I have softened a lot on mass land destruction. The fact of the matter is that I have an extremely powerful simic commander deck that will eventually overwhelm the opponent with big mana spells. Even stuff like counterspells doesn’t really work against the deck because I can give my big mana spells cascade and thus have a card on the back that my opponent will have to further spend removal on. Stax and mass land destruction are the best ways of preventing that deck from doing its thing.
Sounds like decks like that are just an issue. Land decks in general are a bit taboo for how much value they get, ruining the fun for any other themes to exist healthily.
Best late game MLD is Cleansing, from The Dark. I actually run it as a white 'burn' spell, but it does have that land destruction! Creates some really 'fun' situations and is incredibly unique.
I run Obliterate in my boros planeswalker deck as a finisher. It always resolves and gets rid of creatures and mana rocks without touching my walkers, putting me way ahead on board
I have a mono white landfall deck that utilizes land destruction/recursion to win, I jump through a lot of hoops to make people feel better about the land destruction, glad to hear it’s not always seen as the most treacherous thing in magic!
Thank you for covering it! I feel that every strategy should be explored. But since this is a social game, we should (as land destruction players) win as soon as possible after destroying lands.
Personally I feel it's fine in decks like Kaalia, Zurgo and Negan (Malik). Where you can see the overwhelming advantage that the deck will have over others affected by land destruction.
@@Blacklodge_Willy Absolutely, more players should be open to the idea that the game was meant to be played in various ways. Strategy such as mill, infect, commander dmg, etc. are all viable to include land destruction. 💯
Agreed. I would say mass land destruction may even make agro decks much more viable. The issue is blowing up everyone’s lands but not having a way to close out the game
No. Not all strategies HAVE to exist. That is far too chaotic. In fact, it is impossible. When everything is allowed, fewer are viable. With restrictions set in rule 0 and common taboo, we allow for other themes to thrive.
@@eliasescamilla2556 Because of the vastness of it, things like playgroups and rule 0 are required, or else there is no chance for most themes to prosper.
I'd say that while mld is a viable win condition, the problem is it drags out games if it doesn't close it out. I get your sentiment of "why complain about playing more magic" but I'd argue playing 1 match for a long time is not "playing more magic" since you're stuck with the same deck in the same game. With that logic, playing Shahrazad is "playing more magic". Also the issue with it being used as a wincon is that if it is disrupted in any way (such as the example you provided with Avacyn getting hit with Swords to Plowshares) then it either punishes the whole board with a longer game, or it hands the win to someone who didn't even play the card. Neither are ideal situations for the pod and can cause quite a bit of salt.
You should not play the game. If you believe it is PUNISHMENT to play after countering a strategy, you should just not play at all. The vast majority of people playing commander, play the same decks regularly.
What are your opinions on shivan harvest? Commander is Hofri Ghostforge. Imagine harvest is the only sac outlet I have on the field. I want to trigger etb or death triggers of my creatures. When is acceptable to blow up lands? Should I blow up lands if I'm in the lead?
I think we just need to break down what MLD is doing in a game. 1) It can be card advantage. If a green player has done nothing but ramp for 4 turns in a row and has 8 lands in play and 1 card in hand. If we consider board wipes a form of card advantage, then this is the same. If an elf ball player has 1 land in play and 10 elves on turn 4 and you wrath of god, it has the same outcome. I think the latter is considered a fair play in EDH so the first must be as well. 2) It is a form of tempo play. If you have a winning board state and your you dont think your opponents have interaction, or you can push though it, then you will win the game. Its no different from legacy with grixis delver. Have a 3/2 flyer on turn 1, and then counter everything your opponents do as you swing in for damage. This is the same fundamental play as Avacyn casting Armageddon. Tempo plays are fair game in EDH. At this point I think some people just like to whine and are having fake arguments with imaginary people.
It also hoses the one essential resource for anybody in the game. It is poor design for a 4 player board game. Mainly because it wasn't designed for this format. No wonder it is taboo. Also, what reason does one have to play it? Because of skewed land amounts? Sounds like a different problem should be addressed...
I'm building a hazezon deck and he benefits from lands in the graveyard. So if I want lands in the graveyard then other people will want their lands in the graveyard....right?
bro i built Hazezon the naya commander to lay desert lands from my graveyard and ive been testing it with the new desert lands from thunder junction and broooooo its hilarious. lmk if you want the list i can shoot it to you. actually ill leave it in comments.
You are so correct. Too many people lose it cause they cant do their thing every game. They become so fixated on doing the thing they want they leave out interaction to deal with things. Real.deck building has gone by the wayside in favor of i must do the coolest splashiest thing.
@@weaseljester2077 It isn't mutually exclusive. People can do flashy things and make sure other people do not run away with the game. And MLD also stops people from doing anything at all!
So, funny story. I have an avacyn deck. It's not a boardwipe tribal, it's just angel tribal. It doesn't have more boardwipes than a normal deck has, it's just a fun deck. Most angels are big and hit hard, you make a board, include avacyn, and then you have a big board of big creatures that's really hard to out. Fun. I like it. My friends used to like it, they used to say it was fun to play against it. But then, here's the catch: I had two cards that destroyed all lands. They were not my main win condition, I did not have any ways to tutor then, it was just a "hey, if I draw it I can use it" situation, just an alt win con. I played 10+ games with this deck vs my friends, never drew them, and they said that that was my deck that they liked the most to play against, that it was a very fair deck, that did strong stuff but it wasn't oppressive, that it didn't win the game quickly with any combos, or whatever, they loved it... Until the day I drew armaggedon. The moment I cast it, it was like a switched turned into their brain, they became ANGRY, they said that MLD was not for casual commander, that now they had to sit there and do nothing, and I was like "you can just surrender" "no, we have to play it out" "ok, then play it out" "BUT IT WILL BE BORING" "then surrender" "but what if I can win the game?" "It's gonna be hard, I have 9 mana and 20 power on the field, you guys have 0 mana and almost nothing, but you can try" "BUT TRYING WILL BE BORING" "It's ok man, I won the game" "NO YOU DIDN'T, WE CAN STILL WIN" and from here you can imagine where this is going. From what I see, that situation wasn't different from just... winning with a combo, cause let's be real, that game was won, I had advantage that would win me the game in a few turns, it wouldn't take long even if we played it out, but seeing MLD triggers an irrational response in people, to the point that now they say that they hate that deck the most between my deck and refuse to play against it, even if before that we had 10+ great games with that deck, the one game where I blew all of their lands made them forget it, so yeah, I think that MLD hate is above everything an emotional response. I'm all for MLD as a win condition, I think it sucks as a stax strategy, a way to prolong the game, but using it to end the game like I did, I'm all for it and wouldn't be mad if someone did it to me.
That sharae game had the urzas sylex. I normally use it to tutor for my walkers but since as you pointed out, i had a target on my back (partly because you were also proliferating lmao) i pulled the trigger on sylex. But ya, it actually wasnt bad at all. And i still got to tutor up jace the unraveler and ulting him. Very fun game haha
I ran a land destruction deck but I would only wipe the board when it benefitted me. If I had three or 4 indestructible lands and would gain a significant advantage from it, I would do it. I would however never cast land destruction spells if I was about to lose just to prolong things. It's not a problem so long as land destruction ends in a win condition.
Between Disciple of Caelus Nin and urza's sylex i realy am temped to try landdestruction out, mostly as an equalizer. My main problem is that i like playing mana intensive cards.
I'll agree with this. I play Dimensional Breach, Warp World, and Urza's Sylex in 3 different decks. In each if I resolve it the game is over on a turn or two. But that is just because the decks are set up to take advantage of the scenario when they play out.
When people say it drags the game out I think it's less about the length of the game and more about the style of game play you are forced into. I don't mind a multi directional lock on the game where I have to be really clever about how I spend my resources. I don't care for a game where I've been costed out of playing. In my mind it's less about which board wipe you use and more about leveraging it in your flavor. My Syr Gwyn deck was board wipes tribal at one point, once I started wiping the game usually didn't last long because I was wiping to pull ahead.
I built a Grixis deck and the entire idea is it runs havoc festival so it deals a lot of damage to the table. I figured I might as well run some mass land destruction just to try and protect my damage dealing it ends the game quickly does not drag the game on.
I play an Alela deck which runs around 12 mana rocks and i also play 3-4 indestructible artifact lands. I ran land destruction because i was insulated from it. There are so many answers to land destruction in commanders, even in casual.
I love the indestructible lands. I use them along side cleansing wildfire and geomancers gambit to turn them into cantriping ramp spells that also double up as removal for broken lands. Getting wrecked by farewell/karn/stony silence feels pretty bad tho
For the last two years I’ve been slowly putting together a Mardu MLD deck. I have about 80% of the cards I want for it, but the biggest hurdle to finishing it is the commander itself. People have suggested Zurgo Helmsmasher for his limited indestructibility, but it just feels… off, for some reason. I may end up going with a partner pair but nothing has really jumped out at me so far. As for breaking parity, there is a line that I want to play in order to close out the game that uses Balancing Act. It’s actually a card I think would help a lot of decks that are just naturally slower. It punishes people who have more lands than they should and/or drawn more cards than they should.
Follow up Assemble the Legion, after a few turns of development, with Jokulhaups. Assemble stays in play, churning out dudes. Either have a wincon (even if someone foils it), or it's bad form; the Warp World scenario/example.
Lol, the only time I run mass land D is in my stax deck. Estrid, I put totem armor on my lands, untapping them and for extra mana, then as a win con I just let Armageddon fly...after that it is usually scoop city.
I've been on the receiving end of someone who did the Worldslayer thing and then said "pass turn" ... THAT is what I think the reputation of MPD is... someone who just pops off a "reset the board completely, lands included" effect and we then are back to the beginning stages of the game, but now we are stuck with whatever was in our hand before the effect resolved. If it's "I'm going to cast Delirium Skeins to empty everyone's hand then Worldslayer with Zurgo" , that is probably a more "okay" way to play it because there's a plan here... it's not "throw the MPD effect then hope and pray nobody else rebuilds faster than I do." So I think your points are valid... MPD isn't necessarily "bad" , it is more the anecdotal experiences of that one time where someone Worldslayers then passes. The increased prevalence of "board saves" and "board protection" type cards NOW compared to "old commander" (most of the anecdotes I know of someone casting Armageddon or Worldslayering with Avacyn in play come from "old commander") is what I think makes the argument FOR more common MPD effects valid. When commander started there were more really old MPD effects and not enough ways to protect your board from them.
I play a Mogis/Enchantment deck that runs Jokulhaups as a win-con - Jokulhaups leaves Enchantments alone. I also have an Armageddon in my Liesa, Shroud of Dusk voltron/boardwipe deck; destroying all lands w/ Liesa being the only creature on deck is back-breaking. One of the people I play against regularly uses Armageddon & Winter Orb in an Selvala, Explorer Returned deck. It's all in the group you play with.
Similar thing here, I play a few MLD cards in an Obunn list that focuses on bringing back lands from the graveyard, generally all at once. Even if my opponent manage to protect their lands, the 10+ landfall triggers I get from my own returning usually bring me forward quite a bit, and if they couldn't protect themselves then the game usually closes out quickly
I think it should be more accepted as a tool, everytime I play a wasteland I get shit for it, as though rogue's passage or other lands that can cause someone to win the game dont exist.
Great topic to debate Demo. In the cases you talk about where somebody closes the game quickly i dont see any problem. The main problem comes when a lot of people play those cards without a plan or for revenge 'cause they see no options to win quickly. Hapoens to me a lot, and feels horrible. It's hard to make everyone play it properly :)
I would love to play a 4 hour game, problem is that i know that if i ever get in a 4 hour game i will lose within the first half hour. Then i got to sit around shuffling my deck while waiting for it to end.
Then there's Natural Balence. In Green. It brings everyone to 5 lands. Let's anyone with less land search for enough basics. Depending on how many colors they're running. They may not have many if any.
Depends. I built Kiki-Jiki in 2013. Infinite land destruction among other things. I built the deck to make a point(you cant make monored competitive), but it did drag games out. And nobody loved playing against it.
I never cast MLD unless I am 95% sure I win the game/everybody is tapped, and it is highly underrated imo, at least in my playgrous, but tbf almost nobody play white. I run Armageddon on my Sigarda voltron deck and my Gisela deck. On sigarda there's practically no way she is getting removed in response. On my Gisela deck melding her into Brisela almost guarantees a safe win with no counters/indestructible effects
And that argument for MLD is not very strong, because you have to be ahead for the card to matter just for yourself. Otherwise it is a dead card. Might as well call taboo on crazy amounts of ramp...
Decree of enialation got me banned from a discord server Heres the story. I was playing gavi nest warden a commander that cycles cards for free and creates tokens I told them I have the decree of enialation in my deck before the game and said its ok as long as "Im not toxic with it." so we are playing and Im mana screwed with 2 lands on turn six with a few artifacts. I had no other plays besides to cycle decree of enialation for free. everone gets mad and they all agree to kill me and only target me. I said ok but now I have the edge with mana thanks to my mana rocks. Game progresses and Im down to three life after everyone going for me. I get dranith healer get into a cycling rhythm and shot up to 27 and stall a few turns before I get aproch of the second sun and win. the table is shocked that I just 3v1 them and just replied gg. they were so salty that they preceded to say the the land destruction should be removed from my deck and ended call. A week later. I get banned by the admin saying he was told I played land destruction despite being told not to from the group I was with. I tried to explain but he said I was lying according to the other players in the group. Was I in the wrong let me know.
Folks have complained about land destruction for as long as the game has existed. They complain about counter magic almost as much. People hate effective strategies, it is that simple.
I rarely play mass land destruction. I play other mass board wipes only if necessary and if the game has been going on more than an hour, I probably won't play it. It depends on the game and who's playing. With certain players in the group, I won't because the game is guaranteed to be slow and boring and i just want it to end. Other players, I don't mind extending the game because we are going to be having fun. The only deck i've ever made that had mass land destruction was a grixis superfriends edh deck. I had a Jokulhaups in the deck and would play it after getting a few planeswalkers in play. I would ONLY play it if i had enough planeswalkers out. I may not win instantly, (depends on which planeswalkers are out) but It basically ends the game because everyone realizes that i'm too far ahead and they scoop. Playing mass land destruction just to play it with no actual plan to win the game is usually not OK especially if the game has already been going on for more than an hour. Commander night in my shop is usually about 4 hours. I do not want to play one game in 4 hours and most don't either. I've had guys in the playgroup that would drive 20-30 minutes to get to the shop. Imagine driving for 30 minutes to play one long slow game, not win, and then drive 30 minutes home.
The main reason I despise it is that I don't want to restart the game when it's almost over. Most of the time people don't have a gameplan for when they Armageddon and it just drags out the game and stalls it. It kills momentum and usually nothing happens until we reach the amount of mana we had before. A creature boardwipe is more likely going to end the game that turn for at least one player, a land wipe rarely does that and just drags the game on for pretty much no real reason. It probably wouldn't be that bad if artifact removal wasn't everywhere so people could safely play their manarocks, but that would mean powerful artifacts would be hard to remove.
Your reasoning seems a bit odd. If a player finds a way to cripple your resources, the same as wiping your creature’s entirely… why is that a reason to despise the strategy? Without going into the “what if”? If a MLD presents an overwhelming amount of resources/creatures after destroying your lands. Would you still respond with the same statements you made?
@@eliasescamilla2556 I'd say if they have the board to deal massive damage, then that'd classify as them having a plan. I'll admit I do not play CEDH, I think stax and MLD are just unfun to deal with, but most people I've seen use a MLD card usually just use it to stall the game rather than use it to cripple resources to prevent their board from being picked apart.
@@JakeTheJay Thank you for elaborating on that! I think the community feels similar to you on the subject. In hope of creating a better environment, I pray that we (as a community) can expel the notion of this fictitious character that blows up lands for the sake of it, without winning. And to your last point….stax does kinda suck 😂. But we got to deal with it right?🤷🏽♂️
The only reason i really dont like MLD myself is it puts a target on myself in future games and people just get pissy. I had a nice hazezon Fall of thran tempo play and everyone just insta scooped which was really boring
I think the salt does come from the delaying of the game. Every mass land destruction deck I've played you never really win right off the bat. Lord windgrace was great with mass land destruction but it typically durdled for five turns to a victory. Meanwhile everyone else has to sit and hope to draw into something. Idk the real problem is it's become like some social contract even though like you said it's really not that big of a deal when someone breaks the norm they get salty.
I think it’s bad when they don’t win within two turns or do it with such a minor lead. I played vs a daretti deck and he mass land destruction on turn 5 with a sol ring and mind stone. He barely had a lead and did nothing until we had another 5 turns go by and he did it again and we all scooped. This was an online game and I feel like we should have been notified so I could play a better deck and not my shitty 5 color mutate.
Which is the more likely outcome, playing it in desperation. Either the egregious ramp goes out of control and you cast MLD. Then everybody slogs out, and that person gets to ramp again. Or you play it to close out the game (but you were likely going to anyways?)
Blindly playing MLD is not a solution to the problem it want s to solve. It has to many bystanders. If we don't want egregious amounts of ramp or combos winning quickly, then THAT is the problem to address.
Ive never used strong stax and I don't mind playing against it. Land destruction on the other hand I don't like; especially those who use acidic slime to blow up the 3rd land I had that locked me out of half the game - you know who you are.
If your opponents are dominant enough to lock you out of the game because of an acidic slime, there likely is an issue on your end. And if you didn't draw lands for 10 turns after, you need to train your luck! 😅 Jokes aside, that card is perfectly suited to punishing greedy mana bases. If it works too well against you, perhaps you could retool your list to deal with it better in the future, either by adding lands, changing your curve to be less reliant on that third land or finding better early ramp to compensate, especially outside of traditional ramp colors
I'm against banning cards all together. We all want to have fun and win the game in a fun way. If I play a deck or a card the i notice people hate I probably stop playing it after a few games and build somthing els. There are plenty of cards that can be abused to a point they are no fun anymore. And if someone keeps playing those I stop playing with them
What I don't understand is how the ban list is filled with cards because they're "unfun" as determined by the rules committee, but cards like Armageddon aren't on the list for.... reasons? Either they need to be less strict with the ban list, or they just really think MLD is fun. (And yes, I know the ban list is more of a suggestion. This is more about their line of thinking.)
Im still new to edh, but I really dislike how people frown upon mdl. Why is the green guy allowed to play 2 lands a turn and I cant do anything about it? Tbh, everytime I point this out, people cut me some slack and mostly stop complaining.
Both can be taboo... At least egregious ramp like land decks. MLD just isn't the solution as it creates bystanders, and robs the players of the basic, necessary resource of the game. But ramping for just two lands? Have you seen treasures??? In short, extreme ramp and extreme land removal are just that, and require group talk first.
The issue with MLD is that the deck builder has no follow up plan to end the game, and hoping people would just scoop/concede is a terrible wincon. And the second issue with MLD is that its scapegoated to hell by people just bandwagoning hate for it. They actually think MLD is a form of disrespect, combined with the whole, "its toxic gameplay" statement. MLD been done dirty, but both the users and the victims.
I agree with the first sentence quite a bit, but I think your second point is misrepresentative. There are plenty of reasons to not like MLD. Including the fact that it just is not well balanced for the mechanics of the game, where your essential resources are in the form of cards you played. Other tabletop games do not do this, and would not win design awards if there were mechanics taking all of your essential resources away from the game. And it is only in the game because of the chaos and vastness of card variety. It creates many bystanders who are now not able to play the game or have agency over the deck they created. it hoses even people that the strategy It doesn't really fit well with the popular sphere of commander decks such as new players decks like precons. While I actually agree that it can be disrespectful because it is often mixed with a lack of communication at the beginning of the game, I also think it is common to claim someone else is bandwagoning if they present a point you disagree with.
I just feel like any strategy that disables your opponents strategy an furthers yours is kind of the point of Magic. I don't necessarily play mass land destruction but im a mono black player an if I see a Gaes Cradle, Lake of the Dead, Nykthos, another Urborg im Sinkholin that shit. I have Stax effects in most of my decks but it's another dickish play I guess? But graveyard hate is cool?
I am 100 percent in the camp that all land destruction, balance effects (including Balance and Limited Resources), and stax should be incorporated fully into commander. The problem is people are lazy and don't want to build their decks responsibly enough to deal with them. If you are a graveyard deck, you should be prepared to deal with effects that stop graveyard decks. If you are a deck that needs tons of mana, you should be able to stop effects that prevent you from doing that too. If 3 opponents can't deal with a land wipe, they SHOULD lose. Same goes for a winter orb or stasis. Now, I also think we should bring back Shahrazad, and no one agrees with me on that :) - I loved that card and still have the one I've had since 94.
I have always been of the opinion that people are misguided in thinking they hate mass land destruction. I THINK they hate a hypothetical person who doesn't know how to play mass land destruction. Because, someone amateurishly running and playing mass land destruction just knows they enjoy salt, not how to properly put the right amount in their dish.
Similarly, I don't think people hate infect. They hate proliferate. Getting around having to hit with poison counters for 1/4th your health is when it becomes problematic. You have more of a say about infect attackers hitting you or not. Not the case with proliferate.
People who complain about boardwipes and land destruction are just bad magic player. They don't want to learn the game, they don't win, so they complain.
I'm absolutely fine with MLD, ideally when its asymmetrical so it's leads to someone winning. With no Land destruction, decks ramping lands every turn (which is often quite slow due to the searching and shuffling) have a big advantage.
I find most of the people that complain about land destruction are the players that don’t play interaction, don’t build their decks to win through incremental damage, and are just generally bad magic players
@@chrisbenson6753 I really don’t think it is helpful/constructive to assume part of your community is bad at what they do. It’s fine to have differing perspectives. To me, people that blindly play whatever they want at the expense of the table are bad at playing EDH. Because they missed the memo on the social aspect of the format. But I don’t think that correlates to a general inability.
@@VexylObbyi think it depends on your definition of "instant" especially when cards like craterhoof, exsanguinate, cyclonic rift, torment of hailfire, etc etc etc exist. By this logic anything that isn't creature based wins is an "instant win"
I think part of the issue here is that edh really draws more new players than any other format. When you're a new player and all (most) of the content creators you see talking about it are saying that mld and stax are bad, etc you tend to assume they're right . So we have an influx of new players, many of whom don't realize that the reason so and so's deck is running away with the game is because most people have been scared off of the stumbling blocks that are generally accepted in other formats. At the end of the day, most of my decks recover better from mld than vandalblast. But ultimately I think the voices new people are listening to need to start examining the health of the format objectively, and not worry about whether their opinions are popular. As an aside, I relate on a super personal level to the "hold up instant speed exile/bounce for Avacyn in response to the mld " Edited for spelling and grammar.
That isn't why new players do not tend to like MLD. It is more because older players come from formats where it makes sense, or they were just normalized to feel that way. MLD IS miserable for most non-sweatly power levels and does not make sense for a tabletop game with necessary resources. There are many reasons why it is taboo and for rule 0 inclusion.
I feel as though the EDH Rules Committee needs to officially implement a new rule regarding mass land destruction by creating a replacement effect by allowing players whose lands get destroyed to search their library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped under their control.
MLD is good when you have a plan when you cast it. Just randomly casting an Armageddon just cause you got 4 mana open is a jerk move. Also Adept of Caelus Nin is so hillarious in certain blink decks. Blink it out in the endstep before your turn, phase your stuff back in, during your endstep return it, phase everybody elses stuff out and phase your non lock pieces out too to protect them. Rinse and repeat every turn.
I think MLD used to end the game is just another way to end the game and totally valid, if tou use MLD to stall the game for another hour, that’s when it becomes annoying, but I’ll still play that game. Same with stax for me.
Well it depends. Mass land destruction is forbidden in our playgroup because we don't have the counter measures in our decks becase we don't shit money.
Hey @lordmalkom! I just want to suggest to your group that proxies are a healthy way for players to explore other archetypes without breaking the bank. I know that times can be rough but that shouldn’t stop your playgroup from having fun. Coming from a player that has created five groups in three different countries. Forbidding a play-style just because you don’t have responses to a play makes for a poor magic experience. Your decks should be tested to the best of their abilities. And the brewers as well! If the only thing you face are token heavy, equipment themed decks…what are you really gaining? (Unless that is your preferred method of play) I say all of this to welcome your group to various play styles and to broaden your horizons to other forms of play. 🤙🏽
The “rules committee” is not balanced... In my playgroup we have our own better rules and ban list. So we play decks that have balance and its fine 💪🏻👍🏻👍🏻💯✌🏻
I always play with some form of targeted land removal as it generally tends to be much more impactful and is not going to be a card sitting in my hand the whole game waiting for the “perfect” time to play, but I don’t really care if someone wants to play with mass land destruction. My biggest issue with playing commander is people just dragging the game out unnecessarily by making SUBOPTIMAL plays that do not forward the game in a meaningful way…you are not hurting anyone’s feelings by ending the game. I play to have fun but also to win (or lose) if that’s the way the cards play out that game.
Could you imagine if someone cast teferi's protection in response to balancing act. That's brutal
Imagine being prepared for the game.
@@ErgoProdigy what does that even mean lol
Funny side note: if you're running a blink deck, Urza's Sylex becomes a tutor.
You're welcome.
I have softened a lot on mass land destruction. The fact of the matter is that I have an extremely powerful simic commander deck that will eventually overwhelm the opponent with big mana spells. Even stuff like counterspells doesn’t really work against the deck because I can give my big mana spells cascade and thus have a card on the back that my opponent will have to further spend removal on. Stax and mass land destruction are the best ways of preventing that deck from doing its thing.
Decklist?
@@zimbobway3137
Commander: Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty
Main Deck
1 Rush of Knowledge
1 Seal of Primordium
15 Island
1 Reshape the Earth
1 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
1 Tatyova, Benthic Druid
1 Up the Beanstalk
1 The Great Henge
1 Hullbreaker Horror
1 Questing Beast
1 Time Stretch
1 Aminatou's Augury
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Migration Path
1 Nyxbloom Ancient
1 Eureka Moment
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Defiler of Vigor
1 Urban Evolution
1 Expropriate
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Omniscience
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Zendikar Resurgent
1 Search for Tomorrow
1 One with the Multiverse
1 Thryx, the Sudden Storm
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rishkar's Expertise
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Last March of the Ents
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Defiler of Dreams
1 Wondrous Crucible
1 Selvala, Heart of the Wilds
1 Nissa, Ascended Animist
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant
1 Homeward Path
1 Arcane Endeavor
1 Invasion of Zendikar
1 Command Tower
15 Forest
1 Troyan, Gutsy Explorer
1 Malevolent Hermit
1 The Great Synthesis
1 Blade of Selves
1 Enter the Infinite
1 Sylvan Library
1 Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Exploration
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Arcane Signet
1 Mana Reflection
1 Reap and Sow
1 Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Strait
1 Thrashing Brontodon
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Cultivate
1 Sol Ring
1 Outland Liberator
1 Ash Barrens
1 Mystical Tutor
Sounds like decks like that are just an issue. Land decks in general are a bit taboo for how much value they get, ruining the fun for any other themes to exist healthily.
Thank you. Definitely see blue green decks become unstoppable once the big mana gets flowing.
Hit em with a wild fire and sulfuric vortex.
Best late game MLD is Cleansing, from The Dark. I actually run it as a white 'burn' spell, but it does have that land destruction! Creates some really 'fun' situations and is incredibly unique.
Nice Card
I used to run that card. Took it out because triple white was tough occasionally. Also a dead card until later in the game
100% Trash card.
@@BatCaveOz 100% trash avatar
I run Obliterate in my boros planeswalker deck as a finisher. It always resolves and gets rid of creatures and mana rocks without touching my walkers, putting me way ahead on board
I do something similar with Worldgorger Dragon and Obliterate. 😎
I have a mono white landfall deck that utilizes land destruction/recursion to win, I jump through a lot of hoops to make people feel better about the land destruction, glad to hear it’s not always seen as the most treacherous thing in magic!
Thank you for covering it! I feel that every strategy should be explored. But since this is a social game, we should (as land destruction players) win as soon as possible after destroying lands.
Personally I feel it's fine in decks like Kaalia, Zurgo and Negan (Malik). Where you can see the overwhelming advantage that the deck will have over others affected by land destruction.
@@Blacklodge_Willy Absolutely, more players should be open to the idea that the game was meant to be played in various ways. Strategy such as mill, infect, commander dmg, etc. are all viable to include land destruction. 💯
Agreed. I would say mass land destruction may even make agro decks much more viable. The issue is blowing up everyone’s lands but not having a way to close out the game
No. Not all strategies HAVE to exist. That is far too chaotic. In fact, it is impossible. When everything is allowed, fewer are viable. With restrictions set in rule 0 and common taboo, we allow for other themes to thrive.
@@eliasescamilla2556 Because of the vastness of it, things like playgroups and rule 0 are required, or else there is no chance for most themes to prosper.
I'd say that while mld is a viable win condition, the problem is it drags out games if it doesn't close it out. I get your sentiment of "why complain about playing more magic" but I'd argue playing 1 match for a long time is not "playing more magic" since you're stuck with the same deck in the same game. With that logic, playing Shahrazad is "playing more magic".
Also the issue with it being used as a wincon is that if it is disrupted in any way (such as the example you provided with Avacyn getting hit with Swords to Plowshares) then it either punishes the whole board with a longer game, or it hands the win to someone who didn't even play the card. Neither are ideal situations for the pod and can cause quite a bit of salt.
You should not play the game.
If you believe it is PUNISHMENT to play after countering a strategy, you should just not play at all.
The vast majority of people playing commander, play the same decks regularly.
1) you are free to concede if you are not able to recover from the mld
2) i'd love to see sharazad unbanned in edh
I try to stay away from land destruction in most of my decks, but I did discover a combo with Obliterate that I use in one of them when im in a pinch.
What are your opinions on shivan harvest? Commander is Hofri Ghostforge. Imagine harvest is the only sac outlet I have on the field. I want to trigger etb or death triggers of my creatures. When is acceptable to blow up lands? Should I blow up lands if I'm in the lead?
Fall of Thran is a reasonable land destruction card imo
And also a reasonable piece to advance your own game plan in landfall and land recursion decks (Hazezon f.i.)
Especially if you stop it from bringing back lands! 😂
Not it isn't. The decks that run it can recur it and break parity. It is miserable to play against. Reason is it high on the salt list.
I think we just need to break down what MLD is doing in a game.
1) It can be card advantage. If a green player has done nothing but ramp for 4 turns in a row and has 8 lands in play and 1 card in hand. If we consider board wipes a form of card advantage, then this is the same. If an elf ball player has 1 land in play and 10 elves on turn 4 and you wrath of god, it has the same outcome. I think the latter is considered a fair play in EDH so the first must be as well.
2) It is a form of tempo play. If you have a winning board state and your you dont think your opponents have interaction, or you can push though it, then you will win the game. Its no different from legacy with grixis delver. Have a 3/2 flyer on turn 1, and then counter everything your opponents do as you swing in for damage. This is the same fundamental play as Avacyn casting Armageddon. Tempo plays are fair game in EDH.
At this point I think some people just like to whine and are having fake arguments with imaginary people.
It also hoses the one essential resource for anybody in the game. It is poor design for a 4 player board game. Mainly because it wasn't designed for this format. No wonder it is taboo.
Also, what reason does one have to play it? Because of skewed land amounts? Sounds like a different problem should be addressed...
I'm building a hazezon deck and he benefits from lands in the graveyard. So if I want lands in the graveyard then other people will want their lands in the graveyard....right?
bro i built Hazezon the naya commander to lay desert lands from my graveyard and ive been testing it with the new desert lands from thunder junction and broooooo its hilarious. lmk if you want the list i can shoot it to you. actually ill leave it in comments.
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Tantalite
1 Skyclave Relic
1 Conduit of Worlds
1 Chrome Mox
1 Smokestack
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 The One Ring
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Skullclamp
1 Dryad of the Ilysian Grove
1 World Shaper
1 Ancient Greenwarden
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Keldon Firebombers
1 Myojin of Infinite Rage
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Sun Titan
1 Fall of the Thran
1 Exploration
1 Impending Disaster
1 Smothering Tithe
1 Cryptolith Rite
1 Planar Collapse
1 Heliod's Intervention
1 Desert of the True
1 Cascading Cataracts
1 Windswept Heath
1 Desert of the Indomitable
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Desert of the Fervent
1 Scavenger Grounds
1 Hashep Oasis
1 Dunes of the Dead
1 Arid Mesa
1 Endless Sands
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Shefet Dunes
1 Survivors' Encampment
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
1 Thornglint Bridge
1 Slagwoods Bridge
1 Rustvale Bridge
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Desert
1 Ramunap Ruins
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Spectator Seating
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Painted Bluffs
1 Grasping Dunes
1 Vesuva
1 Jetmir's Garden
1 Jungle Shrine
1 Bristling Backwoods
1 Creosote Heath
1 Abraded Bluffs
1 Command Tower
1 Mirage Mesa
1 Conduit Pylons
1 Drownyard Temple
1 Cactus Preserve
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Jokulhaups
1 Ravages of War
1 Catastrophe
1 Tectonic Break
1 By Force
1 Bend or Break
1 Life from the Loam
1 Boom // Bust
1 Ruination
1 Armageddon
1 Thoughts of Ruin
1 Worldfire
1 Wildfire
1 Apocalypse
1 Restore Balance
1 Devastation
1 Vandalblast
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Cataclysm
1 Splendid Reclamation
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Destructive Force
1 Obliterate
1 Wrath of God
1 Farewell
1 Razia's Purification
1 Hazezon, Shaper of Sand
Considering replacing Voriclex, Voice of Hunger with Etali, Primal Storm.
As far as win percentage i would say 45% of games are won immediately. 15% grind out the win and 40% loss.
deck list disappeared i can send through discord.
Thank you for this list I've been trying to find a good way to do this lol, but for me it's obuun and big chunky lands 😅
I really want to put Tectonic Break and Tectonic Instability in my Chiss/Goria deck. People get so sore even if you rule 0 it.
I would use the same argument that I use for stax. If it effects everyone but you then it is fine. If it effects everyone then it is not fine.
Yes. It is a 4 player game, and we are but 1/4 of that.
is there an argument for adding an artifact steal or poison counters to make it more dangerous?
Thank you for this. Casual game doesn't mean solitaire to see who goes off first. Well atleast those aren't the pods i want to play in
You are so correct. Too many people lose it cause they cant do their thing every game. They become so fixated on doing the thing they want they leave out interaction to deal with things. Real.deck building has gone by the wayside in favor of i must do the coolest splashiest thing.
@@weaseljester2077 It isn't mutually exclusive. People can do flashy things and make sure other people do not run away with the game. And MLD also stops people from doing anything at all!
So, funny story. I have an avacyn deck. It's not a boardwipe tribal, it's just angel tribal. It doesn't have more boardwipes than a normal deck has, it's just a fun deck. Most angels are big and hit hard, you make a board, include avacyn, and then you have a big board of big creatures that's really hard to out. Fun. I like it. My friends used to like it, they used to say it was fun to play against it. But then, here's the catch: I had two cards that destroyed all lands. They were not my main win condition, I did not have any ways to tutor then, it was just a "hey, if I draw it I can use it" situation, just an alt win con. I played 10+ games with this deck vs my friends, never drew them, and they said that that was my deck that they liked the most to play against, that it was a very fair deck, that did strong stuff but it wasn't oppressive, that it didn't win the game quickly with any combos, or whatever, they loved it... Until the day I drew armaggedon. The moment I cast it, it was like a switched turned into their brain, they became ANGRY, they said that MLD was not for casual commander, that now they had to sit there and do nothing, and I was like "you can just surrender" "no, we have to play it out" "ok, then play it out" "BUT IT WILL BE BORING" "then surrender" "but what if I can win the game?" "It's gonna be hard, I have 9 mana and 20 power on the field, you guys have 0 mana and almost nothing, but you can try" "BUT TRYING WILL BE BORING" "It's ok man, I won the game" "NO YOU DIDN'T, WE CAN STILL WIN" and from here you can imagine where this is going. From what I see, that situation wasn't different from just... winning with a combo, cause let's be real, that game was won, I had advantage that would win me the game in a few turns, it wouldn't take long even if we played it out, but seeing MLD triggers an irrational response in people, to the point that now they say that they hate that deck the most between my deck and refuse to play against it, even if before that we had 10+ great games with that deck, the one game where I blew all of their lands made them forget it, so yeah, I think that MLD hate is above everything an emotional response. I'm all for MLD as a win condition, I think it sucks as a stax strategy, a way to prolong the game, but using it to end the game like I did, I'm all for it and wouldn't be mad if someone did it to me.
You need a new pg
You should consider using paragraphs.
Or Spacing... or line breaks... or something.
That sharae game had the urzas sylex. I normally use it to tutor for my walkers but since as you pointed out, i had a target on my back (partly because you were also proliferating lmao) i pulled the trigger on sylex. But ya, it actually wasnt bad at all. And i still got to tutor up jace the unraveler and ulting him. Very fun game haha
you just gave me a bunch of potential game-enders for my Carmen Cruel Skymarcher deck! 🤩
I feel like its healthy for commander, land decks are un-interactive mass land removal is an answer to it.
I ran a land destruction deck but I would only wipe the board when it benefitted me. If I had three or 4 indestructible lands and would gain a significant advantage from it, I would do it. I would however never cast land destruction spells if I was about to lose just to prolong things.
It's not a problem so long as land destruction ends in a win condition.
Link for patron??
in the description
Between Disciple of Caelus Nin and urza's sylex i realy am temped to try landdestruction out, mostly as an equalizer. My main problem is that i like playing mana intensive cards.
I'll agree with this. I play Dimensional Breach, Warp World, and Urza's Sylex in 3 different decks. In each if I resolve it the game is over on a turn or two. But that is just because the decks are set up to take advantage of the scenario when they play out.
When people say it drags the game out I think it's less about the length of the game and more about the style of game play you are forced into. I don't mind a multi directional lock on the game where I have to be really clever about how I spend my resources. I don't care for a game where I've been costed out of playing.
In my mind it's less about which board wipe you use and more about leveraging it in your flavor. My Syr Gwyn deck was board wipes tribal at one point, once I started wiping the game usually didn't last long because I was wiping to pull ahead.
Costed out ? Isn't that the whole point of repeatedly killing a player's Commander ? To make it cost too much to bring into play ?
@@nobodyshome6792 it's been I minute since I made this comment. I think I meant to say locked out and auto correct grabbed it.
I built a Grixis deck and the entire idea is it runs havoc festival so it deals a lot of damage to the table. I figured I might as well run some mass land destruction just to try and protect my damage dealing it ends the game quickly does not drag the game on.
I play an Alela deck which runs around 12 mana rocks and i also play 3-4 indestructible artifact lands. I ran land destruction because i was insulated from it. There are so many answers to land destruction in commanders, even in casual.
I love the indestructible lands. I use them along side cleansing wildfire and geomancers gambit to turn them into cantriping ramp spells that also double up as removal for broken lands. Getting wrecked by farewell/karn/stony silence feels pretty bad tho
People shouldn't have to meta deck like that and replace lands with indestructible ones just so people have an excuse to ruin MLD...
I agree I wouldn't mind if I saw land destruction in an edh game
For the last two years I’ve been slowly putting together a Mardu MLD deck. I have about 80% of the cards I want for it, but the biggest hurdle to finishing it is the commander itself.
People have suggested Zurgo Helmsmasher for his limited indestructibility, but it just feels… off, for some reason. I may end up going with a partner pair but nothing has really jumped out at me so far.
As for breaking parity, there is a line that I want to play in order to close out the game that uses Balancing Act. It’s actually a card I think would help a lot of decks that are just naturally slower. It punishes people who have more lands than they should and/or drawn more cards than they should.
Follow up Assemble the Legion, after a few turns of development, with Jokulhaups. Assemble stays in play, churning out dudes. Either have a wincon (even if someone foils it), or it's bad form; the Warp World scenario/example.
I made a whole land destruction commander deck with Zevlor as the commander so single target land destruction. Cards turn into mass destruction
Mass land destruction with no plan is understandably frowned upon. When played like win cons more power to them.
Lol, the only time I run mass land D is in my stax deck. Estrid, I put totem armor on my lands, untapping them and for extra mana, then as a win con I just let Armageddon fly...after that it is usually scoop city.
16:21 I couldn't agree more
As long as players want to play combo, I'll destroy their permanents, lands included.
I've been on the receiving end of someone who did the Worldslayer thing and then said "pass turn" ... THAT is what I think the reputation of MPD is... someone who just pops off a "reset the board completely, lands included" effect and we then are back to the beginning stages of the game, but now we are stuck with whatever was in our hand before the effect resolved.
If it's "I'm going to cast Delirium Skeins to empty everyone's hand then Worldslayer with Zurgo" , that is probably a more "okay" way to play it because there's a plan here... it's not "throw the MPD effect then hope and pray nobody else rebuilds faster than I do." So I think your points are valid... MPD isn't necessarily "bad" , it is more the anecdotal experiences of that one time where someone Worldslayers then passes.
The increased prevalence of "board saves" and "board protection" type cards NOW compared to "old commander" (most of the anecdotes I know of someone casting Armageddon or Worldslayering with Avacyn in play come from "old commander") is what I think makes the argument FOR more common MPD effects valid. When commander started there were more really old MPD effects and not enough ways to protect your board from them.
I still think it is just a feel bad if you don't have that ONE card that saves your lands. I still think it is a rule 0 thing to figure out.
I play a Mogis/Enchantment deck that runs Jokulhaups as a win-con - Jokulhaups leaves Enchantments alone. I also have an Armageddon in my Liesa, Shroud of Dusk voltron/boardwipe deck; destroying all lands w/ Liesa being the only creature on deck is back-breaking. One of the people I play against regularly uses Armageddon & Winter Orb in an Selvala, Explorer Returned deck. It's all in the group you play with.
Similar thing in my Ghen Punisher deck. But I play Devastation. It leaves Enchantments and Artifacts alone so mine can keep doing damage
Similar thing here, I play a few MLD cards in an Obunn list that focuses on bringing back lands from the graveyard, generally all at once.
Even if my opponent manage to protect their lands, the 10+ landfall triggers I get from my own returning usually bring me forward quite a bit, and if they couldn't protect themselves then the game usually closes out quickly
I love dimensional breech. I am buying one today.
Adding Cataclysm to the Carmen, Cruel Skymarcher deck. That's a win con.
I think it should be more accepted as a tool, everytime I play a wasteland I get shit for it, as though rogue's passage or other lands that can cause someone to win the game dont exist.
Great topic to debate Demo. In the cases you talk about where somebody closes the game quickly i dont see any problem. The main problem comes when a lot of people play those cards without a plan or for revenge 'cause they see no options to win quickly. Hapoens to me a lot, and feels horrible. It's hard to make everyone play it properly :)
I would love to play a 4 hour game, problem is that i know that if i ever get in a 4 hour game i will lose within the first half hour. Then i got to sit around shuffling my deck while waiting for it to end.
All I know is I cast Destructive Force turn 5 or 6 one game to try to close out the game with a voltron commander and got the dirtiest looks
Then there's Natural Balence. In Green. It brings everyone to 5 lands. Let's anyone with less land search for enough basics. Depending on how many colors they're running. They may not have many if any.
Lol, it´s funny, mostly because green is the better color in order to ramp.
Felt spicy so added a Destructive Urge to my Slicer deck
Depends. I built Kiki-Jiki in 2013. Infinite land destruction among other things. I built the deck to make a point(you cant make monored competitive), but it did drag games out. And nobody loved playing against it.
I have a jund target Land destruction tribal... It sucks😂😂 but it's so janky it's fun.
It's the same as cc in mmos. Nobody wants to be rendered helpless. Or unable to act.
I never cast MLD unless I am 95% sure I win the game/everybody is tapped, and it is highly underrated imo, at least in my playgrous, but tbf almost nobody play white. I run Armageddon on my Sigarda voltron deck and my Gisela deck. On sigarda there's practically no way she is getting removed in response. On my Gisela deck melding her into Brisela almost guarantees a safe win with no counters/indestructible effects
And that argument for MLD is not very strong, because you have to be ahead for the card to matter just for yourself. Otherwise it is a dead card. Might as well call taboo on crazy amounts of ramp...
Lands are just another card type. WotC used to understand this.
It's a card game.... How else are we supposed to have tangible resources????
Soulscour is a wincon in my Osgir deck.
Decree of enialation got me banned from a discord server Heres the story. I was playing gavi nest warden a commander that cycles cards for free and creates tokens I told them I have the decree of enialation in my deck before the game and said its ok as long as "Im not toxic with it." so we are playing and Im mana screwed with 2 lands on turn six with a few artifacts. I had no other plays besides to cycle decree of enialation for free. everone gets mad and they all agree to kill me and only target me. I said ok but now I have the edge with mana thanks to my mana rocks. Game progresses and Im down to three life after everyone going for me. I get dranith healer get into a cycling rhythm and shot up to 27 and stall a few turns before I get aproch of the second sun and win. the table is shocked that I just 3v1 them and just replied gg. they were so salty that they preceded to say the the land destruction should be removed from my deck and ended call. A week later. I get banned by the admin saying he was told I played land destruction despite being told not to from the group I was with. I tried to explain but he said I was lying according to the other players in the group. Was I in the wrong let me know.
Folks have complained about land destruction for as long as the game has existed. They complain about counter magic almost as much.
People hate effective strategies, it is that simple.
I rarely play mass land destruction. I play other mass board wipes only if necessary and if the game has been going on more than an hour, I probably won't play it. It depends on the game and who's playing. With certain players in the group, I won't because the game is guaranteed to be slow and boring and i just want it to end. Other players, I don't mind extending the game because we are going to be having fun. The only deck i've ever made that had mass land destruction was a grixis superfriends edh deck. I had a Jokulhaups in the deck and would play it after getting a few planeswalkers in play. I would ONLY play it if i had enough planeswalkers out. I may not win instantly, (depends on which planeswalkers are out) but It basically ends the game because everyone realizes that i'm too far ahead and they scoop. Playing mass land destruction just to play it with no actual plan to win the game is usually not OK especially if the game has already been going on for more than an hour. Commander night in my shop is usually about 4 hours. I do not want to play one game in 4 hours and most don't either. I've had guys in the playgroup that would drive 20-30 minutes to get to the shop. Imagine driving for 30 minutes to play one long slow game, not win, and then drive 30 minutes home.
Great video
Demo is using this video to preface his Boros land destruction deck tech.
The main reason I despise it is that I don't want to restart the game when it's almost over. Most of the time people don't have a gameplan for when they Armageddon and it just drags out the game and stalls it. It kills momentum and usually nothing happens until we reach the amount of mana we had before. A creature boardwipe is more likely going to end the game that turn for at least one player, a land wipe rarely does that and just drags the game on for pretty much no real reason. It probably wouldn't be that bad if artifact removal wasn't everywhere so people could safely play their manarocks, but that would mean powerful artifacts would be hard to remove.
Your reasoning seems a bit odd. If a player finds a way to cripple your resources, the same as wiping your creature’s entirely… why is that a reason to despise the strategy?
Without going into the “what if”? If a MLD presents an overwhelming amount of resources/creatures after destroying your lands.
Would you still respond with the same statements you made?
@@eliasescamilla2556 I'd say if they have the board to deal massive damage, then that'd classify as them having a plan. I'll admit I do not play CEDH, I think stax and MLD are just unfun to deal with, but most people I've seen use a MLD card usually just use it to stall the game rather than use it to cripple resources to prevent their board from being picked apart.
@@JakeTheJay Thank you for elaborating on that! I think the community feels similar to you on the subject.
In hope of creating a better environment, I pray that we (as a community) can expel the notion of this fictitious character that blows up lands for the sake of it, without winning.
And to your last point….stax does kinda suck 😂. But we got to deal with it right?🤷🏽♂️
The only reason i really dont like MLD myself is it puts a target on myself in future games and people just get pissy. I had a nice hazezon Fall of thran tempo play and everyone just insta scooped which was really boring
LET HIM SPEAK!
I think the salt does come from the delaying of the game. Every mass land destruction deck I've played you never really win right off the bat. Lord windgrace was great with mass land destruction but it typically durdled for five turns to a victory. Meanwhile everyone else has to sit and hope to draw into something.
Idk the real problem is it's become like some social contract even though like you said it's really not that big of a deal when someone breaks the norm they get salty.
Closest card to land destruction i play is cataclysm. Fun in my Liesa drck and pisses my friends off 😂
I think it’s bad when they don’t win within two turns or do it with such a minor lead. I played vs a daretti deck and he mass land destruction on turn 5 with a sol ring and mind stone. He barely had a lead and did nothing until we had another 5 turns go by and he did it again and we all scooped. This was an online game and I feel like we should have been notified so I could play a better deck and not my shitty 5 color mutate.
Which is the more likely outcome, playing it in desperation. Either the egregious ramp goes out of control and you cast MLD. Then everybody slogs out, and that person gets to ramp again. Or you play it to close out the game (but you were likely going to anyways?)
Blindly playing MLD is not a solution to the problem it want s to solve. It has to many bystanders. If we don't want egregious amounts of ramp or combos winning quickly, then THAT is the problem to address.
Ive never used strong stax and I don't mind playing against it. Land destruction on the other hand I don't like; especially those who use acidic slime to blow up the 3rd land I had that locked me out of half the game - you know who you are.
If your opponents are dominant enough to lock you out of the game because of an acidic slime, there likely is an issue on your end. And if you didn't draw lands for 10 turns after, you need to train your luck! 😅
Jokes aside, that card is perfectly suited to punishing greedy mana bases. If it works too well against you, perhaps you could retool your list to deal with it better in the future, either by adding lands, changing your curve to be less reliant on that third land or finding better early ramp to compensate, especially outside of traditional ramp colors
Now talk about how chaos is a viable and fun puzzle to solve as well
I'm against banning cards all together. We all want to have fun and win the game in a fun way. If I play a deck or a card the i notice people hate I probably stop playing it after a few games and build somthing els. There are plenty of cards that can be abused to a point they are no fun anymore. And if someone keeps playing those I stop playing with them
Lands are the most powerful cards in the game. The idea that they are off limits is absurd.
Amazing!
What I don't understand is how the ban list is filled with cards because they're "unfun" as determined by the rules committee, but cards like Armageddon aren't on the list for.... reasons?
Either they need to be less strict with the ban list, or they just really think MLD is fun.
(And yes, I know the ban list is more of a suggestion. This is more about their line of thinking.)
Because people fear bans and are extremely unbearable in the community.
Also, Balance is on the list.
Im still new to edh, but I really dislike how people frown upon mdl. Why is the green guy allowed to play 2 lands a turn and I cant do anything about it?
Tbh, everytime I point this out, people cut me some slack and mostly stop complaining.
Both can be taboo... At least egregious ramp like land decks.
MLD just isn't the solution as it creates bystanders, and robs the players of the basic, necessary resource of the game. But ramping for just two lands? Have you seen treasures???
In short, extreme ramp and extreme land removal are just that, and require group talk first.
The issue with MLD is that the deck builder has no follow up plan to end the game, and hoping people would just scoop/concede is a terrible wincon.
And the second issue with MLD is that its scapegoated to hell by people just bandwagoning hate for it. They actually think MLD is a form of disrespect, combined with the whole, "its toxic gameplay" statement.
MLD been done dirty, but both the users and the victims.
I agree with the first sentence quite a bit, but I think your second point is misrepresentative. There are plenty of reasons to not like MLD.
Including the fact that it just is not well balanced for the mechanics of the game, where your essential resources are in the form of cards you played. Other tabletop games do not do this, and would not win design awards if there were mechanics taking all of your essential resources away from the game. And it is only in the game because of the chaos and vastness of card variety.
It creates many bystanders who are now not able to play the game or have agency over the deck they created. it hoses even people that the strategy
It doesn't really fit well with the popular sphere of commander decks such as new players decks like precons.
While I actually agree that it can be disrespectful because it is often mixed with a lack of communication at the beginning of the game, I also think it is common to claim someone else is bandwagoning if they present a point you disagree with.
I just feel like any strategy that disables your opponents strategy an furthers yours is kind of the point of Magic. I don't necessarily play mass land destruction but im a mono black player an if I see a Gaes Cradle, Lake of the Dead, Nykthos, another Urborg im Sinkholin that shit. I have Stax effects in most of my decks but it's another dickish play I guess? But graveyard hate is cool?
I'm constantly putting a Desolation in my Windgrace and then taking it out because I get tired of listening to the whining about it.
Advice Misunderstood: Kicked from my playgroup for playing a Thalia MLD deck
So many people scoop to a mass LD and it's so annoying
it’s such an unfun element you need to remember that
anything that shuts down other players and keeps them from the reason they are there. to play a game, sucks..period
I am 100 percent in the camp that all land destruction, balance effects (including Balance and Limited Resources), and stax should be incorporated fully into commander. The problem is people are lazy and don't want to build their decks responsibly enough to deal with them. If you are a graveyard deck, you should be prepared to deal with effects that stop graveyard decks. If you are a deck that needs tons of mana, you should be able to stop effects that prevent you from doing that too. If 3 opponents can't deal with a land wipe, they SHOULD lose. Same goes for a winter orb or stasis.
Now, I also think we should bring back Shahrazad, and no one agrees with me on that :) - I loved that card and still have the one I've had since 94.
Yes. Anyway..
I have always been of the opinion that people are misguided in thinking they hate mass land destruction. I THINK they hate a hypothetical person who doesn't know how to play mass land destruction. Because, someone amateurishly running and playing mass land destruction just knows they enjoy salt, not how to properly put the right amount in their dish.
Similarly, I don't think people hate infect. They hate proliferate. Getting around having to hit with poison counters for 1/4th your health is when it becomes problematic. You have more of a say about infect attackers hitting you or not. Not the case with proliferate.
People who complain about boardwipes and land destruction are just bad magic player.
They don't want to learn the game, they don't win, so they complain.
You forgot catastrophe
I'm absolutely fine with MLD, ideally when its asymmetrical so it's leads to someone winning.
With no Land destruction, decks ramping lands every turn (which is often quite slow due to the searching and shuffling) have a big advantage.
I find most of the people that complain about land destruction are the players that don’t play interaction, don’t build their decks to win through incremental damage, and are just generally bad magic players
That's extremely presumptuous. You can run sufficient interaction and know the taboo of MLD.
@@VexylObby It’s not a presumption. I’ve clearly stated this has been my experience, anyone else’s may differ.
@@chrisbenson6753 I really don’t think it is helpful/constructive to assume part of your community is bad at what they do. It’s fine to have differing perspectives. To me, people that blindly play whatever they want at the expense of the table are bad at playing EDH. Because they missed the memo on the social aspect of the format. But I don’t think that correlates to a general inability.
Really think the player should let everyone know first so they can know what they are getting into
Yup, it is taboo, but perfectly find if the group consents.
As an OG player from the Revised era, Mass Land D was just what white did.
Instant wins are just no fun. It makes the rest of the game feel meaningless.
@@VexylObbyi think it depends on your definition of "instant" especially when cards like craterhoof, exsanguinate, cyclonic rift, torment of hailfire, etc etc etc exist. By this logic anything that isn't creature based wins is an "instant win"
@@FrenchToastMafia735 Cmon now. Lol
It’s more about spontaneous wins that had no real buildup or theme to them.
you must like to sit at a table and just watch others play if you like land destruction
I run wildfires and destructive force in my korvold deck. He already gets hate so i just lean into it.
I think part of the issue here is that edh really draws more new players than any other format. When you're a new player and all (most) of the content creators you see talking about it are saying that mld and stax are bad, etc you tend to assume they're right . So we have an influx of new players, many of whom don't realize that the reason so and so's deck is running away with the game is because most people have been scared off of the stumbling blocks that are generally accepted in other formats. At the end of the day, most of my decks recover better from mld than vandalblast. But ultimately I think the voices new people are listening to need to start examining the health of the format objectively, and not worry about whether their opinions are popular.
As an aside, I relate on a super personal level to the "hold up instant speed exile/bounce for Avacyn in response to the mld "
Edited for spelling and grammar.
That isn't why new players do not tend to like MLD. It is more because older players come from formats where it makes sense, or they were just normalized to feel that way. MLD IS miserable for most non-sweatly power levels and does not make sense for a tabletop game with necessary resources. There are many reasons why it is taboo and for rule 0 inclusion.
I feel as though the EDH Rules Committee needs to officially implement a new rule regarding mass land destruction by creating a replacement effect by allowing players whose lands get destroyed to search their library for a basic land card and put it onto the battlefield tapped under their control.
MLD is good when you have a plan when you cast it. Just randomly casting an Armageddon just cause you got 4 mana open is a jerk move.
Also Adept of Caelus Nin is so hillarious in certain blink decks. Blink it out in the endstep before your turn, phase your stuff back in, during your endstep return it, phase everybody elses stuff out and phase your non lock pieces out too to protect them. Rinse and repeat every turn.
I think MLD used to end the game is just another way to end the game and totally valid, if tou use MLD to stall the game for another hour, that’s when it becomes annoying, but I’ll still play that game. Same with stax for me.
Yes
Personally, I agree - it’s game legal. Plan around it just as you would Cyclonic Riff, Teferri’s, etc.
Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it is healthy for the format nor balanced.
Well it depends. Mass land destruction is forbidden in our playgroup because we don't have the counter measures in our decks becase we don't shit money.
Hey @lordmalkom! I just want to suggest to your group that proxies are a healthy way for players to explore other archetypes without breaking the bank. I know that times can be rough but that shouldn’t stop your playgroup from having fun.
Coming from a player that has created five groups in three different countries. Forbidding a play-style just because you don’t have responses to a play makes for a poor magic experience.
Your decks should be tested to the best of their abilities. And the brewers as well! If the only thing you face are token heavy, equipment themed decks…what are you really gaining? (Unless that is your preferred method of play)
I say all of this to welcome your group to various play styles and to broaden your horizons to other forms of play. 🤙🏽
Idk id rather play 4 games in 4 hours than 1 4 hour long game
do all your decks get to do their thing in 1 hour?
@@edhdeckbuilding yeah, only game i remember that was 3 hours long was a game that 3 of us were playing dimir faeries
The “rules committee” is not balanced... In my playgroup we have our own better rules and ban list. So we play decks that have balance and its fine 💪🏻👍🏻👍🏻💯✌🏻
...for your playgroup, great! For the variety of anonymous players, it is a rule 0 topic.
I always play with some form of targeted land removal as it generally tends to be much more impactful and is not going to be a card sitting in my hand the whole game waiting for the “perfect” time to play, but I don’t really care if someone wants to play with mass land destruction.
My biggest issue with playing commander is people just dragging the game out unnecessarily by making SUBOPTIMAL plays that do not forward the game in a meaningful way…you are not hurting anyone’s feelings by ending the game. I play to have fun but also to win (or lose) if that’s the way the cards play out that game.
I cast heroic intervention in response to my obliterate all the time. Instant win most games.
It's not. If you are willing to play 1v3 every game.