Synthetic vs Natural Anode - Which is Better? (Deep Dive)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มิ.ย. 2024
- The Talga and Novonix videos lead to the obvious question: Which is better, synthetic or natural anode? In this video, I answer that question by doing a deep dive into what the research says. The answer is nuanced.
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Battery Bulletin TH-cam Channel: / @batterybulletin
Timeline
0:00 Introduction
1:17 Dahn Paper
7:29 Oak Ridge Paper
11:35 Dahn vs Oak Ridge
12:20 Synthetic vs Natural Production
14:00 Ulm Paper
16:29 Putting it all Together
17:22 Loose Ends
19:19 Key Takeaways
20:10 Novonix vs Talga Final Points
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#Talga #Novonix #BattChat #BatteryTwitter
Intro Music by Dyalla: Homer Said - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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My wife: What are you watching?
Me: It's complicated.
Wife: Explain it to me.
Me: How much do you know about battery anodes?
Wife: *walks away*
Lol :D can relate :D (well not the wife part i don't want or have a wife :p )
Exactly that. 😅
I'm dying, lol
@@thelimitingfactor Hey, thank you for creating these gems! I've not even seen Novonix, so fresh your videos for me.
Don't get started on electrolyte and Maxwell with her!
He said his signature catch phrase "limiting factor". That's how you know he's getting serious!
LOL
Nice wrap up to the anode series Jordan. I cannot honestly thank you enough for the shoutout at the end of the video. It is not easy to find a TH-camr who would help a fellow youtuber to grow, who is new, especially someone who is talking on a similar topic. Respect!!!! 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 This guy is a legend!!!
With Longyi Powder Grinding and Spheroidization solutions to improve your battery performance with rounded synthetic graphite/natural graphite powder.
Synthetic graphite/natural graphite are the most important anode materials for lithium-ion batteries. In order to make maximize use of raw material graphite, it must be grinding into ultrafine powder and doing spheroidization.
Longyi solutions could help you reach the following targets:
- increase the final yield rate of target product with a lower energy consumption
- increased final graphite’s tap density
- improved storage capacity by increase the synthetic graphite/natural graphite powder uniform
- shorted the battery charge time
- increased batteries service life
artificial graphite, synthetic graphite, rounded graphite, natural graphite, anode materials,
lithiumion, spheroidization
Longyi Patented Artificial Graphite Powder Production Line is running in client’s site. It’s also suitable to do grinding and shape-making/classifying/spheroidization for nature graphite and calcined petroleum coke/petroleum coke/green coke.
Samuel
MP/Wechat/Whatsapp: +86 15105956429
Your videos are completely amazing and unique. There's no other deep dive of batteries anywhere else in a easily digestible way!
I hope it starts a movement! We need an army of people tearing apart research papers to educate the general public.
My wife and I love your presentations. We’ve been pondering Novonix vs Talga ever since you’ve helped illuminate them. This video is superb! You are definitely an asset to our thought processes. Thanks for all you’re doing.
Comments like this make it all worth while 😃
As always. Amazing research and great structure... well done Jordan
Excellent video yet again Jordan! Explaining complicated topics in a simple manner
Sure thing man! I always appreciate your support.
Seriously awesome work on your video's. Thank you so much :) you are appreciated
Great summary, Jordan. Learnt a lot! Keep up the good work! Greetings from Germany, Richard
Great work Jordan, very interesting analysis. You must spend a lot of time on research for these videos.
Excellent work and presentation! Thank you!
it's just perfect !!! this video is very helpful, i'm so very thankful for your presentation.
Thank you Jordan, decided to value your effort by becoming a patron!
You youtube guys around Tesla and batteries in general are the real mvps!
Thank you guys, you are awesome.
Cheets
Sure thing Felix! Thanks for the support
Awesome summary, thank you! 👍
Jordan, based on all your videos I think there will be significant announcements in 5 different cell/pack areas, on battery day: 1. Dry battery electrode - with cell production streamlining; 2. Improved cathode chemistry (Jeff Dahn); 3. Improved anode composition using both natural and artificial graphite; 4. Tab less cells; and 5. Cell to battery pack (removing modules). This is a radical redesign of most aspects of the complex processes from Lithium ore to car battery pack. A revolution, Eamon
NAILED IT! These are the pieces that matter. I hope they also mention electrolyte, but it's unlikely. Probably a manufacturing focus.
Commenting after Bday and wow! You guys predicted it!! This is probe of the insides you've got! Second wow!
This channel covers lithium ion batteries comprehensively. Truly insightful.
Your videos are inspiring. Thank you.
I love this channel. Thank you
Top notch content as always, thanks. You advise for everybody doing their own due diligence. But who are we kidding, for retail investors you're setting the bar frickin' high.
Lol, touche
Super well done Jordan!
Thanks Richard!
Wonderful work again Jordan ! You teach us many things, and in details.
At the moment it's easy to self congratulate ourselves to be early investors in TESLA, but you are specialy clever to anker our feet in reality, and analyse all potentiel developments, with an acute finesse... THANKS !
Thanks for the the support man! I've got a 'fun' video releasing this evening (nz time) if I can get it wrapped up today. 😀
I've invested in both Talga and Novonix as I think both are going to be key suppliers in the next 5 years
Anyone want to suggest what these companies might be worth by 2025 if they execute?
Hemp activated charcoal converted to graphite would be best because it is extremely porus and highly conductive. More porus gives more room for lithium ions. The porosity is hard to replicate with either natural mined or synthetic petroleum based graphite. The unique features also creates buit in expansion compensation. ❤
Thanks Jordan i really enjoy the video
You're welcome Ron! Thanks for the support.
Intersting Insights! Great Video
Opportunities are like sunrises. If you wait too long, you-miss them. bitcoin Investment had been nice to me since the day contacted Mr Nicholas on Instagram. i never believe on it until i got paid of $15,720 am happy because i found that honest. if you are interested in doubling your coins,check out on Mr Nicholas Myron on Insta @nicholas__fxtrade for more information thank you.
Fantastic information!
Opportunities are like sunrises. If you wait too long, you-miss them. bitcoin Investment had been nice to me since the day contacted Mr Nicholas on Instagram. i never believe on it until i got paid of $15,720 am happy because i found that honest. if you are interested in doubling your coins,check out on Mr Nicholas Myron on Insta @nicholas__fxtrade for more information thank you.
I love the electron microscope pics! Reminds of my metallurgy days.
Yeah, SEM porn is the best, lol
Thanks Jordan, thorough research very relevant to both understanding and appreciating decisions made by Tesla, which will be revealed on Battery Day. Brilliant! Eamon
Sure thing Eamon!
Thanks Jordan for taking us through difficult topics in a logical and understandable approach. Very illuminating as usual. Do you see any other cell chemistry potentially catching up with Lithium Ion?
No problemo! The materials used to contain li-ion will change, but Li will remain king for at least the next decade if not more.
Amazing Information. I cant wait for SiLION video! Ive been stuck on the idea if I should invest in graphene material if silicon is found to be superior for material for anode ? Unless both will have to used together to function?
Both graphite and silicon will be needed! It will be MANY years before graphite is replaced completely. Silicon will be gradually introduced.
They are both good . My money is in both equally. By the way thanks for all your hard work.🙏
With battery day allegedly coming up in September, are you going to do a short summary video of your predictions?
No, I"m going to do a long summary video 😉
Hi, how would you evaluate this battery inovation: on extremetech.com there is an article about a 2000x densier Li battery perfected by Illinois university in 2013. Wait for your opinion!
Great video again Jordan! Through the reasearch papers you referenced from Germany, I came across SGL Carbon now. They seem to be the European version of Novonix. Did you ever research them?
Not deeply! They seem to be pretty onto it though. They are referenced a lot.
Great find! Here is some info material... www.sglcarbon.com/pdf/SGL-Brochure-SIGRACELL-The-Capacity-Boosters-EN.pdf
@@tombratfred3102 Thanks! Also found this press release from Jan 2020. They have a contract to produce Ultra-light landing gear made of carbon fiber composites for air taxis this year:
www.sglcarbon.com/en/company/press/press-information/press-report/ultra-light-landing-gear-made-of-carbon-fiber-composites-for-air-taxis/
Could be an interesting company to watch in the coming months as they have multiple buisness units playing key trens around fuel cells, Syntethic anode & composites (that make the body of the vehicle lighter)
Thank you!
the majestic man is back
🦚🦚🦚
Hi jordan, if and this is a very big if, if tesla have silicon nanowire, wha effect it may bring to current battery? Or next gen battery?
That won't be ready for a good 5 years and then it will take time to scale it. Tesla will continue to expand the amount of silicon they put in the cell...but the battery cells already have silicon in them. Graphite will be needed for a LONG time.
Another really interesting video - if you're into this sort of thing. Any process that relies on the waste products of a non renewable utilizing process is surely non renewable in its own right. I don't know the reason for the the spheroidizarion of particles in the anode or what chemistry is occuring because of it, but wouldn't diamond spheroidize brilliantly? There'd be no flaking and as you'd get as perfect spheres as you'd demand. Sounds expensive obviously, although diamonds can be synthesized from graphite in the first instance.
Longyi Patented Artificial Graphite Powder Production Line is running in client’s site. It’s suitable to do grinding and shape-making/classifying/spheroidization for nature graphite and calcined petroleum coke/petroleum coke/green coke.
With Longyi Powder Grinding and Spheroidization solutions to improve your battery performance with rounded synthetic graphite/natural graphite powder.
Synthetic graphite/natural graphite are the most important anode materials for lithium-ion batteries. In order to make maximize use of raw material graphite, it must be grinding into ultrafine powder and doing spheroidization.
Longyi solutions could help you reach the following targets:
- increase the final yield rate of target product with a lower energy consumption
- increased final graphite’s tap density
- improved storage capacity by increase the synthetic graphite/natural graphite powder uniform
- shorted the battery charge time
- increased batteries service life
artificial graphite, synthetic graphite, rounded graphite, natural graphite, anode materials,
lithiumion, spheroidization
Samuel
MP/Wechat/Whatsapp: +86 15105956429
One thing missing from many of your videos so far is cost. Is there a material cost delta between synth & natural?
Good question, I focused on the total cost of production rather than the individual elements. The costs that I saw varied so much that I decided to focus on the finished cost and market price. I think synthetic is pretty cheap...about $500 tonne for the synthetic raw materials. With graphite it's essentially the cost to dig it up, and then how much it costs to concentrate it (both dependent on ore grade and can vary by orders of magnitude).
Excellent
Do you have an idea about Nouveau Monde Graphite in Canada?
I haven't done a deep dive, but I like what I'm hearing so far.
In case graphite will become that scarce as their founder is forecasting it is really going to become the new black gold. Having completed already 5 of expected 7 years that it takes to become operational seems to be a good moat towards potential competitors. This company appears to become a good ESG investing play too. So they are accompanying Talga and Novonix now on my portfolio race track. Greetings from Trier, Germany's oldest city a many thanks for your phenomenal videos!
@@ralfschroder4452 Thanks for the support Ralf!
Dang it. The stream will begin in 10:30 p.m. to my local time.
That sucks! Sick day? lol
Novonix will probably provide the electrolyte for NA tesla cells imo.
I began zoning out and wondered if diamond cores can wear a coating of nano carbon material; that is, if greater heat conductivity of graphite material can extend battery service life. And now I wonder if the use of covetic aluminum and covetic copper battery cell materials could lead to increased electrical current charge/discharge rates due to heat conductivity/transference (as well as decreasing a cell's internal electrical resistance).
very much has been said about the role and chemistry of Amprius, just 300 meters from Tesla. That discussion is important, since Amprius' tech might radically change the composition of anode material. Word is that using nanotech intervention, Amprius has overcome the problem of discharge cycle-related silicon cracking. It is said that Amprius is now looking at upwards of a 50% improvement of energy density. If true this development --I still call it a rumor-- would have very deep knock-on implications for the entire energy storage industry. That development might carry, uh...an IMPACT on the valuation of, uh...certain companies. I mean, a really big one. Might you consider treating this weighty question in one of your future videos, the value of which I consider to be STELLAR.
Hello sir! I've spent months thinking about Si, just as I had spent months thinking about graphite 😀. Elon shot down the Amprius claims yesterday, but I'll be doing more digging. There is something there in terms of direction of travel.
what if we manage to figure out how to create silicon anode? that would destroy demand for graphite. musk just posted photos of silicon nano wires right?
Pure silicon anode is many years away. It might be that we completely eliminate the anode material and move to a copper foil. However, I think it will be 2030 before graphite demand falls off. Notice that it's taking Panasonic 5 years to get from 250wh/kg to 300wh/kg in the timeline. Removing graphite algtogether isn't going to happen over night. There is also different use cases for different battery chemistries (cycles life, charge/discharge rates)
I bet you're getting a lot of invites to speak on other youtube channels as we ramp up to battery day.
Actually none! lol After my interview with Gali there was a tidal wave, and now not so much. All good by me though. I'd rather interview people. I did chat with EV Stock Channel last week and we talked a little about battery day. He wanted moonshots.
Tesla Daily might be the go to solution for a calm and educated talk. I'm surprised he hasn't contacted you for this. Probably he's still building up knowledge
@@entspannter_hase We keep in touch 🤠
What about vein vs flake ?
Really well presented arguments! So; does the synthetic (SI ) graphite create an incentive to burn coal. Seems to defeat the purpose of greening the planet, whereas Natural graphite uses up coal burned millions of years ago. Also the tech and $ input to grind and manufacture SI to a specific size may be more efficaciously used to harvest the Natural graphite.
I don't think it offers an incentive, but it was something that concerned me as well! The steel industry dwarfs the battery industry in terms of usage, even after taking into account expansion in the next decade. My preference is natural, but it needs to proven for long cycle life. Synthetic is king there and it makes up for the fossil fuel industry links through cycle life.
What is the status of recycling batteries, grinding them up and using them as a raw material source? Critics of renewable energy will pounce if there are toxicity issues.
There is actually a great video on the EV stock channel about this topic. There is a process called hydro metallurgy which means that is environmental friendly. Companies like American Manganese, Metso Outotec & Redwood Materials (I guess) use this process for recycling
Agreed! EV Stock Channel is tackling recycling and mining. We chat a lot. He's developing great contacts and depth.
You forgot to add this one to the carbon series playlist.
Oh cool thanks!
On Twitter you said 400wh/kg would likely mean a 100% silicon anode. However in this video you said that the limiting factor for lithium ion capacity is the cathode. The two statements seem contradictory to me. What am I misunderstanding?
Both statements are true: 100% silicon anode has like 10x the energy density of a graphite anode...yet it only improves energy density by about 30%. It's not a 'hard' limiting factor until about 400wh/kg or a bit beyond. In other words: diminishing returns...a soft limiting factor.
I have not understood why increasing silicon in the anode is a good thing (as Elon keeps mentioning a lot) if the limiting factor is the cathode? Thanks for you videos
Because it's not a hard limiting factor. It's diminishing returns.
@@thelimitingfactor If capacity is 10 times higher per gm for anode I was thinking any return you would get by reducing anode weight is capped at 10%? I am sure I am misunderstanding something :(
@@mramk The image I used while I was speaking illustrates exactly how it works. I'm not sure how you're thinking about it. That doesnt' make sense to me. Batteries have about 7 components. You have to look at the effect on the entire battery. For example:
If you cut the weight of the anode in half, that 1/14 improvement (just throwing numbers out). If you halve that again, it's a 1/28th improvement....diminishing returns.
I can't explain it further than this.
Next video about silicon nanowires?
Lol, not yet, but it will be about silicon
Elon just twittered no silicon nanowires will be used in the roadrunner battery
@@fanbeen00 Can you provide a link to the tweet? I don't see it.
I bet nvx:asx jumps up tomorrow because of this video.
I hope so :)
I don't even need to watch this :D synthetic 100%
Except cost.
@@rogerstarkey5390 Untrue. This may have been the case but the performance gain in AG is worth the extra 5-10 cents / kg cost.
Lol, I hear ya. Graphite will be with us for a LONG time. 100% Si is at least 5 years away at scale.
@@thelimitingfactor The issue then becomes technology change advances. I feel that the pure silicon anodes are a pipe dream. New technologies (anode free or lithium metal) will become reality faster than pure Si can get off the ground. The battle for Si may already be lost, though there are some interesting companies raising a lot of capital in the Si space. The concern is that the 100% Si tech will be "skipped" over for more attractive energy density solutions.
@@heavensentlol 😀 It may be use cases depending. For example, lithium metal for energy storage and Si for VTOL. I hope to clarify this soon. The more chemistry choices we have, the better.
Can you grow single crystal graphite anode artificially? Seems carbon processing on the atomic level is industry’s future challenge.
Tesla are using a mix of Graphite and Silicon. They are trying to increase the Silicon, but it expands and contracts too much, 100% Silicon would be the highest energy density if you can get around the expansion and contaction issue.
Exacto!
Might as well get a PhD
Lol, true words!
subscribed
Good man! Welcome aboard.
Investment: NMG vs Talga vs Novonix?
I feel like Novonix might lose just because they are valued so high already. Almost 10x the market cap of the other 2.
Yeah, NVX is too rich for my blood. Some big shoes to fill.
@@thelimitingfactor which of the other 2 do you like more
At these prices, I don't like anything. I stopped buying a year ago. I only go for 10x to 20x on mining stocks because they are always a game of Russian roulette.
Talga or NMG might do that, but I'm not buying. But, that's me.
Goodonyah
Jordan.
Confirmation of what the "cryptic picture" is from last week. ("Nanowires" etc).
Elon just confirmed it by tweet.
If you have a laserprinter/ copier look at the paper exit.
Above the rollers you should see a foil strip with filaments to discharge static.
Now imagine that stuck to the edge of a sheet of paper (filaments off the edge)
Roll it up so the strip forms concentric circles.
You now effectively have a "brush".
That's what the picture depicts.
It's the discharge "brush" connection at the top of the would jellyroll.
Contacts the top terminal of the cell.
Confirms tabless electrode, lower resistance, etc.
(Probably high sustained charge rate)
You really should be working for Tesla. Your visualisation and ability to grasp concepts is par excellence.
@@thelimitingfactor
Not in *your* league man!
Elon gave the clue in a tweet.
"........We were too obtuse for our own good, although I think it works esthetically. Those are folded-over current collectors at the top/bottom of the cell, which are important, but I don’t want to jump the gun on Sept 22 …...."
At which point I realised I'd being dealing with similar for many years.
I think it will resemble the bristles of a brush (think old school shaving brush) with a square/ flat cut.
With the anode, separator and cathode offset vertically, one will contact the top terminal plate, the other will contact the bottom.
👍
Won't this be rendered irrelevant by Silicon Nano wire Anodes and Cathodes?
Not likely. I don't think Tesla will do nanowires
As usual you make a brilliant video but why bash China on one hand and then except the USA uses coke to produce graphite!! Also why are they not using graphene, way more surface area.
It's a fact that Chinese products are produced in ways that are more polluting. This isn't an opinion. Do the products from the US and Europe also pollute: Yes, but orders of magnitude less.
Surface area is always a tade off decision: Cycle life vs power density.
Graphene is too expensive and doesn't improve energy density. This is covered in the graphene video.
@@thelimitingfactor cheers for reply... Can you send link to the the Chinese and American production of these products... Where is the data... I can't find it. Regards to graphene I have to bow to your knowledge because I can find no other way to find out this type of information any other way... Again huge Thx I'm a huge fan of yours and have learnt so much...
@@tatradak In this video series I tried to avoid 'bashing' China. There will be a video in the future providing a balanced view. There were two examples in this series of pollution: 65% coal fired power plants and lack of wastewater treatment (they dump untreated water into streams in many places). They are working hard on both, but unfortunately as a developing country (just like every other country that went through this phase) that can't both grow and have high environmental standards. The exception will be Africa, which is developing in a post fossil fuel world.
@@thelimitingfactor I get where you are coming from and always appreciate a balanced view.... I have never been to USA but I have been to China in the industrial heart land and waste water law since 2016 is strickly enforced but I will come back to you with proof.... But your right there is always law breakers on both sides and probably more from the other!! 🤣 👍