@@hmidithe only churches I've seen for parties in the Netherlands are converted to event spaces and they've installed new PA systems, they don't use the PA that was already installed... Not saying that it doesn't exist, just that the churches here generally don't have this kind of banger soundsystem.
Are you ready to ride the rail for the second coming of Christ with 80000 watts of BONE CRUSHING bass? Tickets on sale now. You’ll buy the whole seat, but you’ll only need the edge! Sunday Sunday Sunday, SUNDAY SUPERMASS!!!!!
@@usernametaken3098 no, Christ is a character in a book that has been used to control most European and American children for about 1500 years now. Bass is one of the substitutes for actual evidence used by churches for almost as long to convey a feeling of power and awe. This is why some church organs go down to 16hz...
@@usernametaken3098 no. It's a character in a book. Bass has long been used to convey power in order to gain control over people, especially in religious settings.
I didn't see a grill on the subwoofer port so nobody crawls inside? That'd be a good idea! When I was a kid, my dad was an organist, so it was fairly common for me to be running around the church unsupervised while he practiced, had choir rehearsal, etc.
I think one of the few commercial solutions I've seen is Funktion One who make a 32" horn loaded subwoofer. I think it is over 15000 watts by itself. Designed specifically for low frequencies like this. You will still need a whole array though if you want to emulate a 64' stop. At that point you may want to try a fan subwoofer as those will likely be a better fit. Nice project though. I've built just a few of these myself :)
@@brianwelch1579 Does that system have any low frequency mutation stops? As if you play certain intervals you can get resultant frequencies far below the fundemental frequency of a 32' stop. Does it have a high pass filter network to protect the subwoofer against those?
Given that the church was built prior to the Second Vatican council, it would not surprise me if a smaller pipe organ had existed prior to renovations made to the church post-1962, it was likely removed like many others (not a parishioner at St. Catherine of Siena, so who knows though). Many churches where I am from were sacked by the post-1962 movement, which is why you see grand architecture like with this church, but they lack certain elements you might expect (like an organ, or a high altar, etc.)
The reality is that pipes are constantly buzzing themselves out of tune. Dust also causes detuning. And the old pneumatic controllers are expensive to maintain and fix. An old organ not properly maintained can easily become a financial burden to a church with dwindling funds.
A real pipe organ for filling a sanctuary that large would cost well over a million dollars for a quality instrument. My church put in a high quality organ and it was well over a million and a half installed. Thankfully, the bill was fronted by a single donation from a decades-old member of the congregation who rose to be CEO of a company a few years ago so the whole project was done without even a donation drive.
@@Engineer9736 Maybe but if you're going to do it you may as well go all out. I'd be happy with a nice mostly linear response down to 16 Hz and enough power to successfully represent large wide open pipes.
I used to sing in the choir in a British 17th century cathedral where the organ pipes were on either side of the choir. It was awesome, we felt like we were part of the music. There was a small door next to the organist that had stairs going up and around the pipes.. This is the kind of equipment that will reproduce that awe.
@@josealfredfernandes normally this might be a problem, but these frequencies are so low and the wavelengths are so long and the subs are so close together, it doesn't matter that much. But also, the Nexo sub and the infrasub are frequency range segregated (crossed over) between each other, and they are both so much louder than the other two subs, it also doesn't really matter.
@@devinlsheets_alphasound sounds great. Enjoy. May the church be blessed by professional sound engineering and may you be blessed by God's blessings and grace.
Absolutely amazing what this sub can do. I think if you would add more the rattling could reduce without loss of low end in the room. Nice to see you arced the normal speakers. Good choice for such a high and narrow room imo
I have been subscribed for awhile now and I just want to say how much respect and admiration I have for the work that you and your company do. It's really great to see so much enthusiasm for the process, backed by a truly comprehensive understanding of the science. Keep it up!
my home church has a restored 1933 Austin that had some digital stops added when it was restored back in early 2000s. the two subs that are there for some of the digital 32' stops shakes the entire damn church as if they were real. compares to the 32' Tuba Profunda pipes that are in there
Our pipe organ company maintains a few pipe organs with WALKER 32' pedal stop additions. The cabinets are tuned for 16 Hz. bottom CCCC for both Bombard, Bourdon and Open Diapason. Just two 15" long through woofers in a cabinet 7' tall with a large rectangular port and a 200 watt Carver amp for each FILLS a huge space. The low end is NOT overly loud, yet voiced for the room and sounds natural. You should NOT have sympathetic vibrations which are heard here. UNLESS you a 32' reed engaged and that is what we are listening to in this presentation?
Walker Technical equipment is indeed amazing. I would encourage the creator of this video to move the speakers so that they all point toward the centerline of the nave, but do not point down the nave. That's what Walker always has us do. Having some speakers point sideways, and others up/down also improves the effect.
@@davidgrandall2783 If the organ would have been custom built by WALKER (which is far superior) , the church would not have to go through all of this extra woofer business. The organ that is installed in the church shown in this video is subpar, but that builder of these juicers knows how to sell. I work for a pipe organ servicing, tuning and maintenance company. We have clients with WALKER-pipe combinations, and and the company in this video. With WALKER it is almost impossible to tell the difference between what is real and what is WALKER. The builder in this video and pipe combinations that we also service is very discernible from what is real and what is fake. But when a potential customer is ignorant it is an easy sell.
I love infra sonics. I only have a single 12 inch subwoofer in my theater but it plays down to 15hz at full volume... the sound of the church shaking is similar to my room shaking lol
A friend of mine got married in a church in Alexandria VA, and asked me to do his wedding video. The church had a small pipe organ with not enough room for pipes large enough for the lowest bass notes. The used several subwoofers to make up for the missing pipes. It sounded just OK, but nothing like what's in this video!
The Allen SR-5s which have been around at least 30 years start to nose dive in output around 40 Hz. If you look at the spectrum analysis graph you can see one of these loudspeakers is about 87dB at about 30Hz. The enclosures are terribly small, and you cannot shake a building effectively with a 15" loudspeaker driver. Laws of physics and placement also makes a big difference. The Allen SR-1 cabinets might have been better, but I doubt by much. The McCauley 6174 18" driver with a 4" voice coil in a 6ft³ (169.9L) 11 ply Finland Birch enclosure has a full range sensitivity of 94dB. Freq. Response (-3dB) 15Hz - 800Hz. A full power handling (AES) of 800 watts. Max Peak SPL Full Range 129dB. Max Continuous SPL Full Range 123.031dB.
Deep bass is something you feel. As Virgil Fox would say "You should feel it where you sit". Since 16Hz is not something that can be recorded, I believe most digital organ manufacturers synthesize the fundamental frequency from the first recordable harmonic . From the harmonics of that pedal voice, it sounds like a Contra Trombone or Contra Bombarde which at times has short resonators, which makes it sound like a machine gun. If you really want to shake heaven and earth a 32' Contra Violone is a nice "thick" heavy "sub-bass" pedal voice. A great old-skool pedal loudspeaker was the EV/University 30W (30"). Two of those mounted in a door way of a concrete walled basement would shake the church and several buildings around the property. It was rated at 60 watts. Unfortunately the cones were heavy and tended to sag if they were not turned regularly.
I remember crawling into, and climbing the ladder within the sounding chamber of the organ in the church I grew up in. That was the only way to access the attic space above the sanctuary. I was never inside that chamber when the organ was playing. And if you forgot to close the access panel or the hatch that lead to the attic, the organist (andaybe a few others) would certainly know.
Would it not make way more sense to have two larger speakers instead of lots of smaller speakers for the mids and highs? I would expect there to be major phase issues with speakers in a line like this.
Looks very impressive. However, the demonstration note you played at the end was, I believe, a 32' reed stop like a 32' Bombarde or 32' Posaune. Unfortunately, reed stops have very little fundamental. They are mostly upper harmonics. I'd like to hear something like a 32' Subbass or 32' Contrabourdon. They are basically all fundamental and would really shake the roof. Of course, those us listening on TH-cam would probably not hear anything because our speakers couldn't handle it.
No I don’t that was Bombarde or Posaune. I don’t think that was a reed stop at all. Too soft. Oh wait, nevermind. This is a Allen organ so that very well could have been one of their “reed” stops.
@@mannfan12 It was a reed stop. If you look carefully, and very fast, you will note that the stop knob pulled out is toward the top of the stop jam, indicating it is a reed. The non-reed stops are towards the bottom.
@@tspiggle1945 is that how Allen does it? Because that is not a standard across makes. But I’m not surprised its a reed because its an Allen. All of their 32’ reeds suck.
The microphone of whatever this video was recorded on would not be able to respond to such a low frequency, so what you are hearing are just harmonics and things resonating in sympathy. A frequency this low isn't actually "heard" by human ears, we tend to "feel" it more than anything.
Dam you could have done a longer video on that. I'm really keen on how you got it to work. My old neigbou got me into the extreme hifi world taught me how to experiance a 16 hert note with Passive Radiators. I use them myself on my home hifi. When you set them right you definatly feel your guts move. Nice work on the install.
I got a friend also that has extreme knowledge and built some crazy setups. He used 3x 15 inch long throw subwoofers sealed in his home theater room. Without ported or passive radiator the box can be half the size and he has strong performance to 13hz that gives my body a strange feeling with such a low shake. Sealed/closed box design has less output compared to ported or passive radiator but with something so large and subs that have good specs to be in a sealed box its pretty crazy shaking and nothing audible other than the walls, my clothing and things in the room shaking.
With a digital pipe organ, i wonder if you still get that latency effect between hitting the note and it sounding like a mechanical one. Thats what makes a talented traditional pipe organist shine, is that they are actually playing ahead to adjust for latency
The acoustic shadow doesnt come into play for unidirectional low frequencies. The concrete pad in fact is an acoustic mirror, almost perfectly reflecting frequencies (concrete tends to notch out 1k) upwards whilst (KJV) the ceiling reflects the frequencies back, creating a resonant chamber for the sound to project from. Only the high frequencies will be in the acoustic shadow of the upper balcony, mainly because of the high freq speaker boxes being arranged visually instead of aurally. The horizontal parabolic array layout isn't necessary in what is basically a giant hallway with a limited throw pattern. 🤓
Need to do a structural assessment on that church. You don't want to have to deal with fatigue associated with non-stone construction. I love a great subwoof, but when you have one THAT good, due diligence is required.
Wow, you basically built a Powersoft Cinesub! Those driver and amp systems are amazing, whether for church or pretty much any other application. Not cheap, but amazing.
How many watts do you have to pump into that infra-subwoofer beast? Multiple amps (highs, midrange, sub, infra-sub)? I'd guess for the infra-sub it would be a Class D amp for efficiency and bang-for-the-buck. And I expect this is all running mono, not stereo?
A guy I worked with back in the 90s built some bass horns for his lounge. Like this speaker, they use the corners of the room for loading. Highly efficient. His stereo system sounded like we were at a rock concert yet the amp was only 15 watts per channel.
Noting that the bass didn’t sound very effective standing up on that platform… of course, lower freqs do not developed properly for at least 20 feet or more. Ever notice the boom car 3 lengths ahead of you?
At that frequency, it is more a movement of air than a note. All sorts of things will resonate so you'll never get a clean "sound", and the microphone of whatever he was recording this on wouldn't be able to deal with such low frequencies anyway.
What you need infra-subwoofer in church and make intensely louder low-end bass tones from 20Hz-100Hz(10dB) to make extremely emotional listening when workship in front of church.
Now THIS is audio engineering! Unfortunately, most church / worship audio systems are a mess of expensive "brand name" stuff "designed" by architects and datasheet readers.
Sound design for a church is one of the most difficult jobs, in my opinion. There's this tiny little sweet spot between "Everything is muddy echoes and reflections" and "What do they think this is, a concert venue?" You have to get the sound as good as you can, but still have it naturally fade into the background of everyone's attention and not distract from the reason everyone is supposed to be there. I've been in a church where they went the 'concert venue' route, and it just laid bare the fact that church musicians and choirs are... enthusiastic amateurs.
@@talyrath It's not that hard. Most sound contractors know how to build a rack with a bunch of boxes and wire it together. Some know how to hang a cluster of speakers. But few know "Why"... so the sound is from underwhelming to barely listenable. The "Why" is the acoustic, electro acoustic and physics of sound. Devin knows "Why" and "How" it shows in his videos.
Somehow I feel the need to write that Paul Klipsch would have enjoyed this set up. And Lord knows maybe he does from the heavens above 🙂 I very much enjoyed the video images and your explanation, you truly love designing, engineering, installing and configurating to the best of your abilities, I find that hesrt warming.
Was the instrument purchased used? I am quite familiar with these and cannot imagine an Allen dealer would have sold and installed it in the church in this configuration (not just the subwoofers, but also the full-range speakers).
If I may impose on your time... I'm about to swap a Hammond C3 and Leslie L122 that I've had for 25 years for a (Yamaha CK88) Stage Piano - essentially a keyboard with a wide range of sampled sounds. Organs, Pianos, Guitars, Brass, Strings etc. This is only used for home (lounge, 24' x 30') playing. To get a good quality (or enjoyable) sound I don't know whether I should be looking at combo/stage keyboard amps, desktop studio monitors, or large Hi-Fi speakers, or "other" Any suggestions or comments?
Go watch Anna Lapwood playing along with Bonobo at the Royal Albert Hall. The Bonobo guys have literally several metric tons of amplifiers and speakers hanging from the ceiling and they are pretty loud. Then when they get to the bit where Anna plays along that organ just... well it doesn't care, it overpowers the amplification. The common joke in the comments is: Q: "How many watts do we need for that concert with the organ? A: "Yes" Actual organs, done right, are nearly impossible to replicate electronically due to the sheer volume of air that they move. At the St.Bavo church in Haarlem Netherlands it's not just the handrail that shakes, it's half the church. Think of it this way: an electronic system has a handful of amplifiers driving a handful of speakers and is limited by how much air the speakers can move. An organ has a separate amplifier and speaker for every pipe and in most cases it will use several pipes from different registers at once for a single note. In a "pull out all the stops" scenario you can be listening to two chords on the hands and two notes on the feet, all playing four, five, fix registers = more pipes than speakers in the setup of this video. Extremes, sure, but that's what organs are all about.
Quite right and some very good points there. Technically it would be possible to replicate a church organ using speakers, and the way I would do it is with horns. A couple of bass horns, one in each corner using the corner of the walls for loading and the rest of it with an array of horns for mid and tops. It keeps the power requirements down.
What I don’t understand is if you were trying to go for that effect of an organ why do a base reflex and why not do a quarter wave I mean yes it would have to be gigantic but also it would actually function as it was a pipe organ.
Wow, I would like to have an infrasabwoofer! I love frequencies below 20 Hertz) But I'm just a 16-year-old simple guy with almost no money) But I do have infra-headphones.
I imagine that building that thing also cost less than other high output infra subs like Danley Sound Labs. Or is it more like most commercial subs just simply cant reproduce 16hz?
Could you elaborate on how many kW you need to in order to produce that amount of low end? That's crazy! Also awesome setup of the curved speakers, that directs and magnifies the sound to a point and shoves out out more the center
@@TimpBizkit Yes, I can imagine a 16 Hz horn being fairly sizeable. I watched a video showing some of the bass 'pipes' used in some of the larger church organs and they are very long.
This is so cool! i saw you installing this on your instagram a few weeks ago but i never knew you built it yourself! I do have to ask, does it just use a regular (30 inches is huge) driver in a box tuned very low, or are there infra drivers that have different charachteristics?
Real nice - impressed most by you being able to manhandle that cabinet ! 50= years ago Virgil Fox came to HuntingtonWV with the Rodgers Touring Organ and a Light Show. I did not get a good look as I was in the balcony and speakers on the main floor but there appeared to be many speakers - (perhaps "40" ???) - some looked like exponential horns pointing straight up at the ceiling. (I think one can be seen in a picture of Liberace and Virgil). Is there any description of the speaker compliment to that touring organ and amplifiers used ? I remember a lot of harmonic content on the pedals.(some clipping?) As Don Keele Jr. illustrated long ago , reflex can be king at LF bulk for bulk vs horn. (fwiw I would use Karlson enclosures plus tap horn for small organ setups) Best, Freddy
We have an Allen R-270 at one of my churches and I had tried to turn up the low frequency amps to try and amplify them a bit, but all it did was make the speakers chatter violently like they were being overdriven. Sad times :( and it's a beautiful instrument. it has 2 32' stops, a contra violone and a contra posaune. I've been able to replicate the instrument via sampling in Hauptwerk and I've tweaked it to get the lows right in the software at home, but don't have the physical speakers needed to really make it sound how it should in the proper space.
I want ONE!!! I got 4 PBG-18" subs from ROCKVILLE with 2 RPA-16 amps powering them. They go down to 20Hz. no problem but. I'm thinking of getting a 3000-watt powered sub from ROCKVILLE It's a wing flap sub 1 18" speaker with a 120 OZ. magnet. This sub can go lower than 20Hz. Excellent sub DUDE. The room I have my subs in is 12' X 15' so a little difference actually living inside a speaker cab.. in your own home from a church space.. come over and listen sometime to my bass setup..
That's amazing I love it I do believe that I ended up here because of look mum no computerchannel and his rebuild of an organ into a digital MIDI controled organ XD but I ain't complaining I love seeing stuff like this really makes my doom scrolling much more less doom scrolling
Not sure if it was the camera or something else. But as soon as you stepped on the pedal there was some nasty sounding harmonics. Guess the distortion doesn't matter when the rest of the notes are playing?
At that frequency, it is more a movement of air than a note. All sorts of things will resonate so you'll never get a clean "sound", and the microphone of whatever he was recording this on wouldn't be able to deal with such low frequencies anyway.
@@sw6188 Yeah I figured the camera mic might be limiting the pickup of the sound. Just figured I'd ask. Would be nice to hear it using a proper mic. My subs eat up 13Hz+ so hearing it properly would have been nice.
The space is there, but they might not have the budget to regularly tune and maintain an acoustic organ. The advantage of digital is that it requires very little upkeep post-installation.
That ain't enough audio channels for a space that large. And a straight line would work better than the semicircle you have set up there. I won't charge you for this free information 😉
@@Dingleberry1856 I would have to agree with you there. Nothing will sound as good as real pipes. It would take some serious speaker arrays and power amplifier stacks to get close to the sound of a fully piped organ. Think rock concert sound system, and even then I am not sure they could achieve the lower register frequencies.
In the 80s hardcore music lover (gabbers) fell a sleep in the original eartquake subs (not the little cerwin vega subs but the real 2.5 meter high folded horns)
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That church got a sound system better than most night clubs. 😂
yup
churches have more money than all nightclubs haha..
Thats why they use churches for parties in the netherlands
@@hmidithe only churches I've seen for parties in the Netherlands are converted to event spaces and they've installed new PA systems, they don't use the PA that was already installed... Not saying that it doesn't exist, just that the churches here generally don't have this kind of banger soundsystem.
@@rikzel it was a hit item in the news here in nl a couple of years a go. Just imagine a disco ball and some bass in a church.
Are you ready to ride the rail for the second coming of Christ with 80000 watts of BONE CRUSHING bass? Tickets on sale now. You’ll buy the whole seat, but you’ll only need the edge! Sunday Sunday Sunday, SUNDAY SUPERMASS!!!!!
Golden comment
You win lol
I read this in the voice and everything.
3:12 Bose basss
😂 lmfao
the last thing i would ever expect a church to say is “we need more bass”
You’d be surprised. It’s less about the priest/pastor, and more about the organist complaining lol
That infra sub will make you feel the christ in you indeed
That's the whole point. They want you to feel something and this is the only way that can happen
@@SomeRandomDudeNamedDanso christ is bass?
@@usernametaken3098 no, Christ is a character in a book that has been used to control most European and American children for about 1500 years now. Bass is one of the substitutes for actual evidence used by churches for almost as long to convey a feeling of power and awe. This is why some church organs go down to 16hz...
@@usernametaken3098 no. It's a character in a book. Bass has long been used to convey power in order to gain control over people, especially in religious settings.
@@SomeRandomDudeNamedDan I see, so rave is like a church?
You know things are about to get crazy when you’re building a speaker you can fit inside.
Features two bed. One bath. Spacious kitchen. Full basement w/ central HVAC!
☠☠☠☠
Central hvac lol
Pro: "I installed a self-built subwoofer". Nerd: "I jumped *into* my subwoofer to build it." 😅👍
Indeed
I'm moving in, that sub's bigger than a NY apartment
I didn't see a grill on the subwoofer port so nobody crawls inside? That'd be a good idea! When I was a kid, my dad was an organist, so it was fairly common for me to be running around the church unsupervised while he practiced, had choir rehearsal, etc.
@@CheezeCracker You can use galvanized square steel to expand your apartment!
Always design speakers so that they will fit thru the door, that one was close 😆
I spent most of the video thinking the seating was weird being so low. It was until the last 10 seconds that I realized you were in the back.
I've had smaller FOH tents than the size of this sub
I think one of the few commercial solutions I've seen is Funktion One who make a 32" horn loaded subwoofer. I think it is over 15000 watts by itself. Designed specifically for low frequencies like this. You will still need a whole array though if you want to emulate a 64' stop. At that point you may want to try a fan subwoofer as those will likely be a better fit. Nice project though. I've built just a few of these myself :)
At that point maybe a 64' stop is cheaper with pipes
@@brianwelch1579 Does that system have any low frequency mutation stops? As if you play certain intervals you can get resultant frequencies far below the fundemental frequency of a 32' stop. Does it have a high pass filter network to protect the subwoofer against those?
It’s a shame a church that size and the money they spent building that organ loft decided to install an all-digital organ …
ANd they cheaped out on that too! A room that size with only twelve Allen speakers?
Given that the church was built prior to the Second Vatican council, it would not surprise me if a smaller pipe organ had existed prior to renovations made to the church post-1962, it was likely removed like many others (not a parishioner at St. Catherine of Siena, so who knows though). Many churches where I am from were sacked by the post-1962 movement, which is why you see grand architecture like with this church, but they lack certain elements you might expect (like an organ, or a high altar, etc.)
The reality is that pipes are constantly buzzing themselves out of tune. Dust also causes detuning. And the old pneumatic controllers are expensive to maintain and fix. An old organ not properly maintained can easily become a financial burden to a church with dwindling funds.
A real pipe organ for filling a sanctuary that large would cost well over a million dollars for a quality instrument. My church put in a high quality organ and it was well over a million and a half installed. Thankfully, the bill was fronted by a single donation from a decades-old member of the congregation who rose to be CEO of a company a few years ago so the whole project was done without even a donation drive.
I think you underestimate the cost of a proper pipe organ
This is what I need for my home console 😀 A real treat for the neighbors.
I think the original 2 subs from this organ would be already a nice treat for the neighbors 😉 I think they're capable of breaking your home already.
@@Engineer9736 Maybe but if you're going to do it you may as well go all out. I'd be happy with a nice mostly linear response down to 16 Hz and enough power to successfully represent large wide open pipes.
Watching this on my phone to get the full experience
I used to sing in the choir in a British 17th century cathedral where the organ pipes were on either side of the choir. It was awesome, we felt like we were part of the music. There was a small door next to the organist that had stairs going up and around the pipes.. This is the kind of equipment that will reproduce that awe.
They should get eight of those subs :)
100% agree
@@devinlsheets_alphasoundphase cancellation? I prefer only 1 subwoofer to get highest quality possible.
@@josealfredfernandes normally this might be a problem, but these frequencies are so low and the wavelengths are so long and the subs are so close together, it doesn't matter that much. But also, the Nexo sub and the infrasub are frequency range segregated (crossed over) between each other, and they are both so much louder than the other two subs, it also doesn't really matter.
@@devinlsheets_alphasound sounds great. Enjoy. May the church be blessed by professional sound engineering and may you be blessed by God's blessings and grace.
@@josealfredfernandes 8 subs for a huge cardioid sub array
Absolutely amazing what this sub can do. I think if you would add more the rattling could reduce without loss of low end in the room. Nice to see you arced the normal speakers. Good choice for such a high and narrow room imo
If I'm ever traveling that direction I will absolutely reach out for a listen. I want to hear that.
Nice stuff! Would love to see the designing process if you have that documented!
the priest gonna drop some hardcore dubs
You can literally feel God moving in mysterious ways
Such a joyful noise indeed. Bring that bass!
I have been subscribed for awhile now and I just want to say how much respect and admiration I have for the work that you and your company do. It's really great to see so much enthusiasm for the process, backed by a truly comprehensive understanding of the science. Keep it up!
my home church has a restored 1933 Austin that had some digital stops added when it was restored back in early 2000s. the two subs that are there for some of the digital 32' stops shakes the entire damn church as if they were real. compares to the 32' Tuba Profunda pipes that are in there
id love to hear some various songs on that, that organ sound system is insane! All the bass would make it feel like a concert!
Ever considered using a rotary subwoofer?
You can’t call me Shirley, but you can call me Leslie !
Shut up and take my money, i need that sub😂
"Look Mum no Computer" needs one of these for his church pipe organ!
Our pipe organ company maintains a few pipe organs with WALKER 32' pedal stop additions. The cabinets are tuned for 16 Hz. bottom CCCC for both Bombard, Bourdon and Open Diapason. Just two 15" long through woofers in a cabinet 7' tall with a large rectangular port and a 200 watt Carver amp for each FILLS a huge space.
The low end is NOT overly loud, yet voiced for the room and sounds natural. You should NOT have sympathetic vibrations which are heard here. UNLESS you a 32' reed engaged and that is what we are listening to in this presentation?
Walker Technical equipment is indeed amazing. I would encourage the creator of this video to move the speakers so that they all point toward the centerline of the nave, but do not point down the nave. That's what Walker always has us do. Having some speakers point sideways, and others up/down also improves the effect.
@@davidgrandall2783 If the organ would have been custom built by WALKER (which is far superior) , the church would not have to go through all of this extra woofer business. The organ that is installed in the church shown in this video is subpar, but that builder of these juicers knows how to sell. I work for a pipe organ servicing, tuning and maintenance company. We have clients with WALKER-pipe combinations, and and the company in this video. With WALKER it is almost impossible to tell the difference between what is real and what is WALKER. The builder in this video and pipe combinations that we also service is very discernible from what is real and what is fake. But when a potential customer is ignorant it is an easy sell.
Iv always loved speakers and hope some day to have a nice home theatre some day with lots of bass
Dude, that was absolutely fascinating! I DJ events. Loved seeing how you built that sub. Looks like an incredible build and sensory experience!
I love infra sonics. I only have a single 12 inch subwoofer in my theater but it plays down to 15hz at full volume... the sound of the church shaking is similar to my room shaking lol
A friend of mine got married in a church in Alexandria VA, and asked me to do his wedding video. The church had a small pipe organ with not enough room for pipes large enough for the lowest bass notes. The used several subwoofers to make up for the missing pipes. It sounded just OK, but nothing like what's in this video!
Would love to hear more about the system install you did!
The Allen SR-5s which have been around at least 30 years start to nose dive in output around 40 Hz. If you look at the spectrum analysis graph you can see one of these loudspeakers is about 87dB at about 30Hz. The enclosures are terribly small, and you cannot shake a building effectively with a 15" loudspeaker driver. Laws of physics and placement also makes a big difference. The Allen SR-1 cabinets might have been better, but I doubt by much.
The McCauley 6174 18" driver with a 4" voice coil in a 6ft³ (169.9L) 11 ply Finland Birch enclosure has a full range sensitivity of 94dB. Freq. Response (-3dB) 15Hz - 800Hz. A full power handling (AES) of 800 watts. Max Peak SPL Full Range 129dB. Max Continuous SPL Full Range 123.031dB.
Deep bass is something you feel. As Virgil Fox would say "You should feel it where you sit". Since 16Hz is not something that can be recorded, I believe most digital organ manufacturers synthesize the fundamental frequency from the first recordable harmonic .
From the harmonics of that pedal voice, it sounds like a Contra Trombone or Contra Bombarde which at times has short resonators, which makes it sound like a machine gun. If you really want to shake heaven and earth a 32' Contra Violone is a nice "thick" heavy "sub-bass" pedal voice.
A great old-skool pedal loudspeaker was the EV/University 30W (30"). Two of those mounted in a door way of a concrete walled basement would shake the church and several buildings around the property. It was rated at 60 watts. Unfortunately the cones were heavy and tended to sag if they were not turned regularly.
Infra sound is a great way to manipulate people's emotions without them knowing. Perfect for a church!
I'm just glad the churches in my country have real organs,, because we would never have the technical affinity to install such soundsystens
But.. will it fit in my car?
I remember crawling into, and climbing the ladder within the sounding chamber of the organ in the church I grew up in. That was the only way to access the attic space above the sanctuary. I was never inside that chamber when the organ was playing. And if you forgot to close the access panel or the hatch that lead to the attic, the organist (andaybe a few others) would certainly know.
Would it not make way more sense to have two larger speakers instead of lots of smaller speakers for the mids and highs? I would expect there to be major phase issues with speakers in a line like this.
That is wonderful. I need one of those with my Hauptwerk 32’ pedal stops. Shake the house. 🏡
Looks very impressive. However, the demonstration note you played at the end was, I believe, a 32' reed stop like a 32' Bombarde or 32' Posaune. Unfortunately, reed stops have very little fundamental. They are mostly upper harmonics. I'd like to hear something like a 32' Subbass or 32' Contrabourdon. They are basically all fundamental and would really shake the roof. Of course, those us listening on TH-cam would probably not hear anything because our speakers couldn't handle it.
No I don’t that was Bombarde or Posaune. I don’t think that was a reed stop at all. Too soft. Oh wait, nevermind. This is a Allen organ so that very well could have been one of their “reed” stops.
@@mannfan12 It was a reed stop. If you look carefully, and very fast, you will note that the stop knob pulled out is toward the top of the stop jam, indicating it is a reed. The non-reed stops are towards the bottom.
@@tspiggle1945 is that how Allen does it? Because that is not a standard across makes. But I’m not surprised its a reed because its an Allen. All of their 32’ reeds suck.
The microphone of whatever this video was recorded on would not be able to respond to such a low frequency, so what you are hearing are just harmonics and things resonating in sympathy. A frequency this low isn't actually "heard" by human ears, we tend to "feel" it more than anything.
What a shame. Having to listen to speakers instead of pipes.
Dam you could have done a longer video on that. I'm really keen on how you got it to work. My old neigbou got me into the extreme hifi world taught me how to experiance a 16 hert note with Passive Radiators. I use them myself on my home hifi. When you set them right you definatly feel your guts move. Nice work on the install.
I got a friend also that has extreme knowledge and built some crazy setups. He used 3x 15 inch long throw subwoofers sealed in his home theater room. Without ported or passive radiator the box can be half the size and he has strong performance to 13hz that gives my body a strange feeling with such a low shake. Sealed/closed box design has less output compared to ported or passive radiator but with something so large and subs that have good specs to be in a sealed box its pretty crazy shaking and nothing audible other than the walls, my clothing and things in the room shaking.
With a digital pipe organ, i wonder if you still get that latency effect between hitting the note and it sounding like a mechanical one. Thats what makes a talented traditional pipe organist shine, is that they are actually playing ahead to adjust for latency
It takes about as long for the sub to resonate as it does a real pipe! Pretty similar feel
it depends on the distance between the organist and the speakers... for each foot distance ~1ms of delay
The acoustic shadow doesnt come into play for unidirectional low frequencies.
The concrete pad in fact is an acoustic mirror, almost perfectly reflecting frequencies (concrete tends to notch out 1k) upwards whilst (KJV) the ceiling reflects the frequencies back, creating a resonant chamber for the sound to project from.
Only the high frequencies will be in the acoustic shadow of the upper balcony, mainly because of the high freq speaker boxes being arranged visually instead of aurally. The horizontal parabolic array layout isn't necessary in what is basically a giant hallway with a limited throw pattern. 🤓
Need to do a structural assessment on that church. You don't want to have to deal with fatigue associated with non-stone construction.
I love a great subwoof, but when you have one THAT good, due diligence is required.
The church I attend needs (and has, for 40 yrs) this.
16hz is around my favorite frequency :)
i have a tiny room so i can peq my two small subwoofers to produce a little bit of it, it is amazing.
Wow, you basically built a Powersoft Cinesub! Those driver and amp systems are amazing, whether for church or pretty much any other application. Not cheap, but amazing.
How many watts do you have to pump into that infra-subwoofer beast? Multiple amps (highs, midrange, sub, infra-sub)? I'd guess for the infra-sub it would be a Class D amp for efficiency and bang-for-the-buck. And I expect this is all running mono, not stereo?
Big bass you need a big box. Horn loaded…
A guy I worked with back in the 90s built some bass horns for his lounge. Like this speaker, they use the corners of the room for loading. Highly efficient. His stereo system sounded like we were at a rock concert yet the amp was only 15 watts per channel.
@@sw6188 I have a pair of TS-42 horn loaded 21" subwoofers. They are indeed amazingly efficient!
Noting that the bass didn’t sound very effective standing up on that platform… of course, lower freqs do not developed properly for at least 20 feet or more. Ever notice the boom car 3 lengths ahead of you?
At that frequency, it is more a movement of air than a note. All sorts of things will resonate so you'll never get a clean "sound", and the microphone of whatever he was recording this on wouldn't be able to deal with such low frequencies anyway.
What you need infra-subwoofer in church and make intensely louder low-end bass tones from 20Hz-100Hz(10dB) to make extremely emotional listening when workship in front of church.
Do you think you could cover the topic of minimum phase systems? 🤔 ❤ You explain these things better than any other teacher!
The original speakers are from Allen Organ.
Now THIS is audio engineering! Unfortunately, most church / worship audio systems are a mess of expensive "brand name" stuff "designed" by architects and datasheet readers.
Sound design for a church is one of the most difficult jobs, in my opinion. There's this tiny little sweet spot between "Everything is muddy echoes and reflections" and "What do they think this is, a concert venue?" You have to get the sound as good as you can, but still have it naturally fade into the background of everyone's attention and not distract from the reason everyone is supposed to be there.
I've been in a church where they went the 'concert venue' route, and it just laid bare the fact that church musicians and choirs are... enthusiastic amateurs.
@@talyrath It's not that hard. Most sound contractors know how to build a rack with a bunch of boxes and wire it together. Some know how to hang a cluster of speakers. But few know "Why"... so the sound is from underwhelming to barely listenable. The "Why" is the acoustic, electro acoustic and physics of sound. Devin knows "Why" and "How" it shows in his videos.
Will it fit in a Nissan Altima? Asking for a friend..
A subwoofer to compensate for a pipe organ.
There are no pipes; this whole organ is an electronic instrument.
He never similar with real boardwalk pipes . He is not reproduce lower than
@@Minimoifi huh
Somehow I feel the need to write that Paul Klipsch would have enjoyed this set up. And Lord knows maybe he does from the heavens above 🙂
I very much enjoyed the video images and your explanation, you truly love designing, engineering, installing and configurating to the best of your abilities, I find that hesrt warming.
Was the instrument purchased used? I am quite familiar with these and cannot imagine an Allen dealer would have sold and installed it in the church in this configuration (not just the subwoofers, but also the full-range speakers).
If I may impose on your time...
I'm about to swap a Hammond C3 and Leslie L122 that I've had for 25 years for a (Yamaha CK88) Stage Piano - essentially a keyboard with a wide range of sampled sounds. Organs, Pianos, Guitars, Brass, Strings etc.
This is only used for home (lounge, 24' x 30') playing.
To get a good quality (or enjoyable) sound I don't know whether I should be looking at combo/stage keyboard amps, desktop studio monitors, or large Hi-Fi speakers, or "other"
Any suggestions or comments?
Well, this proves my subwoofers work! It sort of made my head shake!
Phase is the key.
need diffusers and some absorption to the back wall this would help a lot
I need to get a job in there. Headlines after a week:
Catholic Church employee fired after blasting 125 dB of Decaf rebassed, 22-27 Hz Enya
Go watch Anna Lapwood playing along with Bonobo at the Royal Albert Hall. The Bonobo guys have literally several metric tons of amplifiers and speakers hanging from the ceiling and they are pretty loud. Then when they get to the bit where Anna plays along that organ just... well it doesn't care, it overpowers the amplification.
The common joke in the comments is:
Q: "How many watts do we need for that concert with the organ?
A: "Yes"
Actual organs, done right, are nearly impossible to replicate electronically due to the sheer volume of air that they move. At the St.Bavo church in Haarlem Netherlands it's not just the handrail that shakes, it's half the church.
Think of it this way: an electronic system has a handful of amplifiers driving a handful of speakers and is limited by how much air the speakers can move. An organ has a separate amplifier and speaker for every pipe and in most cases it will use several pipes from different registers at once for a single note. In a "pull out all the stops" scenario you can be listening to two chords on the hands and two notes on the feet, all playing four, five, fix registers = more pipes than speakers in the setup of this video. Extremes, sure, but that's what organs are all about.
Quite right and some very good points there. Technically it would be possible to replicate a church organ using speakers, and the way I would do it is with horns. A couple of bass horns, one in each corner using the corner of the walls for loading and the rest of it with an array of horns for mid and tops. It keeps the power requirements down.
What I don’t understand is if you were trying to go for that effect of an organ why do a base reflex and why not do a quarter wave I mean yes it would have to be gigantic but also it would actually function as it was a pipe organ.
Wow, I would like to have an infrasabwoofer! I love frequencies below 20 Hertz) But I'm just a 16-year-old simple guy with almost no money) But I do have infra-headphones.
Bruh
i would probably go to church more often if they had a sound system like this
Whatever happened to the rotary subwoofer design? Seems like no one talks about that anymore, I think it hit crazy low hz.
I imagine that building that thing also cost less than other high output infra subs like Danley Sound Labs. Or is it more like most commercial subs just simply cant reproduce 16hz?
Could you elaborate on how many kW you need to in order to produce that amount of low end? That's crazy! Also awesome setup of the curved speakers, that directs and magnifies the sound to a point and shoves out out more the center
You don't often need as much as you think. The corner loading is fairly efficient.
If you built some bass horns and loaded them into the corners, you wouldn't need much power at all. They are highly efficient.
@@sw6188 though a full 16Hz bass horn is enormous. An eighth space bass horn can be a bit more compact.
@@TimpBizkit Yes, I can imagine a 16 Hz horn being fairly sizeable. I watched a video showing some of the bass 'pipes' used in some of the larger church organs and they are very long.
Dude lol, I was like "He didn't at least play something on the organ ?". Thanks !
All you need is a few TV Crimes and this exquisite sound system can be all yours
This is so cool! i saw you installing this on your instagram a few weeks ago but i never knew you built it yourself! I do have to ask, does it just use a regular (30 inches is huge) driver in a box tuned very low, or are there infra drivers that have different charachteristics?
Real nice - impressed most by you being able to manhandle that cabinet ! 50= years ago Virgil Fox came to HuntingtonWV with the Rodgers Touring Organ and a Light Show. I did not get a good look as I was in the balcony and speakers on the main floor but there appeared to be many speakers - (perhaps "40" ???) - some looked like exponential horns pointing straight up at the ceiling. (I think one can be seen in a picture of Liberace and Virgil). Is there any description of the speaker compliment to that touring organ and amplifiers used ? I remember a lot of harmonic content on the pedals.(some clipping?) As Don Keele Jr. illustrated long ago , reflex can be king at LF bulk for bulk vs horn. (fwiw I would use Karlson enclosures plus tap horn for small organ setups) Best, Freddy
What sort of power does the infra-subwoofer demand? What is powering it?
Make/model of sub and where to find the plans even if for purchase please?
I'm a home theater guy with what I thought were big subs. I can't actually get inside them though. Nice work
Allen organs should employ this. Every one I’ve heard has been thin on faithfully reproducing 32’ stops.
We have an Allen R-270 at one of my churches and I had tried to turn up the low frequency amps to try and amplify them a bit, but all it did was make the speakers chatter violently like they were being overdriven. Sad times :( and it's a beautiful instrument. it has 2 32' stops, a contra violone and a contra posaune. I've been able to replicate the instrument via sampling in Hauptwerk and I've tweaked it to get the lows right in the software at home, but don't have the physical speakers needed to really make it sound how it should in the proper space.
So, you build this basically in order to fit through an ordinary door? Very good!
That was actually a happy accident.
That powersoft m-force chassis is a real airpump!!
I REALLY want to build a home theater with one of those as the main infrasonic sub. Too bad I'm poor.
@@nexizen maybe try a precision devices 24" or maybe better for your home a ciare sw12?
A cheap carbuttkicker under your sofa is also a nice add
I want ONE!!! I got 4 PBG-18" subs from ROCKVILLE with 2 RPA-16 amps powering them. They go down to 20Hz. no problem but. I'm thinking of getting a 3000-watt powered sub from ROCKVILLE It's a wing flap sub 1 18" speaker with a 120 OZ. magnet. This sub can go lower than 20Hz. Excellent sub DUDE. The room I have my subs in is 12' X 15' so a little difference actually living inside a speaker cab.. in your own home from a church space.. come over and listen sometime to my bass setup..
isn't there delay with all that cable lengh and the speakers for the organist ?
Those guys standing underneath the sub when lifting it have too much faith in that plastic handle bar
That's amazing I love it I do believe that I ended up here because of look mum no computerchannel and his rebuild of an organ into a digital MIDI controled organ XD but I ain't complaining I love seeing stuff like this really makes my doom scrolling much more less doom scrolling
Need way more than that for a room that large. 64’ pipe is around 16Hz, and a real one kicks you hard in the arse.
shoved back in the corner . . . give us some REW charts . . for you know, actual suability / overall sound field- stuff like that . .
Nice Job
I’ll spare you my background, but I’ve been working with digital organ audio systems since the 70s
churches are basically relgious concert halls lmao
blast some hard techno or industrial hardcore on that system and you have that concert hall
Not sure if it was the camera or something else. But as soon as you stepped on the pedal there was some nasty sounding harmonics. Guess the distortion doesn't matter when the rest of the notes are playing?
At that frequency, it is more a movement of air than a note. All sorts of things will resonate so you'll never get a clean "sound", and the microphone of whatever he was recording this on wouldn't be able to deal with such low frequencies anyway.
@@sw6188 Yeah I figured the camera mic might be limiting the pickup of the sound. Just figured I'd ask. Would be nice to hear it using a proper mic. My subs eat up 13Hz+ so hearing it properly would have been nice.
Church def has the space for a real pipe organ.
The space is there, but they might not have the budget to regularly tune and maintain an acoustic organ. The advantage of digital is that it requires very little upkeep post-installation.
@@InventorZahran that church looks very wealthy
Well made video. Would be fun to se amplifier also
How much do these cost and are there smaller versions? I’m trying to put one in my bedroom
Would you die if you were inside the sub at full volume?
pauzed at 5:37 ... I need a demo! don't let me down now!
That ain't enough audio channels for a space that large. And a straight line would work better than the semicircle you have set up there. I won't charge you for this free information 😉
Your church organ needs pipes.
Can they borrow about $1million?
Pipes need air and control systems. Electronics like this does away with all of that.
@@sw6188 they sound like crap compared to pipes.
@@Dingleberry1856 I would have to agree with you there. Nothing will sound as good as real pipes. It would take some serious speaker arrays and power amplifier stacks to get close to the sound of a fully piped organ. Think rock concert sound system, and even then I am not sure they could achieve the lower register frequencies.
This is the first time I have ever seen someone get inside a subwoofer box😂😂😂
In the 80s hardcore music lover (gabbers) fell a sleep in the original eartquake subs (not the little cerwin vega subs but the real 2.5 meter high folded horns)