They created a big time warp problem in Ep6 when Aemond finally decides what to do about the blockade. Otto (who was working on that problem from early on in the book, and the apparent lack of progress was what caused Aegon to get pissed at him) had already been dismissed as hand by then, so the writers had to give the job to Tyland. The problem is, it's kind of late for it. By the time Otto is dismissed in the book, the terms have already been sent and the Triarchy simply hasn't responded yet, but in the show they're starting from scratch after Aemond becomes regent. Aemond says that it's a two-week march to Harrenhal and then dispatches Cole and Tyland in the same scene to do their respective jobs, but Tyland can't sail from King's Landing because of the blockade. He has to go somewhere else to catch a ship. The closest alternative ports, Maidenpool and Gulltown, are controlled by the Blacks. The nearest Green-friendly options are in the Stormlands, significantly further away than Harrenhal is, and then he has to actually cross the Narrow sea. In episode 8, Cole and Gwayne and their troops are still on the march, so it's pretty clear that the entire 2 weeks have not yet passed, but the next time we see Tyland, he is already in Tyrosh. So he managed, in the same amount of time, to travel basically twice as far over land as Cole AND make the sea passage, and that kind of beggars belief. The latter half of this season just reeks of them getting desperate to find ways to get the plot points to happen and teleporting characters around to enable it because they realized they had written themselves into a corner they had no way to get out of, so they just hand-wave it. This sort of thing became extremely noticeable in the last two seasons of Game of Thrones, and seeing it again here is kind of disturbing.
Get over it or dont bother with season 3. As much as people like you moan about it. HOTD is still better than 99% of everything else coming out and on at these times. People just want to moan.
@@mattsavage9960 Remember when this world actually felt big and believable because its geography and the distances involved imposed limitations on the characters and had a tangible impact on how the story progressed? I do. And I miss that. "This is still better than 99% of everything else on TV at the moment" isn't saying much. Don't make excuses for lazy writing dude. They can do better, and they should. I don't just want to moan, I want the writing to actually make sense so I don't have to turn my brain off to enjoy it.
Frankly I'm looking at the map right now and not sure what the hell you're on about. The distance from KL to Harrenhal is barely shorter, if at all, compared to KL-Storm's End via the kingsroad, where there's a small dock nearby. Furthermore, Tyland and presumably just a few guards on horseback can travel easily twice as fast through friendly territory as an army on foot can march through hostile territory, probably way more. And the sea voyage to Tyrosh is just a few days too. Simply put, there's no conflict here, whatsoever, so please don't use it to make any larger point about the season. It's irrelevant and only of your own making.
@@parkernisbett Yeh I get that, but Ep8 just felt like any other mid season episode and not the season finale. Almost feels like the producers got told they were only allowed 8 episodes instead of 10 so they just chopped the last two off and left the rest as is.
My biggest issue is that none of the "team green" members actually think they are in the right this season. The show itself is not bad, but there are really strange story beats that prevent the show from matching the quality of GoT S1-S3. I want the story of a brutal civil war between two rival branches of House Targaryen. What I got is the story of a simple misunderstanding between two childhood friends who's families are essentially strangers. I feel like the real mistake was not making Aegon a main character in S1.
Alicent was the biggest shadow over this season. There are so many reasons why the magic of season 1 is tied to season 1 Alicent being so very different. You can have her regret things and even be slightly hypocritical without all her established convictions breaking down before Rhaenyra. And here I thought season 1 episodes 1-8 (minus the end) beautifully set up the division at court and the falling out of Alicent and Rhaenyra. Not so much since apparently deep down they were as close as ever. It really undermines all the season 1 goodness honestly. On some level, now and perhaps always, because of the extremely conflicting claims to the throne it's "You win or you die", especially since both factions have already stooped very low for victory. In that sense, the "she specifically would never do this" doesn't matter. That's just the reality of the medieval world and this aspect of the situation only enhanced the show, this authentic medieval intrigue that Otto and Alicent understood the best. What's frustrating is that Alicent kinda forgets all of this losing all the agency her character supposedly gained (especially after Green dress and Driftmark) and Otto leaves which, in hindsight tells you a lot about the writer's priorities. Also, the prevailing idea that accidents, misunderstandings, lies, and manipulation are the main reason for the war instead of the genuine animosity and political situation weakens the story as well. What the writers were obviously going for was Alicent, to be more sympathetic, being team Black all along but only on Green because she was confused and manipulated. They decided to bank the Dance and the entirety of that show on this premise. 🤦 Them being friends in the beginning was a meaningful addition if they actually panned out into enemies. For it to be used for this is such a blunder.
I would have cut a few of the Daemon visions, cut the Rhaenyra and Alicent scenes, moved Tyland and the Triarchy to episode 5 or 6, and ended the season with the Battle of the Gullet.
Don't worry lots more on the way. Sometimes finding balance can be quite hard but what i've learned is even if i personally don't like something doesn't doesn't automatically make it bad, often you can find some redeeming qualities
I enjoyed the season but I definitely think it suffered from being cut down to 8 episodes, I also really didn’t like the Rhaenyra/Alicent secret meetings especially the 2nd meeting.
The way the fandom treated Cole’s actor, coryls diminishing legacy directly because of rhaenyra essentially eradicating his bloodline and yet he still simps for her, Alicent constantly being a victim of SA and being blamed for it, Alicent going from fierce mom to “here girly, you can have my sons head and everyone else, just don’t kill my sweet neurodivergent princess sweetie pie!” Yeah none of this is good. Tye show had some good moments but I don’t see any way for this to end in a satisfying way. Do people really think meager with teats is gonna make An appearance? Also it’s kinda odd for an actress to demand a lesbian kissing scene with a co worker simply because “it felt right” if a male actor made the same suggestion for no reason it wouldn’t fly. Especially because the worm was talk about her father graping her. Totally bizzare. Alicent has been butchered.
I still don't get why they fucked up B&C, or why the deaths have no weight on the narrative. However I really like all the secondary characters, they stole the show!
@@WorldOfWesterosYou're absolutely 100% correct. It feels like they did Blood and Cheese kinda because they had to because it's in the book. And then they tried to move past it as soon as possible. Which is massively dissonant with the audience and the books because in any sort of realistic scenario, having your toddler murdered like this would be extremely distressing. Catelyn showed anguish and cried out in pain when Robb died in front of her. In the show Jaehaerys dies and people just...hell, that Bracken guy cared more about his death than his own mother.
How they handled blood and cheese was my first inkling that I wasn't going to enjoy the show by the end of the season. They've gone beyond taking artistic liberties and are making thier own story, a story of lower quality.
@@kb4903Hightower is where Sam tarlys family was in GOT him and gilly went there we seen both highgarden and Hightower in GOT. And it's not really at all important for HOTD
Ironically, HOTD has the exact opposite problem GOT had. HBO wanted 10 seasons for GOT and was even pushing for more episodes, but it was Dumb and Dumber who forced the plot rush and limiting of episodes. But with HOTD, HBO is the one forcing limitations onto HOTD and cutting the number of episodes, even with the memory of what happened with GOT.
No one speak the elephant in the room. The writers imagine they are ferminist by painting the female leads too good, to the extent that they are imaginary and do not exist in real life. (frankly I can’t fathom why rhaenys is comparable to clinton but one writer of the show certainly "interpret" this way - interpretation is alright as long as it is logical to commonfolks) In fact there is nothing ferminist in it. If they had ever respect the ideology they should have just stopped writing all those silly girlboss moments and maintain character consistency.
Mostly everyone knows, from the Audience, Show Runners, writers, producers, directors and HBO, That Episode 8 was the set up for episode 9 The Battle of the Gullet and episode 10 the Fall of Kings Landing💯 They need to Stop Gaslighting the Public! Episode 8 was a Trailer for 9&10, Not the Finale🔥Now we have to wait 2 Years, That Bulls__T. Shame on you HBO🤮
Yeah. The season was kinda weak compared to season 1 but the real issue is the track they've now locked themselves into. There will be issues going ahead, it's clear to see. Much like Vizzy T, the writers have set up all the domino's to cause their own ruin, and its gonna take a dramatic, heroic level of effort to wright the ship now.
For the Lord commander & the watch !!! This season wasn’t bad just different then what I expected it to be… Here here for Brother Bittersteel!! Some events like the battles of Rooks Rest & the aftermath of blood & cheese was phenomenal.. The moment with the child itself was handled very very well!!! Even though it was a damn brutal scene.. I didn’t care for How they had Rhaeynera & Alicent talk again at Dragonstone.. The first meeting alone was a bit of a stretch to me anyway… Other than the way it was paced & some episodes felt empty… It was a good season… Seeing Paddy was great !! He made season 1 so intense with his acting … I hope next season is better honestly.. Thanks for your review mi’lord
Season 2 started pretty well. Even if I wasn't the biggest fan of some of the choices the showrunners made. And I did really enjoy the Daemon arc. But the last like, 2-3 episodes. Man they were terrible XD. And now they're telling me they're saving the Battle of the Gullet for the end of season 3 lmao. They're not gonna have an audience by then at this rate XD.
How information in general, not just someone’s death, is sent between the Greens and Blacks was also an issue. Every episode felt like all the characters watched the last one with us
Yeah you wonder how does each side know what's going on so quickly? Sure, they probably have spies on each side, but who are they? Little birds can acquire a lot of information, but there's stuff that they just can't know. There should be counter- intelligence going on as well. In the books, you read of ravens being shot down to prevent communications from getting out.
Thank you so much for this fair and balanced review, which is refreshingly unbiased and free of all the 'worse than GOT S8' discourse flying about which has become so toxic. Whilst HBO/Warners did do a lot of harm by shortening the season at such short notice, the writers and showrunner were also at fault - the writing, pacing and character beats this season were definitely off, and whilst I enjoyed the season, it really wasn't as well done as S1 and could have been so much better.
Heartily agree with you on the various writers/show runners saying different things about what this or that means. It’s not only confusing but highly unprofessional. The creative team behind the show should be united as one in their vision; how on earth are fans supposed to trust that they can deliver a well thought through show to them if they can’t organise themselves and all understand the intent behind each scene? 🙄🤦♀️ On a less ranty note, very much looking forward to your character arc videos!
Well that's literally the show runner's job. To make sure there is consistency and the episodes, written by different writers, all flow together to tell a cohesive story. Ryan Condal is failing at this.
I think the season is in a weird middle ground, not because its middling quality all the way through, but because just about every single scene is either amazing, or dogcrap, and there is just no inbetween. For every scene like Otto's dismissal, you get a Rhaenyra and Mysaria macking. Its like playing russian roulette with every scene.
I really like your takes here, they're very level headed and I agree with most of them. I watched your other video about the consequences of moving the Battle of the Gullet to season 3, and now I'm truly concerned for the fate of this show. I fully agree with you that there is no way to do the rest of the story justice with only two more 8-episode seasons.
Oh it's nowhere near as bad as season 8. If i had to pick a season of GoT to compare it to it would be season 5, still quite good but starting to see some poorer elements creep in
My biggest problem with the show is that the writers hated the Greens from the beginning. There's no moral conflict like in Game of Thrones because the show keeps desperately pointing out that the Blacks are the good guys. There's no morally grey in this show and that's a real diservice to George's fans.
I quite liked HoTD season 2 but I also did make an active effort to ignore any and all marketing. After GoT I sat down and realised that at some stage hype just gets too much and nothing can live up to it. So I enjoyed it for what it was. Could have been better. Especially that TH-camr they hired (that whole thing was weird) and how they handled Alicents story but overall it was good
S2 is a Mess in writing You can hire any fan writer and would be better than the whole pacing of the show Pacing of any Story: Something happens -> grows -> changes -> ends Now the pacing of the show is quite literally : Something happens -> nothing -> nothing until episode 4 and 5 -> episode 6 7 = grow and changes -> "ends" in episode 8 Like i dont say Daemon should end his trip in the middle of the season but THERE IS ZERO GROW IN THE DREAMS quite literally Daemon accomplish his goals in TWO EPISODES meanwhile the rest in Harrenhal is FILLER Same with Rhaenyra until she gets the Dragonseeds you can cut the scenes (obviously you miss Mysaria but literally she does all the work . . .) Alicent on the other hand she instead of CHANGES AND ENDS is more like subvert expectations so she is an ally of the Black Queen bruH FROM NOTHING SHE IS A GOOD FRIEND I can believe this show im not mad from the changes from the books but the changes on characters being ASOIAF or any other show, plus the pacing is not slow IS DAMN BAD DIRECTED if all the problems are resolve in ONE OR TWO SCENES
i feel like when s3 comes out it will change the way we see it, it still won’t erase its flaws and questionable choices, with that being said it was an ok season, not terrible like or worse than got s8 as some ppl are saying
yep i think if season 3 comes out the gate running, all this will be forgotten, even now when you watch the saeon back as one thing it's not as bad as i felt at first
The problem is as grrm puts it every other writer thinks that when you have great material you can fill the blanks actually you can change and improve it but nooo noo noooo none of the show writers has the capacity to do so they are ruining characters i can tolarete everything put i officially lost my faith when alicent came to dragonstone that conversation showed me that this show is a lost cause
I think HBO and the show runners would’ve been served to have made Season 1 less compressed and made the time jump to start Season 2. Season 2 would’ve been more full as a result.
while I enjoyed the season it def wasn’t worth the 2 year wait, fans hatin on it as a whole just for the finale like we didn’t have some banger episodes (2 & 4) the only thing I’m hopin from this backlash is that warner bros/ hbo stops cheapin out on this series & give it the budget it deserves to properly adapt
There is no middle ground between the extremes, though. What I mean by that is the show was closer to being a 10/10 than it was to being worse than S8 of GoT. I mean, come on. S2 was very good. I don't think it falls below an 8/10 overall when you consider the excellent acting, beautiful sets, brilliant special effects and, for the most part, solid writing. Finally, I believe the whole notion of the 'pacing' -- which I regard as a very nebulous and vague criterium -- being 'bad' to be, for the most part, overblown. Considering that only 8 episodes were granted to the writers, what they accomplished was incredibly coherent.
S1 was like GOT S1-4 roughly in quality, albeit with some bad scenes and the last episode seems to have a big drop in quality compared to the previous episode, but S2 is well on its way to S8 levels of quality.And S3 is gonna by GRRM’s own warnings be worse.Get ready to see character assassination that outdoes even Jaime’s never cared for innocents line in S8 of GOT.
Even if it doesn’t always work you can’t say they didn’t put a lot of effort into this season. Having the episodes cut down and the writers strikes while dealing with such sparse and difficult source material it’s a miracle season 2 was as good as it was. With a budget keeping them from showing the fall of kingslanding or gullet I’m happy they chose to play safe and hold off until they can do these events justice. With so much criticism I fear the franchise might collapse. Then the people complaining will get what they deserve. Nothing. At least HBO and the show runners are feeding the ASOIAF fandom (even if it’s not the best material) unlike George’s who’s starving his fans entirely.
I don't really think HBO really care about criticism as long as the show is maintaining viewership and makes money, i think the days where HBO was a beacon of high quality TV is slowly fading in the streaming market. There is a risk of collapsing the TV shows. House Of The Dragon was already the second chance after GoT season 8, it's vital they stick the landing with HOTD and Dunk and Egg is a hit.
"With so much criticism I fear the franchise might collapse. Then the people complaining will get what they deserve. Nothing." Good. Let it collapse. These people (producers) need to learn a lesson. They need to face consequences for hiring incompetent writers who don't respect or appreciate the source material. And the only lesson or consequence they could ever possibly understand is a film or TV show failing. Although clearly they didn't learn anything from the failure of GoT. At this point, I'm indifferent to further seasons of HotD. I read Fire and Blood up until the Great Council of 101, and then stopped reading because I didn't want any spoilers. But from what I can understand they've changed the story and characters so much that it may as well be a different story. So I've picked up reading it from where I left off. I don't care if they don't make any more. Life is too short to spend it getting invested in a shit TV show. People like you, who make excuses for bad television/film/writing are part of the problem. Have some standards FFS.
My issues aren’t about not enough action its the story telling choices some of the dialogue is amazing some of it is just dumb idk what they are doing honestly cutting out nettles daemons weirwood vision
Beala, Jace, Rhena hell Aegon had way to little to do. Specially Beala had three scenes in the rest she stood in the background, And every storyline of Jace was cut. The north barely seen, The vale cut. the dragon seeds given to Rhaenyra. In the rest he did the Freys and stood around in the background. The Rhena storyline was not a hit. she ran around in the vale and back talked Jayne Arryn. we did not even get the payoff of her taming Sheep stealer or flying. this is what we got instead of Nettels
Loved your analysis as ever Ser. Your learned colleague Talking Thrones released a video several days’ ago discussing the financial woes at HBO which were behind the messed up structure of Season 2 th-cam.com/video/Xt8eXvt6nc4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=52AazDycA21UhjWt . Still, there were so many wonderful scenes in Season 2 - my highlight being the masterful owning of Daemon by the young Oscar Tully at Harrenhal. Matthew Needham continues to be superb as Larys. I loved ‘Fire and Blood’ (I’m a book nerd) and there are many issues I have with the Season but, ho hum, it is a drama…but please no more ‘Rhaenalicent’. I still enjoyed the series hugely. As ever, the music by the superlative Ramin Djawadi was excellent.
I also really enjoyed season 2, everyone wants all the good shit in one episode. Are we forgetting the shitshow that was GOT season 8?? Rushed is never a good thing. That being said daemons storyline intrigues me most. Bring on the battle above the god's eye.
season 2 of GOT was not at all good. Relation ofArya and Tywin, battle of blackwater were the good ones. Danys vision in the house of undying was not at all good in the books. But Season 3 and Season 4 of GOT was brilliant that overcome the bad ones in Season 2.
I love this show. As a book fan, I was fine with most of the changes made. Some things were disappointing to me but overall I loved most of it and it is one of my favorite shows.
I didn't particularly like Season 1, and thought Season 2 was an improvement, still flawed but better. Too many people got way too excited about how "brilliant" Season 1 was IMHO. If you go into Season 2 with very low expectations, it's pretty good.
A big problem with Daemon and that last vision is I think they miss a major point of Martin's work. A lot of it is about subverting fantasy tropes. Jon Snow isn't Aragorn and won't become a great king. Likewise, prophecy and visions are muddied and unclear. People constantly misinterpret them. They may just be stories. The Prince That Was Promised, Azor Ahai, Last Hero, etc. may not and may never exist. They're similar legends from different regions that may or may not refer to the same people or not. Over thousands of years, those stories would have changed a lot and may not be close to the truth. Take real world legends. Most cultures have a legend about a great flood of some sort. Some people take that to mean there really was some sort of world wide flood. However, it ignores that most civilizations grew near rivers. Rivers flood often. There are bound to be years where it's much worse than others. Since it's a major lifeline, stories of great flood years will sprout up. Over time, they'll get conflated into one big one. As people spread out, they meet others who have similar stories and assume it refers to the same event. Martin wants us to remember that it's people's actions and choices that matter, not what magical tree people say they'll do.
I’m actually glad that Alicent isn’t one of those many mothers who blindly ignores or excuses the crimes of her children. Though most from personally finding those mothers annoying than from any writing perspective.
People are dramatic. The show is just as good as Game Of Thrones was. Yes, the ending of season two wasn’t my favorite. It wasn’t BAD. But it wasn’t GREAT. I think that with HBO cutting funding, cutting two episodes, dealing with the writers strike, this season was destined to have some bumps along the way. But I still believe it is solid, and the storylines and character arcs are working well. I say this to those who say it’s worse than GOT…. THIS ISN’T GOT. It’s a completely different storyline. Things are going to be different. Idk. I think the show is really good, and so far I’m pretty much pleased with it all.
@@zazi_555 but… it actually is a budget problem. Which creates the character arc/writing problems your talking about. It was originally going to be 10 episodes. Ryan Condal, and other writers and directors have come out and said, HBO and their parent company told them to shorten it to 8 episodes for “budgetary reasons” and then their financial report came out last week, and HBOs parent company is bleeding money right now and not bringing enough in. They said from day one, this story would be told in 4 seasons. There are possibilities that we may get 10 episodes in the next two seasons and if not, we may get “feature film” length episodes. 🤷🏻♂️
Anyone that thinks this was as bad as GOT season 8 needs to get those cataracts out their eyes… this season was good… and I find it funny that the same people who didn’t like how the last 2 seasons of GOT are saying that stuff is moving to slow 😂
![ไลฟ์สุ่ม iPhone 295 บาท... โกงมั้ย?[ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.97 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/gdstHEE4UUE/mqdefault.jpg)
They created a big time warp problem in Ep6 when Aemond finally decides what to do about the blockade. Otto (who was working on that problem from early on in the book, and the apparent lack of progress was what caused Aegon to get pissed at him) had already been dismissed as hand by then, so the writers had to give the job to Tyland. The problem is, it's kind of late for it. By the time Otto is dismissed in the book, the terms have already been sent and the Triarchy simply hasn't responded yet, but in the show they're starting from scratch after Aemond becomes regent.
Aemond says that it's a two-week march to Harrenhal and then dispatches Cole and Tyland in the same scene to do their respective jobs, but Tyland can't sail from King's Landing because of the blockade. He has to go somewhere else to catch a ship. The closest alternative ports, Maidenpool and Gulltown, are controlled by the Blacks. The nearest Green-friendly options are in the Stormlands, significantly further away than Harrenhal is, and then he has to actually cross the Narrow sea. In episode 8, Cole and Gwayne and their troops are still on the march, so it's pretty clear that the entire 2 weeks have not yet passed, but the next time we see Tyland, he is already in Tyrosh. So he managed, in the same amount of time, to travel basically twice as far over land as Cole AND make the sea passage, and that kind of beggars belief.
The latter half of this season just reeks of them getting desperate to find ways to get the plot points to happen and teleporting characters around to enable it because they realized they had written themselves into a corner they had no way to get out of, so they just hand-wave it. This sort of thing became extremely noticeable in the last two seasons of Game of Thrones, and seeing it again here is kind of disturbing.
Get over it or dont bother with season 3. As much as people like you moan about it. HOTD is still better than 99% of everything else coming out and on at these times. People just want to moan.
@@mattsavage9960 Remember when this world actually felt big and believable because its geography and the distances involved imposed limitations on the characters and had a tangible impact on how the story progressed?
I do. And I miss that.
"This is still better than 99% of everything else on TV at the moment" isn't saying much. Don't make excuses for lazy writing dude. They can do better, and they should. I don't just want to moan, I want the writing to actually make sense so I don't have to turn my brain off to enjoy it.
@@mattsavage9960you sound like a drone dude
Frankly I'm looking at the map right now and not sure what the hell you're on about. The distance from KL to Harrenhal is barely shorter, if at all, compared to KL-Storm's End via the kingsroad, where there's a small dock nearby. Furthermore, Tyland and presumably just a few guards on horseback can travel easily twice as fast through friendly territory as an army on foot can march through hostile territory, probably way more. And the sea voyage to Tyrosh is just a few days too.
Simply put, there's no conflict here, whatsoever, so please don't use it to make any larger point about the season. It's irrelevant and only of your own making.
I really enjoyed Season 2. My only problem was that it didn’t end, it just stopped.
well yes! the story isnt over yet. it would feel like that no matter where they stopped
@@parkernisbett Yeh I get that, but Ep8 just felt like any other mid season episode and not the season finale. Almost feels like the producers got told they were only allowed 8 episodes instead of 10 so they just chopped the last two off and left the rest as is.
Agreed people just moan at anything these days.
@@mb2000 yeap
I appreciate this comment. I liked the season, but the ending left me wanting.
My biggest issue is that none of the "team green" members actually think they are in the right this season. The show itself is not bad, but there are really strange story beats that prevent the show from matching the quality of GoT S1-S3. I want the story of a brutal civil war between two rival branches of House Targaryen. What I got is the story of a simple misunderstanding between two childhood friends who's families are essentially strangers.
I feel like the real mistake was not making Aegon a main character in S1.
Alicent was the biggest shadow over this season. There are so many reasons why the magic of season 1 is tied to season 1 Alicent being so very different.
You can have her regret things and even be slightly hypocritical without all her established convictions breaking down before Rhaenyra. And here I thought season 1 episodes 1-8 (minus the end) beautifully set up the division at court and the falling out of Alicent and Rhaenyra. Not so much since apparently deep down they were as close as ever. It really undermines all the season 1 goodness honestly.
On some level, now and perhaps always, because of the extremely conflicting claims to the throne it's "You win or you die", especially since both factions have already stooped very low for victory. In that sense, the "she specifically would never do this" doesn't matter. That's just the reality of the medieval world and this aspect of the situation only enhanced the show, this authentic medieval intrigue that Otto and Alicent understood the best.
What's frustrating is that Alicent kinda forgets all of this losing all the agency her character supposedly gained (especially after Green dress and Driftmark) and Otto leaves which, in hindsight tells you a lot about the writer's priorities. Also, the prevailing idea that accidents, misunderstandings, lies, and manipulation are the main reason for the war instead of the genuine animosity and political situation weakens the story as well.
What the writers were obviously going for was Alicent, to be more sympathetic, being team Black all along but only on Green because she was confused and manipulated. They decided to bank the Dance and the entirety of that show on this premise. 🤦 Them being friends in the beginning was a meaningful addition if they actually panned out into enemies. For it to be used for this is such a blunder.
I would have cut a few of the Daemon visions, cut the Rhaenyra and Alicent scenes, moved Tyland and the Triarchy to episode 5 or 6, and ended the season with the Battle of the Gullet.
Looking forward to more deep dive videos from you! You are one of the few people that actually looks at the show from a very balanced viewpoint.
Don't worry lots more on the way. Sometimes finding balance can be quite hard but what i've learned is even if i personally don't like something doesn't doesn't automatically make it bad, often you can find some redeeming qualities
I enjoyed the season but I definitely think it suffered from being cut down to 8 episodes, I also really didn’t like the Rhaenyra/Alicent secret meetings especially the 2nd meeting.
The way the fandom treated Cole’s actor, coryls diminishing legacy directly because of rhaenyra essentially eradicating his bloodline and yet he still simps for her, Alicent constantly being a victim of SA and being blamed for it, Alicent going from fierce mom to “here girly, you can have my sons head and everyone else, just don’t kill my sweet neurodivergent princess sweetie pie!” Yeah none of this is good. Tye show had some good moments but I don’t see any way for this to end in a satisfying way. Do people really think meager with teats is gonna make An appearance? Also it’s kinda odd for an actress to demand a lesbian kissing scene with a co worker simply because “it felt right” if a male actor made the same suggestion for no reason it wouldn’t fly. Especially because the worm was talk about her father graping her. Totally bizzare. Alicent has been butchered.
Spot on. This is the rant that was promised 👏
This is an extremely emotionally based rant. Might as well just said you soiled your diapers crying and saved us the time.
@@LCR-iy6xq
By the old gods and the new, fook yeah 💥💣💥
I still don't get why they fucked up B&C, or why the deaths have no weight on the narrative.
However I really like all the secondary characters, they stole the show!
I think it says a lot when the viewer cares more about the secondary characters than the leads of the show. They really did steal the show this season
@@WorldOfWesterosYou're absolutely 100% correct.
It feels like they did Blood and Cheese kinda because they had to because it's in the book. And then they tried to move past it as soon as possible.
Which is massively dissonant with the audience and the books because in any sort of realistic scenario, having your toddler murdered like this would be extremely distressing.
Catelyn showed anguish and cried out in pain when Robb died in front of her. In the show Jaehaerys dies and people just...hell, that Bracken guy cared more about his death than his own mother.
How they handled blood and cheese was my first inkling that I wasn't going to enjoy the show by the end of the season. They've gone beyond taking artistic liberties and are making thier own story, a story of lower quality.
I hope for season 3 Daeron’s ark is great. And I hope we see highgarden
Why high garden? It’s in GOT. I would like to see the Hightower.
@@kb4903Hightower is where Sam tarlys family was in GOT him and gilly went there we seen both highgarden and Hightower in GOT. And it's not really at all important for HOTD
@@mattsavage9960the Tarlys are at Horn Hill, quite a distance from both Oldtown and Highgarden
@@markgleason2078 They went to the Citidel in old town we have already seen it and it's not important to the main story of HOTD
@@mattsavage9960 did we see the Hightower itself in GOT?
Ironically, HOTD has the exact opposite problem GOT had. HBO wanted 10 seasons for GOT and was even pushing for more episodes, but it was Dumb and Dumber who forced the plot rush and limiting of episodes. But with HOTD, HBO is the one forcing limitations onto HOTD and cutting the number of episodes, even with the memory of what happened with GOT.
That’s what makes their decision even more baffling
Because Zaslav is in charge of WarnerMedia now.
No one speak the elephant in the room. The writers imagine they are ferminist by painting the female leads too good, to the extent that they are imaginary and do not exist in real life. (frankly I can’t fathom why rhaenys is comparable to clinton but one writer of the show certainly "interpret" this way - interpretation is alright as long as it is logical to commonfolks) In fact there is nothing ferminist in it. If they had ever respect the ideology they should have just stopped writing all those silly girlboss moments and maintain character consistency.
Mostly everyone knows, from the Audience, Show Runners, writers, producers, directors and HBO, That Episode 8 was the set up for episode 9 The Battle of the Gullet and episode 10 the Fall of Kings Landing💯 They need to Stop Gaslighting the Public! Episode 8 was a Trailer for 9&10, Not the Finale🔥Now we have to wait 2 Years, That Bulls__T. Shame on you HBO🤮
It felt like S5 of game of thrones in terms of quality to me
Yeeep. And we all know what happened after that.
Yeah. The season was kinda weak compared to season 1 but the real issue is the track they've now locked themselves into. There will be issues going ahead, it's clear to see.
Much like Vizzy T, the writers have set up all the domino's to cause their own ruin, and its gonna take a dramatic, heroic level of effort to wright the ship now.
Yes. Not bad as the last season, nowhere near the quality of the first season.
For the Lord commander & the watch !!!
This season wasn’t bad just different then what I expected it to be…
Here here for Brother Bittersteel!!
Some events like the battles of Rooks Rest & the aftermath of blood & cheese was phenomenal..
The moment with the child itself was handled very very well!!!
Even though it was a damn brutal scene..
I didn’t care for How they had Rhaeynera & Alicent talk again at Dragonstone..
The first meeting alone was a bit of a stretch to me anyway…
Other than the way it was paced & some episodes felt empty…
It was a good season…
Seeing Paddy was great !!
He made season 1 so intense with his acting …
I hope next season is better honestly..
Thanks for your review mi’lord
Season 2 started pretty well. Even if I wasn't the biggest fan of some of the choices the showrunners made. And I did really enjoy the Daemon arc.
But the last like, 2-3 episodes. Man they were terrible XD.
And now they're telling me they're saving the Battle of the Gullet for the end of season 3 lmao. They're not gonna have an audience by then at this rate XD.
How information in general, not just someone’s death, is sent between the Greens and Blacks was also an issue. Every episode felt like all the characters watched the last one with us
Yeah you wonder how does each side know what's going on so quickly? Sure, they probably have spies on each side, but who are they? Little birds can acquire a lot of information, but there's stuff that they just can't know. There should be counter- intelligence going on as well. In the books, you read of ravens being shot down to prevent communications from getting out.
Mediocre
Thank you so much for this fair and balanced review, which is refreshingly unbiased and free of all the 'worse than GOT S8' discourse flying about which has become so toxic. Whilst HBO/Warners did do a lot of harm by shortening the season at such short notice, the writers and showrunner were also at fault - the writing, pacing and character beats this season were definitely off, and whilst I enjoyed the season, it really wasn't as well done as S1 and could have been so much better.
Heartily agree with you on the various writers/show runners saying different things about what this or that means. It’s not only confusing but highly unprofessional. The creative team behind the show should be united as one in their vision; how on earth are fans supposed to trust that they can deliver a well thought through show to them if they can’t organise themselves and all understand the intent behind each scene? 🙄🤦♀️
On a less ranty note, very much looking forward to your character arc videos!
Well that's literally the show runner's job. To make sure there is consistency and the episodes, written by different writers, all flow together to tell a cohesive story. Ryan Condal is failing at this.
I think the season is in a weird middle ground, not because its middling quality all the way through, but because just about every single scene is either amazing, or dogcrap, and there is just no inbetween. For every scene like Otto's dismissal, you get a Rhaenyra and Mysaria macking. Its like playing russian roulette with every scene.
Ide love to see a in depth review on aegon
Great as always mi lord
I am hyped for Daeron the Daring, the king who should have been.
I really like your takes here, they're very level headed and I agree with most of them.
I watched your other video about the consequences of moving the Battle of the Gullet to season 3, and now I'm truly concerned for the fate of this show. I fully agree with you that there is no way to do the rest of the story justice with only two more 8-episode seasons.
I would really appreciate your retrospective opinion on season 1 with what we got in season 2 if you have time to make a video on that
I’m on the middle ground there is bad but there also good and no where near season 8 bad.
Yeah me too. It has very good parts like Alys Rivers and very bad like rhaenincent useless scenes
Oh it's nowhere near as bad as season 8. If i had to pick a season of GoT to compare it to it would be season 5, still quite good but starting to see some poorer elements creep in
Having Alicent become Team Black was pretty season 8 though. The season itself was mostly...fine.
It derailed hard in the end.
I agree whit your girlfriend I enjoyed the Rhaenyra and Viserys dreams, the ones about his mother was disgusting. But they truly did drag on
My biggest problem with the show is that the writers hated the Greens from the beginning. There's no moral conflict like in Game of Thrones because the show keeps desperately pointing out that the Blacks are the good guys. There's no morally grey in this show and that's a real diservice to George's fans.
I feel like the pacing and frankly the quality went down from season 1
1st to take the Black for House Blackfyre 🗡 I liked this season overall but there was things that were strange and the final felt empty.
@@aegorbittersteel2154 brother Bittersteel!!!! I feel the same way, 100%
For House Blackfyre ! 🗡️
@jeffcordova9633 great to see you as always my friend. I hope everything is amazing for you!!!!
@christianmartins9629 You are wise I like you
@@aegorbittersteel2154 Will you join the community by playing Daemon Blackfyre with The Cannibal during CK3 AGOT mod dragon’s update ?
It had good moments, yet constant feeling of running in circles over if war will happen or not should’ve ended with Aemond kinslaying.
S2 is sh*t
They massacred Daemons character.
My issue is not with the directors or writers but hbo for not investing in it line GOT
First to take the Black 🖤
Lord commander !!! We have a bit of a wait til The tales of Dunk & egg show premieres.. k say we take a trip across the Seven kingdoms…
@@jeffcordova9633 where too first mi lord?
I quite liked HoTD season 2 but I also did make an active effort to ignore any and all marketing. After GoT I sat down and realised that at some stage hype just gets too much and nothing can live up to it. So I enjoyed it for what it was. Could have been better. Especially that TH-camr they hired (that whole thing was weird) and how they handled Alicents story but overall it was good
S2 is a Mess in writing
You can hire any fan writer and would be better than the whole pacing of the show
Pacing of any Story: Something happens -> grows -> changes -> ends
Now the pacing of the show is quite literally :
Something happens -> nothing -> nothing until episode 4 and 5 -> episode 6 7 = grow and changes -> "ends" in episode 8
Like i dont say Daemon should end his trip in the middle of the season but THERE IS ZERO GROW IN THE DREAMS quite literally Daemon accomplish his goals in TWO EPISODES meanwhile the rest in Harrenhal is FILLER
Same with Rhaenyra until she gets the Dragonseeds you can cut the scenes (obviously you miss Mysaria but literally she does all the work . . .)
Alicent on the other hand she instead of CHANGES AND ENDS is more like subvert expectations so she is an ally of the Black Queen bruH FROM NOTHING SHE IS A GOOD FRIEND
I can believe this show im not mad from the changes from the books but the changes on characters being ASOIAF or any other show, plus the pacing is not slow IS DAMN BAD DIRECTED if all the problems are resolve in ONE OR TWO SCENES
Warner bros is in financial dispair right now, which meant a smaller budget. I think?
i feel like when s3 comes out it will change the way we see it, it still won’t erase its flaws and questionable choices, with that being said it was an ok season, not terrible like or worse than got s8 as some ppl are saying
yep i think if season 3 comes out the gate running, all this will be forgotten, even now when you watch the saeon back as one thing it's not as bad as i felt at first
The problem is as grrm puts it every other writer thinks that when you have great material you can fill the blanks actually you can change and improve it but nooo noo noooo none of the show writers has the capacity to do so they are ruining characters i can tolarete everything put i officially lost my faith when alicent came to dragonstone that conversation showed me that this show is a lost cause
I think HBO and the show runners would’ve been served to have made Season 1 less compressed and made the time jump to start Season 2. Season 2 would’ve been more full as a result.
If they struggled with budget this year, so much will be cut from F &B for the dragon pit scene.
I'm not angry about the season finale. I do think two episodes were missing.
Honestly, I think it’s supposed to feel the way it did. We ended a season that was only meant to be all build up.
The mother of Dany's dragons is Dreamfyre.
while I enjoyed the season it def wasn’t worth the 2 year wait, fans hatin on it as a whole just for the finale like we didn’t have some banger episodes (2 & 4) the only thing I’m hopin from this backlash is that warner bros/ hbo stops cheapin out on this series & give it the budget it deserves to properly adapt
This is a great bideo
There is no middle ground between the extremes, though.
What I mean by that is the show was closer to being a 10/10 than it was to being worse than S8 of GoT. I mean, come on.
S2 was very good. I don't think it falls below an 8/10 overall when you consider the excellent acting, beautiful sets, brilliant special effects and, for the most part, solid writing.
Finally, I believe the whole notion of the 'pacing' -- which I regard as a very nebulous and vague criterium -- being 'bad' to be, for the most part, overblown. Considering that only 8 episodes were granted to the writers, what they accomplished was incredibly coherent.
S1 was like GOT S1-4 roughly in quality, albeit with some bad scenes and the last episode seems to have a big drop in quality compared to the previous episode, but S2 is well on its way to S8 levels of quality.And S3 is gonna by GRRM’s own warnings be worse.Get ready to see character assassination that outdoes even Jaime’s never cared for innocents line in S8 of GOT.
Even if it doesn’t always work you can’t say they didn’t put a lot of effort into this season. Having the episodes cut down and the writers strikes while dealing with such sparse and difficult source material it’s a miracle season 2 was as good as it was.
With a budget keeping them from showing the fall of kingslanding or gullet I’m happy they chose to play safe and hold off until they can do these events justice.
With so much criticism I fear the franchise might collapse. Then the people complaining will get what they deserve. Nothing. At least HBO and the show runners are feeding the ASOIAF fandom (even if it’s not the best material) unlike George’s who’s starving his fans entirely.
I don't really think HBO really care about criticism as long as the show is maintaining viewership and makes money, i think the days where HBO was a beacon of high quality TV is slowly fading in the streaming market. There is a risk of collapsing the TV shows. House Of The Dragon was already the second chance after GoT season 8, it's vital they stick the landing with HOTD and Dunk and Egg is a hit.
If criticism makes the show collapse, then it didn't deserve to be a show to begin with 😅
"With so much criticism I fear the franchise might collapse. Then the people complaining will get what they deserve. Nothing."
Good. Let it collapse. These people (producers) need to learn a lesson. They need to face consequences for hiring incompetent writers who don't respect or appreciate the source material. And the only lesson or consequence they could ever possibly understand is a film or TV show failing. Although clearly they didn't learn anything from the failure of GoT.
At this point, I'm indifferent to further seasons of HotD. I read Fire and Blood up until the Great Council of 101, and then stopped reading because I didn't want any spoilers. But from what I can understand they've changed the story and characters so much that it may as well be a different story. So I've picked up reading it from where I left off. I don't care if they don't make any more. Life is too short to spend it getting invested in a shit TV show.
People like you, who make excuses for bad television/film/writing are part of the problem. Have some standards FFS.
@@J_ads2000 not entirely wrong
Hello there
General Kenobi?
I liked it mostly but that season finale left me underwhelmed. I get the budget constraints and it sucks they were put in that position
My issues aren’t about not enough action its the story telling choices some of the dialogue is amazing some of it is just dumb idk what they are doing honestly cutting out nettles daemons weirwood vision
Beala, Jace, Rhena hell Aegon had way to little to do. Specially Beala had three scenes in the rest she stood in the background, And every storyline of Jace was cut. The north barely seen, The vale cut. the dragon seeds given to Rhaenyra. In the rest he did the Freys and stood around in the background. The Rhena storyline was not a hit. she ran around in the vale and back talked Jayne Arryn. we did not even get the payoff of her taming Sheep stealer or flying. this is what we got instead of Nettels
Loved your analysis as ever Ser. Your learned colleague Talking Thrones released a video several days’ ago discussing the financial woes at HBO which were behind the messed up structure of Season 2 th-cam.com/video/Xt8eXvt6nc4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=52AazDycA21UhjWt . Still, there were so many wonderful scenes in Season 2 - my highlight being the masterful owning of Daemon by the young Oscar Tully at Harrenhal. Matthew Needham continues to be superb as Larys. I loved ‘Fire and Blood’ (I’m a book nerd) and there are many issues I have with the Season but, ho hum, it is a drama…but please no more ‘Rhaenalicent’. I still enjoyed the series hugely. As ever, the music by the superlative Ramin Djawadi was excellent.
Ayyyy
I also really enjoyed season 2, everyone wants all the good shit in one episode. Are we forgetting the shitshow that was GOT season 8?? Rushed is never a good thing. That being said daemons storyline intrigues me most. Bring on the battle above the god's eye.
season 2 of GOT was not at all good. Relation ofArya and Tywin, battle of blackwater were the good ones. Danys vision in the house of undying was not at all good in the books. But Season 3 and Season 4 of GOT was brilliant that overcome the bad ones in Season 2.
I love this show. As a book fan, I was fine with most of the changes made. Some things were disappointing to me but overall I loved most of it and it is one of my favorite shows.
It is overhated. The obsession with so-called writers agenda in hating x character or team is inane.
I’d watch an entire show of my favorite Westeroi getting intensive psychedelic therapy at Harrenhall.
I didn't particularly like Season 1, and thought Season 2 was an improvement, still flawed but better. Too many people got way too excited about how "brilliant" Season 1 was IMHO. If you go into Season 2 with very low expectations, it's pretty good.
I like the part where girls kiss
3 min in and this good people on both sides take is already trash
A big problem with Daemon and that last vision is I think they miss a major point of Martin's work. A lot of it is about subverting fantasy tropes. Jon Snow isn't Aragorn and won't become a great king. Likewise, prophecy and visions are muddied and unclear. People constantly misinterpret them. They may just be stories.
The Prince That Was Promised, Azor Ahai, Last Hero, etc. may not and may never exist. They're similar legends from different regions that may or may not refer to the same people or not. Over thousands of years, those stories would have changed a lot and may not be close to the truth.
Take real world legends. Most cultures have a legend about a great flood of some sort. Some people take that to mean there really was some sort of world wide flood. However, it ignores that most civilizations grew near rivers. Rivers flood often. There are bound to be years where it's much worse than others. Since it's a major lifeline, stories of great flood years will sprout up. Over time, they'll get conflated into one big one. As people spread out, they meet others who have similar stories and assume it refers to the same event.
Martin wants us to remember that it's people's actions and choices that matter, not what magical tree people say they'll do.
Season 2 sucked
I don’t remember where I heard it, but season 2 proper name should be, house of the Dragon-Ons.
I’m actually glad that Alicent isn’t one of those many mothers who blindly ignores or excuses the crimes of her children. Though most from personally finding those mothers annoying than from any writing perspective.
U talking about the same mother who tried to take another kid eye. This not good writing
@@Георг-л5л When Aemond was still a fairly innocent kid who was getting unfairly treated by his father, not a kinslaying mass murderer.
People are dramatic. The show is just as good as Game Of Thrones was. Yes, the ending of season two wasn’t my favorite. It wasn’t BAD. But it wasn’t GREAT. I think that with HBO cutting funding, cutting two episodes, dealing with the writers strike, this season was destined to have some bumps along the way. But I still believe it is solid, and the storylines and character arcs are working well. I say this to those who say it’s worse than GOT…. THIS ISN’T GOT. It’s a completely different storyline. Things are going to be different. Idk. I think the show is really good, and so far I’m pretty much pleased with it all.
It's not a funding and budget problem.. it's a writing/character/pace problem.. smh
@@zazi_555 but… it actually is a budget problem. Which creates the character arc/writing problems your talking about. It was originally going to be 10 episodes. Ryan Condal, and other writers and directors have come out and said, HBO and their parent company told them to shorten it to 8 episodes for “budgetary reasons” and then their financial report came out last week, and HBOs parent company is bleeding money right now and not bringing enough in. They said from day one, this story would be told in 4 seasons. There are possibilities that we may get 10 episodes in the next two seasons and if not, we may get “feature film” length episodes. 🤷🏻♂️
@rymoats6460 S5 levels of good maybe
The whole fan base has become toxic. I have muted every word from HOTD on Twitter.
1:10 no no, i'm right you're wrong, poo poo doo doo go to jail your opinion is illegal brrrp
Anyone that thinks this was as bad as GOT season 8 needs to get those cataracts out their eyes… this season was good… and I find it funny that the same people who didn’t like how the last 2 seasons of GOT are saying that stuff is moving to slow 😂
The season was far from perfect or even early GOT but the season isn’t as bad as people try to make it seem.
Wait what is there not to like about the scene when Daemon let Rhae know he’s with her.
@@lhamarurbina9549 it felt like s5