I had both coaches argue with me as an umpire when I didn’t call a batter out after a dropped 3rd strike with a runner on first BUT with 2 out and it was the end of the game. The batting team ended up winning because the fielding team got confused and a runner on second managed to run the whole way around and score when it should have gone to extras
Was the batter safe on first after the dropped third strike? If he was thrown out at first the runner from second score would not count even if he scored before the out at first!
Sounds like you made the correct call according to the NFHS Rules, regardless of what the "Coaches" may have said... Half the time even they don't know what the little intrinsic values and semantics really mean!
On that final clip, it first appears as though the batter thought he fouled it off. I slowed it down to .25, the slowest I can here, and it actually looks like it hits the batter as he's swinging, which means strikeout and dead ball, inning over. But this is the problem with quiet umpires and loud parents at little league games. The inning was over, but no one except the home plate umpire knew it because he didn't communicate it very well.
The last one should have been an emphatic "DEAD BALL" verbalization since it hit the batter in the right shoulder, followed by a loud call that the batter swung and is out on the third strike. The dead ball call kills all further play immediately. Calling the swing and third strike first results in the play continuing and the umpire having to unsnarl a mess he created on his own. One of the things I was taught early on was to hold my strike\ball call for a split second to allow for situations where I would need to kill the ball first. I was taught how to do this by a veteran umpire with whom I was watching another umpire work behind the plate. He had me close my eyes and listen for the pitch hitting the catcher's glove and how the strike\ball call came from the umpire with no delay whatsoever. Even waiting one heartbeat before verbalizing the call can make a world of difference.
The ball is not dead. It was never alive. But as umpires we do say "TIME" when a batter is hit by a pitch, and any time a thrown ball leaves the playing area. "Dead ball" is not a term umpires use.
@@matthewspringer3984 Maybe where you are, but not where I'm from. Perhaps you should look at OBR rule 5.06(c). It specifically says "Dead Ball". A time out is a dead ball, a hit batsman is a dead ball, a ball thrown out of play is a dead ball, a foul ball is a dead ball. A pitch is a live ball until it becomes a dead ball by either hitting a batsman, is hit foul, or is a fair ball that leaves the playing area. Read a rule book before you sound and dumber.
@@matthewspringer3984 If the ball is “live” the flip-side to that is “dead.” A dead ball example would be foul tip that hits any object in foul territory or a pitch that gets caught in either the catcher’s or umpire’s face mask.
Yep.... a 20+ year Ump was my first teacher/mentor as an Ump. "Take a breath... THEN make the call'. Keeps you from making a lot of 'ah... he dropped it just before the tag' or 'he's bobbling the ball when the runner touches first' type of mistakes.
As a coach myself, it's simple... The only problem I ever have is umpires that don't read and understand the freaking rule book! A few years ago I got 3 different interpretations of this rule from 3 different umpires... So as annoying as it may be I just had my girls run towards first on a dropped 3rd no matter the number of outs and no matter if first is occupied... That way the umpire has to make a quick verbal decision if she's out lol ..
That last clip is only asking for an upset coach. The only thing I've seen more confusing is a check swing uncaught 3rd strike as the batter stood there adamant that he didn't go. Resulting in a coach getting tossed. Dramatic mechanics matter when is gets confusing.
The batter didn't get tossed?! Wow. As an Umpire if a player doesn't do exactly what I tell them when I tell them they're gone. No exceptions. Coach/Manager complains... he's gone to.
Didn't know about the 2 out thing. This is my 1st year coaching with this rule and all but one of my kids same thing. Getting them to understand it isn't easy. Getting the high school kids that umpire isn't either lol. Wish me luck lol. I love your videos. God bless
@@db336 we went 9-15 and didn't lose one game by more then 3 runs!! We did win the end of the season tournament though that was cool. It was a weird season we play the same 4 teams over and over (at the same park) yet we were away 18 games?? The Pres & vice pres are coaches of two of the other teams and they both had 6 players each "before" we picked but errors got us in every loss I just didn't have the talent lol. I was done after the season. Me and my son decided not to do all stars this year. I was elected to coach the AS but we were ready to have some time off. My boy played football, fall ball, basketball and then spring baseball so if he didn't want to play all stars im not gonna force him. He works hard!! Im proud of him😌 best regards
@@rickrhodes1110 Nothing unusual in your description of how little league Pres, and VP, manipulate drafts. I had a team I agreed to take at the last minute since they had no coaches who would take the team. The "best" team in our league had all the top players on it. This is in-house baseball. The "best" team was coached by a moron who knew very little about baseball. Our boys worked hard and mastered the basic skills and strategy of the game, at their level, and were ready for the season. We played the "best" team our second game. We beat them and embarrassed them. Their best player, a good kid with a good attitude, came to the plate and hit a home run his first at bat. You would have thought the parents had just won the World Series the way they were laughing and carrying on. From that point forward we signaled the catcher the location of the pitch. We worked the ball outside until he moved in. Then the catcher would move back outside again. He chased pitches never getting a chance to hit an easy pitch again, that is, as well as you can move the ball with young players. We made sure the catcher and pitcher understood how important it is to work the plate. Not necessarily throwing strikes. That boy never hit a home run off of our team again and a only had a few weak hits after this when they played out team. That coach was furious that we beat them and spoiled the perfect season he was bragging to everyone "he" was going to have. A few other us who were coaching meet with the President and told her we knew what she and that coach did to stack the team and didn't appreciate it. He walked up and started arguing with everyone. He threatened to fight me (he was with one of the low-level wrestling organizations that travel the region putting on professional wrestling matches) and everyone else there. I asked him where the batting Ts were and he told us he gave them away to T-ball league because these kids were too old to use batting Ts, if that gives you an idea how little he knew.
The last play,,,, the umpire signalled a strike but I didn't beat him say strike three. When I was behind the plate , I would signal and he'll strike three but never say , " Batters Out" even if first was unoccupied ! If the ump says batters out and catcher did drop ball or it bounced then your screwed. It can also sound like your coaching the catcher! This ump did plenty, the rest is up to the coaches! They seen him swing they need to tell him what to do not the ump!! Our players had to take off hard to first on every stoped third strike regardless. Aggressive base running can create errors! Besides it was good exercise for them! Good day!
AND I was also taught to help my Plate partner by indicating whether the 3rd strike was caught (by holding up a Fist if the pitch was legally caught (with my right hand) or an open hand if the pitch was NOT caught. So all my Partner needs to do is glance at me do make his determination.
Although rare, it’s possible for the ball to bounce in front of plate, the batter swings and tips the ball and the catcher catches it cleanly. This is not an uncaught third strike because it fulfilled the definition of a foul tip - a ball that hits the bat and goes sharply into the catcher’s mitt. Also, it’s also important to know WHEN the batter is out if there was an uncaught third strike, the batter starts for his dugout (thinking he is out) and the defense makes no play on him. Rule sets differ on this. For instance, can a batter head for the 3rd base dugout and, just prior to entering the dugout, take off for 1st by running in a straight line from the dugout to 1st, crossing in front of the pitcher’s mound? In OBR - no. In high school - yes.
do you have a rule cite for that last one? I'm pretty sure the batter-runner is out for abandonment if he leaves the dirt circle (or where the dirt circle should be) while showing no intent to advance, in both rulesets... but if you have a rule cite or caseplay saying it's different for NFHS I'll be glad to learn.
@@davej3781 I'm not sure what you're looking for. In OBR, it explicitly says when the batter is out on an uncaught third strike. Rule 5.05(a)(2) Comment: "A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be declared out once he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate." For NFHS, there is no language as above. In fact, there are case plays that specifically permit the batter-runner to advance to 1st on an uncaught third strike provided the batter-runner does not first enter dead ball territory (i.e. dugout).
@@davej3781 There are NFHS case plays that specifically address this issue - but I hate paging through the case book to find things. It's not very user friendly. You really don't need the case book, though. Straight from the rule book ... NFHS 8-4-1(i) "The batter-runner is out when on a dropped third strike, he gives up by entering the bench or dugout area, or with two outs he does not attempt to reach first base before all the infielders leave the diamond at the end of the half-inning." The OBR and NFHS rule used to be the same, but OBR changed it, mostly as a result of this controversial play (link below). The batter starts to walk away and then changes his mind and runs to first. That ended up being the winning run in a post-season game. www.mlb.com/video/a-j-takes-first-c20254775 EDIT: I found the relevant case play in the 2022 NFHS case play book. 7.4.1 SITUATION A (p.65) "With R1 on first, B2 has two strikes and swings at the next pitch. F2 drops the ball and fails to throw to F3 at first. There are (a) no outs or (b) two outs. *RULING:* In (a), B2 is out because first base was occupied. In (b), B2 is safe at first if he reaches first before the half-inning ends or before all infielders leave the diamond. He is out if he gives up by entering the bench or dugout area."
@@DavidEmerling79 great, many thanks for the rule cite and matching case play; now if it happens this season I won't make the wrong ruling. regarding the OBR rule change, it doesn't seem like the "AJ Takes First" play would change in any way with either rule - either way he never left the dirt circle. however it does illustrate why I don't make a strike indication at all on an uncaught 3rd strike - I go directly to a big "safe" mechanic and hold it while opening the gate for F2
That was always my biggest gripe with umpires, particularly in youth baseball. Everything seemed to be a secret and nobody knew what was going on. Few umpires used their voice. The vast majority of the "arguments" with coaches and players was not about the merit of the call ... it was that nobody could ever tell what the call was. And that's exactly what happened in that last clip -- the frustration and confusion wasn't because of the call ... it was because nobody knew what the call was.
The reason for the dropped third strike rule is that, in baseball, a ball needs to be caught on a fly for the out to be automatic. If a batted ball is caught on a fly, the batter is out. Otherwise the batter-runner must be tagged out or be thrown out at first base. The same logic applies to a third strike. If the catcher cleanly catches the third strike, the batter is out. Otherwise, he must be tagged or thrown out at first.
I believe you that that's the reasoning, but it doesn't make sense in my brain. I understand if it's foul tipped that the catcher has to catch it for it to be an out. But if the batter doesn't even make contact with the ball, why apply the same logic? Asking MLB that question, not necessarily you.
The reason for the dropped third strike is,,,, the double play! Same as the IFR. Infield fly rule. One out, runner on first,,,, dropped third strike,, catcher throws to second for the force,, then to first. Double play!! There you have it! Your welcome!
@@stevehamman4465 No, that's the reason why the catcher does NOT have to tag the batter-runner or throw to first if there's a runner on first with fewer than two outs. The reason why, in all other situations the batter is not automatically out on a dropped third strike, is what I said.
@@vincesmith2499 your confusing the interpretation of the rule , with , the REASON for the rule!! The reason is ,, having a catcher drop it on purpose, and turning a double play! It's the first base is unoccupied, batter is out part that your missing. The question was WHY is there a droped third strike rule! Again, it's to protect the offense! Just like the infield fly rule!
@@stevehamman4465 No. You're confusing the rule with the exception to the rule when there is a runner at first with less than two outs. I'm talking about why the batter is NOT out on a dropped third strike; you're referring to the situation where he IS out. Apples and oranges.
4:55 - Could have easily tuned into another problem. Batter/Runner #21 clearly moves from foul territory to well inside the base path and on to the grass. There was a clear throw and catch for an out but had it not the umpire would/should make the call of Runner Lane Interference
You are correct, and with other runners on base, this would be a dumb move by the batter/runner. But with no one on base and you are an easy out, running like he does here might cause a bad throw. That's not going to be interference. It's only interference if the runner interference with the player at first *receiving* the throw...so bad throws such as 3 feet over the head of the first baseman would not constitute Runner Lane Interference. It's a smart move...
@@MJHBaseball in NFHS rules you don't have to have a quality throw to get RLI. The catcher can throw it 10 ft over 1st baseman's head, it is still RLI. Get the out.
@@guiwhiz NFHS rules don't make the distinction that the ball be catchable. Any throw to first base from the vicinity of home plate to retire a runner who is outside the running lane creates legitimate grounds for judging running lane interference.
It's also easy to remember when you consider that the catcher can always drop the pitch, or the pitcher can always throw it down in the dirt. Thus, with a runner on first, you take away the force, and the cheap double play by calling the batter out. Once two are out, then the cheap double play isn't an option any more, so you give the offense its choice of what out it wants to go for.
@@justinburgan4184 Sure, but this is a rule that allows the batter to advance even when struck out which adds some excitement to the game, and punishes the catcher for dropping the ball. The thing is to make sure the catcher cannot take advantage of the rule by dropping the ball and creating a force.
@@craigdupree1687 yeah I guess. And it does stop the pitchers from throwing extreme junk when they know a hitter is swinging at almost anything. Keeps the game exciting.
With less than 2 outs, and 1st is UNoccupied, the batter may advance and a throw to first would be required (or tag him before he gets too far away). Any runner at any base may advance at their own risk. If 1st base is occupied, dropped third is the out on the batter. Runners may advance at their own risk. If there are 2 outs, a dropped third requires a throw or tag for the final out. If the bases are loaded all runners should be advancing (like a ground ball) and the catcher can step on home plate for the out.
All correct as the rule is fairly simple as long as you know it. You didn't touch on it here but one of the videos showed it: if the runner begins the pitch on first with fewer than two outs, the batter is out, even if the runner happens to steal and is on second or in-between first and second by the time of the dropped third strike.
Right... the point is the runner does not HAVE to run. When I Ump the younger kids (whose coaches/managers are also usually pretty green) I will tell both teams that the dropped 3rd strike does NOT apply on this pitch. Much better than having to sort of the mess when the batter goes mistakenly and then the kid on 1st panicks and runs improperly. After all we're trying to get these kids to both know and love the game not punish them for ignorance.
The second example is funny because the catcher tagged the batter/runner, as he should have, but with an empty glove while holding the ball in his other hand. Ump signaled out anyway.
For umpire mechanics, in situations where the batter cannot advance, the plate umpire should indeed signal the batter is out. In situations where the batter CAN advance the plate umpire should come up loudly and say, "No catch! No catch!" and give a safe signal. I actually prefer to just give the safe signal with my right arm and hand so it differentiates from a standard safe signal. Field umpires...if you have a caught third strike hold a fist down at your side so, the plate umpire can see. If you have an uncaught third strike, hold your hand open with fingers spread again, so the plate umpire can see that. Plate umpires should also be using your ears on these calls and ask F2 to show you the baseball so you can confirm a secure catch.
the play you presented as the 3rd one in the quiz section is not the same play as you presented as the 3rd one in the answer/explanation section (3:05 - PU in red, no outs, runner on 3rd; that one didn't appear at all in the quiz section)
I really love this rule it ! makes a lot of sense actually considering what if the guy threw a wild ball like a knuckle and forced a strike? Knowing that there is no such rule they would just throw random balls at the third strike making a catcher useless hahahaha
Question - on the second example, the nighttime game, was the batter legally tagged? The catcher touched him with his glove with the ball in his ungloved hand; I don't think this is a tag under LL rules. I note the plate umpire makes no indication of out and suspect that if the clip was longer, he'd wait until the batter entered dead ball territory before indicating out.
It does appear that way, but the ball was actually in the glove and transferred after the tag. I think the catcher should look into slight of hand magic...
There are several rule books. Little League (most closely matches MLB), NFHS (High School which has a lot of differences), NCAA - College and OBR or MLB which is professional.
They are all the same. Most of the videos on this channel are either Little League or High School specific. But for uncaught 3rd strike, they are all identical.
A scenario worthy of discussion: When 1B is occupied with less than two outs and the batter runs anyway, if the catcher throws and the ball hits the retired batter it will cause a loose, live ball. If runner(s) advance as a result, would this be interference on the retired batter with the runner closest to home being declared out? 🤔
I could swear I answered this already... the short version is that the defense is expected to know the situation and the rules, but you might have something if you think the offense is doing it on purpose in order to confuse the defense
Just had this one...batter out I called (1st base occupied, less than two out)but batter ran anyway, and catcher threw anyway, during which runners on first and second took off to next bases...I called time out, dead ball, sent the runners back, explained the occupied base rule...everyone okay, but I was wrong...I think...the runner going to first didnt know the occupied rule, or the catcher...this JV softball...but if they had, it's a quandary, a deac by the runner?...decoying is a kinda "interference"...fake tag comes to mind, but then hidden ball trick...oh...anyway, I think the dropped ball remains live even though runner is automatically out...outs dont end plays, dead ball things...runners could have taken next base...🤔
Heres an interesting one I saw thats very rare. Uncaught 3rd strike on a missed bunt attempt. Fair or not the batter can run on that provided 1st base isnt occupied or 2 outs.
Why do you add "fair or not" if it's a missed bunt attempt lol? If he missed, he still swung and can run to first. But if he missed, the ball was never put in play to be ruled fair or foul just an uncaught third strike.
@@chrisgibson2779 well yes missed is missed, but if foul (aka not as bad an attempt as a complete miss) then its a strike out with no concern for whether it would have been caught or not. But its kind of along the lines of dropped 3rd strike in general. The worse the pitch you attempt at the better your chances at reaching first which seems unjust from a sporting perspective. Starting to feel that rule should be changed.
Actually depends on the 'bunt attempt'. A batter must make a reasonable attempt at the ball or not swing at all. Trying to 'square up' to a pitch that isn't going anywhere near the plate to try and artificially generate a '3rd strike' isn't legit.
@@guiwhiz yeah but no one would ever do that with 2 strikes it would be much easier and make much more sense to swing at the type pitch you are talking about in order to “steal first”. The point i was making was more about on an attempted bunt with 2 strikes a foul ball is an out but if you attempt a bunt and miss the ball completely and the ball is uncaught by the catcher you can try to take first if the base situation allows it. That actually happened to a team I was part of. Kind of a crazy thing that youd almost never see. Bunting with 2 strikes alone is pretty rare. Then you have to have the correct situation on the bases/outs, and an uncaught ball on something they would make an attempt at.
There is no point. It's another stupid rule (along with balks and The Infield Fly Rule) that Baseball will never change because it's too set in its ways.
Personally, I'm a little confused because in that last situation, it appeared to me that the batter FOULED the ball off, which makes it a DEAD BALL because the catcher didn't catch it, and nothing can legally happen in a dead ball status...and the pitch should not have counted as strike three.
You personally prefer the safe signal? But that isn't the PROPER signal. A dropped third strike signal is right arm ONLY extended out. For a good reason. No one is "safe" in that situation until the batter reaches 1st base before getting tagged or the throw is caught by the first baseman on the bag.
The point to the right is indicating it's a strike. The safe signal is typically only given if the catcher attempts a tag and misses. So holding the pointed hand out, but not giving the "out" signal, lets every one know it's a strike but not an out. For younger levels, I think making a "safe" mechanic can help. Even verbalizing, "you got to get him" is not bad. Or, if the batter is out, verbalizing, "he's out, he's out" can be useful.
Different umps have different biases on that. I have had assignors say no box, no call. Others say if obvious make the call. So I will assume the assigning secretary says if obvious make the call. And in video it looks obvious. (A coach has the right to as for new box to be drawn but I have never had that happen.
OK - not mentioned in the video - What about an uncaught third strike situation with a full count? Batter doesn't swing. Catcher has nothing to lose by dropping the ball (even on purpose) to try to get the force out in the force out situation when the correct call is ball four and a free pass to first. Batter appears out at first, and also looks like he agrees that the pitch was in fact a strike because the batter ran. Umpire needs to overrule everybody and declare the runner safe on the walk.
What about if the runner on first base steals, then the catcher misses the 3rd strike...assuming less than 2 outs. Does he have to throw to first as the base is now unoccupied?
At 3:03 catcher in blue uniform tagged the batter with his glove on his left hand, but the ball was in his right hand. Umpire called the batter out though.
I was taught that for it to be an uncaught 3rd strike, the pitch has to at least be "hittable". Supposedly this is to prevent a batter's taking advantage of an obviously wild pitch by swinging at it to convert it into a 3rd strike. Is this one not in the books?
Not that I am aware of. HOWEVER, for it to be a strike, the batter needs to "offer at the pitch" and you can't very well offer at an unhittable pitch. Like a pitch that is 20 feet from the home plate because it slips out of the pitchers hand. But if the umpire calls it a strike, then it's can be a dropped 3rd.
definitely no such condition; if the umpire rules a strike, and it's not legally caught by the catcher, then by rule it is an uncaught 3rd strike and the batter-runner may advance in practice, most umpires avoid calling a 3rd strike if the catcher does not catch it (not a swinging strike, but a strike called on the pitch location)... while in most cases pitches the catcher does not catch won't be called strikes anyway, sometimes the umpire will give him one but it will almost never be in an uncaught 3rd situation. the exception would be the pitch straight down the middle, 100% no doubt strike that center punches the glove and pops out... it'd be hard not to call that a strike, even if it's an uncaught 3rd.
@@MJHBaseball What if the batter squared the bat over the plate to bunt, and then held it there and watched the ball as it sailed far over the catcher's head? By being mesmerized and forgetting to pull the bat back, has the batter offered at the pitch, or is this a case of, "You can't attempt the impossible"? Suppose the ball slips out of the pitcher's hand and produces a bloop that looks like it will eventually be a hittable pitch -- but the batter, realizing that, swings as the ball's still rising in its arc so he can take off early for 1st base. Is he allowed to "offer at the pitch" impossibly early?
@@goodmaro regarding the bunt scenario you describe, holding the bat out is not offering at the pitch. the idea that the batter has to pull the bat back to avoid a strike call is another persistent baseball myth.
@@goodmaro Up to the Umpire's judgement. In the drop 3rd situation the two things I look for is 'did the pitch get to the catcher in the air where a reasonable attempt by the catcher could result in a catch?'; 'did the batter stay within the field of play before attempting to run?' The 2nd one because I've seen batters head back to the dugout and their Coach screamed at the them to run. Well that's too late coach. He left the running lanes so he/she is out either way.
5:53 - If the batter swings and still gets hit by the pitch - it is a dead ball and strike? And not take the base? Is that the same if they get hit at the hands/wrist even with a swing on the pitch? (or only if a check swing?)
Lots of confusion and aggravation could be avoided if we would all use the term uncaught third strike rather than dropped. Especially at the lower levels, many of these are not dropped. They simply don't reach the catcher.
We had a call last night that was curious the ball skipped off the ground and the catcher caught it and the runner was ruled out as it was “cleanly caught” despite bouncing off the ground. Is that a thing?
To help people understand why the pitch bouncing into the catcher is "uncaught".... it's the same reason a hard hit liner bounces right before the short stop catches it. He doesn't drop it...he catches it cleanly...so why does HE still have to throw to first to get the force out there? Why isn't that considered an out? Same exact principle applies to the catcher on the 3rd strike. In general language people call it a "dropped 3rd strike" which is misleading. The rulebook says, "Is not caught" or "uncaught 3rd strike."
Stopping @ 2:24 - my predictions 1 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first 2 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first 3 - No, strikeout, 1st base is occupied 4 - No, strikeout, 1st base is occupied 5 - Yes, 1st base is occupied but with two outs, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first 6 - Yes, 1st base is occupied but with two outs, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first 7 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first 8 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first 9 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first 10 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first
@@jwall62 he called the ball dead and then gave the out signal. But then he could have told both the catcher and the batter that play was dead and the batter was out instead of just kinda standing there while everyone was confused.
@@mastod0n1looks like he’s explaining it to the catcher. The catcher only threw it to first because all the parents started screaming to throw it He also signaled dead ball, and signaled out multiple times before the runner ever took off for first
so wait,,,,, ball hits the ground and batter swings and misses. the ball again hits the ground and directy into glove. is not a dropped 3rd strike ? now what does the catcher have to do ?
You'll need to post a time stamp of which one you are talking about. if the ball hits the dirt before the catcher fields it, it is NOT a caught pitch. However, if there are less than 2 outs and a runner is on 1st, then the batter on strike 3 is out anyway without having to tag him or throw him out.
I'm confused at 3:45- No outs and 1st base is occupied- Umpire signals out and then points to first and play keeps going. Is this an example of the officials getting it wrong? Or am I missing something.
You saying the last umpire wasn't loud or dramatic enough? It sounds like the umpire yells, "Foul!", when it doesn't look like the bat made contact at all. No wonder everyone was confused.
I also thought he said foul, and I’m 100% positive he signaled it. Really doesn’t matter about if the bat contacted the ball or not once he’s made that call because now it’s foul. His partner in the field could have helped a ton if he had echoed his call.
my answers to test: 1-yes; 2-yes; 3-no; 4-no; 5-yes; 6-yes; 7-yes; 8-yes; 9-no, because of interference; 10-no, batter was hbp which he swung at, this is a dead ball strike
@@joegosselin2888 Ummmm.... what? No league I'm aware of has a 3rd strike rule EXCEPT with 2 outs or empty bases. Otherwise, the catcher would just intentionally drop the ball to get the force at 2nd and double-play at 1st.
3:05 no the runner at third absolutely should not have tried to score. there are no outs with a runner in potential sacrifice situation. Yes he should take a couple steps off the bag to get the catchers attention and increase chance of throwing error, but in no way should the runner ever try to score. Sorry dont mean to be rude but just wanted to point that out.
Well I don't know about 'ever', but you're right except in some pretty esoteric 'edge' situations the runner at third just needs to get the catcher's attention.
What about “abandonment” or giving yourself up. I know refs have called kids out if they turn towards their dugout but what about standing in the box or backing out of the box (not towards 1st base). Are there any provisions that cover this situation?
i suppose I should add that NFHS isn't "most rulesets" in this case; an NFHS batter-runner isn't out for abandonment until he enters the dugout or if it's the 3rd out and the defense leaves the infield
@@ryankey4980 Not accurate. The moment a potential runner leaves the running lane or the batter's box... he/she is out. You can't 'fake it' by getting one step from the dugout and then taking off towards first.
IMO, If a pitcher throws a ball that bounces and is caught on the bounce (cleanly) by the catcher and said swing occurred on third strike, jog your ass back to the dugout, because you don't deserve 1B after swinging at that pitch!
The narrator incorrectly describes Clip #3. He says that in the first three clips the catcher clearly dropped the ball, but that in the 3rd clip first base was not occupied. However, in Clip #3, the bases were loaded, which means ALL bases (including first) were occupied - so in #1 and #2, since the base was not occupied, the batter is not out until the catcher throws to first. In Clip #3, there are no outs with bases loaded, so the batter is out. 1 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base. 2 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base. 3 - Batter is out; catcher doesn’t have to throw to first base (first base WAS occupied!!) 4 - Batter is out; catcher doesn’t have to throw to first base 5 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base. 6 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base. 7 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base. 8 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base. 9 - batter is out. Ball is considered a catch (batter’s backswing dislodged it from the glove) 10 - batter is out on swinging strike - being hit by pitch after the strikeout is a dead ball, and he is out regardless
I don't get this rule. If the batter swings and misses on strike 3 then he is out. Period. It doesn't matter if the catcher catches it, how many outs there are or who's on first. KISS.
So I understand the rule, but I don't understand why it is a rule? If the batter swings on the second strike and misses, that is strike three and he's out, why would it ever be, "unless this happens."? Rules exist so that players can not exploit certain situations, what is this rule preventing from happening?
the defense needs to control the ball to record an out. this is actually one of the oldest rules in baseball, it pre-dates called strikes and caught fly balls
@@davej3781 The age of the rule doesn't give it any extra credibility, you used to be able to catch the ball of the bounce for an out, pitchers throw underhand also where you wanted it, and even ground rule doubles were home runs.. I just don't see how in todays day and age this nonsensical rule still exists. Why is it even considered a strike at all if the catcher drops it on the first or second strike? Then if the catcher does drop the ball on the third strike and this rule applies why do they then get to just run to base as if they hit it?
@@MaxRankFirestorm as I already explained, the defense is expected to control the ball in order to record an out. Not being able to advance when 1st base is occupied with less than 2 out is the exception rather than the norm, because that would otherwise allow the defense to make a trick double-play; the offense surrenders the out in that case for their own protection
@@davej3781 Well your explanation does not constitute the need for the rule or defend its existence, and you need to define control, because no matter how you define it, you get left with a double standard that only applies to the 2nd strike when there is no runner on first or two outs. Because if the Catcher drops the ball then he still has more control of it than if it whizzed past him allowing for the easy throw out at first. A catcher dropping a strike should not reverse time and make the strike into a base hit. The rule is out dated and serves no purpose in the current state of the game. It was a bad rule to begin with that was so bad they had to create a rule inside of that rule to stop trick double plays like you mentioned. If they removed the rule tomorrow the game will only benefit at every stage of competition from little leagues up through pro (softball included).
Close...but you forgot if there are 2 outs, then even if 1st base is occupied, the catcher will need to tag the runner out or throw to get the out at 1st.
Pretty rare a swinging batter doesn't get some part of his body into the strike zone... which belongs to the pitcher. He CAN hit you in the zone and many batters 'torque' brings their torso into the zone; which is exactly what happened on that play. The batter got tagged on his back shoulder. Now if the batter 'interferes' with the ball in the zone the catcher is not obligated to catch it in the air. No dropped 3rd.
What's the point of the rule? If you strike out you should be out period. Runners should still be able to advance, but the batter failed the at-bat. Back to the dugout with you.
@@davej3781 That doesn't make any sense. If the batter couldn't even get the bat on the ball, why should it matter how the catcher handles the ball? 3 strikes and you're out--Right?
@@mylesmarkson1686 makes perfect sense to me. in baseball the defense controls the ball, and uses the ball to prevent the offense from advancing and to record outs. the defense cannot put a batter or runner out without controlling the ball. the offense attempts to legally disrupt the defense's control of the ball, and in so doing advance bases and avoid being put out. there are a few instances where the offense commits an illegal act and is out automatically (interference, runners passing on the base path), but in all other cases the defense has to control the ball and put the offense out. if the pitcher pitches so wildly that the catcher does not field the ball, and such pitch is the 3rd strike, the defense has failed to control the ball and record the out
@@davej3781 Thanks Dave, but not one word you said makes any sense. Three chances to hit a ball and get on base is plenty--You don't need a fourth. And if a batter is so dumb to swing a wild pitch, and it's strike-3, he deserves to be out. An if you're so concerned about the defense controlling the ball--Don't worry--Even if it gets past the catcher, he can waddle back there and get it, and whaddya know? The ball is back in control again!
Looks like on the last batter that the umpire called a swinging strikeout ball is dead because it hit the batter. Then for some reason got caught up in the moment and called him out again on the throw down. My guess is the umpire explained to the 3rd base coach that he was already out and the throw down was not needed and he didn't mean to call him out twice. A semi screwup by the umpire but they are trying. I wouldn't have been mad at that as a coach.
no, he's just re-iterating again, for the 12th time, that the batter is out, he's not calling him out again by any mistake. his basic mistake was not calling time clearly (he did sort of vaguely kind of call time a little bit if you squint) when the batter was touched by the pitched ball, plus his poor mechanics and voice usage.
That last one at the very very end of the video looked to me like you should have been called as a foul ball. You can clearly tell the batter got a piece of it and so wasn't strike 3 or a caught out at home.
Good strategy until you have bases loaded 1 out and a speed demon on 3rd steals home when your catcher threw to first on a dropped 3rd strike when he didn’t have to,
You get this one every weekend the coaches in travel ball who don't understand with less than two outs first base is occupied the batteries out I just had a coach cry for three innings what do you say someone who is that clueless on baseball rules and shouldn't be on the field the old adage you can't argue with an idiot comes to mind. The same coach will sitting on a bucket front of his Dugout told me a homerun that was clearly fair was foul and you have to pause the throw to the bases when the pitcher is in the stretch. What's amazing is I've been umpiring for 40 years and these guys show up every weekend complaining about the umpires and not having a clue what the hell they're doing coaching a baseball team absolutely comical meanwhile we do nothing right our pitching mechanics are ridiculous we have no hitting mechanics we also can't pick a ball up catch a fly ball or throw correctly but I'm going to critique the umpiring😂😂😂
the reason umpires no longer use the safe sign on these uncaught third strikes is that if there is a tag attempt close to the plate, it could appear as if the umpire is saying no tag. Plus, it looks funny if he signals safe no catch and then out on the tag in quick succession. Also, you should add bases loaded, 2 outs to this. batter becomes a runner so all runners are forced so a step on home plate (or any base) is all that is needed.
The proper mechanic, for little league, is to call the strike (for baseball point to the right with your right hand) and then the signal varies according to the continuing action. If it's obviously not caught and no tag, just signal safe, no verbal call. If it's almost caught (not obviously dropped) and no tag is made, signal safe and verbally call "no catch!" If there's a failed tag attempt, signal safe and verbally call "no tag!" If there's a tag, point to the tag and then simultaneously signal and verbally call "tag, out!" The situation you're talking about where the safe signal is quickly followed by an out signal is actually because of poor umpire timing. We've all done it after working so many games, but technically it shouldn't ever happen if we follow the mechanic. Other organizations don't necessarily have such a detailed mechanic, only requiring that the umpire somehow signal that the pitch wasn't caught. Little League University has a great series of videos on this mechanic as well.
what do you mean umpires no longer use the safe sign on uncaught 3rd strikes? I do, all the guys I work with do; the only guys I see do anything different are older guys trained a long time ago, or guys who do more softball than baseball. maybe this is yet another thing that varies by region
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I had both coaches argue with me as an umpire when I didn’t call a batter out after a dropped 3rd strike with a runner on first BUT with 2 out and it was the end of the game. The batting team ended up winning because the fielding team got confused and a runner on second managed to run the whole way around and score when it should have gone to extras
Was the batter safe on first after the dropped third strike? If he was thrown out at first the runner from second score would not count even if he scored before the out at first!
@@stevehamman4465 yes, safe at first
Sounds like you made the correct call according to the NFHS Rules, regardless of what the "Coaches" may have said... Half the time even they don't know what the little intrinsic values and semantics really mean!
On that final clip, it first appears as though the batter thought he fouled it off. I slowed it down to .25, the slowest I can here, and it actually looks like it hits the batter as he's swinging, which means strikeout and dead ball, inning over.
But this is the problem with quiet umpires and loud parents at little league games. The inning was over, but no one except the home plate umpire knew it because he didn't communicate it very well.
Great explanation of this rule and the many variances that can occur in this situation.
The last one should have been an emphatic "DEAD BALL" verbalization since it hit the batter in the right shoulder, followed by a loud call that the batter swung and is out on the third strike. The dead ball call kills all further play immediately. Calling the swing and third strike first results in the play continuing and the umpire having to unsnarl a mess he created on his own.
One of the things I was taught early on was to hold my strike\ball call for a split second to allow for situations where I would need to kill the ball first. I was taught how to do this by a veteran umpire with whom I was watching another umpire work behind the plate. He had me close my eyes and listen for the pitch hitting the catcher's glove and how the strike\ball call came from the umpire with no delay whatsoever. Even waiting one heartbeat before verbalizing the call can make a world of difference.
The ball is not dead. It was never alive. But as umpires we do say "TIME" when a batter is hit by a pitch, and any time a thrown ball leaves the playing area. "Dead ball" is not a term umpires use.
@@matthewspringer3984 Maybe where you are, but not where I'm from. Perhaps you should look at OBR rule 5.06(c). It specifically says "Dead Ball". A time out is a dead ball, a hit batsman is a dead ball, a ball thrown out of play is a dead ball, a foul ball is a dead ball. A pitch is a live ball until it becomes a dead ball by either hitting a batsman, is hit foul, or is a fair ball that leaves the playing area. Read a rule book before you sound and dumber.
@@garygemmell3488 I guess all the umpire schools are wrong and you're right, then.
@@matthewspringer3984 If the ball is “live” the flip-side to that is “dead.” A dead ball example would be foul tip that hits any object in foul territory or a pitch that gets caught in either the catcher’s or umpire’s face mask.
Yep.... a 20+ year Ump was my first teacher/mentor as an Ump. "Take a breath... THEN make the call'. Keeps you from making a lot of 'ah... he dropped it just before the tag' or 'he's bobbling the ball when the runner touches first' type of mistakes.
I really don't see how it is so hard for coaches, it's pretty self explanatory... It only changes if there are two outs.
As a coach myself, it's simple... The only problem I ever have is umpires that don't read and understand the freaking rule book! A few years ago I got 3 different interpretations of this rule from 3 different umpires... So as annoying as it may be I just had my girls run towards first on a dropped 3rd no matter the number of outs and no matter if first is occupied... That way the umpire has to make a quick verbal decision if she's out lol ..
Got all of them correct: 1st = yes, 2nd = yes, 3rd = no, 4th = no, 5th = yes, 6th = yes, 7th = yes, 8th = yes, 9th = no, 10th = no.
Isn't it great when MJH-Baseball hearts your post?
That last clip is only asking for an upset coach. The only thing I've seen more confusing is a check swing uncaught 3rd strike as the batter stood there adamant that he didn't go. Resulting in a coach getting tossed. Dramatic mechanics matter when is gets confusing.
The batter didn't get tossed?! Wow. As an Umpire if a player doesn't do exactly what I tell them when I tell them they're gone. No exceptions. Coach/Manager complains... he's gone to.
Every ump should be required to watch The Naked Gun at least once a year for a refresher on dramatic mechanics.
This is a great video for players who are young and just coming into this age group
Didn't know about the 2 out thing. This is my 1st year coaching with this rule and all but one of my kids same thing. Getting them to understand it isn't easy. Getting the high school kids that umpire isn't either lol. Wish me luck lol. I love your videos. God bless
They'll get it. Drill it.
Most did eventually. At least two or threw times a week though we found ourselves yelling either tag him, throw it to 1st or RUN!!
@@rickrhodes1110 yea there's a lot of reminders :) How'd your season end up?
@@db336 we went 9-15 and didn't lose one game by more then 3 runs!! We did win the end of the season tournament though that was cool. It was a weird season we play the same 4 teams over and over (at the same park) yet we were away 18 games?? The Pres & vice pres are coaches of two of the other teams and they both had 6 players each "before" we picked but errors got us in every loss I just didn't have the talent lol. I was done after the season. Me and my son decided not to do all stars this year. I was elected to coach the AS but we were ready to have some time off. My boy played football, fall ball, basketball and then spring baseball so if he didn't want to play all stars im not gonna force him. He works hard!! Im proud of him😌 best regards
@@rickrhodes1110 Nothing unusual in your description of how little league Pres, and VP, manipulate drafts. I had a team I agreed to take at the last minute since they had no coaches who would take the team. The "best" team in our league had all the top players on it. This is in-house baseball. The "best" team was coached by a moron who knew very little about baseball. Our boys worked hard and mastered the basic skills and strategy of the game, at their level, and were ready for the season. We played the "best" team our second game. We beat them and embarrassed them. Their best player, a good kid with a good attitude, came to the plate and hit a home run his first at bat. You would have thought the parents had just won the World Series the way they were laughing and carrying on. From that point forward we signaled the catcher the location of the pitch. We worked the ball outside until he moved in. Then the catcher would move back outside again. He chased pitches never getting a chance to hit an easy pitch again, that is, as well as you can move the ball with young players. We made sure the catcher and pitcher understood how important it is to work the plate. Not necessarily throwing strikes. That boy never hit a home run off of our team again and a only had a few weak hits after this when they played out team. That coach was furious that we beat them and spoiled the perfect season he was bragging to everyone "he" was going to have. A few other us who were coaching meet with the President and told her we knew what she and that coach did to stack the team and didn't appreciate it. He walked up and started arguing with everyone. He threatened to fight me (he was with one of the low-level wrestling organizations that travel the region putting on professional wrestling matches) and everyone else there. I asked him where the batting Ts were and he told us he gave them away to T-ball league because these kids were too old to use batting Ts, if that gives you an idea how little he knew.
Drop third started in 9u and now In 13u and all my tournaments I've never had a problem with it
The last play,,,, the umpire signalled a strike but I didn't beat him say strike three. When I was behind the plate , I would signal and he'll strike three but never say , " Batters Out" even if first was unoccupied ! If the ump says batters out and catcher did drop ball or it bounced then your screwed. It can also sound like your coaching the catcher! This ump did plenty, the rest is up to the coaches! They seen him swing they need to tell him what to do not the ump!! Our players had to take off hard to first on every stoped third strike regardless. Aggressive base running can create errors! Besides it was good exercise for them! Good day!
AND I was also taught to help my Plate partner by indicating whether the 3rd strike was caught (by holding up a Fist if the pitch was legally caught (with my right hand) or an open hand if the pitch was NOT caught. So all my Partner needs to do is glance at me do make his determination.
This is my first year using this rule, it’s pretty confusing lol
Although rare, it’s possible for the ball to bounce in front of plate, the batter swings and tips the ball and the catcher catches it cleanly. This is not an uncaught third strike because it fulfilled the definition of a foul tip - a ball that hits the bat and goes sharply into the catcher’s mitt.
Also, it’s also important to know WHEN the batter is out if there was an uncaught third strike, the batter starts for his dugout (thinking he is out) and the defense makes no play on him. Rule sets differ on this. For instance, can a batter head for the 3rd base dugout and, just prior to entering the dugout, take off for 1st by running in a straight line from the dugout to 1st, crossing in front of the pitcher’s mound? In OBR - no. In high school - yes.
do you have a rule cite for that last one? I'm pretty sure the batter-runner is out for abandonment if he leaves the dirt circle (or where the dirt circle should be) while showing no intent to advance, in both rulesets... but if you have a rule cite or caseplay saying it's different for NFHS I'll be glad to learn.
@@davej3781 I'm not sure what you're looking for. In OBR, it explicitly says when the batter is out on an uncaught third strike.
Rule 5.05(a)(2) Comment: "A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be declared out once he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate."
For NFHS, there is no language as above. In fact, there are case plays that specifically permit the batter-runner to advance to 1st on an uncaught third strike provided the batter-runner does not first enter dead ball territory (i.e. dugout).
@@DavidEmerling79 right, that's what I'm looking for, an NFHS caseplay that says that... I'd have enforced it the same as OBR.
@@davej3781 There are NFHS case plays that specifically address this issue - but I hate paging through the case book to find things. It's not very user friendly. You really don't need the case book, though.
Straight from the rule book ...
NFHS 8-4-1(i) "The batter-runner is out when on a dropped third strike, he gives up by entering the bench or dugout area, or with two outs he does not attempt to reach first base before all the infielders leave the diamond at the end of the half-inning."
The OBR and NFHS rule used to be the same, but OBR changed it, mostly as a result of this controversial play (link below). The batter starts to walk away and then changes his mind and runs to first. That ended up being the winning run in a post-season game.
www.mlb.com/video/a-j-takes-first-c20254775
EDIT: I found the relevant case play in the 2022 NFHS case play book.
7.4.1 SITUATION A (p.65) "With R1 on first, B2 has two strikes and swings at the next pitch. F2 drops the ball and fails to throw to F3 at first. There are (a) no outs or (b) two outs. *RULING:* In (a), B2 is out because first base was occupied. In (b), B2 is safe at first if he reaches first before the half-inning ends or before all infielders leave the diamond. He is out if he gives up by entering the bench or dugout area."
@@DavidEmerling79 great, many thanks for the rule cite and matching case play; now if it happens this season I won't make the wrong ruling.
regarding the OBR rule change, it doesn't seem like the "AJ Takes First" play would change in any way with either rule - either way he never left the dirt circle. however it does illustrate why I don't make a strike indication at all on an uncaught 3rd strike - I go directly to a big "safe" mechanic and hold it while opening the gate for F2
0:13 that is sick, bro is def out but that’s still crazy
That was always my biggest gripe with umpires, particularly in youth baseball. Everything seemed to be a secret and nobody knew what was going on. Few umpires used their voice. The vast majority of the "arguments" with coaches and players was not about the merit of the call ... it was that nobody could ever tell what the call was. And that's exactly what happened in that last clip -- the frustration and confusion wasn't because of the call ... it was because nobody knew what the call was.
The reason for the dropped third strike rule is that, in baseball, a ball needs to be caught on a fly for the out to be automatic. If a batted ball is caught on a fly, the batter is out. Otherwise the batter-runner must be tagged out or be thrown out at first base. The same logic applies to a third strike. If the catcher cleanly catches the third strike, the batter is out. Otherwise, he must be tagged or thrown out at first.
I believe you that that's the reasoning, but it doesn't make sense in my brain. I understand if it's foul tipped that the catcher has to catch it for it to be an out. But if the batter doesn't even make contact with the ball, why apply the same logic?
Asking MLB that question, not necessarily you.
The reason for the dropped third strike is,,,, the double play! Same as the IFR. Infield fly rule. One out, runner on first,,,, dropped third strike,, catcher throws to second for the force,, then to first. Double play!! There you have it! Your welcome!
@@stevehamman4465 No, that's the reason why the catcher does NOT have to tag the batter-runner or throw to first if there's a runner on first with fewer than two outs. The reason why, in all other situations the batter is not automatically out on a dropped third strike, is what I said.
@@vincesmith2499 your confusing the interpretation of the rule , with , the REASON for the rule!! The reason is ,, having a catcher drop it on purpose, and turning a double play! It's the first base is unoccupied, batter is out part that your missing. The question was WHY is there a droped third strike rule! Again, it's to protect the offense! Just like the infield fly rule!
@@stevehamman4465 No. You're confusing the rule with the exception to the rule when there is a runner at first with less than two outs. I'm talking about why the batter is NOT out on a dropped third strike; you're referring to the situation where he IS out. Apples and oranges.
4:55 - Could have easily tuned into another problem. Batter/Runner #21 clearly moves from foul territory to well inside the base path and on to the grass. There was a clear throw and catch for an out but had it not the umpire would/should make the call of Runner Lane Interference
You are correct, and with other runners on base, this would be a dumb move by the batter/runner. But with no one on base and you are an easy out, running like he does here might cause a bad throw. That's not going to be interference. It's only interference if the runner interference with the player at first *receiving* the throw...so bad throws such as 3 feet over the head of the first baseman would not constitute Runner Lane Interference. It's a smart move...
@@MJHBaseball in NFHS rules you don't have to have a quality throw to get RLI. The catcher can throw it 10 ft over 1st baseman's head, it is still RLI. Get the out.
@@MJHBaseball Correct it can only be interference if a play could have been made.
@@bryonweatherford1772 Not accurate. If a play clearly cannot be made in the Umpire's judgement there is no possibility of interference on the play.
@@guiwhiz NFHS rules don't make the distinction that the ball be catchable. Any throw to first base from the vicinity of home plate to retire a runner who is outside the running lane creates legitimate grounds for judging running lane interference.
It's also easy to remember when you consider that the catcher can always drop the pitch, or the pitcher can always throw it down in the dirt. Thus, with a runner on first, you take away the force, and the cheap double play by calling the batter out. Once two are out, then the cheap double play isn't an option any more, so you give the offense its choice of what out it wants to go for.
The batter strikes out
The catcher does not catch the pitch in the air
There are less than two outs and first base is unoccupied or there are two outs
This is how I remember it as well. Same as the infield fly rule.
I'm still confused. What if there just wasn't that dropp/uncaught 3rd strike rule at all. Then you wouldn't have to worry about any of it right?
@@justinburgan4184 Sure, but this is a rule that allows the batter to advance even when struck out which adds some excitement to the game, and punishes the catcher for dropping the ball. The thing is to make sure the catcher cannot take advantage of the rule by dropping the ball and creating a force.
@@craigdupree1687 yeah I guess. And it does stop the pitchers from throwing extreme junk when they know a hitter is swinging at almost anything. Keeps the game exciting.
With less than 2 outs, and 1st is UNoccupied, the batter may advance and a throw to first would be required (or tag him before he gets too far away). Any runner at any base may advance at their own risk. If 1st base is occupied, dropped third is the out on the batter. Runners may advance at their own risk.
If there are 2 outs, a dropped third requires a throw or tag for the final out. If the bases are loaded all runners should be advancing (like a ground ball) and the catcher can step on home plate for the out.
All correct as the rule is fairly simple as long as you know it. You didn't touch on it here but one of the videos showed it: if the runner begins the pitch on first with fewer than two outs, the batter is out, even if the runner happens to steal and is on second or in-between first and second by the time of the dropped third strike.
Right... the point is the runner does not HAVE to run. When I Ump the younger kids (whose coaches/managers are also usually pretty green) I will tell both teams that the dropped 3rd strike does NOT apply on this pitch. Much better than having to sort of the mess when the batter goes mistakenly and then the kid on 1st panicks and runs improperly. After all we're trying to get these kids to both know and love the game not punish them for ignorance.
Thank you, I was wondering whether or not a steal attempt would change this.
The second example is funny because the catcher tagged the batter/runner, as he should have, but with an empty glove while holding the ball in his other hand. Ump signaled out anyway.
A drop third I’m pretty sure is when I the ball doesn’t bounce on he ground and it is when the catcher catches is but then drops it on third strike
For umpire mechanics, in situations where the batter cannot advance, the plate umpire should indeed signal the batter is out. In situations where the batter CAN advance the plate umpire should come up loudly and say, "No catch! No catch!" and give a safe signal. I actually prefer to just give the safe signal with my right arm and hand so it differentiates from a standard safe signal. Field umpires...if you have a caught third strike hold a fist down at your side so, the plate umpire can see. If you have an uncaught third strike, hold your hand open with fingers spread again, so the plate umpire can see that. Plate umpires should also be using your ears on these calls and ask F2 to show you the baseball so you can confirm a secure catch.
Never had a problem with the rule.
That lady in the stands on that last clip is at every youth baseball game.
As a general rule. If the ball hits the ground on a 3rd strike always tag the batter or throw him out just to be safe.
"Misunderstanding" and "especially at the younger levels." You have crystalized the state of Little League eloquently.
Sadly, I've had "discussions" with varsity level coaches who don't understand this rule.
I got them all. I honestly feel this rule is easy. I looked at two things. 1: is first base occupied. If it is how many outs.
the play you presented as the 3rd one in the quiz section is not the same play as you presented as the 3rd one in the answer/explanation section (3:05 - PU in red, no outs, runner on 3rd; that one didn't appear at all in the quiz section)
That is correct. Originally it was the 3rd, but I switched them up and never went back to change that part of the audio commentary.
@@MJHBaseball well at least you know I'm paying attention!
I really love this rule it ! makes a lot of sense actually considering what if the guy threw a wild ball like a knuckle and forced a strike? Knowing that there is no such rule they would just throw random balls at the third strike making a catcher useless hahahaha
tag or throw runner out, tag or throw, Only a couple the catcher dropped the ball and needed to either tag or throw
In our little league, the Umpire says No catch to signal that the catcher has to either tag or throw at first.
Well done sir!
Question - on the second example, the nighttime game, was the batter legally tagged? The catcher touched him with his glove with the ball in his ungloved hand; I don't think this is a tag under LL rules. I note the plate umpire makes no indication of out and suspect that if the clip was longer, he'd wait until the batter entered dead ball territory before indicating out.
It does appear that way, but the ball was actually in the glove and transferred after the tag. I think the catcher should look into slight of hand magic...
Where are you getting the rules from? Is there a rule book you follow?
There are several rule books. Little League (most closely matches MLB), NFHS (High School which has a lot of differences), NCAA - College and OBR or MLB which is professional.
@@MJHBaseball ok any specific
They are all the same. Most of the videos on this channel are either Little League or High School specific. But for uncaught 3rd strike, they are all identical.
A scenario worthy of discussion: When 1B is occupied with less than two outs and the batter runs anyway, if the catcher throws and the ball hits the retired batter it will cause a loose, live ball. If runner(s) advance as a result, would this be interference on the retired batter with the runner closest to home being declared out? 🤔
I could swear I answered this already... the short version is that the defense is expected to know the situation and the rules, but you might have something if you think the offense is doing it on purpose in order to confuse the defense
If there's less than two outs with a runner on first and the catcher drops the 3rd strike , the hitter should be called out right away.
@@dncolon correct. The proper mechanic is to clearly declare "the batter is out! Batter is out!"
@@davej3781 Exactly. When there is no 'drop 3rd' scenario the Umpire should immediately call 'strike three batter out'
Just had this one...batter out I called (1st base occupied, less than two out)but batter ran anyway, and catcher threw anyway, during which runners on first and second took off to next bases...I called time out, dead ball, sent the runners back, explained the occupied base rule...everyone okay, but I was wrong...I think...the runner going to first didnt know the occupied rule, or the catcher...this JV softball...but if they had, it's a quandary, a deac by the runner?...decoying is a kinda "interference"...fake tag comes to mind, but then hidden ball trick...oh...anyway, I think the dropped ball remains live even though runner is automatically out...outs dont end plays, dead ball things...runners could have taken next base...🤔
Only one I didn't get was the catcher interference one because I didn't see what happen first time through.
Heres an interesting one I saw thats very rare. Uncaught 3rd strike on a missed bunt attempt. Fair or not the batter can run on that provided 1st base isnt occupied or 2 outs.
Why do you add "fair or not" if it's a missed bunt attempt lol? If he missed, he still swung and can run to first. But if he missed, the ball was never put in play to be ruled fair or foul just an uncaught third strike.
@@chrisgibson2779 well yes missed is missed, but if foul (aka not as bad an attempt as a complete miss) then its a strike out with no concern for whether it would have been caught or not.
But its kind of along the lines of dropped 3rd strike in general. The worse the pitch you attempt at the better your chances at reaching first which seems unjust from a sporting perspective. Starting to feel that rule should be changed.
Actually depends on the 'bunt attempt'. A batter must make a reasonable attempt at the ball or not swing at all. Trying to 'square up' to a pitch that isn't going anywhere near the plate to try and artificially generate a '3rd strike' isn't legit.
@@guiwhiz yeah but no one would ever do that with 2 strikes it would be much easier and make much more sense to swing at the type pitch you are talking about in order to “steal first”.
The point i was making was more about on an attempted bunt with 2 strikes a foul ball is an out but if you attempt a bunt and miss the ball completely and the ball is uncaught by the catcher you can try to take first if the base situation allows it. That actually happened to a team I was part of. Kind of a crazy thing that youd almost never see. Bunting with 2 strikes alone is pretty rare. Then you have to have the correct situation on the bases/outs, and an uncaught ball on something they would make an attempt at.
But, what is the point of having this rule?
There is no point. It's another stupid rule (along with balks and The Infield Fly Rule) that Baseball will never change because it's too set in its ways.
10/10 9 was the only tricky one
The second clip , the catcher tagged the runner with an EMPTY GLOVE. He had the ball in his hand.
Look again. It was in the glove on the tag and he transferred afterwards.
Go through this thinking this is so easy I don't get how anyone could have these wrong and then number 10 pops up.
I got them all correct
Wow! have you called the MLB? This is fantastic that you got them all right - unheard of!
Personally, I'm a little confused because in that last situation, it appeared to me that the batter FOULED the ball off, which makes it a DEAD BALL because the catcher didn't catch it, and nothing can legally happen in a dead ball status...and the pitch should not have counted as strike three.
You personally prefer the safe signal? But that isn't the PROPER signal. A dropped third strike signal is right arm ONLY extended out. For a good reason. No one is "safe" in that situation until the batter reaches 1st base before getting tagged or the throw is caught by the first baseman on the bag.
The point to the right is indicating it's a strike. The safe signal is typically only given if the catcher attempts a tag and misses. So holding the pointed hand out, but not giving the "out" signal, lets every one know it's a strike but not an out. For younger levels, I think making a "safe" mechanic can help. Even verbalizing, "you got to get him" is not bad. Or, if the batter is out, verbalizing, "he's out, he's out" can be useful.
It is more properly called "uncaught third strike."
Hmm. That's exactly what the video says.
Different umps have different biases on that. I have had assignors say no box, no call. Others say if obvious make the call. So I will assume the assigning secretary says if obvious make the call. And in video it looks obvious. (A coach has the right to as for new box to be drawn but I have never had that happen.
OK - not mentioned in the video - What about an uncaught third strike situation with a full count? Batter doesn't swing. Catcher has nothing to lose by dropping the ball (even on purpose) to try to get the force out in the force out situation when the correct call is ball four and a free pass to first. Batter appears out at first, and also looks like he agrees that the pitch was in fact a strike because the batter ran. Umpire needs to overrule everybody and declare the runner safe on the walk.
You simply described a very dramatic walk.
What about if the runner on first base steals, then the catcher misses the 3rd strike...assuming less than 2 outs. Does he have to throw to first as the base is now unoccupied?
No. First base was occupied at the time of the pitch. The batter would be out in your scenario.
At 3:03 catcher in blue uniform tagged the batter with his glove on his left hand, but the ball was in his right hand. Umpire called the batter out though.
Check again. He probably should try out slight-of-hand magic, because it's quick, but the ball was in his glove when he tagged him.
Ummm.. no. He clearly removes the ball from his glove after making the tag and tosses the ball to the field with his right hand.
I was taught that for it to be an uncaught 3rd strike, the pitch has to at least be "hittable". Supposedly this is to prevent a batter's taking advantage of an obviously wild pitch by swinging at it to convert it into a 3rd strike. Is this one not in the books?
Not that I am aware of. HOWEVER, for it to be a strike, the batter needs to "offer at the pitch" and you can't very well offer at an unhittable pitch. Like a pitch that is 20 feet from the home plate because it slips out of the pitchers hand. But if the umpire calls it a strike, then it's can be a dropped 3rd.
definitely no such condition; if the umpire rules a strike, and it's not legally caught by the catcher, then by rule it is an uncaught 3rd strike and the batter-runner may advance
in practice, most umpires avoid calling a 3rd strike if the catcher does not catch it (not a swinging strike, but a strike called on the pitch location)... while in most cases pitches the catcher does not catch won't be called strikes anyway, sometimes the umpire will give him one but it will almost never be in an uncaught 3rd situation. the exception would be the pitch straight down the middle, 100% no doubt strike that center punches the glove and pops out... it'd be hard not to call that a strike, even if it's an uncaught 3rd.
@@MJHBaseball What if the batter squared the bat over the plate to bunt, and then held it there and watched the ball as it sailed far over the catcher's head? By being mesmerized and forgetting to pull the bat back, has the batter offered at the pitch, or is this a case of, "You can't attempt the impossible"?
Suppose the ball slips out of the pitcher's hand and produces a bloop that looks like it will eventually be a hittable pitch -- but the batter, realizing that, swings as the ball's still rising in its arc so he can take off early for 1st base. Is he allowed to "offer at the pitch" impossibly early?
@@goodmaro regarding the bunt scenario you describe, holding the bat out is not offering at the pitch. the idea that the batter has to pull the bat back to avoid a strike call is another persistent baseball myth.
@@goodmaro Up to the Umpire's judgement. In the drop 3rd situation the two things I look for is 'did the pitch get to the catcher in the air where a reasonable attempt by the catcher could result in a catch?'; 'did the batter stay within the field of play before attempting to run?' The 2nd one because I've seen batters head back to the dugout and their Coach screamed at the them to run. Well that's too late coach. He left the running lanes so he/she is out either way.
On strike 3, if the ball hits the dirt first but the catcher catches it cleanly, can the batter run or no?
5:53 - If the batter swings and still gets hit by the pitch - it is a dead ball and strike? And not take the base? Is that the same if they get hit at the hands/wrist even with a swing on the pitch? (or only if a check swing?)
yes,called a 'dead ball strike ', if 3rd strike batter out
Lots of confusion and aggravation could be avoided if we would all use the term uncaught third strike rather than dropped. Especially at the lower levels, many of these are not dropped. They simply don't reach the catcher.
We had a call last night that was curious the ball skipped off the ground and the catcher caught it and the runner was ruled out as it was “cleanly caught” despite bouncing off the ground. Is that a thing?
To help people understand why the pitch bouncing into the catcher is "uncaught".... it's the same reason a hard hit liner bounces right before the short stop catches it. He doesn't drop it...he catches it cleanly...so why does HE still have to throw to first to get the force out there? Why isn't that considered an out? Same exact principle applies to the catcher on the 3rd strike. In general language people call it a "dropped 3rd strike" which is misleading. The rulebook says, "Is not caught" or "uncaught 3rd strike."
6:09 awesome!
Stopping @ 2:24 - my predictions
1 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first
2 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first
3 - No, strikeout, 1st base is occupied
4 - No, strikeout, 1st base is occupied
5 - Yes, 1st base is occupied but with two outs, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first
6 - Yes, 1st base is occupied but with two outs, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first
7 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first
8 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first
9 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first
10 - Yes, uncaught 3rd strike and must tag or throw to first
Ok...missed the last one where the kid got hit with pitch but swung. Dead ball, strikeout.
There was nothing unclear on that final clip. The umpire gave a clear "out" mechanic.
looked like he made the 'foul' call at first, then became disinterested in the rest of the goings on
@@jwall62 he called the ball dead and then gave the out signal. But then he could have told both the catcher and the batter that play was dead and the batter was out instead of just kinda standing there while everyone was confused.
@@mastod0n1looks like he’s explaining it to the catcher. The catcher only threw it to first because all the parents started screaming to throw it
He also signaled dead ball, and signaled out multiple times before the runner ever took off for first
The proper term is uncaught 3rd strike.
if you're going to tell us all what the proper term is, you should probably check that auto-correct hasn't screwed you
Uncaught 3rd strike is the proper term.
Maybe you should teach grammar.
Near the end one of the examples was batters interference.
so wait,,,,, ball hits the ground and batter swings and misses. the ball again hits the ground and directy into glove. is not a dropped 3rd strike ? now what does the catcher have to do ?
You'll need to post a time stamp of which one you are talking about. if the ball hits the dirt before the catcher fields it, it is NOT a caught pitch. However, if there are less than 2 outs and a runner is on 1st, then the batter on strike 3 is out anyway without having to tag him or throw him out.
I'm confused at 3:45-
No outs and 1st base is occupied-
Umpire signals out and then points to first and play keeps going.
Is this an example of the officials getting it wrong?
Or am I missing something.
Play should still keep going because nothing caused a dead ball idrk what the point to first was about tho
@@jacktem1
Oh yeah-
DUH!!!
Thanks for pointing that out.
Got all of them. Good video.
You saying the last umpire wasn't loud or dramatic enough? It sounds like the umpire yells, "Foul!", when it doesn't look like the bat made contact at all. No wonder everyone was confused.
I also thought he said foul, and I’m 100% positive he signaled it. Really doesn’t matter about if the bat contacted the ball or not once he’s made that call because now it’s foul. His partner in the field could have helped a ton if he had echoed his call.
my answers to test: 1-yes; 2-yes; 3-no; 4-no; 5-yes; 6-yes; 7-yes; 8-yes; 9-no, because of interference; 10-no, batter was hbp which he swung at, this is a dead ball strike
I beat you on this one. Finally!
@@MH-Tesla feel better?
@@davej3781 A little...
Batter #10. Dead ball strike. Strike three, you're out! Make your mechanics clear raise your arm, clench your fist..
2:11 I can't tell if the batt hit the catcher's mitt.
So “dropped 3rd strike” only applies when there’s already two outs? First and second out they can’t run on uncaught 3rd strike?
Dropped 3rd applies always if there are 2 outs. If there are less than two outs, then it only applies if 1st base is unoccupied.
@@MJHBaseball our league does dropped 3rd on 3rd strike regardless of outs or runners on base
@@joegosselin2888 Ummmm.... what? No league I'm aware of has a 3rd strike rule EXCEPT with 2 outs or empty bases. Otherwise, the catcher would just intentionally drop the ball to get the force at 2nd and double-play at 1st.
@@guiwhiz well the league my kids play for we’re obviously doing it wrong. That is why I asked the question
All right
3:05 no the runner at third absolutely should not have tried to score. there are no outs with a runner in potential sacrifice situation. Yes he should take a couple steps off the bag to get the catchers attention and increase chance of throwing error, but in no way should the runner ever try to score. Sorry dont mean to be rude but just wanted to point that out.
Well I don't know about 'ever', but you're right except in some pretty esoteric 'edge' situations the runner at third just needs to get the catcher's attention.
What about “abandonment” or giving yourself up. I know refs have called kids out if they turn towards their dugout but what about standing in the box or backing out of the box (not towards 1st base). Are there any provisions that cover this situation?
a safe call if drop 3rd strike and other legal requiremenrs
Not out until they hit the dug out.
in most rulesets, the batter-runner is out if he leaves the 26-foot dirt circle around home plate without showing intent to advance to 1B
i suppose I should add that NFHS isn't "most rulesets" in this case; an NFHS batter-runner isn't out for abandonment until he enters the dugout or if it's the 3rd out and the defense leaves the infield
@@ryankey4980 Not accurate. The moment a potential runner leaves the running lane or the batter's box... he/she is out. You can't 'fake it' by getting one step from the dugout and then taking off towards first.
IMO, If a pitcher throws a ball that bounces and is caught on the bounce (cleanly) by the catcher and said swing occurred on third strike, jog your ass back to the dugout, because you don't deserve 1B after swinging at that pitch!
The narrator incorrectly describes Clip #3. He says that in the first three clips the catcher clearly dropped the ball, but that in the 3rd clip first base was not occupied. However, in Clip #3, the bases were loaded, which means ALL bases (including first) were occupied - so in #1 and #2, since the base was not occupied, the batter is not out until the catcher throws to first. In Clip #3, there are no outs with bases loaded, so the batter is out.
1 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base.
2 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base.
3 - Batter is out; catcher doesn’t have to throw to first base (first base WAS occupied!!)
4 - Batter is out; catcher doesn’t have to throw to first base
5 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base.
6 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base.
7 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base.
8 - batter is not out unless he abandons effort to go to 1st base or catcher throws to first base.
9 - batter is out. Ball is considered a catch (batter’s backswing dislodged it from the glove)
10 - batter is out on swinging strike - being hit by pitch after the strikeout is a dead ball, and he is out regardless
Clip three in the replay was different than clip three in the original clips. The poster of the video mentions this was an error in editing.
The point is the MLB mechanic so I use it
I don't get this rule. If the batter swings and misses on strike 3 then he is out. Period. It doesn't matter if the catcher catches it, how many outs there are or who's on first. KISS.
So I understand the rule, but I don't understand why it is a rule? If the batter swings on the second strike and misses, that is strike three and he's out, why would it ever be, "unless this happens."? Rules exist so that players can not exploit certain situations, what is this rule preventing from happening?
My understanding is simply to give the catcher more responsibility.
the defense needs to control the ball to record an out. this is actually one of the oldest rules in baseball, it pre-dates called strikes and caught fly balls
@@davej3781 The age of the rule doesn't give it any extra credibility, you used to be able to catch the ball of the bounce for an out, pitchers throw underhand also where you wanted it, and even ground rule doubles were home runs.. I just don't see how in todays day and age this nonsensical rule still exists. Why is it even considered a strike at all if the catcher drops it on the first or second strike? Then if the catcher does drop the ball on the third strike and this rule applies why do they then get to just run to base as if they hit it?
@@MaxRankFirestorm as I already explained, the defense is expected to control the ball in order to record an out. Not being able to advance when 1st base is occupied with less than 2 out is the exception rather than the norm, because that would otherwise allow the defense to make a trick double-play; the offense surrenders the out in that case for their own protection
@@davej3781 Well your explanation does not constitute the need for the rule or defend its existence, and you need to define control, because no matter how you define it, you get left with a double standard that only applies to the 2nd strike when there is no runner on first or two outs. Because if the Catcher drops the ball then he still has more control of it than if it whizzed past him allowing for the easy throw out at first. A catcher dropping a strike should not reverse time and make the strike into a base hit. The rule is out dated and serves no purpose in the current state of the game. It was a bad rule to begin with that was so bad they had to create a rule inside of that rule to stop trick double plays like you mentioned. If they removed the rule tomorrow the game will only benefit at every stage of competition from little leagues up through pro (softball included).
It’s honestly very simple if 1st base is occupied drop 3rd strike is not in play
Close...but you forgot if there are 2 outs, then even if 1st base is occupied, the catcher will need to tag the runner out or throw to get the out at 1st.
@@MJHBaseball true
@@MJHBaseball or based loaded, touch home plate!!!
What are Germanic mechanics?
Last scenario; the batter swung and the ball hit his person. 'Dead Ball' -batter out.
Pretty rare a swinging batter doesn't get some part of his body into the strike zone... which belongs to the pitcher. He CAN hit you in the zone and many batters 'torque' brings their torso into the zone; which is exactly what happened on that play. The batter got tagged on his back shoulder. Now if the batter 'interferes' with the ball in the zone the catcher is not obligated to catch it in the air. No dropped 3rd.
What's the point of the rule? If you strike out you should be out period. Runners should still be able to advance, but the batter failed the at-bat. Back to the dugout with you.
but the defense failed to handle the ball cleanly, which is required for the defense to make an out
@@davej3781 That doesn't make any sense. If the batter couldn't even get the bat on the ball, why should it matter how the catcher handles the ball? 3 strikes and you're out--Right?
@@mylesmarkson1686 makes perfect sense to me. in baseball the defense controls the ball, and uses the ball to prevent the offense from advancing and to record outs. the defense cannot put a batter or runner out without controlling the ball. the offense attempts to legally disrupt the defense's control of the ball, and in so doing advance bases and avoid being put out. there are a few instances where the offense commits an illegal act and is out automatically (interference, runners passing on the base path), but in all other cases the defense has to control the ball and put the offense out.
if the pitcher pitches so wildly that the catcher does not field the ball, and such pitch is the 3rd strike, the defense has failed to control the ball and record the out
@@davej3781 Thanks Dave, but not one word you said makes any sense. Three chances to hit a ball and get on base is plenty--You don't need a fourth. And if a batter is so dumb to swing a wild pitch, and it's strike-3, he deserves to be out. An if you're so concerned about the defense controlling the ball--Don't worry--Even if it gets past the catcher, he can waddle back there and get it, and whaddya know? The ball is back in control again!
Throw or tag
5 yes
Here is an explanation of the drop third strike, It's a stupid rule.
10/10
Throw it tag
Most of the umpires in all of these clips failed to give any kind of signal.
1 no the batter is put
Out
You didn't cover the batter not swinging so it's a ball and not a strike.
If it's not a strike, then it can't be "dropped third strike." So there's no reason to cover if it's a ball.
People need to stop calling it a dropped 3rd strike, and start calling it what it is… an uncaught 3rd strike.
Hmm. That's exactly what the video says.
The rule Austin is named and will continue to be named DROPPED THIRD STRIKE
2 yes
5:42 isn't this catchers interference?
Looks like on the last batter that the umpire called a swinging strikeout ball is dead because it hit the batter. Then for some reason got caught up in the moment and called him out again on the throw down. My guess is the umpire explained to the 3rd base coach that he was already out and the throw down was not needed and he didn't mean to call him out twice. A semi screwup by the umpire but they are trying. I wouldn't have been mad at that as a coach.
no, he's just re-iterating again, for the 12th time, that the batter is out, he's not calling him out again by any mistake. his basic mistake was not calling time clearly (he did sort of vaguely kind of call time a little bit if you squint) when the batter was touched by the pitched ball, plus his poor mechanics and voice usage.
@@davej3781 Yea I see that too. Make sense. He was not calling him out again, just re-iterating his initial call. Agreed on umpires other actions.
The Ump should yelled out and walked away.
You blocked a lot of the view with your text boxes
That last one at the very very end of the video looked to me like you should have been called as a foul ball. You can clearly tell the batter got a piece of it and so wasn't strike 3 or a caught out at home.
watch the slow-mo version at the very end - batter swings and misses, ball hits him on the right upper-arm. dead ball, strike 3, batter is out
Honestly, you should tag them or throw them out either way, just to make sure he’s out.
Not if there's a speedy runner at third who might bolt if you throw to first.
Ok 10/10 what do I win? Jk
I tell my catchers if they drop 3rd strike tag or throw everytime.
Good strategy until you have bases loaded 1 out and a speed demon on 3rd steals home when your catcher threw to first on a dropped 3rd strike when he didn’t have to,
The slow motion really ruined this video.
You get this one every weekend the coaches in travel ball who don't understand with less than two outs first base is occupied the batteries out I just had a coach cry for three innings what do you say someone who is that clueless on baseball rules and shouldn't be on the field the old adage you can't argue with an idiot comes to mind. The same coach will sitting on a bucket front of his Dugout told me a homerun that was clearly fair was foul and you have to pause the throw to the bases when the pitcher is in the stretch. What's amazing is I've been umpiring for 40 years and these guys show up every weekend complaining about the umpires and not having a clue what the hell they're doing coaching a baseball team absolutely comical meanwhile we do nothing right our pitching mechanics are ridiculous we have no hitting mechanics we also can't pick a ball up catch a fly ball or throw correctly but I'm going to critique the umpiring😂😂😂
A test right away? Awwwww
the reason umpires no longer use the safe sign on these uncaught third strikes is that if there is a tag attempt close to the plate, it could appear as if the umpire is saying no tag. Plus, it looks funny if he signals safe no catch and then out on the tag in quick succession. Also, you should add bases loaded, 2 outs to this. batter becomes a runner so all runners are forced so a step on home plate (or any base) is all that is needed.
The proper mechanic, for little league, is to call the strike (for baseball point to the right with your right hand) and then the signal varies according to the continuing action.
If it's obviously not caught and no tag, just signal safe, no verbal call.
If it's almost caught (not obviously dropped) and no tag is made, signal safe and verbally call "no catch!"
If there's a failed tag attempt, signal safe and verbally call "no tag!"
If there's a tag, point to the tag and then simultaneously signal and verbally call "tag, out!"
The situation you're talking about where the safe signal is quickly followed by an out signal is actually because of poor umpire timing. We've all done it after working so many games, but technically it shouldn't ever happen if we follow the mechanic.
Other organizations don't necessarily have such a detailed mechanic, only requiring that the umpire somehow signal that the pitch wasn't caught.
Little League University has a great series of videos on this mechanic as well.
He mentions the bases loaded scenario at 4:13.
what do you mean umpires no longer use the safe sign on uncaught 3rd strikes? I do, all the guys I work with do; the only guys I see do anything different are older guys trained a long time ago, or guys who do more softball than baseball. maybe this is yet another thing that varies by region