@@spacecreated6820 yea the rutsack balances it out imo, and I'm sure people who play with it are going to hate not having it on diff classes/ascendancies.
Probably an instance where PoE1 knowledge is counter productive to learning PoE2. The most interesting this is the INSANE nerfs to the block area since the first leak a few days ago til now.+50% base shield block and no penalty to turtle charm to now 40% shield base and -35%chance to block. Casual 45% block chance nerf.
Long time ago there was an interview where Jonathan said smth along the lines "poe1 armour formula doesnt work well on big numbers/we didnt think thourughly about armour formula in early days of poe" so there is no way it stays the same, and no doubt it handles negative armour fairly
The original formula for armour and damage calculation definitely is not intended to extend down to negative armour. The damage formula for positive armour is: damage_amplification = 5 * damage / (armour + 5 * damage) for armour >=0, capped below at 0.1. The most reasonable behaviour for negative armour is probably going to be the inverse of that: damage_amplification = (-armour + 5 * damage) / (5 * damage) for armour < 0. This has a very nice continuous behaviour and scales linearly with negative armour, doubling the damage when negative armour is 5x that of the damage seems balanced as well.
My guess is you can gain up to 90% more dmg from negatove armor, and its same formula but fliped, so if you wanna deal 90% more dmg and hit for 1k you need enemy armor -45000 or less. Bit with only -5000 its 50% more.
Can anyone explain how the warbringer block ascendancies work. I don't understand what they are saying. 40% of block from equipped shield? Can block all damage from hits while shield is not raised? Does that mean you normally have to active block for your lets say 16% block chance to have that chance or what?
So you could equip a shield with 10% block (maybe some caster shield with caster stats?) but it would actually like it had 40% block. Raise shield is an active skill to block all avoidable hits from front, but you'll be able to get with investment 75% block to all hits without raising shield
As soon as I saw the armor break passive I knew I wanted to try it. It's a passive that feeds into itself. You break armor, so you do more damage with the next hit. And since you did more damage you break more armor. And this just keeps repeating - the rate at which you destroy armor will start low and grow exponentially with uptime.
I can only imagine they will cap the maximum amount of the negative broken armour. That would be a crazy oversight if not.. But very fun to play with the numbers.
My guess of how negative armor actually works is rather than plugging negative armor into the formula, the DR formula takes the absolute value of the armor and then applies the sign at the end, depending on if the armor was positive or negative. Effectively, -500 armor would be increased damage taken on the enemy side by an equivalent amount of the damage reduction 500 armor would give. GGG aren't fools, they are plugging in numbers straight into a formula clearly not designed for negative numbers, that is singular at very achievable values. On the other hand, this may still be broken, because it would turn something that hits 100 times with small amounts into a deadly skill. It's also very possible they just have a totally different formula that is independent of outgoing damage on the negative side.
We have a small window of time when "Fully Broken Armour". I think when the armor reaches 0, a timer is activated and the armor takes on negative values for as long as the timer is active. When the timer is up, the armor is fully restored.
do i need to download a new installer for poe2? are character limits for poe1 count in poe2? or do we get a new list of characters we can create in poe2?
Likely a cap on that Armor Break. Even in your example, the example of -3000 armor with a 1000 damage hit results in 250% more damage for that hit. Compare that to the Titan Ascendancy where we have a 40% more damage multiplier during Heavy Stuns, I think it is safe to say that there will be some conditions to this, especially if Armor Break is easier to apply (which it may or may not be, depending on your target).
Ive been trying to gind opinions but ive read totems inherit your stats. So im wondering if totems would breka armour below zero as a basis for a totem / phys minion build
Tbh for me it just means that armour as we know it has been reworked. Perhaps it may work like evasion now, meaning PDR in character sheet is actually accurate now.
I BELIEVE it would be fair to assume that armor will not calculate the same as PoE 1 has. We will probably have to learn new formulas for defences and such if I had to guess. Entirely new game after all.
Not sure if this is different then the armour formula that you explained. But there seems to be a skill gem called Armour Breaker. That if the name implies it has the same logic as the ascendancy "break armour" logic then it will just be a flat -X armour.
I think the easiest way to go about it mathematically would be for them to treat it like it had the amount of negative armour as positive like normal, and invert the amount of damage reduction of the hit to damage multiplied. The damage could never go over 90% more. Would still be very strong though, I've been eyeing these two nodes since I saw the release. I'm kinda torn between this and blood mage for a melee slam build, but It's kinda low on my list.
Armor being able to get to negatives combined with the first node wording (10% of damage DEALT) could be bonkers damage ramp. If every hit deals more and more damage, you just need to invest in defense and sustain.
I imagine dealing negative damage would either do nothing or just bug out, it wouldn't heal them because while it makes sense logically, from the point of view of the videogame those are two entirely different things
TBH i'm not even assuming that armour a evasion formulas are the same. Regardless there is a lot of fun things to try. I'm still deciding on what is gonna be my starter, still inclined to witch hunter, mostly because it's full generic power and you can do basically whatever with it, and shotguns and grenades sounds cool.
My suspicion is that they are going to reflect the formula, when going into the negatives, rather than continue this one. So it would be asymptotically approaching double damage at infinite negative armour if that makes sense. But thats just my speculation. P.S. thumbnail sirgog isn't mad, he's just disappointed.
50% increased small node passive is the most broken thing in existence thats like giving you multiple times higher damage or anything else you want from small passives
I think even in the case that negative armor works in a more linear fashion, this node would still be ridiculous due to its self-reinforcing nature; you'd just positive feedback loop up to whatever limit they impose, no? Unless that limit is very conservative, even low damage builds should get lots of value out of this node.
Armour breaking down to zero is perfectly reasonable. There are items in PoE1 that let you shred enemy armour. They just all floor at zero. That said, I think it's safe to assume PoE2 has a new armour formula that can handle this.
Doubt the formula is the same as POE - they made an entire ascendency node around breaking it below zero, so it's safe to assume they thought about this.
i dont know why anyone would even begin to assume that it will be this broken, especially if it was this easy to find. I think this one is a dud! I really love your vids and am looking forward for your opinions on the rest of the ascendancies!
My guess is the magnitude of numbers in EA won't ever come close to that. This isn't PoE1 where builds have 10s of millions or more dps. I have a feeling EA is gonna top out closer to 100-250k if that.
Its melee, its fine. It needs to be competitive. Let them wait and see. They already have gloves with corrosive effect to bring armor to zero. It works similar to elemental penetrative stats.
hope the presumed "special rule" for negative armor isn't player-specific... and then one of your totems or minions or allies or whatever non-you damage source flicks the monster and plasters them across the ground...
Hmm ... While I like GGG allowing players to do crazy things I would prefer things like Armour, HPs, "damage", etc. to all be unsigned integers [of whatever length]. Negative armour, negative HP, negative damage, all seem odd to me. YMMV. Negative resistances, esp. if "floored" at a reasonable value, are OK with me. I don't mind things being a little extra vulnerable but I wouldn't want to get things carried completely away.
Thanks for explaining a likely outdated formula and filling it with handpicked values. edit: it's frustrating, almost impossible to find a video with really meaningful info about poe2 in the last two or three days. Nothing hut speculations and blabla. The desperate urge to deliver content is so stupid
It's for money. The audience built in this time can be a huge boast for the lifetime of POE 2 and people have nothing to do right now except watch content.
They already nerfed the titan and the game is not even out yet, from 20% max life to 15% , they clearly don’t like melee…. The poe1 meta continues in poe2 as well….
"Break Enemy Armour to below 0" line is underlined in it's entirety so it's safe to assume there is a custom rule for this effect.
i expect negative armour to be like "up to 20% of enemy armour can be broken as negative "
@@MrRafagigapr Yeah, it definitely has some limit like that.
No, pointing over it will obviously just tell you about the normal armor break rules.
yeah no chance they didnt test that lol
love the math here bro, keep it going
Just flip the situation: Break your own armor to -5001 and enjoy all the healing touches.
Thats not what would happen... You would end up multiplying the damage you take from phys, not healing from it.
I think the "50% increased effect of small passive effects" is the most insane looking one. But I also assumed that they changed the armour formula.
definitely the most insane, the only balancing part of it is that you have to get the rucksack before it
@@spacecreated6820 yea the rutsack balances it out imo, and I'm sure people who play with it are going to hate not having it on diff classes/ascendancies.
Just think of 1 of the 2 ascendancy point as 25% increased effect of small passives and everyone will takes it too anyway its too fkin good lol
thumbnail goes hard lol
i assume you got the joke one? i have two for this vid, one with the ascendancy, one with a mockup of me with an axe
@@sirgog I got the axe one too, but didnt know you could have diff thumbs!
Came here just to say this (axe one)
Axe one goes very hard 🤴🔥
Probably an instance where PoE1 knowledge is counter productive to learning PoE2. The most interesting this is the INSANE nerfs to the block area since the first leak a few days ago til now.+50% base shield block and no penalty to turtle charm to now 40% shield base and -35%chance to block. Casual 45% block chance nerf.
Pretty much everything we'll see ine arly access will be unrecognizable two years from now hhahah, it's the PoE way
Long time ago there was an interview where Jonathan said smth along the lines "poe1 armour formula doesnt work well on big numbers/we didnt think thourughly about armour formula in early days of poe" so there is no way it stays the same, and no doubt it handles negative armour fairly
The original formula for armour and damage calculation definitely is not intended to extend down to negative armour.
The damage formula for positive armour is:
damage_amplification = 5 * damage / (armour + 5 * damage) for armour >=0, capped below at 0.1.
The most reasonable behaviour for negative armour is probably going to be the inverse of that:
damage_amplification = (-armour + 5 * damage) / (5 * damage) for armour < 0.
This has a very nice continuous behaviour and scales linearly with negative armour, doubling the damage when negative armour is 5x that of the damage seems balanced as well.
Hey Gog thanks for what you do man. It’s always a pleasure hearing your input.
I was searching your channel for the ascendancy info and you posted this just as i looked lol awesome work man thank you!
Bruh that thumbnail is how I see you a boss, a triple og, a legend of Poe. I’m new to Poe and your videos are really detailed.
My guess is you can gain up to 90% more dmg from negatove armor, and its same formula but fliped, so if you wanna deal 90% more dmg and hit for 1k you need enemy armor -45000 or less. Bit with only -5000 its 50% more.
Hey Sir Gog! Thanks for the video. Hope you are having a good day man
Didn't they say the armour formula is different in POE2 or did i make that up?
Can anyone explain how the warbringer block ascendancies work. I don't understand what they are saying. 40% of block from equipped shield? Can block all damage from hits while shield is not raised? Does that mean you normally have to active block for your lets say 16% block chance to have that chance or what?
So you could equip a shield with 10% block (maybe some caster shield with caster stats?) but it would actually like it had 40% block. Raise shield is an active skill to block all avoidable hits from front, but you'll be able to get with investment 75% block to all hits without raising shield
As soon as I saw the armor break passive I knew I wanted to try it. It's a passive that feeds into itself. You break armor, so you do more damage with the next hit. And since you did more damage you break more armor. And this just keeps repeating - the rate at which you destroy armor will start low and grow exponentially with uptime.
I can only imagine they will cap the maximum amount of the negative broken armour. That would be a crazy oversight if not..
But very fun to play with the numbers.
Just got to do smaller hits then. If you can get armor to negative 100, do exactly 20 damage for "fun".
Disclaimer, fun may include dividing by zero
My guess of how negative armor actually works is rather than plugging negative armor into the formula, the DR formula takes the absolute value of the armor and then applies the sign at the end, depending on if the armor was positive or negative. Effectively, -500 armor would be increased damage taken on the enemy side by an equivalent amount of the damage reduction 500 armor would give. GGG aren't fools, they are plugging in numbers straight into a formula clearly not designed for negative numbers, that is singular at very achievable values.
On the other hand, this may still be broken, because it would turn something that hits 100 times with small amounts into a deadly skill. It's also very possible they just have a totally different formula that is independent of outgoing damage on the negative side.
We have a small window of time when "Fully Broken Armour". I think when the armor reaches 0, a timer is activated and the armor takes on negative values for as long as the timer is active. When the timer is up, the armor is fully restored.
do i need to download a new installer for poe2? are character limits for poe1 count in poe2? or do we get a new list of characters we can create in poe2?
Love the thumbnail. Wouldn’t mind that Viking invading my village if you know what I mean.
Likely a cap on that Armor Break. Even in your example, the example of -3000 armor with a 1000 damage hit results in 250% more damage for that hit. Compare that to the Titan Ascendancy where we have a 40% more damage multiplier during Heavy Stuns, I think it is safe to say that there will be some conditions to this, especially if Armor Break is easier to apply (which it may or may not be, depending on your target).
Ive been trying to gind opinions but ive read totems inherit your stats. So im wondering if totems would breka armour below zero as a basis for a totem / phys minion build
From one video I watched Ziggyd's one armour break falls off after a follow up attack.
It’s coming!
This ascendancy looks really interesting with the armor break
Great Thumbnail 😂
I posted two thumbs, I can guess the one you saw :)
Tbh for me it just means that armour as we know it has been reworked. Perhaps it may work like evasion now, meaning PDR in character sheet is actually accurate now.
Im 100% positive they have safeguards in place already.... but I really want to scream monsters to death still so we shall know for sure soon.
I BELIEVE it would be fair to assume that armor will not calculate the same as PoE 1 has. We will probably have to learn new formulas for defences and such if I had to guess. Entirely new game after all.
Not sure if this is different then the armour formula that you explained. But there seems to be a skill gem called Armour Breaker. That if the name implies it has the same logic as the ascendancy "break armour" logic then it will just be a flat -X armour.
Assuming armour formula stays the same. Not to mention they can have a different formula for negative armour.
woohoo it's raining videos
way to start my day
Can’t WAIT!
Sirgog breaking the game before it is even released
I thought I heard somewhere they wanted to rework armour formula a bit for POE2, so i doubt negative armour will allow such insane ramp
I assume a separate video on hulking form, and another video for all other ascendancies? ;)
Reading from right to left is wild
I think the easiest way to go about it mathematically would be for them to treat it like it had the amount of negative armour as positive like normal, and invert the amount of damage reduction of the hit to damage multiplied. The damage could never go over 90% more.
Would still be very strong though, I've been eyeing these two nodes since I saw the release.
I'm kinda torn between this and blood mage for a melee slam build, but It's kinda low on my list.
i was already going to yell at monsters so hard their ears bleed, now it will strip them too?
Acolyte of Chayula is literally insane for chaos damage and recovery.
Armor being able to get to negatives combined with the first node wording (10% of damage DEALT) could be bonkers damage ramp.
If every hit deals more and more damage, you just need to invest in defense and sustain.
I imagine dealing negative damage would either do nothing or just bug out, it wouldn't heal them because while it makes sense logically, from the point of view of the videogame those are two entirely different things
TBH i'm not even assuming that armour a evasion formulas are the same.
Regardless there is a lot of fun things to try. I'm still deciding on what is gonna be my starter, still inclined to witch hunter, mostly because it's full generic power and you can do basically whatever with it, and shotguns and grenades sounds cool.
My suspicion is that they are going to reflect the formula, when going into the negatives, rather than continue this one. So it would be asymptotically approaching double damage at infinite negative armour if that makes sense. But thats just my speculation.
P.S. thumbnail sirgog isn't mad, he's just disappointed.
I thought about this too, but this will make small hits op since armor is strong vs small hits
Even if the damage bonus from negative armor is capped at 90%, its still pretty good I'd think?
There is no way it gets anywhere further than initial testing.
50% increased small node passive is the most broken thing in existence thats like giving you multiple times higher damage or anything else you want from small passives
I think even in the case that negative armor works in a more linear fashion, this node would still be ridiculous due to its self-reinforcing nature; you'd just positive feedback loop up to whatever limit they impose, no? Unless that limit is very conservative, even low damage builds should get lots of value out of this node.
Max PDR is 90%. Max negative PDR from negative armor is going to be -90%. Guarantee it
Based on the fact that I've seen armour-breaking abilities on a lot of classes, I'm assuming they've made some changes to the formula
Armour breaking down to zero is perfectly reasonable. There are items in PoE1 that let you shred enemy armour. They just all floor at zero. That said, I think it's safe to assume PoE2 has a new armour formula that can handle this.
They had to change how armor works for that passive node.
Probably an indication that this is simply not how damage is calculated in poe 2
Doubt the formula is the same as POE - they made an entire ascendency node around breaking it below zero, so it's safe to assume they thought about this.
Exactly, give them a little bit of credit...the POE1 formula is what it is because it only needed to be valid for non-negative armor
In PoE you can strip your enemy off his armour and when he's naked you... continue. For God.
Its negative value is specially capped by the maximum armor of the enemy :(
i dont know why anyone would even begin to assume that it will be this broken, especially if it was this easy to find. I think this one is a dud! I really love your vids and am looking forward for your opinions on the rest of the ascendancies!
Is armor broken permanently?
My guess is the magnitude of numbers in EA won't ever come close to that. This isn't PoE1 where builds have 10s of millions or more dps. I have a feeling EA is gonna top out closer to 100-250k if that.
Oh cool now our physical hits can be tearing the fabric of reality apart
i’m pretty sure GGG had at least 1 intern spec the node and test it out before calling it good
Its melee, its fine. It needs to be competitive. Let them wait and see. They already have gloves with corrosive effect to bring armor to zero. It works similar to elemental penetrative stats.
hope the presumed "special rule" for negative armor isn't player-specific... and then one of your totems or minions or allies or whatever non-you damage source flicks the monster and plasters them across the ground...
One class able to do trillions of damage? I dare say that's Diablo-like!
Hmm ... While I like GGG allowing players to do crazy things I would prefer things like Armour, HPs, "damage", etc. to all be unsigned integers [of whatever length]. Negative armour, negative HP, negative damage, all seem odd to me. YMMV. Negative resistances, esp. if "floored" at a reasonable value, are OK with me. I don't mind things being a little extra vulnerable but I wouldn't want to get things carried completely away.
poe 2 is already getting more positve attention than most other games, ever. and its not even out yet
There’s basically zero chance that this is how it will work.
armour works very differently in poe2, they already said so
They probably don't use PoE1 formula in PoE2.
Amusing anyway.
Finally dmg numbers in trillions pog.
Can I ascend to that gigachad on thumbnail?
i think titan 50% increased small passives is THE most busted thing ive ever seen.
warbringer is best support at start is my bet
Armor will work different obviously
Aslong totems dont die in one hit
raxx sent me
My mate needs to shave that head
Esto es darle la razón a los que dicen que PoE es un juego del Excel. 😂
Math lovers rejoice, "asymptotic" in a PoE 2 vid! Spicy.
🍺
Thanks for explaining a likely outdated formula and filling it with handpicked values.
edit: it's frustrating, almost impossible to find a video with really meaningful info about poe2 in the last two or three days. Nothing hut speculations and blabla. The desperate urge to deliver content is so stupid
It's for money. The audience built in this time can be a huge boast for the lifetime of POE 2 and people have nothing to do right now except watch content.
They already nerfed the titan and the game is not even out yet, from 20% max life to 15% , they clearly don’t like melee…. The poe1 meta continues in poe2 as well….
15% is already crazy, what are you talking about.