its funny, if anyone would understand flowey, its shayy. Constantly resetting to find or do something new. Constantly resetting to achieving a new goal.
they've actually mentioned a couple of times on streams and on twitter that their connections and similarities as a speedrunner to Flowey are part of why they wanted to make this video
@@reinbew62I think he’s just talking about bad, manipulative people in general. Not as a direct correlation as ACTUAL ‘Flowey’s’ as in people with control over the timeline.
If you think about it's actually crazy how Groundhog Day was both inspired by Undertale and named the way it was in reference to how Flowey burrows underground, it's truly beautiful how much impact Undertale has had ❤ I think this video breaks down the essence of Flowey in a very easy to comprehend manner, nice work with this! I did unfortunately have to skip the In Stars and Time analysis on account of not having played the game though, hopefully I'll have checked it out by the time DeltaRune is finished in like 5 years or whatever
I honestly love how in undertale yellow when you explore flowey's memories in the nuetral ending you see how the realization of his powers and inability to feel drove him insane. His first few memories are scared and afraid. But in the last few? Youcan tell he's completely lost it.
i feel like undertale yellow does flowey perfectly as shows how insane he has been from his resets, his choices not mattering and with him not being able to feel anything
There is a Flowey fan game called ‘Floweytale’ in development, it’s nothing to do with me but it looks really cool and there was a trailer released yesterday under a channel of the same name. I recommend checking it out :)
0:00 Hm yes normal undertale content yippee 0:49 wait a minute that's in stars and time music, in a time loop video 4:25 oh that's an oddly specificly worded analogy to make- *LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOO-*
@frkieran puts my hands gently on your shoulders. Thats the point im afraid of being in a time loop. Siffrin feels it too. Let yourself be invested in characters over gameplay every once in a while. Wouldnt going through everything over and over be tiring? Its okay if that type of storytelling didnt gel with you. But dont claim its mid because of it, like it detracts from the game. Anyway. Off to watch the video and forget i commented this.
@@frkieran I mean... while you _can_ skip most dialogue and run away from all battles (especially with Memory of First Strike, or Memory of Sadnesses), being mildly annoyed by having to redo the same things, over and over again, kinda puts you in Siffrin's mindset, no? The game makes you feel sadness, anger, anxiousness, and dread through story elements, but also, frustration through having to redo the same things over and over. Even then, _you're not forced to_ . You can loop to the king instantly, or to a room with all doors unlocked...
@@frkieran But of course just the fact that it's the point doesn't automatically mean you're not entitled to your opinion. You're free to like/dislike aspects, whether they're intended or not. I was just throwing my two cents.
No matter what happens in Undertale, if you play for long enough, you become Flowey. It’s as Sans says, _“no matter what, you'll just keep going._ _not out of any desire for good or evil..._ _but just because you think you can._ _and because you "can"..._ _... you "have to."_
Exactly. I always thought most people misread Undertales Genocide ending. The game isn't really making any moral statements on your character. The characters in-game think you're evil, but Toby Fox doesn't. It's literally just inevitable, it's the fate of all games. You lose interest, you lose investment, you lose Suspension of Disbelief. Whether or not you stick to the Pacifist Ending, you will move on and forget the love you had for these characters. We will always become Flowey.
Time loop stories in general are so cool because they diegetically link the player to their character. Siffrin is stuck in a time loop, which as stated before is kind of treated as a narrative foil to player’s saving and loading and detaching from the world, only in his case, we stay with him the whole way down. We get used to the game like he does, the happy moments we once laughed at or cried at become nothing but meaningless repetitions the same way they do for him. I remember significant portions of the game where I’d almost go on autopilot, walking into rooms not even sure why I was walking into them, only to realize that my body had remembered before my brain did. I’d zone out through whole floors. Even the party that I adored stopped feeling like a group of people and more like mannequins, repeating the same lines and only serving to slow me down. At some point the whole House felt like muscle memory. You can get this disconnect from any game if you play it long enough, but In Stars And Time is special because that disconnect is the whole point. That’s the arc of Siffrin’s character, and you fulfill it whether you want to or not, growing numb and cold and unfeeling to it all as each new loop sends him spiraling and desperately trying to find a way out before it utterly consumes him. Some of Siffrin’s lines of thought by the end even mirror Flowey’s. Because it’s not so bad, is it? To be here forever? You like knowing what to say. You like knowing what to do. And you still haven’t exhausted all your options. There’s still more things you can try. Just one more loop. Just one more reset.
my favorite part of ISAT is when the head housemaiden said "Something's broken, something's failing, rotting!! It's like you're In some king of........ *STAIRS AND TIME* "
9:32 - 9:53 reminded me of another similar moment from In Stars And Time (MINOR SPOILERS): At some point in the game, if you play your cards “right” you’ll gain the ability to use your own dagger on yourself, as a faster way to time loop whenever you please. But the first time Siffrin goes to use the knife, they are uncertain, but reassure themselves saying the death will be instant. The death was not, in fact, instant. Where the correlation begins is after multiple uses of the Dagger. Siffrin grows more accustomed to the pain and simply believes it’s a faster way to get around. As another character puts it, he starts to view his body as worthless; empty even, much like a certain SOULless flower. It’s these kinds of interactions that make a good time loop game so intriguing. To have a character be uncomfortable with a situation at first, but overtime that uncertainty diminishes into nothingness, lacking no empathy for anyone, even themselves, and the feeling that they have to keep going no matter what, because if they don’t, then what would be left for them?
I love Flowey so much, and imagining how he lived for his first few resets. I like drawing the connection between the emptiness he feels due to his lack of a soul to the kind of emptiness you can feel when you have depression or as a consequence of trauma in certain cases. As someone who has suffered from long-term depression up until very recently, I know what it is to *know* that you love someone, like your family members or friends, because you have for your whole life, but not being able to feel it. So much guilt, except dissociation prevents you from even feeling guilty, which make your thoughts even guiltier and make you hate yourself even more. So you ruminate, your thoughts are so bad but you don't feel them. Flowey, I'm sure, ruminated about his time with Chara so much. I have a lot of headcannons that tie into that. All this to say, I love when fiction uses a magical element (i.e: Flowey's soullessness) to explain real life problems such as PTSD (which Flowey/Asriel does literally have), depression, dissociation, etc. I've done this myself in a short story and really enjoyed it! ♥
Honestly, even in the context of Flowey's soullessness being used textually to make an argument for Flowey's lack of love towards his family - I would argue that it's less soullessness, and more trauma. All of the information regarding "soullessness" being why he's like this - whether it's the actual fact that he's soulless, or that it's causing him to no longer feel compassion - it all comes from him. Like a traumatized child, he is coming up with a reason that's bigger than him as to why he acts the way he does. He's not exactly a reliable narrator - especially now that we have the alarm clock dialogues, and that those are canon to the true pacifist route.
I don't buy the idea of Flowey "lacking emotion" - he expresses glee and resentment and fear, he just does not seem to notice through the blanket of dissociation unless they reach truly extreme levels.
Master class of a video. I love the comparison between Siffrin and Flowey, especially when you highlighted that Flowey literally can't feel empathy. Who has it worse, I wonder?
Specifically with the part of the game shayy mentioned in this video, id say siffrin. Imagine being trapped in a literal groundhogs day with seemingly no way out and you have to act like everything is fine for those you care about. With flowey's situation at least he has total control over it until the player comes along
@@rw7429I mean to genuinely ask, and not at all to be negative or provoke, but I must ask - why's is it gross? It's provoking exploration, theorising and so on - as since in this case they are characters and not people, in a situation that as far as I can see is very much fictional, but such a fascinating fictional scenario at that, it is one that examines in itself the idea of detachment and disassociation really well. I think OP here is basically inviting discussion and to say "no that's bad they're both variable" is a null terminator to said discussion, compared to that of say, the video above.
I’d say Siffrin. He has no control over his situation, anymore, he’s stuck. Flowey? He can end it whenever he wants, he just chooses not to, sure; he can’t feel empathy, but he can feel everything else.
Fantastic video essay, really highlights a lot of what makes Flowey such a brilliant character to me. I do have a theory on Flowey that I find to be both supported and contradicted by this analysis. When you say it out loud it totally makes sense that Flowey physically not having a soul would prevent him from feeling empathy. But I've always found this explanation...a little hollow? From what I can remember, no one except for Flowey himself suggests that the lack of a soul directly affects his emotional capacity. To me, it has always come off more as something he tells us-- and himself-- to justify his behavior. Flowey definitely CAN feel emotions, and at different points throughout the story he does. And while the alarm clock dialogue events are not canon, they were written by Toby completely in-character, and we see there that Flowey can absolutely feel bad for people. I don't think Flowey's scientific lack of a soul has much to do with his actions at all, and I don't even think it's necessary to have that be the case. Flowey was a child who lost his best friend (and had a hand in killing them no less), and when trying to honor his dead friend's wishes he was slaughtered by an angry mob, after which he died in front of his own parents. From there he was unrecognizable even to the people who loved him most. It was from there that he found that he could not escape life even when he wanted to, and he was instead forced to live in a time loop where it becomes increasingly obvious that there is no depth to the people around him. Sure, his parents were nice to him, but they were being nice towards a friendly stranger they had just met, not THEIR OWN SON. I think this analysis goes a lot into why I think the "doesn't have a soul" aspect is kind of irrelevant and only serves to help Flowey sleep at night: He didn't need any scientific reason to reach the player's level of disconnect from reality, just like we don't need to have any sort of scientific deficiency to play all three routes of Undertale. Being stricken with such immense trauma and finding out that no one around you can reach your level, except for your dead friend who you can never bring back? I think that's more than enough to make him act this way without any other in-universe reason. And I think that's important, because the "lack of a soul" thing creates a false degree of separation between Flowey and the player. It allows us to say "oh well if I was in his situation I'd be better, because I'd have a soul," when the truth is that he's just a kid, reacting in a way that most traumatized children put into his circumstances probably eventually would.
I fully agree with this. the AU Undertale Inverted Fate plays with this idea later in the story and it is so fascinating. (SPOILERS BELOW) As Papyrus eventually puts it ""Is a soul really required to love others? They say souls are the culmination of our being. And his being is still Asriel"
Even if the lack of a soul does prevent Flowey from feeling empathy or love that wouldn't on its own stop someone from showing love for other people's benefit and considering their actions with other people in mind, especially with the memory of love and understanding of other people's emotions even if such things are no longer built in. Not being able to feel empathy or love would not stop someone from 'thinking' empathy or love, to paraphrase Terry Pratchett's Discworld.
This! I started to lean towards thinking Flowey/Asriel just couldn't feel empathy due to trauma and having the overpowered mentally destroying ability to time travel back to the starting point over and over again, as from a long comment I read on one Flowey related video bringing up that the book in the library doesn't actually state that monster souls are made of compassion, just that it's according to what monsters think monster souls are, and by extension what Flowey believes as well, when really this poor kid just shut down and isolated himself from the world so he doesn't get hurt again or hurt anyone else cause he loathes himself for partially playing a part in his adopted sibling's plan to commit suicide and rightfully refusing to not attack the humans in the village to free everyone (seriously what is with the kids in undertale and taking their own life/getting put heavy responsibilities on them only adults can handle? Anyway, if I had a nickel for every time a child kills themselves, I'd have 3 nickels, including Clover), I also want to say that the alarm clock dialogue is actually canon btw just looked it up to check and it's heavily implied that the events take place 1-2 months after the true pacifist ending, Undertale's events might place on summer vacation from the skateboard girl NPC.
In the snowdin library their is a book that states that a monster soul is made out of love, hope and compassion, through out the game the only time flowey seems to experience any of those emotions is during the asriel dreemurr boss fight which happens after flowey has absorbed every monster soul in the underground.
@@primordialpink The book says that love, hope and compassion is what people said that monster souls are made of, but the nature of the SOUL is unknown, so it seems like even the monsters don't know what the SOUL's purpose is as a whole, to me the way it's worded seems like the "monster souls are made of compassion" is a belief, Jerry for example is a jerk and he doesn't look to be very sweet and made of love, in one of the alarm clock dialogues, Flowey did laugh at how miserable Toriel was all knocked out on the floor, he then tucked her into bed and gave her a glass of water after that, which is pretty kind of him to do, and he didn't tell us that part, we got that from Toriel's dialogue, if Flowey is as "soulless" and "heartless" as he is, then he would have just abandoned his own poor drunken mother on the floor, and this was way before Frisk fell, even after Asriel is back into his flower form after the fight, he tells us not to true reset and let Frisk live their life.
So I ended up buying the game because of that (yes i skipped to 7:37 :V) as it sounded really interesting to me and now I've been playing this for 3 days straight. (Send help I need sleep ._.)
I just wanted to leave a comment to let you know that I played ISAT because of your recommendation!! And it was AMAZING, I LOVED IT SO SO SOOOO MUCH, LIKE UGH!!! Thank you for introducing me to this game!!! Now I'm obsessed in the best way possible!!!!
Honestly seeing a video about Flowey in my recommended feed jumpscared me. Flowey is genuinely one of my favorite characters in all of fiction. From the moment I first found out about undertale, I fell in love with the guy. I’m honestly convinced he’s shaped my taste in characters as a whole. (simple design, little piece of shit, sad backstory, etc.) and I’m gonna be completely honest, the main reason I played undertale yellow is because he played a big role. this video does an amazing job of explaining the whole reset thing, and has got me genuinely considering playing In Stars and Time. Keep up the good work!!!
*"That's a wonderful idea"* is one of Flowey's lines that I really love also👍 I feel like saying the line in front of people, dang, I even said it once to some friends of mine😂
I’d love to see a video essay potentially a follow up on how undertale yellow expands upon and subverts this time loop by having you play as one of Flowey’s pawns rather than the one who is in control. You get a first hand look into how Flowey interacts with Clover who usually lacks enough determination to get control over the timeline and by extension, the treatment much of the rest of the undertale and undertale yellow cast got. There are instances where he will manually reset the game if Clover makes a decision that he doesn’t like. In the original undertale we only get glimpses of this when he has the souls but that’s it.
I’ve kinda wanted to try writing my own essay about Flowey, why he’s my favourite character in the game and why he’s such an interesting character. This is a great video and I’m just happy you did it.
Many years ago, someone went: “what if you had to repeat the same day multiple times. That would suck… and make a good movie” and that idea caused two of the greatest games I’ve ever played to be made
I felt like i got a shoutout at 9:06 because i was one of those people who just played true pacifist and then never touched the game again. I listened to flowey.
Usually when people put in the "skip here to avoid spoilers" I don't, but I've had my eye on In Stars and Time for a while. Glad to hear you recommend it. When I eventually get around to it I know I'll enjoy it.
That's a common misconception. The quote actually belongs to Neoglitch Bonelord, a fractured alternate universe reflection of Sans who's dedicated his life to hunting down evil Sanses across timelines and avoiding the Sansgularity. After reaching LV 666, he grew powerful enough to kill the concept of Genocide itself, and then he did it again in a mirror universe just to be sure, but before he could do that, the two Genocides had a baby that was reincarnated as a human to avoid Neoglitch's wrath. When Neoglitch found out, the Genocide Progeny found a way to give him amnesia, which eventually led to the two of them becoming best friends... until one day, Neoglitch remembered. The human was, in fact, two genocides in the flesh. Eventually, outsiders took the quote out of context and now they think it's a typo.
It's why I like Flowey so much. He's an experienced player who's done it all and has seen it all. I also like how in the end after all that looping, he just gives up on everything and spends god knows how long in the ruins just chilling there. ...Until Frisk falls down.
this video just made me realize i fell victim to part of undertale's writing flawlessly i was talking with my friend about undertale, and they said they'd never done the genocide route i responded with "damn, really? it's got some of the most fun gameplay in undertale." and they said they didnt want to tarnish the memories they had with those characters i basically just said "ah, that's funny. i've done it seven or eight times by now." and they looked at me for a moment and i realized how insane i sounded
I kinda love seeing how characters with time control change how they see their actions Like, in Re:Zero, the mc (Subaru) 'loops' back in time when he gets killed. He figures this out by slowly dying from being murdered, then suddenly opening his eyes to a few hours back But it's how he'll save people..! So... (Mild spoilers past the first episode) At some point he begins to see his life as disposable, and will let himself die in "failed" loops to save everyone else. The author has even written IF routes, like one where he becomes so obssesed with perfection he loops back in time when he can't answer a question as small as "What will be the weather later?" (End of spoilers)
Re Zero Spoilers He’s been working on seeing his life as having more worth by Season 2 and yeah I see you referenced Greed IF. My favourite IF route has to be Gluttony, which I personally think is the most tragic one despite ‘Subaru’ not dying there.
Re:Zero mentioned, beyond based. Also, to add to that (mild spoilers): I find it extremely interesting that due to the nature of the time loops in Re:Zero's narrative, the entire plot more or less relies on the mc (my boy Subaru) to actually act Like, a lot of time loops tend to follow a plot already, with the main character having to solve or at least tweak the time loop, but with the plot always being clear (i.e: defeat the king, everyone is trapped on the underground, etc) But Subaru? The plot of the story depends solely on his actions alone, because his actions directly affect the world at large (via the butterfly effect). That's why all the IF routes are so overwhelmingly different from one another, because Subaru's actions vastly change the consequences of the plot on a fundamental level Like, the plot of Greed IF, Sloth IF and Gluttony IF are all completely different from each other, if you were to give them genres, they'd all be completely different by default In a way, Re:Zero is an amazing example of time loops in storytelling, because the time loop is the main drive that molds the story, having a plot that's specifically molded around the main character's actions, and not the other way around
i loved this video! i think you hit the nail perfectly. flowey has always been one of my favourite undertale characters, so seeing a video that is both satisfying and gives people a better understanding of him is really cool. i would love to see more of this content, keep it up man 👍
Shayy talking about my favorite Undertale character (and one of my favorite video game villains overall) and a very awesome game I've gotten into almost a week ago = fantastic analysis video. I likewise definitely recommend In Stars and Time! It's very charming and well-made.
i Knew that isat was going to be brought up because it Did truly make me understand further how flowey felt in the Timeloops and i even told my friend after streaming it to him that hey yeah this is very Flowey Undertale. not to mention just how much isat changed my life (for the better) it is my all time favorite game.
I loved this video, especially because it makes sure to acknowledge that not everybody does abuse the reset power with some only playing a single pacifist route and then stopping. I know they aren't real and I even tried disconnecting myself by doing a genocide route first because I knew I would get attached to the characters, but I gave up because of a lack of skill and from that moment on I just did a single pacifist run and have left the ending as it was, not resetting or playing again. I know I can and there is no reason not to, but if I can't fully commit to it anyways, then I at least want to leave the characters in the best state I can.
Good video essay. 👍 If I had the saving and loading ability, I would probably mostly use it to undo trivial embarrassments and mistakes. I wouldn't want to constantly re-write things I've written and have conversations over again if I were to reset to a far point in the past.
Really love the video essays your doing now! Honestly it’s starting to make me start noticing things a lot differently and making me have a whole new perspective and appreciation for undertale and it’s writing! ❤
The ISAT music at the start was an unexpected surprise but I didn’t think you’d actually mention the game itself!! Love that game, I reward you (1) one carrot slice.
It really puts in perspective your role as speedrunner. Trying to see how fast you can snuff out every ounce of life without remorse. Awesome video, would love to see more like it.
A video about Flowey and Timeloops? Aww yeh you know I'll be here for this! I like these little video essay's Shay, i hope to see you make more sometime! :)
I love videos like these, it’s sort of like applying psychology and some philosophy principles to a game we all know and love. it’s a different take on a type of video that’s extremely common in the undertale community
Love the video essay format, and the way you explained flowey's role in the game actually made sense, and character analysis for characters this complex can be really hard to do for a lot of people. Shayy video essay content is great, and it'd be cool to see one on deltarune if you're willing to do that. I skipped the In Stars and Time section because I haven't played it yet but it's cool that you included a reference to a generally unknown game like that. I'll have to play it as soon as I can.
Shayy, you're feeding my hyper-fixation. I dont know how this video came out exactly when I was obsessing over ISAT but gods if this isn't serendipitous.
Oh boy i can't wait to watch this video again after finishing in stars and time! Edit: i am half way into the game (it's really good and funny) and I think I siffrin is actually is going insane
YESSSS YESSSSSSSS YESSSSSSSSSSS (i talk with spoilers for the whole game through this comment so beware) . my first thought of the big point of differentiation between siffrin and flowey is that siffrin isn't alone in the loops while flowey is. but it is true that the fact that they love their friends so much puts them through so much distress, to the point that he'll loop back whenever he scares them or makes them uncomfortable. there definitely ARE moments where sif loses his grip on it though, moments where he teeters on the brink of going flowey's way (that variant of the friendquested housemaiden cutscene where they just smile out of love, even as their friends' distress is replayed... in this moment you are loved etc) but he's just... human. too human to truly lose his way. the reason the loop even started in the first place is because he loved them too much to let them go. they just turn that suffering inward on themself (and a wee bit of violence toward the king, gotta love those two internal monologues) instead of putting others through it (TWOHATS SPOILER) . . and even loop, who was totally alone for everything, couldn't lose their footing either. loop visibly tries to be teasing about it and give this impression that they do not care for siffrin's suffering but it FAILS. MISERABLY. they are AGGRESSIVELY human. and it makes me SICK.
IN STARS AND TIME MENTIONED In all seriousness, I put off watching this video because I was already completely familiar with Flowey, and had also played In Stars and Time, so I was IMMENSELY pleased to learn that game prompted this video's creation. I'd argue both games share something thats both a distinction and a similarity with their timeloop explorations: Guiding/guessing the player's mindset. Undertale is very good at predicting the player's mindset, creating Flowey as an accurate image of what a repeat player will become and the steps that lead them there. Meanwhile, ISAT focuses on a main character that is ENTIRELY separate from the player with no fourth wall anything, so it instead uses astonishingly good writing dialogue and monologue to bring the player in line with wherever Siffrin is at the time, and the way you puzzle out the game's events and follow its emotional crests and valleys will be in perfect sync with Siffrin's, achieveing a frankly insane level of immersion for a game that explicitly does not have a player vessel character.
It’s been scientifically proven that the human mind will indeed do something again if it doesn’t have consequences in real life, so you can apply this video there as well.
The second I opened this video, I commented that you should play ISAT. I then deleted that comment after I heard the ISAT OST playing in the background.
SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP
The game doesn't expect you to stop doing geno after the New Home monologue because it makes subsequent runs make no sense, so Flowey keeps the same standard geno-abort dialogue. I wouldn't even consider it canon that you CAN stop, as goofy as that sounds.
damn I played In Stars and Time back when it had a demo in a Next Fest like 2 years ago now? And I thought it seemed great but the number of people who's opinions I respect giving it props both makes me happy and tells me I need to get around to playing it already.
One part of Flowey's story I don't really get - confinement in the underground has a clear endpoint just at the point where Frisk arrives, so how did Flowey get to the point where he was so bored that he had to see everything anyone would say under any circumstance? Surely just seeing what happens if he lets time play out naturally would be more interesting than rewinding an uncountable number of times?
@@maskedmanpkclysm5327 Yeah, that one's a hard sell because there's still plenty of joy as of the time Frisk arrives. Things are bleak, but there's still fun and joy readily findable
"letting things play out" would absolutely not be more interesting. Why would you wait a week to see if person A has something slightly different to say when you could reset and see what person B is talking about right now? Waiting around for stuff to happen would get super boring super quick when he has no actual purpose or life
@Cruxin But Flowey has to wait for the timeline to catch up to what he wants to test regardless. Waiting for one timeline to come to its conclusion would probably be _more_ dense with new interactions than testing specific things as Flowey thought to try them
@@sparky6757 theres no "it's conclusion". he doesnt know frisk is coming, as far as hes concerned he has a forever sandbox. and the undergound is stale, things arent changing, everybody is wallowing in dissatisfaction. people aren't moving anywhere in their lives and nobody is going to have anything different to say one day from the next. theres nothing to wait for. nothing for "the timeline to catch up to"
BIG SPOILERS FOR IN STARS AND TIME At 6:55 you mentioned that Siffrin loops back out of convenience or when something is uncomfortable. Later on you find out he is not doing this intentionally, and is a side-effect his wish. Since the wish was to "Stay with them", if those "uncomfortable" moments are enough to permanently damage his friendships (at least in his book), his wish craft automatically loops him back. Other than that, he can only loop back through death.
Really, really good analysis of one of the best pieces of writing in undertale (even if i had to skip the isat section because i am avoiding spoilers for that game like the plague)
Huh.
That's why he keeps saying "see that heart? No shit!" Because he's so tired of relooping that same soul shit
See that heart? No shit!
* See that heart? No? Shit!
@@Fiannasworldx that actually makes sense. It would surprise me if that was a line he would actually use if you redid neutral runs enough time.
@@Fiannasworldx" SEE THAT HEART, NO SHIT???? "
*See that heart? No shit!*
its funny, if anyone would understand flowey, its shayy.
Constantly resetting to find or do something new.
Constantly resetting to achieving a new goal.
they've actually mentioned a couple of times on streams and on twitter that their connections and similarities as a speedrunner to Flowey are part of why they wanted to make this video
@@PoketrainerMS cool!
@@KingStudios360new Flowey and Speedrunners have a lot in common that's for sure, for any game really
@@KyoshiCadre this gave me an image in my head of flowey speedrunning
@@someonessecondaltaccount6932 flowey punch cards himself
Remember what Asriel said at the end of the pacifist route if you back to talk to him?
"Be careful Frisk, there are a lot of FLOWEYs out there."
I think that's talking about other players
@@reinbew62I think he’s just talking about bad, manipulative people in general. Not as a direct correlation as ACTUAL ‘Flowey’s’ as in people with control over the timeline.
@@TJ-hg6opnah he defo means there's 400 floweys
the media literacy of Undertale fans never ceases to disappoint. OBVIOUSLY he's talking about the tumors in my butt
@@fed3758god i wish
“Undertale is a videogame”
Great start , 10/10 video, complete cinematic masterpiece
And it’s very much a main point of the video, a masterclass in video essays.
If you think about it's actually crazy how Groundhog Day was both inspired by Undertale and named the way it was in reference to how Flowey burrows underground, it's truly beautiful how much impact Undertale has had ❤
I think this video breaks down the essence of Flowey in a very easy to comprehend manner, nice work with this! I did unfortunately have to skip the In Stars and Time analysis on account of not having played the game though, hopefully I'll have checked it out by the time DeltaRune is finished in like 5 years or whatever
I hope Deltarune gets finished in my lifetime.
()
omg chris mon
had to look up groundhog day's release date to see if you were joking or not.
No tf it wasn’t
I honestly love how in undertale yellow when you explore flowey's memories in the nuetral ending you see how the realization of his powers and inability to feel drove him insane. His first few memories are scared and afraid. But in the last few? Youcan tell he's completely lost it.
This new TH-cam feature always distracts me from reading comments
@@APieceOfDamnBreadYeah. What even point of this thing? If I want to find "undertale yellow", I can do it myself.
i feel like undertale yellow does flowey perfectly as shows how insane he has been from his resets, his choices not mattering and with him not being able to feel anything
Absolutely, Yellow did Flowey justice!
Yeah Flowey really makes Undertale yellow what it is without him Clover's journey would be pretty bland tbh.
Well, yellow is the color of flower petals Wait, that’s not how the quote goes
his choices nit mattering? Hoky shjt thats lime dletarhne omg wtf
@@SkylerDemness is that a pun?
I know Undertale flowey is the main villain, but I would love to see a whole fan game dedicated to flowey just being THE villain
There is a Flowey fan game called ‘Floweytale’ in development, it’s nothing to do with me but it looks really cool and there was a trailer released yesterday under a channel of the same name. I recommend checking it out :)
Wdym?
Agreed
Not really what you ask, but check inverted fate
Its an AU where flowey/asriel ends up creating another timeline at the end of a pacifist run
Coincidentally I was planning one by the time you mentioned this lol!
"THIS VIDEO IS SPONSORED BY...but nobody sponsored"
Cue mus_toomuch
@@Dogempire-001 that’s a good thing
@@MANOFACTION-jh4fz never said it wasnt
@@Dogempire-001 great to know
Chara:🔪❤️
_*but nobody sponsored_
0:00 Hm yes normal undertale content yippee
0:49 wait a minute that's in stars and time music, in a time loop video
4:25 oh that's an oddly specificly worded analogy to make-
*LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOO-*
I had literally the same reaction
bruh that game was so mid, just so much backtracking and long generic battles
@frkieran puts my hands gently on your shoulders. Thats the point im afraid of being in a time loop. Siffrin feels it too. Let yourself be invested in characters over gameplay every once in a while. Wouldnt going through everything over and over be tiring?
Its okay if that type of storytelling didnt gel with you. But dont claim its mid because of it, like it detracts from the game.
Anyway. Off to watch the video and forget i commented this.
@@frkieran I mean... while you _can_ skip most dialogue and run away from all battles (especially with Memory of First Strike, or Memory of Sadnesses), being mildly annoyed by having to redo the same things, over and over again, kinda puts you in Siffrin's mindset, no?
The game makes you feel sadness, anger, anxiousness, and dread through story elements, but also, frustration through having to redo the same things over and over. Even then, _you're not forced to_ . You can loop to the king instantly, or to a room with all doors unlocked...
@@frkieran But of course just the fact that it's the point doesn't automatically mean you're not entitled to your opinion. You're free to like/dislike aspects, whether they're intended or not. I was just throwing my two cents.
No matter what happens in Undertale, if you play for long enough, you become Flowey. It’s as Sans says,
_“no matter what, you'll just keep going._
_not out of any desire for good or evil..._
_but just because you think you can._
_and because you "can"..._
_... you "have to."_
Exactly. I always thought most people misread Undertales Genocide ending. The game isn't really making any moral statements on your character. The characters in-game think you're evil, but Toby Fox doesn't. It's literally just inevitable, it's the fate of all games. You lose interest, you lose investment, you lose Suspension of Disbelief. Whether or not you stick to the Pacifist Ending, you will move on and forget the love you had for these characters. We will always become Flowey.
Chara ain't doing shit we're in the control of this bitch
Yeah, that line exemplifies it perfectly. Masterful writing.
such a good line
@@pancakes8670 Don't forget
Time loop stories in general are so cool because they diegetically link the player to their character. Siffrin is stuck in a time loop, which as stated before is kind of treated as a narrative foil to player’s saving and loading and detaching from the world, only in his case, we stay with him the whole way down. We get used to the game like he does, the happy moments we once laughed at or cried at become nothing but meaningless repetitions the same way they do for him.
I remember significant portions of the game where I’d almost go on autopilot, walking into rooms not even sure why I was walking into them, only to realize that my body had remembered before my brain did. I’d zone out through whole floors. Even the party that I adored stopped feeling like a group of people and more like mannequins, repeating the same lines and only serving to slow me down. At some point the whole House felt like muscle memory.
You can get this disconnect from any game if you play it long enough, but In Stars And Time is special because that disconnect is the whole point. That’s the arc of Siffrin’s character, and you fulfill it whether you want to or not, growing numb and cold and unfeeling to it all as each new loop sends him spiraling and desperately trying to find a way out before it utterly consumes him.
Some of Siffrin’s lines of thought by the end even mirror Flowey’s. Because it’s not so bad, is it? To be here forever? You like knowing what to say. You like knowing what to do. And you still haven’t exhausted all your options. There’s still more things you can try. Just one more loop. Just one more reset.
my favorite part of ISAT is when the head housemaiden said "Something's broken, something's failing, rotting!! It's like you're In some king of........ *STAIRS AND TIME* "
@@eli_three I cried when The King said: "It's crying time" and cried all over the place
Stairs? Omori reference!?
me too
IVORY?!??!?!!??!??
[mirabelleshocked]
Siffrin, i remember you're timeloops
More Shayy video essay content, AND talking about In Stars and Time? Yes, please.
me when in stars and time :>
agree
I LITERALLY JUST FINISHED THAT GAME
@@GDgabeI LITERALLY JUST STARTED SO ILL BE SKIPPING THAT PART💀
gold mine
10:33 I thought this was going to be the first ever Shayy video without Ball Game footage, but alas he snuck in one game right at the end
9:32 - 9:53 reminded me of another similar moment from In Stars And Time (MINOR SPOILERS):
At some point in the game, if you play your cards “right” you’ll gain the ability to use your own dagger on yourself, as a faster way to time loop whenever you please. But the first time Siffrin goes to use the knife, they are uncertain, but reassure themselves saying the death will be instant. The death was not, in fact, instant.
Where the correlation begins is after multiple uses of the Dagger. Siffrin grows more accustomed to the pain and simply believes it’s a faster way to get around. As another character puts it, he starts to view his body as worthless; empty even, much like a certain SOULless flower.
It’s these kinds of interactions that make a good time loop game so intriguing. To have a character be uncomfortable with a situation at first, but overtime that uncertainty diminishes into nothingness, lacking no empathy for anyone, even themselves, and the feeling that they have to keep going no matter what, because if they don’t, then what would be left for them?
I love Flowey so much, and imagining how he lived for his first few resets. I like drawing the connection between the emptiness he feels due to his lack of a soul to the kind of emptiness you can feel when you have depression or as a consequence of trauma in certain cases.
As someone who has suffered from long-term depression up until very recently, I know what it is to *know* that you love someone, like your family members or friends, because you have for your whole life, but not being able to feel it. So much guilt, except dissociation prevents you from even feeling guilty, which make your thoughts even guiltier and make you hate yourself even more. So you ruminate, your thoughts are so bad but you don't feel them.
Flowey, I'm sure, ruminated about his time with Chara so much. I have a lot of headcannons that tie into that.
All this to say, I love when fiction uses a magical element (i.e: Flowey's soullessness) to explain real life problems such as PTSD (which Flowey/Asriel does literally have), depression, dissociation, etc. I've done this myself in a short story and really enjoyed it!
♥
Honestly, even in the context of Flowey's soullessness being used textually to make an argument for Flowey's lack of love towards his family - I would argue that it's less soullessness, and more trauma. All of the information regarding "soullessness" being why he's like this - whether it's the actual fact that he's soulless, or that it's causing him to no longer feel compassion - it all comes from him. Like a traumatized child, he is coming up with a reason that's bigger than him as to why he acts the way he does. He's not exactly a reliable narrator - especially now that we have the alarm clock dialogues, and that those are canon to the true pacifist route.
I don't buy the idea of Flowey "lacking emotion" - he expresses glee and resentment and fear, he just does not seem to notice through the blanket of dissociation unless they reach truly extreme levels.
@@lilith3133 Omg someone who gets it!!
1:19 why did I deadass think you were gonna do it
I got an ad right before it
Master class of a video. I love the comparison between Siffrin and Flowey, especially when you highlighted that Flowey literally can't feel empathy. Who has it worse, I wonder?
Specifically with the part of the game shayy mentioned in this video, id say siffrin. Imagine being trapped in a literal groundhogs day with seemingly no way out and you have to act like everything is fine for those you care about. With flowey's situation at least he has total control over it until the player comes along
kinda gross note to end on: "who has it worse" they're both tragic in unique ways
@@rw7429I mean to genuinely ask, and not at all to be negative or provoke, but I must ask - why's is it gross? It's provoking exploration, theorising and so on - as since in this case they are characters and not people, in a situation that as far as I can see is very much fictional, but such a fascinating fictional scenario at that, it is one that examines in itself the idea of detachment and disassociation really well. I think OP here is basically inviting discussion and to say "no that's bad they're both variable" is a null terminator to said discussion, compared to that of say, the video above.
I’d say Siffrin. He has no control over his situation, anymore, he’s stuck.
Flowey? He can end it whenever he wants, he just chooses not to, sure; he can’t feel empathy, but he can feel everything else.
Flowey can't feel positive emotions because of the trauma he experienced both while alive and after his successive resets.
Fantastic video essay, really highlights a lot of what makes Flowey such a brilliant character to me. I do have a theory on Flowey that I find to be both supported and contradicted by this analysis. When you say it out loud it totally makes sense that Flowey physically not having a soul would prevent him from feeling empathy. But I've always found this explanation...a little hollow? From what I can remember, no one except for Flowey himself suggests that the lack of a soul directly affects his emotional capacity. To me, it has always come off more as something he tells us-- and himself-- to justify his behavior. Flowey definitely CAN feel emotions, and at different points throughout the story he does. And while the alarm clock dialogue events are not canon, they were written by Toby completely in-character, and we see there that Flowey can absolutely feel bad for people. I don't think Flowey's scientific lack of a soul has much to do with his actions at all, and I don't even think it's necessary to have that be the case.
Flowey was a child who lost his best friend (and had a hand in killing them no less), and when trying to honor his dead friend's wishes he was slaughtered by an angry mob, after which he died in front of his own parents. From there he was unrecognizable even to the people who loved him most. It was from there that he found that he could not escape life even when he wanted to, and he was instead forced to live in a time loop where it becomes increasingly obvious that there is no depth to the people around him. Sure, his parents were nice to him, but they were being nice towards a friendly stranger they had just met, not THEIR OWN SON. I think this analysis goes a lot into why I think the "doesn't have a soul" aspect is kind of irrelevant and only serves to help Flowey sleep at night: He didn't need any scientific reason to reach the player's level of disconnect from reality, just like we don't need to have any sort of scientific deficiency to play all three routes of Undertale. Being stricken with such immense trauma and finding out that no one around you can reach your level, except for your dead friend who you can never bring back? I think that's more than enough to make him act this way without any other in-universe reason. And I think that's important, because the "lack of a soul" thing creates a false degree of separation between Flowey and the player. It allows us to say "oh well if I was in his situation I'd be better, because I'd have a soul," when the truth is that he's just a kid, reacting in a way that most traumatized children put into his circumstances probably eventually would.
I fully agree with this. the AU Undertale Inverted Fate plays with this idea later in the story and it is so fascinating. (SPOILERS BELOW)
As Papyrus eventually puts it ""Is a soul really required to love others? They say souls are the culmination of our being. And his being is still Asriel"
Even if the lack of a soul does prevent Flowey from feeling empathy or love that wouldn't on its own stop someone from showing love for other people's benefit and considering their actions with other people in mind, especially with the memory of love and understanding of other people's emotions even if such things are no longer built in.
Not being able to feel empathy or love would not stop someone from 'thinking' empathy or love, to paraphrase Terry Pratchett's Discworld.
This! I started to lean towards thinking Flowey/Asriel just couldn't feel empathy due to trauma and having the overpowered mentally destroying ability to time travel back to the starting point over and over again, as from a long comment I read on one Flowey related video bringing up that the book in the library doesn't actually state that monster souls are made of compassion, just that it's according to what monsters think monster souls are, and by extension what Flowey believes as well, when really this poor kid just shut down and isolated himself from the world so he doesn't get hurt again or hurt anyone else cause he loathes himself for partially playing a part in his adopted sibling's plan to commit suicide and rightfully refusing to not attack the humans in the village to free everyone (seriously what is with the kids in undertale and taking their own life/getting put heavy responsibilities on them only adults can handle? Anyway, if I had a nickel for every time a child kills themselves, I'd have 3 nickels, including Clover), I also want to say that the alarm clock dialogue is actually canon btw just looked it up to check and it's heavily implied that the events take place 1-2 months after the true pacifist ending, Undertale's events might place on summer vacation from the skateboard girl NPC.
In the snowdin library their is a book that states that a monster soul is made out of love, hope and compassion, through out the game the only time flowey seems to experience any of those emotions is during the asriel dreemurr boss fight which happens after flowey has absorbed every monster soul in the underground.
@@primordialpink The book says that love, hope and compassion is what people said that monster souls are made of, but the nature of the SOUL is unknown, so it seems like even the monsters don't know what the SOUL's purpose is as a whole, to me the way it's worded seems like the "monster souls are made of compassion" is a belief, Jerry for example is a jerk and he doesn't look to be very sweet and made of love, in one of the alarm clock dialogues, Flowey did laugh at how miserable Toriel was all knocked out on the floor, he then tucked her into bed and gave her a glass of water after that, which is pretty kind of him to do, and he didn't tell us that part, we got that from Toriel's dialogue, if Flowey is as "soulless" and "heartless" as he is, then he would have just abandoned his own poor drunken mother on the floor, and this was way before Frisk fell, even after Asriel is back into his flower form after the fight, he tells us not to true reset and let Frisk live their life.
4:40 Audibly gasped when Shayy mentioned ISaT.. Hyperfixations combine!!
me too!!! i could not contain my excitement!!
So I ended up buying the game because of that (yes i skipped to 7:37 :V) as it sounded really interesting to me and now I've been playing this for 3 days straight. (Send help I need sleep ._.)
@@Lanausse YIPPEE
Guess who finally finished the game after being hyperfixated on it for 2 weeks. It was such a good game.
In other news... @@ivorywizard Oh god I didn't know you were also a Siivagunner fan. All I'm gonna say is...
I just wanted to leave a comment to let you know that I played ISAT because of your recommendation!! And it was AMAZING, I LOVED IT SO SO SOOOO MUCH, LIKE UGH!!! Thank you for introducing me to this game!!! Now I'm obsessed in the best way possible!!!!
Honestly seeing a video about Flowey in my recommended feed jumpscared me. Flowey is genuinely one of my favorite characters in all of fiction. From the moment I first found out about undertale, I fell in love with the guy. I’m honestly convinced he’s shaped my taste in characters as a whole. (simple design, little piece of shit, sad backstory, etc.) and I’m gonna be completely honest, the main reason I played undertale yellow is because he played a big role. this video does an amazing job of explaining the whole reset thing, and has got me genuinely considering playing In Stars and Time. Keep up the good work!!!
you should play In Stars and Time. I would very much recommend it. It has permanently altered my brain chemistry.
I... never realized this and I feel uncomfortable but in a good way.
This makes yet another layer of depth to Undertale I didn't know about.
I have so much Flowey brainrot, I literally caught myself saying "Howdy" to someone i had js met last wek, lmao
Yes, because Flowey invented the term 'Howdy!'. (Just kidding, I get what you mean)
to be fair it's a perfectly viable greeting, you wouldn't come across as too weird
*"That's a wonderful idea"* is one of Flowey's lines that I really love also👍
I feel like saying the line in front of people, dang, I even said it once to some friends of mine😂
bro I get you, I've started greeting people in a group with "beauties and gentlebeauties" lol
Every time i see flowey i think of AI undertale so in my mind i say; "See that heart? No sh*t!"
me hovering over the video like "I KNOW Shayy is gonna say something about In Stars and Time" and seeing it on the youtube preview was really funny
00:53 the In Stars And Time theme kicking in told me it was gonna be a banger video
Correct
flowey is like a sunflower with no sun to look at :(
No wonder why he's white than brown (humour)
that made me so sad for no reason at all why would you do this to me
I’d love to see a video essay potentially a follow up on how undertale yellow expands upon and subverts this time loop by having you play as one of Flowey’s pawns rather than the one who is in control. You get a first hand look into how Flowey interacts with Clover who usually lacks enough determination to get control over the timeline and by extension, the treatment much of the rest of the undertale and undertale yellow cast got. There are instances where he will manually reset the game if Clover makes a decision that he doesn’t like. In the original undertale we only get glimpses of this when he has the souls but that’s it.
fellow bunbun!! 💛🐇
you should totally play "her tears were my light", thats HEAVILY about the rewind mechanic
oh that game looks so cool, I'll check it out later today.
I’ve kinda wanted to try writing my own essay about Flowey, why he’s my favourite character in the game and why he’s such an interesting character.
This is a great video and I’m just happy you did it.
I was watching this like "Man this video is so cool, Flowey reminds me of Siffrin now" and then I got jumpscared by ISAT
Shayy giga chad moment
It’s funny how Cartoonishly Evil Flowey and funny relatable Siffrin are so similar in so many aspects.
Many years ago, someone went: “what if you had to repeat the same day multiple times. That would suck… and make a good movie” and that idea caused two of the greatest games I’ve ever played to be made
DEFINITELY keep making these video essays! This was interesting!
You could even say,
Very, VERY interesting...
I felt like i got a shoutout at 9:06 because i was one of those people who just played true pacifist and then never touched the game again. I listened to flowey.
Usually when people put in the "skip here to avoid spoilers" I don't, but I've had my eye on In Stars and Time for a while. Glad to hear you recommend it. When I eventually get around to it I know I'll enjoy it.
You want to say that.... Sans doesn't remember you're genocides????
Human... i remember... *you're sans's*
😔
Human.. i remember your bones
He do actually remember save and load but not the resets and nobody can remember true reset
That's a common misconception. The quote actually belongs to Neoglitch Bonelord, a fractured alternate universe reflection of Sans who's dedicated his life to hunting down evil Sanses across timelines and avoiding the Sansgularity. After reaching LV 666, he grew powerful enough to kill the concept of Genocide itself, and then he did it again in a mirror universe just to be sure, but before he could do that, the two Genocides had a baby that was reincarnated as a human to avoid Neoglitch's wrath. When Neoglitch found out, the Genocide Progeny found a way to give him amnesia, which eventually led to the two of them becoming best friends... until one day, Neoglitch remembered. The human was, in fact, two genocides in the flesh.
Eventually, outsiders took the quote out of context and now they think it's a typo.
It's why I like Flowey so much.
He's an experienced player who's done it all and has seen it all.
I also like how in the end after all that looping, he just gives up on everything and spends god knows how long in the ruins just chilling there.
...Until Frisk falls down.
0:20 i cant read i am an undertale fan
and ive got news for youu uuu
But you can type! That's a good thing! 👏 👏 👏
@@TasbolatTVI ain’t reading allat
@@TasbolatTVI ain’t reading allat
@@nspeghetti copycat
this video just made me realize i fell victim to part of undertale's writing flawlessly
i was talking with my friend about undertale, and they said they'd never done the genocide route
i responded with "damn, really? it's got some of the most fun gameplay in undertale."
and they said they didnt want to tarnish the memories they had with those characters
i basically just said "ah, that's funny. i've done it seven or eight times by now."
and they looked at me for a moment and i realized how insane i sounded
"the route where you kill everyone is the coolest one, i did it multiple times"
Frankly, it's quite more than that, but that is enough
This wonderful video reminded me how much I love the Growth Spurt AU and how it deals with Asriel’s trauma.
Came for the video, stayed for in stars and time~
SIFFRIN PFP, YIPPEE
I would say yippee but Xenoblade 3 ruined that word for me (curse you chain attacks)
Shayy should know what I mean, they’re a Xenoblade fan
I kinda love seeing how characters with time control change how they see their actions
Like, in Re:Zero, the mc (Subaru) 'loops' back in time when he gets killed.
He figures this out by slowly dying from being murdered, then suddenly opening his eyes to a few hours back
But it's how he'll save people..! So...
(Mild spoilers past the first episode)
At some point he begins to see his life as disposable, and will let himself die in "failed" loops to save everyone else. The author has even written IF routes, like one where he becomes so obssesed with perfection he loops back in time when he can't answer a question as small as "What will be the weather later?"
(End of spoilers)
Re Zero Spoilers
He’s been working on seeing his life as having more worth by Season 2 and yeah I see you referenced Greed IF.
My favourite IF route has to be Gluttony, which I personally think is the most tragic one despite ‘Subaru’ not dying there.
Re:Zero mentioned, beyond based. Also, to add to that (mild spoilers):
I find it extremely interesting that due to the nature of the time loops in Re:Zero's narrative, the entire plot more or less relies on the mc (my boy Subaru) to actually act
Like, a lot of time loops tend to follow a plot already, with the main character having to solve or at least tweak the time loop, but with the plot always being clear (i.e: defeat the king, everyone is trapped on the underground, etc)
But Subaru? The plot of the story depends solely on his actions alone, because his actions directly affect the world at large (via the butterfly effect). That's why all the IF routes are so overwhelmingly different from one another, because Subaru's actions vastly change the consequences of the plot on a fundamental level
Like, the plot of Greed IF, Sloth IF and Gluttony IF are all completely different from each other, if you were to give them genres, they'd all be completely different by default
In a way, Re:Zero is an amazing example of time loops in storytelling, because the time loop is the main drive that molds the story, having a plot that's specifically molded around the main character's actions, and not the other way around
This video immediately made me think about In Stars and Time from the moment I looked at it. I fucking love that game, it's my current hyperfixation
ME TOO
@@ivorywizard
Ivory, i keep seeing u everywhre!! Also uhm.. i just wanted to say ur cool!!! :33
@@ivorywizard OMG it's you!!
I'd love to see more essay style videos from you, they're delightful!
i loved this video! i think you hit the nail perfectly. flowey has always been one of my favourite undertale characters, so seeing a video that is both satisfying and gives people a better understanding of him is really cool. i would love to see more of this content, keep it up man 👍
when i saw the title of the video i was thinking of adding a comment suggesting In Stars and Time until you actually showed it lol
The thumbnail is absolutely incredible!
Shayy essay content talking about my favourite, most kinned character ever? Hell yeah.
"Now look at this segway into the next part of the video!"
Gives me an ad
Shayy talking about my favorite Undertale character (and one of my favorite video game villains overall) and a very awesome game I've gotten into almost a week ago = fantastic analysis video.
I likewise definitely recommend In Stars and Time! It's very charming and well-made.
Huh didn't expect such a video from Shayy
Shayy video essay, we are so fucking back.
i Knew that isat was going to be brought up because it Did truly make me understand further how flowey felt in the Timeloops and i even told my friend after streaming it to him that hey yeah this is very Flowey Undertale. not to mention just how much isat changed my life (for the better) it is my all time favorite game.
i got nothing much to say about this but i'll have you know youtube cut to an ad right after the pun at 5:22, even they thought it was bad
Same
Yeah, definitely a top tier Flowey-centric video essay if you ask me. Seriously, I love how well-put everything is here!
4:27 YESSSS In Stars And Time is AMAZING GO PLAY IT NOW!!!
YESSSS GO PLAY IT NOWWW
SO TRUE
@@ivorywizardDARN
I'M TOO SLOW
I loved this video, especially because it makes sure to acknowledge that not everybody does abuse the reset power with some only playing a single pacifist route and then stopping.
I know they aren't real and I even tried disconnecting myself by doing a genocide route first because I knew I would get attached to the characters, but I gave up because of a lack of skill and from that moment on I just did a single pacifist run and have left the ending as it was, not resetting or playing again. I know I can and there is no reason not to, but if I can't fully commit to it anyways, then I at least want to leave the characters in the best state I can.
I replayed true pacifist over and over, idk what that says about me…
Good video essay. 👍 If I had the saving and loading ability, I would probably mostly use it to undo trivial embarrassments and mistakes. I wouldn't want to constantly re-write things I've written and have conversations over again if I were to reset to a far point in the past.
would definitely love to see more video-essay style content in the future, I've really enjoyed it so far
Howdy! i'm WING GASTER!
WING GASTER the NO SHIT!
that's just mising a genocides to be absolute brainrot.
@@Abraham_the_pierra "howdy... i winged you're shits"
🫳🪨🪨🪨
Damn, your streams and videos about them are really great, but videos like these are just in another level man. Great work, hope to see more
WOOOO WAS SO EXCITED FOR THIS VIDEO ESPECIALLY FOR THE ISAT MENTION AND MUSIC AAHHHHHH
Really love the video essays your doing now! Honestly it’s starting to make me start noticing things a lot differently and making me have a whole new perspective and appreciation for undertale and it’s writing! ❤
The ISAT music at the start was an unexpected surprise but I didn’t think you’d actually mention the game itself!!
Love that game, I reward you (1) one carrot slice.
...chomp.
can i also have one (1) carrot slice?
@@ivorywizardno you can't
@@ivorywizard
no. you can have some delicious pancakes though. 🥞🥞
It really puts in perspective your role as speedrunner. Trying to see how fast you can snuff out every ounce of life without remorse. Awesome video, would love to see more like it.
A video about Flowey and Timeloops? Aww yeh you know I'll be here for this! I like these little video essay's Shay, i hope to see you make more sometime! :)
I love videos like these, it’s sort of like applying psychology and some philosophy principles to a game we all know and love. it’s a different take on a type of video that’s extremely common in the undertale community
shayy, this was a fantastic video. i would love more video essay type videos from you.
Love the video essay format, and the way you explained flowey's role in the game actually made sense, and character analysis for characters this complex can be really hard to do for a lot of people. Shayy video essay content is great, and it'd be cool to see one on deltarune if you're willing to do that. I skipped the In Stars and Time section because I haven't played it yet but it's cool that you included a reference to a generally unknown game like that. I'll have to play it as soon as I can.
Amazing! A Shayy video about what my fangame is all bout.
Shayy, you're feeding my hyper-fixation. I dont know how this video came out exactly when I was obsessing over ISAT but gods if this isn't serendipitous.
Soon
Thy shall outobsession me and even ivory
Oh boy i can't wait to watch this video again after finishing in stars and time!
Edit: i am half way into the game (it's really good and funny) and I think I siffrin is actually is going insane
So Shayy does video essays too now? I’m here for it ❤
Flowey is such a cool character. So I’m excited to learn more about this!
Shayy your thumbnails are so adorable 😭
the way flowey is such a relatable character freaks me out
Why does it freak you out tho
@@RemoveThisTrashLetMeSeeNames because he’s seen as such a vile character by a lot of people but really he’s just like us
@@tripleconsonant what's wrong with finding a vile character relatable?
@@RemoveThisTrashLetMeSeeNamessomething something people being humans for no reason
i clicked on this video and thought "reminds me of isat" then i absentmindedly scroll down and see the music credits. yeah.
EXACTLY
@@Theoriginalautismer7790 yeah!!
You should totally play In Stars and Time it’s an awesome timeloop game
Now I wanna hear shayy talk about ISAT for however long they can because I don't want to let go of ISAT just yet.
Flowey is my favorite Undertale character, glad to see this video from you Shayy!
YESSSS YESSSSSSSS YESSSSSSSSSSS
(i talk with spoilers for the whole game through this comment so beware)
.
my first thought of the big point of differentiation between siffrin and flowey is that siffrin isn't alone in the loops while flowey is. but it is true that the fact that they love their friends so much puts them through so much distress, to the point that he'll loop back whenever he scares them or makes them uncomfortable. there definitely ARE moments where sif loses his grip on it though, moments where he teeters on the brink of going flowey's way (that variant of the friendquested housemaiden cutscene where they just smile out of love, even as their friends' distress is replayed... in this moment you are loved etc) but he's just... human. too human to truly lose his way. the reason the loop even started in the first place is because he loved them too much to let them go. they just turn that suffering inward on themself (and a wee bit of violence toward the king, gotta love those two internal monologues) instead of putting others through it
(TWOHATS SPOILER)
.
.
and even loop, who was totally alone for everything, couldn't lose their footing either. loop visibly tries to be teasing about it and give this impression that they do not care for siffrin's suffering but it FAILS. MISERABLY. they are AGGRESSIVELY human. and it makes me SICK.
YEAH
9:52… you sly frog, you can’t hide among us from me
(Just the bottom left corner, I can barely spot it)
how did you spot that???
IN STARS AND TIME MENTIONED
In all seriousness, I put off watching this video because I was already completely familiar with Flowey, and had also played In Stars and Time, so I was IMMENSELY pleased to learn that game prompted this video's creation.
I'd argue both games share something thats both a distinction and a similarity with their timeloop explorations: Guiding/guessing the player's mindset. Undertale is very good at predicting the player's mindset, creating Flowey as an accurate image of what a repeat player will become and the steps that lead them there.
Meanwhile, ISAT focuses on a main character that is ENTIRELY separate from the player with no fourth wall anything, so it instead uses astonishingly good writing dialogue and monologue to bring the player in line with wherever Siffrin is at the time, and the way you puzzle out the game's events and follow its emotional crests and valleys will be in perfect sync with Siffrin's, achieveing a frankly insane level of immersion for a game that explicitly does not have a player vessel character.
My favourite TH-camr and my favourite Undertale character! Let’s go!!!!
Hey, thanks for recommending in stars and time, just played it and was amazing, more people should know about it
It’s been scientifically proven that the human mind will indeed do something again if it doesn’t have consequences in real life, so you can apply this video there as well.
actors on a stage? like a musical? like an ♪ UNDERTALE THE MUSICAL - Animation Song Parody?
What an amazing surprise to get on my birthday!!
happy birthday!!
That voice is so good for mini docs like this. nice vid, btw
The words Flowey and psychology in the same title means this video is gonna slap
The second I opened this video, I commented that you should play ISAT.
I then deleted that comment after I heard the ISAT OST playing in the background.
stopping the vid at 4:57 and going to play in stars and time, brb
same lmao
yes! join us join us join us
one of us, one of us
An Undertale essay? In 2024?? HYPE!!
Ironically, Flowey remembers your *Genocides* but only if you close out before Chara slashes ya
SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UPSHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP
human i remember your *Genocides*
The game doesn't expect you to stop doing geno after the New Home monologue because it makes subsequent runs make no sense, so Flowey keeps the same standard geno-abort dialogue. I wouldn't even consider it canon that you CAN stop, as goofy as that sounds.
damn I played In Stars and Time back when it had a demo in a Next Fest like 2 years ago now? And I thought it seemed great but the number of people who's opinions I respect giving it props both makes me happy and tells me I need to get around to playing it already.
One part of Flowey's story I don't really get - confinement in the underground has a clear endpoint just at the point where Frisk arrives, so how did Flowey get to the point where he was so bored that he had to see everything anyone would say under any circumstance? Surely just seeing what happens if he lets time play out naturally would be more interesting than rewinding an uncountable number of times?
Perhaps he didn't want to see the underground get more miserable as time went on? Its not that good of a point ik
@@maskedmanpkclysm5327 Yeah, that one's a hard sell because there's still plenty of joy as of the time Frisk arrives. Things are bleak, but there's still fun and joy readily findable
"letting things play out" would absolutely not be more interesting. Why would you wait a week to see if person A has something slightly different to say when you could reset and see what person B is talking about right now? Waiting around for stuff to happen would get super boring super quick when he has no actual purpose or life
@Cruxin But Flowey has to wait for the timeline to catch up to what he wants to test regardless. Waiting for one timeline to come to its conclusion would probably be _more_ dense with new interactions than testing specific things as Flowey thought to try them
@@sparky6757 theres no "it's conclusion". he doesnt know frisk is coming, as far as hes concerned he has a forever sandbox. and the undergound is stale, things arent changing, everybody is wallowing in dissatisfaction. people aren't moving anywhere in their lives and nobody is going to have anything different to say one day from the next. theres nothing to wait for. nothing for "the timeline to catch up to"
thanks to this video, i have now played In Stars And Time completely and entirely and i think i absolutely love it now
thank you kindly Shayy
BIG SPOILERS FOR IN STARS AND TIME
At 6:55 you mentioned that Siffrin loops back out of convenience or when something is uncomfortable. Later on you find out he is not doing this intentionally, and is a side-effect his wish. Since the wish was to "Stay with them", if those "uncomfortable" moments are enough to permanently damage his friendships (at least in his book), his wish craft automatically loops him back. Other than that, he can only loop back through death.
Really, really good analysis of one of the best pieces of writing in undertale (even if i had to skip the isat section because i am avoiding spoilers for that game like the plague)