People create media by taking popular archetypes for granted and not understanding what made them great in the first place ? Consider me *S H O C K E D*
And now you let me wondering if an echi harem series could work with the male "protagonist" not showing up. Like for example if the series took place after said harem has already formed and the plot is that the girls have to rescue him because he was kidnaped or something and the whole series is about them idealising the guy to the point that their perception of him and how he really is end up being two completelly divorced characterizations. It could easily be played for laughs and pushed to its logical extreme, like the harem gaining more members along the way that never actually met the guy and just know him by the increasingly delusional descriptions of him from the original members of the group. I... I think I just got an idea for a comedic RPG.
The harem growing even though they never met the guy and only heard about him sounds like: the group set out to rescue the beautiful, kind princess and meeting other dudes who are in it for their own gain (woman, adventure, money, ...) if you just reverse the gender roles again. Might be an interesting idea for a harem rom-com though.
I think the problem also lies in writers nowadays being otaku that grew up watching harem anime and are just writing self satisfying fantasy. That's pretty much all isekai anime is.
Classic Tsundere shows that. MC changes to become a better person, and so does the Tsundere character. This is even noticeable in modern animes, like Steins;Gate or Oregairu, where both parties evolve and become better people. And how this examples i´m giving you, is how human relationships work.
So that's why I've been slowly hating this type of character more often. Less complexity=less caring. Seem's simple enough...to exploit by making it more about hollow romantic leads.
It's why I've grown increasingly disenfranchised with anime in general. There will always be gems every cour and it's not always the case. But anime has increasingly pandered to pathetic weebs who would rather have validation than be challenged. As Digi pointed out, older protagonist + tsundere dynamics involved the tsundere calling out the protagonist on their BS. Now it's the protagonist who's already doing it right (Appeals to weebs projecting onto said protagonist), fixing the tsundere and charming the women.
+schewegburt Maybe thats why these harem male characters are so flat and boring to watch these days. Like Digibro said, its because they aren't being challenged by the tsundere anymore and thus does not support his character growth. The protagonist instead does not feel the need to change for the girl, he just accepts her attitude as who she is and thus she ends up changing for the guy who lacks a real personality due to not having to do anything for the girl to open up to him. Then there is the other side to it where if the girl is the one who should change for the guy, it never happens due to the guy challenging her. He doesn't call her out, they are just told they are supposed to be married. There is just nothing relatable to the lack of realistic logic in these relationships because of the dating sim writing formula.
+Lloyd Irving The main idea of a harem protagonist is that he is a vessel for the viewer to see themselves in. This is why 99% of them are about as interesting as a rock. This has become especially prevalent in the last 10 years where these kinds of anime have a huge following. At this point, they don't even need to try anymore. They could literally just make a basic harem template, copy it and make shit loads of money.
This is probably a general issue with tropefication. Working elements of a story will be pulled out and slotted into contexts where they do not really work because it's a thing that people recognise.
This. Even 'deconstruction' often simply boils down to 'my expectations were subverted!'. It seems like much of storytelling has abandoned structural integrity and become entangled in its most recognizable cliche´s because of the attention economy of our modern media landscape. The idea that a book should hook you on the first page, a movie in the first couple minutes actually has serious reprecussions for structure. You *have* to - at least initially - write your characters in a way that audiences will be able to slot into preexisting boxes for them to even give your story a chance. You *have* to use tropes as shortcuts to concepts that readers are already familiar with to make that kind of hook work, - and then you are forced to maintain those qualities throughout the rest of the story to keep it consistent with what you have established.
@@Sphnxfr What really pisses me off is how so many stories are just predictable shlock that work like X because "That's how you make a story good and popular, right?" And then some random thing will be done wrong because "That's how you subvert expectations and make the best story ever, right?". It's lazy, but its writers and target audience think it's perfect.
Phreaker1997 I think it's possible you seriously overestimate the effect TV Tropes has on the quality of the mass media it documents. This shit always happened to all tropes, it's just now we have the vocabulary to recognize it.
"A fetishistic representation of an aesthetic crafted with no thematic purpose" applies to things in anime far beyond the scope of archetypal tsunderes. I would even say that describes the majority of the industry at this point.
This video goes great with The Death of the Tsundere by Lextorias, a more recent take on this subject that goes into the 'databaseification' and 'digital thinking' of modern media, how we consume things now, basically exactly what you're saying.
So Tsundere's have become a Lv 3 cliché? People use them in stories just because they've seen them in other anime, without knowing why they're supposed to be there, or how/why the cliché appeared in the 1st place?
I think it's a case of cross-pollination and diminishing returns, which I think Digi sort of alluded to. Tsundere started off in anime, they became a cliche that got transplanted into visual novels, anime adapted those visual novels, people watched those adaptations which inspired them to write light novels, which in turn got adapted until the concept of tsundere kept getting diluted
To be honest if you take a closer look at archetypes in general especially ancient ones you quickly realize that most people who use them in stories do so unconsciously. But that's what seperates primal and general archetypes from newer (and more specific) ones for me.
It's the same case with Isekai stories using video game stats in a fantasy world. Stats were just an abstraction for D&D games as a rough simulation, not something characters in a fantasy story should be pulling out.
In this past few years, the only Tsundere I considered good, is Tohsaka Rin. Not only she's not abusive. She's also tried to change Shirou so that he could be happy while staying true to his ideal.
Also in Tohsaka Rin works very well becouse: - her acting is justified by her inner conflict between her feelings towards other people and selfish magus upbringing - this acting does exist also outside of romantic context (so she would deny being genuine friends with anyone) - this acting is obviously just acting and it's clear she's doing this just for herself, like everybody who knows her a bit can see through it (outside maybe Sakura, but Sakura has good reason to) - she can do stuff as inviting people on dates and shows other signs of affection, she just usually claim that she's doing that only for her own interests or that isn't too deep, becouse "I'm a magus"
I feel like Nichijou had a parody of this with Sasahara and Misato. Misato's tsundere levels are so insanely over-the-top, it feels like a big "f- you" to all those one-dimensional tsundere characters popping up everywhere. also i never really liked the tsundere trope to begin with but that's just a me thing
I dislike it as well. Seems one sided too, as the Tsundere in the original sense never really addresses her own latent issues, as she's used more to make the male character grow and change, and he has no effect on her, outside of a cartoonish level of personality 180 when they finally get together.
@@SakuraAvalon The main reason why I don't usually like tsundere, apart from its sheer detachment from reality, is because it kinda perpetuates the idea that "if a girl says no she actually means yes!!!!" which is... pretty gross
Eh, the original Tsundere wasn't like that. From what I've seen, the girl said no and the guy said no, but events sticking them together caused them to get closer, but there's still this giant denial of the feelings from both sides. However, I have not kept up with the modern Tsundere.
To me it has always seemed like the male version of the fantasy of fixing someone. Outside of anime it’s usually associated with girls choose choosing arrogant, proud, terrible boyfriends whom they believe they can fix through the power of love. It’s unhealthy either way in my opinion.
I dated someone and convinced myself I could "fix her". The result being a one sided relationship with a emotional unstable person. Some people don't want to be fixed, they cling to and identify with there problems because it helps them not feel guilty about how they treat people.
@@delete4198 Happens more then you think. A lot of girls have a beauty and the beast fantasy. They want to tame some wild bad boy. I do agree though, a lot of guys have 0 standards and it's disgusting.
Cherrie Getison It’s disappointing that that’s the route anime has taken, since while nobody wanted to be Shinji, the audience could understand and identify with at least some of the characters because they were just that deep. I even had a friend that fixed her relationship because seeing Shinji, a teen with the weight of the world forced onto his shoulders without proper preparation or appreciation, have his angsty dissociation explored allowed her to better understand both the callousness and the hypocrisy inherent to saying things like “Be a man! Suck it up! Do your job!” While expecting support, love, compassion, and respect in return. There was something in NGE for everyone because the characters were justifiable and humanized even if you hated them. Nowadays romcom LN adaptation trash just caters to the lowest common denominator by going so far in the opposite direction that anyone can project themselves onto the bland MC. It’s a damned shame.
I originally thought it was merely just further infantilizing the female character. Unable to maturely process their sexual attraction to the male character, they instead lash out with more familiar hostility.
So in essence: Tsundere back then: "I am this way because it's apart of my back story and helps develop my relationship with the protagonist" Tsundere now: "I am this way because writers block, personality archetype, it's currently trendy and funny"
I recently realized the whole "push pull" relationship with a guy and a tsundere from reading Muv Luv. It was really interesting seeing how both characters growing together as people can make for a great romance. Now I need to go back and rewatch shows with good tsundere's more attentively.
I think a story that captures this characterization well and demonstrates growth in both characters is Fate/Stay Night - Unlimited Blade Works. Rin and Shiro start off as certain characters (Rin portraying something like a tsundere) but both going through changes, not just Rin. There's also a good explanation as to why she is the way she is at the beginning of the story. Shiro evolves a good deal as well and that makes him more mature.
Well in Steins;Gate both Kurisu and Okabe are tsundere, not being honest and hiding it through different means. As for Tohsaka unfortunately the anime didn't really do justice to her, they pushed a bit too hard on the tsundere cliche. Another good tsundere would be Christianne from Majikoi, but she act like that mainly because she disapprove of Yamato's way of doing things.
GetMekdBro “Shows with good tsunderes” are few and far in between. Because they either serve the purpose of playing into a power fantasy in which the unrealistically perfect but super bland MC gets the chick who’s l my rejecting him because she secretly likes him, or the violence is played for laughs because of the cultural irony inherent to the ‘silly’ idea that a woman could both accomplish and get away with abusing a male. Almost never is a tsundere a deep relatable character.
At least Asuka had a reason to be like that, what with her being a total mental case from trauma endured in her childhood and the goddamn war she was fighting. Also Shinji just wouldn't get in the damn robot.
One of the best insights into the former version of The Tsundere is Hitomi from Visions of Escaflowne. Van comes off as a rude jerkoff, while Allen contrasts himself as the diligent knight. Hitomi bickers with Van while fawning over Allen. But it's only when Hitomi sees Van's sincerity in growing as a person and Allen's disregard for his own child that the back and forth between Hitomi and Van stops, and they come to truly love one another.
Interesting how the male dichotomy of the Tsundere character development has been slowly written off in favor of the girl flip-flopping into acquiescence. It's as if the writer's don't understand relationships or women in general, and are accepting the guy just being there as "enough." A relationship is a two-way street, with two people changing and adjusting as a matter of survivability and mutual gain. The male character might as well be a mannequin for all he's worth in these more recent shows.
Except most clasical stundere's mentioned didn't change their personality much, if at all. The relationship of Okabe and Makise from stein;s gate is a far more believable love story involving tsundere characters than that of the familiar of zero or ranma 1/2.
@@Dragonoid269 To be fair, Ranma 1/2, even with all of its success, was rushed causing lots of plot holes. Plus, the story was more aimed at boys, so the action and comedy were what Rumiko was focusing on.
I think Love Live (yes, the idol show) had a neat twist on the 'self-betterment' tsundere. Maki goes through the typical arc of opening herself up to other people, but since there aren't any major male characters in the show, that development instead comes from exploring her flaws with the help of other characters, and her taking active steps to change herself. There's none of that fetishistic 'I wanna save this girl' pandering - it's just a nice coming-of-age tale. So the nu-Tsundere archetype _does_ have the potential to tell interesting character stories - it's just up to the writers to view these characters as characters and not just trophies for the MCs.
That's my primary reason why I consider Love Live as my favorite anime of all time, because of the change of pace from the Shōnen and Harem anime that became mainstream over the years. Especially in regards to Maki, who people would assume I'd hate, given my dislike towards Tsundere characters, but actually grew on me and isn't just a typical Tsundere. What makes Maki work (and not somebody like Misty from Pokémon or Louise from Familiar of Zero, for example) is that she isn't a love interest to a male lead and she isn't overly aggressive or hyperactively violent. If anything, Maki is perhaps my favorite out of the whole Tsundere trope.
+Adrian Harper "What makes Maki work (and not somebody like Misty from Pokémon or Louise from Familiar of Zero, for example) is that she isn't a love interest to a male lead and she isn't overly aggressive or hyperactively violent." Yup! I'd also add that the show gives actual psychological reasons for her tsundere behaviour, and that her arc of opening up to people ties in neatly with the show's themes of bonds and communication. She's just an exceptionally well-constructed character (who unfortunately still gets flak for being 'just another tsundere').
I for one will say I didn't understand the Tsundere archetype to the level that you just described it and I'm actually surprised by the depth that can be given to it. You've really opened my eyes to that, and for that I'm subbing.
tfw you don't even realize you've written a tsundere into your story until you notice that all the motivations and purposes the character stands for all fit the tsundere archetype perfectly. thanks digibro! i'd like to see analyses of the other "dere dere" archetypes as well. that'd be awesome!
Tsunderes in theroy should work but you hit the nail on the head, they are made just to be fetishised and nothing more. Id like to see an anime centered around a girl who suffers due to her pride and ends up snapping because of her tsundere qualities. Give it some depth and weight.
While not in the same circumstances as Asuka, Taiga from Toradora doesn't have tsundere qualities by design, but are brought forward because of family issues and insecurity.
Tsundere acts as an ego check to protagonist, making them realize what they need to change about themselves to be a better person and or connect to that girl. Gotta remember that
I'm sorry but I thought they just did the stupid shit they do because they thought that assaulting the protagonist will allow the feelings they have for them to go away. I didn't know that this was the reason for them, maybe if I tell myself this when watching anime I will be able to tolerate them
Just cause this guy said it doesn't make it true. They and anyone else can do that. Don't apply his idea as a gospel. I found this video to be confused. It conflates too many things.
And this is exactly why Iris didn't work. Ash wasn't the rookie anymore, and Iris's criticism was just plain old hypocrisy as she was avictim too all the same mistake.
I'm probably in the minority, but I personally can't stand Tsundere character types. While there are a few exceptions that I've tolerated (Stella Vermillion and Rin Tohsaka, for instance), a large majority have annoyed me beyond belief. And to be honest, I have a lot of examples as to why I dislike the trope; Misty from Pokémon, Asuka from Evangelion, Naru from Love Hina, Louise from The Familiar of Zero, Chitoge from Nisekoi, Julis from The Asterisk War, Taiga from Toradora, Sakura from Naruto, most of the harem from Infinite Stratos, the list goes on. Perhaps what gets to me is how people try to justify them is because of the male protagonist for being dense, single-minded, or something to that affect. I dunno, I just don't like overly aggressive girls who get violent towards the male lead for no reason other than projecting the writer's masochism or following trends.
Stella and Rin is okay but you dislike Asuka? lol. I don't mind Tsundere when it's does well but most modern anime, anime made in the last 8-10 years specifically, just throws them in with little to no effort to actually make them interesting characters outside of the typical tropes.
Its kinda what made steins gates romance work for me, it was a both ways path both Kurisu and Okabe learn from the other and allowed themselves to slowly be more open and sincere with the other
I know this is almost two years 'late', but I came across an old comment inquiring about Kuudere's, and I wanted to repost some insight I have when it comes to them: I think they started out as a way to fulfill the appealing fantasy of warming a shy, overlooked girl's frosty (non-violent) heart. I mean, in the beginning they're aloof either to being sad or detached from the world (due to some past experience or current circumstance), then the MC comes along and shows her the world isn't cold or gray (and they don't have to be either). In addition to this, it's similar to a guy (in school or at work) approaching an unpopular girl, seeing something in her no one else does, or, (for the more cynical crowd) feeling he might have a better chance with her than with the more popular and beautiful girls. Either way, it's got the spirit of a knight rescuing a princess (but in a modern setting where no one but they and the viewer see). However, with the shallow way Tsundere's have gone, I think Kuudere have followed suit (from a character dynamic perspective) as a way to try and counter-act them. One is loud, violent, and dismissive? The other is calm, sweet, and possessive. The 'balance' comes in by way of assertiveness (the Tsundere is, while the Kuudere is not), thus the story a love triangle. But with this, they're kind of locked into their dead-pan persona (since that's what they're marketed with the story as, and they're easy to write), whereas in the past they were supposed to leave it behind. But its not entirely 'their' fault. It's writers and viewers 'fault'. It's writer's fault for not giving them development (instead just seeing a lot of 'Kuudere' type characters in other stories and inserting one into their own story). And viewers' for latching onto them, likely wanting a fantasy where a girl never yells or gets mad (yet not going full on robot-girl or alien route) like Tsundere's do and females in their life perhaps did. That's not to say those decisions/choices are bad, just that they're imitations of something that had reasons for existing before.
I actually like(d) the tsundere: In a world where 'perfect' female romantic interests fell into this archetype of unbound kindness and acceptance (and passivity, that for some reason was considered 'feminity'), the tsundere was the only one girl who told the protagonist "no, fuck you, you are not going to get away with this shit". (Yes, please.) I adhere to everything said in the video. I agree: the authors today don't seem to get tsunderes (Akane Tendo would be a good example of proper tsundere), they make them unbearable and don't understand even their protagonists. (Plus, responding to what someone else said in the comments: today's tsundere authors deserve to burn in their own personal "no is yes" pit of hell.) Problematic thing with the tsundere? Normalized female-to-male violence, it being seen as comedic. TL;DR > Video=Best. Description. of this problem. EVER.
This is my newest fav Digi vid. Soooooo much of this is stuff that's been stewing in my head for years; its super satisfying to hear it all laid out in such a logical way with no holds barred. 10/10, will watch again and again.
Something that i love about louise of zero no tsukaima is than the tsundere actitude that she has is in response of her royal position and not being capable of be a good magician, making her to take an actitude to protect her pride and royal power she believes she deserves, not accepting her weakness and trying to overcome that disability
I think in Asuka's case, chasing over Kaji wasn't because she actually wanted a mature man, she just wanted to be with one to show that she herself was mature. But that's not how maturity works and Kaji rejected her outright for it. She then accidentally and rightfully fell for Shinji, a scared child with abandonment issues, someone in many ways similar to her. And when Shinji was on his way of becoming stronger and more mature, instead of being happy, she started experiencing fear, jealousy and frustration.
I honestly hate most Tsunderes, especially the ones in harem mangas that are also the first girl and the only one the main character gets in a relationship with in the end, which annoys me even more.
I love when tropes are discussed like this. Thanks for the historical context too. A coverage of Kudere would be nice. Never actually understood that trope.
With the timing of “and that shit sucks” to Ikki from Chivalry speaking, and “also, support me on Patreon” to Stella talking, I now have a headcannon that Stella was giving Ikki a crash course in the de-evolution of Tsunderes, and Ikki only finally got the point when she threw water bottles at him and finished hammering in how fetishistic it all is.
Despite only being made in the late 2000s, Louise embodies everything that's wrong with the tsundere. Nowadays, we're a lot more aware of female abusers. Zero no Tsukaima wouldn't fly today.
This, _this_ here is why I'm frustrated when I see some people complain or hate on older tsunderes with the context of the modern tsundere. I've never been able to quite put into words or figure out just why it's bothered me until I saw this video.
So in other words, Tsundere is a wish fulfillment fantasy of a girl still showing interest in an otherwise inadequate man and becoming a catalyst of his personal growth instead of ignoring his existence. I think I see the appeal now.
Easily one of your best videos in a while. As probably the most knowledgeable person on TH-cam about anime and anime history, it only makes sense that your best work comes from the perspective only you can bring.
im so glad youve kept up these older videos, theyre very nostalgic for a rewatch and I always enjoy seeing them. (also ive been watching you since your MLP days and im glad youre still making videos !!!)
7:40 I've been noticing this and haven't said anything, and maybe this is Davoo's fault, or they weren't actually talking about the series and just book covers, but it seems like Digi will do absolutely anything and take any opportunity to paint Oregairu in a bad light. Hachiman is very much a focus on the series, and frankly, you'd be hard pressed to find ANY protagonist with more relative screen time than him.
Tbh, Hachiman is one of the few modern MC that I actually like and can relate, since well...he feels like an actual human character. He isn´t like the usual paper-flat MC that most series get, but it´s one portrayed REALLY well, and it´s accurate to reality.
To be fair to the trope, a woman can want a man to change in a way that is not necessarily wrong but is also not something nessecary or that the guy would want, in these situations one might expect the relationship to fail as it is likely based on a false image of what a relationship should be, however it is possible that the relationship is actually built on something firmer than the fallacy and that both parties need only grow emotionally when it comes to each other rather than a general character flaw.
I'd love to see an anime where the male lead reacts to the Tsundere slap by punching her in the face. If you are willing to hit someone, be prepared for retaliation.
I keep coming back to this video every so often because it's such a good breakdown of things. Almost to the point that I'd consider it a must-watch for anime fans.
Twin tail tsunderes became my thing early on I do like someone like the girl from the fruit of grisaia Where her trying to be tsundere us part of her quirkiness simply because she usually forgets that shes supposed to act like one and remembers in the funniest situations also the dmfact that ryuji always makes her embarrassed
The tsundere trope is weird because women dont actually criticize men consciously in the way tsundere characters do. I think tsundere characters are a personification of how men criticize themselves in order to be desirable to a woman
I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with using a Tsundere character in any particular way, as long as...: 1. ...the writer understands that an extreme personality trait like this is a character flaw that, ideally, the character would overcome and grow out of by the end of the story through the hard work, challenge, sacrifice, and pain of character development... 2 ...the writer understands who the protagonist of the story is - who is taking the active role in changing either themselves, their surroundings and situation, or other people over the course of the story,for better or worse.... 3 ...the writer understands what sort of story he/she is telling, the tone and "tropes" used to tell a traditional form of the story, and how and when and why to change or break the traditional rules of this sort of story 4 ..the writer understands when it's useful to "fix" a flawed character like the Tsundere, and when it's useful to keep her development arrested in that flawed state (typically for comedic or tragic effect!) I think any supposed de-evolution of the Tsundere can probably be blamed fairly on one of two things: either the writer doesn't understand one or more of those fundamentals of storytelling, or the audience is missing the point. "I Hate Tsunderes!", without qualification, is probably a sign that you're listening to someone who is missing the point, because they just "don't get it", or haven't seen enough variety in the way this sort of character is used to get the right context, etc. Of course, the fetishists probably miss the point, too: they probably don't see the Tsundere trait as a character flaw, and if the fetishist is writing the story without realizing that this is a character flaw, the story is probably not going to go over well very far outside the community of people who enjoy fantasizing about being verbally, emotionally, and physically misused by perpetually angry anime girls! (You know who you are....)
I think it's just the normal course of tropes in general. Like the examples Egoraptor gave for the evolution of tropes in Zelda games, people will eventually care more about the "thing" than the actual reasons behind the "thing" being there. It's only natural that we become fascinated by the end product of the tsundere as an attractive trait, without actually reflecting on what made the tsundere attractive in the first place, and look to replicate it. In the end, the tsundere trope nowadays function just because of the collective otaku experience of having witnessed actual tsunderes done well in the past. I'm guessing that's why someone seeing tsundere characters nowadays, without having seen the backlog of old anime establishing the trope, would find them immediately obnoxious, or out of nowhere (there is an example in a lot of comments here). It's up to us to start identifying the shortcuts the authors are taking, wanting to have the payoff (of a tsundere) without the actual effort (of building a logical context and giving it a purpose). The good thing is that it's also only natural that people will start to get bored of the trope eventually, so it will have to reinvent itself to survive. PD: Keitaro actually changes a lot by the end of Love Hina for the sake of his relationship with Naru, which then puts all the weight in Naru to change because her tsundere attitude starts getting in the way in a really extreme manner, it's a really fun ending. I blame this misconception of the character to the fact the the final OVA's weren't as popular and came like two years after the original adaptation... long live Love Hina.
Also people are Tsundere. In normal life people hide their true feelings because of the potential for rejection. When a Tsundere character wants someone to change they aren't just Tsundere, but are also something else like a friend who wants to help someone else grow. Also creating a change in a person is sometimes an appeal to righteousness like "If only he could see how right, and great I am" which still leads back to potential for rejection. So I don't think Tsundere has "de-evolved", but characters in general have become different, de-evolved, or evolved as the case may be.
I mean, to my mind, the emphasis of the Tsundere is a lack of communication. Tsunderes act the way they do because they're not willing to open up to people. Something has happened to them that makes it difficult for them to rely on others, or trust anyone. Their arc, then, is learning to have that trust and to allow themselves to be vulnerable. By contrast, the arc of the male lead is going to be becoming the kind of person who's worth opening up to. ...Wait, that actually *is* what you said, isn't it.
This is an excellent analysis. I've said for a while that it's likely that this archetype has been corrupted over the years. In Toradora, both Ryuji and Taiga grew as people as their feelings grew. On the other hand, a lot of what are now considered typical tsundere characters are the ones who change because they realize that their romantic interest is already what they need and their apprehension is the problem with their happiness.
I think in more recent years, it's more become more about "Breaking the wall" of a "mean girl". Anyone can seem cold and distant at first but once you begin to understand one another that wall that was there is gone. I agree that it's not as good as it was before but society has moved towards "love yourself" so, maybe the tsundere has just been altered to meet today's standards?
Am I the only person that hates tsunderes? I mean seriously, I have heard that shows like Tora Dora were great, but the first time I saw that girl slapping the crap out of the dude, I was like, "Nope, I'm out." I just have a very difficult time dealing with any people and/or characters that feel that they can act that way, and that any person is supposed to just accept or deal with that until they decide it's "safe" for them to act like a normal human being. I had the exact same issue when I started watching Bakemonogatari. I mean a dude saves a girl's life and then in their next encounter, she staples his cheek, and then instantly he wants to "help" her?! What happened to the scene where he beat her into the pavement first? I mean I know that sounds extreme, but come on man, what is that? The only thing that kept me watching that show is the simple fact that Senjogahara is flat blazing, and I had to keep watching her, and I hated myself for doing so. But the show is pretty good once you get into it, so it's okay. Anyhow, does anyone else feel me?
I know what you mean i really hated Toradora because of that abusive loli. She ruins the anime with her childish attitude, she was useless from beginning till the end and never grew as a character. Also the last 5 episodes were very bad imo. I dont know how people liked this when there are romance anime done much better. A good example “ano natsu de matteru” and “tsuki ga kirei”.
Jay Anderson A lot of comments about people that hate tsunderes and on anime communities threads about how “annoying” tsunderes are and you are asking if you are the only one that hates them.
Ano Natsu much better romance than Toradora? Nice joke. More like you only hate Tsundere and not the actual show or characters and spit shit because of your liking.
X Ramon Yea dude sure the tsundere is the only bad thing about this shit show. Like the idiot MC suddenly changing his mind about the girl he loves without a single hint as to why he makes that choice. She loving him was understandable and pretty obvious but him loving her is beyond stupid and makes no sense. Even by spending the most time together, if the other person treats you like trash even if you do all the housework, sorry but only a masochist would like such a person. And they suddenly want to marry? lol The other characters? They were just there to make the main couple get together at the end. Glasses dude had a mini arc about the president and thats basically it. Minori had a very likable character but she also had no reason to reject him. Because sure better hurt youself when you love someone for so long, so a girl with mental and family issues who does not bother fixing them until the end can take him. Talking about how stupid the characters act. Ami was probably the best character and the only one with an IQ over zero who knew what was going on near the end by throwing some hints here and there. She was the most developed character who actually had a good chemistry with the MC but sadly her lack of screentime and the fact that she never tried was very frustrating, though i understand her situation. This dude literally confessed to the girl he loved and 2 episodes later he suddenly loves the abusive loli. Then she just disappears without telling him anything and the last scene is her literally hitting him again showing how much she has grown as a character xD What a great romance plot dude. I have seen alot of anime where my favourite doesn’t win but you know what atleast they have good writing and a good cast. By the way ano natsu was only 12 episodes and it still does everything better with its characters and their development.
4:55 KEKLMAO yeah, Shinji is completely deaf, in a way. He can read the expressions of others, but as to what they really mean, how they are on the inside and what they really want... He can barely figure out himself, how can he begin to with others?
I really love your videos focusing on one major aspect of across multiple shows than on multiple aspect for only one show. They come across much more uncontroversial and solid.
Tsundere are so overwhelming in anime that I get annoyed by them almost immediately when they pop up. It takes a lot for me to like Tsundere character nowadays.
there is so many trashy this days, no wonder I dislike them, they were the first I saw of Tsun how about call them just Bitchdere?`because seems like only the past got good tsunderes, or most of them?
To be honest, it SHOULD take a lot for you to like a person who displays serious bitch tendencies. Either the protagonist grows up and stops being a moron (aka has a character arc) and the tsundere stops delivering her legitimate but scathing/bitchy criticism, or the tsundere herself has the character arc and moves past the emotional/mental hangups that cause her to react like a bitch. Otherwise the character is just a bitch and shouldn't be likeable.
@@overkill1340 Even in the classic sense, it's too one sided. BOTH of them should grow up. Like, one of the things that bothered me about Ranma 1/2 was that the bulk of the blame fell on Ranma even though Akane had at least 50% of the blame (and let's not even touch on how the fiancee situation came through because Genma engaged his son to so many women). Don't get me wrong, Ranma has his faults an dis rightly called out for some, but AKANE is never called out for her bullshit like he is, and if anyone does they are framed as being unreasonable at best. (And this is without even touching on the fact that anyone who puts up with Akane on a romantic level while she still has her issues AND doesn't acknowledge that she is in the wrong has got to be nothing less than a saint, which is not fair on whoever her partner is. Ranma can at least accept that he is being criticized without turning into a violent maniac) Like, yes, all of the girls in Ranma 1/2 need to deal with their issues, but the whole point is that no one is perfect and unbiased, which is where the comedy gold comes from. Granted, the end result is that a lot of people have their favorite pairings and some have very valid reasons for why Ranma would give up on the concept of marrying Akane and find a way out of the engagement. This is kind of why I am more interested in male Tsundere, because their whole arc is about growing and dealing with their issues that causes them to be temperamental jerks at times, not because of romance, but because their attitude is getting in the way of their goals or really is causing them problems. If a female Tsundere does this, they would be more interesting.
I think Ataru and Ranma are the Harem protagonists that got it right. They got crap from the girls but they could also give crap as well, bantering and bickering without it feeling too one-sided. Though Ranma had the benefit of being tough enough to roll with the punches...
imo Takahashi does a good job of creating these bickering couples that genuinely seem to be what their partner needs. Both characters are usually flawed and need to grow into a relationship. Some people despise the "takahashi couple" style though because there is always so many misunderstandings. My favourite is from Maison Ikkoku.
6:40 The best type of character arc for these types of characters would be if both of them had to change. I mean, that's kind of what real life relationships can be, both people in the relationship realizing their faults and that they have to improve themselves in order to be there for the person they love. Unfortunately, anime usually seems disinterested in presenting romantic relationships as two way, mutual partnerships, even though that's exactly what they are.
Tsundere creates conflict. You can get more out of a story from conflict than from two characters who just love each other without any reason not to already express their feelings. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it's more difficult to write a compelling story around. It's much like take any generic romance and insert incest. Now there is a conflict as to why the characters aren't expressing their feelings, or coming to terms with their feelings. In the case of Tsundere being ego checks I think that is more a minority case. Asuka and Shinji's relationship was more showing two damaged children with parental issues. Asuka wanted approval from her father and sought a father figure in Kaji, and was upset that she had feelings for Shinji who remained distant towards her. Shinji wanted a mother figure which he saw much of in Rei for obvious reasons. Pretty much Anno took a psyche 101 class and ran with it. Either way tsundere is often just a conflict device, and when it came about somewhat of a fetish for the Japanese. Tsundere were more of a western thing. Most early characters with this trait were things like exchange students or half Japanese. Their behavior is often indicative of someone who really isn't fully aware of or ignores Japanese custom. Also it fits well for love triangles, as there is someone who can be vocally or physically harmful towards the MC if they are involving themselves with other women. This leads to the MC not wanting to displease the Tsundere, even if they have more overt feelings for another character. Today the tsundere is less effective than it had been in years past. This is more due to the self insert MC becoming so big. A character that is so bland, aloof, indecisive and that characters just like because he's a nice guy, that readers can just insert themselves onto. This is opposed to something like School Rumble where Harima was a defined character with his own personality. Haganai on the other hand even makes fun of how bland the MC is. So how well a tsundere is also depends on how well they can play off of the MC, rather than the MC just being a device for their affection.
In general I agree with your assessment, but I will say that Chivalry of a Failed Knight is still my second favorite romance in anime, so I don’t think the trend is all bad and in fact according to Quora this new Tsundere is what is making it popular in the first place.
Yukinoshita along with Yui helped A LOT on the development and growth of Hachiman´s character; which I would say, is the main selling point of the novels (Oregairu, SNAFU, whatever suits your boat)
THANK YOU! This is something I've been thinking about for years but just never had the opportunity or time to talk about in any creative way. Now you've done it, so thanks.
I like the type of tsundere who A: doesn’t harm anyone B: doesnt have a “crush” on anyone (I’ll explain) C: just doesn’t like talking about their feelings and become a little angry if anyone crosses their boundaries So what I mean is, a less intense person who just doesn’t like talking about their feelings. So I guess you would just call that a Tsun- Person? Not relating to love, but relating to their personality.
LMAO at Digibro consistent prodding at Oregairu when Hachiman is the entire selling point of the series. Just because he doesn't physically take up space on the cover art, does not mean he lacks importance. Without him the series would not have fans, that's factual.
7:41 "we've watched anime romcoms shift focus away from the male protagonist" and then there is a picture of Oregairu. I'm not sure if this is Digi's doing or if Davoo is just trying to be a smart asshole, but either way, it's not accurate in the slightest.
I know, that was my point, I'm just saying what Digi is implying with this editing. His personal vendetta towards a show shouldn't supercede the facts.
Oregairu pretty much focueses on the evolution of Hachiman, and to some point, his friends. We all are totally aware that the main girls evolve by the plot (Yukino and Yui), but the one that made complete jumps in character development is him. Hell, even if the video goes by the promotional image, it still accurately illustrates how Hachiman is at the beginning (since that´s S1 image). Hachiman rejects, despises, and avoids getting involved with others, since he tried to open to other people, but this backfired him, thus becoming a close-minded person. The poster is done well, and the series overall it´s really good, and actually showcases how actual relationships (not only in this scenario, that is a high school) develop and evolve.
I would argue this trope goes back longer then we think. In shakes much ado about nothing and Beatrice had a thing. But the reason why it wasn't working was pride on both there ends. But mostly because Ben was like I'm never getting married which would be fine if he wasn't also dressing up in mascarde so he could secretly dance with Beatrice to find out her feelings for him. I like this trope when used right. When used badly it's annoying.
I feel like with Kurisu, it wasn't nearly as easy to notice, like it was definitely there, but Kurisu wasn't "over the top trying to literally kill main character" like with most. At least it wasn't to the point where I stopped liking the character like I did with most tsunderes, which I enjoyed because with the way that Okabe acted in the show, it almost made Kurisu feel relatable in a sense. Once Okabe showed his soft side, Kurisu didn't immediately begin beating the crap out of him, she actually calmed down a bit as well, which made her feel like a real character, rather than a stereotype or something along the lines of that. I don't know, to me Kurisu is just an example of how the trope can be executed properly without making the character unlikable.
I don't give care why Tsndere characters do what they do I just hate them. There is no reason you can say that will convince me that Tsndere need to exist in anime. I just want for once to see and anime where the Tsndere finally confesses her feelings to the dude and he says hell no. Why would I want to get with someone that physically abused me. And then walks away an leaves her there in tears. Or even better yet I want to see an anime where when the Tsndere gets physically abusive. The MC fights back instead of just letting her get away with abusing him.
Chivalry of the Failed Knight, but the former tsundere gets proposed to. The main girl gets over her 'tsun' phase literally near the beginning of the series and becomes more 'dere' as it continues.
Gross exaggeration. In a comedy, physical comedy is a gag. tsundere are not violent inherently. You've probably got a caricature idea or you've only watched rather bad works. Basically, read good stuff and you'll avoid this.
In complete honesty, I think this is one of the best videos you've ever made. Snappy, concise, insightful, and able to articulate and expand upon in just 8 minutes the thoughts that have been circling my head throughout my entire anime watching experience. Well done.
i utterly hate the Tsundere character, what was once a well thought out character has now been shoe horned into every single fukking anime. i started judging how good an anime by how much they use the trope to propel the story forward. the less the better if it doesn't have one even better. now to be fair an example of a good Tsundere Character would be Casca from Berserk there is an entire backstory as to why she behaves the way she does. shitty Tsundere characters imo are the ones that beat up the prot in the first chapter. sure it was funny the first time i saw it but after literally seeing it being used in almost every anime out there you get tired of it.
Thats something that annpys me most For me as a tsundete myself these tsunderes in todays media just seem so unrealistic and have no valid reason for being that way I for example grew up saying "i hate guys" (im not defending myself i know that was super stupid and sexist) because I always was surronded by girls in my family etc (+ in my elementary class were many mean guys and stuff which made me hate and generalize them even more) And my mum and aunts used to tease me everytime someone kissed in a movie like "oh quick close ur eyes" etc So I just adopted that and grew up "hating" the idea of platonic love And combining these two and the struggles of puberty and discovering sexuality you can probably imagine what happened with my first ever crush Comig over those fears and mind sets is difficult and this struggle is never really portraited in todays animes Things like that make a tsundere thats psychology and media today just portrais them as total bitches of corse everyone will think theyre annoying
I see Mitsuba--- clicky time. Although about Mitsuba you're kinda right about her. She served as a fetishistic tsundere only to never mention her feelings and just disapears into the background after the first arc.
Thanks. That was all super insightful. I just realised that the novel I'm writing has an absolute mega-tsundere as main character. I've never really thought of her this way. I mainly thought of her as 'someone who's pride is preventing her from befriending anyone because she can't stand anyone who doesn't fulfill her ideal of friendship (which is filled with contradictions, skewed values and hypocricy)'. Her 'ideal male figure' is on a poster, and she just projects everything on him, even behaviour and voice. I never thought of her as a tsundere. The book is about her finding real friendship through hardship imposed on her by her inhumanely sadistic classmate. This video helped me name certain things and put them a bit more into perspective. It helps me shape what I want out of the story, and I want to thank you for that. There's a male secondary protagonist who's a nerd who's at the same time insecure about himself (opposite of the main character) selling himself short every time meanwhile he's searching for this same kind of made-up skewed hypocrite relationship that the MC searches for, just romantically (basically a /r9k/ robot). Your mere line about ano natsu de matteru immediately made me rethink his role in the story. I'm gonna make him more sympathetic.
I think Evangelion and Steins;Gate are some of the best representations of the Tsundere dynamic as there are legitimate psychological reasons for the Tsundere to act the way they do and both them and the male love interest have to learn and change. I think placing the burden of the dynamic on only one of them leads to poor storytelling.
I think a really good example of a tsundere character with a purpose is Onodera Ritsu from Sekaiichi Hatsukoi. He never used to be like that, but in highschool, when the one person he loved the most in the world absolutely crushed his heart (it was a misunderstanding though), he began to see the worst outcomes of everything and it really affected his outlook on life. It twisted his personality into the jaded adult he is today and well now he's a huge tsundere (especially when he finds out his past first-love, is not only his boss but his neighbour). When Takano (his boss) declares that he will make him say I love you again, that's when the walls Ritsu thought so hard to build around him, begin to crumble, but because of the fear of a second horrific break up, he continuously tries to repair the cracks. And this is done by pushing Takano away, with every advance he makes on him. (he also gets extremely embarrassed to the point where he needs to get out situations with Takano FAST). He just doesn't seem to see a happy ending with anything. Anyways he's probably one of my favourite Tsunderes. Despite, how annoying he can be at times. I really strongly dislike when a 'Tsundere' is just a 'Tsundere' just because.
Maybe the reason why the focus isn't put on the male lead to change is because those characters are often meant to be generic audience-inserts. Putting the focus on them to change would require establishing them as their own character. #temariwasbesttsunderedonefine
You're pretty close to the truth here. I believe the main reason why modern stories present static main characters is because the author themselves refuse to see and learn from their failings. Most people nowadays have this idea that the don't need to change, they only need to find someone who accepts them. And so when tsundere, which is a character trope used to bring about change happens, they loathe it because they don't want to change. They can't see the need to fix their problems, so the girl who is forcing that change(regardless of whether she gets violent or not, and some tsundere are actually quite fair and don't get violent) is a bitch. "Why should I change when I can simply find someone who accepts me the way I already am?" Ever wonder why most relationships fail nowadays? I can assure you the above statement is one of the main reasons. No one is willing to compromise anymore, it's pretty much "either do things my way, or go away" nowadays.
I agree with you both. From the only modern anime I have seen this kind of happening is in Oregairu. And I say "kind of", because the main girl (can´t recall her name), her character proceeds to devolve from a secure and independent character, to the opposite to some degree. Sure, the MC evolves aswell, since he starts to accept others as they are, and wants to change due to how his personality is destroying what he has been able to create (friendships), so his character starts to evolve. From this video, Oregairu would be a mix from the original and modern Tsundere archetype.
![The Asterisk War Sucks [COMPLETE EDITION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7NGHyQWbK5k/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Asterisk War Sucks [COMPLETE EDITION]](/img/tr.png)
People create media by taking popular archetypes for granted and not understanding what made them great in the first place ?
Consider me *S H O C K E D*
*W E L L I M A G I N E M Y S H O C K*
arenkai Y O U W A S H O C K !
Golly, how *S H O C K I N G!*
I A M S H O C K
*S H O O K E T H*
And now you let me wondering if an echi harem series could work with the male "protagonist" not showing up. Like for example if the series took place after said harem has already formed and the plot is that the girls have to rescue him because he was kidnaped or something and the whole series is about them idealising the guy to the point that their perception of him and how he really is end up being two completelly divorced characterizations. It could easily be played for laughs and pushed to its logical extreme, like the harem gaining more members along the way that never actually met the guy and just know him by the increasingly delusional descriptions of him from the original members of the group.
I... I think I just got an idea for a comedic RPG.
That... honestly is a pretty brilliant premise for an anime
Didn't expect to find a really good pitch half way down a youtube comment section. I'd watch the fuck out of that.
The harem growing even though they never met the guy and only heard about him sounds like: the group set out to rescue the beautiful, kind princess and meeting other dudes who are in it for their own gain (woman, adventure, money, ...) if you just reverse the gender roles again.
Might be an interesting idea for a harem rom-com though.
Jesus Christ, this is brilliant.
Make this please.
The fantasy of being able to conquer a resistant girl because you're just that good.
nhavasis yeh its a fantasy for arrogant losers who think they’re perfect...
trees are green Kinda like how isekais have become
@@treesaregreen you mean like every other anime in existence?
@ trees are green "A fantasy for arrogant losers who think they're perfect." What?
that's art man
I think the problem also lies in writers nowadays being otaku that grew up watching harem anime and are just writing self satisfying fantasy. That's pretty much all isekai anime is.
Almost all anime is self insert in one way or another.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Except for a gem called JoJo
Yea some off them feel like there not even trying.
@@yocarter9221 Actually no, Rohan Kishibe is his self insert.
Kye Dysarthria Kinda explains why most main characters are plain looking.
0:48 That's funny. Everyone knows the childhood friend never wins
Yup
Unless it Western movies or TV shows. They always win in the west
How it should be, most of them annoy the shit out of me.
Say it with me now: "Best girl never wins."
Thats the only solace I have with some shows....
Micahl Taylor and that's how the west was won
Now here is a radical idea...
What if BOTH characters had to change?
Too radical? Yeah, you're probably right.
That's how it should be done, and that's how it was done before and even sometimes now.
Classic Tsundere shows that. MC changes to become a better person, and so does the Tsundere character.
This is even noticeable in modern animes, like Steins;Gate or Oregairu, where both parties evolve and become better people. And how this examples i´m giving you, is how human relationships work.
This is the most realistic human relationship!
So Toradora?
@@Mrnevertalks One of the best.
So that's why I've been slowly hating this type of character more often.
Less complexity=less caring. Seem's simple enough...to exploit by making it more about hollow romantic leads.
the future makes less sense every year
It's why I've grown increasingly disenfranchised with anime in general. There will always be gems every cour and it's not always the case. But anime has increasingly pandered to pathetic weebs who would rather have validation than be challenged.
As Digi pointed out, older protagonist + tsundere dynamics involved the tsundere calling out the protagonist on their BS. Now it's the protagonist who's already doing it right (Appeals to weebs projecting onto said protagonist), fixing the tsundere and charming the women.
Nextgener. I've always hated them. Most of them just come off as self-entitled bitches.
+schewegburt Maybe thats why these harem male characters are so flat and boring to watch these days. Like Digibro said, its because they aren't being challenged by the tsundere anymore and thus does not support his character growth. The protagonist instead does not feel the need to change for the girl, he just accepts her attitude as who she is and thus she ends up changing for the guy who lacks a real personality due to not having to do anything for the girl to open up to him.
Then there is the other side to it where if the girl is the one who should change for the guy, it never happens due to the guy challenging her. He doesn't call her out, they are just told they are supposed to be married. There is just nothing relatable to the lack of realistic logic in these relationships because of the dating sim writing formula.
+Lloyd Irving The main idea of a harem protagonist is that he is a vessel for the viewer to see themselves in. This is why 99% of them are about as interesting as a rock. This has become especially prevalent in the last 10 years where these kinds of anime have a huge following. At this point, they don't even need to try anymore. They could literally just make a basic harem template, copy it and make shit loads of money.
The thing that kills a tsundere character for me is when their primary response to almost every situation is violence.
Exactly !! ,
This has a surprisingly deep consideration of relationships 👍
CraizyShy surprising? Nah, this is why we watch digi
I wonder if it comes mostly from anime knowledge, or if this video would have been possible without his current relationship
Apparently deep?
This is probably a general issue with tropefication. Working elements of a story will be pulled out and slotted into contexts where they do not really work because it's a thing that people recognise.
And then repeat ad nauseam until the original intent has been completely lost and the archetype is just a single predicable trait.
This. Even 'deconstruction' often simply boils down to 'my expectations were subverted!'.
It seems like much of storytelling has abandoned structural integrity and become entangled in its most recognizable cliche´s because of the attention economy of our modern media landscape. The idea that a book should hook you on the first page, a movie in the first couple minutes actually has serious reprecussions for structure. You *have* to - at least initially - write your characters in a way that audiences will be able to slot into preexisting boxes for them to even give your story a chance. You *have* to use tropes as shortcuts to concepts that readers are already familiar with to make that kind of hook work, - and then you are forced to maintain those qualities throughout the rest of the story to keep it consistent with what you have established.
@@Sphnxfr What really pisses me off is how so many stories are just predictable shlock that work like X because "That's how you make a story good and popular, right?" And then some random thing will be done wrong because "That's how you subvert expectations and make the best story ever, right?". It's lazy, but its writers and target audience think it's perfect.
blame tv tropes for that shit
Phreaker1997 I think it's possible you seriously overestimate the effect TV Tropes has on the quality of the mass media it documents. This shit always happened to all tropes, it's just now we have the vocabulary to recognize it.
"A fetishistic representation of an aesthetic crafted with no thematic purpose" applies to things in anime far beyond the scope of archetypal tsunderes. I would even say that describes the majority of the industry at this point.
This video goes great with The Death of the Tsundere by Lextorias, a more recent take on this subject that goes into the 'databaseification' and 'digital thinking' of modern media, how we consume things now, basically exactly what you're saying.
So Tsundere's have become a Lv 3 cliché?
People use them in stories just because they've seen them in other anime, without knowing why they're supposed to be there, or how/why the cliché appeared in the 1st place?
I think it's a case of cross-pollination and diminishing returns, which I think Digi sort of alluded to. Tsundere started off in anime, they became a cliche that got transplanted into visual novels, anime adapted those visual novels, people watched those adaptations which inspired them to write light novels, which in turn got adapted until the concept of tsundere kept getting diluted
playing hard to get is always a thing and slapstick jokes with crude humor well can't got too wrong with the basics of basics
To be honest if you take a closer look at archetypes in general especially ancient ones you quickly realize that most people who use them in stories do so unconsciously. But that's what seperates primal and general archetypes from newer (and more specific) ones for me.
It's the same case with Isekai stories using video game stats in a fantasy world. Stats were just an abstraction for D&D games as a rough simulation, not something characters in a fantasy story should be pulling out.
What makes something a Lv 3 cliche?
Or is the leveling just for dramatic purposes?
Digi has mastered how to end a video
still self-inserts papaapppppppppppaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatreon so no
Ben fan club whats up
More like relearned the art of not making 40+ minute long videos.
Daylon Orr “and that shit sucks also support me on patroon”
alsosupportmeonpatreon
In this past few years, the only Tsundere I considered good, is Tohsaka Rin.
Not only she's not abusive. She's also tried to change Shirou so that he could be happy while staying true to his ideal.
Also in Tohsaka Rin works very well becouse:
- her acting is justified by her inner conflict between her feelings towards other people and selfish magus upbringing
- this acting does exist also outside of romantic context (so she would deny being genuine friends with anyone)
- this acting is obviously just acting and it's clear she's doing this just for herself, like everybody who knows her a bit can see through it (outside maybe Sakura, but Sakura has good reason to)
- she can do stuff as inviting people on dates and shows other signs of affection, she just usually claim that she's doing that only for her own interests or that isn't too deep, becouse "I'm a magus"
I feel like Nichijou had a parody of this with Sasahara and Misato. Misato's tsundere levels are so insanely over-the-top, it feels like a big "f- you" to all those one-dimensional tsundere characters popping up everywhere.
also i never really liked the tsundere trope to begin with but that's just a me thing
I dislike it as well. Seems one sided too, as the Tsundere in the original sense never really addresses her own latent issues, as she's used more to make the male character grow and change, and he has no effect on her, outside of a cartoonish level of personality 180 when they finally get together.
@@SakuraAvalon The main reason why I don't usually like tsundere, apart from its sheer detachment from reality, is because it kinda perpetuates the idea that "if a girl says no she actually means yes!!!!" which is... pretty gross
Eh, the original Tsundere wasn't like that. From what I've seen, the girl said no and the guy said no, but events sticking them together caused them to get closer, but there's still this giant denial of the feelings from both sides.
However, I have not kept up with the modern Tsundere.
Instrumentality1000 Couldn't agree more.
I liked it.... Until everyshow had 2-15 of them and all of them being at most 2 dimensioned.
To me it has always seemed like the male version of the fantasy of fixing someone. Outside of anime it’s usually associated with girls choose choosing arrogant, proud, terrible boyfriends whom they believe they can fix through the power of love. It’s unhealthy either way in my opinion.
I dated someone and convinced myself I could "fix her". The result being a one sided relationship with a emotional unstable person.
Some people don't want to be fixed, they cling to and identify with there problems because it helps them not feel guilty about how they treat people.
with girls choose choosing arrogant, proud, terrible boyfriends? More like the guys choosing whatever the terrible girlfriends in my book
@@delete4198 Happens more then you think. A lot of girls have a beauty and the beast fantasy. They want to tame some wild bad boy.
I do agree though, a lot of guys have 0 standards and it's disgusting.
people are just superficial, and will outlook a henoinous personality if the person is atractve enough, it's basic human nature.
intothekey Wellll, that’s kind of what we were raised with. “Be a pretty princess to get carried away.”
4:24
"her communication falling flat"
lel
HAH!
Yeah,i also realise that😂
flat cheated
Gottem
The fact thats its "Zero" of all charaters is what sold it for me
There's definitely wish fulfillment going on meant for the audience. Nobody wants to be Shinji, but maybe they want to be Asterisk War boy.
I rather be Tenchi Masaki, Ataru Morubooshi or Ranma Saotome than that guy, he's a grade A psycho with so many mental problems.
Well, you're able to remember Shinji and not able to do the same for asterisk war boi
I would like to be a memorable person
I'd rather be Yuuji (Grisaia trilogy) for emotionless reasons, or Kaito (Nidome no Yuusha) for sadistic reasons.
Cherrie Getison
It’s disappointing that that’s the route anime has taken, since while nobody wanted to be Shinji, the audience could understand and identify with at least some of the characters because they were just that deep. I even had a friend that fixed her relationship because seeing Shinji, a teen with the weight of the world forced onto his shoulders without proper preparation or appreciation, have his angsty dissociation explored allowed her to better understand both the callousness and the hypocrisy inherent to saying things like “Be a man! Suck it up! Do your job!” While expecting support, love, compassion, and respect in return.
There was something in NGE for everyone because the characters were justifiable and humanized even if you hated them. Nowadays romcom LN adaptation trash just caters to the lowest common denominator by going so far in the opposite direction that anyone can project themselves onto the bland MC. It’s a damned shame.
Nah, I'd rather be Glenn Radars.
At least he has a sense of humor and several witty lines.
I originally thought it was merely just further infantilizing the female character. Unable to maturely process their sexual attraction to the male character, they instead lash out with more familiar hostility.
i think thats also so
I mean... tsundere characters are usually children.
That's definitely the main part of why the tsundere reaction itself is a cuteness moment.
Maybe these anime girls have a fetish for these harem guys that they are in denial of.
The scary part kicks in when you reverse the roles, then you suddenly have a textbook example of domestic abuse.
So in essence:
Tsundere back then: "I am this way because it's apart of my back story and helps develop my relationship with the protagonist"
Tsundere now: "I am this way because writers block, personality archetype, it's currently trendy and funny"
I recently realized the whole "push pull" relationship with a guy and a tsundere from reading Muv Luv. It was really interesting seeing how both characters growing together as people can make for a great romance. Now I need to go back and rewatch shows with good tsundere's more attentively.
I think a story that captures this characterization well and demonstrates growth in both characters is Fate/Stay Night - Unlimited Blade Works. Rin and Shiro start off as certain characters (Rin portraying something like a tsundere) but both going through changes, not just Rin. There's also a good explanation as to why she is the way she is at the beginning of the story. Shiro evolves a good deal as well and that makes him more mature.
Well in Steins;Gate both Kurisu and Okabe are tsundere, not being honest and hiding it through different means.
As for Tohsaka unfortunately the anime didn't really do justice to her, they pushed a bit too hard on the tsundere cliche.
Another good tsundere would be Christianne from Majikoi, but she act like that mainly because she disapprove of Yamato's way of doing things.
Can confirm, Okab- I mean HOUIN KYOMA!!!!! is in fact a Tsundere.
GetMekdBro
“Shows with good tsunderes” are few and far in between. Because they either serve the purpose of playing into a power fantasy in which the unrealistically perfect but super bland MC gets the chick who’s l my rejecting him because she secretly likes him, or the violence is played for laughs because of the cultural irony inherent to the ‘silly’ idea that a woman could both accomplish and get away with abusing a male. Almost never is a tsundere a deep relatable character.
GetMekdBro hm
At least Asuka had a reason to be like that, what with her being a total mental case from trauma endured in her childhood and the goddamn war she was fighting. Also Shinji just wouldn't get in the damn robot.
One of the best insights into the former version of The Tsundere is Hitomi from Visions of Escaflowne. Van comes off as a rude jerkoff, while Allen contrasts himself as the diligent knight. Hitomi bickers with Van while fawning over Allen. But it's only when Hitomi sees Van's sincerity in growing as a person and Allen's disregard for his own child that the back and forth between Hitomi and Van stops, and they come to truly love one another.
Interesting how the male dichotomy of the Tsundere character development has been slowly written off in favor of the girl flip-flopping into acquiescence. It's as if the writer's don't understand relationships or women in general, and are accepting the guy just being there as "enough."
A relationship is a two-way street, with two people changing and adjusting as a matter of survivability and mutual gain. The male character might as well be a mannequin for all he's worth in these more recent shows.
Except most clasical stundere's mentioned didn't change their personality much, if at all. The relationship of Okabe and Makise from stein;s gate is a far more believable love story involving tsundere characters than that of the familiar of zero or ranma 1/2.
@@Dragonoid269 To be fair, Ranma 1/2, even with all of its success, was rushed causing lots of plot holes. Plus, the story was more aimed at boys, so the action and comedy were what Rumiko was focusing on.
I think Love Live (yes, the idol show) had a neat twist on the 'self-betterment' tsundere. Maki goes through the typical arc of opening herself up to other people, but since there aren't any major male characters in the show, that development instead comes from exploring her flaws with the help of other characters, and her taking active steps to change herself. There's none of that fetishistic 'I wanna save this girl' pandering - it's just a nice coming-of-age tale.
So the nu-Tsundere archetype _does_ have the potential to tell interesting character stories - it's just up to the writers to view these characters as characters and not just trophies for the MCs.
That's my primary reason why I consider Love Live as my favorite anime of all time, because of the change of pace from the Shōnen and Harem anime that became mainstream over the years.
Especially in regards to Maki, who people would assume I'd hate, given my dislike towards Tsundere characters, but actually grew on me and isn't just a typical Tsundere.
What makes Maki work (and not somebody like Misty from Pokémon or Louise from Familiar of Zero, for example) is that she isn't a love interest to a male lead and she isn't overly aggressive or hyperactively violent.
If anything, Maki is perhaps my favorite out of the whole Tsundere trope.
Personally, I think Love Live is a much better show than Pokémon.
Yeah, I'm gonna get a lot of backlash for saying that, but I don't care.
+Adrian Harper "What makes Maki work (and not somebody like Misty from Pokémon or Louise from Familiar of Zero, for example) is that she isn't a love interest to a male lead and she isn't overly aggressive or hyperactively violent."
Yup! I'd also add that the show gives actual psychological reasons for her tsundere behaviour, and that her arc of opening up to people ties in neatly with the show's themes of bonds and communication. She's just an exceptionally well-constructed character (who unfortunately still gets flak for being 'just another tsundere').
99legion
That took a dark turn. lol
@99legion Hello you piece of shit incel.
Should have called this "Tsunderegression."
Thank you for making this video. I never think that there's another way to interpreting tsundere. The older ways needs to resurface
I for one will say I didn't understand the Tsundere archetype to the level that you just described it and I'm actually surprised by the depth that can be given to it. You've really opened my eyes to that, and for that I'm subbing.
Tsudere has become postmodern
What would Baudrillard think of Tsunderes
unless we are talking about monogatari i doubt that.
the fuck does postmodern mean?
Meaning they didn't know what they were doing, or why something worked in the first place, and screwed it up?...
**Nonchalant Whistling*
Suika nine
Go check out regular car reviews' pt cruiser video
tfw you don't even realize you've written a tsundere into your story until you notice that all the motivations and purposes the character stands for all fit the tsundere archetype perfectly. thanks digibro! i'd like to see analyses of the other "dere dere" archetypes as well. that'd be awesome!
Tsunderes in theroy should work but you hit the nail on the head, they are made just to be fetishised and nothing more. Id like to see an anime centered around a girl who suffers due to her pride and ends up snapping because of her tsundere qualities. Give it some depth and weight.
Xenovista LOL was about to say that
Then you should watch Neon Genesis Evangelion
It sounds like the plot of pride and prejidice, an jane austin book, without the violence.
While not in the same circumstances as Asuka, Taiga from Toradora doesn't have tsundere qualities by design, but are brought forward because of family issues and insecurity.
theres a manga like that called Mozuya Goes on a Rampage
Tsundere acts as an ego check to protagonist, making them realize what they need to change about themselves to be a better person and or connect to that girl. Gotta remember that
I'm sorry but I thought they just did the stupid shit they do because they thought that assaulting the protagonist will allow the feelings they have for them to go away. I didn't know that this was the reason for them, maybe if I tell myself this when watching anime I will be able to tolerate them
Just cause this guy said it doesn't make it true.
They and anyone else can do that.
Don't apply his idea as a gospel.
I found this video to be confused. It conflates too many things.
And this is exactly why Iris didn't work. Ash wasn't the rookie anymore, and Iris's criticism was just plain old hypocrisy as she was avictim too all the same mistake.
I'm probably in the minority, but I personally can't stand Tsundere character types.
While there are a few exceptions that I've tolerated (Stella Vermillion and Rin Tohsaka, for instance), a large majority have annoyed me beyond belief.
And to be honest, I have a lot of examples as to why I dislike the trope;
Misty from Pokémon, Asuka from Evangelion, Naru from Love Hina, Louise from The Familiar of Zero, Chitoge from Nisekoi, Julis from The Asterisk War, Taiga from Toradora, Sakura from Naruto, most of the harem from Infinite Stratos, the list goes on.
Perhaps what gets to me is how people try to justify them is because of the male protagonist for being dense, single-minded, or something to that affect.
I dunno, I just don't like overly aggressive girls who get violent towards the male lead for no reason other than projecting the writer's masochism or following trends.
Glad I'm not the only one who didn't like Misty or Asuka.
Those were annoying bitches.
Another reason why I dislike Tsunderes so much is because of my experience in an abusive relationship, but I don't really want to dwell on that.
Yeah, I'm not into aggro girls, whether they be Tsundere or otherwise.
I fucking hate Tsunderes. They're annoying bitches who get angry for no apparent reason.
Stella and Rin is okay but you dislike Asuka? lol.
I don't mind Tsundere when it's does well but most modern anime, anime made in the last 8-10 years specifically, just throws them in with little to no effort to actually make them interesting characters outside of the typical tropes.
Fine! I'll give this a video a like! B-but It's not that I l-like YOU or anything! B-baka!
Fine! I'll give this comment a like! B-but It's not that I l-like YOU or anything! B-baka!
This is cringe
Just another Hank Hill Account where are my propane accessories?
A 2 Tailed Fox this was cringe inducing
User: A 2 Tailed Fox
Icon: Nick from Zootopia, who is one tailed
*i am confusion*
A seriously important lesson we need in more media - "that you're probably just not what the other person is looking for in a partner."
Its kinda what made steins gates romance work for me, it was a both ways path both Kurisu and Okabe learn from the other and allowed themselves to slowly be more open and sincere with the other
That "De" in the title is filling my recommendations with foreign videos.
Fun.
I know this is almost two years 'late', but I came across an old comment inquiring about Kuudere's, and I wanted to repost some insight I have when it comes to them: I think they started out as a way to fulfill the appealing fantasy of warming a shy, overlooked girl's frosty (non-violent) heart. I mean, in the beginning they're aloof either to being sad or detached from the world (due to some past experience or current circumstance), then the MC comes along and shows her the world isn't cold or gray (and they don't have to be either). In addition to this, it's similar to a guy (in school or at work) approaching an unpopular girl, seeing something in her no one else does, or, (for the more cynical crowd) feeling he might have a better chance with her than with the more popular and beautiful girls.
Either way, it's got the spirit of a knight rescuing a princess (but in a modern setting where no one but they and the viewer see).
However, with the shallow way Tsundere's have gone, I think Kuudere have followed suit (from a character dynamic perspective) as a way to try and counter-act them. One is loud, violent, and dismissive? The other is calm, sweet, and possessive. The 'balance' comes in by way of assertiveness (the Tsundere is, while the Kuudere is not), thus the story a love triangle.
But with this, they're kind of locked into their dead-pan persona (since that's what they're marketed with the story as, and they're easy to write), whereas in the past they were supposed to leave it behind. But its not entirely 'their' fault. It's writers and viewers 'fault'.
It's writer's fault for not giving them development (instead just seeing a lot of 'Kuudere' type characters in other stories and inserting one into their own story). And viewers' for latching onto them, likely wanting a fantasy where a girl never yells or gets mad (yet not going full on robot-girl or alien route) like Tsundere's do and females in their life perhaps did.
That's not to say those decisions/choices are bad, just that they're imitations of something that had reasons for existing before.
I actually like(d) the tsundere: In a world where 'perfect' female romantic interests fell into this archetype of unbound kindness and acceptance (and passivity, that for some reason was considered 'feminity'), the tsundere was the only one girl who told the protagonist "no, fuck you, you are not going to get away with this shit". (Yes, please.)
I adhere to everything said in the video. I agree: the authors today don't seem to get tsunderes (Akane Tendo would be a good example of proper tsundere), they make them unbearable and don't understand even their protagonists. (Plus, responding to what someone else said in the comments: today's tsundere authors deserve to burn in their own personal "no is yes" pit of hell.)
Problematic thing with the tsundere? Normalized female-to-male violence, it being seen as comedic.
TL;DR > Video=Best. Description. of this problem. EVER.
Tsundere are self defeating. Any male protagonist with a brain would reject and avoid them.
This is my newest fav Digi vid. Soooooo much of this is stuff that's been stewing in my head for years; its super satisfying to hear it all laid out in such a logical way with no holds barred. 10/10, will watch again and again.
Something that i love about louise of zero no tsukaima is than the tsundere actitude that she has is in response of her royal position and not being capable of be a good magician, making her to take an actitude to protect her pride and royal power she believes she deserves, not accepting her weakness and trying to overcome that disability
I want to exist an anime that the protagonist assaults back the tsundere that assaults him
I think in Asuka's case, chasing over Kaji wasn't because she actually wanted a mature man, she just wanted to be with one to show that she herself was mature. But that's not how maturity works and Kaji rejected her outright for it. She then accidentally and rightfully fell for Shinji, a scared child with abandonment issues, someone in many ways similar to her. And when Shinji was on his way of becoming stronger and more mature, instead of being happy, she started experiencing fear, jealousy and frustration.
I honestly hate most Tsunderes, especially the ones in harem mangas that are also the first girl and the only one the main character gets in a relationship with in the end, which annoys me even more.
rxzero00 could that be Nisekoi?
I didn't read that one but I guess it is one of those ones now.
@@rxzero00 Trust me and spitfire, it and she is.
Like oreimo
@@eddylpark I definitely avoided that one for a few reasons.
I love when tropes are discussed like this.
Thanks for the historical context too.
A coverage of Kudere would be nice. Never actually understood that trope.
the golden year of tsundere are obviously in the 2000s but with the rise of anime like silent voice and komi san dandere will rise as well
With the timing of “and that shit sucks” to Ikki from Chivalry speaking, and “also, support me on Patreon” to Stella talking, I now have a headcannon that Stella was giving Ikki a crash course in the de-evolution of Tsunderes, and Ikki only finally got the point when she threw water bottles at him and finished hammering in how fetishistic it all is.
Despite only being made in the late 2000s, Louise embodies everything that's wrong with the tsundere. Nowadays, we're a lot more aware of female abusers. Zero no Tsukaima wouldn't fly today.
This, _this_ here is why I'm frustrated when I see some people complain or hate on older tsunderes with the context of the modern tsundere. I've never been able to quite put into words or figure out just why it's bothered me until I saw this video.
So in other words, Tsundere is a wish fulfillment fantasy of a girl still showing interest in an otherwise inadequate man and becoming a catalyst of his personal growth instead of ignoring his existence. I think I see the appeal now.
Putting in playlist of " *Food or whatever is important* "
Easily one of your best videos in a while. As probably the most knowledgeable person on TH-cam about anime and anime history, it only makes sense that your best work comes from the perspective only you can bring.
im so glad youve kept up these older videos, theyre very nostalgic for a rewatch and I always enjoy seeing them. (also ive been watching you since your MLP days and im glad youre still making videos !!!)
Glad you like them!
What a value you have found in watching old anime.
Rin Tohsaka is a perfect example of a tsundere done right, Vibe checks Shirou and sparks change within him and her self in pretty much every route.
7:40 I've been noticing this and haven't said anything, and maybe this is Davoo's fault, or they weren't actually talking about the series and just book covers, but it seems like Digi will do absolutely anything and take any opportunity to paint Oregairu in a bad light. Hachiman is very much a focus on the series, and frankly, you'd be hard pressed to find ANY protagonist with more relative screen time than him.
Ikr.
Tbh, Hachiman is one of the few modern MC that I actually like and can relate, since well...he feels like an actual human character. He isn´t like the usual paper-flat MC that most series get, but it´s one portrayed REALLY well, and it´s accurate to reality.
To be fair to the trope, a woman can want a man to change in a way that is not necessarily wrong but is also not something nessecary or that the guy would want, in these situations one might expect the relationship to fail as it is likely based on a false image of what a relationship should be, however it is possible that the relationship is actually built on something firmer than the fallacy and that both parties need only grow emotionally when it comes to each other rather than a general character flaw.
I'd love to see an anime where the male lead reacts to the Tsundere slap by punching her in the face. If you are willing to hit someone, be prepared for retaliation.
How did it take me so many years to watch this one? This video rules
I keep coming back to this video every so often because it's such a good breakdown of things. Almost to the point that I'd consider it a must-watch for anime fans.
Twin tail tsunderes became my thing early on I do like someone like the girl from the fruit of grisaia
Where her trying to be tsundere us part of her quirkiness simply because she usually forgets that shes supposed to act like one and remembers in the funniest situations also the dmfact that ryuji always makes her embarrassed
The tsundere trope is weird because women dont actually criticize men consciously in the way tsundere characters do. I think tsundere characters are a personification of how men criticize themselves in order to be desirable to a woman
possibly
Squishier Gnat That’s the case for almost every dere~type that they are unrealistic.
What do you know about women
That's a pretty good take on the subject.
Nice observation👍
I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with using a Tsundere character in any particular way, as long as...:
1. ...the writer understands that an extreme personality trait like this is a character flaw that, ideally, the character would overcome and grow out of by the end of the story through the hard work, challenge, sacrifice, and pain of character development...
2 ...the writer understands who the protagonist of the story is - who is taking the active role in changing either themselves, their surroundings and situation, or other people over the course of the story,for better or worse....
3 ...the writer understands what sort of story he/she is telling, the tone and "tropes" used to tell a traditional form of the story, and how and when and why to change or break the traditional rules of this sort of story
4 ..the writer understands when it's useful to "fix" a flawed character like the Tsundere, and when it's useful to keep her development arrested in that flawed state (typically for comedic or tragic effect!)
I think any supposed de-evolution of the Tsundere can probably be blamed fairly on one of two things: either the writer doesn't understand one or more of those fundamentals of storytelling, or the audience is missing the point.
"I Hate Tsunderes!", without qualification, is probably a sign that you're listening to someone who is missing the point, because they just "don't get it", or haven't seen enough variety in the way this sort of character is used to get the right context, etc. Of course, the fetishists probably miss the point, too: they probably don't see the Tsundere trait as a character flaw, and if the fetishist is writing the story without realizing that this is a character flaw, the story is probably not going to go over well very far outside the community of people who enjoy fantasizing about being verbally, emotionally, and physically misused by perpetually angry anime girls! (You know who you are....)
I think it's just the normal course of tropes in general. Like the examples Egoraptor gave for the evolution of tropes in Zelda games, people will eventually care more about the "thing" than the actual reasons behind the "thing" being there. It's only natural that we become fascinated by the end product of the tsundere as an attractive trait, without actually reflecting on what made the tsundere attractive in the first place, and look to replicate it. In the end, the tsundere trope nowadays function just because of the collective otaku experience of having witnessed actual tsunderes done well in the past. I'm guessing that's why someone seeing tsundere characters nowadays, without having seen the backlog of old anime establishing the trope, would find them immediately obnoxious, or out of nowhere (there is an example in a lot of comments here).
It's up to us to start identifying the shortcuts the authors are taking, wanting to have the payoff (of a tsundere) without the actual effort (of building a logical context and giving it a purpose). The good thing is that it's also only natural that people will start to get bored of the trope eventually, so it will have to reinvent itself to survive.
PD: Keitaro actually changes a lot by the end of Love Hina for the sake of his relationship with Naru, which then puts all the weight in Naru to change because her tsundere attitude starts getting in the way in a really extreme manner, it's a really fun ending. I blame this misconception of the character to the fact the the final OVA's weren't as popular and came like two years after the original adaptation... long live Love Hina.
Also people are Tsundere. In normal life people hide their true feelings because of the potential for rejection. When a Tsundere character wants someone to change they aren't just Tsundere, but are also something else like a friend who wants to help someone else grow. Also creating a change in a person is sometimes an appeal to righteousness like "If only he could see how right, and great I am" which still leads back to potential for rejection. So I don't think Tsundere has "de-evolved", but characters in general have become different, de-evolved, or evolved as the case may be.
Good job Digi keep it up, you are a good boy
Agustin agreed, a very good boy
One of the 5 good comments on TH-cam
I mean, to my mind, the emphasis of the Tsundere is a lack of communication. Tsunderes act the way they do because they're not willing to open up to people. Something has happened to them that makes it difficult for them to rely on others, or trust anyone. Their arc, then, is learning to have that trust and to allow themselves to be vulnerable. By contrast, the arc of the male lead is going to be becoming the kind of person who's worth opening up to.
...Wait, that actually *is* what you said, isn't it.
This is an excellent analysis. I've said for a while that it's likely that this archetype has been corrupted over the years. In Toradora, both Ryuji and Taiga grew as people as their feelings grew. On the other hand, a lot of what are now considered typical tsundere characters are the ones who change because they realize that their romantic interest is already what they need and their apprehension is the problem with their happiness.
I think in more recent years, it's more become more about "Breaking the wall" of a "mean girl". Anyone can seem cold and distant at first but once you begin to understand one another that wall that was there is gone. I agree that it's not as good as it was before but society has moved towards "love yourself" so, maybe the tsundere has just been altered to meet today's standards?
Am I the only person that hates tsunderes? I mean seriously, I have heard that shows like Tora Dora were great, but the first time I saw that girl slapping the crap out of the dude, I was like, "Nope, I'm out." I just have a very difficult time dealing with any people and/or characters that feel that they can act that way, and that any person is supposed to just accept or deal with that until they decide it's "safe" for them to act like a normal human being. I had the exact same issue when I started watching Bakemonogatari. I mean a dude saves a girl's life and then in their next encounter, she staples his cheek, and then instantly he wants to "help" her?! What happened to the scene where he beat her into the pavement first? I mean I know that sounds extreme, but come on man, what is that? The only thing that kept me watching that show is the simple fact that Senjogahara is flat blazing, and I had to keep watching her, and I hated myself for doing so. But the show is pretty good once you get into it, so it's okay. Anyhow, does anyone else feel me?
I know what you mean i really hated Toradora because of that abusive loli. She ruins the anime with her childish attitude, she was useless from beginning till the end and never grew as a character. Also the last 5 episodes were very bad imo. I dont know how people liked this when there are romance anime done much better. A good example “ano natsu de matteru” and “tsuki ga kirei”.
Jay Anderson A lot of comments about people that hate tsunderes and on anime communities threads about how “annoying” tsunderes are and you are asking if you are the only one that hates them.
Ano Natsu much better romance than Toradora? Nice joke. More like you only hate Tsundere and not the actual show or characters and spit shit because of your liking.
X Ramon Yea dude sure the tsundere is the only bad thing about this shit show. Like the idiot MC suddenly changing his mind about the girl he loves without a single hint as to why he makes that choice. She loving him was understandable and pretty obvious but him loving her is beyond stupid and makes no sense. Even by spending the most time together, if the other person treats you like trash even if you do all the housework, sorry but only a masochist would like such a person. And they suddenly want to marry? lol The other characters? They were just there to make the main couple get together at the end. Glasses dude had a mini arc about the president and thats basically it. Minori had a very likable character but she also had no reason to reject him. Because sure better hurt youself when you love someone for so long, so a girl with mental and family issues who does not bother fixing them until the end can take him. Talking about how stupid the characters act. Ami was probably the best character and the only one with an IQ over zero who knew what was going on near the end by throwing some hints here and there. She was the most developed character who actually had a good chemistry with the MC but sadly her lack of screentime and the fact that she never tried was very frustrating, though i understand her situation.
This dude literally confessed to the girl he loved and 2 episodes later he suddenly loves the abusive loli. Then she just disappears without telling him anything and the last scene is her literally hitting him again showing how much she has grown as a character xD What a great romance plot dude. I have seen alot of anime where my favourite doesn’t win but you know what atleast they have good writing and a good cast.
By the way ano natsu was only 12 episodes and it still does everything better with its characters and their development.
Nyanko Sensei lol seriously i too hate toradora so predictable and so stupid i don't know why people actually recommend it to others.
4:55 KEKLMAO yeah, Shinji is completely deaf, in a way. He can read the expressions of others, but as to what they really mean, how they are on the inside and what they really want... He can barely figure out himself, how can he begin to with others?
Tsundere is for plebs
Tomboy is the true patricians choice
Very much so
>No mention of big titted older sisters.
>Expects to be taken seriously as a patrician.
>lel
what if you combine Tsundere and Tomboy into one female character?
I can appreciate them, although they’re extremely rare in anime. As long as they aren’t too tomboy, that is.
Tomboys are the waifu master race.
I really love your videos focusing on one major aspect of across multiple shows than on multiple aspect for only one show. They come across much more uncontroversial and solid.
Tsundere are so overwhelming in anime that I get annoyed by them almost immediately when they pop up. It takes a lot for me to like Tsundere character nowadays.
there is so many trashy this days, no wonder I dislike them, they were the first I saw of Tsun
how about call them just Bitchdere?`because seems like only the past got good tsunderes, or most of them?
same
To be honest, it SHOULD take a lot for you to like a person who displays serious bitch tendencies. Either the protagonist grows up and stops being a moron (aka has a character arc) and the tsundere stops delivering her legitimate but scathing/bitchy criticism, or the tsundere herself has the character arc and moves past the emotional/mental hangups that cause her to react like a bitch. Otherwise the character is just a bitch and shouldn't be likeable.
Same!
@@overkill1340 Even in the classic sense, it's too one sided. BOTH of them should grow up.
Like, one of the things that bothered me about Ranma 1/2 was that the bulk of the blame fell on Ranma even though Akane had at least 50% of the blame (and let's not even touch on how the fiancee situation came through because Genma engaged his son to so many women). Don't get me wrong, Ranma has his faults an dis rightly called out for some, but AKANE is never called out for her bullshit like he is, and if anyone does they are framed as being unreasonable at best.
(And this is without even touching on the fact that anyone who puts up with Akane on a romantic level while she still has her issues AND doesn't acknowledge that she is in the wrong has got to be nothing less than a saint, which is not fair on whoever her partner is. Ranma can at least accept that he is being criticized without turning into a violent maniac)
Like, yes, all of the girls in Ranma 1/2 need to deal with their issues, but the whole point is that no one is perfect and unbiased, which is where the comedy gold comes from.
Granted, the end result is that a lot of people have their favorite pairings and some have very valid reasons for why Ranma would give up on the concept of marrying Akane and find a way out of the engagement.
This is kind of why I am more interested in male Tsundere, because their whole arc is about growing and dealing with their issues that causes them to be temperamental jerks at times, not because of romance, but because their attitude is getting in the way of their goals or really is causing them problems. If a female Tsundere does this, they would be more interesting.
I think Ataru and Ranma are the Harem protagonists that got it right. They got crap from the girls but they could also give crap as well, bantering and bickering without it feeling too one-sided. Though Ranma had the benefit of being tough enough to roll with the punches...
imo Takahashi does a good job of creating these bickering couples that genuinely seem to be what their partner needs. Both characters are usually flawed and need to grow into a relationship. Some people despise the "takahashi couple" style though because there is always so many misunderstandings. My favourite is from Maison Ikkoku.
6:40 The best type of character arc for these types of characters would be if both of them had to change. I mean, that's kind of what real life relationships can be, both people in the relationship realizing their faults and that they have to improve themselves in order to be there for the person they love. Unfortunately, anime usually seems disinterested in presenting romantic relationships as two way, mutual partnerships, even though that's exactly what they are.
Tsundere creates conflict. You can get more out of a story from conflict than from two characters who just love each other without any reason not to already express their feelings. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it's more difficult to write a compelling story around. It's much like take any generic romance and insert incest. Now there is a conflict as to why the characters aren't expressing their feelings, or coming to terms with their feelings. In the case of Tsundere being ego checks I think that is more a minority case. Asuka and Shinji's relationship was more showing two damaged children with parental issues. Asuka wanted approval from her father and sought a father figure in Kaji, and was upset that she had feelings for Shinji who remained distant towards her. Shinji wanted a mother figure which he saw much of in Rei for obvious reasons. Pretty much Anno took a psyche 101 class and ran with it.
Either way tsundere is often just a conflict device, and when it came about somewhat of a fetish for the Japanese. Tsundere were more of a western thing. Most early characters with this trait were things like exchange students or half Japanese. Their behavior is often indicative of someone who really isn't fully aware of or ignores Japanese custom. Also it fits well for love triangles, as there is someone who can be vocally or physically harmful towards the MC if they are involving themselves with other women. This leads to the MC not wanting to displease the Tsundere, even if they have more overt feelings for another character. Today the tsundere is less effective than it had been in years past. This is more due to the self insert MC becoming so big. A character that is so bland, aloof, indecisive and that characters just like because he's a nice guy, that readers can just insert themselves onto. This is opposed to something like School Rumble where Harima was a defined character with his own personality. Haganai on the other hand even makes fun of how bland the MC is. So how well a tsundere is also depends on how well they can play off of the MC, rather than the MC just being a device for their affection.
In general I agree with your assessment, but I will say that Chivalry of a Failed Knight is still my second favorite romance in anime, so I don’t think the trend is all bad and in fact according to Quora this new Tsundere is what is making it popular in the first place.
Wow, this is the first legitimate, and logical arguement on tsundere I have ever heard. 'Clap,clap' I'm impressed.
I always hated the modern tsudere. You get nothing out of them and they barely help the main character grow, unlike it’s older type.
Yukinoshita along with Yui helped A LOT on the development and growth of Hachiman´s character; which I would say, is the main selling point of the novels (Oregairu, SNAFU, whatever suits your boat)
THANK YOU! This is something I've been thinking about for years but just never had the opportunity or time to talk about in any creative way. Now you've done it, so thanks.
I like the type of tsundere who
A: doesn’t harm anyone
B: doesnt have a “crush” on anyone (I’ll explain)
C: just doesn’t like talking about their feelings and become a little angry if anyone crosses their boundaries
So what I mean is, a less intense person who just doesn’t like talking about their feelings. So I guess you would just call that a Tsun- Person? Not relating to love, but relating to their personality.
Thank you! Finally a video with manageable length! That's all I ever wanted from you...
LMAO at Digibro consistent prodding at Oregairu when Hachiman is the entire selling point of the series. Just because he doesn't physically take up space on the cover art, does not mean he lacks importance. Without him the series would not have fans, that's factual.
insanylum13 when does he actually mention Oregairu in this video actually?
7:41 "we've watched anime romcoms shift focus away from the male protagonist" and then there is a picture of Oregairu.
I'm not sure if this is Digi's doing or if Davoo is just trying to be a smart asshole, but either way, it's not accurate in the slightest.
insanylum13 lmao what Hachiman is like 2/3rds of why the show is good and people like it
I know, that was my point, I'm just saying what Digi is implying with this editing.
His personal vendetta towards a show shouldn't supercede the facts.
Oregairu pretty much focueses on the evolution of Hachiman, and to some point, his friends. We all are totally aware that the main girls evolve by the plot (Yukino and Yui), but the one that made complete jumps in character development is him.
Hell, even if the video goes by the promotional image, it still accurately illustrates how Hachiman is at the beginning (since that´s S1 image). Hachiman rejects, despises, and avoids getting involved with others, since he tried to open to other people, but this backfired him, thus becoming a close-minded person. The poster is done well, and the series overall it´s really good, and actually showcases how actual relationships (not only in this scenario, that is a high school) develop and evolve.
I would argue this trope goes back longer then we think. In shakes much ado about nothing and Beatrice had a thing. But the reason why it wasn't working was pride on both there ends. But mostly because Ben was like I'm never getting married which would be fine if he wasn't also dressing up in mascarde so he could secretly dance with Beatrice to find out her feelings for him.
I like this trope when used right. When used badly it's annoying.
I feel like with Kurisu, it wasn't nearly as easy to notice, like it was definitely there, but Kurisu wasn't "over the top trying to literally kill main character" like with most. At least it wasn't to the point where I stopped liking the character like I did with most tsunderes, which I enjoyed because with the way that Okabe acted in the show, it almost made Kurisu feel relatable in a sense. Once Okabe showed his soft side, Kurisu didn't immediately begin beating the crap out of him, she actually calmed down a bit as well, which made her feel like a real character, rather than a stereotype or something along the lines of that. I don't know, to me Kurisu is just an example of how the trope can be executed properly without making the character unlikable.
I think Kurisu is a good tsundere.
That's it. That's all I have to say.
Same the only tsundere i like
JustMonica Yeah and Senjougahara ( Yeah she also counts). Rin also decent. But I don’t understand the love for Taiga but that’s probably just me.
She's honestly the best one.
This video was simple and clean...
I don't give care why Tsndere characters do what they do I just hate them. There is no reason you can say that will convince me that Tsndere need to exist in anime. I just want for once to see and anime where the Tsndere finally confesses her feelings to the dude and he says hell no. Why would I want to get with someone that physically abused me. And then walks away an leaves her there in tears. Or even better yet I want to see an anime where when the Tsndere gets physically abusive. The MC fights back instead of just letting her get away with abusing him.
Chivalry of the Failed Knight, but the former tsundere gets proposed to. The main girl gets over her 'tsun' phase literally near the beginning of the series and becomes more 'dere' as it continues.
@@sparda74 she is still kinda annoying
@@LazarOrthodox04 No.
@@bakedbeans5494 yes and st
Gross exaggeration. In a comedy, physical comedy is a gag. tsundere are not violent inherently. You've probably got a caricature idea or you've only watched rather bad works. Basically, read good stuff and you'll avoid this.
In complete honesty, I think this is one of the best videos you've ever made. Snappy, concise, insightful, and able to articulate and expand upon in just 8 minutes the thoughts that have been circling my head throughout my entire anime watching experience. Well done.
i utterly hate the Tsundere character, what was once a well thought out character has now been shoe horned into every single fukking anime.
i started judging how good an anime by how much they use the trope to propel the story forward.
the less the better if it doesn't have one even better.
now to be fair an example of a good Tsundere Character would be Casca from Berserk there is an entire backstory as to why she behaves the way she does.
shitty Tsundere characters imo are the ones that beat up the prot in the first chapter. sure it was funny the first time i saw it but after literally seeing it being used in almost every anime out there you get tired of it.
The mere mention of Casca gives me PTSD.
Thats something that annpys me most
For me as a tsundete myself these tsunderes in todays media just seem so unrealistic and have no valid reason for being that way
I for example grew up saying "i hate guys" (im not defending myself i know that was super stupid and sexist) because I always was surronded by girls in my family etc
(+ in my elementary class were many mean guys and stuff which made me hate and generalize them even more)
And my mum and aunts used to tease me everytime someone kissed in a movie like "oh quick close ur eyes" etc
So I just adopted that and grew up "hating" the idea of platonic love
And combining these two and the struggles of puberty and discovering sexuality you can probably imagine what happened with my first ever crush
Comig over those fears and mind sets is difficult and this struggle is never really portraited in todays animes
Things like that make a tsundere thats psychology and media today just portrais them as total bitches of corse everyone will think theyre annoying
Asuka is the perfect Tsundere. No BS.
What about Revy from Black Lagoon
I see Mitsuba--- clicky time. Although about Mitsuba you're kinda right about her. She served as a fetishistic tsundere only to never mention her feelings and just disapears into the background after the first arc.
Tsundere creates conflict which is always more interesting than no conflict.
Dumb conflict based on a basic ass character trope is worse than no conflict.
@@ThunderFlarzthis
Thanks. That was all super insightful.
I just realised that the novel I'm writing has an absolute mega-tsundere as main character. I've never really thought of her this way. I mainly thought of her as 'someone who's pride is preventing her from befriending anyone because she can't stand anyone who doesn't fulfill her ideal of friendship (which is filled with contradictions, skewed values and hypocricy)'. Her 'ideal male figure' is on a poster, and she just projects everything on him, even behaviour and voice.
I never thought of her as a tsundere. The book is about her finding real friendship through hardship imposed on her by her inhumanely sadistic classmate. This video helped me name certain things and put them a bit more into perspective. It helps me shape what I want out of the story, and I want to thank you for that.
There's a male secondary protagonist who's a nerd who's at the same time insecure about himself (opposite of the main character) selling himself short every time meanwhile he's searching for this same kind of made-up skewed hypocrite relationship that the MC searches for, just romantically (basically a /r9k/ robot). Your mere line about ano natsu de matteru immediately made me rethink his role in the story. I'm gonna make him more sympathetic.
I think Evangelion and Steins;Gate are some of the best representations of the Tsundere dynamic as there are legitimate psychological reasons for the Tsundere to act the way they do and both them and the male love interest have to learn and change. I think placing the burden of the dynamic on only one of them leads to poor storytelling.
I think a really good example of a tsundere character with a purpose is Onodera Ritsu from Sekaiichi Hatsukoi. He never used to be like that, but in highschool, when the one person he loved the most in the world absolutely crushed his heart (it was a misunderstanding though), he began to see the worst outcomes of everything and it really affected his outlook on life. It twisted his personality into the jaded adult he is today and well now he's a huge tsundere (especially when he finds out his past first-love, is not only his boss but his neighbour). When Takano (his boss) declares that he will make him say I love you again, that's when the walls Ritsu thought so hard to build around him, begin to crumble, but because of the fear of a second horrific break up, he continuously tries to repair the cracks. And this is done by pushing Takano away, with every advance he makes on him. (he also gets extremely embarrassed to the point where he needs to get out situations with Takano FAST). He just doesn't seem to see a happy ending with anything.
Anyways he's probably one of my favourite Tsunderes. Despite, how annoying he can be at times. I really strongly dislike when a 'Tsundere' is just a 'Tsundere' just because.
Maybe the reason why the focus isn't put on the male lead to change is because those characters are often meant to be generic audience-inserts. Putting the focus on them to change would require establishing them as their own character.
#temariwasbesttsunderedonefine
You're pretty close to the truth here. I believe the main reason why modern stories present static main characters is because the author themselves refuse to see and learn from their failings. Most people nowadays have this idea that the don't need to change, they only need to find someone who accepts them. And so when tsundere, which is a character trope used to bring about change happens, they loathe it because they don't want to change. They can't see the need to fix their problems, so the girl who is forcing that change(regardless of whether she gets violent or not, and some tsundere are actually quite fair and don't get violent) is a bitch.
"Why should I change when I can simply find someone who accepts me the way I already am?"
Ever wonder why most relationships fail nowadays? I can assure you the above statement is one of the main reasons.
No one is willing to compromise anymore, it's pretty much "either do things my way, or go away" nowadays.
I agree with you both. From the only modern anime I have seen this kind of happening is in Oregairu. And I say "kind of", because the main girl (can´t recall her name), her character proceeds to devolve from a secure and independent character, to the opposite to some degree. Sure, the MC evolves aswell, since he starts to accept others as they are, and wants to change due to how his personality is destroying what he has been able to create (friendships), so his character starts to evolve.
From this video, Oregairu would be a mix from the original and modern Tsundere archetype.