We used to sell these, it came with and runs CDOS Cromemco's CP/M compatible OS. I've never seen one running actual CP/M. It was certainly never targeted as a home computer here in Australia. The C10sp was a brilliant little machine. Well built and decent looking. I wrote a huge amount of professional software using structured basic on the C10, all centred around winery operations and process control. Some of it's life was also spent talking to a Honeywell mainframe and locally a Z80SBC with Cromemco 3k control basic and a couple of D+7A S100 analogue boards. I'd love to have one in my collection these days.
Be careful if you replace that keyboard cable. Some other vintage computers use the same kind of cable but the pinouts are different, so swapping in a regular phone cord can often result in power going onto a data line and ruining vintage keyboards! Check the pinout first before you swap it!
Hi, looking at the screen, you should be able to recognize this pattern. The oscillators in the monitor are out of the spec. So the monitor could not synchronize to the video signal from the computer. I expect some components aged and their value changed out of the spec. This is most probable cause. There is also possibility that the computer has fault and do not provide synchronization signal.
I used to work for a Cromemco dealer in the UK, the biggest one actually, it’s how the company started out. I personally never had any dealings with them other than being in the room with a couple of them while another engineer serviced them. I will say people loved the S100 based ones and ran them into the early 90’s. We were also an IBM, Compaq and Toshiba dealer and it’s on those that I did most of my work.
You can find what appears to be the technical reference manual for this system over at Dave's Old Computers (ClassicCmp), but it's labeled for the C-5, which is apparently a version of this system that was a terminal only, but seemingly having the capability for being the C-10 in the schematics.
The C-10 was typical of machines in the early 80's - trying to keep to the original CP/M formula but make it cheaper. This was going to be disrupted by the IBM PC and XT, and even more by the Commodore 64 which would be release in 1982. Cromemco was never going to compete in the home computer market, and this wasn't even a good attempt at doing that, since that market had moved so much in the late 70's with Apple and Atari and even Tandy. This was an attempt to create a lower-end machine to meet a market that IBM would dominate - that of the home business user. CP/M never took hold in the home, and the 8-bit limits quickly made it obsolete in business computing. Cromemco would go on to refocus on their core business and scientific customers, and eventually get sold off in 1987.
I was given a Cromemco System III in the mid '80s It came with a nice terminal and two 8" drives built into the unit. I played around with CDOS and some other software, but I couldn't get an assembler running and didn't have technical manuals for it. That machine was well built.
When you showed the Z-1, I immediately recognised the tablecloth then saw that it was mine. I paid $50 for that back in 2001 and have since replaced the missing switch paddle and got it booting with a pair of 8" drives.
Thank you, for sharing. Does anyone know, what was the retail price of one of these units during the early 1980's? Because, I might have picked-up one back in the day if, I knew these computers existed (smile...smile).
Those are some really strangely shaped traces on the monitor's PCB at 8:38. The sound you hear from the monitor might be the whine of the flyback transformer coil.
The "Cromemco Conundrum"... Hah.. luv it. Sounds like it could have been the title of a 70's SciFi movie. Wait...was that the sequel to "The Forbin Project"? :P
For some reason I like the position of the Delete key on the Cromemco. Perhaps it's a bit harder to hit the wrong key while touch typing, and there's less distance for your hand to travel to use it from where it would be while typing and using the arrow keys.
when I see a computer with a number on its name it reminds me of the numbers on trucks, those that explain the trucks carrying capacity, so the Cromemco C-10 is a quarter ton computer, the Chevy S-10 of computers, lol.
5:38 The drive is a little bit different Personal context is an interesting thing. I remember many computers having that little inset latch in their drives in the computer labs from when I was a kid. I remember thinking how neat it was and what a good idea since you could be sure the disk was all the way in, versus those drives that had no such latch.
If you have questions about the Z2-D, I may be able to help. I have some admittedly old hands-on experience with the Z2-D system and its boards and would be happy to help. If you want to get in touch please reply here and we'll figure it out.
Looks like its not able to sync , is there a vertical-hold / horisontal-hold might sort it to adjust those. Probably not very healthy to run it as it is, for long time since its not syncronizing. Keep in mind the power rails etc in the monitor depends on the horisontal frequency being correct. , if its way off could be capacitors off spec and it could alter voltages inside. Might try remove the computer mainboard and supply it proper voltages from a current limited supply of say half to one amp or about there and see what it does. If any rail stay at zero volts then the tantalums are shorted. and run it to a known working monitor to see if thats working or not. I would replace all rifa capacitors in the power supply, they are likely to go full pompei at any time, just had a tiny 220nf cap blacken a whole floor in my house in 10 seconds. They tend to crack and the paper absord moisture and then they catch fire. Also any tantalum capacitors on the mainboard often fail short and either explode or dead short power rails so its unable to power up.
I could spot the rifa caps from here. Things like that should not be turned on without a proper check over and done preventative maintenance. If this is the way they do things, I would never send them anything. To cavalier.
You missed a few points of interest. 1) Cromeco S100 system was a hijacked copy of the IMSAI 8080; they look identical except the front panel name. 2) This was early in the computer clone biz but the IMSAI 8080 was the first computer clone of the Altair 8080, again with the same S100 bus. 3) At least when IMSAI cloned the Altair they had the decency to jazz up the front Panel as to not look totally plagiarized. However, Cromeco had no shame and came out with an exact replica less the front panel name. As I understand things, Cromeco wanted to purchase the IMSAI units but for whatever reason(s) IMSAI could not produce units fast enough and thus the intellectual property of IMSAI was taken to produce replicas. Again, IMSAI did the same to Altair.
Pretty sure that's not completely right. While they did OEM the case and front panel, the cards inside were all Cromemco. Most likely the ZPU, 4FDC and RAM.
It does worry me that you’re happy to power on these old machines before you’ve checked that the PSU is good and delivering the correct voltages. You can potentially fry the main board if you haven’t done this. Second point, learn the basics of using an oscilloscope. It doesn’t need to be fancy or expensive (new or used for sub $100 should be fine for old systems), but you should be able to look at the waveforms being sent to the monitor and (1) see if the HSync is working, (2) see if the VSync is working and (3) see that the signal levels are OK. You can also use it to check things like if the CPU clock is working, if there is bus activity etc.
We used to sell these, it came with and runs CDOS Cromemco's CP/M compatible OS. I've never seen one running actual CP/M. It was certainly never targeted as a home computer here in Australia.
The C10sp was a brilliant little machine. Well built and decent looking. I wrote a huge amount of professional software using structured basic on the C10, all centred around winery operations and process control. Some of it's life was also spent talking to a Honeywell mainframe and locally a Z80SBC with Cromemco 3k control basic and a couple of D+7A S100 analogue boards.
I'd love to have one in my collection these days.
Be careful if you replace that keyboard cable. Some other vintage computers use the same kind of cable but the pinouts are different, so swapping in a regular phone cord can often result in power going onto a data line and ruining vintage keyboards! Check the pinout first before you swap it!
Hi,
looking at the screen, you should be able to recognize this pattern. The oscillators in the monitor are out of the spec. So the monitor could not synchronize to the video signal from the computer. I expect some components aged and their value changed out of the spec. This is most probable cause.
There is also possibility that the computer has fault and do not provide synchronization signal.
I used to work for a Cromemco dealer in the UK, the biggest one actually, it’s how the company started out. I personally never had any dealings with them other than being in the room with a couple of them while another engineer serviced them. I will say people loved the S100 based ones and ran them into the early 90’s. We were also an IBM, Compaq and Toshiba dealer and it’s on those that I did most of my work.
You can find what appears to be the technical reference manual for this system over at Dave's Old Computers (ClassicCmp), but it's labeled for the C-5, which is apparently a version of this system that was a terminal only, but seemingly having the capability for being the C-10 in the schematics.
The C-10 was typical of machines in the early 80's - trying to keep to the original CP/M formula but make it cheaper. This was going to be disrupted by the IBM PC and XT, and even more by the Commodore 64 which would be release in 1982. Cromemco was never going to compete in the home computer market, and this wasn't even a good attempt at doing that, since that market had moved so much in the late 70's with Apple and Atari and even Tandy. This was an attempt to create a lower-end machine to meet a market that IBM would dominate - that of the home business user. CP/M never took hold in the home, and the 8-bit limits quickly made it obsolete in business computing. Cromemco would go on to refocus on their core business and scientific customers, and eventually get sold off in 1987.
Looking forward to an update. Maybe document the diagnosis as well?
I was given a Cromemco System III in the mid '80s It came with a nice terminal and two 8" drives built into the unit. I played around with CDOS and some other software, but I couldn't get an assembler running and didn't have technical manuals for it. That machine was well built.
The Cromeco Z-1 looks exactly like the IMSAI 8080.
Exactly the same chassis, power supply and front panel - just the logo is different. The backplane and cards were all Cromemco.
When you showed the Z-1, I immediately recognised the tablecloth then saw that it was mine. I paid $50 for that back in 2001 and have since replaced the missing switch paddle and got it booting with a pair of 8" drives.
@02:02 Did I just see the Olivetti M10 ... Wondering how the connection is!
The color scheme of that display makes me think of the screens at an old bowling alley from back in the day ;)
yes that ...bowling roller rink!
the connector is not "Centronics" ... Centronics was merely the most visible user of them. Amphenol designed and sold the connectors.
Doesn't matter much, it's still known as centronics connector. No different than googling for searching the internet. Even if you don't use Google.
Try turning H-Hold. Also I can see RIFA caps in the power supply, so expect it to smoke or go bang if you leave it connected for a while.
I was interested in this, because I've read that the floating-point routines in the Atari 8-bit line were inspired by those in Cromemco Basic.
Thank you, for sharing. Does anyone know, what was the retail price of one of these units during the early 1980's? Because, I might have picked-up one back in the day if, I knew these computers existed (smile...smile).
Wow, very interesting little machine.
This does not look like a computer, but a terminal, what would explain the connector to the computer.
It is a full CDOS (CP/M compatible) Z80 system. Yep, specifically designed to also serve as a terminal on other systems.
Hope to see a follow up to this interesting rare machine
My first programming job in the late 80's, early 90's, was on a Cromemco, never heard of it before then. It was the rack based system.
Those are some really strangely shaped traces on the monitor's PCB at 8:38. The sound you hear from the monitor might be the whine of the flyback transformer coil.
The "Cromemco Conundrum"...
Hah.. luv it.
Sounds like it could have been the title of a 70's SciFi movie.
Wait...was that the sequel to "The Forbin Project"?
:P
For some reason I like the position of the Delete key on the Cromemco. Perhaps it's a bit harder to hit the wrong key while touch typing, and there's less distance for your hand to travel to use it from where it would be while typing and using the arrow keys.
The C-10 was released in 1982 after the IBM PC which debuted in 1981 and it's a business machine not a home computer
when I see a computer with a number on its name it reminds me of the numbers on trucks, those that explain the trucks carrying capacity, so the Cromemco C-10 is a quarter ton computer, the Chevy S-10 of computers, lol.
Nice - never seen one before
I had one of these when they first came out. It’s still stored in a closet at a friends house. Maybe it’s still working or maybe not.
Back in the early 80’s as an EE undergraduate we had to deal with CDOS and PDP-8 clones. (4096 words is all you’ll ever need)
That's a cool little computer. I really like the look of that case for the disc drive. Very cool aesthetic to the whole system.
5:38 The drive is a little bit different
Personal context is an interesting thing. I remember many computers having that little inset latch in their drives in the computer labs from when I was a kid. I remember thinking how neat it was and what a good idea since you could be sure the disk was all the way in, versus those drives that had no such latch.
The disk drive connector looks like GPIB - so it could be a smartish drive
8:46 was the pressed/knock in brute forced to get the top off?
I am looking for a working c10 where did you get it?
If you have questions about the Z2-D, I may be able to help. I have some admittedly old hands-on experience with the Z2-D system and its boards and would be happy to help. If you want to get in touch please reply here and we'll figure it out.
Looks like its not able to sync , is there a vertical-hold / horisontal-hold might sort it to adjust those. Probably not very healthy to run it as it is, for long time since its not syncronizing. Keep in mind the power rails etc in the monitor depends on the horisontal frequency being correct. , if its way off could be capacitors off spec and it could alter voltages inside. Might try remove the computer mainboard and supply it proper voltages from a current limited supply of say half to one amp or about there and see what it does. If any rail stay at zero volts then the tantalums are shorted. and run it to a known working monitor to see if thats working or not. I would replace all rifa capacitors in the power supply, they are likely to go full pompei at any time, just had a tiny 220nf cap blacken a whole floor in my house in 10 seconds. They tend to crack and the paper absord moisture and then they catch fire. Also any tantalum capacitors on the mainboard often fail short and either explode or dead short power rails so its unable to power up.
You got raster :)
I could spot the rifa caps from here. Things like that should not be turned on without a proper check over and done preventative maintenance.
If this is the way they do things, I would never send them anything. To cavalier.
is it possible to reduce your videos into 4 video segments?
Learned to code on a z2
You missed a few points of interest. 1) Cromeco S100 system was a hijacked copy of the IMSAI 8080; they look identical except the front panel name. 2) This was early in the computer clone biz but the IMSAI 8080 was the first computer clone of the Altair 8080, again with the same S100 bus.
3) At least when IMSAI cloned the Altair they had the decency to jazz up the front Panel as to not look totally plagiarized. However, Cromeco had no shame and came out with an exact replica less the front panel name.
As I understand things, Cromeco wanted to purchase the IMSAI units but for whatever reason(s) IMSAI could not produce units fast enough and thus the intellectual property of IMSAI was taken to produce replicas. Again, IMSAI did the same to Altair.
nuh uh. nooooo.
The Z-1 was an OEM of the IMSAI 8080, quite literally. They didn't do their own design until the Z-2.
Pretty sure that's not completely right. While they did OEM the case and front panel, the cards inside were all Cromemco. Most likely the ZPU, 4FDC and RAM.
@@nullvalu yes, that's correct.
OH MY GOSH WHERE IS THE NEXT PART?? WHAT DOES THE COMPUTER PORT DO?? IT HAS BEEN SIX MONTHS!!
It does worry me that you’re happy to power on these old machines before you’ve checked that the PSU is good and delivering the correct voltages. You can potentially fry the main board if you haven’t done this.
Second point, learn the basics of using an oscilloscope. It doesn’t need to be fancy or expensive (new or used for sub $100 should be fine for old systems), but you should be able to look at the waveforms being sent to the monitor and (1) see if the HSync is working, (2) see if the VSync is working and (3) see that the signal levels are OK. You can also use it to check things like if the CPU clock is working, if there is bus activity etc.
Very very interesting show today as usual !