should be tracked "per shard", and not "across all shards" like was proposed at CItcon. This will allow players that are actively competing with each other to **actually directly oppose each other** in real time, and not just grind their faces off & then hope that we out-played that invisible group on some other shard at the end of the week.
That is stupid it should be a building/module in the base which can be hacked and disabled with a warning to the base owners who hold certain roles winner takes all inevitably leads to monopoly
For those who aren't old enough to know, this kinda scenario happened with an old MMO, star wars galaxies. Players could build base structures that were able to be destroyed by players of the opposite faction and yeah it wasn't playable UNLESS you had a guild big enough there was 24/7 presence, it didn't work. Star cit will be a griefers paradise for player structures able to be destroyed it will fall flat on its face no one will care nor bother, because why should they? The only real solution they could do would be things like defense turrets be able to be destroyed, and things like storage objects like SCU crates able to be stolen if players get access to something not locked down or held down in a locked down storage. That would be the only non griefer bait way vulnerable player structures could work in star cit. Besides that though player structures should not be able to be destroyed by any griefer who comes along to blow out a base because for the lulz, because the system will be a laughable failure if that ends up being the case.
You can purchase personal shields or go with upgraded shield tech in lawful zones. Simply put: don't build your base in lawless zones if you don't want it to be destroyed every time you log on. It's a really simple solution.
I think we should worry more about the lack of physics, poor game-world interaction, bad UI, awful map, flaccid flight model... you know.. the basics. One day we're gonna have ALL THIS!!!! 12 years later....
Yeahball thatbisngonna to be address at 1.0, its just were in the middle of development and a lot of that stuff was contingent on squadren 42, which is almost done. So the current plan is awesome.
I agree but have mixed feeling about offline raiding. If it is not allowed, bases can camp on the best resources and all they have to do to retain that space is not log on. It also encourages tons of bases littering the landscape as people can't raid and replace. This is what happens in Rust on private servers where MODs don't allow offline raiding. Its also a very frustrating experience for those that are more active players. But as someone who has experienced my base being absolutely bodied while offline its not a good feeling. I do think that their needs to be a balance. Territory hoarding is also not a situation you want.
They need to read about how the stations worked out in Eve online with siege mechanics. Your 100% correct I would get notifications at 2am that our station was under attack and I needed to log on to refill the fuel to keep the shields up after awhile I got tired of it and said screw it not worth it for a game.
That's why stations are end-game, large org features. If you don't want to deal with it, stick to the other content that is manageable. No one has to run a space station 24/7; it's a choice for end-game goals for large orgs.
maybe space stations that are in the surroundings of POI are permanent “visible" and "accessible”. Space stations that are more far away are in instanced zones, that are not accessible if a player/group is not online ...
looks overcomplicated, and I can see a lot of DayZ or Rust style shenanigans going on I find it Ironic that the game is set so far in the future and you still have to press a button on your ship to get into it... what's wrong with a remote key fob?? we have had them in real life since the 90's
So selution for shields events. Check game life is feudal. So depending size of base / groop the Corporation been to choose 1-8 periods per week every time atack period 2- 4 hours. And enemy need to figure out attack the base by this time and seconded groop protec tha base . Just in this period can be destroy the base . So all groops need to choose the time attack. All the rest time every body will have immunities from destroy the base .
You brought up some really good points. Players should be able to have there own base shield generators period. When I watched the base building segment and he fired up the power plant sending a blue beam of energy into the air I thought why isn't that your shield? They could have different sizes based on the area of coverage you need and/or the ability to create large shield grids for the big bases by linking multiple shield generators together. They should be just another crafting blueprint you can obtain and craft. Look on the bright side, CIG could then sell boring vehicles so we can tunnel under the shield perimeters and use infiltration teams to take them down. If your fighter or ground vehicle can generate a shield why not your base? Snap out of it Cig..
It's not about giving the defender a fair chance. As you said this shield thing is only viable for the mega orgs. That means all orgs need to get bigger. Bigger orgs mean more players. So existing players will encourage new players to buy the game and play. RSI marketing will be happy. If you bring in enough players, you get rewarded with protection.
I don’t know if you read all these but I just wanted to say, after your space tomato interview I realized you have a very clear idea for a very interesting competitive PVP space game of your own. By no means am I suggesting you shouldn’t cover star citizen, but indie game development has become increasingly accessible and I think you could probably make something very cool ;)
I have thought of this as well and came up with a concept for it: have SEAL tokens be very hard to get and be available in limited amounts through other options, then give players a terminal at bases where higher ranking org members can flick a switch which will activate the shields for a cost of 1 token every 2 hours or so so when are in lower population you can turn it on and when you log on you can turn it off. Thus you can be attacked when you are online, but you also are able to do this pseudo rust upkeep thing where you farm for tokens one day and the next day when you are out of then you can turn it on. it might also be possible to give a 4+ hour cooldown from switching the shield on and off. This is what I have thought of but I could not be cooking with this one.
Being a veteran RUST player, I can garante all what you are saying about base raiding. Offlining is basically a way of life. Make it crazy expensive, make it take time, and have a ton of shields. Cap raiding with other micro games to spread out the warfare. I highly doubt they can get this working even with good and perfected server meshing tech. Design carefully and make realistic goals… don’t think SC will do any of this, but I will cheer them on to try 😅
My fleet is specifically aimed to delete player owned station. Javelin, idris m, polaris and the perseus will be my base bought exactly to slap people.
It's never greifing if you bring a Reclaimer... Yeah you are 100% right the player needs control over when their vulnerable window is and i do not like the entire shield token bs system
After reading other peoples comments here, Im getting the impression that maybe larger base gameplay is intended specifically for the largest orgs and bigger alliances... for now. As I understood, the shields are just to stop MOABs and bombing runs from destroying your buildings outright, but groups can still kick in the doors with a couple tanks, hack your cargo elevators and take some resources. They said buildings would be very resilient, so it would be a huge waste of resources to destroy a small player outpost unless you knew they had valuable land or minerals. If a small group of players is starting SC from scratch on patch 1.0 launch... it would probably make more sense for them to operate out of a station or a Levski for a good long time until they had a good enough supply chain, or the actual need, to set up a ground operation.
Shard manipulation warfare is inevitable. Denial of shard attacks and shard weaponization is a given. Just camp shards to thin out your attackers or concentrate your defenses. plus, Hornet level 5 versus Hornet level 1. How are they gonna balance this game lol. Buy it is skill based right? right?
With the server limitations they (still will) have, to whatever degree, encouraging large zerg numbers, such as through the token system, seems like it could be structurally self-defeating. I may be ignorant, but I would think they would want to go in the opposite direction design-wise.
npc is not a problem. Easy to make npc with 100% winrate all the time. It's exponential more difficult to make a NPC act and be percieved as a rl player.
Why cant I as a single player just use my asteroid hanger as my base... They Gave me an Asteroid hanger with my ship so surely I will get one? Surely? ;) Oh and when you broach this question with CIG please reinforce the fact that I need it to be large enough to house my Orion! :) Thank you for your support. and Thank you for you content.
They need to have NPC barracks where AI can defend (assuming they get server fps up). Global vs shard event doesn't matter, because groups like test could potentially invade each shard with how many players they have.
Nice Vid AV_1. Two years later and server meshing gets worse every year... Also current hangers cant persistently hold misc. items with out them floating away. I don't see them being able to support the added load of base building when we don't even have consistent inventory's. I don't see how this base building will work with their failed netcode. I must also take into account the things that do work such as HUDS and Vehicle combat get ruined with backwards design decisions (ex. mastermodes and new hollywood HUDS).
I was a bit taken away, that they will only have 5 systems, I thought they will procedurally generate a few new explorable systems for players, where you have basically not much civilization, by some magic wormhole event. Also if players spam the surface with buildings, and defenses, exploration will basically die fast. I do think PvP should be a major part of the game and how to gain control, but I would actually think, for this token system, PvE or instanced PvP would be a better thing. I also wonder if Tokens can be sold.
Instanced -whatever- is the worst enemy of open world ... I used to enjoy many games until they introduced instanced pvp battleground it's so bad it shouldn't be even considered as an option
hi , i understand your concern , however some are legit some are mixed up imo, first there is a lot of speculation , we ve got too little information for now to get worrie, second there is a need of gameplay for every scale , i play small org pve gameplay and i wont hope for getting a base on unlawful station and fight for shield seal, i rather farm for middle to large base on lawfull area and there is a large amount of gameplay for my type of org already! that nice that cig also thinking about 1k+ type of org that will need gameplay of there scale, and "they" also will bring gameplay and mission for every type of player that out of there org im sure! the problem here is that every one want everything, im sure some of baker dreaming about this kind of station made by themselves alone and imagine that they can manage it with mpc ia , but to me that is crap, (same for large capital ship imo but that out of topic), that will push people too play together to accomplish larger goal and that good too me. many will try with small org to do any type of base on unlawful system for sure though it will be a lot of player and lot of bases and the game still big so be lucky and your base may remain a fair amount of time before getting destroyed, but dont cry if you loose everything, this is the game and im fine with it ^^, i dont want offline protection or any of those shit , i want the game to feel challenging at some point. some goal are easy to accomplish and some are the top the mountain type and i might never reach those, and i am fine with that ;) , but its a promess of perceptive and rich gameplay possibility that every one would ever dream for a game right now so i pledge for that is not for every one and that perfect imo, and if i want to chill, i go on lawful system doing some mining on no mans land area and that will be perfect that it ^^ thank for sharing anyway , i like your content
They need to have timed PvP raids. Throne and liberty has a decent system where boonstones can be contested only by certain orgs based on ranking and only at certain time.
Other note, as far as I can tell, their presentation doesn't imply that the shield bases and relays will be directly applying the shields to your base, they're just how you earn the tokens to pay for shields. They didn't imply that there would be any way to interfere with the shields once they're applied for the week.
@@LuxTenebrae you can hack individual player built outposts and they can have differing levels of hack protection, the shields are surface regional and i'd imagine it gives you offline protection for the week so what you effectively get is a weekly or biweekly, whatever, immunity from getting raided in that given region in exchange for tokens, it's a clever idea because what it effectively means is if you're solo you want to setup shop next to the big org because it's more probable you're going to benefit from them winning the resetting global event, that's kind of the inverse of Rust, come to think of it you could even setup treaty's with the big org which in the event they lose offline protection on the sector for the week and they don't protect your outpost or it gets raided by them all the solo's can raid them back.
@@LuxTenebrae The player made ground based shield can be infiltrated on foot and hacked/disabled. The Seal tech shield is like a planetary shield in lawful space with full invulnerability for all your orgs owned bases and orbital station on that planet. There is a set of these relays and orbital stations for each planet. The core is just the controller that trades the tokens.
I think it's going to be a pure nightmare to balance all this out and at the same time provide a "fun" experience. It reminds me of the old DayZ where me and my friends used to wake each other up in the nighttime cause our bases was going to be raided. Then it comes to a point where a game stops beeing a game and more of a job. That is my biggest fear with Star Citizen 1.0......... i want to be able to just hop in and have fun fast.
I don't think people will put their station in pyro... they will try to build it in the safest area wich will be annoying for pirates to destroy... the opposite scenario is just as problematic as the one you just discribe...infinite UEE idriss wave that come to defend the carebare station and at the end every org able to have a bengal is ridiculous... the right balance is gonna be hard to achieve
The potential abuses with base raiding and shards is one of my biggest concern and I was hoping this Citcon would give us answers, unfortunately we got none and I think it might be cause CIG doesn't know either. they probably came up with a cross shard planetary shield event cause they know some form of instancing or shard hop will have to happen when an area is too busy, so they wanted to add a mechanic to give big orgs the feeling they actually own a system in the world rather than in their alternate version of it
Its a simple as a button with a cool down. In my idea, the stations would have God Mode until the org actually wants to fight and turns off the God Mode for a minimum of 12 hours. When the org is done for the night, they turn off the God Mode, or they run the risk of being raided without an actual defense force.
@@thecancermen245 I would say no because that would make a situation like “I went on vacation and lost everything” happen. I would say God Mode is the standard mode. Org activates a come attack me beacon and it’s set for x amount of time, then the station goes into cool down and when the last org member leaves the server the infrastructure either despawns or is in a constant GM state. That would allow for you to actually log off and not lose everything. If the station didn’t despawn, could even have a station raid PVE where an org or player attacks your AI only. Then maybe steals some loot but doesn’t really destroy the station. Then you could have full on Org conflict where the stations aren’t immune to being destroyed. It would make actual warfare a legitimate thing and separate it from normal day to day, and a route only taken when there’s no other resort. Maybe make it that if you raid a base 3 times the org can legally declare war on you and war gives you “intel” updates like the tracking for bounty hunters. On the auto cool down? I’d say 24 hours. It allows for a “I was stupid” but doesn’t allow for a complete yard sale of your stuff when you’re gone. There’s always the possibility of making GM the default until war is declared and until there’s a peace treaty between the orgs, they have to defend the station.
The problem with doing it by shard is that then your property has to be by shard. It has to despawn when you leave and follow you to whatever shard you join (like Fallout 76 bases), but how do they handle that when we’re logging in? What happens if the shard that your org is controlling is full and you want to log in? Do you log into a shard with all your stuff unprotected? Can you just not log in? How would they handle that? Also, the phrase “nip this in the bud” is a gardening metaphor. Cut off the flower (in the bud) before it can bloom. No butts required.
They'll most likely have a dedicated station combat server. Think the tiny stutter when you head into the different regions around the Vinewood sign and fort Zancudo on GTAV. You have no idea you just hit a load screen but you actually did type of thing.
In Planetside 2 devs countered the dominance of zergfits to tag bases(we can compare it to the SC token system) implementing a system that only take the 15 bests players of EACH teams (so with the best score) to determinate who win what so a big team with alot of players can't just stupidly dominate regardless of the impact ratio of his players, they also put out some kind of score in the equation to limite stat pad(fake revive to have big fake score) they does that because one year they implemented an official competitive format where only the teams with the best score could qualify to the competition. The problem was that close to only zergfits with atrocious level got qualified and little teams with good level and interested by the format got put on the side... So they could do a system inspired by this when there is competitive mecanics in the game. As an aside on Star Citizen i didn't even think to have an orbital base. It's too big for my team but it's not a problem for us. We will probably play in an alliance and try to impact as much as we can like this and it will be ok. I don't think that only the "individual skill" or "micro skill" of little try hard group should be rewarded in "any situations" the interest of having big numbers is also to know how to be impactfull with it. And it can feel easy because yeah saturation by number is the most powerfull thing in this kind of game or Planetside 2 but the reality is that only the best zergfit supported with the best team will be able to sustain in the hardest area. And at some point the assymetry provided by zergfit is what make this kind of game and fights fucking cool. It's fucking cool to manage team that are technically 10000time stronger than you in number and you can't have this feeling in so much games. Overall and regardless of it's different dynamic and mitigate success, Planetside 2 is a good MMO FPS to understand some things that could happen in SC, good or bad. And for the secured system i think they can just artificialy overpowered the IA damages and shit if you are not sufficiently efficient to do your job in time. But yeah there is alot of question with all of this but overall I think it will be ok. A very chaotic start but everyone and every teams will took the place they deserve in the long time run.
New world has a pretty cool instanced attack defense system with their wars. I think that would be cool, but that wouldn't really be Star citizen. Probably would have to do raid windows.
I have a feeling CIG has thought about all of these issues and they will come up with a fair solution. Especially having to worry about your base 24/7. All we can do right now is speculate. We need to have it in our hands before we can come to any conclusions about it being both fun and fair. I'm sure Jared will provide a lot more details in the ISC's in the coming months. My other thoughts are that NPC's in high sec locations are NOT going to be the brain-dead, easily destroyed, chumps we have been dealing with until now. I think they will be vastly OP to the point not even ace PVP pilots will have a hard time defeating them.
I heard this too often already so time to return the favour: Worried about PvP offfline raids? HIRE ESCORTS! There, job done. Hire somebody to babysit when you go offline.
At the end of the day, CIG is going to have to figure out how to instance a lot of these mechanics on scheduled timers. No way to do this in the openwolrd
Nah, it's really fine. Notice what the caveats are here: it applies to lawless systems. If you don't want to deal with 24/7 sieges, do not build in lawless zones .If you are a sweaty base-building sweat-lord, then have at it in trying to control Pyro/Nyx.
I'm calling it now, any player base in Pyro will be destroyed soon after it gets discovered unless it's owned by one of the dominant orgs that can pay the SEAL tokens. It'll be a ravaged wasteland.
Won't there be npc hires by then? I don't think you would need a lot of people to man this network. Just a team of bio's at key posts, some npc's hires, some engineers for repair and fires. Maybe some repair drones. Some fighters, bio's and npc's and maybe some internal ground security. I'm guessing a lot will be automated. And you could use allies. Building the resources and resource network would be the basis of the people. Everyone protecting it's own shop.
You seem to be forgetting dynamic server meshing, remember the demo? where we had 3 servers for 3 parts of the same hallway, with each person being able to interact with people on different servers. The limitation will be how much computers can render on screen, where you might be looking at 50 severs worth of players.
IIRC the way they want to get around the limit number of players per shard is by dynamically adjusting shard sizes. Meaning if you have 100 players on a station and that number is the maximum per shard then when you arrive with a 5 man strike team you will not be denied access but instead the server will divide the station into multiple shards. They have demonstrated the tech that shows how players in different shards can see and interact with each other.
The biggest problem with the current comm relay system is that they never come back online without player intervention. The relays either need to have an auto-restart feature or else trigger a police response to re-activate them if they've been down too long. Additionally, player bases should have the option of building and maintaining their own comm relays along with static defenses.
Giving CIG the benefit of the doubt here. What if: Raids were limited to maybe 500 people, 250 per side (maybe more, maybe less). 1 hour prior to the raid, the current system owned occupants would be removed from the battlegrounds area (the org's space station due to an impending attack) and that point would no longer be a quantum point for org members unless they are on the Defender list. This would allow the defenders 1 hour to get their guys there and in position before the raid starts. When the time hits, the attackers would then have that space station as a quantum marker that they can jump to, and obviously it would put them out a bit further when they jump. Aside from that, anyone who happens to wander into the area of the space station could attack, but couldnt destroy the station. I think there's a lot of variables here. CIG didnt really outline the plan in detail so we dont really know exactly how things are going to work yet, we just have a very generalized idea that omits almost all details. I do, however, like the idea of this video in that its telling CIG how NOT to do it, and giving them insight on a lot of details into why. Its very early on and they probably dont even have most of this built yet so they can change their plans easily.
@@Avenger__One bro your definitely not doing anything wrong. I think about alot of these questions as well. You just seemed a bit anxious or presumptive if that makes sense. Reading my comment back now, I probably could have worded it better.
All this talk of orgs and space station building is a pipe dream unless they release it as a janky slide show. Just go play the dynamic event save Stanton at the distribution centre on microtech....janky slide show like all the other dynamic event from the last three years. until these events run 60+ butter smooth fps this crap is never gonna work.
Even if I were in a org that were large enough to defend a station, I'd quit. You'd need to assign people to 'stand watch'. I talk about the fun times of my military days....but few of those stories are about standing watch, and I don't want to re-live it. "Sorry honey, I have to stand watch that weekend." There is no way I can spin that. Very well spoken video. Thank you.
For the smaller teams there will have to be hired NPC's for extra help and security. Also having NPC's on your ship turrets while mining or delivering and when offline having NPC's walking perimeters of bases.
Hey, hey, hey. Meercatone here, we are Test Squadron, and we have zero relation to EVE’s Test Alliance. We may have an overlap of some members but we are in no way associated with that detritus. We are Test Squad, and anyone fearing our imminent takeover are mistaken… have you seen our streams? We’re inebriated more often than not so the only takeovers you need to worry about is the tram back to the habs from gloc bar… Our aurorahs will blot Out the sun too, so any sun tanning will be out Of the question
if a satellite goes off line it should trigger security to the satellite to reactivate. if the pirates would want to keep the satellite off line for as long as possible they have to stay there to distract security. if security is killed that should trigger a man hunt for pirate in the area and possibly missions for players. pirates should instead play the cat and mouse to keep the security out of reactivating the satellite
players should also use a stolen ship to destroy one of the security ships to trigger the manhunt and meet with a friend and dump the stolen ship and this can really mess up the pirates.
Yea, this concept works with “Theaters of War” but not so much for the PU. Although I’m not super opposed to CIG just letting us figure it out and us giving them the feedback once we play it, you make some very valid points. In another game called Empryon Galactic Survival they have a module you can build on your bases and stations called the “Offline Protection Module”. They may want to play that game and similar to see how that fits into the very concerns you mentioned.
Star Wars Galaxies had the best solution to this. When you set up a faction base, you had to set a vulnerability timer. You had to pick a 3 hour window every day in which the base was open for being attacked. It allowed you to pick times in which your group was most active. Other guilds could find your vulnerability timer, and plan accordingly. This led to epic fights for all involved and importantly it was fair.
This exactly THIS ... I remember it... and most importantly it was fun, even when we had small city we were not attacked but we oftne joined other friends who asked for help and we always knew what is prime time to be online so there is some action going on ... CIG is again making complicated systems
This sounds like a perfect solution, I hope this or something similar eventually gets implemented
literally just posted about this above, same exact mechanic in eve online (at one point)
It's odd, but I thought SC was using that classic vulnerability timer also to make those battles pre-arranged between parties. Naturally that makes no sense when the goal is to be able to steal resources though as those will most likely shipped away before the battle even starts.
I guess you can explain it as a firewall issue that opens the base up to hacking to bring down the security layers that will open it up to pvp. I don't think the window should close until someone activates those security layers back on. Similar to how the ghost hollow terminals have a cooldown so you can't withdraw money all the time
I think most people (with intelligence) were thinking this could only work if they realize dynamic meshing and everything is actually single shard.
Did I hear wrong? After watching the presentation multiple times. I came away with the impression. that EACH node of the shield relays from Global to the individual ones were there OWN SEPERATE king of the hill, All of which distribute tokens based on the size and importance. There by basically tallying up all of the, both small, and large scale PvP battles all orgs have had throughout the week and then assigning a winner. This distributes the output of the tokens across all sizes of conflict for any size group or org.
The intent being that, due to multiple org representation (being able to be affiliated with multiples orgs that they showed off with the new UI). Smaller groups and orgs can essentially fight for whichever of the larger orgs they would prefer to be affiliated with by engaging in PvP at whatever scale they are able to. and then also being extended the protection of the larger orgs. Much like it worked in Star Wars Galaxies. Which worked brilliantly BTW.
I think the shield tech was being touted as a way for a mega guild to essentially become the defacto controller of the system. giving them the ability to build an actual full on city that any and all smaller guilds can use as a hub to sell and trade at as well. I don't think the idea of the shield tech was to make it so that most guilds were competing for it at all. I think most players and guilds will work off of the fact that their org supports the current dominant org by fighting for them for tokens whenever online. There by being under their protection by default if they do choose to build a base in the system. (larger guilds will not wish to destroy the base of a smaller guild, say Avenger Squadron, when they are possibly one of their top token earners. That guild will either leave, or worse flip sides to another guild vying for control of the shield.) This makes highly skilled smaller guilds (Avenger Squadron) actually able to sell their services as mercenaries as well.
with their intent being that most players are going to operate unshielded bases, We will have to wait to see how they will address the balance of online/offline raiding. I too agree. Offline raiding is horrible and needs to not be an option. But I could see them tackling it a few different ways. First is the idea that the large guild that owns the shielded city, will have a duty to protect everyone's bases who fight for them. there by outsourcing defense of the system to players. Assuming all the active orgs in the system you are in come to your defense if attacked, that could make offline raiding barely acceptable. The other possibility comes with the fact that the planets are HUGE. how easy is it to even find someone's base. In particular, A specific guilds base that you want to attack. Will there be ways of dampening your bases signature as to hide it? Will you be able to place public beacons on bases that you want to have known publicly? All of this stuff is unknown and have a drastic impact on how this plays out.
This is correct, he is assuming wrong for some of this video
Another thing is its across all shards
The best way I can think, is to do it like Naval Action does it:
The base owners get to choose a 3 hour window in which their base is vulnerable to attack, outside of that window the base can not be damaged.
That way the owners get to at least chose after conversing with their org what time is best for everyone involved to be online if needed. and outside of that people can actually relax.
the feeling of "always online or else" is one of the worst feelings in gaming, period.
problem with that is it works both ways. if you give to much power to big orgs in protections then smaller groups of players cannot challenge them. Not sure how many survival games people play but there are always mega groups that basicly want to kill everyone else and take everything they can and as someone who has always been forced to deal with massive groups with very little manpower you either have to be way better in combat and shred through hordes of endless alt accounts or you have to hit them when its safe. a 3 hour window that orgs can choose doesnt do anything but make them able to 100% protect everything they have or just switch their raid hours if your group operates at a different time.
what will happen is orgs will be able to hire npc mercs and have automated defenses. wont be as strong as real players but is more than enough for smaller groups to deal with on top of also dealing with endless player accounts.
@@Marlax-101 yea its not a perfect solution but just the only one i think would really work. massive super zerg orgs I dont think will ever realistically be defeatable by smaller elitefits in situations like this. especially not now with master modes.
im gonna be honest ive never seen a game do this kind of thing well to the point it actually feels good to be a part of and not just a constant stressfest that burns out absolutely everybody involved besides the psychopaths with 50 accounts.
@@Marlax-101 Well, if you have a big org, there is no way small group or a single player would ever be able to challenge them. It can't ever be done.
Hopefully they'll implement an Eve like system where the base goes into siege mode. Giving orgs a chance to organize themselves it would make for grand gameplay and give us 9-5ers a chance.
Think about groups in other countries. For example the vast majority of German speaking players are in one timezone. English has worldwide coverage. But some language groups are stuck. Mechanics need to be in place to cover the 3am crowd.
I just think this type of gameplay is strictly for very large orgs. Just to add, to build a space station and large base is probably going to take a long time and a ton of resources to do if CIG doesn't make this pay to win and is only achievable by grinding out all the time sinks to do. A small org may take years to get to the point of a space station if that is the intention of this specific game loop. Now with that said a very large org will have players from all timezones vs a small one with most members from local timezones. Then again we'll only know until it's in game, I tend to stop focusing on speculation from CIG until we actually have it in hand.
Interestingly, what you describe from your (PvP'er) perspective, about "not being a fan" to being unable to effectively defend what you've worked hard for, and built, and own, because someone will look for the moment you're at the weakest and strike then, turning you to an underdog.. is EXACTLY the same reason why some (non-PvP'ers) are not a fan of having to fly to PvP zones to mine or haul, etc., because (esp now with the plans on best resources being in Pyro) that means they are facing exactly the same problem. They are not fan of being unable to defend, and risk all they have worked hard for, and own. So it would actually be nice for these two groups to come together on this point and communicate to CIG that this needs to be a game that is fun, AND rewarding to both playstyles. Not just one, or the other.
Thats not the same thing at all
@@LordBattleSmurf lmao
The PVPers are not going to come together on this. The PVPer, including this video, are only interested in leveling the playing field to their level.
You hit the nail on the head with this comment. Many people are not going to have the time to mine and deal with PVP.
Putting all of the best resources in systems like Pyro effectively make those resources only available to the largest orgs. They will lock down the entrances to systems at the wormholes and then the idea that Pyro is "high risk/high reward" goes out the window. It will become safer than NPC "safe" space. Just Like EVE, Null sec is safer that 1.0 Jita. The pirate/griefer will always find a loophole in the system.
@@chrislewis4810 Theres a huge difference between being attacked while you sleep (after actively defending and fighting other players for 16 hours out of a 24 hour day) and just being a p*ssy thats bad at the game and doesn't ever want to fight back or pay people to defend them while they are online doing activities. You already have your carebear kiddie pool areas of the gamr, you do NOT deserve equal rewards for playing with lower risk and risk vs reward was a huge component of SC since day 1 in 2012. 99% if video games are designed fir carebears especially MMOs, Star Citizen is NOT 1 of them. Stay in high security space and get your deservedly lower rewards if you don't want to compete vs other players- or go play Starfield or Elite Dangerous
When it comes to PvP you should listen to PvP players. There is a rich experience pool to use so that you arent reinventing the wheel in SC. If you want to protect your players from the true griefers out there you should listen to the veteran PvPers.
A couple notes:
-Player Space Stations is planned for a 1.0 release. CIG have gone on record saying that Dynamic Server Meshing is a requirement for 1.0's release.
-Base-building is coming out next year, and that's where half the problems Avenger raises will be found. But those problems will go away when the servers run more stably, NPC security forces are patrolling High Sec locations, and the current ship combat is ironed-out or replaced.
-CIG's 1.0 proposal is very EVE inspired, but definitely better tilted in the favor of defenders. Player camps will come with turrets and missiles for defense, which will offer a more robust defense for off-line players. But ganking while defenders are offline is a core part of the EVE experience.
-Assuming things get better with SC, based on the plans they've offered, I'd rather be ganked while asleep in SC than EVE.
-Only certain sized ships will be able to travel through atmosphere. That's going to skip a lot of the possible pain regular groups are going to have against Pirates.
-I am assuming that features like missile tracking working, competent NPC security forces, auto-turrets tracking, ship combat is revamped, and a more robust Server Meshing will be in the future of the game. Avenger here is assuming the opposite.
-The King of the Hill tokens thing is going to have problems no matter how you cut it. If it was per shard, then you would have people shard surfing trying to find the one shard they can grab. That's also going to favor the giga-orgs.
-When Org controls features are added to the game, I fully expect the power to shift dramatically. Then a larger shift when we get closer to 1.0 when there's greater players-per-shard. Meaning you won't just have Test, you'll have a bunch of groups bleeding each-other dry, freeing up space for the little guy.
-I'm expecting Shield Tokens to be player-to-player sellable. Could be wrong, but it seems silly to bar that obvious flow of trade.
-Assuming any level of combat balancing: Pirates and Raiders will have to risk losing real resources when they go on the attack. If they just zerg with Starter Ships, they'll get ripped apart by base defenses/NPC security. Having defenses be visual is going to force gankers to pick their targets more, recognizing that any kind of prolonged fight is going to heavily eat into their profits. Instead, I expect gankers to focus on cargo ships, instead of base raiding.
-There's a logistical cost to ganking. They can just get into medium fighters and warp onto a target, but anyone they lose is going to take a lot of time to replace. Low of 10 minutes, high of an hour. Plus each ship in Ganker's fleet has to be a person. 20-man wings will exist, don't get me wrong, and that should overwhelm most medium-sized bases and even larger I would bet, but I struggle to organize 5 people to play D&D. Anyone who can wrangle together that many people to gank, who won't then go after eachother, frankly deserves the riches of their spoils. Everyone else will have to warp-in with some sort of carrier that can replace fighters. Unique when compared to EVE, that carrier is a target the defenders can pretty much win instantly if they destroy.
-Death of a Space Man should discourage some reckless Goon Swarm-styled ganking. And I have to spit to get the taste out of my mouth, for mentioning that "feature".
I can't imagine death of a space man will do much to discourage someone with an LTI and an alt to offload all their valuables (or just an alt with an LTI combat ship), I don't really see whats to stop a group of a few players with LTI gladiuses (gladiai ??) from just attritioning and offline raiding the base to death while wearing the spawn suit
To be honest all i see it doing is making the difference between people that pledged for ships and who earned them even greater, and allowing "trolls" to just further hurt random people when they gank starting locations for shits and giggles
"Base building is coming out next year" my dude is still drinking the kool-aid
big copium enjoyer
Reply line by line.
-If anybody can get a mesh running like this, I think CIG will be the one, but we are still a long way away. (A single shard also does not sound like it is in their vision for 1.0)
-Npc need to be killable by the most novice player so unless they design an AI set for security forces that can challenge the top 15% of players and win it doesn't matter.
-EVE is a single world and therefore have the 24-hour combat problem resolved, for large clans if we have chards only the theory is the same, but combat is vastly different and will lead to chard raiders like in other MMO's.
-OK I have nothing here since you are fine restarting every day,
-Why pirate if I can just take everything you own. HAVE you ever played a PVP game.
-Refer to point number 2 and I will add here. If a much more competent AI is built all this will mean is that the best of the best will be criminals even in the perfect environment. You make the one mistake every wonabe makes. PVP is not inherently fair it is pure EVIL.
-OK maybe you have played some pvp
-Nope the little guy will have to ally with a bigger org just like in EVE.
-What org will sell immunity?
-Yip maybe you haven't played PVP. They are definitely going to take the entire base and do it until you leave for HIGH sec system.
-As someone that has been part of large orgs. They will arrange players to do a sustained attack 24 hours a day with very little problems. The management of these large orgs are impressive.
-Nope it will just be the bottom of the org structure where you are expected to be a target until proven worthy.
You will be shocked by the capability of these large orgs and what they can accomplish. I have been on both sides of this coin and what is laid out currently favors the Mega org.
good point
This system sounds like an utterly terrible way to deal with this tbh; just give us reinforcement timers on destroyable shield units, much like EVE's reinforcement timers, as for all their issues, they're a hell of a lot fairer & better mechanic-wise than this sh!t show
I think whatever system you make, people will form discord groups probably paid discord servers where people hop shards all day un till they are in the same shard as the discord they are in. And they agree to not attack anybody in the entire shard, these people won't even bother with the whole fake shield token blah blah. And if you play normally there is no chance in nine hells you will be comparable in power to these people. Because people will min max to the fastest riches whatever it is, so even people that don't know the discord stuff is going on will want to be in these "dead" shards where they aren't getting attacked for 10 hours straight. And the difference will be insane, they'll go to the shield KOTH thing and nobody shows up. And they'll be like omg i'm getting so many minutes in while in reality they are wasting their time because everyone in this shard is just printing money unprotected.
And then i think it's highly likely CIG will be like what the crap those discord servers are stealing our money. And they will start just straight up selling shields for IRL moneys like clash of clans.
So I'm pretty sure a whole lot is going to change in this system, like basically everything.
If i'm completely wrong, then what is stopping people from joining the ORG that won the KOTH last week lol?
Master Modes has effectively made SC suck. The game play I say of SQ 42 reminded me of the Halo game at Dave and Busters.
Rich Tyrer is going to double down on the logical fallacies
CIG will implement new systems, new systems will be exploited, cig will create new refined systems, these systems will get exploited, repeat until the game isn't fun anymore.
Solution: CIG will implement tools so the playerbase can use them; systems will be created with these tools by the playing community.
Always the same...just let the people figure out there own systems and give them the tools to be creative. That's the simulation of a space game CIG wants and the players are wanting to see.
"I can't get on 4 days in a row at 2am to defend" Reminds me of my time playing Ark. Australia will never let you sleep. (˘︵˘)
If your own station doesn't exist across all shards, how do you even get back to it. If it does exist across all shards. Impossible to defend.
A potential partial solution could be the following: ships are hard to mantain, in lore, they are in essence constantly operating when out of a dock, however bases dont need that much mantainance, a turret is just chilling until it detects an enemy. So base defenses could just be relatively cheap, were a medium based is STACKED with the firepower of a Javelin or whatever. Making raids (assuming death of a spaceman and working servers and AI) not very efficient most of the time
It's so complicated I hate it... if they can't explain endgame pvp in a single sentence and they have to use complicated words like shield shards fighting for shield base whatever i loose interests.. i'm simple minded person, deploy base, earn resources, and certain time be onliine to attack opposite players,
I don't even undrstand why should I fight for some invulnerability magical shield it's so stupid like a next level stupidity ... and every week... grinding for shields instead of actually forgming groups to take down playerbases what are they doing...
This would be a great use of that original concept we had for replacing NPCs with live players on a ship. Once you build the assets for your station (e.g., turrets, hanger ships, crew quarters) the system replaces live bodies with NPCs 24/7. So when I go to sleep my station is still being defended by the NPC crew who will arm the torrents and use every available fighter or ship while I'm not logged on. As an org leader, that should just be a set of settings that I get to do for this massive space station. As live players logon they replace the NPCs so there isn't technically an unfair advantage.
NPCs are in such a terrible state they can't defend themselfs... i would trust them to defend our super expensive small outpost that's for sure
@@dr.johnorr3341 as much as I'd prefer this game to be entirely player based, having Conan Exiles-esque NPC's manning the base, sounds even more desirable than NPC crews tbh, as well as less balance destabilising.
Even with dogsh!t AI, just knowing that you'd have some extra boots on the ground for players to grind through, would be a somewhat comforting thought & if they actually got the AI half competent, it could genuinely make for meaningful defense.
Losing a base or station should be because you lost a battle, I don't see why they are so determined to make only the largest groups (which are, by virtue of size, the best at defending against "offline raids") able to not be at risk from offline raids, Honestly feels like another instance of CIG overcomplicating what should be simple, and simplifying what should be in-depth and complicated
Unfortunately I think CIG is moving away from player skill based game play.
It's org skill based gameplay
Im far from the first to say this, but they are gonna have to limit org size.
Server issues dont bother me as dynamic meshing should fix that.
Also personally, i think you should never be able to atack the shield system, maybe if you do your org just gets blacklisted and blocked by the automated system or whatever. Your base cant be offline raied but the shield relay can? then so can the base...
Huh? Then why even have a shield system if you can't interact with it?
Limiting org size would be harsh on non-hardcore org. Some orgs actually have players with offline lives, so the size can be very large but few active users. See: the fatherhood in ED. There its ok, even expected, to be interrupted by IRL stuff all the time.
You forget the part of the consequence of losing your ships, and death of a spaceman.
You cant just respawn a ship, and be back within an hour. If so it takes alof of preparation, and sacrifices regarding your character.
And I think this will make it interesting regarding strategies all the way down to the tactical level.
And lastly, this system will be fleshed out, and more than likely change. As closer we become, and tests will be performed and we see what they learn from this.
Anyway this is End Game Orgs stuff. Sure it sucks for the lonely wolf player, or just a couple of buddies orgs. That will not get "true" protection. But again its not here yet, and CIG might change how this works. Or the universe will be so big, that you are just unlucky if a grifter or pirates find your base.. who knows
if dead of a spaceman still exist in CIG eyes....the 1.0 presentation is the opposite of a lot of think like death of a spaceman that CIG tell us sine years....that is the big prob...we can't trust CIG anymore for nothing!
So the solution would be offline raid protection
1. at least X people must be online for the base to be vulnerable.
2. max. X people can participate in the siege at the same time.
3. player structures can only be switched off temporarily
These are a few things I know from other games
THis was my soultion but add a cool down timer so orgs cant just "turn off" whenever they want. I would say a set time after the org either has enough people {we'll just say 10) or they activate a station defense pvp mission, but the station has to be defended for the set time period and it has to be a longer time period like 8 to 12 hours to allow orgs the ability to gather up, plan and attack.
Alt accounts circumvent this. Imagine you have 2 accounts, you send stuff to your second account from your org base, orgs log off from there so the base is "not" vulnerable.
this way you get to reap the benefits of getting your stuff and keeping your base safe.
Nah, EVE already figured this out. There are POSs (Player Owned Structure) which have a shield around it and requires fuel to run. You need to shoot down the shield and then the POS goes into "Reinforced" mode where it has 99.9% resist for everything on it's shiels. So basically immune. This reinforce period lasts max 42hours (depending on how much reinforce fuel is in the pos). After 42hours it runs out and needs to be refueld. So basically the players have 42 hours to prepare a defence fleet for that POS. Since eve is global it's a common occurrence that US corps shoot POS into reinforce at an inconvenient time for the defending EU corp and vice versa.
Eve doesn't do that though... Neither will SC.
I believe yall are putting to much into protecting your stuff. npcs will likely be available to protect areas while offline for a fee. Any protections you give a base can also be abused by the worst orgs and so you always need to have ways to attack and remove orgs with bad intentions.
i have been forced to fight mega orgs and tribes in games pritty much every time i played a survival game with very small groups and if those bases ever had immunity protections it would near impossible to deal any meaningful damage to their group and we would be forced to leave the game.
big orgs will have a lot of resources which means spare capital for Npc merc or automated defenses, Let alone ships like the nautalis which lay minefields and laser turret mines.
There is plenty of defenses orgs can use besides immunity. now if the station itself was immune to damage i would say you have to cut off its supply lines and starve them out but even that would be very difficult.
Well I’m just a humble hull c captain, I’m not looking forward to the needing to be in a mega org to survive either.
Spot on, with you 100%. SUGGESTION for CIG, offer a form of obtainable "Clocking shield" for bases, IF Nobody is there Activity & Heat signatures are non existent therefore the Base does not show in game, unless there is a high enough activity signal based on active player/s at the base, Edit: a larger base logically will need more active players to give off detectible Activity vs a small base. Really enjoy your Vids, perfect logic every time! 🚀
Not sure if you mentioned it... admittedly I was only half paying attention... but another issue with this is that since the shields are credit-based, that means that only the largest/most active 3 or 4 orgs are ever going to control it, since they will by default control the most resources.
Honestly, I was super jazzed on day 1, but when we got to this part, all I could think was "whelp, this basically destroys any smaller org". It was kind of disheartening.
I think that so long as they fix the threat posed by security forces the High/Medium/Low/Null security regions will work. If the UNN or whatever in game security respond from the start with a patrol Idris deploying 2 hornets and a hurricane and the AI for those ships are set to the highest tier of function/threat, then I think that will pose a threat to most small teams taking out a security relay or attacking players over an extended period of time. One on one the AI isn't a threat but when you add multiple types of ships attacking at the same time light fighters and interceptors will need to create distance and anything larger will be in real danger.
As for this king of the hill setup I think it wont be the worst thing so long as it's a Pyro specific feature. It's too half baked for something that exists in every system and shields don't make sense thematically anywhere else.
Yup, I agree with this assessment.
i think the answer is clear, this new setup NEEDS everyone in one server only. Not even instances of the same space
I think that you should just be able to build a bubble shield over your base that you have to keep up with resources/shield fuel bought with uec. The bigger your base gets and the more area the shield needs to cover, the more exponentially expensive it gets. Small base with 1~2 buildings and a landing pad? Solo players can upkeep the shield no problem playing 2 hours a day on average. Medium base with 4~5 buildings and 2 landing pads? Solo player averaging 5 hours a day can keep it up but would not have much if any money left over. Large scale base with 10+ buildings, garages, mining lasers, and landing pads? You'd need s small org with multiple players to keep it up.
This reduces chances of offline raiding and is much much easier to understand than the weird orbital shield bidding thing. Also doesn't leave solo players out to dry since its easy for people with not much time to keep up a safe little home in the verse. Most importantly, it prevents mega zergs from owning the shield station and extorting other players.
I agree that if things are implemented as planned, there will be issues with players taking advantage of time zones, and large organizations will be able to bully smaller entities.
This current design philosophy would only work if they create multiple PU servers (like servers in WoW). Each server would have e the same shards for server meshing, but each individual server would have their own iteration of each shard. This would be a solution to time zones, but wou,d require players to choose a single server for their character to be on effectively region locking the game with time zones.
My idea for how they can solve the org/player bullying issue could then be solved by first establishing differences between individual player housing and Impose limits on who can attack or interact with that housing, and then the same could be set up for orgs too.
For orgs, I think, if it could be quite simple, we can split orgs into different tiers of sizes, and then only allow orgs to declare war on orgs that are within the same size tier. For orgs that want to remain small but fight in larger wars, they could join an alliance with another org or groups of orgs. The system would then allow the alliance of smaller orgs to grow into a larger tier org and declare war on the larger orgs.
A few other ideas I have:
1. Allow players to join multiple orgs like in gw2. With the caveat being that if a player wishes to rep or be active in that org they must be orgless for 24 hours.
2. If org buffs or bonuses are a thing. Cig should look into balancing the buffs between different org tier sizes.
3. There are flaws to this as well, but make it so that orgs can only declare war on x number of orgs that scale with tier of orgs. A smaller size org might only be able to go to war with 3 orgs vs a larger org might not have restrictions.
4. The war stuff should only impact bases and not prevent people from playing the rest of the game freely.
Just an idea from some random guy.
Correct, it seems like the designers have the same approach for squadron and the MMO, but an MMO lives on when you sleep and work.
In an MMO it is more desirable that you take down the shields with a lot of firepower, which then creates a kind of impenetrable shield by using a special raw material, which then destroys the shield generator after 24 hours or a maximum of 48 hours.
it is therefore highly recommended that the enemy can only penetrate the station by hacking when those shields are down
If the installation of the new shield generator was successful, you can switch it on again after 3 hours charging time ( including refilling the material that served for the impenetrable shield, because that also partly serves for the start-up )
The enemy then has a few hours to get as many people as possible into your station, but once your shield works again, they can no longer send additional attackers.
Of course you still have to kill the enemies that are still in the station
and Of course you can stop a lot invaders by taking down as many ships that come close as possible.
let say, the eve version in a star citizen version
bad game design, but in my opinion, it only need refinement. And at that point, all of that is 100% speculation.
It would be easy to have local "shield bases" that only will work on "small base" in "specific area", so you'll win the seal tokens of your region and can provide protection on your small scale stuff, while "big stupid zerg orgs" (sorry for my hate input here) will slaughter themselves on the core to protect their multi-useless-stations.
100%. I think the hype is dying out and people are finally looking into the details and adding sharding complexities and realizing this system will literally destroy Star Citizen and lead to a massive player exodus. It doesn't work. The technology is simply not there ti make it work and it is extremely tilted to benefit massive orgs. If we think eve online is bad at gaining new players, Star Citizen will be legendary at driving people away.
I usually consider this guy to be a complete joke but I am on the same boat on this one.
I agree with A1 on this issue. The Seal Tokens should be tracked "per shard", and not "across all shards" like was proposed at CItcon. This will allow players that are actively competing with each other to **actually directly oppose each other** in real time, and not just grind their faces off & then hope that we out-played that invisible group on some other shard at the end of the week.
That is stupid
it should be a building/module in the base which can be hacked and disabled with a warning to the base owners who hold certain roles
winner takes all inevitably leads to monopoly
For those who aren't old enough to know, this kinda scenario happened with an old MMO, star wars galaxies. Players could build base structures that were able to be destroyed by players of the opposite faction and yeah it wasn't playable UNLESS you had a guild big enough there was 24/7 presence, it didn't work. Star cit will be a griefers paradise for player structures able to be destroyed it will fall flat on its face no one will care nor bother, because why should they?
The only real solution they could do would be things like defense turrets be able to be destroyed, and things like storage objects like SCU crates able to be stolen if players get access to something not locked down or held down in a locked down storage. That would be the only non griefer bait way vulnerable player structures could work in star cit. Besides that though player structures should not be able to be destroyed by any griefer who comes along to blow out a base because for the lulz, because the system will be a laughable failure if that ends up being the case.
You can purchase personal shields or go with upgraded shield tech in lawful zones. Simply put: don't build your base in lawless zones if you don't want it to be destroyed every time you log on. It's a really simple solution.
I think we should worry more about the lack of physics, poor game-world interaction, bad UI, awful map, flaccid flight model... you know.. the basics. One day we're gonna have ALL THIS!!!! 12 years later....
Lack of physics where?
My base fell through the planet 😂😂😂
@@TKanal3well ship get blown around like paper in wind that can’t knock player character over and explode just by being tapped.
@@Kainhand10 sounds like physics to me
Yeahball thatbisngonna to be address at 1.0, its just were in the middle of development and a lot of that stuff was contingent on squadren 42, which is almost done. So the current plan is awesome.
It doesnt matter what they said, after a year the dont know what they said...Galaxy....
Everyone laughed at me for getting a Nautilus, who is laughing now lol
I agree but have mixed feeling about offline raiding. If it is not allowed, bases can camp on the best resources and all they have to do to retain that space is not log on. It also encourages tons of bases littering the landscape as people can't raid and replace. This is what happens in Rust on private servers where MODs don't allow offline raiding. Its also a very frustrating experience for those that are more active players.
But as someone who has experienced my base being absolutely bodied while offline its not a good feeling. I do think that their needs to be a balance. Territory hoarding is also not a situation you want.
And you can have as many server shards in s single area as you want no? Isnt that the whole point?
Theres one way this will work and one way only: timers bro. Just like eve.
The game Conqueror's Blade has territory wars two times a week at set times where everyone is open to attack. Maybe they can do something like that.
They need to read about how the stations worked out in Eve online with siege mechanics. Your 100% correct I would get notifications at 2am that our station was under attack and I needed to log on to refill the fuel to keep the shields up after awhile I got tired of it and said screw it not worth it for a game.
That's why stations are end-game, large org features. If you don't want to deal with it, stick to the other content that is manageable. No one has to run a space station 24/7; it's a choice for end-game goals for large orgs.
For the NPC police they can always just add a tier that is overpowered broken.
maybe space stations that are in the surroundings of POI are permanent “visible" and "accessible”. Space stations that are more far away are in instanced zones, that are not accessible if a player/group is not online ...
im worried about sov warfare too lol i played eve online 16 years ihave reffed about a million pos lol
looks overcomplicated, and I can see a lot of DayZ or Rust style shenanigans going on I find it Ironic that the game is set so far in the future and you still have to press a button on your ship to get into it... what's wrong with a remote key fob?? we have had them in real life since the 90's
So selution for shields events. Check game life is feudal. So depending size of base / groop the Corporation been to choose 1-8 periods per week every time atack period 2- 4 hours. And enemy need to figure out attack the base by this time and seconded groop protec tha base . Just in this period can be destroy the base . So all groops need to choose the time attack. All the rest time every body will have immunities from destroy the base .
100% with you on this one, well said.
You brought up some really good points. Players should be able to have there own base shield generators period. When I watched the base building segment and he fired up the power plant sending a blue beam of energy into the air I thought why isn't that your shield? They could have different sizes based on the area of coverage you need and/or the ability to create large shield grids for the big bases by linking multiple shield generators together. They should be just another crafting blueprint you can obtain and craft. Look on the bright side, CIG could then sell boring vehicles so we can tunnel under the shield perimeters and use infiltration teams to take them down. If your fighter or ground vehicle can generate a shield why not your base? Snap out of it Cig..
You can have small shields, but if you want orbital shields you need the bigger relays.
It's not about giving the defender a fair chance. As you said this shield thing is only viable for the mega orgs. That means all orgs need to get bigger. Bigger orgs mean more players. So existing players will encourage new players to buy the game and play. RSI marketing will be happy. If you bring in enough players, you get rewarded with protection.
What happens if an org slowly takes over a shard and they just turn it into an alliance/org server then nobody could compete with them?
gotta find a way to limit org numbers, if they were all limited to say, 100 people, i think it would be way better
@@aguspuig6615 wont solve it since the big org can make simply shell/alt orgs
thats why shield is global, and thats why u need to go to their shard to destroy their sh!t
I don’t know if you read all these but I just wanted to say, after your space tomato interview I realized you have a very clear idea for a very interesting competitive PVP space game of your own. By no means am I suggesting you shouldn’t cover star citizen, but indie game development has become increasingly accessible and I think you could probably make something very cool ;)
I have thought of this as well and came up with a concept for it: have SEAL tokens be very hard to get and be available in limited amounts through other options, then give players a terminal at bases where higher ranking org members can flick a switch which will activate the shields for a cost of 1 token every 2 hours or so so when are in lower population you can turn it on and when you log on you can turn it off. Thus you can be attacked when you are online, but you also are able to do this pseudo rust upkeep thing where you farm for tokens one day and the next day when you are out of then you can turn it on. it might also be possible to give a 4+ hour cooldown from switching the shield on and off. This is what I have thought of but I could not be cooking with this one.
Being a veteran RUST player, I can garante all what you are saying about base raiding. Offlining is basically a way of life. Make it crazy expensive, make it take time, and have a ton of shields. Cap raiding with other micro games to spread out the warfare. I highly doubt they can get this working even with good and perfected server meshing tech. Design carefully and make realistic goals… don’t think SC will do any of this, but I will cheer them on to try 😅
My fleet is specifically aimed to delete player owned station. Javelin, idris m, polaris and the perseus will be my base bought exactly to slap people.
And yet you have no friends to crew those ships
It's never greifing if you bring a Reclaimer... Yeah you are 100% right the player needs control over when their vulnerable window is and i do not like the entire shield token bs system
After reading other peoples comments here, Im getting the impression that maybe larger base gameplay is intended specifically for the largest orgs and bigger alliances... for now.
As I understood, the shields are just to stop MOABs and bombing runs from destroying your buildings outright, but groups can still kick in the doors with a couple tanks, hack your cargo elevators and take some resources.
They said buildings would be very resilient, so it would be a huge waste of resources to destroy a small player outpost unless you knew they had valuable land or minerals.
If a small group of players is starting SC from scratch on patch 1.0 launch... it would probably make more sense for them to operate out of a station or a Levski for a good long time until they had a good enough supply chain, or the actual need, to set up a ground operation.
Shard manipulation warfare is inevitable. Denial of shard attacks and shard weaponization is a given. Just camp shards to thin out your attackers or concentrate your defenses. plus, Hornet level 5 versus Hornet level 1. How are they gonna balance this game lol. Buy it is skill based right? right?
With the server limitations they (still will) have, to whatever degree, encouraging large zerg numbers, such as through the token system, seems like it could be structurally self-defeating. I may be ignorant, but I would think they would want to go in the opposite direction design-wise.
npc is not a problem. Easy to make npc with 100% winrate all the time. It's exponential more difficult to make a NPC act and be percieved as a rl player.
Why cant I as a single player just use my asteroid hanger as my base... They Gave me an Asteroid hanger with my ship so surely I will get one? Surely? ;) Oh and when you broach this question with CIG please reinforce the fact that I need it to be large enough to house my Orion! :) Thank you for your support. and Thank you for you content.
They need to have NPC barracks where AI can defend (assuming they get server fps up). Global vs shard event doesn't matter, because groups like test could potentially invade each shard with how many players they have.
Nice Vid AV_1. Two years later and server meshing gets worse every year... Also current hangers cant persistently hold misc. items with out them floating away. I don't see them being able to support the added load of base building when we don't even have consistent inventory's. I don't see how this base building will work with their failed netcode. I must also take into account the things that do work such as HUDS and Vehicle combat get ruined with backwards design decisions (ex. mastermodes and new hollywood HUDS).
Why not just make the shield technology within the station, but they can’t be powered 24/7? Tier 1 lasts 8 hours per day, tier 2 lasts 10 hours, etc
I was a bit taken away, that they will only have 5 systems, I thought they will procedurally generate a few new explorable systems for players, where you have basically not much civilization, by some magic wormhole event. Also if players spam the surface with buildings, and defenses, exploration will basically die fast. I do think PvP should be a major part of the game and how to gain control, but I would actually think, for this token system, PvE or instanced PvP would be a better thing. I also wonder if Tokens can be sold.
Instanced -whatever- is the worst enemy of open world ... I used to enjoy many games until they introduced instanced pvp battleground it's so bad it shouldn't be even considered as an option
Tokens are automaitcally reset every week, so you cannot stack them to cheese the system.
hi , i understand your concern , however some are legit some are mixed up imo, first there is a lot of speculation , we ve got too little information for now to get worrie, second there is a need of gameplay for every scale , i play small org pve gameplay and i wont hope for getting a base on unlawful station and fight for shield seal, i rather farm for middle to large base on lawfull area and there is a large amount of gameplay for my type of org already! that nice that cig also thinking about 1k+ type of org that will need gameplay of there scale, and "they" also will bring gameplay and mission for every type of player that out of there org im sure! the problem here is that every one want everything, im sure some of baker dreaming about this kind of station made by themselves alone and imagine that they can manage it with mpc ia , but to me that is crap, (same for large capital ship imo but that out of topic), that will push people too play together to accomplish larger goal and that good too me. many will try with small org to do any type of base on unlawful system for sure though it will be a lot of player and lot of bases and the game still big so be lucky and your base may remain a fair amount of time before getting destroyed, but dont cry if you loose everything, this is the game and im fine with it ^^, i dont want offline protection or any of those shit , i want the game to feel challenging at some point. some goal are easy to accomplish and some are the top the mountain type and i might never reach those, and i am fine with that ;) , but its a promess of perceptive and rich gameplay possibility that every one would ever dream for a game right now so i pledge for that is not for every one and that perfect imo, and if i want to chill, i go on lawful system doing some mining on no mans land area and that will be perfect that it ^^ thank for sharing anyway , i like your content
They need to have timed PvP raids. Throne and liberty has a decent system where boonstones can be contested only by certain orgs based on ranking and only at certain time.
Other note, as far as I can tell, their presentation doesn't imply that the shield bases and relays will be directly applying the shields to your base, they're just how you earn the tokens to pay for shields. They didn't imply that there would be any way to interfere with the shields once they're applied for the week.
You can hack them though.
@@LuxTenebrae you can hack individual player built outposts and they can have differing levels of hack protection, the shields are surface regional and i'd imagine it gives you offline protection for the week so what you effectively get is a weekly or biweekly, whatever, immunity from getting raided in that given region in exchange for tokens, it's a clever idea because what it effectively means is if you're solo you want to setup shop next to the big org because it's more probable you're going to benefit from them winning the resetting global event, that's kind of the inverse of Rust, come to think of it you could even setup treaty's with the big org which in the event they lose offline protection on the sector for the week and they don't protect your outpost or it gets raided by them all the solo's can raid them back.
@@LuxTenebrae The player made ground based shield can be infiltrated on foot and hacked/disabled. The Seal tech shield is like a planetary shield in lawful space with full invulnerability for all your orgs owned bases and orbital station on that planet. There is a set of these relays and orbital stations for each planet. The core is just the controller that trades the tokens.
I think it's going to be a pure nightmare to balance all this out and at the same time provide a "fun" experience. It reminds me of the old DayZ where me and my friends used to wake each other up in the nighttime cause our bases was going to be raided. Then it comes to a point where a game stops beeing a game and more of a job. That is my biggest fear with Star Citizen 1.0......... i want to be able to just hop in and have fun fast.
Ooeeh i love the dayz part and pvp in it.
I don't think people will put their station in pyro... they will try to build it in the safest area wich will be annoying for pirates to destroy... the opposite scenario is just as problematic as the one you just discribe...infinite UEE idriss wave that come to defend the carebare station and at the end every org able to have a bengal is ridiculous... the right balance is gonna be hard to achieve
The potential abuses with base raiding and shards is one of my biggest concern and I was hoping this Citcon would give us answers, unfortunately we got none and I think it might be cause CIG doesn't know either. they probably came up with a cross shard planetary shield event cause they know some form of instancing or shard hop will have to happen when an area is too busy, so they wanted to add a mechanic to give big orgs the feeling they actually own a system in the world rather than in their alternate version of it
Its a simple as a button with a cool down. In my idea, the stations would have God Mode until the org actually wants to fight and turns off the God Mode for a minimum of 12 hours. When the org is done for the night, they turn off the God Mode, or they run the risk of being raided without an actual defense force.
@@fathead8933 Does the god mode need to be turned off after a while otherwise it runs out?
@@thecancermen245 I would say no because that would make a situation like “I went on vacation and lost everything” happen. I would say God Mode is the standard mode. Org activates a come attack me beacon and it’s set for x amount of time, then the station goes into cool down and when the last org member leaves the server the infrastructure either despawns or is in a constant GM state. That would allow for you to actually log off and not lose everything.
If the station didn’t despawn, could even have a station raid PVE where an org or player attacks your AI only. Then maybe steals some loot but doesn’t really destroy the station. Then you could have full on Org conflict where the stations aren’t immune to being destroyed. It would make actual warfare a legitimate thing and separate it from normal day to day, and a route only taken when there’s no other resort. Maybe make it that if you raid a base 3 times the org can legally declare war on you and war gives you “intel” updates like the tracking for bounty hunters.
On the auto cool down? I’d say 24 hours. It allows for a “I was stupid” but doesn’t allow for a complete yard sale of your stuff when you’re gone.
There’s always the possibility of making GM the default until war is declared and until there’s a peace treaty between the orgs, they have to defend the station.
The problem with doing it by shard is that then your property has to be by shard. It has to despawn when you leave and follow you to whatever shard you join (like Fallout 76 bases), but how do they handle that when we’re logging in? What happens if the shard that your org is controlling is full and you want to log in? Do you log into a shard with all your stuff unprotected? Can you just not log in? How would they handle that?
Also, the phrase “nip this in the bud” is a gardening metaphor. Cut off the flower (in the bud) before it can bloom. No butts required.
you nipped that in the butt [sic]
They'll most likely have a dedicated station combat server. Think the tiny stutter when you head into the different regions around the Vinewood sign and fort Zancudo on GTAV. You have no idea you just hit a load screen but you actually did type of thing.
In Planetside 2 devs countered the dominance of zergfits to tag bases(we can compare it to the SC token system) implementing a system that only take the 15 bests players of EACH teams (so with the best score) to determinate who win what so a big team with alot of players can't just stupidly dominate regardless of the impact ratio of his players, they also put out some kind of score in the equation to limite stat pad(fake revive to have big fake score) they does that because one year they implemented an official competitive format where only the teams with the best score could qualify to the competition. The problem was that close to only zergfits with atrocious level got qualified and little teams with good level and interested by the format got put on the side... So they could do a system inspired by this when there is competitive mecanics in the game. As an aside on Star Citizen i didn't even think to have an orbital base. It's too big for my team but it's not a problem for us. We will probably play in an alliance and try to impact as much as we can like this and it will be ok. I don't think that only the "individual skill" or "micro skill" of little try hard group should be rewarded in "any situations" the interest of having big numbers is also to know how to be impactfull with it. And it can feel easy because yeah saturation by number is the most powerfull thing in this kind of game or Planetside 2 but the reality is that only the best zergfit supported with the best team will be able to sustain in the hardest area. And at some point the assymetry provided by zergfit is what make this kind of game and fights fucking cool. It's fucking cool to manage team that are technically 10000time stronger than you in number and you can't have this feeling in so much games. Overall and regardless of it's different dynamic and mitigate success, Planetside 2 is a good MMO FPS to understand some things that could happen in SC, good or bad.
And for the secured system i think they can just artificialy overpowered the IA damages and shit if you are not sufficiently efficient to do your job in time. But yeah there is alot of question with all of this but overall I think it will be ok. A very chaotic start but everyone and every teams will took the place they deserve in the long time run.
New world has a pretty cool instanced attack defense system with their wars. I think that would be cool, but that wouldn't really be Star citizen. Probably would have to do raid windows.
I have a feeling CIG has thought about all of these issues and they will come up with a fair solution. Especially having to worry about your base 24/7. All we can do right now is speculate. We need to have it in our hands before we can come to any conclusions about it being both fun and fair. I'm sure Jared will provide a lot more details in the ISC's in the coming months.
My other thoughts are that NPC's in high sec locations are NOT going to be the brain-dead, easily destroyed, chumps we have been dealing with until now. I think they will be vastly OP to the point not even ace PVP pilots will have a hard time defeating them.
I heard this too often already so time to return the favour: Worried about PvP offfline raids?
HIRE ESCORTS!
There, job done. Hire somebody to babysit when you go offline.
you will fear the HOBO armada!
At the end of the day, CIG is going to have to figure out how to instance a lot of these mechanics on scheduled timers. No way to do this in the openwolrd
Nah, it's really fine. Notice what the caveats are here: it applies to lawless systems. If you don't want to deal with 24/7 sieges, do not build in lawless zones .If you are a sweaty base-building sweat-lord, then have at it in trying to control Pyro/Nyx.
I'm calling it now, any player base in Pyro will be destroyed soon after it gets discovered unless it's owned by one of the dominant orgs that can pay the SEAL tokens. It'll be a ravaged wasteland.
Sounds like what Pyro should be. 😁
It’ll be unaligned/neutral system to system warfare and probably two to three at best in a system.
yeah, I've been saying since last year, the best defense of a base is gonna be how hidden it is
Won't there be npc hires by then? I don't think you would need a lot of people to man this network. Just a team of bio's at key posts, some npc's hires, some engineers for repair and fires. Maybe some repair drones. Some fighters, bio's and npc's and maybe some internal ground security. I'm guessing a lot will be automated. And you could use allies. Building the resources and resource network would be the basis of the people. Everyone protecting it's own shop.
Hmm... all seems like speculation to me.
You seem to be forgetting dynamic server meshing, remember the demo? where we had 3 servers for 3 parts of the same hallway, with each person being able to interact with people on different servers. The limitation will be how much computers can render on screen, where you might be looking at 50 severs worth of players.
IIRC the way they want to get around the limit number of players per shard is by dynamically adjusting shard sizes. Meaning if you have 100 players on a station and that number is the maximum per shard then when you arrive with a 5 man strike team you will not be denied access but instead the server will divide the station into multiple shards. They have demonstrated the tech that shows how players in different shards can see and interact with each other.
The biggest problem with the current comm relay system is that they never come back online without player intervention. The relays either need to have an auto-restart feature or else trigger a police response to re-activate them if they've been down too long. Additionally, player bases should have the option of building and maintaining their own comm relays along with static defenses.
Nah. Need to mine certain minerals in order to craft up a temporary shield. But these shields take a few days to complete.
Giving CIG the benefit of the doubt here. What if: Raids were limited to maybe 500 people, 250 per side (maybe more, maybe less). 1 hour prior to the raid, the current system owned occupants would be removed from the battlegrounds area (the org's space station due to an impending attack) and that point would no longer be a quantum point for org members unless they are on the Defender list. This would allow the defenders 1 hour to get their guys there and in position before the raid starts. When the time hits, the attackers would then have that space station as a quantum marker that they can jump to, and obviously it would put them out a bit further when they jump. Aside from that, anyone who happens to wander into the area of the space station could attack, but couldnt destroy the station.
I think there's a lot of variables here. CIG didnt really outline the plan in detail so we dont really know exactly how things are going to work yet, we just have a very generalized idea that omits almost all details. I do, however, like the idea of this video in that its telling CIG how NOT to do it, and giving them insight on a lot of details into why. Its very early on and they probably dont even have most of this built yet so they can change their plans easily.
Stations are the PvP endgame.
There still are tons of base rading and pvp below the station/ bengal level.
Dude. Dont torture yourself. Its just a design document. This is nowhere near production. This is gonna change.
Just asking questions brother
@@Avenger__One bro your definitely not doing anything wrong. I think about alot of these questions as well. You just seemed a bit anxious or presumptive if that makes sense. Reading my comment back now, I probably could have worded it better.
All this talk of orgs and space station building is a pipe dream unless they release it as a janky slide show.
Just go play the dynamic event save Stanton at the distribution centre on microtech....janky slide show like all the other dynamic event from the last three years. until these events run 60+ butter smooth fps this crap is never gonna work.
Even if I were in a org that were large enough to defend a station, I'd quit. You'd need to assign people to 'stand watch'. I talk about the fun times of my military days....but few of those stories are about standing watch, and I don't want to re-live it. "Sorry honey, I have to stand watch that weekend." There is no way I can spin that.
Very well spoken video. Thank you.
This game is just a space pirate simulator
For the smaller teams there will have to be hired NPC's for extra help and security. Also having NPC's on your ship turrets while mining or delivering and when offline having NPC's walking perimeters of bases.
Hey, hey, hey. Meercatone here, we are Test Squadron, and we have zero relation to EVE’s Test Alliance. We may have an overlap of some members but we are in no way associated with that detritus. We are Test Squad, and anyone fearing our imminent takeover are mistaken… have you seen our streams? We’re inebriated more often than not so the only takeovers you need to worry about is the tram back to the habs from gloc bar… Our aurorahs will blot Out the sun too, so any sun tanning will be out
Of the question
explanation starts at 4:10
if a satellite goes off line it should trigger security to the satellite to reactivate. if the pirates would want to keep the satellite off line for as long as possible they have to stay there to distract security. if security is killed that should trigger a man hunt for pirate in the area and possibly missions for players. pirates should instead play the cat and mouse to keep the security out of reactivating the satellite
players should also use a stolen ship to destroy one of the security ships to trigger the manhunt and meet with a friend and dump the stolen ship and this can really mess up the pirates.
Yea, this concept works with “Theaters of War” but not so much for the PU. Although I’m not super opposed to CIG just letting us figure it out and us giving them the feedback once we play it, you make some very valid points. In another game called Empryon Galactic Survival they have a module you can build on your bases and stations called the “Offline Protection Module”. They may want to play that game and similar to see how that fits into the very concerns you mentioned.