Just want to post there is a couple errors in this video in the math that I have since fixed! Please check the updated spreadsheet before pointing out any mistakes. Thank you!
I think you have done a great job applying appropriate context. Saying yes this is the number but in the context of the army you can add A B and C. Nice work
those numbers are always interesting but speaking of efficiency we have to take into consideration the delivery of those numbers and i don't know how we can truly measure that. Like for example palladors can move 14", run, disengage and charge (so effectively you can move 20" and charge no problem) while dracoth just move 10 and have no bonus to movement making them not only the less tanky one but also half the speed, even though their damage is higher on paper. These units also compete with one another, like for example i'm really likely to not be the one initiating the fight with my dracoth while my palladors can go catch those pesky raptadons on the flanks. Dracoth being only 20w for a reinforced unit instead of 30 for the faster palladors makes them fail here too. And if i'm not taking the initiative of the fight i would expect them to be able to take a hit but they can't do that efficiently too with their 20w, or at least not vs the heavy hammer units they are supposed to fight against (for example fast infantry DPS units like inroguts/skullreapers that can run and charge outpace them and will delete the dracoth unit not problem). This said it's a good video and a much appreciated read.
I agree with all of this ! Wound/Damage efficiency can never capture all of this, but it at least can inform us what units are good at least on the level of stats, we then can shade that in with mobility, synergies etc.
I think a critical thing that discussions of pure durability and damage per point miss is the really important breakpoints and whether units reach them when reinforced, unreinforced or not at all. If you do an analysis of all the units that are commonly fielded, you get high concentrations of unit durability around the 10, 15, 20, 30 wound breakpoints (and the associated effective health values based on saves). Especially with Cavalry type units with benefits on the charge, being able to hit the breakpoints reliably and wipe full units has a huge impact on the actual In Game utility of the unit regardless of the on paper efficiency. It is much better to pay 20 points more for a unit that is able to consistently kill the 10 wound 4+ save profile than 20 points less for a unit that is more efficient but falls short of wiping the full screen the majority of the time. Side Note: Limiting the decimal places to 1 would make the data a lot more readable.
Have you thought about adding the doom-flayers from Skaven on the list? I think Skaven players would view them as cavalry units, they are fast and cause extra damage and rend vs infantry on the charge. Maybe at some point you put a net point adjustment for units with 10 / 12 / 14 inch move in this calc and also give a bonus for 4+ health units because they are going to be able to “power through” if they want to either seize objectives or get out of combat to charge again.
Appreciate the video. Love some stats and math. For the damage calculations, how was rend taken into account? Did you calculate the damage against all save totals and average? Or just take damage against a 4+ or something? Darkoath Felriders were excluded because they're really bad? Thanks again. Enjoyed the video. ( I am subscribed)
Hey l! Love it! I do a lot of math on my channel as well. Any chance you could send me your spreadsheet so I can dig in a bit on how this all worked? I think I'll do a response video with my own methodology. Also would love to chat about this stuff too!
Yeah, my conclusion with Sylvaneth is that you need the spiteriders to be using the strike first for them to be worth their points cost i.e. you need to be fighting with two or more units each turn AND you want Strike First to proc. Probably best to bring two units, which is REALLY hard to fit in a list. Then again, there is something you be said for being the fastest hammer in the army
Expansion ideas: Durability, assume 3 cases: enemy as 0, 1, 2 rend Damage: let movement and abilities that affect chance to complete a charge become a factor in weighing dmg on charge vs dmg on noncharge
Did you include Mannfreds buff with calculating Black Knights? This is a great interesting list, but power combos and interactions with battle traits/enhancements are hard to factor in.
I can't replicate your numbers for PGBLs. I don't know how you calculated average damage, but I can't figure out what you compared their raw output to (an average of all the save profiles?) in order to get your damage numbers. Compared to a 4+, I get that they are still the worst, but "only" at 26.7 instead of the 32 you found. Can you tell me what comparison you used?
Interesting video! As a Gitz enjoyer, I'd not say Boingrotz are that viable for Take The Flanks. Their Random movement really does not make them the best on objective play. Regarding damage, they are really up there with the best units on the gitz I'd say. Would still lazily just spam Squigherd currently for the most effective play though (very boring). Talking about stacking buffs with gitz... I wouldn't go for it. Currently it is much more effective just swamp the board with more bodies that _actually_ do something. Compared on relying on dice throws for buffs.
He didn’t calculate manfred’s extra attack buff or the necromaners fight twice ability. One of those is definitely harder to pull than the other, but with just manfred’s buff in the charge it’s 50% increase in efficiency. Also unsure how he calculated recursion and getting half the unit back for free. There is a reason they got points nerf and were taken in every list prior to the balance update.
I knew Pusgoyle Blightlords were terrible, but the worst cavalry in the game? Wow. What has GW done to you? And waaaay worse than the next worst point/effectiveness. And they are slower than most cavalry, too. I guess they fly? And spread disease? Yay?
technically stormfiends are cavalry, because the brainrat is piloting the super rat ogor... it doesnt get the key word, but technically, the brain rat is mounting the rat ogor
You and Rob are my favourite warhammer content creators - all Stewart videos are great videos
Just want to post there is a couple errors in this video in the math that I have since fixed! Please check the updated spreadsheet before pointing out any mistakes. Thank you!
Thanks for the great video! I like to do these calculations for the factions I play for, but it's very interesting to see the full picture!
The last two videos of the charts!! Keep up the good work. Love this theory/mathammer stuff as well. Thanks mate✌️
Love the new vids stu! All of the topics so far are so cool to dive into!
I printed 20 Dark Riders because I thought they were solid warscroll and looked cool. This video reinforced that.
thanks once more for this math shit! love it and i cant figure it myself so TYTYYT
This was great. I loved the breakdown and I appreciate this. Thank you!
Thanks!
Warlocks being a 15-wound 14m wizard for 150 points is real good.
Yesss more math.
Also great hair today Stu.
I think you have done a great job applying appropriate context.
Saying yes this is the number but in the context of the army you can add A B and C. Nice work
Cheers for the video, would be interested in more for other types of units.
those numbers are always interesting but speaking of efficiency we have to take into consideration the delivery of those numbers and i don't know how we can truly measure that.
Like for example palladors can move 14", run, disengage and charge (so effectively you can move 20" and charge no problem) while dracoth just move 10 and have no bonus to movement making them not only the less tanky one but also half the speed, even though their damage is higher on paper.
These units also compete with one another, like for example i'm really likely to not be the one initiating the fight with my dracoth while my palladors can go catch those pesky raptadons on the flanks.
Dracoth being only 20w for a reinforced unit instead of 30 for the faster palladors makes them fail here too.
And if i'm not taking the initiative of the fight i would expect them to be able to take a hit but they can't do that efficiently too with their 20w, or at least not vs the heavy hammer units they are supposed to fight against (for example fast infantry DPS units like inroguts/skullreapers that can run and charge outpace them and will delete the dracoth unit not problem).
This said it's a good video and a much appreciated read.
I agree with all of this ! Wound/Damage efficiency can never capture all of this, but it at least can inform us what units are good at least on the level of stats, we then can shade that in with mobility, synergies etc.
Love this mate!
I think a critical thing that discussions of pure durability and damage per point miss is the really important breakpoints and whether units reach them when reinforced, unreinforced or not at all. If you do an analysis of all the units that are commonly fielded, you get high concentrations of unit durability around the 10, 15, 20, 30 wound breakpoints (and the associated effective health values based on saves). Especially with Cavalry type units with benefits on the charge, being able to hit the breakpoints reliably and wipe full units has a huge impact on the actual In Game utility of the unit regardless of the on paper efficiency. It is much better to pay 20 points more for a unit that is able to consistently kill the 10 wound 4+ save profile than 20 points less for a unit that is more efficient but falls short of wiping the full screen the majority of the time.
Side Note: Limiting the decimal places to 1 would make the data a lot more readable.
Have you thought about adding the doom-flayers from Skaven on the list? I think Skaven players would view them as cavalry units, they are fast and cause extra damage and rend vs infantry on the charge.
Maybe at some point you put a net point adjustment for units with 10 / 12 / 14 inch move in this calc and also give a bonus for 4+ health units because they are going to be able to “power through” if they want to either seize objectives or get out of combat to charge again.
The Nurgle demon Calvary is missing.
Appreciate the video. Love some stats and math.
For the damage calculations, how was rend taken into account? Did you calculate the damage against all save totals and average? Or just take damage against a 4+ or something?
Darkoath Felriders were excluded because they're really bad?
Thanks again. Enjoyed the video. ( I am subscribed)
Hey l! Love it! I do a lot of math on my channel as well. Any chance you could send me your spreadsheet so I can dig in a bit on how this all worked? I think I'll do a response video with my own methodology. Also would love to chat about this stuff too!
the link is in the description for the spreadsheet
@@XallanofEdge thanks!
Hooray Nurgle
Yeah, my conclusion with Sylvaneth is that you need the spiteriders to be using the strike first for them to be worth their points cost i.e. you need to be fighting with two or more units each turn AND you want Strike First to proc. Probably best to bring two units, which is REALLY hard to fit in a list. Then again, there is something you be said for being the fastest hammer in the army
It's Maths i'm pretty sure, if you are following Australian (British) grammar.
Pusgoyles need help bad. And no Plague Drones?
Expansion ideas:
Durability, assume 3 cases: enemy as 0, 1, 2 rend
Damage: let movement and abilities that affect chance to complete a charge become a factor in weighing dmg on charge vs dmg on noncharge
Hey mate did the squig hopper math take into account the moment mortals??
Always been a bounder guy but was leaning towards hoppers before this
Just a thought for the excel sheet. Maybe white on black instead. Hard to read the titles
Did you include Mannfreds buff with calculating Black Knights?
This is a great interesting list, but power combos and interactions with battle traits/enhancements are hard to factor in.
how do stormstrikes fit in?
Where are the Doomflayers?
I can't get the formulas to display - what was the save basis you used? I assume 4+?
I can't replicate your numbers for PGBLs. I don't know how you calculated average damage, but I can't figure out what you compared their raw output to (an average of all the save profiles?) in order to get your damage numbers. Compared to a 4+, I get that they are still the worst, but "only" at 26.7 instead of the 32 you found. Can you tell me what comparison you used?
Just a mistake! Fixed now
Interesting video!
As a Gitz enjoyer, I'd not say Boingrotz are that viable for Take The Flanks. Their Random movement really does not make them the best on objective play. Regarding damage, they are really up there with the best units on the gitz I'd say. Would still lazily just spam Squigherd currently for the most effective play though (very boring). Talking about stacking buffs with gitz... I wouldn't go for it. Currently it is much more effective just swamp the board with more bodies that _actually_ do something. Compared on relying on dice throws for buffs.
Bouncy knights are the way!
Gore gruntas do more damage on the charge, don't forget the d3 mortals. When I do the math it's 8.89 on the charge.
Oof on black knights, good thing I run mannfred for the extra attack.
I think it's a little misleading by not including mobility.
More math!
Now do all the other units in the game!
How's your gobbapalooza spam list going? Would love to hear about it.
Too many factors are not included and , please, truncate your numbers.
Bring back the age of the eel ×_×
Black Knights make me sad :(
He didn’t calculate manfred’s extra attack buff or the necromaners fight twice ability. One of those is definitely harder to pull than the other, but with just manfred’s buff in the charge it’s 50% increase in efficiency. Also unsure how he calculated recursion and getting half the unit back for free.
There is a reason they got points nerf and were taken in every list prior to the balance update.
Dark riders are so cooked.
I knew Pusgoyle Blightlords were terrible, but the worst cavalry in the game? Wow. What has GW done to you? And waaaay worse than the next worst point/effectiveness. And they are slower than most cavalry, too. I guess they fly? And spread disease? Yay?
technically stormfiends are cavalry, because the brainrat is piloting the super rat ogor... it doesnt get the key word, but technically, the brain rat is mounting the rat ogor