First time I've ever hear Paul say something I can't agree with and I sold CD transports for years, in a shop. Owned seven as well. The DAC matters more, yes. But to use any old cd-spinner and expect to get the best from a top DAC is foolhardy. The DAC will not be 'fed' properly and its error correction circuits will need to step in, adding noise. The good news is companies like Cambridge and Audiolab are making transports now that not only are good enough to make a $3000+ DAC sing but are a pleasure to use and can be had for under $500.
I was running a new $800 Marantz CD player thru a PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell Dac. I didn't really think it sounded any better than when I bypassed the DAC. Replaced the Marantz with a $600 Audiolab 6000 CDT. It was an unbelievable improvement. In my opinion, Paul is all wet on this one.
The complication is always adding SACD to the discussion. If you want access to that level of sound quality you need to get one of the few transports that include it. But while you still would use the superior external DAC for all PCM files, the SACD would come out of the internal DAC only.
Yes, the DAC makes a huge difference but you don’t have to spend a fortune to make that difference. For example a $100 Topping D10s will get you most of the way there and then to improve on that you start spending disproportionate amounts of money for very little improvement.
@@ZeusTheTornado Depends on the rest of your system, Steve Huff did a comparison between a $500 DAC and a $30,000 DAC, and the difference was shocking, even over youtube...I agree if the rest of your system is like 5k or so...
@@drewpknutz1410 Maybe, there are $500 (and much higher) DAC's that don't perform very good, there are websites dedicated to the measurements of such devices and some you can see they just suck. With well-made DAC's there is a point in which the only benefits are in the inaudible region
To a point I agree. People fail to realize that most people have amplifiers and speakers that will allow say a Modi to be about the best they’re gonna get, which is a little better or the same as a few hundred dollar CD player, more or less. Also, the different audio formats have different capabilities and different associated costs for quality. I’m sure there are CD’s that contain poor enough recordings that a more expensive DAC wouldn’t matter either, and don’t even mention lossy formats or bluetooth lol
I build the PlayStation 1 CD-player mod. I guess this would be comparable to this. A mediocre transport with a good DAC (at the time). It held up when comparing it to a recent Cambridge Audio transport and separate DAC at an audio shop. The conclusion of the owner and I was that the sound was different, but one was not really worse.
A decent transport is not that expensive and in my case made a difference. Before the dedicated spinner I had a very good REGA cd player, but an Audiolab 6000T with my LKS dac sounds better. I think is worth trying👂
Experience has proven this advice to be wise. The DAC, in many ways, is the music maker of a digital system, and I have heard disproportionate impact of emphasizing it in the chain. An Ayre Acoustics DAC convinced me of this after real world A/B work because it was so much more natural than what I'd heard before.
Those are for people with $20,000.00+ amps and probably at least $50,000 invested in their source+DAC+amp+speaker setup. If I had that kind of money invested in my sound system, the 3k power conditioner and $500 power cable would not be a stretch to get. Do you need them to have a great sound experience? No. Do some people have use for them in their setup? Yes.
Sage advice!! I have a whole slew of CD & DVD units from years past. Ive been meaning to compare their performance as standalone transports to my newest Sony UBP X800. Nevertheless, Sony ES units from the 90's w/onboard DAC can still give current hi-dollar players a run for their money IMHO
My old Pioneer Elite DVD player was $7 at Goodwill and handles SACDs well and it has a digital output to use with my DAC. I just don't have the level of equipment where I think I would ever hear a difference in transports. Also don't think most people need to spend thousands on a DAC. I have a Modi+ and it sounds fantastic.
Man, you got a great deal on the Pioneer Elite. I have two Modis...a 3+ (AKM 4490 chip based) and a 3E (ESS chip based) and they both do fine, one in my den and one in my bedroom. But for my living room "end game" system, I do want more. My budget for a DAC is likely no more than $1000. I can't see spending $2000 on a DAC which is more than my preamp. Looking at DACs in that range from SMSL or Denafrips and will call it a day. It seems DACs are still changing fast. Some are chip based, some are FPGA (chip based (like the Chord Quetest and PS Audio's offering) but with custom programming (tweaking) in how the D to A is done), and the latest popular ones using the old R2R architectures. They all sound different, and indeed the design and engineering done, the quality of the output stage and power supplies used can make as much of a difference as whatever architecture is used. The cool thing about FPGA ones is that you can get updates from the manufacturers as they do more tweaking (if they will do that) to get even better sound quality. Since most of us can't go somewhere and audition a DAC, we are left with listening to the advice given here on TH-cam and other audio forums like Audiogon.
After 40 year experience in my home with Transport and Dacs,I will advise to consider Transport very important,but off course also a good DAC.Poor Dac is a disaster at all,but poor Transport cut the final performance of Nice Dac.My opinion is to balance both costs.Also to read a SACD layer you need a serious Transport as I own ( SONY SCD-1 )
Speaking of digital...can you please provide detail on that lovely turntable and related components. All info greatly appreciated. With thanks. Cheers!
Is the same if you compare Formula 1 car.Powerfull Engine is like a DAC but you need a wonderfull Frame and Tyre to drive into the circuit.So my opinion is yes DAC is very important but not more than Transport Drive.
One route worth exploring is to not to put all your money in the DAC, but spend half on a much better CD Player and the other half on an excellent DAC that can be had for $1k. You would then have 2 sound flavors to listen to and you may even prefer the sound of the good CD Player over the sound of the DAC.
The answer is: it depends! You can spend a thousand pounds on a standalone DA, or you can buy an SACD player with an equally good built-in DAC for a thousand pounds. Do your research, and also hit eBay for second hand high-end SACD players. I use a Denon DCD1600NE because it has a fab DAC (PCM1795) and I love SACDs (you can't send SACD over digital on anything but the most expensive transports). Then just sit back and enjoy - the incremental "improvements" you may or not hear with DACS costing thousands are just not worth the investment - and I have to say that my premium silver Denon is £1200 of sexy.
"Do your research, and also hit eBay for second hand high-end SACD players" what? an used and second hand device? so much glamour, petulance, audiophilia and high-end components in a life of High Quality Audio to think about a *second hand used device?* where is that supremacy of audiophiles have? to buy an *used* device?
@@georgemartinezza Not entirely sure what point you're trying to make. I'm perfectly happy buying good quality equipment second hand if it means I don't have to shell out brand-new prices. It's always been a feature of high-end gear that the after-market is replete with people who sell on when they upgrade or just change components.
If you connect with optical the transport really should not matter all that much. I am assuming the CD players aren't the bottom of the range cost handicapped models.
I see you've taken my advice! You've put a baffle on your air conditioning how's that working out!? Did you do the roof as well? Merry Christmas! What is on Paul's Santa list this year.🤔
Thomas should just buy the best Oppo player he can afford. They are *hands down* the best value out there and PSA use an Oppo disc transport in their $6500 box!
@@Mark-lq3sb PSA purchased all of Oppo's transports (many hundreds) when they stopped marketing disc players! If you have one, look inside (if you dare).
@@digggerrjones7345 The fact that PS Audio bought Oppo's to use in their older transport is no secret. I'm sure they bought up the last of the Oppo's inventory supply for warrantee replacement on their older transport. Now, here's an update for you! PS Audio's newer transport *does not use the Oppo.* ...and yes, I do own their older transport with the Oppo. Plan on trading it in on their newer transport.
For a transport the output is data and unless it’s a really bad one introducing data errors, you have zero audible differences between them. A book stored on a CD also doesn’t become a better book by some expensive transport. Data is data as long as it’s not broken data.
Exactly. Maybe one thing to look out for is if the digital out on the transport is not well implemented, maybe it adds jitter and distortion. The optical out of the PS4 is not good, for example
@@ZeusTheTornado PS4 is a gaming console and games won’t run with data errors. It’s possible they made engineering mistakes for the TOSLINK output but the CD drive itself can not output errors on an otherwise good CD. If the TOSLINK clock in the PS4 is with varying clock jitter and the DAC is poorly designed to cope with it, you will get a problem. For gaming, low latency on the audio is very important and thus you can’t have long buffers.
@@ThinkingBetter Data and audio CD have entirely different data structures. There is error correction data on data CDs and audio CDs do not have timing information, they are entirely reliant on the drive spinning with the precise speed for any given part of the track... there is a lot going on when reading audio, which is why there are special precision drives like the Philips CD Pro family of drives, which you find in higher end CD players. CD drives do output errors and the ones in a cheap Walmart CD player to a much greater extent, which is why drives like the Philips exist.
No, you will not. The data will be the same. Of course if you have a scratched CD and the player needs to repair the data errors, you might hear a difference, so don’t scratch your CDs. A book stores on a CD discs also don’t get better on a more expensive transport. Data is data. You can save more than 10 CDs on a US$2 8GB USB flash drive and it will sound as good as a US$20,000 snake oil CD transport unless your CD is scratched, cause then your US$2 USB flash drive will win.
@@lloydstout7901 No I don’t forget that. The TOSLINK standard is an optical one-way data transfer protocol and although it’s synchronous to the music sample rate, any good DAC will buffer enough data packets to run the DAC clock in a stable way with no jitter using its own clock. In 1997 I was engineering some product where we discovered jitter during the test phase and had to fix it. Jitter is audible only when bad engineering is involved.
I thought a CD player was a CD player. maybe a DVD player is a DVD player. in more than 40 years I've never heard "transport", maybe *transport* is one of the invented words just fo follow the trend, (and I know what kind of people follow trends)
@@georgemartinezza CD player has the digital to analog player built in and no way to access the raw digital data. A transport has a SPDIF or optical digital output, and may or may not have standard RCA jacks.
@@Mark-lq3sb thas't the best thing to do: search, compare, get info, look around for more, *instead believe and trust as a blind zombie* the first thing someone say.
First time I've ever hear Paul say something I can't agree with and I sold CD transports for years, in a shop. Owned seven as well. The DAC matters more, yes. But to use any old cd-spinner and expect to get the best from a top DAC is foolhardy. The DAC will not be 'fed' properly and its error correction circuits will need to step in, adding noise. The good news is companies like Cambridge and Audiolab are making transports now that not only are good enough to make a $3000+ DAC sing but are a pleasure to use and can be had for under $500.
Roksan also has a new model near that price range.
Thanks for pointing out the differences and what will give us the best bang for our bucks.
I was running a new $800 Marantz CD player thru a PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell Dac. I didn't really think it sounded any better than when I bypassed the DAC. Replaced the Marantz with a $600 Audiolab 6000 CDT. It was an unbelievable improvement. In my opinion, Paul is all wet on this one.
The complication is always adding SACD to the discussion. If you want access to that level of sound quality you need to get one of the few transports that include it. But while you still would use the superior external DAC for all PCM files, the SACD would come out of the internal DAC only.
P, Thank you for your wisdom. I am on the right path. Best, D.
Yes, the DAC makes a huge difference but you don’t have to spend a fortune to make that difference. For example a $100 Topping D10s will get you most of the way there and then to improve on that you start spending disproportionate amounts of money for very little improvement.
I agree, DACs are so good today in the 100-250$ range that there's no need whatsoever to spend more
@@ZeusTheTornado Depends on the rest of your system, Steve Huff did a comparison between a $500 DAC and a $30,000 DAC, and the difference was shocking, even over youtube...I agree if the rest of your system is like 5k or so...
@@drewpknutz1410 Maybe, there are $500 (and much higher) DAC's that don't perform very good, there are websites dedicated to the measurements of such devices and some you can see they just suck. With well-made DAC's there is a point in which the only benefits are in the inaudible region
To a point I agree. People fail to realize that most people have amplifiers and speakers that will allow say a Modi to be about the best they’re gonna get, which is a little better or the same as a few hundred dollar CD player, more or less. Also, the different audio formats have different capabilities and different associated costs for quality. I’m sure there are CD’s that contain poor enough recordings that a more expensive DAC wouldn’t matter either,
and don’t even mention lossy formats or bluetooth lol
@@drewpknutz1410 If you can afford a $30,000 DAC then you probably won't be looking at one at $500 😁
I build the PlayStation 1 CD-player mod. I guess this would be comparable to this. A mediocre transport with a good DAC (at the time). It held up when comparing it to a recent Cambridge Audio transport and separate DAC at an audio shop. The conclusion of the owner and I was that the sound was different, but one was not really worse.
A decent transport is not that expensive and in my case made a difference. Before the dedicated spinner I had a very good REGA cd player, but an Audiolab 6000T with my LKS dac sounds better. I think is worth trying👂
Experience has proven this advice to be wise. The DAC, in many ways, is the music maker of a digital system, and I have heard disproportionate impact of emphasizing it in the chain. An Ayre Acoustics DAC convinced me of this after real world A/B work because it was so much more natural than what I'd heard before.
Don’t forget the $3,000.00 “Power Conditioner” plus a $500.00 power cable.
Those are for people with $20,000.00+ amps and probably at least $50,000 invested in their source+DAC+amp+speaker setup.
If I had that kind of money invested in my sound system, the 3k power conditioner and $500 power cable would not be a stretch to get.
Do you need them to have a great sound experience? No.
Do some people have use for them in their setup? Yes.
Sage advice!! I have a whole slew of CD & DVD units from years past. Ive been meaning to compare their performance as standalone transports to my newest Sony UBP X800. Nevertheless, Sony ES units from the 90's w/onboard DAC can still give current hi-dollar players a run for their money IMHO
That closing pan over the employees had me going with that huge dog until I realized it was Nipper, lol.
My old Pioneer Elite DVD player was $7 at Goodwill and handles SACDs well and it has a digital output to use with my DAC. I just don't have the level of equipment where I think I would ever hear a difference in transports. Also don't think most people need to spend thousands on a DAC. I have a Modi+ and it sounds fantastic.
Man, you got a great deal on the Pioneer Elite. I have two Modis...a 3+ (AKM 4490 chip based) and a 3E (ESS chip based) and they both do fine, one in my den and one in my bedroom. But for my living room "end game" system, I do want more. My budget for a DAC is likely no more than $1000. I can't see spending $2000 on a DAC which is more than my preamp.
Looking at DACs in that range from SMSL or Denafrips and will call it a day. It seems DACs are still changing fast. Some are chip based, some are FPGA (chip based (like the Chord Quetest and PS Audio's offering) but with custom programming (tweaking) in how the D to A is done), and the latest popular ones using the old R2R architectures. They all sound different, and indeed the design and engineering done, the quality of the output stage and power supplies used can make as much of a difference as whatever architecture is used. The cool thing about FPGA ones is that you can get updates from the manufacturers as they do more tweaking (if they will do that) to get even better sound quality.
Since most of us can't go somewhere and audition a DAC, we are left with listening to the advice given here on TH-cam and other audio forums like Audiogon.
I've got a pretty good tube dac connected to a very old cheap pioneer cd player. It's sound very good when the recording is good.
you have found a good way to enjoy your music. you play cd's and the converter does the job. easy : )
_when the recording is good_ yes, it is also.
The Accuphase DP-1000 and DP1000
After 40 year experience in my home with Transport and Dacs,I will advise to consider Transport very important,but off course also a good DAC.Poor Dac is a disaster at all,but poor Transport cut the final performance of Nice Dac.My opinion is to balance both costs.Also to read a SACD layer you need a serious Transport as I own ( SONY SCD-1 )
@paulmcgowanpsaudio --- Why is the transport black when all the other components are white?
Speaking of digital...can you please provide detail on that lovely turntable and related components. All info greatly appreciated. With thanks. Cheers!
Go for a good DAC, but pay attention that it is not a PS Audio one, because they are very bad.
Is the same if you compare Formula 1 car.Powerfull Engine is like a DAC but you need a wonderfull Frame and Tyre to drive into the circuit.So my opinion is yes DAC is very important but not more than Transport Drive.
Buy a Topping D10 or SMSL D0600 great transparent measuring dacs for $100.
question here: i have topping D10 but how you connect to cdplayer to amplifier? since topping have no power source supply? tnx
Someone once told me, "Its just 1s and 0s" lol
One route worth exploring is to not to put all your money in the DAC, but spend half on a much better CD Player and the other half on an excellent DAC that can be had for $1k. You would then have 2 sound flavors to listen to and you may even prefer the sound of the good CD Player over the sound of the DAC.
The answer is: it depends! You can spend a thousand pounds on a standalone DA, or you can buy an SACD player with an equally good built-in DAC for a thousand pounds. Do your research, and also hit eBay for second hand high-end SACD players. I use a Denon DCD1600NE because it has a fab DAC (PCM1795) and I love SACDs (you can't send SACD over digital on anything but the most expensive transports). Then just sit back and enjoy - the incremental "improvements" you may or not hear with DACS costing thousands are just not worth the investment - and I have to say that my premium silver Denon is £1200 of sexy.
"Do your research, and also hit eBay for second hand high-end SACD players"
what? an used and second hand device?
so much glamour, petulance, audiophilia and high-end components in a life of High Quality Audio to think about a *second hand used device?*
where is that supremacy of audiophiles have? to buy an *used* device?
@@georgemartinezza Not entirely sure what point you're trying to make. I'm perfectly happy buying good quality equipment second hand if it means I don't have to shell out brand-new prices. It's always been a feature of high-end gear that the after-market is replete with people who sell on when they upgrade or just change components.
If you connect with optical the transport really should not matter all that much. I am assuming the CD players aren't the bottom of the range cost handicapped models.
I see you've taken my advice! You've put a baffle on your air conditioning how's that working out!? Did you do the roof as well? Merry Christmas!
What is on Paul's Santa list this year.🤔
Better that it be all in one box, throw away the cheap transport, get a sondek cd12
@Lloyd Stout that's a fish
@@geddylee501 That must be one hell of a tasty fish for $13,500usd.
@@Mark-lq3sb was yes, not available anymore -(
@@geddylee501
Yes, available. Hand built in the Netherlands. Just don't try to eat it.
Like, gracias.
Thomas should just buy the best Oppo player he can afford. They are *hands down* the best value out there and PSA use an Oppo disc transport in their $6500 box!
Oppo disc transport, can't anymore, discontinued. That's why the new PS Audio SACD transport.
@@Mark-lq3sb PSA purchased all of Oppo's transports (many hundreds) when they stopped marketing disc players! If you have one, look inside (if you dare).
@@digggerrjones7345
The fact that PS Audio bought Oppo's to use in their older transport is no secret. I'm sure they bought up the last of the Oppo's inventory supply for warrantee replacement on their older transport. Now, here's an update for you! PS Audio's newer transport *does not use the Oppo.*
...and yes, I do own their older transport with the Oppo. Plan on trading it in on their newer transport.
💖💝💗❤️
For a transport the output is data and unless it’s a really bad one introducing data errors, you have zero audible differences between them. A book stored on a CD also doesn’t become a better book by some expensive transport. Data is data as long as it’s not broken data.
Exactly. Maybe one thing to look out for is if the digital out on the transport is not well implemented, maybe it adds jitter and distortion. The optical out of the PS4 is not good, for example
@@ZeusTheTornado PS4 is a gaming console and games won’t run with data errors. It’s possible they made engineering mistakes for the TOSLINK output but the CD drive itself can not output errors on an otherwise good CD. If the TOSLINK clock in the PS4 is with varying clock jitter and the DAC is poorly designed to cope with it, you will get a problem. For gaming, low latency on the audio is very important and thus you can’t have long buffers.
@@ThinkingBetter Yeah, I guess you're right
@@ThinkingBetter Data and audio CD have entirely different data structures. There is error correction data on data CDs and audio CDs do not have timing information, they are entirely reliant on the drive spinning with the precise speed for any given part of the track... there is a lot going on when reading audio, which is why there are special precision drives like the Philips CD Pro family of drives, which you find in higher end CD players. CD drives do output errors and the ones in a cheap Walmart CD player to a much greater extent, which is why drives like the Philips exist.
ha ahha kick my knee.
more pathetic it can't be
*TRANSPORT*
so much years ago the name was *player* .
I have a mac laptop to a miniDSP 2x4hd via usb to my active 2 way speaker can I add a DAC does it make sense
The mini DSP is a DAC.
your new Digital to Analog Converter should be so a better one with good specifications, and don't forget the goos speakers. : )
Well that answer seems pretty unambiguous, Paul.
Even with a mediocre $600 DAC you will hear a difference between a $30 CD transport and a $600 CD transport.
No, you will not. The data will be the same. Of course if you have a scratched CD and the player needs to repair the data errors, you might hear a difference, so don’t scratch your CDs. A book stores on a CD discs also don’t get better on a more expensive transport. Data is data. You can save more than 10 CDs on a US$2 8GB USB flash drive and it will sound as good as a US$20,000 snake oil CD transport unless your CD is scratched, cause then your US$2 USB flash drive will win.
@@lloydstout7901 No I don’t forget that. The TOSLINK standard is an optical one-way data transfer protocol and although it’s synchronous to the music sample rate, any good DAC will buffer enough data packets to run the DAC clock in a stable way with no jitter using its own clock. In 1997 I was engineering some product where we discovered jitter during the test phase and had to fix it. Jitter is audible only when bad engineering is involved.
I thought a CD player was a CD player.
maybe a DVD player is a DVD player.
in more than 40 years I've never heard "transport", maybe *transport* is one of the invented words just fo follow the trend, (and I know what kind of people follow trends)
@@georgemartinezza CD player has the digital to analog player built in and no way to access the raw digital data. A transport has a SPDIF or optical digital output, and may or may not have standard RCA jacks.
@@zulumax1 it is goid, being so .
Yes.
Or better still, buy a good turntable and cartridge or a vintage cassette deck like Nakamichi, Akai, Pioneer or Sansui.
I can't play all these CDs I already own on a turnable
@@jak8274 Maybe you need to get a brain first
Non sequitur
@@jak8274 Yes, there is a real drop in sound quality.
@@zulumax1 Zulu, my man, Your english is pretty bad. Look, if you have no secateurs, buy one at Home Depot or any hardware shop
Let's see specs? Nobody trusts old mans ears.
If you don't trust look it up for yourself. Duh...........
@@Mark-lq3sb thas't the best thing to do: search, compare, get info, look around for more, *instead believe and trust as a blind zombie* the first thing someone say.