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that's kinda what I understood it as well, as in vegan milk, vegan eggs; but what the 'omni' is doing there? does it mean that vegans of all directions can eat it? @@elias_phantom5
@@NoOne-hg1qc Winkie the Moose, a tiny orphaned moose raised by the neighborhood...kind of pig vs dog dilemma. I still respect hunters over those who just purchase meat, and hunting camp was fun, it's much more than just hunting, I'm just done. My last hunt someone shot terribly and the moose suffered and it pissed me off. However, I'm a glass artist who is working on a project beautifying old rusted fur bearer animal traps to show this winter. I violently hate animal trapping, and this project is my effort to discuss and end this practice. I'm mainly vegan because of animal agriculture.
@@AlaskaCamoKimI don't have a lot to add but thank you for sharing your experience. I'm glad you found your own way to see why animals aren't here for us to treat as objects and commodities and I hope others realize this one day too.
Isn't interesting that vets care about certain animals and are somehow insensitive to others (cows, pigs, chickens...) and eat them? I also worked as a vet assistant for a while.
@@lashedbutnotleashed1984 want one simple example? Run at a chicken and they will recognize you as a potential threat and will run away. This requires some cognition for their fight or flight response to activate
I think a lot of debate bros sit down thinking they are going to win an argument, and when it becomes apparent that they won't win, they want to leave. They were never open to having their minds changed. It's like a kid quitting an online game when the score gets out of hand.
Ehm no, nothing to do with fun, just basic understanding of nature and human nutrition. Nobody sensible needs to find a justification to feel good about eating animals, it suffices to understand that it's our species-specific food 🙂
@@isidorochannel Oh really? The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the WHO, and even the heavily animal agriculture lobbied USDA all state we'd be fine eating a vegan diet. There's also biological proof we're herbivores but one step at a time.
@Isidoro Channel First off.. I love that you like your own comments it’s adorable… Second.. you preach about understanding nutrition yet display an abundance of ignorance on the subject. Animal agriculture is not “nature” Do you stroll around a slaughter house to enjoy nature? Your logic is if they feel good they don’t need to justify their actions? I’m sure pedophiles agree with you 💯.
@Arthur Willis "It is strange the way the ignorant and inexperienced so often and so undeservedly succeed when the informed and the experienced fail." - Mark Twain. 🥀
It's amazing how once you go vegan, you can see how obscenely ridiculous most people are. Always trying to find any reason to justify doing the wrong thing.
the fallacy is that it doesnt require justification. either we are stardust, harvesting starlight, and morals are irrelevant or god created us to have dominion over animals and use them how we see fit.
every time I watch one of these and start to think "what an entitled prick", I remind myself that when I was an omnivorous 20 year old, I might have given the same responses
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
And did you know that Boston University is a private research university with an acceptance rate of 18.9%? This is the caliber of "intellect" who they let in!
Never thinking deeply about anything is the reason for all injustice. I absolutely hate phrases like "it's not that deep", totally gaslighting and invalidating. And shames people for being decent human beings with any shred of mindfulness.
It is 2023 and people still have to search for reasons why burning animals alive is wrong😵😵😵. Sometimes I am afraid of leaving in the same society as them
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
@@GarudaLegends As Ed pointed out, there are certainly people who can't go vegan food-wise due to circumstances of health (rare conditions, this will literally be max 5% of the global population), accessibility of plant-based food (those living in food deserts or away from "modern society"), etc. If this sounds like you, then yeah, you can't eat plant based. However, "The [vegan] diet is unhealthy" is simply not true. It's recognized by the CDC and USDA as a perfectly safe, healthy, and effective way to nourish yourself at all stages of life. Certainly, there are ways to do a vegan diet incorrectly, just as there are ways to be unhealthy with any choice of diet. Many nonvegans all over the world are unhealthy. As with any way of eating, you have to find out what foods your body needs to stay in balance, what staples to keep around. This will take trial and error, and those who never take the time to figure it out obviously run the risk of developing health issues. Phone a vegan friend if you're having a hard time. If you don't have any, find a vegan stranger on the internet. There are programs like Veganuary that you can sign up for, and they will email you so many helpful resources every week for free. Other vegans are always willing to help you; We understand the importance of the vegan movement, and will always be excited that you're willing to come try with us.
@@brinnthehuman all vegans are unhealthy. You can see it in long term vegans. This is why the oldest ppl to live were meat eaters and vegetarians. Vegans die prematurely, or get so sick they have to eat meat. Veganism is completely unhealthy. Matter of fact, their is literally no healthy vegan. They are malnourished and deficient.
For me this just goes to show how far we've distanced ourselves from Nature. Anybody in close relationship with animals would never deny their ability to feel. 🤯 come on, people!
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
Hahah, that is what my parents told me when I asked; - Does fishes that my grandfather couth feels pain while they are waiting under the sun until they die? * Fishes don't feel the pain! Then I touched one of the fishes with a stick and it tried to avoid the stick, and I asked; - Why it is avoiding the stick? * Ooh its just a reflex" Then I asked - Why then my grandmother don't want to cook them when they are still alive? * it is cruel to burn them alive -But why? *Because it would be painful Hhaha
If you think animals can't feel or think you obviously haven't spent a single day with them. I grew up around dogs, cats, mice, hamsters, and bunnies and I can guarantee that they all experience complex emotions. It's so unemphatic to assume they don't feel anything just because they don't speak our language.
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
I love how it's blatantly obvious that he thinks animals can suffer, but he needs to pretend that he doesn't know, because he doesn't want to weaken his argument/position.
Cannot believe humans are species who will rather defend an absolutely silly and cruel idea(which they know is not right even in their heads) than accepting that they are wrong and there is nothing shameful in being wrong.
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
@@zachemorgan abortion vs veganism is a totally different context though? Sure you could put arguments into different contexts & try to go for a "gotcha!" moment, but really, the circumstances often aren't comparable, and as such the possible contradiction doesn't actually exist.
@@isidorochannel If that's the case why is the cancer and heart disease risk lower in vegans and vegetarians than meat eaters? Here's a meta-analysis about the risk protection of abstaining from meat: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26853923/
Man this guy really is something. If Ed had asked him "Do dogs feel pain?" He'd have said "Of course dogs feel pain." And answered no to if cows, pigs, chickens feel pain. 🤦♂🤦♂🤦♂ Great work as always Ed! 💚
The whole "animals don't feel" and "we can't know for sure" is surreal, beyond empiric observations and even the slight empathy for other beings. Damn.
Absolutely Disgusting! Claiming that as a justification for Enslaving, Maltreating and Slaughtering Feeling and Sensitive Living Beings in 2023! xVGNxPWRx 🪬☘️💥💚💯💚💥☘️🪬
I am against animal suffering they should be treated well and then killed quickly with as little suffering as possible and then eat them. We either evolved to eat meat or were designed to eat meat
This made me recall the old movie "Powder." Powder has a kind of telepathic empathy that can be transferred to others by touch. In one scene, Powder connects a hunter, who has been insisting that deer "don't really feel pain," with a deer he has just shot. The hunter is so freaked out by the enormous pain that he never hunts again.
The sign of a strong stance is its ability to give a high number of concessions (even ones that are factually false like "plants have feelings") and still come out on top. The veganism stance is so strong that this particular concession actually STRENGTHENS the stance. Thank you for spreading ideas that are self-evident but largely rejected. Commenting for the algorithm, keep up the good work Ed.
Veganism is such a strong stance that even if you accept all the arguments against veganism, it will still come out as the right choice. Even the food chain argument can be debunked in more than one ways
Guys don't roast him. So what if his arguments might be weak and might seem contradictory at times. This is an example of someone who hasn't thought things through and I applaud him for allowing Ed to challenge his beliefs and keeping up with him as best as he could. This is all part of the learning and growth process to discover the Truth, whatever it may be.
@@harveyplantharvester1502 It's not easy to think when you're out there fishing and hunting and blowing heads off animals in the forest. This is the worst example I've seen of flat-out denial of animals feeling emotions, pain or anything at all.
@@harveyplantharvester1502 you call it excuses, really it's just recognizing the reality of the situation. Humans rationalize their actions to themselves, the vast majority of people eat meat without even thinking about it, and this guy was willing to respectfully speak with Ed. You can be hateful if you want, but it doesn't help you, veganism, the people in these videos, or... Anyone
Or the health of his loved ones. I have hunters at my work who live on farms and go hunting and all that. They're fat and unhealthy AF, even their kids. They think eating more corpses will fix their massive diabetes. One person has it so bad his feet might get cut off so his doctor told him to go on keto! D:
I used to be a meat eater myself, and I remember uttering those exact words - 'I don't believe animals feel anything.' It's a common anecdote among carnivores and hunters who choose to ignore the knowledge and research on animals' capacity to feel and experience the world just like we humans do. It's a way of avoiding the uncomfortable truth that our actions contribute to death and suffering. But as I delved deeper into the subject and opened myself to understanding, I realized how important it is to acknowledge the emotions and sentience of animals. It's a journey of self-awareness and compassion. Thank you for your content, Ed!
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
I don't think humans really care if animals are capable of suffering or not. If anything, the fact that they can suffer makes them more enthusiastic to hurt them.
Favorite argument of all times - “plants feel pain” Oh no! Then definitely don’t eat animals because that way you’ll eat even more plants. Just go vegan! It is easy! 🌱❤
sigh, this old fallacy. when an omnivore points out the death and pain vegans create, its not because the omnivore cares about the death and pain, he simply points out the hypocracy of vegans claiming to be moral for caring about 1 form of life but not another
@@thewhitedwarf3846 vegans claim to be moral because they minimise pain and suffering, plants cannot feel pain or suffering so it isn't hypocritical, sigh
@@thewhitedwarf3846 The original poster pointed out that if you eat animals, you're actually causing MORE plant deaths, not less. The majority of the main mono-crops of the world, like corn and soy, are cultivated specifically to support animal agriculture. They are fed to cows, pigs, chickens, etc. Animal agriculture is a leading cause of deforestation and thus general massive loss of biodiversity. That means a lot of plants and animals going extinct or at the very least having their ranges restricted. The vegan philosophy is ecocentric, not zoocentric. We do care about all forms of life, human and nonhuman, and we care about the good health of entire ecosystems and the biosphere as a whole. The goal is a minimal amount of suffering in the world. There is no fallacy here. There's plenty to back it up.
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
honestly I think Ed has become the number 1 debate master in the world. Would be great to see him crush meatflakes like Jordan & Mikhaila, Brett Cooper, Ben Shapiro, Sam Harris, Joe Rogan etc
Sam Harris has tried going vegan/vego numerous times but struggles with it. His diet probably sucks. But he’s admitted numerous times it’s the morally superior choice which is why he’s tried to make it work. The others are lost causes but I’d love to see Ed on Rogan
@@isidorochannel We are omnivores, we can CHOOSE what we eat. We are the most mutagenic species in the Planet, we are filled with cancers and cosmic dreams, and science. And we have machines and thumbs, go vegan pls, it's already late for nature...
Seems like he's unaware of the undeniabe fact that humans are animals. We feel just like other animals do, especially when we are talking about pain. It is very obvious animals actively try to avoid suffering.
THANK YOU. I have pointed this out many times that the idea of humans being more intelligent than animals is unproven and vegans should stop saying it. It's just another way humans try to assert their superiority.
@@ehrenromblon5392 The problem is that I know many, many irrational humans and very few irrational animals, although I do appreciate you taking intelligence out of the equation. The claim that humans are "more intelligent" is one of superiority. Perhaps the key difference is that animals are like the children and humans are the parents/guardians of these innocent beings who need protection. (Of course the ones in the wild can take care of themselves and we should not interfere except to protect their habitat much as possible)
"We don't really know how conscious animals are do we?" - I mean, we know enough to know they experience negative states like pain and fear so that's really all I need to know. I don't need a cow to appreciate a symphony or anything before I say "oh well I guess I won't eat you then because you've justified your existence to me".
When people don't know either way, they default to the answer (correct or not) which supports their current beliefs and behaviours. This is a human failing that has been endlessly exploited by the tobacco, sugar and animal ag industries. All these industries have to do is sow doubt. In doubt, people choose not to change.
I just agreed, that's all. I've met very few vegans who didn't sound totally scripted, and very few are able to construct cogent thoughts. veganism is a cult @@TXRhody
@@v.a.n.e. The reasons those vegans sound scripted is because those scripts have been shown to work. In fact, many of those vegans used to have certain beliefs about animals and animal welfare but were forced to change their beliefs when confronted with evidence to the contrary and when forced to challenge their beliefs by similar scripted speech. Just because some people have similar beliefs that does not mean those beliefs are necessarily dogmatic or irrational, especially if those people arrived at those beliefs through exploration of empirical evidence and logical discussion.
I'm convinced as well. The Golden Age in 500 BCE (the era of vegan Pythagoras) was one of great enlightenment... the ancient Egyptians knew how to harness energy using aquifers and magnetic fields. Now look at the human race! You can blame it on being chemically dumbed down by pharma poisons pushed on babies and children, but we've also lost common sense and capacity to listen to instincts etc.
@@blindbookworm8019 Covid19, "meat is unhealthy", the government cares about you, conventional schooling is positive and "educational", if you believe these, and the rest, you truly are stupid
As a dog mom I really appreciate you talking about vegan dog food! Since there aren‘t any good and yummy vegan food options for my dog where I live, I started cooking for her myself, completely vegan and she could not be any healthier. Definitely gonna be trying out the vegan treats from omni tho ☺️
It´s always strange to observe that people who don't care much about animal suffering seem to suddenly develop a spontaneous concern about the suffering of plants. But hey, guess this dude is not the most reflected student in his university and in his cognitive orbit. It´s obviously like uncle albert mentioned already: "Universities are beautiful dunghills on which a noble plant occasionally grows." cuz in the end "Education is what's left when you forget everything you learned in school." ;)
@@MustardSkaven Wanna talk about consistency, buddy...? Sure, we can have a deeper chat about that topic, after we cleared some irrefutable facts, dude. Well, if you don't consume any animal products, you will regularly be confidently pointed out that plants are living beings after all. Often in the belief that they will completely overwhelm the vegan with this supposed news. So why do vegans supposedly care about other living beings and criticize the killing of animals, but have less trouble killing plants. No, it's not because plants don't have cute beady eyes that make you sentimental or because it's not so nice to stroke them, because vegans don't eat animal products - not even from "ugly" animals. Short answer: Plants are not consciously capable of suffering and cannot feel pain. Of course, they are also living beings. When a vegan speaks - perhaps a little imprecisely - of living beings, then he generally means "living beings capable of suffering". Plants have nothing comparable to a central nervous system or a brain. Sure, there are pseudo-scientific studies from time to time according to which plants supposedly start to "scream" when someone approaches them who has torn off their leaves or where it is believed to be proven that plants, although they have no ears, like it when you talk to them and with pleasure listen to classical music. However, intensive serious research has yielded no evidence that plants have any kind of conscious sensations. Pain exists to protect higher beings from harm. However, since plants cannot escape, it makes no evolutionary sense that they would develop something like a sense of pain. We now have a good understanding of what is required for something like consciousness and the ability to feel pain, and without something like a central nervous system and some kind of brain, something like that doesn't exist in nature. Plants are the closest thing to biological automata. Of course, they also react to their environment and sometimes communicate with each other to a certain extent, but smartphones, for example, do the same and we would hardly call them capable of suffering in a conscious sense. Of course, even if one could expect plants to have some kind of consciousness, one should try to cause as little plant suffering as possible without sacrificing one's right to life. For ecological reasons, plants should be harmed as little as possible today, and vegans kill very few plants, because in order to produce animal products, one has to feed a large number of plants. Depending on the animal species, up to 15 times as many calories are needed from plants as are subsequently obtained in the form of meat. So, to meet my energy needs, I can either kill a certain amount of presumably susceptible plants, or kill a definitively susceptible animal that requires killing many times that number of plants to feed it. Even if, contrary to all scientific knowledge, one not only assumes that plants and animals can feel suffering and pain equally, but hypothetically completely denies animals the ability to suffer and assumes that plants can actually suffer, I have the choice of whether I want to accept the suffering of some plants cause by eating them directly, or multiple plant suffering by eating meat. So even if plants are capable of suffering and animals are not, vegans cause less suffering. And if we drop the fictional assumption that animals don't suffer, the suffering of the animal even outweighs that of the plants. If all of this doesn't convince you that there are crucial differences between animals and plants, you can do a little experiment for yourself: People have the rather strange custom of giving each other the sexual organs of plants on various occasions. Just give away a bouquet of pig penises instead at the next opportunity and let me know how it went. Of course, I'm not asking you to buy animal products, but maybe the trustworthy butcher on the corner has a few left over that he hasn't put in the sausage yet. ;)
@@robflynn5682 "Sure, we can have a deeper chat about that topic, after we cleared some irrefutable facts, dude. Well, if you don't consume any animal products, you will regularly be confidently pointed out that plants are living beings after all. Often in the belief that they will completely overwhelm the vegan with this supposed news. " Well, let's not start off our little "fact run" by immediately stating a falsehood, shall we? The "plants are alive" argument is to confront vegans with the futility of the "muh sentience" argument. It's not about overwhelming anyone, it's about pointing out a clear flaw in an argument. "Plants have nothing comparable to a central nervous system or a brain." Which is an arbitrary line to draw and it's based on your opinion. Which is the entire point of the "plants are alive" argument. "We shouldn't hurt the animals cause they feel pain!" Why? Cause YOU personally believe pain (only using a central nervous system) is that important and is thus the place to draw the line. "However, intensive serious research has yielded no evidence that plants have any kind of conscious sensations." Which is only important to YOU cause of your personal opinion and views. "For ecological reasons, plants should be harmed as little as possible today, and vegans kill very few plants, because in order to produce animal products, one has to feed a large number of plants. Depending on the animal species, up to 15 times as many calories are needed from plants as are subsequently obtained in the form of meat. So, to meet my energy needs, I can either kill a certain amount of presumably susceptible plants, or kill a definitively susceptible animal that requires killing many times that number of plants to feed it." Not that I care for ecology but I do care for facts. Let's not leave out the fact the majority of animal feed are plants that are not edible to humans anyway. "Even if, contrary to all scientific knowledge, one not only assumes that plants and animals can feel suffering and pain equally, but hypothetically completely denies animals the ability to suffer and assumes that plants can actually suffer, I have the choice of whether I want to accept the suffering of some plants cause by eating them directly, or multiple plant suffering by eating meat. So even if plants are capable of suffering and animals are not, vegans cause less suffering. And if we drop the fictional assumption that animals don't suffer, the suffering of the animal even outweighs that of the plants." Again falsely assuming the "plants are alive" or "plants feel pain" arguments are actually advocating for plants. The plants are alive argument, as I already explained, is to point out the futility of the sentience argument. The plants feel pain argument, is to point out the arbitrary nature of requiring a central nervous system. Since to any rational human, the essence of pain is the ability to sense when you are being hurt, whether that occurs through a central nervous system would be secondary. So vegans don't really care about "doing no harm", they only care if the harm can be perceived through a central nervous system specifically. "If all of this doesn't convince you that there are crucial differences between animals and plants, you can do a little experiment for yourself: People have the rather strange custom of giving each other the sexual organs of plants on various occasions. Just give away a bouquet of pig penises instead at the next opportunity and let me know how it went. " False assumption that I am not aware of differences between plants and animals. That's also a very disingenuous example. We do gift each other stuffed animals or parts of animals such as their hide. We value different things from different species, depends on what that thing is and how pretty it looks. What does any of this have to do with consistency again?
@@MustardSkaven "Not that I care for ecology but I do care for facts. Let's not leave out the fact the majority of animal feed are plants that are not edible to humans anyway." Well, about 85% of the total world soy crop is used as animal feed. Meat then contains only about half as much protein per kilo as soy. And soy can be consumed directly by humans. But instead, such foods are thrown to animals to produce meat from, at an energy loss of up to 97%. This is probably the worst magic trick in the world: you turn 100 kilos of food into three kilos and a huge pile of shit. So, even if you dont care about ecology or anything else outwards your selfinterests, that sort of "efficiency" factwise is kinda silly, isnt it? ;) Of course, not all of it would be directly edible for humans, because they are also fed so-called roughage, which is not suitable for human consumption and which often does not grow on arable land where human food could be grown instead. But after fattening it for the usual 60 weeks, you "get" around 300 kg of edible meat from a cow. In addition to the average 6,900 kg of roughage, about 1,200 kg of concentrated feed were used, which occupied a lot of arable land. The amount of concentrated feed alone is a multiple of what you end up with as meat. And you need about half a hectare of land for that. A field of this size could have produced about 2,000 kg of grain or 15,000 kg of potatoes during this time! Anyway, I think you're smart enough to know all the facts, but your reasoning also shows that consuming animal products is mostly a matter of habit and education, and not really based on rational choices. You don't sit down and think critically about whether animal exploitation is okay and then decide to do it, but have lived in a society since birth where it's done that way and you try to rationalize it afterwards. I assume, I know were you coming from, cuz probably I´ve been there already. I´d eat meat and dairy products for half of my life and I fuggin loved it, as long I didnt question if my inner stance would correlate with my daily actions. Basically, that's the oldest story in the world: people who profit from the game in one way or another don't want to change the rules. But animal products cause suffering, injustice and environmental damage and are not necessary for us at all. There are simply no good reasons to eat meat or animal products anymore. But there are plenty of good reasons to stop doing it. What distinguishes human animals from non-human animals? Well, most people would say we're smarter. And because we're a very greedy, rapacious form of ape, we're very good at modifying our environment to achieve our goals. That is what makes our civilization. A distinction is made between vital and non-vital interests. Vital ones are those that must be fulfilled in order to live reasonably well. "Good" in the sense of "not unpleasant". Non-vital ones are those that may, but do not necessarily have to, be met. Food, shelter, water, these are vital interests. Owning a Ferrari is not vital. Children learn this distinction in school. The difference between wanting and needing. Seen in this way, animals also have vital and non-vital interests. What we humans do with animals is this: We ignore their vital interests in order to fulfill comparatively unimportant interests for us. We treat them miserably, eat them because we want something nice to eat, and exploit them in myriad ways for our convenience and self-interest. When an individual's vital interests are bypassed in order to satisfy non-vital interests, he is treated as morally irrelevant. If someone kidnaps you, rips out your organs and sells them to buy a Ferrari, you as a individual don't count morally. And this is always the case when we allow non-vital interests to take precedence over vital ones. That's why the way we treat animals is just wrong. Cognitive dissonance is something we humans do best. We are true masters at it! By and large, we just don't think about these things. When we buy meat from the supermarket, we don't think about how the animal lived and died. Otherwise we wouldn't want to eat it. Actually we are very good at NOT thinking about things. Jean Paul Sartre said, that we humans have no predetermined nature. We are free to choose who we want to be. Animals, on the other hand, are simply slaves to their biological heritage. They cannot decide autonomously how they want to live. I think that's wrong! - It's just human arrogance that says we choose how ever we want to live. Other animals are not allowed to do this. That is a very strange and unjustified assumption... Anyway, take care and dont trip over your conditioned beliefs, mate. ;)
@@robflynn5682 "Well, about 85% of the total world soy crop is used as animal feed. " And only 1% of all animal feed is soy. The majority of animal feed being grasses and leaves. 85% of 1% is not a lot, is it? Let's stick to the relevant numbers. The paragraphs about how inefficient animal farming is in terms of calories are irrelevant to the discussion. "Anyway, I think you're smart enough to know all the facts, but your reasoning also shows that consuming animal products is mostly a matter of habit and education, and not really based on rational choices. You don't sit down and think critically about whether animal exploitation is okay and then decide to do it, but have lived in a society since birth where it's done that way and you try to rationalize it afterwards. I assume, I know were you coming from, cuz probably I´ve been there already. I´d eat meat and dairy products for half of my life and I fuggin loved it, as long I didnt question if my inner stance would correlate with my daily actions." That's a bold assumption to make. I have thought about it and realised animal exploitation is A-okay. Just because YOU went through a certain path and came to a certain personal realisation doesn't mean it's true for others. " Basically, that's the oldest story in the world: people who profit from the game in one way or another don't want to change the rules. But animal products cause suffering, injustice and environmental damage and are not necessary for us at all. There are simply no good reasons to eat meat or animal products anymore. But there are plenty of good reasons to stop doing it. " This is mostly opinion, of course. What you call unjust or good, others may not. "What distinguishes human animals from non-human animals? Well, most people would say we're smarter. And because we're a very greedy, rapacious form of ape, we're very good at modifying our environment to achieve our goals. That is what makes our civilization. " Don't forget about sapience. "A distinction is made between vital and non-vital interests. Vital ones are those that must be fulfilled in order to live reasonably well. "Good" in the sense of "not unpleasant". Non-vital ones are those that may, but do not necessarily have to, be met. Food, shelter, water, these are vital interests. Owning a Ferrari is not vital. Children learn this distinction in school. The difference between wanting and needing. " Yes, there are things you can't reasonably survive without like food or shelter and there are luxury things like electronics, cars, etc. We are in agreement here. "Seen in this way, animals also have vital and non-vital interests. What we humans do with animals is this: We ignore their vital interests in order to fulfill comparatively unimportant interests for us. We treat them miserably, eat them because we want something nice to eat, and exploit them in myriad ways for our convenience and self-interest. When an individual's vital interests are bypassed in order to satisfy non-vital interests, he is treated as morally irrelevant. " Yes! We don't consider animals to be as morally relevant as humans at all! "Cognitive dissonance is something we humans do best. We are true masters at it! By and large, we just don't think about these things. When we buy meat from the supermarket, we don't think about how the animal lived and died. Otherwise we wouldn't want to eat it. Actually we are very good at NOT thinking about things. " Except I am very aware of how my meat got there. I actually am in the habit of looking out for organ meats whenever I can. Why are you falsely assuming that if we think about where it comes from, we wouldn't want to eat it? Just cause this may be true FOR YOU doesn't mean it's true for others. I understand it's important for a dedicated vegan to have the belief that everyone can be converted as they have been. That there is hope that one day every person can become vegan, "if only they saw the error of their ways". This is a requirement for the vegan agenda to have any hope. Don't let it get in the way of seeing things for how they really are, however. "Jean Paul Sartre said, that we humans have no predetermined nature. We are free to choose who we want to be. Animals, on the other hand, are simply slaves to their biological heritage. They cannot decide autonomously how they want to live. I think that's wrong! - It's just human arrogance that says we choose how ever we want to live. Other animals are not allowed to do this. That is a very strange and unjustified assumption... " That's great for Sartre. Who is it that allows or not allows humans or other animals to live they way they want to live? "Anyway, take care and dont trip over your conditioned beliefs, mate. ;)" There's nothing conditioned about it. I am actually going against norms here, as a carnivore.
That is a ridiculous statement. You really think a bear or a tiger tearing another animal apart and eating it alive has "compassion and love?" Animals torture each other all the time. How is that compassionate?
@@lashedbutnotleashed1984Why are you looking to nature ? Your honour I killed my baby and ate it as many animals do it to . Lions are obligate carnivores , how on earth do they kill a animal less cruelly ? They have no choice , you do .
@@lashedbutnotleashed1984 I think a bear protecting her cubs from a poacher, or a tiger grooming their mate are both signs of compassion. Nature is full of cruelty but also beautiful things. You're just ignoring the softer sides to these beings.
@Lashed but not Leashed I didn’t realize you were either a bear or tiger.. wow you are incredible smart if you are. It’s almost as if you have the intellect and knowledge to not function and their level yet here you are comparing yourself to them again.. 🙄
Whenever someone says plants feel pain, I point out that plants don't have a brain or a central nervous system, and people will respond "YES THEY DO" smh
The strongest response is to admit that they might feel some pain but that we expect it to be the lowest of options we can eat (due to expected lesser sentience). From there we can point out that if you're concerned about plants feeling pain, most plants are "murdered" to feed to animals and if we stopped eating animals, we could harm less plants by eating them directly.
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
I really love how he concluded the discussion "I think that's a fair argument and I'll consider it" Sometimes that's all we really need, not for people to immediately agree or disagree with us but simply to understand the reasoning of an argument and take it into consideration as they continue to learn and go about life 👍 Well done Victor and Ed!
Damn, it's really difficult to not just say: "this dude is simply an idiot". We've all been there before I know but once you see it an understand it it's just difficult to process the arguments people make to justify animal suffering.
Why? Have compassion for him, he even says he'll consider the argument in the end. Everyone has been ignorant about something at points in their lives. Not everyone has ruminated on all subjects to have well structured critical reasoning behind their arguments, but through deep debate, most people are capable. He just seems like a potential future vegan to me.
@@vincentizghra6144 I’m sorry but that’s not what I see, he has a tangible wall of resistance towards that topic and he comes out dishonest. It’s ok to be ignorant of things however if you’re still cocky that you have the upper hand (to say the least) I’d say that’s pretty low standard.
@@vincentizghra6144 Claiming there's no proof that animals have feelings is way beyond just being "ignorant." To admit that would spoil his hunting and fishing enjoyment of killing.
Our dog Leeping has been plant based for 7 years he is 12years old and so healthy. Has had no trips to the vet in 7 years except to sew up a wound made by a wild boar! Which he recovered from very quickly. I cook his food once a week , easy and cheap. He gets very excited at meal time and enjoys his dinners of lentils, rice, flax grated courgette and beetroot etc.
My neighbors are vegan activists and their dog is on a vegan diet as well. In fact they got it trained to go to the bathroom in my yard. And we live over a hundred yards apart.
That is THE best diet for a dog - home-cooked lentils, rice & vegetables, it's what one of the world's longest living dogs (25 years) named Bramble ate! (And that's smart to keep him away from vets with their poison and shots)
We do in fact know that animals suffer and feel pain. If he took two seconds to google “do animals feel pain?” His entire argument immediately goes out the window
I just did a Google search on this and was shocked that the results were mostly pro-animal, as in yes, they do feel pain much like humans. Then of course there's the blatant lies from pharma like this one "Most animals experience only minimal pain or brief discomfort when they are used in research."
Not to be negative so early, but some of these guys thoughts, (or what they claim are), are kinda scary. Edit: Not just this person specifically, just this type of person ed debates.
@v.a.n.e. he will casually say we don't really have evidence babies feel pain. Like, let's let that sink in. Not even placing it next to his other statement that plants might feel more than animals which is logically inconsistent with his other view that... and it kinda goes on from there.
These are the hardest kind of conversations, when the person refuses to be wrong and would rather argue terrible arguments and say 'I don't believe', than they would accept they're wrong. It's really just pathetic.
@@v.a.n.e. I've mentioned morality lots of times. You just don't pay attention. I've tried several times to inform you of the unnecessary suffering and death to both animals and humans you cause by eating animals and you shrug it off every time. So clearly you have no problem killing others for your own personal entertainment. Therefore, I see little reason to keep wasting my time on you. All you have in your own defense is, "I don't believe that" as if that proves anything and some stupid statistic you like to throw around which isn't even meaningful.
Has this cold hearted boy never been round an animal in his life? H doesn't know dogs have learning abilities, memories and scream if pain is inflicted upon them.? He finds every excuse he can to disregard what any decent human being is in no doubt of.....animals feel pain, suffer and are a life in their own right.
Anyone who has taken a dog to the vet for the second time knows that animals not only feel pain, they feel fear and they remember. This guy lost all the arguments, knew he had lost the arguments but just didn't want to admit it.
I love your videos and what you do Ed!, But man, these single-sided debates are getting boring 😂. Non-vegans just have absolutely nothing in these debates. At this point, it's like arguing with a flat-earther.
I love the comparison with flat-earthers because the arguments are of the same level honestly But I still think these videos are useful, they give us a broad range of things to say against those kind of arguments we could definitely hear from a non vegan Also the more videos the more exposure so it's always a benefit
@@rondarkman. updating profile picture and name just to try to make vegans mad or sth is the most pathetic thing I've seen in a while xD Dude srsly, get a life ^^
“You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity.”-Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Plants feel pain" is an excellent reason to go vegan. So much plantfood goes into animals to make meat and other animal products... Very inefficient and plant-unfriendly
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
Never concede that plants feel pain. If someone doesn't understand that something without a brain or central nervous system can't feel anything then they're too dumb to even talk to.
Arguing against veganism makes intelligent people look fooolish , or perhaps their not as intelligent as they think they are ? Even as a carnist I knew I was a hypocrite , didnt want to be one any more so slowly switched to veganism , 25 years vegan now !
Someone should develop a program where these people's speech is converted to text in real time, and then automatically replace "babies" to "animals". Let them read the text, and they will realise that whatever reason they give for not wanting to eat a baby also applies to animals
Will forever amaze me how people have so much confidence and willingness to debate without any self-awareness or thinking through even a shred of their argument whatsoever
How does anyone graduate from high school not knowing that plants do not have pain receptors to be able to feel pain but animals do? We DO know that. The state of the education system in the US must have slipped into redundancy for someone coming out of it to be talking like that.
Animal agriculture has a big hold on the education system, just like any other evil industry. It's now standard practice for students to dissect baby pigs in science class just to desensitize them (it used to be frogs). A lot of them have 4-H programs to encourage them to become animal farmers, etc.
We can't talk about the biosphere and ecosystems without talking about the food chains: Lions are obligate carnivores. They are apex predators that prey on gazelles that have gotten their protein and carbohydrates from grass, and the grass has gotten its energy and calories from the sun. The sun is the source of energy for the most of the food chains on earth. 80% of the biomass on earth is comprised of plants. A good amount of a lion's diet comes from scavenging as it is efficient compared to hunting the weak, ill, young and old gazelles. Lions are also not moral agents that we can point to for our moral standards. When a lion forces themselves on a lioness, a suspect in a court of law can't use that to justify his actions to a judge. All plants are producers/autotrophs and all animals, including humans as they are part of the animal kingdom, are heterotrophs/consumers, as they can not make their own energy. For humans, when there are plants to eat, it becomes cruel to hurt some one else to eat their dead body. Being an omnivore just means that we can digest animal protein, but there is no necessity for the animal protein. We can also turn our hands into a fist and attack some one with them. Just because you can do something with what you have, doesn't mean you should. Many major dietetic associations have made statements that a planned, vegan diet is appropriate for all stages of the human life cycle. Taking it further, a planned, whole food, vegan diet is amongst the healthiest you can eat. Plant protein comes packaged with fiber, antioxidants, and phytonutrients, while animal protein comes with cholesterol, increases trimethylamine N-oxide, has higher proportion of the essential amino acids (which is a characteristic of animal protein) results in our bodies producing higher levels of the hormone insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1), higher concentrations of sulfur-containing amino acids, which can induce a subtle state of acidosis when metabolized. 80% of total agricultural land is devoted to animal agriculture yet yields only 20% of the calories! This is because most of the plant calories consumed by cows, pigs and chickens go towards their body's homeostasis and metabolism, which is the priority, not to building flesh on the bones. Think of the poor countries that are growing soybean and wheat fields to ship it to wealthier countries to feed cows so they can eat a steak! Since animal agriculture uses so much wilderness, it is a large driver for deforestation, habitat loss and species extinctions. In areas where it uses land that is not arable for crop farming, but is being used for cattle, it is still taking land away from native animals that used to use it for eating the native vegetation! 60% of the mammals on earth are livestock (predominately cattle and pigs), 36% are humans and 4% are wild mammals. An acre of cereal produces 5 times the protein of meat; legumes 10 times more; leafy vegetables 15 times more. 🌏🌱☀
"I just dont know whether pruning a rose bush is the same as chopping a dogs leg off".......................definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed!
Buddy wanted to leave twice because he knew how much he was embarrassing himself. Luckily for him the second try worked. Unlucky for the animals as he seemed to be dishonest about his own morals. Hopefully this conversation knocks some sense into his brain.
@@jdmmg4904 You're right! I also think, however, that my empathy is slightly lower for someone who jumps through a series of hoops to justity the slaughter of animals
this guy whole argument is that “we don’t know if animals suffer”. okay? why wouldn’t you just stop eating them regardless, just in case they do? this isn’t a justification, he clearly just wants to keep eating them because he thinks they taste good.
I respect the young man who sat down for this conversation. I also appreciate Ed’s non-confrontational approach. We can’t change minds by getting angry, acting condescending, or being verbally abusive.
Omni seems awesome! I have met so many 'vegans' who feed their pets non-vegan products. That is not vegan... They are still contributing to death & suffering by doing that. Whilst I had the opportunity to, I had fed my family's dog the same food I ate. Whole foods. Fruits, vegetables, grains & nuts. The dog was much happier, showed signs of much more energy, their body was in a healthier shape, even their fur. And then when It was no longer my choice what to feed the dog, who was forced to go back on a meat-based diet, they went back to being super sedentary, tired, & slow to process information.
When you say "pets" I hope you're just referring to dogs and not obligate carnivores like cats. Dogs are omnivores that have been proven to thrive on home-cooked lentils/rice and vegetables per Guinness World Records. Cats however will get sick from such an alkaline diet, including developing life-threatening urinary tract crystals and blockages. And slaughterhouses are not open for pets, they stay in business because of humans, so worry about the humans being vegan first.
Get 60% off Omni vegan dog food and their new vegan treat range that supports joints, shiny coats, anxiety relief and even gut health. Use the code ED60 at checkout to get 60% off your first order of one item: bit.ly/omnipetfood
omni vegan? what the health is omni vegan?
@@v.a.n.e. vegan dog food
Carnivores that are pets against being turn vegan
that's kinda what I understood it as well, as in vegan milk, vegan eggs; but what the 'omni' is doing there? does it mean that vegans of all directions can eat it? @@elias_phantom5
WTF..
If you want a vegan pet, get a herbivore, not a freaking carnivore.
Oh, and the founder of this claims that dogs are omnivores, LMAO.
His cognitive dissonance is over 9000
It's more of like a Cognitive Disaster!🤔🫣
Well, in a way, it's pretty much how we felt way before we became vegan.
Society will indoctrinate you
Nah, it's over 100000.
@@isabellezablocki7447 Same.
As a ex hunter and retired vet tech, I can assure you animals feel pain and suffering.
what made you "ex" ?
@@NoOne-hg1qc Winkie the Moose, a tiny orphaned moose raised by the neighborhood...kind of pig vs dog dilemma. I still respect hunters over those who just purchase meat, and hunting camp was fun, it's much more than just hunting, I'm just done. My last hunt someone shot terribly and the moose suffered and it pissed me off. However, I'm a glass artist who is working on a project beautifying old rusted fur bearer animal traps to show this winter. I violently hate animal trapping, and this project is my effort to discuss and end this practice.
I'm mainly vegan because of animal agriculture.
@@AlaskaCamoKimI don't have a lot to add but thank you for sharing your experience. I'm glad you found your own way to see why animals aren't here for us to treat as objects and commodities and I hope others realize this one day too.
Everyone including this clown knows that, he’s being disingenuous which is evident by his refusal to accept that setting a cow on fire is acceptable.
Isn't interesting that vets care about certain animals and are somehow insensitive to others (cows, pigs, chickens...) and eat them? I also worked as a vet assistant for a while.
Five minutes in, and a bit concerned at how people still wonder whether animals can think or feel in 2023...
Ignorance is bliss, apparently. 😔
What proof do you have that a chicken can think? What does it think about?
@@lashedbutnotleashed1984 want one simple example? Run at a chicken and they will recognize you as a potential threat and will run away. This requires some cognition for their fight or flight response to activate
I don't even think he agrees with his own argument, he's just too scared to face the fact that he's on the wrong side of the fence
Yeah…he sounds like Rene decarte which blows my mind considering how much evidence has shown the opposite
He immediately wanted to flee when his basic arguments were shattered.
That was just a reflex - no emotion involved! He’s an animal, after all.
@@discursion 😆
I think a lot of debate bros sit down thinking they are going to win an argument, and when it becomes apparent that they won't win, they want to leave. They were never open to having their minds changed. It's like a kid quitting an online game when the score gets out of hand.
He was getting hungry and needs to eat delicious pork chops 🥩🍖🥩🐖
He sounds like the classic example of turning animals into a rock to feel better about harming and killing animals for fun.
Ehm no, nothing to do with fun, just basic understanding of nature and human nutrition. Nobody sensible needs to find a justification to feel good about eating animals, it suffices to understand that it's our species-specific food 🙂
@@isidorochannel Oh really? The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the WHO, and even the heavily animal agriculture lobbied USDA all state we'd be fine eating a vegan diet. There's also biological proof we're herbivores but one step at a time.
@@isidorochannel 🤡
@@isidorochannelwill you die if you stop eating animal products?
@Isidoro Channel First off.. I love that you like your own comments it’s adorable…
Second.. you preach about understanding nutrition yet display an abundance of ignorance on the subject. Animal agriculture is not “nature” Do you stroll around a slaughter house to enjoy nature?
Your logic is if they feel good they don’t need to justify their actions? I’m sure pedophiles agree with you 💯.
Amazing how confident people can be in things they clearly know nothing about
Dunning-Krüger😄
@Arthur Willis
"It is strange the way the ignorant and inexperienced so often and so undeservedly succeed when the informed and the experienced fail."
- Mark Twain.
🥀
its just a scale, you gota act in life
Ignorance begets confidence more often than does knowledge.
Like earthling Ed
It's amazing how once you go vegan, you can see how obscenely ridiculous most people are. Always trying to find any reason to justify doing the wrong thing.
It's not wrong
You do realize lots of animals are killed So you can be a vegan
And it’s almost like a tangible wall, I mean the resistance of it is the worst.
the fallacy is that it doesnt require justification. either we are stardust, harvesting starlight, and morals are irrelevant or god created us to have dominion over animals and use them how we see fit.
every time I watch one of these and start to think "what an entitled prick", I remind myself that when I was an omnivorous 20 year old, I might have given the same responses
This guy: “we don’t know 100% that animals can feel, so just to play safe, imma keep killing them”
😂
I was looking for this
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
Right?!
Animals that die to protect crops that you eat feel
his ignorance is mind boggling
You can see the cognitive dissonance on his face
And did you know that Boston University is a private research university with an acceptance rate of 18.9%? This is the caliber of "intellect" who they let in!
Never thinking deeply about anything is the reason for all injustice. I absolutely hate phrases like "it's not that deep", totally gaslighting and invalidating. And shames people for being decent human beings with any shred of mindfulness.
It's 2023 and we still have to explain how and why non human animals suffer.
It is 2023 and people still have to search for reasons why burning animals alive is wrong😵😵😵. Sometimes I am afraid of leaving in the same society as them
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
It's 2023 and there are more ppl going ex vegan than vegan. The diet is unhealthy.
@@GarudaLegends As Ed pointed out, there are certainly people who can't go vegan food-wise due to circumstances of health (rare conditions, this will literally be max 5% of the global population), accessibility of plant-based food (those living in food deserts or away from "modern society"), etc. If this sounds like you, then yeah, you can't eat plant based. However,
"The [vegan] diet is unhealthy" is simply not true. It's recognized by the CDC and USDA as a perfectly safe, healthy, and effective way to nourish yourself at all stages of life. Certainly, there are ways to do a vegan diet incorrectly, just as there are ways to be unhealthy with any choice of diet. Many nonvegans all over the world are unhealthy. As with any way of eating, you have to find out what foods your body needs to stay in balance, what staples to keep around. This will take trial and error, and those who never take the time to figure it out obviously run the risk of developing health issues.
Phone a vegan friend if you're having a hard time. If you don't have any, find a vegan stranger on the internet. There are programs like Veganuary that you can sign up for, and they will email you so many helpful resources every week for free. Other vegans are always willing to help you; We understand the importance of the vegan movement, and will always be excited that you're willing to come try with us.
@@brinnthehuman all vegans are unhealthy. You can see it in long term vegans. This is why the oldest ppl to live were meat eaters and vegetarians. Vegans die prematurely, or get so sick they have to eat meat. Veganism is completely unhealthy. Matter of fact, their is literally no healthy vegan. They are malnourished and deficient.
For me this just goes to show how far we've distanced ourselves from Nature. Anybody in close relationship with animals would never deny their ability to feel. 🤯 come on, people!
I think yoyre wrong on the "nature". That opens many a can if worms. "Nature" a fave argument of the doltish meat eaters.
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
what do you mean by feel? like do they know what death is? do they know they're one?
Hahah, that is what my parents told me when I asked;
- Does fishes that my grandfather couth feels pain while they are waiting under the sun until they die?
* Fishes don't feel the pain!
Then I touched one of the fishes with a stick and it tried to avoid the stick, and I asked;
- Why it is avoiding the stick?
* Ooh its just a reflex"
Then I asked
- Why then my grandmother don't want to cook them when they are still alive?
* it is cruel to burn them alive
-But why?
*Because it would be painful
Hhaha
LOL! People really don't think about what they say or believe.
If you think animals can't feel or think you obviously haven't spent a single day with them. I grew up around dogs, cats, mice, hamsters, and bunnies and I can guarantee that they all experience complex emotions. It's so unemphatic to assume they don't feel anything just because they don't speak our language.
I always think serial killer in the making...
Do you mean un-empathetic?
@@sandray7609 I KNOW!!!
Agreed. I have to imagine anyone making this argument has never lived nor interacted either animals outside of killing them.
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
I love how it's blatantly obvious that he thinks animals can suffer, but he needs to pretend that he doesn't know, because he doesn't want to weaken his argument/position.
Cannot believe humans are species who will rather defend an absolutely silly and cruel idea(which they know is not right even in their heads) than accepting that they are wrong and there is nothing shameful in being wrong.
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
i would love applying yalls arguments towards abortion.
@@zachemorgan spoiler alert, they like killing babies
@@zachemorgan abortion vs veganism is a totally different context though? Sure you could put arguments into different contexts & try to go for a "gotcha!" moment, but really, the circumstances often aren't comparable, and as such the possible contradiction doesn't actually exist.
Nobody feels less than a carnist defending the indefensible.
best summary!
I think the word you're looking for is carnivore and you're also one of them, no matter how much you deny it 😅
your comment doesn't make much sense, you know
@@isidorochannel
If that's the case why is the cancer and heart disease risk lower in vegans and vegetarians than meat eaters?
Here's a meta-analysis about the risk protection of abstaining from meat:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26853923/
I got two meatflakes to respond to me 🤣
Man this guy really is something. If Ed had asked him "Do dogs feel pain?" He'd have said "Of course dogs feel pain." And answered no to if cows, pigs, chickens feel pain. 🤦♂🤦♂🤦♂
Great work as always Ed! 💚
The whole "animals don't feel" and "we can't know for sure" is surreal, beyond empiric observations and even the slight empathy for other beings. Damn.
Plants feel pain is the silliest argument for killing animals.
Silly is putting it mildly. It’s brutality, insanely stupid.
@@cynicalidealist11and outright cruel, people don’t use plant suffering to justify anything other than eating animal flesh/secretions
Absolutely Disgusting! Claiming that as a justification for Enslaving, Maltreating and Slaughtering Feeling and Sensitive Living Beings in 2023!
xVGNxPWRx 🪬☘️💥💚💯💚💥☘️🪬
Do insects feel pain?
I am against animal suffering they should be treated well and then killed quickly with as little suffering as possible and then eat them. We either evolved to eat meat or were designed to eat meat
He is grasping at straws trying to justify his position against Ed’s rational arguments. He has no position.
He has meat 😂😂 who cares
Who cares about the ethics when the health situation of veganism is certainly questionable
@@rondarkman. I hope that one day, you'll learn what compassion is. I believe that you can also change for the better, i'm rooting for you!
@@Moiyima
I'll continue to enjoy the animals
How can you gloat about the terrible horror that you inflict on others? @@rondarkman.
This made me recall the old movie "Powder." Powder has a kind of telepathic empathy that can be transferred to others by touch. In one scene, Powder connects a hunter, who has been insisting that deer "don't really feel pain," with a deer he has just shot. The hunter is so freaked out by the enormous pain that he never hunts again.
That is an incredible scene. He forces the hunter to feel the exact pain and suffering the deer went through.
The sign of a strong stance is its ability to give a high number of concessions (even ones that are factually false like "plants have feelings") and still come out on top. The veganism stance is so strong that this particular concession actually STRENGTHENS the stance. Thank you for spreading ideas that are self-evident but largely rejected. Commenting for the algorithm, keep up the good work Ed.
Veganism is such a strong stance that even if you accept all the arguments against veganism, it will still come out as the right choice. Even the food chain argument can be debunked in more than one ways
The denial is strong in this one.
I come from a family of farmers and hunters and I am vegan.
Same!
I come from family of farmers.
And I am not vegan!
Proud of my heritage! 🧐
@@drunkgambler3482 thats nice, i am too. I just wanted to point out that you can be both. There are also vegan farmers, it is not contrary
nice. 🙏
@@lavradora7325 Farmers that grow crops are among the most important people for society
Guys don't roast him. So what if his arguments might be weak and might seem contradictory at times. This is an example of someone who hasn't thought things through and I applaud him for allowing Ed to challenge his beliefs and keeping up with him as best as he could. This is all part of the learning and growth process to discover the Truth, whatever it may be.
Thankfully Ed is doing a great job at sewing the seeds of thought in this young guys mind. Hopefully he'll make the connection.
Mmmmhmmmm....
@Franky You're making excuses for someone who still thinks animals are like machines? this is one for the books -- and he's even going to college. LOL
@@harveyplantharvester1502 It's not easy to think when you're out there fishing and hunting and blowing heads off animals in the forest. This is the worst example I've seen of flat-out denial of animals feeling emotions, pain or anything at all.
@@harveyplantharvester1502 you call it excuses, really it's just recognizing the reality of the situation. Humans rationalize their actions to themselves, the vast majority of people eat meat without even thinking about it, and this guy was willing to respectfully speak with Ed. You can be hateful if you want, but it doesn't help you, veganism, the people in these videos, or... Anyone
"Animals don't fell pain"
Humans are animals, therefore humans don't fell pain. That is just silly.
Humans aren't animals. Stop making stuff up.
Seriously. 😂
Feel
like no one knows which animals are talked about
@@v.a.n.e. the argument still stands...
Just be straight up and say “I don’t care about animals, our environment, or my health. “
Or the health of his loved ones. I have hunters at my work who live on farms and go hunting and all that. They're fat and unhealthy AF, even their kids. They think eating more corpses will fix their massive diabetes. One person has it so bad his feet might get cut off so his doctor told him to go on keto! D:
He does care, that's why he needs excuses
@@pascalschmierer3035 Or, he doesn't want to make himself look bad.
Most people do care, so they rather choose hypocrisy than change their ways.
100% and with alchohol? So throw in lack of consiousness and uninverted and/or unwarped spirituality?
I used to be a meat eater myself, and I remember uttering those exact words - 'I don't believe animals feel anything.' It's a common anecdote among carnivores and hunters who choose to ignore the knowledge and research on animals' capacity to feel and experience the world just like we humans do. It's a way of avoiding the uncomfortable truth that our actions contribute to death and suffering. But as I delved deeper into the subject and opened myself to understanding, I realized how important it is to acknowledge the emotions and sentience of animals. It's a journey of self-awareness and compassion. Thank you for your content, Ed!
We'd never be THIS absurdly skeptical of the obvious fact that animals can suffer if we didn't REALLY want to keep eating them. ugh.
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
I was waiting for Ed to bring out video footage of pigs in a gas chamber, as mere words didn't seem to phase this college student's undeveloped brain.
Delicious pigs
@@rondarkman. basically a knock-down argument
I don't think humans really care if animals are capable of suffering or not. If anything, the fact that they can suffer makes them more enthusiastic to hurt them.
Favorite argument of all times - “plants feel pain” Oh no! Then definitely don’t eat animals because that way you’ll eat even more plants. Just go vegan! It is easy! 🌱❤
2nd favourite: but animals kill animals too😂
Bro.. its the circle of life 🦁
sigh, this old fallacy. when an omnivore points out the death and pain vegans create, its not because the omnivore cares about the death and pain, he simply points out the hypocracy of vegans claiming to be moral for caring about 1 form of life but not another
@@thewhitedwarf3846 vegans claim to be moral because they minimise pain and suffering, plants cannot feel pain or suffering so it isn't hypocritical, sigh
@@thewhitedwarf3846 The original poster pointed out that if you eat animals, you're actually causing MORE plant deaths, not less. The majority of the main mono-crops of the world, like corn and soy, are cultivated specifically to support animal agriculture. They are fed to cows, pigs, chickens, etc.
Animal agriculture is a leading cause of deforestation and thus general massive loss of biodiversity. That means a lot of plants and animals going extinct or at the very least having their ranges restricted.
The vegan philosophy is ecocentric, not zoocentric. We do care about all forms of life, human and nonhuman, and we care about the good health of entire ecosystems and the biosphere as a whole. The goal is a minimal amount of suffering in the world.
There is no fallacy here. There's plenty to back it up.
He's squirming in his chair listening to his own logic.
How sick those people, just questioning that animals don't have feelings is sickening
The feel good in my stomach
@@rondarkman. psychopath vibes
@@mara3842
Cope lol 😆 🤣 😂
@@rondarkman. you are mentally ill
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
honestly I think Ed has become the number 1 debate master in the world. Would be great to see him crush meatflakes like Jordan & Mikhaila, Brett Cooper, Ben Shapiro, Sam Harris, Joe Rogan etc
They'd never debate him because they know they're wrong and would be crushed.
@@suicune2001 honestly they won’t debate him because they “know” that they’re right. He’s also some random dude to them
@@Jack-zj1ug If they're right and they hate vegans so much then who better to pwn than the vegan Jesus himself?
Joe Rogan should absolutely host Ed. But understand that Joe doesn't really have people on strictly to debate. That conversation will wander.
Sam Harris has tried going vegan/vego numerous times but struggles with it. His diet probably sucks. But he’s admitted numerous times it’s the morally superior choice which is why he’s tried to make it work. The others are lost causes but I’d love to see Ed on Rogan
"Animals can't suffer".
*Same guy 10 seconds later*
"We shouldn't make other animals suffer unnecessarily."
I admire Ed's patience.
Bro didn’t even realise he contracted himself 😭
Of course we shouldn't make animals suffer unnecessarily. We should just eat them, since they're our species-specific food.
@@isidorochannel We are omnivores, we can CHOOSE what we eat. We are the most mutagenic species in the Planet, we are filled with cancers and cosmic dreams, and science. And we have machines and thumbs, go vegan pls, it's already late for nature...
@@isidorochannel 🤡
Yes, I was wondering If I was the only one to notice that this guy was a hypocrit...
Seems like he's unaware of the undeniabe fact that humans are animals. We feel just like other animals do, especially when we are talking about pain. It is very obvious animals actively try to avoid suffering.
Majority of people (carnists), especially religious ones, indeed don't realize humans are animals although they are taught in biology class.
humans are animals by a humans definition, we are not animals in reality
ANIMALS deserves to be food 🥩🍖🥩🐖 for those who want it to be that way 😉
Classifying beings based on their 'intelligence' (that we, humans, know of, but what if we know not all that much?) is a terrifying idea.
THANK YOU. I have pointed this out many times that the idea of humans being more intelligent than animals is unproven and vegans should stop saying it. It's just another way humans try to assert their superiority.
@@harveyplantharvester1502 rationality makes humans different from animals, not intelligence
@@ehrenromblon5392 The problem is that I know many, many irrational humans and very few irrational animals, although I do appreciate you taking intelligence out of the equation. The claim that humans are "more intelligent" is one of superiority. Perhaps the key difference is that animals are like the children and humans are the parents/guardians of these innocent beings who need protection. (Of course the ones in the wild can take care of themselves and we should not interfere except to protect their habitat much as possible)
During the interview, I was just wondering if this man has ever seen a non-human animal?
Only in the forest when they're in the sight of his hunting rifle.
He sees them on his plate, and it's very delicious, and that's how it has to be 😉
@@donolonisa5787 Imagine a cannibal leaving the same comment about you 😈
Dean of this University: I don't know if I should raise the standard of this Uni or fire the biology teacher.
Their life deserves our consideration. 🙏
"We don't really know how conscious animals are do we?" - I mean, we know enough to know they experience negative states like pain and fear so that's really all I need to know. I don't need a cow to appreciate a symphony or anything before I say "oh well I guess I won't eat you then because you've justified your existence to me".
You say that and yet: th-cam.com/video/qs_-emj1qR4/w-d-xo.html 🥰 It's not a symphony but it is adorable.
Excuse me do you like Fur Elise? Oh you dont? i guess it's ok for me to eat you then =D bon apetite
He still thinks they don't feel anything. Need to show him a video of a mother cow chasing her newborn calf....
They DO appreciate music. .
He embarrassed himself, he didn’t have ONE not one intelligent argument. Uhhhmm uhhhmmm plaaaants have feeelings!!! HAHA!! Embarrassing.
I agree. Ed could have been so much better. well, maybe he's just tired
Great patience as always! This guy would definitely infuriate me. His logic is just crazy.
There is no logic
@@hannahmitchell87 my response exactly! 😀
When people don't know either way, they default to the answer (correct or not) which supports their current beliefs and behaviours. This is a human failing that has been endlessly exploited by the tobacco, sugar and animal ag industries. All these industries have to do is sow doubt. In doubt, people choose not to change.
It's such a sadly and horrifyingly tried and true tactic that it really is all it's going to take for the fossil fuel industry to kill us all
we could even agree on what you just said. you basically described vegan ideology 101
@@v.a.n.e. Come on. That is such a low-effort "no, you are" kind of comment. Almost every vegan today changed their past beliefs and behaviors.
I just agreed, that's all. I've met very few vegans who didn't sound totally scripted, and very few are able to construct cogent thoughts. veganism is a cult @@TXRhody
@@v.a.n.e. The reasons those vegans sound scripted is because those scripts have been shown to work. In fact, many of those vegans used to have certain beliefs about animals and animal welfare but were forced to change their beliefs when confronted with evidence to the contrary and when forced to challenge their beliefs by similar scripted speech. Just because some people have similar beliefs that does not mean those beliefs are necessarily dogmatic or irrational, especially if those people arrived at those beliefs through exploration of empirical evidence and logical discussion.
So as long as plants feel pain it's ok to make animals feel pain?
Yeah, I’m convinced we’re getting stupider as a species.
I'm convinced as well. The Golden Age in 500 BCE (the era of vegan Pythagoras) was one of great enlightenment... the ancient Egyptians knew how to harness energy using aquifers and magnetic fields. Now look at the human race! You can blame it on being chemically dumbed down by pharma poisons pushed on babies and children, but we've also lost common sense and capacity to listen to instincts etc.
Where do we send your medal?
@@SamWest-tq6kr you don’t.
@@blindbookworm8019 Covid19, "meat is unhealthy", the government cares about you, conventional schooling is positive and "educational", if you believe these, and the rest, you truly are stupid
you're just so unconditionally kind and clear as always, thank you so much for everything you do.
Stop the presses. It's time to become enlightened.
As a dog mom I really appreciate you talking about vegan dog food! Since there aren‘t any good and yummy vegan food options for my dog where I live, I started cooking for her myself, completely vegan and she could not be any healthier. Definitely gonna be trying out the vegan treats from omni tho ☺️
Sooo much patience. I feel like he might have never seen animals being abused in factory farms
It´s always strange to observe that people who don't care much about animal suffering seem to suddenly develop a spontaneous concern about the suffering of plants. But hey, guess this dude is not the most reflected student in his university and in his cognitive orbit. It´s obviously like uncle albert mentioned already: "Universities are beautiful dunghills on which a noble plant occasionally grows." cuz in the end "Education is what's left when you forget everything you learned in school." ;)
Maybe it goes over your head but it's not actually an argument for plants, it is questioning vegan consistency.
@@MustardSkaven Wanna talk about consistency, buddy...? Sure, we can have a deeper chat about that topic, after we cleared some irrefutable facts, dude. Well, if you don't consume any animal products, you will regularly be confidently pointed out that plants are living beings after all. Often in the belief that they will completely overwhelm the vegan with this supposed news.
So why do vegans supposedly care about other living beings and criticize the killing of animals, but have less trouble killing plants. No, it's not because plants don't have cute beady eyes that make you sentimental or because it's not so nice to stroke them, because vegans don't eat animal products - not even from "ugly" animals. Short answer: Plants are not consciously capable of suffering and cannot feel pain. Of course, they are also living beings. When a vegan speaks - perhaps a little imprecisely - of living beings, then he generally means "living beings capable of suffering". Plants have nothing comparable to a central nervous system or a brain.
Sure, there are pseudo-scientific studies from time to time according to which plants supposedly start to "scream" when someone approaches them who has torn off their leaves or where it is believed to be proven that plants, although they have no ears, like it when you talk to them and with pleasure listen to classical music. However, intensive serious research has yielded no evidence that plants have any kind of conscious sensations. Pain exists to protect higher beings from harm. However, since plants cannot escape, it makes no evolutionary sense that they would develop something like a sense of pain.
We now have a good understanding of what is required for something like consciousness and the ability to feel pain, and without something like a central nervous system and some kind of brain, something like that doesn't exist in nature.
Plants are the closest thing to biological automata. Of course, they also react to their environment and sometimes communicate with each other to a certain extent, but smartphones, for example, do the same and we would hardly call them capable of suffering in a conscious sense.
Of course, even if one could expect plants to have some kind of consciousness, one should try to cause as little plant suffering as possible without sacrificing one's right to life.
For ecological reasons, plants should be harmed as little as possible today, and vegans kill very few plants, because in order to produce animal products, one has to feed a large number of plants. Depending on the animal species, up to 15 times as many calories are needed from plants as are subsequently obtained in the form of meat. So, to meet my energy needs, I can either kill a certain amount of presumably susceptible plants, or kill a definitively susceptible animal that requires killing many times that number of plants to feed it.
Even if, contrary to all scientific knowledge, one not only assumes that plants and animals can feel suffering and pain equally, but hypothetically completely denies animals the ability to suffer and assumes that plants can actually suffer, I have the choice of whether I want to accept the suffering of some plants cause by eating them directly, or multiple plant suffering by eating meat. So even if plants are capable of suffering and animals are not, vegans cause less suffering. And if we drop the fictional assumption that animals don't suffer, the suffering of the animal even outweighs that of the plants.
If all of this doesn't convince you that there are crucial differences between animals and plants, you can do a little experiment for yourself: People have the rather strange custom of giving each other the sexual organs of plants on various occasions. Just give away a bouquet of pig penises instead at the next opportunity and let me know how it went.
Of course, I'm not asking you to buy animal products, but maybe the trustworthy butcher on the corner has a few left over that he hasn't put in the sausage yet. ;)
@@robflynn5682 "Sure, we can have a deeper chat about that topic, after we cleared some irrefutable facts, dude. Well, if you don't consume any animal products, you will regularly be confidently pointed out that plants are living beings after all. Often in the belief that they will completely overwhelm the vegan with this supposed news. "
Well, let's not start off our little "fact run" by immediately stating a falsehood, shall we? The "plants are alive" argument is to confront vegans with the futility of the "muh sentience" argument. It's not about overwhelming anyone, it's about pointing out a clear flaw in an argument.
"Plants have nothing comparable to a central nervous system or a brain."
Which is an arbitrary line to draw and it's based on your opinion. Which is the entire point of the "plants are alive" argument.
"We shouldn't hurt the animals cause they feel pain!" Why? Cause YOU personally believe pain (only using a central nervous system) is that important and is thus the place to draw the line.
"However, intensive serious research has yielded no evidence that plants have any kind of conscious sensations."
Which is only important to YOU cause of your personal opinion and views.
"For ecological reasons, plants should be harmed as little as possible today, and vegans kill very few plants, because in order to produce animal products, one has to feed a large number of plants. Depending on the animal species, up to 15 times as many calories are needed from plants as are subsequently obtained in the form of meat. So, to meet my energy needs, I can either kill a certain amount of presumably susceptible plants, or kill a definitively susceptible animal that requires killing many times that number of plants to feed it."
Not that I care for ecology but I do care for facts. Let's not leave out the fact the majority of animal feed are plants that are not edible to humans anyway.
"Even if, contrary to all scientific knowledge, one not only assumes that plants and animals can feel suffering and pain equally, but hypothetically completely denies animals the ability to suffer and assumes that plants can actually suffer, I have the choice of whether I want to accept the suffering of some plants cause by eating them directly, or multiple plant suffering by eating meat. So even if plants are capable of suffering and animals are not, vegans cause less suffering. And if we drop the fictional assumption that animals don't suffer, the suffering of the animal even outweighs that of the plants."
Again falsely assuming the "plants are alive" or "plants feel pain" arguments are actually advocating for plants.
The plants are alive argument, as I already explained, is to point out the futility of the sentience argument.
The plants feel pain argument, is to point out the arbitrary nature of requiring a central nervous system. Since to any rational human, the essence of pain is the ability to sense when you are being hurt, whether that occurs through a central nervous system would be secondary. So vegans don't really care about "doing no harm", they only care if the harm can be perceived through a central nervous system specifically.
"If all of this doesn't convince you that there are crucial differences between animals and plants, you can do a little experiment for yourself: People have the rather strange custom of giving each other the sexual organs of plants on various occasions. Just give away a bouquet of pig penises instead at the next opportunity and let me know how it went. "
False assumption that I am not aware of differences between plants and animals. That's also a very disingenuous example. We do gift each other stuffed animals or parts of animals such as their hide. We value different things from different species, depends on what that thing is and how pretty it looks.
What does any of this have to do with consistency again?
@@MustardSkaven "Not that I care for ecology but I do care for facts. Let's not leave out the fact the majority of animal feed are plants that are not edible to humans anyway."
Well, about 85% of the total world soy crop is used as animal feed. Meat then contains only about half as much protein per kilo as soy. And soy can be consumed directly by humans. But instead, such foods are thrown to animals to produce meat from, at an energy loss of up to 97%. This is probably the worst magic trick in the world: you turn 100 kilos of food into three kilos and a huge pile of shit. So, even if you dont care about ecology or anything else outwards your selfinterests, that sort of "efficiency" factwise is kinda silly, isnt it? ;)
Of course, not all of it would be directly edible for humans, because they are also fed so-called roughage, which is not suitable for human consumption and which often does not grow on arable land where human food could be grown instead.
But after fattening it for the usual 60 weeks, you "get" around 300 kg of edible meat from a cow. In addition to the average 6,900 kg of roughage, about 1,200 kg of concentrated feed were used, which occupied a lot of arable land. The amount of concentrated feed alone is a multiple of what you end up with as meat. And you need about half a hectare of land for that. A field of this size could have produced about 2,000 kg of grain or 15,000 kg of potatoes during this time!
Anyway, I think you're smart enough to know all the facts, but your reasoning also shows that consuming animal products is mostly a matter of habit and education, and not really based on rational choices. You don't sit down and think critically about whether animal exploitation is okay and then decide to do it, but have lived in a society since birth where it's done that way and you try to rationalize it afterwards. I assume, I know were you coming from, cuz probably I´ve been there already. I´d eat meat and dairy products for half of my life and I fuggin loved it, as long I didnt question if my inner stance would correlate with my daily actions.
Basically, that's the oldest story in the world: people who profit from the game in one way or another don't want to change the rules. But animal products cause suffering, injustice and environmental damage and are not necessary for us at all. There are simply no good reasons to eat meat or animal products anymore. But there are plenty of good reasons to stop doing it.
What distinguishes human animals from non-human animals? Well, most people would say we're smarter. And because we're a very greedy, rapacious form of ape, we're very good at modifying our environment to achieve our goals. That is what makes our civilization.
A distinction is made between vital and non-vital interests. Vital ones are those that must be fulfilled in order to live reasonably well. "Good" in the sense of "not unpleasant". Non-vital ones are those that may, but do not necessarily have to, be met. Food, shelter, water, these are vital interests. Owning a Ferrari is not vital. Children learn this distinction in school. The difference between wanting and needing.
Seen in this way, animals also have vital and non-vital interests. What we humans do with animals is this: We ignore their vital interests in order to fulfill comparatively unimportant interests for us. We treat them miserably, eat them because we want something nice to eat, and exploit them in myriad ways for our convenience and self-interest. When an individual's vital interests are bypassed in order to satisfy non-vital interests, he is treated as morally irrelevant.
If someone kidnaps you, rips out your organs and sells them to buy a Ferrari, you as a individual don't count morally. And this is always the case when we allow non-vital interests to take precedence over vital ones. That's why the way we treat animals is just wrong.
Cognitive dissonance is something we humans do best. We are true masters at it! By and large, we just don't think about these things. When we buy meat from the supermarket, we don't think about how the animal lived and died. Otherwise we wouldn't want to eat it. Actually we are very good at NOT thinking about things.
Jean Paul Sartre said, that we humans have no predetermined nature. We are free to choose who we want to be. Animals, on the other hand, are simply slaves to their biological heritage. They cannot decide autonomously how they want to live.
I think that's wrong! - It's just human arrogance that says we choose how ever we want to live. Other animals are not allowed to do this. That is a very strange and unjustified assumption...
Anyway, take care and dont trip over your conditioned beliefs, mate. ;)
@@robflynn5682 "Well, about 85% of the total world soy crop is used as animal feed. "
And only 1% of all animal feed is soy. The majority of animal feed being grasses and leaves. 85% of 1% is not a lot, is it? Let's stick to the relevant numbers.
The paragraphs about how inefficient animal farming is in terms of calories are irrelevant to the discussion.
"Anyway, I think you're smart enough to know all the facts, but your reasoning also shows that consuming animal products is mostly a matter of habit and education, and not really based on rational choices. You don't sit down and think critically about whether animal exploitation is okay and then decide to do it, but have lived in a society since birth where it's done that way and you try to rationalize it afterwards. I assume, I know were you coming from, cuz probably I´ve been there already. I´d eat meat and dairy products for half of my life and I fuggin loved it, as long I didnt question if my inner stance would correlate with my daily actions."
That's a bold assumption to make. I have thought about it and realised animal exploitation is A-okay. Just because YOU went through a certain path and came to a certain personal realisation doesn't mean it's true for others.
"
Basically, that's the oldest story in the world: people who profit from the game in one way or another don't want to change the rules. But animal products cause suffering, injustice and environmental damage and are not necessary for us at all. There are simply no good reasons to eat meat or animal products anymore. But there are plenty of good reasons to stop doing it. "
This is mostly opinion, of course. What you call unjust or good, others may not.
"What distinguishes human animals from non-human animals? Well, most people would say we're smarter. And because we're a very greedy, rapacious form of ape, we're very good at modifying our environment to achieve our goals. That is what makes our civilization. "
Don't forget about sapience.
"A distinction is made between vital and non-vital interests. Vital ones are those that must be fulfilled in order to live reasonably well. "Good" in the sense of "not unpleasant". Non-vital ones are those that may, but do not necessarily have to, be met. Food, shelter, water, these are vital interests. Owning a Ferrari is not vital. Children learn this distinction in school. The difference between wanting and needing. "
Yes, there are things you can't reasonably survive without like food or shelter and there are luxury things like electronics, cars, etc. We are in agreement here.
"Seen in this way, animals also have vital and non-vital interests. What we humans do with animals is this: We ignore their vital interests in order to fulfill comparatively unimportant interests for us. We treat them miserably, eat them because we want something nice to eat, and exploit them in myriad ways for our convenience and self-interest. When an individual's vital interests are bypassed in order to satisfy non-vital interests, he is treated as morally irrelevant. "
Yes! We don't consider animals to be as morally relevant as humans at all!
"Cognitive dissonance is something we humans do best. We are true masters at it! By and large, we just don't think about these things. When we buy meat from the supermarket, we don't think about how the animal lived and died. Otherwise we wouldn't want to eat it. Actually we are very good at NOT thinking about things. "
Except I am very aware of how my meat got there. I actually am in the habit of looking out for organ meats whenever I can. Why are you falsely assuming that if we think about where it comes from, we wouldn't want to eat it? Just cause this may be true FOR YOU doesn't mean it's true for others.
I understand it's important for a dedicated vegan to have the belief that everyone can be converted as they have been. That there is hope that one day every person can become vegan, "if only they saw the error of their ways". This is a requirement for the vegan agenda to have any hope. Don't let it get in the way of seeing things for how they really are, however.
"Jean Paul Sartre said, that we humans have no predetermined nature. We are free to choose who we want to be. Animals, on the other hand, are simply slaves to their biological heritage. They cannot decide autonomously how they want to live.
I think that's wrong! - It's just human arrogance that says we choose how ever we want to live. Other animals are not allowed to do this. That is a very strange and unjustified assumption... "
That's great for Sartre. Who is it that allows or not allows humans or other animals to live they way they want to live?
"Anyway, take care and dont trip over your conditioned beliefs, mate. ;)"
There's nothing conditioned about it. I am actually going against norms here, as a carnivore.
Animals all feel compassionate and love like humans ❤️ this hunter is insane
That is a ridiculous statement. You really think a bear or a tiger tearing another animal apart and eating it alive has "compassion and love?" Animals torture each other all the time. How is that compassionate?
@@lashedbutnotleashed1984 Humans kill animals moe brutally. Do we still feel compassion and love?
@@lashedbutnotleashed1984Why are you looking to nature ?
Your honour I killed my baby and ate it as many animals do it to .
Lions are obligate carnivores , how on earth do they kill a animal less cruelly ?
They have no choice , you do .
@@lashedbutnotleashed1984 I think a bear protecting her cubs from a poacher, or a tiger grooming their mate are both signs of compassion. Nature is full of cruelty but also beautiful things. You're just ignoring the softer sides to these beings.
@Lashed but not Leashed I didn’t realize you were either a bear or tiger.. wow you are incredible smart if you are. It’s almost as if you have the intellect and knowledge to not function and their level yet here you are comparing yourself to them again.. 🙄
I wonder if this guy walks around thinking he's intelligent?
Please stay kind. I'm vegan and I hate arguments like "plants feel pain" but let's not insult carnists/ anyone like that.
@@pacmanmcgavin7034 Compared to you definitely.
@@jdmmg4904 Nothing insulting about his comment. He was just wondering what this guy thinks. Stop being so sensitive to animal abusers.
He is intelligent
@@donolonisa5787 Ed? Yes, the other guy not so much as was clearly proven by the way he got destroyed.
Whenever someone says plants feel pain, I point out that plants don't have a brain or a central nervous system, and people will respond "YES THEY DO" smh
The strongest response is to admit that they might feel some pain but that we expect it to be the lowest of options we can eat (due to expected lesser sentience). From there we can point out that if you're concerned about plants feeling pain, most plants are "murdered" to feed to animals and if we stopped eating animals, we could harm less plants by eating them directly.
@@jeff.howard Excellent point.
So, they should be opposed to lawn mowing. Let the grass grow, don’t hurt it😂
Arbitrary "muh central nervous system".
Can you describe pain in your own words? No scientific definition, just tell us what the essence of pain is.
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
I really love how he concluded the discussion "I think that's a fair argument and I'll consider it"
Sometimes that's all we really need, not for people to immediately agree or disagree with us but simply to understand the reasoning of an argument and take it into consideration as they continue to learn and go about life 👍 Well done Victor and Ed!
We need these conversations ❤
Damn, it's really difficult to not just say: "this dude is simply an idiot". We've all been there before I know but once you see it an understand it it's just difficult to process the arguments people make to justify animal suffering.
Why? Have compassion for him, he even says he'll consider the argument in the end. Everyone has been ignorant about something at points in their lives. Not everyone has ruminated on all subjects to have well structured critical reasoning behind their arguments, but through deep debate, most people are capable. He just seems like a potential future vegan to me.
I haven't been there... EVER! Do not assume that everyone is like you.
@@vincentizghra6144 I’m sorry but that’s not what I see, he has a tangible wall of resistance towards that topic and he comes out dishonest. It’s ok to be ignorant of things however if you’re still cocky that you have the upper hand (to say the least) I’d say that’s pretty low standard.
@@vincentizghra6144 Claiming there's no proof that animals have feelings is way beyond just being "ignorant." To admit that would spoil his hunting and fishing enjoyment of killing.
It's food 🐖🐓🐠🐢🦑🦞🐙🦪🥪🌭🍔🌮🍗🍗🥩🥩🍖
Our dog Leeping has been plant based for 7 years he is 12years old and so healthy. Has had no trips to the vet in 7 years except to sew up a wound made by a wild boar! Which he recovered from very quickly. I cook his food once a week , easy and cheap. He gets very excited at meal time and enjoys his dinners of lentils, rice, flax grated courgette and beetroot etc.
My neighbors are vegan activists and their dog is on a vegan diet as well. In fact they got it trained to go to the bathroom in my yard. And we live over a hundred yards apart.
That is THE best diet for a dog - home-cooked lentils, rice & vegetables, it's what one of the world's longest living dogs (25 years) named Bramble ate! (And that's smart to keep him away from vets with their poison and shots)
@@Empathy4Animals411 I know my neighbors feed their dog the same diet. It shits a liquid green in my yard. They trained to shit in my yard.
@@Empathy4Animals411 Thanks ,I agree.Our dog is the living proof of that and his diet reduces other animal suffering too.
Well, to be honest all plants have more brains than this bloke. And all hunters actually.
We do in fact know that animals suffer and feel pain. If he took two seconds to google “do animals feel pain?” His entire argument immediately goes out the window
I just did a Google search on this and was shocked that the results were mostly pro-animal, as in yes, they do feel pain much like humans. Then of course there's the blatant lies from pharma like this one "Most animals experience only minimal pain or brief discomfort when they are used in research."
Animals may not be able to verbally tell me that they feel pain, but neither could a human who speaks a different language from myself.
The screaming and crying of animals suffering goes beyond words.
Not to be negative so early, but some of these guys thoughts, (or what they claim are), are kinda scary.
Edit: Not just this person specifically, just this type of person ed debates.
No this guys scary!
what is it about this type of person that is so scary?
Aka the majority…?
@v.a.n.e. he will casually say we don't really have evidence babies feel pain. Like, let's let that sink in. Not even placing it next to his other statement that plants might feel more than animals which is logically inconsistent with his other view that... and it kinda goes on from there.
These are the hardest kind of conversations, when the person refuses to be wrong and would rather argue terrible arguments and say 'I don't believe', than they would accept they're wrong. It's really just pathetic.
Also a classic example of, "The reasons I harm and kill animals for fun is moral but no one else's!"
my comments are way more clickbaity then yours.
@@v.a.n.e. And yet I still managed to be correct.
this is the first time, at least in the comments that I read, you actually mention morality. just curious, what is your moral framework? @@suicune2001
@@v.a.n.e. I've mentioned morality lots of times. You just don't pay attention. I've tried several times to inform you of the unnecessary suffering and death to both animals and humans you cause by eating animals and you shrug it off every time. So clearly you have no problem killing others for your own personal entertainment. Therefore, I see little reason to keep wasting my time on you. All you have in your own defense is, "I don't believe that" as if that proves anything and some stupid statistic you like to throw around which isn't even meaningful.
I apologize for taking up your time. It's not going to happen again
Has this cold hearted boy never been round an animal in his life? H doesn't know dogs have learning abilities, memories and scream if pain is inflicted upon them.? He finds every excuse he can to disregard what any decent human being is in no doubt of.....animals feel pain, suffer and are a life in their own right.
Anyone who has taken a dog to the vet for the second time knows that animals not only feel pain, they feel fear and they remember. This guy lost all the arguments, knew he had lost the arguments but just didn't want to admit it.
Is memory an important part of the reason why animals deserve moral consideration?
I love your videos and what you do Ed!, But man, these single-sided debates are getting boring 😂. Non-vegans just have absolutely nothing in these debates. At this point, it's like arguing with a flat-earther.
I love the comparison with flat-earthers because the arguments are of the same level honestly
But I still think these videos are useful, they give us a broad range of things to say against those kind of arguments we could definitely hear from a non vegan
Also the more videos the more exposure so it's always a benefit
Meh I just eat animals because they are a food source and my taste is more important
@@rondarkman. updating profile picture and name just to try to make vegans mad or sth is the most pathetic thing I've seen in a while xD Dude srsly, get a life ^^
Yes, it's hard to see this and Ed is amazing for keeping his cool no matter what these people say that is ridiculous.
@@angierhinier
Her cool .. ed is in transition
If he sees a video of a pig in a gas chamber, would he still believe that animals don't suffer?
I envy your debating skills and patience to point out that they're just morally wrong.
“You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity.”-Ralph Waldo Emerson
All animals are conscious, not all animals are self-aware of their consciousness. This dude might be confused of these two terms.
Are there any rational minds at any American universities?
No :) a carnivore diet makes everyone stupid hahaha
Why can't it be the default assumption to believe that animals are conscious and sentient when so many things point to it.
"Plants feel pain" is an excellent reason to go vegan. So much plantfood goes into animals to make meat and other animal products... Very inefficient and plant-unfriendly
the question isnt whether animals think or feel, its whether plants do. we know plants can sense light, warmth , gravity and wetness. how do they grow upright without a sense of balance? is posesion of light sensing cells not what we call sight? how do seeds know when its the right time to germinate? plants are obviously alive and have the ability to sense their enviroment. thinking its more moral to kill plants over animals is just virtue signalling for the unenlightened
Never concede that plants feel pain. If someone doesn't understand that something without a brain or central nervous system can't feel anything then they're too dumb to even talk to.
Carnist logic falls apart under the slightest scrutiny.
Sure, at least it's logic and not emotion.
@@MustardSkaven Which fell apart dramatically. And you seem a bit emotional about it since you're here whining.
@@JL-zm6md A single reply equates to whining? Talk about being dramatic and emotional, lol.
Try making an actual argument next time, champ.
@@MustardSkaven Stop whining.
@@JL-zm6md Lol, make me, baby.
Arguing against veganism makes intelligent people look fooolish , or perhaps their not as intelligent as they think they are ?
Even as a carnist I knew I was a hypocrite , didnt want to be one any more so slowly switched to veganism , 25 years vegan now !
If you actually cared about animal suffering you were a massive hypocrite indeed.
@@MustardSkaven that's okay we will stay a hypocrite lol cry now
@@lisanyugenhascancer6332 Are you insane or something? I'm not the one crying about animals.
@@MustardSkaven I didn't make the switch overnight .
At least I didn't make the silly excuses carnists make not to be vegan.
@@MustardSkaven How many vegans switch overnight ?
As a general observation they switch over to a elimination diet over time ...
Someone should develop a program where these people's speech is converted to text in real time, and then automatically replace "babies" to "animals". Let them read the text, and they will realise that whatever reason they give for not wanting to eat a baby also applies to animals
Will forever amaze me how people have so much confidence and willingness to debate without any self-awareness or thinking through even a shred of their argument whatsoever
Great interview!
"I understand where you're coming from" = "You got me, but I'm scared to admit it"
0:32 “No, we….we do…”😂😂
How does anyone graduate from high school not knowing that plants do not have pain receptors to be able to feel pain but animals do? We DO know that. The state of the education system in the US must have slipped into redundancy for someone coming out of it to be talking like that.
Animal agriculture has a big hold on the education system, just like any other evil industry. It's now standard practice for students to dissect baby pigs in science class just to desensitize them (it used to be frogs). A lot of them have 4-H programs to encourage them to become animal farmers, etc.
Thank you for all you do Ed! I'm glad you're exposing the carnist cult!
A vegan cult in disposal diapers tries to change a billion years of Animal Meat Consumption 😆😆😆🤣🤣
We can't talk about the biosphere and ecosystems without talking about the food chains: Lions are obligate carnivores. They are apex predators that prey on gazelles that have gotten their protein and carbohydrates from grass, and the grass has gotten its energy and calories from the sun. The sun is the source of energy for the most of the food chains on earth. 80% of the biomass on earth is comprised of plants. A good amount of a lion's diet comes from scavenging as it is efficient compared to hunting the weak, ill, young and old gazelles. Lions are also not moral agents that we can point to for our moral standards. When a lion forces themselves on a lioness, a suspect in a court of law can't use that to justify his actions to a judge. All plants are producers/autotrophs and all animals, including humans as they are part of the animal kingdom, are heterotrophs/consumers, as they can not make their own energy. For humans, when there are plants to eat, it becomes cruel to hurt some one else to eat their dead body.
Being an omnivore just means that we can digest animal protein, but there is no necessity for the animal protein. We can also turn our hands into a fist and attack some one with them. Just because you can do something with what you have, doesn't mean you should. Many major dietetic associations have made statements that a planned, vegan diet is appropriate for all stages of the human life cycle. Taking it further, a planned, whole food, vegan diet is amongst the healthiest you can eat. Plant protein comes packaged with fiber, antioxidants, and phytonutrients, while animal protein comes with cholesterol, increases trimethylamine N-oxide, has higher proportion of the essential amino acids (which is a characteristic of animal protein) results in our bodies producing higher levels of the hormone insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1), higher concentrations of sulfur-containing amino acids, which can induce a subtle state of acidosis when metabolized.
80% of total agricultural land is devoted to animal agriculture yet yields only 20% of the calories! This is because most of the plant calories consumed by cows, pigs and chickens go towards their body's homeostasis and metabolism, which is the priority, not to building flesh on the bones. Think of the poor countries that are growing soybean and wheat fields to ship it to wealthier countries to feed cows so they can eat a steak! Since animal agriculture uses so much wilderness, it is a large driver for deforestation, habitat loss and species extinctions. In areas where it uses land that is not arable for crop farming, but is being used for cattle, it is still taking land away from native animals that used to use it for eating the native vegetation! 60% of the mammals on earth are livestock (predominately cattle and pigs), 36% are humans and 4% are wild mammals. An acre of cereal produces 5 times the protein of meat; legumes 10 times more; leafy vegetables 15 times more.
🌏🌱☀
"I just dont know whether pruning a rose bush is the same as chopping a dogs leg off".......................definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed!
So I guess the pain that the cow felt when having their throat slit in order for him to eat the steak sandwich from subway sandwich means nothing.. 🥴
Buddy wanted to leave twice because he knew how much he was embarrassing himself. Luckily for him the second try worked. Unlucky for the animals as he seemed to be dishonest about his own morals. Hopefully this conversation knocks some sense into his brain.
Thank you Ed for raising awareness
You know you fucked up when you try to end someone elses video that you volunteered for 😂
I was going to write something more brutish, but I'll settle for this:
That guy is not the smartest person in the universe.
Please don't insult him. What you wrote is still brutish enough.
@@jdmmg4904 You're right!
I also think, however, that my empathy is slightly lower for someone who jumps through a series of hoops to justity the slaughter of animals
When people try to make up excuses to harm others 🙄
this guy whole argument is that “we don’t know if animals suffer”. okay? why wouldn’t you just stop eating them regardless, just in case they do? this isn’t a justification, he clearly just wants to keep eating them because he thinks they taste good.
Debater: I think we should leave it there for today.
Ed: no
😂
Re Omni vegan dog food in UK - here in Australia we have Veganpet, vegan dog food and vegan cat food, in cans and also dry in big packets/boxes.
I love the respectful and thoughtful way Ed id having these conversations, that's how you change people!
Yet, I still saw pig's getting gutted, but I didn't see Ed intervened 😆🤣😆😆🤣
“I think we should leave it there for today.” 😅😅😅
This is great 😊 thanks for sharing this ❤
I respect the young man who sat down for this conversation. I also appreciate Ed’s non-confrontational approach. We can’t change minds by getting angry, acting condescending, or being verbally abusive.
Omni seems awesome!
I have met so many 'vegans' who feed their pets non-vegan products. That is not vegan... They are still contributing to death & suffering by doing that.
Whilst I had the opportunity to, I had fed my family's dog the same food I ate. Whole foods. Fruits, vegetables, grains & nuts. The dog was much happier, showed signs of much more energy, their body was in a healthier shape, even their fur. And then when It was no longer my choice what to feed the dog, who was forced to go back on a meat-based diet, they went back to being super sedentary, tired, & slow to process information.
When you say "pets" I hope you're just referring to dogs and not obligate carnivores like cats. Dogs are omnivores that have been proven to thrive on home-cooked lentils/rice and vegetables per Guinness World Records. Cats however will get sick from such an alkaline diet, including developing life-threatening urinary tract crystals and blockages. And slaughterhouses are not open for pets, they stay in business because of humans, so worry about the humans being vegan first.