Dr. Jonathan AC Brown - Hadith: What orientalists and modernists get wrong - The Thinking Muslim

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ม.ค. 2025

ความคิดเห็น • 86

  • @TheThinkingMuslim
    @TheThinkingMuslim 6 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Was great to have you on the show Doc!

  • @UmmEss
    @UmmEss 12 วันที่ผ่านมา +9

    I can't believe I listened to someone I've never listened to before for over 2 hours. Jazakillah khair. More of this sheikh please!

  • @rosyid2414
    @rosyid2414 17 วันที่ผ่านมา +17

    Thanks for bringing this thorough interview with Dr Jonathan Brown

  • @AAcommonsense
    @AAcommonsense 9 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Jazakamillahukairun, that was a brilliant and important interview. Please invite him again

  • @shamselnahar45
    @shamselnahar45 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +8

    Brilliant. Thank you both

  • @siavashmashoof
    @siavashmashoof 12 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    Excellent and so eloquently put for the general public

  • @little_laughs_family
    @little_laughs_family 17 วันที่ผ่านมา +12

    This man is superb, I am always impressed by his narrative style.

  • @MountainCub
    @MountainCub 13 วันที่ผ่านมา +7

    This is an old interview! I got excited at first, thought it was a follow up 😢

    • @AbuZakariya22
      @AbuZakariya22 12 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Same, read comments to see if I was hallucinating or if someone else noticed 😂

  • @jackwilson-f3q
    @jackwilson-f3q 17 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    Great discussion. Thanks

  • @aneesahfurqan8544
    @aneesahfurqan8544 13 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    As Salaam Alaikum wa rahmahtulahi wa barakatuhu ~ Thank you, both, for an outstanding, informative, and insightful, program, clarifying the Hadith impact upon our Deen. I am ok often wondering about a specific Hadith compilation from the wives of the Prophet sallalahu alaihi wassallaam.

  • @salahelhaddad4872
    @salahelhaddad4872 17 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    Perfect thank you

  • @yabiggalla
    @yabiggalla 19 ชั่วโมงที่ผ่านมา

    Always good to clasp hands together in a thinking pose, because after all you are THE THINKING MUSLIM™

  • @abderrahimelarabi4522
    @abderrahimelarabi4522 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    Thanks Dr Jonathan,brother Jalal, we learned and enjoyed the conversation and the discussion.I do understand brother Jonathan point, the prophet PBUH was the walking living Quran for the believers, but to answer why we need the Quran also to accompany the Sunna, it’s for several reasons, mainly because its the Allah words talking to us, and there is lot of verses were not explained by prophet PBUH,for future generations to discover,the stories that were counted in the Quran to inspire us,also for the new fatwas we encounter in our future new situations,for the beautiful poetry of it, for the scientific directions ,like questions we were asked to contemplate on in science field!! I think Sunna carried the biggest message of the Quran, the ethical way to behave and live our life !!
    To the some verses that were clearly in the Quran, and the prophet interpretation was different or seemed contradictory , I do agree with the Dr, and it’s not for say contradictory,it’s just wider explanation to the verse .for example Alhad of cutting hands for thieves, now of course there is a lot of degrees of theft, so yeah ,depending of the theft degree ,bad theft like stealing from the Umma ,a lot of money then we may need to apply Alhad as in the verse.i think! Allah knows better!jazakom Allah khayran

  • @Ola-jk2tz
    @Ola-jk2tz 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    Great episode. Is it just me or does anyone keep thinking “THE” in the logo is not perfectly centered under the gate. Needs to shift a space or two to the left…can’t stop seeing it. OCD 😅

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-3-42-And when the angles said,O Maryarm Indeed Allah has chosen you and chosen you above the women of the worlds.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-2- 109- out of envy from themselves ( even ) after the truth has become clear to them,So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed,Allah is over all things competent.

  • @isatousarr7044
    @isatousarr7044 7 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Orientalists and modernists often approach the study of the East and its cultures with perspectives that, at times, overlook or misinterpret key aspects of the societies they examine. Here are some critical points on what they may get wrong:
    Simplification and Generalization: Orientalism, particularly in its classical form, tends to generalize the diverse cultures, religions, and societies of the East, treating them as a monolithic "Other" in opposition to the West. This oversimplifies complex histories, traditions, and social dynamics. The portrayal of Eastern societies as static, backward, or exotic often ignores the depth of historical evolution, intellectual movements, and cultural diversity within these regions.
    Eurocentrism: Both Orientalists and many modernists often interpret Eastern cultures through a Eurocentric lens, assuming that Western values, such as individualism, secularism, and modernity, are universally applicable or superior. This perspective fails to appreciate the distinct philosophical, social, and religious frameworks in Eastern societies that are not necessarily inferior or outdated, but different in their own right. For instance, Islamic, Confucian, or Hindu traditions offer alternative views on the human experience, ethics, and governance that should be understood on their own terms.
    Romanticizing or Demonizing the Past: Orientalists often romanticize or demonize the past of Eastern societies. On one hand, they may idealize pre-colonial times, imagining a golden age of knowledge and culture. On the other, they may focus on the perceived "despotism" and "backwardness" of the East, often influenced by colonial narratives. Modernists, particularly those influenced by Enlightenment thought, may reject traditional Eastern knowledge or customs as obstacles to "progress," sometimes overlooking how these traditions have adapted and evolved in the context of modernity.
    Overlooking Colonial Impact: Orientalists often underplay the destructive impact of colonialism on Eastern societies. Colonization not only disrupted indigenous cultural, social, and economic structures but also imposed Western systems of governance, education, and religion. Many of the issues faced by Eastern societies today, including political instability, economic challenges, and identity crises, are deeply rooted in this colonial history. Ignoring this context leads to misguided conclusions about the inherent flaws in these cultures, rather than understanding them as a result of historical trauma.
    Neglecting Indigenous Intellectual Movements: Modernist and Orientalist discourses often fail to give proper attention to the indigenous intellectual, cultural, and political movements that have shaped Eastern societies. For example, in the context of Islam, thinkers like Ibn Rushd (Averroes), Al-Farabi, and Al-Ghazali made significant contributions to philosophy and science long before the Enlightenment. In India, the reform movements of figures like Raja Ram Mohan Roy and Swami Vivekananda offered critical approaches to modernity that were not simply reactions to the West, but rooted in the local socio-cultural contexts.
    Misunderstanding Religion and Spirituality: Orientalist interpretations of Eastern religions often reduce them to simplistic or even stereotypical images. For example, Hinduism is frequently portrayed as a system of ritualism, Buddhism as a passive quest for nirvana, and Islam as an authoritarian and repressive religion. These reductive views fail to capture the richness and diversity of religious thought in the East, as well as the ways in which spirituality interacts with politics, ethics, and daily life in dynamic and evolving ways.
    Imposing Modernist Narratives: Modernism, in its quest for universal progress, often imposes a linear, Western-centric view of history, believing that all societies must follow the same path of development-often from traditionalism to modernity. This view fails to appreciate how Eastern societies have developed their own forms of modernization that may not align with Western ideals but are nonetheless legitimate and effective in their own right.
    In conclusion, both Orientalism and modernism can fall into the trap of oversimplifying, generalizing, or misrepresenting Eastern cultures. A more nuanced understanding requires acknowledging the complexities, historical contexts, and internal dynamics that shape societies outside the West. It also means recognizing the rich contributions of Eastern intellectual traditions and the need to engage with them on their own terms, rather than through a colonial or Eurocentric lens.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S3-46-He will speak to the people in the Cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-2-109- Many of the people of the SSripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-2110 - And establish prayer and give zakah, and what ever good you put forward for yourselves -you will find it with Allah. Indeed Allah,of WHAT you doing seeing.

  • @zohayerhossain55555
    @zohayerhossain55555 11 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

  • @abdelbaasit1
    @abdelbaasit1 18 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    1:00:29 and Zuhri worked for the Umayyad govt as the head of their police, etc. (And speaking of govt torture, Zuhri even killed a man by punishing him too hard.) 🤷🏻‍♂️ Anyone can cite isolated examples of a scholar being one way or the other… but we can’t generalize. There were clearly scholars (even early hadith scholars) on both sides, and this is just well known; those in favor with the govt and those who weren’t.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-3-43- O Maryarm ,be devoutly obedient to your Rabb and Prostrate and bow those who bow(in prayer)

  • @VROne111
    @VROne111 13 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    ماشاءاللہ

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Dawud we gave the book Zabur(psalm

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Mr. J Carter was not Buried in the Catholic burial place.

  • @saliksayyar9793
    @saliksayyar9793 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Besides the Qur’an and Sunnah of the Prophet (saww), there is also the Fiqh of the Prophet (saww) , questions that arose during the Prophethood, for which there was no precedence. Answers provided by the Prophet (saww).
    Arabia was a oral society par excellence. Besides poetry they could recite their pedigrees going back many many generations. Thus when they heard of a saying or doing of the Prophet (saww) they memorized it with the chain of transmitters within their clans.
    Bukhari and Muslim merely complied them for their students.

    • @kalijasin
      @kalijasin 12 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Yusuf 12:40 "Allah has sent down no authority. Legislation is not but for Allah."
      مَا تَعۡبُدُونَ مِن دُونِهِۦۤ إِلَّاۤ أَسۡمَاۤءࣰ سَمَّیۡتُمُوهَاۤ أَنتُمۡ وَءَابَاۤؤُكُم مَّاۤ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلۡطَـٰنٍۚ إِنِ ٱلۡحُكۡمُ إِلَّا لِلَّهِ أَمَرَ أَلَّا تَعۡبُدُوۤا۟ إِلَّاۤ إِیَّاهُۚ ذَ ٰلِكَ ٱلدِّینُ ٱلۡقَیِّمُ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَكۡثَرَ ٱلنَّاسِ لَا یَعۡلَمُونَ ۝٤٠

  • @drhoomz
    @drhoomz 10 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Wow he really does look like Harrison Ford

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-3-44-That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you,And you were not with them when they cast their pens as to which of them should be responsible for Maryarm .Nor were you with them when they disputed.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-185- s-2-275 - s-2-276- s-277-

  • @Faisal-n3u
    @Faisal-n3u 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    ❤️

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S- 112- s-72- S-18- s-62- S-80- S-81-

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-2-132 s-2-134 2-139. 2-136

  • @INflamesRobbie
    @INflamesRobbie 13 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Please bring on someone that makes it easy for western muslims. Someone who can tell exactly what to read abd what you need to know. Which Hadth to read and what rules that is demanded to be considered a real muslim.Sometging that is acceptet bt all sunnis and shia. This is confusing.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-2-108- OR do you intend to ask Your Messenger as Moses was asked before? And whoever exchanges faith for disbelief has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-116- S-117 S-2-118-S-119

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    From the Torah the Injeel. S-86-Those are the ones who have bought the life of this world for the Hereafter,so the punishment will not be lightened for them ,nor will they be aided

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-3-47- She said My Rabb how will I have a child when no man has touched me? (The angle)said Such is Allah He Createswhat He will. When He decrees matter He only say kunfayakun ( Be andit Is)

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-112- S-116 s-2-112 S-2-119

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    He seem as he understood

  • @saliksayyar9793
    @saliksayyar9793 14 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Two hundred plus years are only 10-12 generations, where did he get 20 or more?

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-3-45- when the angles said, O Maryarm Indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him,who name will be the Messiah,Isa the Son of Maryarm- distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-3-49- And a messenger to the Children of Israel, Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Rabb in that I design for you from Clay a bird then then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Aĺlah.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-3-48-And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torahand the Injeel

  • @abdelbaasit1
    @abdelbaasit1 18 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    1:01:04 On what actual concrete basis can we just make that claim in such a general way (“definitely, they weren’t…”)? The truth is: such sweeping statements just reflect our own biases and how we want to imagine the past…and early Muslim scholarship. People were different. Some may have been very principled, and others may have not. It’s just human nature. So if we have indications that one scholar was close with a particular govt and did things for them, 🤷🏻‍♂️ it doesn’t mean we throw out anything they narrated… but it can absolutely raise eyebrows and make people hesitant to accept everything that comes from them. And the criticism of Zuhri for his relationship with the Umayyad govt comes from early scholars (eg Makhul said that Zuhri ruined himself by associating with kings; Shu’ba b. Hajjaj snatched a scroll of hadith he learned from Zuhri out of his hand and tossed it into the Tigris, justifying what he did by saying that Zuhri was a soldier (shurti) of the Umayyads).

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-112- S-116 s-2-112

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    The Quran the word hadith is used in the Quran ? The book of wisdom

  • @OhjusrebmememberedNohw
    @OhjusrebmememberedNohw วันที่ผ่านมา

    25 mins in and the gentleman has already made mistakes in his recitation of the verses he quoted. Anyone else pick that ?
    If am mistaken my assessment I apologise to him unreservedly.
    But it does sounds to me that i heard clear mistakes in the verses.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    In the her after will debate

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Debates or S-35-

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    It is not in the Quran

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-3-49-And I cure the blind ( from birth) and the leper,and I give life to the dead by the permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you storming your houses. Indeed that is a sign for you,if you are brlievers.

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Here except or reject 1446 yrs

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    The Quran and hadiths sayings and doings 1446 yrs

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S4-164-

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    So you do not have to be Catholic or the Pharoe ..mind set

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Mr. CARTER WAS SAID TO BE A BAPTIST ,DOEST THAT MEAN HE EXCEPTED THE SON OF Maryarm as a BABY BORN AS THE QURAN SAY

  • @laylaali5977
    @laylaali5977 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    I don’t know why Jonathan defends Hadiths that he knows are not reliable each Hadith has a three different versions based on who said she said

    • @kalijasin
      @kalijasin 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Problem isn't weak or unreliable hadeeths.

    • @khairt1731
      @khairt1731 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +7

      So you clearly dont know what youre talking about.

    • @sammu
      @sammu 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Man this stream has brought out some embarrassingly nonsense arguments.

    • @kalijasin
      @kalijasin 12 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      @@sammu Then people using insults as a form of correction and a way of speaking the truth are the ones in the wrong.

    • @planc3318
      @planc3318 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Because they are reliable…

  • @looliaj
    @looliaj 10 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Aoothu bellaahh there is one sunna mentioned in the Quran which sunnatullaahh! Sunna is NOT AUTHORIZED BY THE QURAN. DONT MAKE UP NONSENSE BROTHER PLEASE. HADITH in the Quran is the Hadith of Allah. It’s funny how we somehow dirverted the sunna and Hadith to name this he said she said pseudoscience and holify the narrations of our messenger SAAWS. The Tafseer and So scaled Sunna attributed to TABARI and Muslim and Bokhari did not have an original manuscript for at least 150 after those authors died. Can you explain that? My bottom line is, I use the Quran first and foremost, and the narrations for linguistic and historical correlation only.. if Allahh didn’t specify EXACTLY how to pray then there is a reason for it and the individualized way you apply it will truly show how devout you are and will set everyone apart in their faith level in front of Allahh alone.. May Allahh guide us all to his every STRAIGHTENING PATH

  • @kalijasin
    @kalijasin 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    The problem I have with all this is:
    1. Making hadeeths a primary source of knowledge.
    2. Exaggeration about who the prophet is and/or what he did.
    3. Claiming to be a Muslim when you're actually in fact a Muhammadan.
    4. Suggesting we have to rely on hadeeths because the Qur'an is missing certain things.
    5. Claims of there being a legislator other than Allah (SWT).

    • @khairt1731
      @khairt1731 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +10

      Sounds like youre confused. Literally.

    • @kalijasin
      @kalijasin 12 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@khairt1731 Which would make you a hadeeth rejecter because I didn't say anything that's not in the hadeeths.

    • @kalijasin
      @kalijasin 12 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@khairt1731 Nothing confusing about the Qur'an.

    • @KeithWatney-vv2cf
      @KeithWatney-vv2cf 9 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Under close examination ur more than likely not a muslim

  • @JocelynBurrell
    @JocelynBurrell 4 วันที่ผ่านมา

    S-2-191 S-2-185- 2-186- S-187

  • @gasnomics4067
    @gasnomics4067 13 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    It doesn't add to the Quran but explain many things from the Quran. THE QURAN IS COMPLETE.

    • @Auudubillahi
      @Auudubillahi 12 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      That's kind of a contradiction then isn't it?

    • @SundaR4-h1h
      @SundaR4-h1h 12 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@Auudubillahi agree. Allah has promised to protect the Quran, which is why it has been memorized. The Quran was delivered by the prophet and the angel Gabriel, so there is no doubt that it is true.
      Tafsir, on the other hand, can be changed according to the human mind and this is proven by interpreting Islam in the Quran as the most correct religion? In fact, the prophet taught the same teachings of the previous prophets and the Quran confirms the Torah and the Gospel. This means that the prophet did not create a new religion. Many false hadiths have in fact corrupted the name of the prophet. Hadith became an easy target for haters.

    • @kalijasin
      @kalijasin 12 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Al-An'am 6:115 "The Word of your Lord has been perfected in truth and justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearing, All- Knowing."
      وَتَمَّتۡ كَلِمَتُ رَبِّكَ صِدۡقࣰا وَعَدۡلࣰاۚ لَّا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَـٰتِهِۦۚ وَهُوَ ٱلسَّمِیعُ ٱلۡعَلِیمُ

    • @SundaR4-h1h
      @SundaR4-h1h 11 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @ thank you

    • @hridoymozumder2980
      @hridoymozumder2980 9 วันที่ผ่านมา

      It does bro!

  • @mohammedalsmadi680
    @mohammedalsmadi680 13 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Mohammed Hijab wiped the floor with this guy.