I am a huge fan of both these men. As a patron of both their channels, I have been able to watch this twice already. It was a thrill to see them together having a respectful, intelligent, and friendly discussion, which is sadly so rare these days. It is encouraging to see baptism taken with the seriousness it deserves. In my experience, many people are baptized only when required to for church membership. Austin did a great job leading the discussion. I look forward to Part 2.
Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. ____________________________________ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary. _________________________ Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics. _________________________ Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
Adult Baptism is the Biblical Baptism. - Lord and Peter always preached First Believe, Repent and then second Baptise = Mark 16:16 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Acts 2:38 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:41 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. So as you can see First is Repentance and then Baptism. And babies can't do both of those - second reason= there is not one example is baby getting baptized (little children getting baptized yes not infant) - third reason - babies born to Christians are Holy from the time they are born, 1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
@mynameis......23 Does baptismal regeneration actually effect a person's faith? Is it more a matter of when a person is saved or if the person is saved?
No one has truly believed the Gospel otherwise the XTIAN world would be a lot safer. Imagine people whose conscience tells them they believe but the instant they unconsciously commit a sin show they lied prior. God cannot be fooled so God gave baptism as a GIFT.
Sadly missing is a theological distinction between Spirit baptism and water baptism if you do not make those distinctions the debate gets confusing. The Bible teaches both
@@genol.depello7274 the error of Baptists is separating the 2, as if the Spirit cannot/does not work through objective means... it's a byproduct of the revivalism and emotionalism of the Great Awakenings
@@genol.depello7274 lol so true. That is why we Reformed describe the distinction between spirit baptism and water baptism while maintaining the sacramental union of the two (one baptism)
For me, this is the gift of protestantism. We can have gracious debates over something as fundamental as baptism without anathametizing the other side.
@@he7230 that I think is the least we can do. Mankind has already tried killing the opposing side off. It didnt work. We also know voting and bipartisanship fails at some point.
Isn't this a weakness? I mean, couldn't you say also "this is the gift of Protestantism. We can have gracious debates over something as fundamental as the divinity of Christ without anathemizing each other" ? I think we can discuss with civility but it isn't a good thing to not use anathema when necessary. That's why I'm Catholic.
Ok, except that no protestant denies the divinity of Christ. Also it's pretty clear that both infant baptism and credobaptism was practised in the early church.
Having had a front row seat to this, I think everyone is really going to enjoy it and be filled with anticipation for part 2 on baptismal regeneration! Grateful to get to be a part of these
@@TruthUnites The Word “Baptize”: Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text. Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage? Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
@@TruthUnites Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. ____________________________________ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary. _________________________ Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics. _________________________ Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
I was a huge fan of the fact that Jordan B.Cooper had brought up that baptism is the new circumcision and that circumcision is cutting off the flesh and baptism is cutting off the sin from our lives. And how circumcision attempts to do what baptism does. Which is what Christ talks about in regards to the Mosaic law saying that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. I love that! You guys are awesome!
Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. ____________________________________ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary. _________________________ Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics. _________________________ Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
I was a baptist for a decade and I had spent a long time studying theology as a layman but I had never spent much time thinking or reading about the sacraments. When I realized this I began studying them and within a year I was a confessional Lutheran. All of the holes in my theology and soteriology were plugged by the sacraments and I honestly found the arguments for my old baptist position shallow and counter biblical.
Funny how watching this video, I thought the Baptist minister was the one who made the more compelling argument. Hence why this and many other topics aren't likely to be solved this side of eternity.
@@BM-si2ei I thought the opposite. I was a Baptist too, now Lutheran. Studying Scripture and church history lead me Lutherism. Now I can affirm what the apostle Paul says, “Believe in the Lord and you will be saved, you and your household” Acts 16:31.
@@BM-si2eiAdult Baptism is the Biblical Baptism. - Lord and Peter always preached First Believe, Repent and then second Baptise = Mark 16:16 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Acts 2:38 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:41 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. So as you can see First is Repentance and then Baptism. And babies can't do both of those - second reason= there is not one example is baby getting baptized (little children getting baptized yes not infant) - third reason - babies born to Christians are Holy from the time they are born, 1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
A little push back from a Catholic to the point made Dr. Cooper: The disagreements we have are over discipline, not doctrine or dogma. The level of disagreements are different that what we see play out in the protestant traditions. On a positive side, love this convo and can't wait to hear the next two videos. I've never thought about Baptism so much in my life! Also, Because of your videos Gavin, I find myself defending protestants a lot more when Catholics say none of them pay attention to Church History!
Hey Jacque! I’d disagree with that view of the Roman church. Thomists and Jesuits, for example, have had sharp disagreements over the doctrine of providence and predestination. Scotus and his followers parse divine simplicity differently than Aquinas. Theologians in Rome disagree over whether sola gratia is true, and should instead be described as “prima gratia”.
@@anglicanaesthetics As Catholics we have no problem with such doctrinal disagreements as long as it doesn't concern something that has already been definitively settled by a council or a pope. The disagreement between Thomists and Jesuits for example is totally legitimate, because the Church never settled which of the two positions is right. What a Catholic cannot do however is to disagree on something already settled, like the Immaculate Conception for example. If a Catholic deliberately disagrees on that, he ceases to be Catholic.
I find this style of “debate” far more interesting than the hyper passive aggressive style that people like James White prefer to do. It feels less like I’m being forced to take a side and more sitting around a coffee table enjoying theology as a heir to Hus & Luther.
@@koriclaypool9548 great. I am prepared to believe I have misjudged him. I occasionally try to listen to him in case i find him listentoable after all. I'm expect he couldn't care less about my opinion, anyway 🙂 I'm pleased if you can learn from him
As a presbyterian I found this discussion to be fruitful. I thank God for Dr. Jordan Cooper and Dr. Gavin Ortlund. Although in disagreement on a doctrine yet there was set before us a clear example of unity in the faith. We can all see and learn in the church an example of a debate that promotes faith, love, hope, and unity rather than discord, division, and strife. Excellent job brothers.
Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. ____________________________________ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary. _________________________ Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics. _________________________ Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
@@mynameis......23In the context you present if it is quoted correctly he could mean. Apart from or in addition to...blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep his commandments. He never condemns anyone or Mary who indeed is very blessed. I am not saying she was perfect tho. She was a human. Also he does not compare Mary to believers. Jesus had not died and risen yet and therefore no one believed in the sense the writer means. None had the holy spirit but Jesus. Mary knew the most of Jesus mission and who he was. God told her specifically. She was a believer and sincerely blessed.
My boyfriend and I watched this together--he's Catholic and I attend a church that is from the Restoration movement, so we were agreeing and disagreeing with different people throughout. Very interesting and not agressive, which was nice.
Amazing discussion! Both sides were honest with the messiness of the early church doctrine. It’s too often you hear “everyone believed X” and Dr Ortlund does well to point out there does seem to be this third view in the early church of credo baptismal regeneration. For what it’s worth I tend toward Dr Coopers position and I think that once the early church “dealt” with the problem of post baptismal sin, the path was clear for infant baptism to become the normal and established position.
Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. ____________________________________ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary. _________________________ Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics. _________________________ Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
The old presumption argument, “I’m baptized so I’m good” can be made about Cred-Baptist “ I’ve made a decision and went to the altar.” How many nominal Baptists I’ve seen who think that a one-time commitment is all that it takes!
I'm really excited about this! It's great when 2 independent youtube channels that I enjoy find each other and share an edifying conversation. It's quite miraculous!
@@TruthUnites Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. ____________________________________ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary. _________________________ Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics. _________________________ Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. ____________________________________ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary. _________________________ Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics. _________________________ Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
I hope that through this conversation people can see the beauty and joy that is with infant baptism. It directs our minds and hearts to God who loves us.
@Dee-nonamnamrson8718 That is an incredible evil and sadness of this world and Dr. Cooper acknowledged exceptions regarding salvation such as the one you describe, though we can't know for certain everything that God wills, we trust in Him.
With respect to Luther's dictum--who was Baptized as an infant--he means to call to remembrance, not the experience of being Baptized, but what Christ Jesus has worked through it according to the promise of his Word. Incidentally, I was an adult covert and can remember in both senses, but, of the two, the benefits of Baptism outweigh whether or not I will recall its administration in the future. Overall, this was a wonderful conversation. I look forward to Parts II and III.
Glad you enjoyed! I think you are correct in terms of Luther's intentions, though I would still maintain the point I was trying to make -- that conscious memory of your baptism is a practical benefit unto the larger "use" of baptism.
I really enjoy this discussion. Thanks Dr. Gavin for sharing a lot of practical views on how we see baptism, ecclesiology, and how people are related to the Church. I also enjoy how Dr. Cooper provides so many thought-provoking points. Austin also did a super great job for hosting this discussion very smoothly. I do pray that God will use all of you even more mightily to win more souls for Christ and provoke the brotherly love among the Christians. God bless you!
Busy studying this topic for myself now. As a future father, and perhaps future minister of the gospel, I really feel the weight of it. One thing that has come out of this study for me is a deeper appreciation of my dependence upon God’s grace to understand Scripture rightly. These discussions should foster humility, gratitude, and patience in us all
Andre’ Kershaw, 😊you (as you know) are the head of your household. Study it out in your heart and do what you believe God tells you to do and then have Faith in the decision! God knows your heart! Trust Him! Remember, He knows where we “are” spiritually in each season of our life. We are not going to ‘get in trouble’ with God if we were to make a mistake in deciding whether we suppose to baptize our babies or not when He knows you labored over it in prayer and scripture! Training up our babies and children in the Gospel is a lot of work and dedication! And just think, your baby may grow up and your son and daughter may decide to get baptized again! And that decision will be between them and God. My dad baptized me in the Mormon faith. I left that faith when I was 33 yrs old. I love my dad and he did his very best and believed he should and was a Mormon priest. I had a Believers baptism in 2002 in another denomination. He was there and witnessed that Baptism. I often wonder what God did in his heart as he witnessed that baptism. ❤ God is with you Andre’. Blessings and Congratulations! 😊
@@TruthUnites Debunking catholicism I'm more blessed than mary Proof = Luke 11:27-28 27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” 28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen _________________________ CHRIST alone John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus _________________________ Work of God = John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” _________________________ 1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul. Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop _________________________ Jesus said Matthew 23:9 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father. Sad _________________________ Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God Use this to defeat the argument. Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Matthew 12:46-50 46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”. Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” John 19:26-27 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards). By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26. _________________________ We should not pray to apostles Romans 1:25 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Acts 10:25-26 25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.” Acts 14:15 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, Revelation 19:10 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Revelation 22:8-9 8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." Colossians 2:18 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles _________________________ There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. _________________________ Apostles are allowed to marry, 1 Corinthians 9:1-5 1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. 3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry? _________________________ The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic). 1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple 2)He sank down while walking on water 3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan 4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times 5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven 6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear 7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles. 8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land), 9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit), 10)King Soloman messed up, 11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11). Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up) 12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up. 13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20 14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9 If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up. ____________________________________ Galatians 4:21-26 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. Sarah is mother of all, Not mary. _________________________ Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics. _________________________ Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
great discussion y’all! kind, wise, and godly people being generous to each other while holding firm in their convictions. look forward to part II and III.
I'm a bit late watching this, I have a backlog of videos to watch, but thankful that y'all got together to discuss. I've learned a lot about church history from both Drs. Ortlund and Cooper so it's exciting to watch this discussion. I hope y'all do another one soon, perhaps on the Eucharist.
YES!!!!!I have been impatiently looking for and waiting for this since your first announcement! Whatever else you may cover, I hope you both go thoroughly over all the scriptures that clearly do not tie salvation with baptism. I've listened to a lot of Jordan's videos about baptism, and they are hardly ever mentioned. That has been the biggest deterrent from me believing in baptismal regeneration, no matter how convincing it is otherwise. Even Catholics seem more generous in their view on baptismal regeneration by calling one way to be saved a baptism of desire. Thank you SO much for doing this!! I hope you and your family had an awesome vacation, Dr. Ortland and you won't be needing another one after this debate! I will be praying that the Holy Spirit will be leading both of you to the truth, as well as a willingness to accept it. I am also desperate for clarity on this issue! God bless!
Thanks so much, and so glad you're excited for the video! Just so you're not disappointed, questions of baptismal regeneration are really coming up in the next video. This one is more on infant baptism. But we will cover that, and hope to address your comments to some extent then! :)
I probably should have articulated that a lot better! It is less about their official doctrine and more about how they word it informally in all the You tube videos I've watched, in comparison to how the Catholics will state things. Lutherans strongly emphasize that the normative way a person is saved is through baptism, but seldom gives more than a brief nod to Baptism of Desire. The Catholic theologians/apologists I've listened to agree with that, but will emphasize Baptism of Desire more as a legitimate way of being saved. The Lutherans I've listened to seem to only begrudgingly acquiesce to that, while the Catholics seem to be more comfortable and enthusiastic about that category. Sorry for the confusion!
I personally think this isn't a very good argument because of the fact that there's 10 texts that positively tie salvation to baptism. So the texts that don't mention baptism do not change the ones that do, therefore we cannot affirm against the meaning of those texts
I am challenged and encouraged by both of these men! Dr.Cooper here say's numerous times the household baptism's aren't necessary to his view, but never makes a detailed exegetical case for any other scriptural support. The closest I think he got, was in his interpretation of the exodus, but contextually that is not supported, as these people were ALREADY in the covenant. Admire the grace & humility presented by both sides though!
I think it’s more that Lutherans don’t hold to covenant theology in the same way the reformed do, this means that is the less important part. Also they were not under the mosaic covenant yet, but the exodus example is less about covenant more about how Paul uses it as a prefigurement of baptism. So just based off Paul not an assumed covenant theology, we can use it as a proof. Since Paul uses it as a type for baptism there’s no need to consult a covenant theology.
This was such an interesting discussion and I appreciate the gentle spirit in which it took place, even though they weren't able to go as deep into each argument as I have seen in videos that defend only one perspective. I grew up in a credobaptist tradition - infants received a blessing and were not assumed to be accountable until the age of reason, and unbaptized children were considered part of the church community but not voting members. They also taught necessity of baptism beyond symbolism - not using the "regeneration" or "means of grace" language of high church traditions, but teaching that baptism by an ordained minister was necessary for salvation because it was something Jesus commanded (similar to Churches of Christ). High church Protestantism appeals to me, but infant baptism is the one thing I'm hung up on. From my perspective, the strongest argument for infant baptism is the unanimity of the practice in church history (I acknowledge Ortlund's arguments that this was not the case, but Cooper seems to have valid counterarguments for those cases) while the strongest argument for credobaptism is the strong link between baptism and professions of faith in the New Testament (Cooper makes the case that "faith" need not be limited to an overt profession of faith and could be nascent in an infant, but the household baptism passages use phrases like "accepted his message," "feared God," "came to hear," and "devoted themselves to service" which seem to imply more active responses by adults). The best argument I have heard for liberty in the practice is one that Michael Heiser described (which seems more like the Presbyterian than the Lutheran or Anglican view) - that baptism, like circumcision, grants entrance into the covenant community where the saving word is taught. If one takes the parallel between baptism and circumcision as evidence for infant baptism in the "household" passages, then one big question I don't see paedobaptists address is what happened with adult household servants - were they baptized independently of their faith, just as Abraham's servants were circumcised? Seemingly not, since the believer Philemon's servant Onesimus was not a Christian until he met Paul. Unbelieving spouses were also not apparently baptized. This doesn't disprove infant baptism - perhaps household baptism was the default but adult family members or servants could "opt out" - but it is a defeater for reading too much into the "whole household" language when the passage doesn't spell out some more obvious exceptions. (I'm also skeptical that "household baptism" means anything beyond just that everyone in the household happened to be converted. There are other examples in the NT of individuals being baptized alone.)
Great stuff guys! As with all your videos I will be leaving this on for the next few days on repeat so I can hopefully absorb the knowledge through osmosis.
This is just a wonderful discussion. God bless these two pastors/theologians. I’m a ( ) and love hearing from the other view in this kind of spirit of Christian love. Thank you for moderating it in Christian love as well.
Dr. Ortlund quoted Luther to a Lutheran in his last comment. Haha! Dr. Cooper said when Lutherans debate, they just toss conflicting Luther quotes at each other, so maybe Dr. Ortlund just wanted Dr. Cooper to feel at home on his channel.
This discussion was handled in a godly way. Both men carefully listened to one another and answered respectfully, each fully convinced in his own mind. It enabled me to listen without getting internally defensive or getting tribal.
Regeneration is really the first step in answering the infant question. If baptism is an act of obedience, then don’t baptize infants. If baptism is an act of God that delivers the grace and benefits of Christ and joins one to Christ, then baptize infants. I appreciate that Dr. Ortlund doesn’t resort to the caricature that baptized children who fall away disprove the practice. To be consistent, anyone who ever makes a profession of faith who later falls away would have to also disprove that professions of faith save. Any falling away could be cited to disprove any soteriology.
Neither professions of faith nor baptism saves. Accepting the gift of Jesus Christ saves. Both of the other two things are symbols of this acceptance of God's gift by obedience to his commands.
@@TruthUnites it surely was; coming from a restorationist upbringing (stone-campbell movement), I could sympathize with both sides, and I was constantly intrigued after each statement. Great job
@@secundemscripturas992 My dad was raised in the Stone-Campbell movement; ultimately he found his way to the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), which was where I was raised. Not knowing much about the Stone-Campbell movement growing up aside from bits and pieces my dad would tell me, I wondered how he’d made the jump to Lutheranism rather than something which to sounded closer like Baptist churches (based on his limited description of his background and what I knew of some Baptists, at least). When I learned that Stone-Campbell churches believe in baptismal regeneration, it made a lot of things click. (I’ve since migrated to the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) for largely (but not completely) unrelated reasons.)
@@secundemscripturas992 It’s was hard to keep this concise-this got longer than I intended. Before I say anything, I want to be clear that I believe the LCMS has wonderful people in it-they’re doing God’s work. Lutherans and Anglicans are actually very close theologically. Both traditions are essentially Evangelical/Reformed Catholicism in the sense that they hold the first four ecumenical councils of the early church and its three ecumenical creeds to be the best elucidations of the Trinity and the person of Christ (and the Holy Spirit) drawn from scripture-they hold scripture alone to be infallible and the highest authority in the church. Both also don’t cause one to flinch when reaching the apostolic fathers-the works of the church fathers written between ~70 AD and 150 AD (e.g. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp of Smyrna)-an advantage they have over most Protestant traditions (Ignatius, who likely wrote around ~110 AD (~15 years after John completed his gospel) and is well-reputed to have known John personally, is definitely worth a read). Yet they do tend to think very differently and do theology quite differently from each other. In a nutshell, Lutherans will try to give you the correct answer to a question, even if their answer strains credibility (though I believe Lutherans are less guilty of this than strict Calvinists-that is my perception, at least). Anglicans will more readily admit when they don’t know something-at least that they do not know something precisely-and tend to be more comfortable/content with uncertainty. To be a confessional Lutheran, you have to grant certain principles of biblical hermeneutics and epistemology in order to see how the claims of their confessional standards (the Book of Concord) follow from scripture. Anglicanism is much more modest in its truth claims-one can be Arminian, Calvinist (to a degree), or Lutheran in one’s theological leanings and still be an Anglican in good standing. Lutheran theology shines most when it’s approached as the best explanation of the data rather than the only legitimate explanation of the data-the latter is something Anglicanism allows for, and it also allows for a greater degree of theological growth if you happen to change your mind over time. The best short book on Lutheranism I know of to recommend to illustrate the differences (if you’re remotely interested) is Gene Edward Veith’s The Spirituality of the Cross and on Anglicanism is Thomas McKenzie’s The Anglican Way. Beyond that, the essence of Lutheranism is found in the Book of Concord and the Lutheran hymnody (I still use the LCMS’s 2006 Lutheran Service Book for its hymns) and the essence of Anglicanism is found in the Book of Common Prayer (I’ve got copies of the 1662 edition, which is still confessionally binding on Anglicans, in addition to the ACNA’s 2019 edition, which is also wonderful). There’s ultimately just a marked closed mindedness/emotionalism in Confessional Lutheranism that I simply haven’t found in Anglicanism. The best way to illustrate it charitably would be to compare and contrast two popular theologians/philosophers in each tradition. I’d recommend Soren Kierkegaard’s Fear and Trembling or The Sickness unto Death for the Lutheran take on the life of the mind, as opposed to C.S. Lewis’s Miracles or Mere Christianity for how it’s done by Anglicans (I’m also a huge fan of N.T. Wright, who’s also written a tremendous number of useful books).
I really enjoyed the debate, a beautiful respectful one that is not much familier to us these days, i'm an egyptian christian and I really enjoy watching the theological debates on many gospel issues like this one....By the way the reference which dr.Ortlund mention "Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology, and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries." written by Prof. Everett Ferguson is now translated into arabic and I finally bought it and I find it an important source for the Baptism issue during the church fathers period.................I would like to thank the Gospel simplicity channel for offering the chance to have the awareness of the theological and ecclesiological issues
I absolutely love all of this. I especially benefitted from the final portion about parenting. Dr. Ortlund, please do a video on parenting! Would love to hear your thoughts on the gentle parenting thing, not just the worst forms of it but especially those of the Christian perspective that have come to such practices. People like the perspective of Flourishing Homes and Families. I think you are such a faithful teacher and I think I would really benefit from you addressing this area.
One piece of feedback - the "setting the stage/framework" took up the first 40 minutes of this video -which I think made sense for the initial video. I think that 40 minutes can largely set the stage for the second and we won't need another 40 minute intro - maybe 5-10 at the most.
I had that in my notes for next time! I completely agree. When outlining this conversation, I underestimated the difference in the length it takes to get responses when hosting with two guests. Thanks for the feedback!
Great discussion, but as noted around 58:30, it would have been more prudent to have this question be the second topic of debate, and the first topic be on baptismal regeneration. As Dr. Cooper mentions, the confessional Lutheran understanding of infant baptism requires that the sacrament of baptism is water and the Word of God, with faith that the Word of God is true in that "baptism now saves you," and the words of the Apostles "repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins." Thank you for the discussion and debate done in gentleness and respect.
I was baptised on November 2, 1968, when I was a few weeks old. And no man, angel or demon has the power of making my baptism unvalid or inferior in any sense.
That's a problem for Baptists....they have to claim 95% of all Christians through history had invalid baptisms. A big reason why baptistic theology is so divisive.
@@holmavik6756 Jesus is the one who will decide whether a baptism is valid or not. The probability of Jesus accepting the infant baptism is high. 1. Jesus gave authority to his Apostles to bind and to loose 2. When the disciples picked corn on the Sabbath day, Jesus defended his disciples. 3. Jesus said, let the children come to me. Jesus blessed them too. Jesus came to save. He came to deliver us from the clutches of the devil. At the time of birth, everyone belongs to the devil because of the original sin. So, everyone must be delivered at any opportunity. Looking at these instances, Jesus will side with those favouring infant baptism against those who refuse baptism to children and infants from receiving baptism. Those who are for baptizing infants have no hurdles even if they do it because there is still the sacrament of confirmation of baptism or the laying of the hands by the Bishop.
Hey Gavin! As an Anglican I’d approach the question a bit differently, as I’d disagree that baptisms are valid in the absence of the faith of the parents/guardians responsible for the child. But I think we can give a non-arbitrary reason as to why the faith of the parents/guardians suffices for the child: Christ is the Head of the family, and so its representative. He assumes responsibility for his members. Likewise, parents are representative of and responsible for their children. Jonathan Edwards spoke of infant baptism as the parents offering up their children as “members or parts of themselves.” That is, God sees the children as encompassed within the parents’/guardians’ faith because they have a familial union with their children, such that their children participate in the benefits and consequences of their actions. This is where the analogy of circumcision is relevant-all though not one-to-one correspondent-to baptism. Why did fathers circumcise their children as opposed to other children? Because of the familial union which rendered those children as, in some way, members of themselves (I.e Levi paid tribute to Melchizedek through Abraham).
thanks for sharing your perspective! So what is the basis for this particular construal of familial union? I'm sure you're aware people have made the same appeal to include grandchildren as well as children....
@@TruthUnites Good question! It seems to be the way family structures operate through Scripture. For example, take the Passover; the responsible head of the family paints blood over the door posts, and that suffices for the first born. So that said, I actually don’t think it’s wholly illegitimate for Grandparents to baptize grand children. However, it is less fitting for Grandparents to do so unless they are the guardians of that grandchild for the same reason: the guardians in particular stand as the head and thus representative of their families. So the basis lies in the assumption of representative responsibility; who is it who is accountable for the child? That accountability includes the child in the moral sphere of action of the child’s guardian (hence why I’d say an adopted child, or a grandparent baptizing their grandchild having adopted him or her, is legitimate). The parents’ profession of faith sums up the voice of their child, because of the position of representative responsibility they have for the child. They speak for the child in this area as they do in others, God viewing the family as a joined unit-with the responsible guardians (typically the parents) having taken the children as members of the organic unit of which they head up. That seems to make sense of why Paul can say that the children of believers are not unclean, but in fact are holy.
@@anglicanaesthetics thanks for sharing this; I still have my worry about arbitrariness in terms of where the boundaries are drawn. For instance, everyone in the house (slaves, other relatives, etc.) would be saved from the blood on the door in the Passover meal. To me, it seems very tricky to determine where we draw the boundaries of "representative responsibility."
@@TruthUnites yes, good points-so there are a couple things to say here. Even if the boundary were difficult to discern exactly where it stops, we can say some definite things about who is included in the boundary and who isn’t. For example, I’m the head of my family as a man and husband; but I’m not *your* head, so I’m not representative of you. And certainly when my wife and I have children, a child would be someone I’d be representative of and responsible for. They would be extensions of my household. So we can say some things about who would be in and who wouldn’t, making it not entirely arbitrary. Now, what of the Passover? I think this is a really good example! And for that reason, I think a household could be covenantally included through the faith of the head; the difference, of course, is that the covenant requires personal faith for those capable of it. Once someone can answer for themselves, they must; so it they don’t profess faith as capable people, then they reject the covenantal inclusion that could have been theirs. That would apply to slaves and relatives under a household, represented by someone, I think. But even if I were wrong about that, the main argument for infant baptism involves the fact that infants are members of the parents, I.e that parents are representatively responsible for infants. So long as we can draw the boundary *somewhere* (and per my first point, I think we can-i am not your head, for example, and thus representative of you), then it’s not entirely arbitrary. So long as we can say something about a representative speaking for their family/household, and identify those who would certainly be included (infants) and those not (you with respect to me), we can say that the boundary starts to become clearer the further you move from familial union.
I am deeply grateful for this conversation between the two of you. But, I think it would be massively helpful to have the Presbyterian position included as well, since it seems to me to be the middle ground between your two views.
Late to the party on this one! I have come to a credobaptist position as an adult, but I want to caution those who hold this view to be careful not to dismiss infant baptist position too flippantly. I was raised Anglican in a congration with a similar view to the Presbyterians and baptised as an infant and my first exposure to believer's baptism was when I was about ten or so. I was attending a children's program at another church and one of the teachers told me that infant baptism was wrong. This deeply upset me and continued to do so until I was in graduate school.
This was such a wonderfull discussion and I can't wait to see the next part (luckily I don't need to literally wait..) I come from a country where "everybody" was lutheran in my childhood. In former generations people needed to be members of church to get married etc. I see a lot of bad fruit: general belief in my childhood was (and still is) that if you are baptized as a baby and "a good person", you are good to go to heaven if such a place happens to exist. Practically people were atheists (nominal christians) and most attend to church on christmas maybe because of the beautiful feeling and that's about it. Godparents don't believe in God (or maybe they believe that there can be some kind of a higher power that they don't want to think about) and no-one is guiding that baptized infant into knowing God. Godparents are there to give presents/money for birthdays and christmas. Teens attend to a camp before confirmation and learn to smoke, drink and get layed there.. many of my friends have told that it was the final point of becoming an atheist. They want to take part in confirmation to get money as present afterwards. To be a lutheran priest you need to study theology in our capitals university and there is even a saying of someone getting started in spirit and finnished in uni.. it is most definetly not a place where theory and faith can coexist, it's the ultimate place for atheistic affirmation and takes christianity merely as an interesting and maybe proffitable human culture. Most priests and other workers in church are practically atheists that see some cultural value in christianity. It is also culturally very unacceptable to talk about faith or religion over here. Somehow the lutheran take on religion is (around here) that everything you need is given to you in baptizm as a baby and any works (including actual faith as adult or following Jesus as your Lord in your life) are simply unnecessary and thus faith is an extremely personal and private thing not to be discussed about. I think nothing is as taboo around here as christian faith. People who grew up as nominal lutherans never got to know their religion and now many children of actual atheists don't see the value in cultural christianity any more and they leave the church. People know nearly nothing about christian theology and faith and they have grown extremely allergic to it. The shrinking lutheran church has sold all it's values in attempt to keep some members in. Most of the remaining members see it as a handy construct to collect more money and produce nice services as crafting clubs for kids etc. Sort of r.i.p. Jesus in the church-church. We have next to none catholic or orthodox christians here so lutheran church is as "high church" as it gets. I think it is somewhat distorted compared to the original lutheran theology. It has been really difficult for me to see anything good in pedobaptizm seen the results in my country and as well it's difficult to understand the theology behind it given the nature of theologians that I'm familiar with in my language. Getting more familiar listening to english and finding this kind of content in youtube is really really helpful. Now to the next part :)
HIPPOLYTUS “Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]). JOHN CHRYSOSTOM “You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]). ORIGEN “Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]). “The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]). IRENAEUS “He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]). AUGUSTINE “What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]). “The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]). Almost all the early church fathers believed in infant baptism and practiced it.
@oskarm646 The bible also described baptizing entire families. Also from a Jewish perspective you entered God's covenant as an infant thru circumcision. It wouldn't make sense that in the new testiment that you could'nt enter as an infant in God's new covenant. The new testament is always better not worse. Baptism replaced circumcision.
44:30 never asked myself how a conversion baptism to judaism would be made, when i first heard this i did not believed it but after searching it, yeah, infants of converts to judaism would also have been baptised. This means that this would have been the practice that jewish converts to christianity would employ as well. This changes everything. Thank you Jordan Cooper, i think you just ended a theological dilemma that i had for the last 9 months
Infant baptism poses no problem because there is still the sacrament of confirmation of baptism or laying of the hands that we read in Acts. When we are born, we belong to Satan due to the original sin. And so, we must deliver the infants and children from the clutches of the Satan. Jesus died for all including all those who have no capacity to profess their faith. These category of people too dies. And if we really love them, we should be fighting for them instead of leaving them to the devil for grab. The validity of baptism will be decided by God but it is our duty to intercede for one another.
I like the idea of both. The first one is to unite with the family related metaphorically mystical the second when one wants to join the church as an adult.
"A lot of [-] the top Patristic Scholars on Baptism end up Credobaptists plus Baptismal Regeneration." Okay, that makes me feel a lot better. It's nice to know I'm not alone. 😅 Would love to get a list of those Scholars if at all possible.
I mention some at the end of part 2 of our second conversation. Everett Ferguson, George Beasley-Murray, and David Wright (sort of) are examples. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the explanation on the Childrens Faith. What baffles me is why men in the church get to judge children on whether or not "they are ready" to be baptised?? These are Gods children, when Gods children want to follow Jesus, you baptise them!
Im glad my mom and dad baptized me when i was 3 in the greek orthodox church ☦️ and they told me about Jesus and marry that Jesus is god and i believed in it right away and i am glad to be in a Christian ✝️ family.thank u god for my family and generations family that no u and u no us before we were born.❤
Hey Dr. Ortlund, awesome conversation! Quick question, what would you say of the argument that God grants grace and spiritual blessings to individuals on behalf of those who put their faith in him? For example, in Mark 2, Jesus forgives the sins of the paralytic because he sees the faith of those who brought him into the house. Therefore, wouldn't this provide some evidence that God will honour the baptism of an infant on account of their parents faith in him?
Thanks! It's not clear to me that the paralytic is not included in the people in whom Jesus sees faith in Mark 2. Also, note he rises when Jesus tells him (verse 12). Just my two cents.
@@TruthUnitesI don’t see how that isn’t a perfect paradigm for baptism. Baptism as a transformative work of Christ. One can be brought in faith by his representatives and he is healed and rises up (is raised in faith) and goes on his own, BUT ONLY BECAUSE JESUS HEALED HIM AND COMMANDED HIM.
Pastor Ortlund, "narrative compression" - excellent succinct phrase regarding historical narrative in Acts. I think it applies to Acts 2:38 also. Your comment on Tertullian was excellent also, seems like infant baptism had just recently started, rather than apostolic tradition. Enjoyed this very much; and I appreciate Jordan Cooper's demeanor also. Looking forward to the discussion on "baptismal regeneration"
My - limited - understanding is that as a Sacrament which God is bound to, Holy Baptism confers the gift of the Holy Spirit on whoever receives it. How he or she responds to that gift is an exercise of their free will. (The Sacrament of Confirmation gives the person the opportunity to make a positive response to that gift, and to receive again the Holy Spirit). On the other hand, the Ordinance of Believer's Baptism is simply regarded as a public profession of faith. This is a fundamental difference because the first is about God's action, the second about the believer's action.
I'm going to listen now to part 2, which will probably address my question of " being born again." How does being born again happen...with baptism or faith alone and by the Spirit's indwelling because He was invited in to guide and change one's life?
The wrong question is being asked…the right question is “is infant baptism valid”. It’s a very easy answer. The early Christians, closest to the apostles, all believed in infant baptism. They know best, so when the Bible is silent or can be interpreted different ways, we should trust the traditions of the early church. Yes infant baptism is valid, and baptism is necessary for salvation (except in rare circumstances).
Bill, just for fun, go into church fathers and find who the first named person who was clearly infant baptized? Whereas every church father in 2nd and 3rd that we know about were credo baptized. Ephraem the Syrian, Basil of Caeserea, Greogory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianus, John Chrysotosm, Ambrose, Jerome, Rufinus, Paulinus of Nola, and Aigustine. Along with Ambrose's brothers Satyris, Gregory of Nazianzus father Gregory, sister Gorgina and brother Caesarius, Jerome's froends Heliodoris and Rufius, Paulinus of Nola's brother and Rufinus of Aquileia.
Baptism is not nessicary for salvation. To say so fundamentally upends the nature of our relationship with God and it also redefined grace and faith. Baptism is a sign of salvation, an act of obedience. It can only be understood this way in light of the biblical macro narrative, which is that grace through faith saves
At 51:40 Dr. Ortlund says he doesn't think anyone got circumcised because of mom and dad in the OT. He later goes on to say mom and dad do not have to have a profession of faith before circumcision. I really really really struggle to see this point of view. Maybe I misunderstand him.. The 8 day old baby didn't bring himself to circumcision. It seems obvious that they were circumcised because of mom and dad. And they did make a profession of faith. The very act of bringing their child to be circumcised was a profession of faith in God's promise.
Briefly, the theological basis for circumcision was not believing parents but lineage to Abraham (Gen. 17:9). Your parents could play a circumstantial role in the happenings, but that is different from the theological basis. Hope this helps.
I believe children can have a basic faith. When very young, they have faith that mother will come when they cry, she will feed them when hungry and will be comforted by her and have their needs met. As fallible humans, we can do these things, how much more our omnipotent heavenly Father can meet the needs on a higher level that a baby can 'understand'.
The provision for receiving that promise 1:04:01-1:04:06 that is written in Acts 2:38-39 is repentance and being baptized in Jesus's name, not just repentance and calling, as Dr. Gavin Ortlund stated.
To understand infant baptism in biblical sense goes back to circumcision where an 8 day old male is baptized because it is the covenant of God and Abraham. Then in NT in Acts, a group Pharisees converted to Christianity wanted gentile converts to be circumcized but Paul objected because it is baptism which is the circumcission of heart. A lot of adults were baptized including their households, and when you say household that includes infants even the servants or slaves. As baptism replaces circumcission, all infants are baptized not just baby male infants.
It´s interesting that many people say church history supports infant baptism when it obviously does not. The earliest sources that refer to it are from the 3rd century. But in the mid second century we read: "And for this [rite] we have learned FROM THE APOSTLES this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may NOT remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the CHILDREN OF CHOICE AND KNOWLEDGE, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe" Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch. 61 So in the earliest patristic source that addresses the question of whether or not it is one´s one choice Justin literally tells us: a) what he´s going to explain is from the apostles b) unlike natural birth the new birth in baptism should be based on our own choice c) in fact, he says, that´s the whole point of baptism So if we are going by early church history it is a closed case.
There are also adults who have made a superficial profession of faith and were baptized who later realized and admitted they were not genuinely "regenerate" at the time who repeated baptism again later after their hearts were really changed. Many have done this to marry a Christian before they themselves were genuine believers. Some of these never became believers even though they went through the process. Countless people have the testimony that they "grew up in church" and were baptized as infants and again in their youth, and "thought they were Christians" until God really changed their hearts by his Spirit and they truly became "born again" which was evidenced by dramatic and permanent changes in their lives and behavior. "Cultural" and "familial Christianity" can be a dangerous trap even though many children do become genuine believers at a young age in those situations. Many remain decieved about their salvation their entire lives because of it though.
I never believed in infant baptism until I started reading the church fathers, which led me to Lutheran theology. If infants can have a faith, which they can, they can be baptized. Lots of scriptures point to infants believing.
Infant baptism is THE best visual representation of the Gospel. How can anyone deprive their congregation of participation in this condensed Bible on display? Doctrines can go where ever they want. As long as infants are baptised, the gospel lives! Not saying those who don't do it are anti-christ or anything. I think they act as the perfect reminder to actually gaze at the miracle that is baptism as practised by the descendants of Romans, who thought it normal to put babies on the trash heap. Infant baptism is the best illustration of the turning upside down of the world that has happened since Christ. Thanks for being a nicely behaved reminder of why it's so beautiful!
As a parent, I would think that believing parents would want to have their children baptized, especially if those parents are also Jewish and believe in circumcision as an entry into a covenant with God. I'm not saying that's why it happened, but just speculating as a parent that if I believed that baptism would claim my child for the God I believed in, I would want that done as soon as possible in order to protect my children
God Bless the work of your hands Dr. Ortlund- I am in the very awkward position of being a commited Anglican with, nevertheless, Strong Credobaptist leanings- I simply can't see it any other way. If you have any advice for such a confused individual as I it would be warmly recieved.
Something increasingly obvious that brings me great joy: the first whole sale (institutional) reunions with Rome are going to come from churches named for Sola Scriptura (SS) Protestführer Martin Luther (of polygamy and anti-James fame).
In some spots it seems kind of like the discussion hinges on whether or not one can lose their regeneration. Perhaps I misunderstood Dr. Cooper, but it sounded like he said he believes one’s regeneration can be lost. I believe your stance on the finality of regeneration plays a larger role in your stance on infant baptism.
Just an interesting thing to mention. Here in Chile, pentecostalism was founded independent from the United States, in an independent revival, in the Methodist Episcopal Church, so pentecostalism here mostly believed in Pedobaptism, but due to the low theological instruction of pastors with the arrival of American (USA) pentecostalism many Chilean congregations stopped baptizing infants and start being credo baptist, but at the same time the largest pentecostal denominations in Chile continue their methodist ancestry using pedo baptism, even when most of they have no or few knowledge why they do what they do (biblically)
I enjoyed this very much. I guess my only gripe would be that the conversation felt a little clunky trying to keep baptismal regeneration for the next discussion. Discussing who should be baptized prior to engaging together on what baptism does just came off as a little backwards IMO. Not sure you can separate the two concepts. Good discussion none the less.
It's an excellent point! At the same time... I'm not sure we'd ever get through the baptismal regeneration debate to even get on to the infant baptism debate if it came first! (I'm half-joking... sort of...)
1:25:57 but it’s not in the scripture. Please help me. Nothing I see in the scripture would preclude an individual from justification if they were not baptized. In other words, justification does not in anyway hinge on baptism, correct??????
It may be just me but as much as I enjoy listening to Dr. Ortlund his position seems lacking of mystery, beauty, and depth that can be found when pondering the truth of infant baptism. It sort of is putting detail 'on the operating table' for careful labeling and analysis. I think the Lutheran position is much more comfortable with there being things beyond our comprehension though we continue to seek after truth and marvel at God's goodness. Dr. Ortlunds final thoughts about baptism and taking about his kids was great though, I am thankful for the joy he has found in his position.
Hi Pastor Gavin, could you make a video about what happens to infants and young children that die? I am struggling with finding a unified answer to this question within reformed circles and it has been troubling me
Zack Bliss, do not be troubled!😊 Since I didn’t see an answer from Pastor Gavin, I wanted to let you know that there is a Biblical answer to your question. Look up the story of King David and Bathsheba. Their first baby dies even After much prayer, & fasting. And David declares, he would see his baby in heaven!! ❤ Blessings to you!
Nice discussion, but I think about the many, many people that I know who were baptized as infants and have no regard for God as adults. I don't even see how baptism has meaning apart from being a decision made voluntarily.
I'm glad for this, but I'm not sure how one can deny infant faith when it is spoken of both in the Old and New Testament. Besides, if we are saved by grace through faith then if any infants are saved they must have faith.
A loving word to Gavin - having watched your recent debate with Trent Horn (& other vids) I am required to conclude - with respect - that you have not engaged how Catholic Magisterium works - bc you’re smarter than me and are more than honest & kind enough to steel-man it if you did. I hope you continue to engage with Catholics, but please know that, from our perspective, likening a vanishingly small (& almost exclusively lay and online) disagreement about fallible prudential judgements as to matters of what the Church calls “matters of discipline and temporal governance” to a large swath of protestants being just so off (but/and so terribly “internally” divided) on something that Sacred Scripture and the Church does and has always infallibly taught to be Regenerative and Sacramental can sound like bad faith - which I don’t think it is.
![โอ้เธอช่าง... - บี้เดอะสกา ft. ต๋อง เทวัญ (Prod. by ป๋าเพชร) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zbWhiLFmVL0/mqdefault.jpg)
I am a huge fan of both these men. As a patron of both their channels, I have been able to watch this twice already. It was a thrill to see them together having a respectful, intelligent, and friendly discussion, which is sadly so rare these days. It is encouraging to see baptism taken with the seriousness it deserves. In my experience, many people are baptized only when required to for church membership. Austin did a great job leading the discussion. I look forward to Part 2.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
Adult Baptism is the Biblical Baptism.
- Lord and Peter always preached First Believe, Repent and then second Baptise =
Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:41
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
So as you can see First is Repentance and then Baptism. And babies can't do both of those
- second reason= there is not one example is baby getting baptized (little children getting baptized yes not infant)
- third reason - babies born to Christians are Holy from the time they are born,
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
@mynameis......23
Does baptismal regeneration actually effect a person's faith? Is it more a matter of when a person is saved or if the person is saved?
No one has truly believed the Gospel otherwise the XTIAN world would be a lot safer. Imagine people whose conscience tells them they believe but the instant they unconsciously commit a sin show they lied prior. God cannot be fooled so God gave baptism as a GIFT.
As a Presbyterian, I’ve never been more conflicted watching a video in my life
getting hit from both sides
Presbyterian is the correct position
baptism saves, but only the elect
Sadly missing is a theological distinction between Spirit baptism and water baptism if you do not make those distinctions the debate gets confusing. The Bible teaches both
@@genol.depello7274 the error of Baptists is separating the 2, as if the Spirit cannot/does not work through objective means...
it's a byproduct of the revivalism and emotionalism of the Great Awakenings
@@genol.depello7274 lol so true. That is why we Reformed describe the distinction between spirit baptism and water baptism while maintaining the sacramental union of the two (one baptism)
For me, this is the gift of protestantism. We can have gracious debates over something as fundamental as baptism without anathametizing the other side.
I would say this is an exception rather than a norm. And if everyone had the same open spirit, it is possible among all.
@@jdlee1972 yes, if it is to be impossible for us to have doctrinal unity, let us then at least be of the same spirit of love and charity
@@he7230 that I think is the least we can do. Mankind has already tried killing the opposing side off. It didnt work. We also know voting and bipartisanship fails at some point.
Isn't this a weakness?
I mean, couldn't you say also "this is the gift of Protestantism. We can have gracious debates over something as fundamental as the divinity of Christ without anathemizing each other" ?
I think we can discuss with civility but it isn't a good thing to not use anathema when necessary.
That's why I'm Catholic.
Ok, except that no protestant denies the divinity of Christ. Also it's pretty clear that both infant baptism and credobaptism was practised in the early church.
Having had a front row seat to this, I think everyone is really going to enjoy it and be filled with anticipation for part 2 on baptismal regeneration! Grateful to get to be a part of these
the question is, will we get more comments about your hair or baptism?
@@TruthUnites 😂 only time will tell I suppose. This is what happens when you let that unruly moderator on your channel…
Austin, which side is closer to you? Baptising infants or not?
@@TruthUnites The Word “Baptize”:
Based on Luke 3:16, and John 1:33, and Acts 11:15-16, the most important thing about the word "baptize" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water. The Holy Spirit is the master teacher promised to New Covenant believers in Jeremiah 31:34, and John 14:26, and is found fulfilled in Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27. Unfortunately, many modern Christians see water when they read the word "baptize" in the text. Based on the above, what is the one baptism of our faith found in the passage below? How many times is the word "Spirit" found in the passage, and how many times is the word "water" found in the passage?
Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
@@TruthUnites Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
I was a huge fan of the fact that Jordan B.Cooper had brought up that baptism is the new circumcision and that circumcision is cutting off the flesh and baptism is cutting off the sin from our lives. And how circumcision attempts to do what baptism does. Which is what Christ talks about in regards to the Mosaic law saying that he did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. I love that! You guys are awesome!
glad you enjoyed!
And infants were circumcised.
The problem with this analogy is that only male infants were circumcised...
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
Yes, a circumcision of the spirit, which I would say is related to being born again into new life and receiving the Spirit.
I was a baptist for a decade and I had spent a long time studying theology as a layman but I had never spent much time thinking or reading about the sacraments. When I realized this I began studying them and within a year I was a confessional Lutheran. All of the holes in my theology and soteriology were plugged by the sacraments and I honestly found the arguments for my old baptist position shallow and counter biblical.
Funny how watching this video, I thought the Baptist minister was the one who made the more compelling argument. Hence why this and many other topics aren't likely to be solved this side of eternity.
@@BM-si2ei I thought the opposite. I was a Baptist too, now Lutheran. Studying Scripture and church history lead me Lutherism.
Now I can affirm what the apostle Paul says, “Believe in the Lord and you will be saved, you and your household” Acts 16:31.
@@Solideogloria00 different strokes, it seems.
@@BM-si2eiAdult Baptism is the Biblical Baptism.
- Lord and Peter always preached First Believe, Repent and then second Baptise =
Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:41
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
So as you can see First is Repentance and then Baptism. And babies can't do both of those
- second reason= there is not one example is baby getting baptized (little children getting baptized yes not infant)
- third reason - babies born to Christians are Holy from the time they are born,
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
@@Solideogloria00 Why Lutheran and not Presbyterian nor Anglican?
Very much looking forward to this. Two of the most committed, yet collegial, Christian men on the TH-cams.
Thanks a lot Marcus! Hope you enjoy!
A little push back from a Catholic to the point made Dr. Cooper: The disagreements we have are over discipline, not doctrine or dogma. The level of disagreements are different that what we see play out in the protestant traditions.
On a positive side, love this convo and can't wait to hear the next two videos. I've never thought about Baptism so much in my life! Also, Because of your videos Gavin, I find myself defending protestants a lot more when Catholics say none of them pay attention to Church History!
Thanks Jacque, that is so great to hear, and thanks for defending us a bit!
It appears to me that Roman Catholic discipline stems from their interpretation of doctrine.
Hey Jacque! I’d disagree with that view of the Roman church. Thomists and Jesuits, for example, have had sharp disagreements over the doctrine of providence and predestination. Scotus and his followers parse divine simplicity differently than Aquinas. Theologians in Rome disagree over whether sola gratia is true, and should instead be described as “prima gratia”.
@@anglicanaesthetics As Catholics we have no problem with such doctrinal disagreements as long as it doesn't concern something that has already been definitively settled by a council or a pope. The disagreement between Thomists and Jesuits for example is totally legitimate, because the Church never settled which of the two positions is right. What a Catholic cannot do however is to disagree on something already settled, like the Immaculate Conception for example. If a Catholic deliberately disagrees on that, he ceases to be Catholic.
@@vituzui9070 Exactly. As a Thomist I amen this.
I find this style of “debate” far more interesting than the hyper passive aggressive style that people like James White prefer to do. It feels less like I’m being forced to take a side and more sitting around a coffee table enjoying theology as a heir to Hus & Luther.
I can't listen to JW. I have tried. I need the people o listen to to be prepared to change if shown to be wrong. And to be humble
@@ProfYaffle James white admits when he is wrong.
James white is NOT aggressive.
@@koriclaypool9548 great. I am prepared to believe I have misjudged him. I occasionally try to listen to him in case i find him listentoable after all. I'm expect he couldn't care less about my opinion, anyway 🙂 I'm pleased if you can learn from him
@@koriclaypool9548 link to James White admitting he is wrong?
Who gave Austin permission to cut his hair? Now he'll lose all his strength.
Conviction? 1 Cor 11. 😂
As a presbyterian I found this discussion to be fruitful. I thank God for Dr. Jordan Cooper and Dr. Gavin Ortlund. Although in disagreement on a doctrine yet there was set before us a clear example of unity in the faith. We can all see and learn in the church an example of a debate that promotes faith, love, hope, and unity rather than discord, division, and strife. Excellent job brothers.
Thanks for this one Dr Cooper and Dr Ortlund. Great to see you Austin! Was a very informative conversation.
- a fellow Catholic.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
@@mynameis......23 I feel like he means Catholic as in “the universal church” and not Roman Catholic.
@@mynameis......23In the context you present if it is quoted correctly he could mean. Apart from or in addition to...blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep his commandments. He never condemns anyone or Mary who indeed is very blessed. I am not saying she was perfect tho. She was a human.
Also he does not compare Mary to believers. Jesus had not died and risen yet and therefore no one believed in the sense the writer means. None had the holy spirit but Jesus. Mary knew the most of Jesus mission and who he was. God told her specifically. She was a believer and sincerely blessed.
Dr. Ortlund and Dr. Cooper will engage in discussion? This is epic!
My boyfriend and I watched this together--he's Catholic and I attend a church that is from the Restoration movement, so we were agreeing and disagreeing with different people throughout. Very interesting and not agressive, which was nice.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I’m not attacking your boyfriend, I just want to warn you about not falling to the Marian dogmas of the Catholic Church.
Amazing discussion! Both sides were honest with the messiness of the early church doctrine. It’s too often you hear “everyone believed X” and Dr Ortlund does well to point out there does seem to be this third view in the early church of credo baptismal regeneration. For what it’s worth I tend toward Dr Coopers position and I think that once the early church “dealt” with the problem of post baptismal sin, the path was clear for infant baptism to become the normal and established position.
thanks for the comments and glad you enjoyed!
So excited for this as fans of both of you all! Sounds like Gavin is upping his beard game in preperation!
Gavin has long way to go on his beard game.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
The old presumption argument, “I’m baptized so I’m good” can be made about Cred-Baptist “ I’ve made a decision and went to the altar.” How many nominal Baptists I’ve seen who think that a one-time commitment is all that it takes!
I'm really excited about this! It's great when 2 independent youtube channels that I enjoy find each other and share an edifying conversation. It's quite miraculous!
hope you enjoy!
@@TruthUnites Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
It's so refreshing to hear and see dialogue instead of argument on doctrine that divides. Well done.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
God be praised for these conversations
Amen!
Austin & Jordan & Gavin - Trifecta!! Enjoying this
I hope that through this conversation people can see the beauty and joy that is with infant baptism. It directs our minds and hearts to God who loves us.
What about babies that die during child birth? Do they not go to heaven? What about miscarriages?
@Dee-nonamnamrson8718 That is an incredible evil and sadness of this world and Dr. Cooper acknowledged exceptions regarding salvation such as the one you describe, though we can't know for certain everything that God wills, we trust in Him.
With respect to Luther's dictum--who was Baptized as an infant--he means to call to remembrance, not the experience of being Baptized, but what Christ Jesus has worked through it according to the promise of his Word.
Incidentally, I was an adult covert and can remember in both senses, but, of the two, the benefits of Baptism outweigh whether or not I will recall its administration in the future.
Overall, this was a wonderful conversation. I look forward to Parts II and III.
Glad you enjoyed! I think you are correct in terms of Luther's intentions, though I would still maintain the point I was trying to make -- that conscious memory of your baptism is a practical benefit unto the larger "use" of baptism.
I really enjoy this discussion. Thanks Dr. Gavin for sharing a lot of practical views on how we see baptism, ecclesiology, and how people are related to the Church. I also enjoy how Dr. Cooper provides so many thought-provoking points. Austin also did a super great job for hosting this discussion very smoothly. I do pray that God will use all of you even more mightily to win more souls for Christ and provoke the brotherly love among the Christians. God bless you!
Dr. Ortlund brining in a Baptist beard. Never give up.
Busy studying this topic for myself now. As a future father, and perhaps future minister of the gospel, I really feel the weight of it. One thing that has come out of this study for me is a deeper appreciation of my dependence upon God’s grace to understand Scripture rightly. These discussions should foster humility, gratitude, and patience in us all
Andre’ Kershaw, 😊you (as you know) are the head of your household. Study it out in your heart and do what you believe God tells you to do and then have Faith in the decision! God knows your heart! Trust Him! Remember, He knows where we “are” spiritually in each season of our life. We are not going to ‘get in trouble’ with God if we were to make a mistake in deciding whether we suppose to baptize our babies or not when He knows you labored over it in prayer and scripture! Training up our babies and children in the Gospel is a lot of work and dedication! And just think, your baby may grow up and your son and daughter may decide to get baptized again! And that decision will be between them and God. My dad baptized me in the Mormon faith. I left that faith when I was 33 yrs old. I love my dad and he did his very best and believed he should and was a Mormon priest. I had a Believers baptism in 2002 in another denomination. He was there and witnessed that Baptism. I often wonder what God did in his heart as he witnessed that baptism. ❤ God is with you Andre’. Blessings and Congratulations! 😊
@@elizabethking5523 we should DO what Scripture says, not what we BELIEVE/THINK He is saying to us.
“Lean not on thy own understanding”
Yes , the truth is all we should desire and I know Jesus will lead us into all truth. This does carry a weight to it
@elizabethking5523 you weren't rebaptized because mormon baptism isn't valid...
This will be remarkable. God bless both of you. Congratulations on transcending denominational shackles and deciding to talk.
Thank you! It was a great conversation and I admire Dr. Cooper very much.
@@TruthUnites Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
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Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
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We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
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There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
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Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
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The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
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Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
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Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
great discussion y’all! kind, wise, and godly people being generous to each other while holding firm in their convictions.
look forward to part II and III.
glad you enjoyed!
I'm a bit late watching this, I have a backlog of videos to watch, but thankful that y'all got together to discuss. I've learned a lot about church history from both Drs. Ortlund and Cooper so it's exciting to watch this discussion. I hope y'all do another one soon, perhaps on the Eucharist.
Thanks Wes! Glad you enjoyed.
YES!!!!!I have been impatiently looking for and waiting for this since your first announcement!
Whatever else you may cover, I hope you both go thoroughly over all the scriptures that clearly do not tie salvation with baptism.
I've listened to a lot of Jordan's videos about baptism, and they are hardly ever mentioned.
That has been the biggest deterrent from me believing in baptismal regeneration, no matter how convincing it is otherwise.
Even Catholics seem more generous in their view on baptismal regeneration by calling one way to be saved a baptism of desire.
Thank you SO much for doing this!!
I hope you and your family had an awesome vacation, Dr. Ortland and you won't be needing another one after this debate!
I will be praying that the Holy Spirit will be leading both of you to the truth, as well as a willingness to accept it.
I am also desperate for clarity on this issue!
God bless!
Thanks so much, and so glad you're excited for the video! Just so you're not disappointed, questions of baptismal regeneration are really coming up in the next video. This one is more on infant baptism. But we will cover that, and hope to address your comments to some extent then! :)
Thank you, Dr. Ortland!
I look forward to that as well, and appreciate you clarifying that in advance!
I don't think Lutherans would generally reject language of a baptism of desire. Luther himself used similar language.
I probably should have articulated that a lot better!
It is less about their official doctrine and more about how they word it informally in all the You tube videos I've watched, in comparison to how the Catholics will state things.
Lutherans strongly emphasize that the normative way a person is saved is through baptism, but seldom gives more than a brief nod to Baptism of Desire.
The Catholic theologians/apologists I've listened to agree with that, but will emphasize Baptism of Desire more as a legitimate way of being saved.
The Lutherans I've listened to seem to only begrudgingly acquiesce to that, while the Catholics seem to be more comfortable and enthusiastic about that category.
Sorry for the confusion!
I personally think this isn't a very good argument because of the fact that there's 10 texts that positively tie salvation to baptism. So the texts that don't mention baptism do not change the ones that do, therefore we cannot affirm against the meaning of those texts
I am challenged and encouraged by both of these men! Dr.Cooper here say's numerous times the household baptism's aren't necessary to his view, but never makes a detailed exegetical case for any other scriptural support. The closest I think he got, was in his interpretation of the exodus, but contextually that is not supported, as these people were ALREADY in the covenant. Admire the grace & humility presented by both sides though!
I think it’s more that Lutherans don’t hold to covenant theology in the same way the reformed do, this means that is the less important part. Also they were not under the mosaic covenant yet, but the exodus example is less about covenant more about how Paul uses it as a prefigurement of baptism. So just based off Paul not an assumed covenant theology, we can use it as a proof. Since Paul uses it as a type for baptism there’s no need to consult a covenant theology.
This was such an interesting discussion and I appreciate the gentle spirit in which it took place, even though they weren't able to go as deep into each argument as I have seen in videos that defend only one perspective. I grew up in a credobaptist tradition - infants received a blessing and were not assumed to be accountable until the age of reason, and unbaptized children were considered part of the church community but not voting members. They also taught necessity of baptism beyond symbolism - not using the "regeneration" or "means of grace" language of high church traditions, but teaching that baptism by an ordained minister was necessary for salvation because it was something Jesus commanded (similar to Churches of Christ).
High church Protestantism appeals to me, but infant baptism is the one thing I'm hung up on. From my perspective, the strongest argument for infant baptism is the unanimity of the practice in church history (I acknowledge Ortlund's arguments that this was not the case, but Cooper seems to have valid counterarguments for those cases) while the strongest argument for credobaptism is the strong link between baptism and professions of faith in the New Testament (Cooper makes the case that "faith" need not be limited to an overt profession of faith and could be nascent in an infant, but the household baptism passages use phrases like "accepted his message," "feared God," "came to hear," and "devoted themselves to service" which seem to imply more active responses by adults). The best argument I have heard for liberty in the practice is one that Michael Heiser described (which seems more like the Presbyterian than the Lutheran or Anglican view) - that baptism, like circumcision, grants entrance into the covenant community where the saving word is taught.
If one takes the parallel between baptism and circumcision as evidence for infant baptism in the "household" passages, then one big question I don't see paedobaptists address is what happened with adult household servants - were they baptized independently of their faith, just as Abraham's servants were circumcised? Seemingly not, since the believer Philemon's servant Onesimus was not a Christian until he met Paul. Unbelieving spouses were also not apparently baptized. This doesn't disprove infant baptism - perhaps household baptism was the default but adult family members or servants could "opt out" - but it is a defeater for reading too much into the "whole household" language when the passage doesn't spell out some more obvious exceptions. (I'm also skeptical that "household baptism" means anything beyond just that everyone in the household happened to be converted. There are other examples in the NT of individuals being baptized alone.)
Thank you all so much for taking time to do this! This is so insightful to not just hear the sound of one hand clapping!
Great stuff guys! As with all your videos I will be leaving this on for the next few days on repeat so I can hopefully absorb the knowledge through osmosis.
This is just a wonderful discussion. God bless these two pastors/theologians. I’m a ( ) and love hearing from the other view in this kind of spirit of Christian love. Thank you for moderating it in Christian love as well.
Dr. Ortlund quoted Luther to a Lutheran in his last comment. Haha!
Dr. Cooper said when Lutherans debate, they just toss conflicting Luther quotes at each other, so maybe Dr. Ortlund just wanted Dr. Cooper to feel at home on his channel.
Luther doesn't necessarily conflict on this topic tho, I think that's a massive exaggeration
Haha
as someone who is credo baptist ans believes in baptismal regeneration, I really enjoyed this. definitely some history homework to be done!
This discussion was handled in a godly way. Both men carefully listened to one another and answered respectfully, each fully convinced in his own mind. It enabled me to listen without getting internally defensive or getting tribal.
Regeneration is really the first step in answering the infant question. If baptism is an act of obedience, then don’t baptize infants. If baptism is an act of God that delivers the grace and benefits of Christ and joins one to Christ, then baptize infants.
I appreciate that Dr. Ortlund doesn’t resort to the caricature that baptized children who fall away disprove the practice. To be consistent, anyone who ever makes a profession of faith who later falls away would have to also disprove that professions of faith save. Any falling away could be cited to disprove any soteriology.
Neither professions of faith nor baptism saves. Accepting the gift of Jesus Christ saves. Both of the other two things are symbols of this acceptance of God's gift by obedience to his commands.
@@bnjmnwst how do you accept the gift? State silently you have done so? Decide to assent to it?
@@AmillennialMillenial Decide. Yes. It's between you and God, and He knows the heart.
@@bnjmnwst so then your decision saves?
@AmillennialMillenial Jesus saves. The gift accepted is salvation.
I was not born into the faith but guided there by god. I'm glad it was this way.
as an 18 year old who is still searching for a theological home, this will be very helpful; super excited!
hope it was helpful!
@@TruthUnites it surely was; coming from a restorationist upbringing (stone-campbell movement), I could sympathize with both sides, and I was constantly intrigued after each statement. Great job
@@secundemscripturas992 My dad was raised in the Stone-Campbell movement; ultimately he found his way to the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS), which was where I was raised. Not knowing much about the Stone-Campbell movement growing up aside from bits and pieces my dad would tell me, I wondered how he’d made the jump to Lutheranism rather than something which to sounded closer like Baptist churches (based on his limited description of his background and what I knew of some Baptists, at least). When I learned that Stone-Campbell churches believe in baptismal regeneration, it made a lot of things click. (I’ve since migrated to the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) for largely (but not completely) unrelated reasons.)
@@augustinian2018 why'd you end up going with the ACNA over the LCMS
@@secundemscripturas992 It’s was hard to keep this concise-this got longer than I intended. Before I say anything, I want to be clear that I believe the LCMS has wonderful people in it-they’re doing God’s work. Lutherans and Anglicans are actually very close theologically. Both traditions are essentially Evangelical/Reformed Catholicism in the sense that they hold the first four ecumenical councils of the early church and its three ecumenical creeds to be the best elucidations of the Trinity and the person of Christ (and the Holy Spirit) drawn from scripture-they hold scripture alone to be infallible and the highest authority in the church. Both also don’t cause one to flinch when reaching the apostolic fathers-the works of the church fathers written between ~70 AD and 150 AD (e.g. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, and Polycarp of Smyrna)-an advantage they have over most Protestant traditions (Ignatius, who likely wrote around ~110 AD (~15 years after John completed his gospel) and is well-reputed to have known John personally, is definitely worth a read).
Yet they do tend to think very differently and do theology quite differently from each other. In a nutshell, Lutherans will try to give you the correct answer to a question, even if their answer strains credibility (though I believe Lutherans are less guilty of this than strict Calvinists-that is my perception, at least). Anglicans will more readily admit when they don’t know something-at least that they do not know something precisely-and tend to be more comfortable/content with uncertainty. To be a confessional Lutheran, you have to grant certain principles of biblical hermeneutics and epistemology in order to see how the claims of their confessional standards (the Book of Concord) follow from scripture. Anglicanism is much more modest in its truth claims-one can be Arminian, Calvinist (to a degree), or Lutheran in one’s theological leanings and still be an Anglican in good standing. Lutheran theology shines most when it’s approached as the best explanation of the data rather than the only legitimate explanation of the data-the latter is something Anglicanism allows for, and it also allows for a greater degree of theological growth if you happen to change your mind over time.
The best short book on Lutheranism I know of to recommend to illustrate the differences (if you’re remotely interested) is Gene Edward Veith’s The Spirituality of the Cross and on Anglicanism is Thomas McKenzie’s The Anglican Way. Beyond that, the essence of Lutheranism is found in the Book of Concord and the Lutheran hymnody (I still use the LCMS’s 2006 Lutheran Service Book for its hymns) and the essence of Anglicanism is found in the Book of Common Prayer (I’ve got copies of the 1662 edition, which is still confessionally binding on Anglicans, in addition to the ACNA’s 2019 edition, which is also wonderful). There’s ultimately just a marked closed mindedness/emotionalism in Confessional Lutheranism that I simply haven’t found in Anglicanism. The best way to illustrate it charitably would be to compare and contrast two popular theologians/philosophers in each tradition. I’d recommend Soren Kierkegaard’s Fear and Trembling or The Sickness unto Death for the Lutheran take on the life of the mind, as opposed to C.S. Lewis’s Miracles or Mere Christianity for how it’s done by Anglicans (I’m also a huge fan of N.T. Wright, who’s also written a tremendous number of useful books).
I really enjoyed the debate, a beautiful respectful one that is not much familier to us these days, i'm an egyptian christian and I really enjoy watching the theological debates on many gospel issues like this one....By the way the reference which dr.Ortlund mention "Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology, and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries." written by Prof. Everett Ferguson is now translated into arabic and I finally bought it and I find it an important source for the Baptism issue during the church fathers period.................I would like to thank the Gospel simplicity channel for offering the chance to have the awareness of the theological and ecclesiological issues
As a catholic, I feel like my view go more in line with the lutheran guy regarding baptism but nonetheless this was a awesome dialogue.
glad you enjoyed!
My three favourite Christian TH-camrs in one place! ❤️ it! Is it strange that I am so excited for these debates???!!! 😁
I absolutely love all of this. I especially benefitted from the final portion about parenting. Dr. Ortlund, please do a video on parenting! Would love to hear your thoughts on the gentle parenting thing, not just the worst forms of it but especially those of the Christian perspective that have come to such practices. People like the perspective of Flourishing Homes and Families. I think you are such a faithful teacher and I think I would really benefit from you addressing this area.
Is Gavin going to have a beard in time for this interview? We shall have to wait to find out.
Haha. I did my best. But Dr. Cooper puts me to shame in that regard.
@@TruthUnites Was having a beard a requirement to participate in this discussion? haha
Austin, thanks for this video. Very informative. This is how Christians should talk to each other. Well done!
Looking forward to parts 2 and 3!
Such great content. So charitable. Very well done 👍
One piece of feedback - the "setting the stage/framework" took up the first 40 minutes of this video -which I think made sense for the initial video. I think that 40 minutes can largely set the stage for the second and we won't need another 40 minute intro - maybe 5-10 at the most.
thanks for the feedback!
I had that in my notes for next time! I completely agree. When outlining this conversation, I underestimated the difference in the length it takes to get responses when hosting with two guests. Thanks for the feedback!
So enjoyable to listen to an intelligent and polite discussion. Thank you guys.
EXCELLENT discussion. Looking forward to the rest, like everyone else!
Great discussion, but as noted around 58:30, it would have been more prudent to have this question be the second topic of debate, and the first topic be on baptismal regeneration. As Dr. Cooper mentions, the confessional Lutheran understanding of infant baptism requires that the sacrament of baptism is water and the Word of God, with faith that the Word of God is true in that "baptism now saves you," and the words of the Apostles "repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins." Thank you for the discussion and debate done in gentleness and respect.
I was baptised on November 2, 1968, when I was a few weeks old. And no man, angel or demon has the power of making my baptism unvalid or inferior in any sense.
Amen 🙏
Same here!
That's a problem for Baptists....they have to claim 95% of all Christians through history had invalid baptisms. A big reason why baptistic theology is so divisive.
@@ralphdavis1343 amen
@@holmavik6756
Jesus is the one who will decide whether a baptism is valid or not.
The probability of Jesus accepting the infant baptism is high.
1. Jesus gave authority to his Apostles to bind and to loose
2. When the disciples picked corn on the Sabbath day, Jesus defended his disciples.
3. Jesus said, let the children come to me. Jesus blessed them too.
Jesus came to save. He came to deliver us from the clutches of the devil.
At the time of birth, everyone belongs to the devil because of the original sin. So, everyone must be delivered at any opportunity.
Looking at these instances, Jesus will side with those favouring infant baptism against those who refuse baptism to children and infants from receiving baptism.
Those who are for baptizing infants have no hurdles even if they do it because there is still the sacrament of confirmation of baptism or the laying of the hands by the Bishop.
really fruitful, thought provoking discussion - thanks!
Hey Gavin! As an Anglican I’d approach the question a bit differently, as I’d disagree that baptisms are valid in the absence of the faith of the parents/guardians responsible for the child. But I think we can give a non-arbitrary reason as to why the faith of the parents/guardians suffices for the child:
Christ is the Head of the family, and so its representative. He assumes responsibility for his members. Likewise, parents are representative of and responsible for their children. Jonathan Edwards spoke of infant baptism as the parents offering up their children as “members or parts of themselves.” That is, God sees the children as encompassed within the parents’/guardians’ faith because they have a familial union with their children, such that their children participate in the benefits and consequences of their actions. This is where the analogy of circumcision is relevant-all though not one-to-one correspondent-to baptism. Why did fathers circumcise their children as opposed to other children? Because of the familial union which rendered those children as, in some way, members of themselves (I.e Levi paid tribute to Melchizedek through Abraham).
thanks for sharing your perspective! So what is the basis for this particular construal of familial union? I'm sure you're aware people have made the same appeal to include grandchildren as well as children....
@@TruthUnites Good question! It seems to be the way family structures operate through Scripture. For example, take the Passover; the responsible head of the family paints blood over the door posts, and that suffices for the first born. So that said, I actually don’t think it’s wholly illegitimate for Grandparents to baptize grand children. However, it is less fitting for Grandparents to do so unless they are the guardians of that grandchild for the same reason: the guardians in particular stand as the head and thus representative of their families. So the basis lies in the assumption of representative responsibility; who is it who is accountable for the child? That accountability includes the child in the moral sphere of action of the child’s guardian (hence why I’d say an adopted child, or a grandparent baptizing their grandchild having adopted him or her, is legitimate). The parents’ profession of faith sums up the voice of their child, because of the position of representative responsibility they have for the child. They speak for the child in this area as they do in others, God viewing the family as a joined unit-with the responsible guardians (typically the parents) having taken the children as members of the organic unit of which they head up. That seems to make sense of why Paul can say that the children of believers are not unclean, but in fact are holy.
@@anglicanaesthetics thanks for sharing this; I still have my worry about arbitrariness in terms of where the boundaries are drawn. For instance, everyone in the house (slaves, other relatives, etc.) would be saved from the blood on the door in the Passover meal. To me, it seems very tricky to determine where we draw the boundaries of "representative responsibility."
@@TruthUnites yes, good points-so there are a couple things to say here.
Even if the boundary were difficult to discern exactly where it stops, we can say some definite things about who is included in the boundary and who isn’t. For example, I’m the head of my family as a man and husband; but I’m not *your* head, so I’m not representative of you. And certainly when my wife and I have children, a child would be someone I’d be representative of and responsible for. They would be extensions of my household. So we can say some things about who would be in and who wouldn’t, making it not entirely arbitrary.
Now, what of the Passover? I think this is a really good example! And for that reason, I think a household could be covenantally included through the faith of the head; the difference, of course, is that the covenant requires personal faith for those capable of it. Once someone can answer for themselves, they must; so it they don’t profess faith as capable people, then they reject the covenantal inclusion that could have been theirs. That would apply to slaves and relatives under a household, represented by someone, I think. But even if I were wrong about that, the main argument for infant baptism involves the fact that infants are members of the parents, I.e that parents are representatively responsible for infants. So long as we can draw the boundary *somewhere* (and per my first point, I think we can-i am not your head, for example, and thus representative of you), then it’s not entirely arbitrary. So long as we can say something about a representative speaking for their family/household, and identify those who would certainly be included (infants) and those not (you with respect to me), we can say that the boundary starts to become clearer the further you move from familial union.
@@anglicanaesthetics interesting comments. I have a different perspective on this but I appreciate you sharing your thoughts!
I am deeply grateful for this conversation between the two of you. But, I think it would be massively helpful to have the Presbyterian position included as well, since it seems to me to be the middle ground between your two views.
Great job on the recent capturing Christianity debate on the papacy and the n.t.
Thanks a lot! Glad you enjoyed it.
Late to the party on this one! I have come to a credobaptist position as an adult, but I want to caution those who hold this view to be careful not to dismiss infant baptist position too flippantly. I was raised Anglican in a congration with a similar view to the Presbyterians and baptised as an infant and my first exposure to believer's baptism was when I was about ten or so. I was attending a children's program at another church and one of the teachers told me that infant baptism was wrong. This deeply upset me and continued to do so until I was in graduate school.
This was such a wonderfull discussion and I can't wait to see the next part (luckily I don't need to literally wait..)
I come from a country where "everybody" was lutheran in my childhood. In former generations people needed to be members of church to get married etc. I see a lot of bad fruit: general belief in my childhood was (and still is) that if you are baptized as a baby and "a good person", you are good to go to heaven if such a place happens to exist. Practically people were atheists (nominal christians) and most attend to church on christmas maybe because of the beautiful feeling and that's about it. Godparents don't believe in God (or maybe they believe that there can be some kind of a higher power that they don't want to think about) and no-one is guiding that baptized infant into knowing God. Godparents are there to give presents/money for birthdays and christmas. Teens attend to a camp before confirmation and learn to smoke, drink and get layed there.. many of my friends have told that it was the final point of becoming an atheist. They want to take part in confirmation to get money as present afterwards. To be a lutheran priest you need to study theology in our capitals university and there is even a saying of someone getting started in spirit and finnished in uni.. it is most definetly not a place where theory and faith can coexist, it's the ultimate place for atheistic affirmation and takes christianity merely as an interesting and maybe proffitable human culture. Most priests and other workers in church are practically atheists that see some cultural value in christianity.
It is also culturally very unacceptable to talk about faith or religion over here. Somehow the lutheran take on religion is (around here) that everything you need is given to you in baptizm as a baby and any works (including actual faith as adult or following Jesus as your Lord in your life) are simply unnecessary and thus faith is an extremely personal and private thing not to be discussed about. I think nothing is as taboo around here as christian faith.
People who grew up as nominal lutherans never got to know their religion and now many children of actual atheists don't see the value in cultural christianity any more and they leave the church. People know nearly nothing about christian theology and faith and they have grown extremely allergic to it. The shrinking lutheran church has sold all it's values in attempt to keep some members in. Most of the remaining members see it as a handy construct to collect more money and produce nice services as crafting clubs for kids etc. Sort of r.i.p. Jesus in the church-church.
We have next to none catholic or orthodox christians here so lutheran church is as "high church" as it gets. I think it is somewhat distorted compared to the original lutheran theology.
It has been really difficult for me to see anything good in pedobaptizm seen the results in my country and as well it's difficult to understand the theology behind it given the nature of theologians that I'm familiar with in my language. Getting more familiar listening to english and finding this kind of content in youtube is really really helpful. Now to the next part :)
HIPPOLYTUS
“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).
JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).
ORIGEN
“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
IRENAEUS
“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
AUGUSTINE
“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).
“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
Almost all the early church fathers believed in infant baptism and practiced it.
Amen!
Almost 200 years after Jesus' death and resurrection. Why should we believe they were 100% right?
@oskarm646 The bible also described baptizing entire families. Also from a Jewish perspective you entered God's covenant as an infant thru circumcision. It wouldn't make sense that in the new testiment that you could'nt enter as an infant in God's new covenant. The new testament is always better not worse. Baptism replaced circumcision.
44:30 never asked myself how a conversion baptism to judaism would be made, when i first heard this i did not believed it but after searching it, yeah, infants of converts to judaism would also have been baptised. This means that this would have been the practice that jewish converts to christianity would employ as well. This changes everything. Thank you Jordan Cooper, i think you just ended a theological dilemma that i had for the last 9 months
Infant baptism poses no problem because there is still the sacrament of confirmation of baptism or laying of the hands that we read in Acts.
When we are born, we belong to Satan due to the original sin. And so, we must deliver the infants and children from the clutches of the Satan.
Jesus died for all including all those who have no capacity to profess their faith. These category of people too dies. And if we really love them, we should be fighting for them instead of leaving them to the devil for grab.
The validity of baptism will be decided by God but it is our duty to intercede for one another.
I like the idea of both. The first one is to unite with the family related metaphorically mystical the second when one wants to join the church as an adult.
"A lot of [-] the top Patristic Scholars on Baptism end up Credobaptists plus Baptismal Regeneration."
Okay, that makes me feel a lot better. It's nice to know I'm not alone. 😅
Would love to get a list of those Scholars if at all possible.
I mention some at the end of part 2 of our second conversation. Everett Ferguson, George Beasley-Murray, and David Wright (sort of) are examples. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the explanation on the Childrens Faith. What baffles me is why men in the church get to judge children on whether or not "they are ready" to be baptised?? These are Gods children, when Gods children want to follow Jesus, you baptise them!
Im glad my mom and dad baptized me when i was 3 in the greek orthodox church ☦️ and they told me about Jesus and marry that Jesus is god and i believed in it right away and i am glad to be in a Christian ✝️ family.thank u god for my family and generations family that no u and u no us before we were born.❤
I like how the CCCC allows discretion on this, since baptism isn't "a hill to die on."
Great point from Dr. Cooper on the new covenant being broader
Very excited for this.
Jordan cooper,what a view.Amazing
Hey Dr. Ortlund, awesome conversation! Quick question, what would you say of the argument that God grants grace and spiritual blessings to individuals on behalf of those who put their faith in him? For example, in Mark 2, Jesus forgives the sins of the paralytic because he sees the faith of those who brought him into the house. Therefore, wouldn't this provide some evidence that God will honour the baptism of an infant on account of their parents faith in him?
Thanks! It's not clear to me that the paralytic is not included in the people in whom Jesus sees faith in Mark 2. Also, note he rises when Jesus tells him (verse 12). Just my two cents.
@@TruthUnitesI don’t see how that isn’t a perfect paradigm for baptism. Baptism as a transformative work of Christ. One can be brought in faith by his representatives and he is healed and rises up (is raised in faith) and goes on his own, BUT ONLY BECAUSE JESUS HEALED HIM AND COMMANDED HIM.
Dr. Ortlund, the facial hair looked good on you, God bless and thanks for the discussion.
Pastor Ortlund,
"narrative compression" - excellent succinct phrase regarding historical narrative in Acts. I think it applies to Acts 2:38 also.
Your comment on Tertullian was excellent also, seems like infant baptism had just recently started, rather than apostolic tradition.
Enjoyed this very much; and I appreciate Jordan Cooper's demeanor also.
Looking forward to the discussion on "baptismal regeneration"
so glad you enjoyed it, thanks for watching!
btw, that smooth organ intro was wayyy too nice
My personal favorite part of the video
My - limited - understanding is that as a Sacrament which God is bound to, Holy Baptism confers the gift of the Holy Spirit on whoever receives it. How he or she responds to that gift is an exercise of their free will. (The Sacrament of Confirmation gives the person the opportunity to make a positive response to that gift, and to receive again the Holy Spirit).
On the other hand, the Ordinance of Believer's Baptism is simply regarded as a public profession of faith. This is a fundamental difference because the first is about God's action, the second about the believer's action.
I'm going to listen now to part 2, which will probably address my question of " being born again." How does being born again happen...with baptism or faith alone and by the Spirit's indwelling because He was invited in to guide and change one's life?
The wrong question is being asked…the right question is “is infant baptism valid”. It’s a very easy answer. The early Christians, closest to the apostles, all believed in infant baptism. They know best, so when the Bible is silent or can be interpreted different ways, we should trust the traditions of the early church. Yes infant baptism is valid, and baptism is necessary for salvation (except in rare circumstances).
Bill, just for fun, go into church fathers and find who the first named person who was clearly infant baptized? Whereas every church father in 2nd and 3rd that we know about were credo baptized. Ephraem the Syrian, Basil of Caeserea, Greogory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianus, John Chrysotosm, Ambrose, Jerome, Rufinus, Paulinus of Nola, and Aigustine. Along with Ambrose's brothers Satyris, Gregory of Nazianzus father Gregory, sister Gorgina and brother Caesarius, Jerome's froends Heliodoris and Rufius, Paulinus of Nola's brother and Rufinus of Aquileia.
Baptism is not nessicary for salvation. To say so fundamentally upends the nature of our relationship with God and it also redefined grace and faith. Baptism is a sign of salvation, an act of obedience. It can only be understood this way in light of the biblical macro narrative, which is that grace through faith saves
At 51:40 Dr. Ortlund says he doesn't think anyone got circumcised because of mom and dad in the OT. He later goes on to say mom and dad do not have to have a profession of faith before circumcision.
I really really really struggle to see this point of view. Maybe I misunderstand him.. The 8 day old baby didn't bring himself to circumcision. It seems obvious that they were circumcised because of mom and dad. And they did make a profession of faith. The very act of bringing their child to be circumcised was a profession of faith in God's promise.
Briefly, the theological basis for circumcision was not believing parents but lineage to Abraham (Gen. 17:9). Your parents could play a circumstantial role in the happenings, but that is different from the theological basis. Hope this helps.
I believe children can have a basic faith. When very young, they have faith that mother will come when they cry, she will feed them when hungry and will be comforted by her and have their needs met. As fallible humans, we can do these things, how much more our omnipotent heavenly Father can meet the needs on a higher level that a baby can 'understand'.
John the Baptist clearly had faith in the womb...jumping for joy in the presence of the newly conceived Jesus Christ!
@@ralphdavis1343 is every infant equivalent to John the Baptist? Even Jesus said he’s the greatest in the old generation prior to the kingdom
The provision for receiving that promise 1:04:01-1:04:06 that is written in Acts 2:38-39 is repentance and being baptized in Jesus's name, not just repentance and calling, as Dr. Gavin Ortlund stated.
To understand infant baptism in biblical sense goes back to circumcision where an 8 day old male is baptized because it is the covenant of God and Abraham. Then in NT in Acts, a group Pharisees converted to Christianity wanted gentile converts to be circumcized but Paul objected because it is baptism which is the circumcission of heart. A lot of adults were baptized including their households, and when you say household that includes infants even the servants or slaves. As baptism replaces circumcission, all infants are baptized not just baby male infants.
It´s interesting that many people say church history supports infant baptism when it obviously does not. The earliest sources that refer to it are from the 3rd century. But in the mid second century we read:
"And for this [rite] we have learned FROM THE APOSTLES this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may NOT remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the CHILDREN OF CHOICE AND KNOWLEDGE, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe" Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch. 61
So in the earliest patristic source that addresses the question of whether or not it is one´s one choice Justin literally tells us:
a) what he´s going to explain is from the apostles
b) unlike natural birth the new birth in baptism should be based on our own choice
c) in fact, he says, that´s the whole point of baptism
So if we are going by early church history it is a closed case.
There are also adults who have made a superficial profession of faith and were baptized who later realized and admitted they were not genuinely "regenerate" at the time who repeated baptism again later after their hearts were really changed. Many have done this to marry a Christian before they themselves were genuine believers. Some of these never became believers even though they went through the process. Countless people have the testimony that they "grew up in church" and were baptized as infants and again in their youth, and "thought they were Christians" until God really changed their hearts by his Spirit and they truly became "born again" which was evidenced by dramatic and permanent changes in their lives and behavior.
"Cultural" and "familial Christianity" can be a dangerous trap even though many children do become genuine believers at a young age in those situations. Many remain decieved about their salvation their entire lives because of it though.
The examples we see in the Bible, faith always came first, then baptism. We even have an example of dead faith with Simon in Acts 8.
I never believed in infant baptism until I started reading the church fathers, which led me to Lutheran theology. If infants can have a faith, which they can, they can be baptized. Lots of scriptures point to infants believing.
Which parts of the Bible point to infants having faith? (I don't mean kids who can think for themselves I mean literal infants)
Infant baptism is THE best visual representation of the Gospel. How can anyone deprive their congregation of participation in this condensed Bible on display?
Doctrines can go where ever they want. As long as infants are baptised, the gospel lives!
Not saying those who don't do it are anti-christ or anything. I think they act as the perfect reminder to actually gaze at the miracle that is baptism as practised by the descendants of Romans, who thought it normal to put babies on the trash heap. Infant baptism is the best illustration of the turning upside down of the world that has happened since Christ. Thanks for being a nicely behaved reminder of why it's so beautiful!
Who decides? Who decides what a credible profession of faith is?
Jesus
As a parent, I would think that believing parents would want to have their children baptized, especially if those parents are also Jewish and believe in circumcision as an entry into a covenant with God. I'm not saying that's why it happened, but just speculating as a parent that if I believed that baptism would claim my child for the God I believed in, I would want that done as soon as possible in order to protect my children
God Bless the work of your hands Dr. Ortlund- I am in the very awkward position of being a commited Anglican with, nevertheless, Strong Credobaptist leanings- I simply can't see it any other way. If you have any advice for such a confused individual as I it would be warmly recieved.
Something increasingly obvious that brings me great joy: the first whole sale (institutional) reunions with Rome are going to come from churches named for Sola Scriptura (SS) Protestführer Martin Luther (of polygamy and anti-James fame).
In some spots it seems kind of like the discussion hinges on whether or not one can lose their regeneration. Perhaps I misunderstood Dr. Cooper, but it sounded like he said he believes one’s regeneration can be lost. I believe your stance on the finality of regeneration plays a larger role in your stance on infant baptism.
Just an interesting thing to mention. Here in Chile, pentecostalism was founded independent from the United States, in an independent revival, in the Methodist Episcopal Church, so pentecostalism here mostly believed in Pedobaptism, but due to the low theological instruction of pastors with the arrival of American (USA) pentecostalism many Chilean congregations stopped baptizing infants and start being credo baptist, but at the same time the largest pentecostal denominations in Chile continue their methodist ancestry using pedo baptism, even when most of they have no or few knowledge why they do what they do (biblically)
I enjoyed this very much. I guess my only gripe would be that the conversation felt a little clunky trying to keep baptismal regeneration for the next discussion. Discussing who should be baptized prior to engaging together on what baptism does just came off as a little backwards IMO. Not sure you can separate the two concepts. Good discussion none the less.
It's an excellent point! At the same time... I'm not sure we'd ever get through the baptismal regeneration debate to even get on to the infant baptism debate if it came first! (I'm half-joking... sort of...)
1:25:57 but it’s not in the scripture. Please help me. Nothing I see in the scripture would preclude an individual from justification if they were not baptized. In other words, justification does not in anyway hinge on baptism, correct??????
It may be just me but as much as I enjoy listening to Dr. Ortlund his position seems lacking of mystery, beauty, and depth that can be found when pondering the truth of infant baptism. It sort of is putting detail 'on the operating table' for careful labeling and analysis. I think the Lutheran position is much more comfortable with there being things beyond our comprehension though we continue to seek after truth and marvel at God's goodness.
Dr. Ortlunds final thoughts about baptism and taking about his kids was great though, I am thankful for the joy he has found in his position.
Hi Pastor Gavin, could you make a video about what happens to infants and young children that die? I am struggling with finding a unified answer to this question within reformed circles and it has been troubling me
Zack Bliss, do not be troubled!😊 Since I didn’t see an answer from Pastor Gavin, I wanted to let you know that there is a Biblical answer to your question. Look up the story of King David and Bathsheba. Their first baby dies even After much prayer, & fasting. And David declares, he would see his baby in heaven!! ❤ Blessings to you!
Dr. Ortlund is growing some good looking facial hair. I dig.
Nice discussion, but I think about the many, many people that I know who were baptized as infants and have no regard for God as adults. I don't even see how baptism has meaning apart from being a decision made voluntarily.
Plenty of adults were baptized upon conversion and then apostatize....
I'm glad for this, but I'm not sure how one can deny infant faith when it is spoken of both in the Old and New Testament.
Besides, if we are saved by grace through faith then if any infants are saved they must have faith.
I think my hesitation is whether "faith" is the right category, but its not determinative on this issue, it seems to me.
A loving word to Gavin - having watched your recent debate with Trent Horn (& other vids) I am required to conclude - with respect - that you have not engaged how Catholic Magisterium works - bc you’re smarter than me and are more than honest & kind enough to steel-man it if you did. I hope you continue to engage with Catholics, but please know that, from our perspective, likening a vanishingly small (& almost exclusively lay and online) disagreement about fallible prudential judgements as to matters of what the Church calls “matters of discipline and temporal governance” to a large swath of protestants being just so off (but/and so terribly “internally” divided) on something that Sacred Scripture and the Church does and has always infallibly taught to be Regenerative and Sacramental can sound like bad faith - which I don’t think it is.