Narcissist’s Karma: Fantasy and 2 Strategies (Antisocial-defiant vs. Conforming Pseudo-normal)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- In his childhood, the “love” of the narcissist’s mother (or, later in life, father) was conditioned on his/her performance.
In intimate setting, the narcissist’s partners are substitute mothers (maternal figures).
To gain their love, to be rendered lovable, the narcissist feels compelled to perform.
Hence the performative shared fantasy.
Grandiosity gap creates frustration-aggression which is the aim of the shared fantasy as it leads to separation-individuation.
Narcissists: arrested stunted development, age-inappropriateness
Compensatory strategies: antisocial-defiant vs. conforming pseudo-normalcy
Childhood: mimicry, identity formation, separation-individuation (both strategies combined in secure base)
Adolescence: peers, role models, overt rebellion=conformity
Adulthood: life plan, goal attainment, shared fantasy (in lieu of object relations)
Middle age: diffuse mortification, rebellion, anxiety/panic, regression (“midlife crisis”), shared fantasy, impaired mate selection
Senescence (old age): consequences (social isolation, ostracism, incarceration, indigence)
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“A child that is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.”
@@karmarising144African Proverb
can also apply that to his or herself
You just described and clarified the life of my 44 y. o. ex narc to a tee. It was clear he was going through the midlife crisis phase when he did the discard to me. He started spending less and less time with me and acting as if he hated me for the previous three months. After 13 years, it was the first time I had really seen the mask drop. It looked like a complete psychotic event in front of me, unfolding and he wasn't a state of panic and wanted to just run away as he was talking. Sobbing and hyperventilating, and still breaking up with me at the same time. I was caught completely off guard. I will never forget what I saw and I did the proverbial door slam. Nobody will say goodbye to me twice. It's been 4 months no contact and I will never breathe air in his direction again after that horrific event that was meant to finish me off. The joke is on him now.
With a narc it seems to be more about his/her mother .
If my brother was a comment, this would be him. Sad
I grew up with narcissist parents and became narcissistic myself. Then I became a mother. I hadn't planned it and it frustrated me that I had lost my freedom. For years I was unable to love my child. My narcissistic fleas latched unto him and that woke me up to our shared reality. I started to see that the innocence that I had lost and the insecurities I had gained were the product of my environment and upbringing.
One of my top priorities now is to care and love for myself and my child. I want him to be his own person. He needs my guidance and not my correction. It's been quite hard living together all these years as single mom and child. Experiencing a burnout was the pivotal moment leading to my recovery and healing.
Love and support to all of you who are on this (similar) journey. You are deserving of care, attention, time, validation, consideration and so much more. ❤
I'm so happy for u and your child that you got the necessary help . Kiddos to you. It couldn't have been easy.
I wish you and your child all the best. I really hope you are able to break the cycle that seems to be within your family 😊
I commend you for catching it and taking action to change it with ur child. U passed that test of decision now KEEP passing your test it will break the curse. U ARE CELEBRATED 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾🥂❤ U GOT THIS!
If you ever wondered who makes it to the end of your videos its me. All of them. I listen religiously. LOL fascinating topic for me. 🙂
Sometimes very childlike when addressing a situation he will refer to something unconnected
I noticed this deferral as well
Would this be why my ex narc was able to thoroughly enjoy his time with my children? He was a bit shy at first, but over the 4yrs of our relationship, he seemed to find so much joy in teaching my teenage son how to play the guitar. He could sit for hours and listen to my 10yr old daughter tell stories & play tea party with him. He had a immense amount of patience for them. The opposite of course, of how he felt having a brief conversation with me.
How is it so possible for them so swap between the 2 so quickly? One extreme to the other. Example being my ex, DV against me, police called, 2 female officers badly assaulted and then as soon as more officers turned up, he had swapped and was acting like the most normal, level headed, respectful person ever, went outside and tried to talk to the male officers like nothing had happened and he had done nothing wrong, as soon as he realised they was looking at him like he was mental and a complete nut job and he was getting cuffed regardless, switched straight back to being violent and launched at them too. If I hadn’t witnessed it with my own eyes I would never of believed it. The most insane switch I’ve ever seen. I’d lived with him for 4 years and seen him swap and flip flop between the 2 strategies on multiple occasions but there was atleast some sort of pattern I could notice, that night though was something else. It was swapping within minutes, flip flopping between to 2 depending on who he was infront of, women he was just outrageously vile to, the men he tried to come across as the most normal and respectable man in town. Totally bizarre!!
You witnessed the manifestation of his demonic possession and it’s ability to switch roles effortlessly. They are adept at manipulation, deception and gaslighting hence one is advised to run when you recognise something off about their behaviour.
When you know, you go and when you see, you flee.
Tbh, when I'm struggling and my brain is like over-stimulated by emotion, and my ocd hits overdrive... your videos bring me out of it. Something about the tone and delivery of information and ideas is calming. Thank you.
true, i actually put these videos at night to sleep otherwise my AdHd brain cant.
@@hashh2019omg me too. But I don't understand why it helps with the ADHD and also in my case it helps me not contact him. How does it help you with your ADHD if I may ask?
@@Hernameis... if i dont have anything playing i start thinking about all the tasks or problems etc n cant sleep due to that stress but this audio keeps me focused on one external topic plus since its soft monotone n makes me feel safe with no music etc i can actually sleep with it.
Devaluation was already in place. His father died February 2023. We did hospice in our home. My narcissist husband wanted gratification. Total attention....we just had his father die in our home!
Discard was slow and cruel, which ended in assault to me. He wanted me wiped out.
Now he's facing felony charges. Ive been away since the August assault. Im in a safe place..healing. learning so much information on the narcissist person in one's life. Its absolutely ludicrous. Off the rail. The On/ Off switch is unbelievable.
Still wondering how I made it.
No sense dwelling.
Just more informed.
When I unmasked my narcissist, she instantly discarded and ghosted me. It helps me to understand that her behavior was that of a toddler, not an adult. I’m not the only person she burned in her life. I’m curious how karma will play out for her. Like all of us, she’s not getting any younger.
"Not getting any younger" is such a narcissistic thing to say, as if this womans worth depends on you accepting her age. Strange but common sentiment among aging men but as my dad would say: When you've gotten away w doing boyish shit your whole life, aging seems like punishment. And some of yall are aging like spoiled milk.
@artluvr6170 I get what you're saying. Look up aging narcissist and the verdict seems to be they get worse as they age. Their bodies fail to keep up with the mental disorder. Good supply is hard to come by. They end up alone mostly due to all the damage and burnt bridges they caused.
@@kigzman1745 Exactly. We can let go and know that Mother Nature will give them what they deserve.
@@livelife5947 in Western Society maybe. But in other cultures not so. In African Culture families are generally close, with kids looking after their parents. The whole idea of having pension fund only came in much later. In Tanzania for example, it is customary for the last born to stay at home n look after the parents. Also I beg to differ. I think men do much better than women on their own. Look in Western culture how many men have given up on dating or pursuing a life long partner. N they don't go on Tik Tok to complain about how lonely they are.
@@kigzman1745Acoworker I had from Senegal opened my eyes to how difficult we make lives for ourselves. I am not against rugged individualism, but it is taken a little far. Each family is expected to stand on their own without aby support, and you are a failure if you can't achieve this. Most likely to convince us to buy up real estate or something. But we punish families for staying together and even shame kids for staying home just to save money. Tthis leaves everyone without a village to fall back on for help and support. It really drove it home since she was married to a peace diplomat and received free nannyy as a job perk. But still moved her sisters here to help with the children because putting them in a facility to be raised by strangers was such an callous concept to her.
This was amazing ... Only just found you a month ago and l haven't picked by jaw up off the floor yet. To finally have described what l have just been through the last few years. So sad that there are so many with this disorder ...all trying to love each other and failing because of an abusive childhood. Ugh 😩 l just want it all to stop but l think finally people are getting what this whole narcissist problem comes from and how we can start to try and heal that in each generation as we go. Tough times ahead as it all comes up to the surface both personally and politically on this planet. Big hugs to you all ❤❤❤
Wow i just happened upon your channel because i struggle with having CPTSD, now, at the age of 61yrs old i understand what it is that happened to me.. clearly seeing i grew up in a dysfunctional narcissistic family environment..
But you explained how a person becomes a Narcissist,and i can completely understand this.. BUT what i cant understand is how some siblings become narcissists and other siblings in same household growing up do not?? PLEASE help me understand why my 2 siblings became narcissists (as they were & still are very ABUSIVE to me), Yet i did not nor did my older brother may he RIP.. . How can we all grow up in this emotionally abusive disregulated family unit and yet only 2 of the 4 children became narcissists? This is so perplexing to me and i see the inner pain both my narc siblings are in, and i wish I could help them, but i cannot justify their abusive behavior towards me.. and in fact I had to go "no contact" with my older EXTREMELY abusive Narcissistic sister, which i truly agonize over doing because I truly grieve the sister i wished I had but never did.. please do a video on this how some children became narcissists and other do not that grow up in the same family.. thank you for all you do in bringing clarity and light on this dark subject so that many of us, especially those of us who've been victims of Narcs can begin having some healing from understanding.. TY ❤
Search the channel for “gene”.
Your teaching is heavy and has help me know exactly what is wrong with my husband. I know he is a covert narcissist but this video explains all his behaviour with his mother who he says abused him in his childhood. Its so sad that these mother mess them up as children and now we as wives are paying for their mistakes.
this is so accurate. the ex narcissist is 37 cannot find his way to an appropriate partner. is now with another narcissist and can’t get out bc is a child. it’s literally insane
😮😅😮😮😮😢
Poor child 😬
Professor Vaknin, thank you.
thank you so much for this extremely clear explanation of why the narcissist behaves the way they do. it all makes so much sense now why you have to be wrong for them to be right.
that association of becoming a surrogate mother explains a lot.
thanks, doc.
Finished the video. Mortifying indeed. Thank you for the video
Prof Sam Vaknin your work is so exquisitely revelatory that I understand my experiences in a way that is so complete that it feels surreal...Iam Alice in wonderland...and the wonderland is getting more and more wonderful.Thank you.
Some individuals who hold the role of priests have been known to exhibit grandiosity and engage in narcissistic abuse. They sometimes utilize the altar as a platform to perform a role they may not genuinely believe in, leading to a sense of living a falsehood. The most disheartening aspect is that they preach messages that contradict their own beliefs. Karma will eventually catch up with them!!
Dear Professor, it would be great to know more about narcissist’s middle age and its difficulties. As always I am so grateful you share your precious knowledge and experience. Thanks!
th-cam.com/video/TSICBwahB_s/w-d-xo.html
Thank you so much ❤
WOW! You nailed it again. Thankyouthankyou
Thank you for important information
Sam you are truly a grace to this world!
Thankyou Sam Vaknin greatful to see your videos I learn a lot from you, interestingly one thing " dot connecting of my own life and self"❤❤
Why does the narcissist have a shared fantasy with every woman. Why can’t he just have this with one woman and then just get over his childhood?
Watch the videos in the shared fantasy playlist.
Cos the woman they are in reality s unlike the one in their head. It is like they live in a computer game/ porn video world. They are bored after one download.
Very informative video
Thank you
This here says it all
You.put things
Into proper Perspective
How to identify whether the narcissist's midlife crisis is over and whether it has entered another phase? My marriage ended precisely during my ex-husband's midlife crisis. He made wrong choices, much younger women, started going out to bars, failed at university, suffered financial losses, fell into decline at work, completely lost what little common sense there was. And he keeps looking for me and saying that we shouldn't have gotten divorced.
He is trying to hoover you. Narcisist must have two types of partner in his life: one must be domestic, comforming, warm, inteligent, caring woman (mother-like type) and another one must be sexy, reckless, crazy, spontanious, dynamic, bigger than life, fun to spend time with.
When you said that the frustration and aggression begins from the failed fantasy, and that it has no where to go but to their partner etc. Is it possible for 2 Narcissists to then have a third party to use as a scapegoat of sorts. Trying to figure if my mother is a covert narcissist that is attracted to more regular(?) Narcissists.
Watch the videos on odd couples. Yes, it is possible to deflect the aggression onto a third party.
One of your best videos
Thanks so much ❤😊
Amazing stuff
Professor Vaknin, can a child turn into a narcissist even though raised by healthy parents? If so, when and how?
No.
Mine is 80. Gone thru man😅y changes. Now loves to be s social narc. I cannot accept this. Too upsetting. Have told his relatives to stay away
80!!! They get worse with age and never become human
How embarrassing for that idiot!
Hello Professor Vaknin. You did a video with Daria Zukowska a while ago. You had described narcissistic abuse to being nuclear war. Which video was that? I want to send it to my niece.
Yes. But there is no love
Is it common that even though you don’t want the narcissist back you have obsessive fantasies about them being extremely happy, wealthy, handsome now? I have no idea why my mind does this???
Angry at yourself? Vengeful?
@@samvaknin Both. And very hurt.
@@samvaknin but why would I think they’re grandiose now that we’re not together anymore if I am angry at myself or vengeful?
intrusive thoughts from undealt with trauma. anxiety related due to hurt and possible insecurities.
@@CupNoodleKitty
The X in law was extremely like this, and her daughter.
What an incredible sickness!
I do imagining stuff after breakup he moved on in his life and i do fantasisng as an escape mechnaism from the pain or trauma can someone help me how to overcome that
Watch the videos in the healing and recovery playlist.
@@samvakninc/
@@samvakninthanku so much for this🙏
Professor, I have a question regarding the final devaluation discard phase: I have noticed with multiple narcissists in my life (my husband of 29 years included) that this phase comes on in full force and rapidly after the loss of their father (another vulnerable narcissist). Have you encountered such a pattern in your studies, or is this just happenstance to my experiences? Additionally, I agree with a commentor on another of your videos who noted that their husband (the narc.) had warmth and fondness for their mother and disdain for their father. You responded that "mother" is the cause of their trauma. I found this interesting as my husband had such disdain for his father for cheating on his mother, and yet he has done the exact same thing to me. Can you explain this further? Thank you.
Happenstance. Anecdotal.
Thank you.
But interestingly it happent to me as well. Except it was with his mother instead. He discarded me three month before his mother died, she was 96. He hated his father. His father also cheated on his mother. He did the same with me, cheated me with a 20 years younger. After 50 years marriage. He did me a favor. Been listening prof Vaknin and Dr. Ramani, they help me tremendously
I am 76 and his new supply 56
😂
@dear professor, thanks for sharing your knowledge! My husband cerebral and antisocial for 22 years, then collapse and now he seems somatic and conform (completely opposite of the person I knew). Nearly how long it lasts such change? Thanks
There's no telling.
13:36 why narcissists are children, sometimes infantile 19:15
Would this stage be starting when narcissist crosses his 50’s or later? Thank you
When mine started to lose his hair at 38, lol
I loved toda's video Professor, kisses from Brasil 🇧🇷 would you mind make a video explaining why do narcissists have no ego? I am finding really hard to understand this 😅
I think they have no ego because the true self is arrested/out of action and hyper vulnerable and the false self is just a facade with emptiness behind it. Their need to feel exceptional is more about protecting the true self from harm. When the narcissist feels attacked his defensive response is about survival and is presented as a narcissistic injury and if is severe could cause mortification. A person who is not a narcissist has their true self ego damaged and since their true self is developed and is the only self, it is what receives the "hit" and their is no real sense of danger to the non narcissists sense of existence. A compliment and an insult affect a narcissist in a completely different way because of their different perception of existence.
Search the channel.
@@puglife6291 thank you so much for this explanation. It’s so much easier to understand now.
This is a great video, im kinda dissociating while listening to it since its describing me in ways but its good that it gives a framework for me to better understand aspects of my own development and others peoples
This all sounds almost like the personality and encouragement version of disorganized attachment, its interesting to me.
You talk about what happens if the mother remains alternating (resulting in the child becoming covert, using both the antisocial/defiant strategy and the conforming pseudonormal strategy), and if the mother finalizes on being detached or always was detached, the child becomes overt, using the antisocial/defiant strategy. But what happens if the mother becomes loving/present/caring after? Does the child try to normalize, it works and they keep doing it? Do they become codependant or perfectionistic (OCPD)? Do they become similar to BPD? Im really curious.
I'm a bpd and disorganized attachment. This all sounds spot on actually
The later on in life loving/healing mother is my current experience with a ambiguous mother who displayed mainly covertly narcissistic behavior, and who painfully subjected herself to a malignant and abusive husband for too long. She could be quite cold and distant, even though she seemed warm and perfect to others, by performing her motherly duties. Later on in life I realized I never really knew her. I knew of her. And it has always been hard to pear through her religious facade.
She's now trying to connect with me but I'm having a hard time seeing past the past. I'm blocked. Sad thing is I want to reconnect with her but she still has these manipulative tendencies by insisting I convert to her line of thinking. Only difference is that I have boundaries now. She's putting in the effort to respect my choices when I point out how I feel and think. Dealing with her takes a lot of enery so I avoid her. I just can't seem to forgive her for what happened between us. If anything, experiencing this attempt to show me love is triggering me even more. Reminding me of situations I totally had forgotten about.
It hurts to know that my childhood was painfully isolating and debilitating. I know her life was hard but so was/is mine. And it feels like it was all for nothing. Nowadays I'm working towards healing myself and my child in order to have a strong and healthy baseline for the two of us. The goal is to reestablish a form of connection that protects my sanity and the safe environment that is my own being.
Hope this sheds some light on your question.
@Sam Vaknin, does the job and money help decreasing the karma of a narcissist ?
Very true my mum thinks im perfect and i know i am to my mother anyone else i will get rid because they do not see how amazing i am and why should i keep proving myself to stupid people
LOVE 🙏🙏🙏
makes sense always says he couldn’t make me happy even though he has done all of this xyz. same with his son conditional on his performance or he is ridiculed.
Sounds like me.
So whats the solution? Apparently narcissism its a response to traumatic childhood experiences caused by others. Where is the difference to trauma?
99% of all narcist content are devaluing them as human beings really. But don't they suffer the most? I read suicide rate is at 10% among narcissists.
Among borderlines, not among narcissists.