Fascinating. I love the raw info-dump style presentation. Much to think about. I just pitched bread yeast in a gen. 3 rum wash with 20% muck, blackstrap only, no sugar. As in Gen.2 I boiled the muck, intending to prevent competition with the yeast. I now think that was an error and will add some live muck right away. I did add live muck to the end of Gen. 2 fermentation, but the fermentation was winding down. Supplementing with distillers yeast only got me less than a day of increased activity. It now seems clear that it is the interaction of S. Cerevisiae with competing organisms that leads to those 'island time' fruity expressions. Gen. 1&2 have seen stripping runs only and are predictably less than pleasant, but I can smell and taste the fruit underneath the acetone and heat. Hopefully a flavor boosted Gen.3 will combine with them for a successful spirit run. Question: I saw a post somewhere that refluxing rum for an extended period encourages flavorful ester formation. Typically I run rum twice distilled in pot still mode, I could use a packed column and plates but worry about losing that rum character. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
I could shed some light on your question I believe. Jamaicans use a what is called retort pot still, single and double retort. The retorts are extra buckets filled with low wines from previous runs and while the steam runs over them the increased temperature and alcohol content encourages high ester formation. You could Google double retort pot still to see how it looks. A column still won't work for that. There is also the cousin's process for ester formation which involves creating a huge amount of acidity then creating a salt with liming and then freeing the acid by using sulfuric acid to sub it in the salt . The whole process and many other amazing articles about rum production as well as the whole of Raphael Arroyo's work can be found at bostonapthecary which I highly recommend you take a look at of you are creating rum yourself
How long did you let the Gen. 2 wash sit after adding in the muck? Schizosaccharomyces pombe is also present in the rum fermentations in Jamaica and it's a much slower yeast that saccharomyces cerevisiae, so that also adds to the "island time" fermentation. To answer your question about reflux, you could try a distillation with a packed column, but you would most likely get a cleaner rum rather than a fruiter rum. I'm not sure how much esterification would happen inside the reflux, but my gut tells me that a lot more fruity flavors were made during fermentation. @greedman465 is right that the double retort pot still helps with harnessing the funky flavors of high-ester rums. Does your still have a thumper? If so, you could try loading that up with dunder to pull out more flavors! If not, I would suggest running the still slowly to try and get a good separation of the acetone flavors from the fruity flavors. And yes, definitely check out the articles on Boston Apothecary! There are some great deep dives over there!
@@RobynSmithPhD Gen 2 distillation had stopped when I got to it, pH 5.0 and no discernable sweetness. 24 hours after adding live muck I saw no activity and stripped it. I could have waited but was anxious to run a Gen 3 with live muck and other fermenters were in use. Gen 3 is perking along happily now. I had been reading about Schizosaccharomyces pombe, but it is a bit hard to find. Greedman's post and reading about double retorts got me thinking. No, I have no thumper, might make one, but I think I could get the same interaction in a column with one or two plates and a packed column. I could place containers (borosilicate test tubes) of various low wines/dunder/muck mixtures immediately above the top plate, embedded in the packing, and above the deflag condenser. Alternately the retort fluid could be manually injected at the top of the packing. Many, many variables here. and getting a couple thumpers would certainly be cheaper. Unfortunately Boston Apothecary has been compromised. Norton antivirus warned me but I went anyway, bring careful-ish. I got several papers but then encountered a legit looking PDF link that launched and executable and tried to open a command prompt. Hopefully someone will restore the site.
I'm excited to hear how Gen 3 turns out! I would say give the spirit run a try with just the pot still and see how it turns out! Depending on the results, you can play around with adding a thumper or modifying your distillation method. Take it slow, especially at the beginning, to adequately separate the acetone notes from the fruitier flavors.
Thank you for your all your research I am going nuts on it making crazy rum my muck pit is on steroids with all the beautiful smells it is making and the rum new make is so good.
I'm not distracted easilaaaoooohh! The cat sees a bird! Is there also a way of adding the fatty acids in a different way than through dunder/muck? i.e. could I throw a stick of butter in there to provide the yeast with MCTs? I got zero (bio)technological knowledge, so I'm just throwing a random thought out there.
Great question! Yes! There are a few options here. I have actually heard of some distillers adding small quantities of commercial carboxylic acids to their fermentations instead of dunder/muck... aka artificial muck. This is a way to have control over which carboxylic acids and how much of each is in your wash. You could also opt for an extended fermentation time and/or increase the fermentation temperature. These are natural ways to encourage the yeast to produce more carboxylic acids (and therefore esters). Choosing yeast that is known for producing high ester concentrations also could help. Now, could you add butter? Well, maybe! Butter contains some MCTs and MCTs are made up of medium chain fatty acids (MCFAs). So in theory, if the yeast can break down the MCTs, you would get MCFAs! In order for that to happen the yeast needs to contain the necessary enzymes (lipase) to hydrolyze the MCTs. According to a paper published in 2020 in Mycology, Candida spp., Pichia spp., and Saccharomyces cerevisiae are all examples of lipolytic yeast species! I can't guarantee that all of the MCTs will be hydrolyzed into MCFAs by the yeast though and the composition of the MCTs will impact the MFCAs that you get. So I'm not sure how much you would want to add and what the exact outcome would be. And adding butter might add some off-flavors (like diacetyl) to the rum. You could try adding MCT oil! Again, I don't know how much and what the resulting flavors would be. Keep in mind, more carboxylic acids doesn't mean better... too many MCFAs can be toxic to yeast. Let me know if you try any of these methods and what the outcome is!
Amazing video, really loved the analysis. The double retort pot still plays a huge role on ester production doesnt it though? I liked the insight into yeast-bacteria cofermentation! Arroyo suggested the use of oedium suaveolens and clostridium saccharo butyricum along with s. Pombe to increase the creation of rum oil(the unseen quality for some)(some research i think indicates rum oil is rose ketones)
Thanks so much! The double retort definitely impacts the flavors, however, I like to think of it more so as harnessing the esters produced during fermentation rather than creating esters. Of course, this is an oversimplification, but I think the amount of esterification reactions occurring during distillation is minimal compared to the amount occurring during fermentation. And you're right, there are other congeners produced during fermentation that I didn't discuss here that also impact the rum flavor profile!
@@RobynSmithPhD interesting. In most situations I would agree but some higher than thou in ester rums I can't seem to fathom how these esters could be produced just from fermentation. I am talking about some 1200-1600gr/hla. I will try and find the article from Stephen that describes the cousin's process created to produce higher than high ester rums when the tax on Germany went through the roof. To be honest I haven't yet put it to the test but I believe you will find it interesting. I hope TH-cam doesn't remove the link. If it does just go in bostonapothecary and find the article about cousin's process
I've briefly read about Cousins's process, but I'll go check out the full post on Boston Apothecary! From what I know about it, I don't believe this method is practiced by distilleries producing high-ester rums nowadays, but I could be wrong. I think rums with a super high ester count (like the DOK mark from Hampden) are produced from a fermentation that pulls out all the stops, meaning the fermentation includes dunder, muck, really long fermentation times, and spontaneous fermentation. It's super inefficient with respect to ethanol production, however, results in a lot of congeners. And then as you mentioned above, distillation is done in a way to harness all those congeners. The use of the low-wines and high-wines in the retorts adds to the concentration of the congeners. I have the BA post pulled up right now, so I'll read through that and will let you know what I think!
Do you have any thoughts about the relation or importance of specific proteins in a rum wash? My thoughts are these proteins, once fermented, would yield higher alcohols. These higher alcohols being building blocks for high value acetate esters. And maybe, important for utilizing the surplus of acetic acid produced in these funky ferments too.
You're right! Proteins can break down into amino acids and certain amino acids can break down into higher alcohols via the Ehrlich pathway. This will certainly have an impact on the flavor profile. But I haven't looked into the protein/amino acid concentration in molasses. It could be interesting to dive into!
@@RobynSmithPhD yeah it's really interesting! I've found some articles concerning wine fermentations. The amino acids mostly talked about regarding aroma, are isoleucine, leucine, valine, phenylalanine, and threonine. Seems like they found that the addition of amino acids greatly increased both acetate esters and fatty acid ethyl esters. Interesting to think about, especially when Scott labs is coming out with tailored yeast nutrients. Sounds like they are looking at specific amino acids metabolites and customizing a blend for Chardonnay, Cab etc. Also sotolon, which might play an important roll in rum, is thought to come from threonine, transforming into a-ketobutyric acid then reacting with acetaldehyde.
@@RobynSmithPhDTH-cam seems to be a little squirrelly about posting links..... so I sent a few links to you in an Instagram message. Also included an interesting one about high solids wine fermentation (Lipids).
Super interesting! I´m really glad that I stumbled over your channel :) Even though a lot of it is total greek to me (I´m swedish) it is still interesting and gives me at least some deeper understanding of the estery goodness. But one thing I started thinking about, even if you use the same yeast, the same recipe and keep the environment the same every time you ferment, you are still not guaranteed to have the same amount and type of esters every time. Correct/False? Do you know or what is your thoughts about it?
Thanks so much! I'm happy to hear you're enjoying my content! That's a great question! In theory, if you kept everything the same, and I mean every single itty bitty variable, you should get the same ester production. BUT in practice, that won't be the case... you'll most likely get close enough to the same ester production, but there will be some natural variance.
Thanks that was about the answer I was expecting :) But then once you find your own golden combination of variables you should be able to reproduce the results at least somewhat every time even if you have to go and buy a new yeast packet for each new fermentation. Are there any of the known yeasts out there that you have had extra estery results with?@@RobynSmithPhD
That's a great question! I haven't played around with using different strains of yeast too much for my spirits. There are so many options though once you start diving into it. You should be able to search your yeast supplier's database for various high-ester-producing yeast. Kveik has been recommended to me a couple times... this is a blend of yeast strains used in Norwegian brewing. But I have yet to play around with it.
I haven´t played around much either, I have actually mostly used bakers yeast since I read that bakers yeast are being fed by molasses while cultivating. And since I mostly make rum that seemed logical. But my theory is that even if you use the exact same yeast, the ester production still wont necessarily be the same. But I have been planning to do a couple of side by side tests and trying to keep everything as identical as possible except for the yeast :)@@RobynSmithPhD
Yeah, you're right! Baker's yeast is propagated using molasses. And even if you're using baker's yeast for each batch, there will be some slight variation in ester production... will it be noticeable? Maybe, maybe not. It'll depend on variations in environmental conditions and fermentation times. Let me know what yeasts you end up trying out! I'd love to hear the results of those experiments!
Great explanations, and I know from other vids you are not only theoretical busy , but ferment and distill your own experiments, what is great.So back to this vid and yeast, maybe a idea to set up a experiment with some Kveik yeast like Hornindal from white labs ,as kveik has more strains with benefits up to 8 some even up to 10 ,furher they produce less off flavors,can handle high tempertures like 35 dgrs C , I reached during ferment 37 dgrs C all by itself, and it can handle high alcohol levels, they are producing plenty of esters. What do you think about introducing the muck into the spirit run In stead of to the fermentation ? And what do you think about eventualy toxins in muck ? And did you use sugar cane vinigar into the spirit run ,jf yes how much ? I can make this post 10 times longer , but thats rum , there are so many variables and ways. Cheers C
Thanks so much! I'm glad to hear you're enjoying my videos! Kveik yeast would be really cool to experiment with, so I plan to do that at some point in the future! I've heard that some people will add dunder or muck into the still during distillation. I think that if you have very fruity-smelling dunder/muck, then that could work really well! But if you're dunder/muck is very acidic, I would consider adding it into the fermentation a handful of days prior to distillation and before fermentation stops to allow for the carboxylic acids to esterify. I believe there is some esterification that occurs during distillation, however, I think it is much less than what occurs during fermentation. What kind of toxins are you concerned about in muck? It is possible that there are harmful bacteria in a muck pit, so I do not recommend drinking it! However, once it is distilled, it's completely safe. I didn't use any cane vinegar in my fermentation or any part of the distillation. Thanks for all your questions!
@@RobynSmithPhD Thanks for your answers. Personally, I think the other way around, add fruity to the fermentation, and smell like poop due to butyric acid in the spirit run, but I cannot give proof for this, this is purely based on all the information read, in any case, some time is needed in the spirit run for the alcohol to react with the acids. As far as tocins are concerned, think of something like botulism, the bacteria do denature at 70 degrees Celsius, but the spores only denature at 130 degrees Celsius, which can also play a role in the preparation of vegetables, but in practice there are few incidents. But perhaps denaturation takes place due to the alcohol. In any case, I remain careful, and wear gloves. You used a closed bucket for the muck, an open bucket with a screen against insects can also be considered. About honindal, I took top crop at the first ferment , so maybe thats a idea. Cheers C
Interesting... where are you getting the information that suggests adding fruity dunder to the fermentation and acidic dunder to the spirit run? Have you tried this yourself? I'd like to read more about this! If you're concerned about botulism, the botulinum toxin is a protein, which means that even if clostridium botulinum is present in the muck, it will not make it through distillation into the spirit. As I mentioned, I wouldn't recommend drinking dunder or muck, but your spirit will be perfectly safe! And yes, use safe handling practices just in case!
@@RobynSmithPhD There is a lot of info on that on Home distillers Usa forum , but also on the Russian Home distillers forum , translation it is easy with Chrome brouwser.I read a lot on the Russian forum by the way,there is a lot of knowledge there. Further we have a Dutch forum with plenty of Rum experiments........but I'am not in for experiments like with adding sulferic acid, as I like to keep it more natural. In the past I only did clean rum ferments,so this is kind of ferments are new for me too. I made all kind of stuff over a period of 40 years mostly fruit and grains ,however that is not a guarantee that you know everthing 😃 so for now Hornindal kveik and muck is a new learning moment. You can alsi find nice info on the you tube channel called still behind the bench , more theoratical than practical explanation there.
Great video. Love a funky rum!
Thanks so much!
Fascinating. I love the raw info-dump style presentation. Much to think about.
I just pitched bread yeast in a gen. 3 rum wash with 20% muck, blackstrap only, no sugar. As in Gen.2 I boiled the muck, intending to prevent competition with the yeast. I now think that was an error and will add some live muck right away.
I did add live muck to the end of Gen. 2 fermentation, but the fermentation was winding down. Supplementing with distillers yeast only got me less than a day of increased activity. It now seems clear that it is the interaction of S. Cerevisiae with competing organisms that leads to those 'island time' fruity expressions.
Gen. 1&2 have seen stripping runs only and are predictably less than pleasant, but I can smell and taste the fruit underneath the acetone and heat. Hopefully a flavor boosted Gen.3 will combine with them for a successful spirit run.
Question: I saw a post somewhere that refluxing rum for an extended period encourages flavorful ester formation. Typically I run rum twice distilled in pot still mode, I could use a packed column and plates but worry about losing that rum character. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
I could shed some light on your question I believe. Jamaicans use a what is called retort pot still, single and double retort. The retorts are extra buckets filled with low wines from previous runs and while the steam runs over them the increased temperature and alcohol content encourages high ester formation. You could Google double retort pot still to see how it looks. A column still won't work for that.
There is also the cousin's process for ester formation which involves creating a huge amount of acidity then creating a salt with liming and then freeing the acid by using sulfuric acid to sub it in the salt .
The whole process and many other amazing articles about rum production as well as the whole of Raphael Arroyo's work can be found at bostonapthecary which I highly recommend you take a look at of you are creating rum yourself
@@Greedman456 Thanks for this reply. I see that I will be spending the weekend reading!
How long did you let the Gen. 2 wash sit after adding in the muck? Schizosaccharomyces pombe is also present in the rum fermentations in Jamaica and it's a much slower yeast that saccharomyces cerevisiae, so that also adds to the "island time" fermentation.
To answer your question about reflux, you could try a distillation with a packed column, but you would most likely get a cleaner rum rather than a fruiter rum. I'm not sure how much esterification would happen inside the reflux, but my gut tells me that a lot more fruity flavors were made during fermentation. @greedman465 is right that the double retort pot still helps with harnessing the funky flavors of high-ester rums. Does your still have a thumper? If so, you could try loading that up with dunder to pull out more flavors! If not, I would suggest running the still slowly to try and get a good separation of the acetone flavors from the fruity flavors.
And yes, definitely check out the articles on Boston Apothecary! There are some great deep dives over there!
@@RobynSmithPhD Gen 2 distillation had stopped when I got to it, pH 5.0 and no discernable sweetness. 24 hours after adding live muck I saw no activity and stripped it. I could have waited but was anxious to run a Gen 3 with live muck and other fermenters were in use. Gen 3 is perking along happily now. I had been reading about Schizosaccharomyces pombe, but it is a bit hard to find.
Greedman's post and reading about double retorts got me thinking. No, I have no thumper, might make one, but I think I could get the same interaction in a column with one or two plates and a packed column. I could place containers (borosilicate test tubes) of various low wines/dunder/muck mixtures immediately above the top plate, embedded in the packing, and above the deflag condenser. Alternately the retort fluid could be manually injected at the top of the packing. Many, many variables here. and getting a couple thumpers would certainly be cheaper.
Unfortunately Boston Apothecary has been compromised. Norton antivirus warned me but I went anyway, bring careful-ish. I got several papers but then encountered a legit looking PDF link that launched and executable and tried to open a command prompt. Hopefully someone will restore the site.
I'm excited to hear how Gen 3 turns out!
I would say give the spirit run a try with just the pot still and see how it turns out! Depending on the results, you can play around with adding a thumper or modifying your distillation method. Take it slow, especially at the beginning, to adequately separate the acetone notes from the fruitier flavors.
Hi thanks for the lovely presentation. I have a question: How do we measure the Esther quantity in my rum sample?
Great question! You’d have to send your rum sample to a lab that is equipped with analytical tools capable of measuring esters (like GCMS).
Thank you for your all your research I am going nuts on it making crazy rum my muck pit is on steroids with all the beautiful smells it is making and the rum new make is so good.
That's awesome! What do you have in your muck pit? How much are you adding to your rum washes?
I'm not distracted easilaaaoooohh! The cat sees a bird!
Is there also a way of adding the fatty acids in a different way than through dunder/muck? i.e. could I throw a stick of butter in there to provide the yeast with MCTs?
I got zero (bio)technological knowledge, so I'm just throwing a random thought out there.
Great question! Yes! There are a few options here. I have actually heard of some distillers adding small quantities of commercial carboxylic acids to their fermentations instead of dunder/muck... aka artificial muck. This is a way to have control over which carboxylic acids and how much of each is in your wash.
You could also opt for an extended fermentation time and/or increase the fermentation temperature. These are natural ways to encourage the yeast to produce more carboxylic acids (and therefore esters). Choosing yeast that is known for producing high ester concentrations also could help.
Now, could you add butter? Well, maybe! Butter contains some MCTs and MCTs are made up of medium chain fatty acids (MCFAs). So in theory, if the yeast can break down the MCTs, you would get MCFAs! In order for that to happen the yeast needs to contain the necessary enzymes (lipase) to hydrolyze the MCTs. According to a paper published in 2020 in Mycology, Candida spp., Pichia spp., and Saccharomyces cerevisiae are all examples of lipolytic yeast species! I can't guarantee that all of the MCTs will be hydrolyzed into MCFAs by the yeast though and the composition of the MCTs will impact the MFCAs that you get. So I'm not sure how much you would want to add and what the exact outcome would be. And adding butter might add some off-flavors (like diacetyl) to the rum. You could try adding MCT oil! Again, I don't know how much and what the resulting flavors would be. Keep in mind, more carboxylic acids doesn't mean better... too many MCFAs can be toxic to yeast.
Let me know if you try any of these methods and what the outcome is!
Amazing video, really loved the analysis. The double retort pot still plays a huge role on ester production doesnt it though?
I liked the insight into yeast-bacteria cofermentation! Arroyo suggested the use of oedium suaveolens and clostridium saccharo butyricum along with s. Pombe to increase the creation of rum oil(the unseen quality for some)(some research i think indicates rum oil is rose ketones)
Thanks so much! The double retort definitely impacts the flavors, however, I like to think of it more so as harnessing the esters produced during fermentation rather than creating esters. Of course, this is an oversimplification, but I think the amount of esterification reactions occurring during distillation is minimal compared to the amount occurring during fermentation. And you're right, there are other congeners produced during fermentation that I didn't discuss here that also impact the rum flavor profile!
@@RobynSmithPhD interesting. In most situations I would agree but some higher than thou in ester rums I can't seem to fathom how these esters could be produced just from fermentation. I am talking about some 1200-1600gr/hla. I will try and find the article from Stephen that describes the cousin's process created to produce higher than high ester rums when the tax on Germany went through the roof. To be honest I haven't yet put it to the test but I believe you will find it interesting. I hope TH-cam doesn't remove the link. If it does just go in bostonapothecary and find the article about cousin's process
I've briefly read about Cousins's process, but I'll go check out the full post on Boston Apothecary! From what I know about it, I don't believe this method is practiced by distilleries producing high-ester rums nowadays, but I could be wrong. I think rums with a super high ester count (like the DOK mark from Hampden) are produced from a fermentation that pulls out all the stops, meaning the fermentation includes dunder, muck, really long fermentation times, and spontaneous fermentation. It's super inefficient with respect to ethanol production, however, results in a lot of congeners. And then as you mentioned above, distillation is done in a way to harness all those congeners. The use of the low-wines and high-wines in the retorts adds to the concentration of the congeners. I have the BA post pulled up right now, so I'll read through that and will let you know what I think!
Do you have any thoughts about the relation or importance of specific proteins in a rum wash? My thoughts are these proteins, once fermented, would yield higher alcohols. These higher alcohols being building blocks for high value acetate esters. And maybe, important for utilizing the surplus of acetic acid produced in these funky ferments too.
You're right! Proteins can break down into amino acids and certain amino acids can break down into higher alcohols via the Ehrlich pathway. This will certainly have an impact on the flavor profile. But I haven't looked into the protein/amino acid concentration in molasses. It could be interesting to dive into!
@@RobynSmithPhD yeah it's really interesting! I've found some articles concerning wine fermentations. The amino acids mostly talked about regarding aroma, are isoleucine, leucine, valine, phenylalanine, and threonine. Seems like they found that the addition of amino acids greatly increased both acetate esters and fatty acid ethyl esters. Interesting to think about, especially when Scott labs is coming out with tailored yeast nutrients. Sounds like they are looking at specific amino acids metabolites and customizing a blend for Chardonnay, Cab etc. Also sotolon, which might play an important roll in rum, is thought to come from threonine, transforming into a-ketobutyric acid then reacting with acetaldehyde.
That's interesting! Could you send me links to those articles? I'd be interested to check them out!
@@RobynSmithPhDTH-cam seems to be a little squirrelly about posting links..... so I sent a few links to you in an Instagram message. Also included an interesting one about high solids wine fermentation (Lipids).
@@jessealexander4329 Thanks so much for sending those over!
Super interesting! I´m really glad that I stumbled over your channel :) Even though a lot of it is total greek to me (I´m swedish) it is still interesting and gives me at least some deeper understanding of the estery goodness.
But one thing I started thinking about, even if you use the same yeast, the same recipe and keep the environment the same every time you ferment, you are still not guaranteed to have the same amount and type of esters every time. Correct/False? Do you know or what is your thoughts about it?
Thanks so much! I'm happy to hear you're enjoying my content! That's a great question! In theory, if you kept everything the same, and I mean every single itty bitty variable, you should get the same ester production. BUT in practice, that won't be the case... you'll most likely get close enough to the same ester production, but there will be some natural variance.
Thanks that was about the answer I was expecting :) But then once you find your own golden combination of variables you should be able to reproduce the results at least somewhat every time even if you have to go and buy a new yeast packet for each new fermentation.
Are there any of the known yeasts out there that you have had extra estery results with?@@RobynSmithPhD
That's a great question! I haven't played around with using different strains of yeast too much for my spirits. There are so many options though once you start diving into it. You should be able to search your yeast supplier's database for various high-ester-producing yeast. Kveik has been recommended to me a couple times... this is a blend of yeast strains used in Norwegian brewing. But I have yet to play around with it.
I haven´t played around much either, I have actually mostly used bakers yeast since I read that bakers yeast are being fed by molasses while cultivating. And since I mostly make rum that seemed logical. But my theory is that even if you use the exact same yeast, the ester production still wont necessarily be the same.
But I have been planning to do a couple of side by side tests and trying to keep everything as identical as possible except for the yeast :)@@RobynSmithPhD
Yeah, you're right! Baker's yeast is propagated using molasses. And even if you're using baker's yeast for each batch, there will be some slight variation in ester production... will it be noticeable? Maybe, maybe not. It'll depend on variations in environmental conditions and fermentation times. Let me know what yeasts you end up trying out! I'd love to hear the results of those experiments!
Great explanations, and I know from other vids you are not only theoretical busy , but ferment and distill your own experiments, what is great.So back to this vid and yeast, maybe a idea to set up a experiment with some Kveik yeast like Hornindal from white labs ,as kveik has more strains with benefits up to 8 some even up to 10 ,furher they produce less off flavors,can handle high tempertures like 35 dgrs C , I reached during ferment 37 dgrs C all by itself, and it can handle high alcohol levels, they are producing plenty of esters.
What do you think about introducing the muck into the spirit run In stead of to the fermentation ? And what do you think about eventualy toxins in muck ?
And did you use sugar cane vinigar into the spirit run ,jf yes how much ?
I can make this post 10 times longer , but thats rum , there are so many variables and ways.
Cheers C
Thanks so much! I'm glad to hear you're enjoying my videos! Kveik yeast would be really cool to experiment with, so I plan to do that at some point in the future!
I've heard that some people will add dunder or muck into the still during distillation. I think that if you have very fruity-smelling dunder/muck, then that could work really well! But if you're dunder/muck is very acidic, I would consider adding it into the fermentation a handful of days prior to distillation and before fermentation stops to allow for the carboxylic acids to esterify. I believe there is some esterification that occurs during distillation, however, I think it is much less than what occurs during fermentation.
What kind of toxins are you concerned about in muck? It is possible that there are harmful bacteria in a muck pit, so I do not recommend drinking it! However, once it is distilled, it's completely safe.
I didn't use any cane vinegar in my fermentation or any part of the distillation.
Thanks for all your questions!
@@RobynSmithPhD Thanks for your answers.
Personally, I think the other way around, add fruity to the fermentation, and smell like poop due to butyric acid in the spirit run, but I cannot give proof for this, this is purely based on all the information read, in any case, some time is needed in the spirit run for the alcohol to react with the acids.
As far as tocins are concerned, think of something like botulism, the bacteria do denature at 70 degrees Celsius, but the spores only denature at 130 degrees Celsius, which can also play a role in the preparation of vegetables, but in practice there are few incidents. But perhaps denaturation takes place due to the alcohol.
In any case, I remain careful, and wear gloves.
You used a closed bucket for the muck, an open bucket with a screen against insects can also be considered.
About honindal, I took top crop at the first ferment , so maybe thats a idea.
Cheers C
Interesting... where are you getting the information that suggests adding fruity dunder to the fermentation and acidic dunder to the spirit run? Have you tried this yourself? I'd like to read more about this!
If you're concerned about botulism, the botulinum toxin is a protein, which means that even if clostridium botulinum is present in the muck, it will not make it through distillation into the spirit. As I mentioned, I wouldn't recommend drinking dunder or muck, but your spirit will be perfectly safe! And yes, use safe handling practices just in case!
@@RobynSmithPhD There is a lot of info on that on Home distillers Usa forum , but also on the Russian Home distillers forum , translation it is easy with Chrome brouwser.I read a lot on the Russian forum by the way,there is a lot of knowledge there.
Further we have a Dutch forum with plenty of Rum experiments........but I'am not in for experiments like with adding sulferic acid, as I like to keep it more natural.
In the past I only did clean rum ferments,so this is kind of ferments are new for me too.
I made all kind of stuff over a period of 40 years mostly fruit and grains ,however that is not a guarantee that you know everthing 😃 so for now Hornindal kveik and muck is a new learning moment.
You can alsi find nice info on the you tube channel called still behind the bench , more theoratical than practical explanation there.
_(slow clap)_
o no! Tom the whiskey fund manager found a potential new lead?
@@Greedman456 There's a reason why you can't find Hampden's Endemic Birds anywhere 😂