I really appreciate you making the video! How has this been performing over the 6 years since you posted the video? I am insulating a pole-barn structure and have been trying to figure out the best method to do so. Is there anything you'd recommend doing difference from what you show in the video having the 6 years of hindsight? Thanks,
Hell yeah just dug in some foam at my new home and people thought I was nuts. I went 1 ft down 1 ft out... maybe should have went 2 and 2.. either way great technique man
I had a metal piece made 4 inch down, 2 inch out and 10 down to protect the foam... azek piece sits on the Z and siding starts on the board for a starter kick
I was thinking of protecting the top of the foam, but nothing gets close to.it and that foam doesn't degrade that bad. Funny how people don't understand it and even telling them to fact check they still don't want to learn! Thanks for watching
@@JasonTH-cam so the top edges of the foam just stay exposed? How did you dig around the perimeter? By hand or can a mini get in? I am ready for the foam but havnt seen a video doing it witht the walls up.
@@toddt8446 I dug it by hand, but any skilled mini operator could do.it. you could even use a skidsteer , just more lawn damage/repair needed. Top edges can be exposed or buried depending on what you use for a border around building. You can even bend metal over it if you wish, basically up to you. I will probably bend flashing or use metal trim over top on mine, just haven't got around to it. Thanks for watching
What did you do to dig the perimeter? Backhoe? And did you do it after building was up? I’m building a shop now and i’m concerned about how difficult it’s going to be to dig out for the insulation.
I dug it out by hand, but this was sand so easier to dig. It was my exercise for a few weeks! Building was put up when I did it. You could use a backhoe , just be careful so you don't hit siding
@@HathawaysAdventures Are you doing a Thermal mass setup? If you are just laying tube in concrete , then you don't need the insulation on sides , just insulate underneath your slab like a normal radiant floor.
Jason the codes guy told me i needed the frost perimeter but the engineer said it will do more harm than good loosening up the ground around the building and is engineering the same way he does everything else with only an 8” on the perimeter extending only 2” below the floor insulation. Codes guy says if he stamps it i can run it so we will see
They attach to the posts, and I used a 16" piece inside that is attached to skirt board. This prevents outside sheet from bowing in and covers up the gap between skirt board and outside foam board
@@JasonTH-cam thanks sir! I like also how you did under the garage doors, which I may do. Did you have any garages exceeding the span of an 8’ sheet and if so how did you cope with keeping these together?
@@tlamay1 I just used a ground stake and screwed foam board to that. Once the dirt is on both sides, it won't move. Also you need to make sure foam board is down enough to allow your full concrete depth above it so it won't crack when you drive over it. You will have slight heat loss but that heat loss will allow your garage door seals to never freeze up.
I wouldn't have put the foam horizontally on the ground as the water will have a hard time draining and possible pooling.. I would just surround it with wheeping tile and it should be good to go.
The foam is there for frost protection. So either I had to go 4 ft down with it or go 2 ft down and 2 ft over to prevent frost from creeping under slab for the Heat Mass. If you don't live in a cold climate then you wouldn't have to do the 2 ft horizontal as frost wouldn't be an issue. Thanks for watching
For a Thermal Mass Installation, the sand acts as concrete and retains the heat. Since the radiant tubes are actually 10-12" below the concrete and embedded in sand, then it would be hard to install foam and you would lose the thermal mass. Think of a big rock vs small rock. Small rock heats up fast but loses heat fast. A big rock heats up slowly but that rock will retain heat longer then small rocks. Thats what this slab/ sand floor does. Hopefully I won't need Ac in summer due to the earth cooling the slab , if I use foam then it wouldn't do that. Thanks
@@joemonroe9456 No I don't, maybe 5-10% . Thermal mass builds are designed this way and many studies show these builds. If I was losing half to ground then that would mean anyone would be able to build a 3200 sq ft building and heat it for $30-$40 A month in Minnesota! Who would use stick frame anymore for homes! I have compared my heating to others using slab insulation, and I pay less then they do. Thermal mass benefits because it gets me through subzero days without running, then gets recharged during above zero days so use less energy to heat slab and ground. Usually happens that way unless have week of subzero weather. Thanks for watching
@@JasonTH-cam You are partly correct. If you don't heat your building and just let it gain heat from the ground then you are correct, but not if you heat the building. Depends on the differential temperatures, insulation values and square footage of each section. Take my garage as an example: R values are 60 for ceiling, 24 for walls, and 1 (this is generous) for 5 inches of concrete. Assuming a ground temp of 50F, outside temp of 30F and maintaining building temp at 70F The equation is differential temp X square feet divided by R value. The heat loss through the floor is almost 3x the loss through the walls and ceiling. And assuming R-value of .5 doubles the loss through the floor. The closer you keep the building to ground temp the more heat loss you have through the walls/ceiling compared to the floor.
Hi, just watched several of your pole barn videos. Good stuff. Any update on how the heated floors are doing with the sandbed? Also, I see at 4:18 that you did not disturb the dirt around the posts. If you did not add insulation around the posts, wouldn't that create a thermal bridge? I'm not challenging your work, I'm just trying to learn how to do this because our family will be building a pole barn home in MT.
It would, but I did the outside and covered the posts with insulation. You can see where the posts are because the white washers are holding it to them. ( around 1:36 ) I did cut and butt up the sheets to each post so there is a gap on outside that I went back and joined with foam board sealant. So basically the wood post thickness of 6" has some R-value and the outside foam board creates R 7.5 and thermal break. I actually have been busy so I haven't got the heat on yet. Hopefully beginning of year as it is ready for the black pipe as gas meter is in and will need city to inspect it .
I got most of the barn insulated in March and my bill was around $120 for heating. That was minnesota weather of having negative days and therm cost of $ .73 cents total including fees. In April, the bill was only $80. There were days where the radiant wouldn't turn on for 3-4 days due to the thermal mass. I can run it at lower gas consumption to keep thermal mass "Charged". So around $100-$120 a month in Minnesota weather for a 3200 Sq ft building with 2- 12x10 garage doors & 12 ft ceilings . That is pretty good! comparable to the avg bill of a 40 x40 building in minnesota with radiant. Now I'm hoping the thermal mass will help cool it in summer!
I really appreciate you making the video! How has this been performing over the 6 years since you posted the video? I am insulating a pole-barn structure and have been trying to figure out the best method to do so. Is there anything you'd recommend doing difference from what you show in the video having the 6 years of hindsight?
Thanks,
Hell yeah just dug in some foam at my new home and people thought I was nuts. I went 1 ft down 1 ft out... maybe should have went 2 and 2.. either way great technique man
I had a metal piece made 4 inch down, 2 inch out and 10 down to protect the foam... azek piece sits on the Z and siding starts on the board for a starter kick
I was thinking of protecting the top of the foam, but nothing gets close to.it and that foam doesn't degrade that bad. Funny how people don't understand it and even telling them to fact check they still don't want to learn! Thanks for watching
@@JasonTH-cam so the top edges of the foam just stay exposed? How did you dig around the perimeter? By hand or can a mini get in? I am ready for the foam but havnt seen a video doing it witht the walls up.
@@toddt8446 I dug it by hand, but any skilled mini operator could do.it. you could even use a skidsteer , just more lawn damage/repair needed. Top edges can be exposed or buried depending on what you use for a border around building. You can even bend metal over it if you wish, basically up to you. I will probably bend flashing or use metal trim over top on mine, just haven't got around to it. Thanks for watching
Excellent video
Glad you liked it , Thanks for watching them
Is there any movement in the building from digging?
No, since the concrete footing pads are about 6-8 ft down and 6x6 poles sit on those. Going down 2 to 4ft won't cause any problems
Helps a lot Buddy thank you
Glad to help, Thanks for watching
What did you do to dig the perimeter? Backhoe? And did you do it after building was up? I’m building a shop now and i’m concerned about how difficult it’s going to be to dig out for the insulation.
I dug it out by hand, but this was sand so easier to dig. It was my exercise for a few weeks! Building was put up when I did it. You could use a backhoe , just be careful so you don't hit siding
Jason yeah that’s my concern is hitting the siding or posts. The shop will only be 30X40 but it’s hard clay about 8” down so it’s gonna be a fun time
@@HathawaysAdventures Are you doing a Thermal mass setup? If you are just laying tube in concrete , then you don't need the insulation on sides , just insulate underneath your slab like a normal radiant floor.
Jason the codes guy told me i needed the frost perimeter but the engineer said it will do more harm than good loosening up the ground around the building and is engineering the same way he does everything else with only an 8” on the perimeter extending only 2” below the floor insulation. Codes guy says if he stamps it i can run it so we will see
The exterior / outside foam boards, what are they attached to?
They attach to the posts, and I used a 16" piece inside that is attached to skirt board. This prevents outside sheet from bowing in and covers up the gap between skirt board and outside foam board
@@JasonTH-cam thanks sir! I like also how you did under the garage doors, which I may do. Did you have any garages exceeding the span of an 8’ sheet and if so how did you cope with keeping these together?
@@tlamay1 I just used a ground stake and screwed foam board to that. Once the dirt is on both sides, it won't move. Also you need to make sure foam board is down enough to allow your full concrete depth above it so it won't crack when you drive over it. You will have slight heat loss but that heat loss will allow your garage door seals to never freeze up.
Very cool
Thanks for watching the videos
I wouldn't have put the foam horizontally on the ground as the water will have a hard time draining and possible pooling.. I would just surround it with wheeping tile and it should be good to go.
The foam is there for frost protection. So either I had to go 4 ft down with it or go 2 ft down and 2 ft over to prevent frost from creeping under slab for the Heat Mass. If you don't live in a cold climate then you wouldn't have to do the 2 ft horizontal as frost wouldn't be an issue. Thanks for watching
a layer of foam under the slab would be money well spent
For a Thermal Mass Installation, the sand acts as concrete and retains the heat. Since the radiant tubes are actually 10-12" below the concrete and embedded in sand, then it would be hard to install foam and you would lose the thermal mass. Think of a big rock vs small rock. Small rock heats up fast but loses heat fast. A big rock heats up slowly but that rock will retain heat longer then small rocks. Thats what this slab/ sand floor does. Hopefully I won't need Ac in summer due to the earth cooling the slab , if I use foam then it wouldn't do that. Thanks
@@JasonTH-cam But you lose half of your heat to the ground.
@@joemonroe9456 No I don't, maybe 5-10% . Thermal mass builds are designed this way and many studies show these builds. If I was losing half to ground then that would mean anyone would be able to build a 3200 sq ft building and heat it for $30-$40 A month in Minnesota! Who would use stick frame anymore for homes! I have compared my heating to others using slab insulation, and I pay less then they do. Thermal mass benefits because it gets me through subzero days without running, then gets recharged during above zero days so use less energy to heat slab and ground. Usually happens that way unless have week of subzero weather. Thanks for watching
@@JasonTH-cam You are partly correct. If you don't heat your building and just let it gain heat from the ground then you are correct, but not if you heat the building.
Depends on the differential temperatures, insulation values and square footage of each section. Take my garage as an example:
R values are 60 for ceiling, 24 for walls, and 1 (this is generous) for 5 inches of concrete.
Assuming a ground temp of 50F, outside temp of 30F and maintaining building temp at 70F
The equation is differential temp X square feet divided by R value.
The heat loss through the floor is almost 3x the loss through the walls and ceiling. And assuming R-value of .5 doubles the loss through the floor.
The closer you keep the building to ground temp the more heat loss you have through the walls/ceiling compared to the floor.
Hi, just watched several of your pole barn videos. Good stuff. Any update on how the heated floors are doing with the sandbed? Also, I see at 4:18 that you did not disturb the dirt around the posts. If you did not add insulation around the posts, wouldn't that create a thermal bridge? I'm not challenging your work, I'm just trying to learn how to do this because our family will be building a pole barn home in MT.
It would, but I did the outside and covered the posts with insulation. You can see where the posts are because the white washers are holding it to them. ( around 1:36 ) I did cut and butt up the sheets to each post so there is a gap on outside that I went back and joined with foam board sealant. So basically the wood post thickness of 6" has some R-value and the outside foam board creates R 7.5 and thermal break. I actually have been busy so I haven't got the heat on yet. Hopefully beginning of year as it is ready for the black pipe as gas meter is in and will need city to inspect it .
I got most of the barn insulated in March and my bill was around $120 for heating. That was minnesota weather of having negative days and therm cost of $ .73 cents total including fees. In April, the bill was only $80. There were days where the radiant wouldn't turn on for 3-4 days due to the thermal mass. I can run it at lower gas consumption to keep thermal mass "Charged". So around $100-$120 a month in Minnesota weather for a 3200 Sq ft building with 2- 12x10 garage doors & 12 ft ceilings . That is pretty good! comparable to the avg bill of a 40 x40 building in minnesota with radiant. Now I'm hoping the thermal mass will help cool it in summer!