Some context I want to add regarding the Rite of Annulment in Act 3: During Act 3, prior to the Chantry explosion, you learn from Knight-Lieutenant Karras that Meredith had already requested permission for the Rite of Annulment from Divine Justinia. She was just waiting for permission. The only thing Anders caused her to do was act before hearing back.
5:02 Iron Bull to the Bull Chargers Healer: "The healing potions you make are fantastic, but they taste terrible!" Healer: "That's because its a poultice, ser. You put in on the wound, you're not supposed to drink it."
A good way to understand the fear of magic as a spectator is given by David Gaider in his interview with SuperRAD, paraphrasing: "In D&D a 1st level mage could cast Charm Person on you, that means for the next few hours that mage for you is your best friend, the one you trust the most, that alone is scary, and it only gets worse the higher the level", Gaider didn't like how magic was treated in dnd settings, more like another tool in the arsenal, rather than the scary thing it actually is and that is reflected in Dragon Age, it's a core part of the setting. As for myself I understand why most ttrpgs and their setting treat magic this way, they want to be a theme park for the player to have fun in it, but thanks to man who asked himself "what if we really think about it for a moment" we have a marvelous setting that makes us ponder and discuss still today. The only critique I can give to the DA games is that they don't represent correctly how they want the mages to be scary sometime, especially from a player prospective, you pick fireball as a spell 'cause it's fun, but in reality you became a walking siege weapon that can kill multiple people with a hand wave, were most other people have a sword in their hands. Even further, as a player mage, you don't get the constant risk of demonic tentation and/or possession you hear and see happen all around you, at least not in a way any other class can. That's one of the reason people didn't like the shift to more action oriented combat starting from DA2, if characters start doing flips and jumps around the battlefield, this whole dilemma comes weaker, as the "average person" becomes more and more superhuman.
@@leonardobattistel4595 watched and loved SuperRAD’s video a couple months ago, amazing that he got Gaider in for a large chunk of the video to interview.
I think the problem with mages is kinda the same problem X-men had. Yeah Mages are people and therefore deserve to be treated like one, but also mages are an atomic bomb of potential.
Except we almost never see the average fighter in Dragon Age. Inquisition has the most "normal fighters" in the way of Inquisition soldiers and the time Blackwall conscripted some villagers. Normal as none of them have a specialization to speak of. Everyone else has been Rogues with alchemy, assassins, reavers, templar's/rogue templar's, berserkers, avvar. All of these types are not normal by any stretch of the word. They drink lyrium. They do blood magic rituals with dragons blood to turn themselves into a non-spirit based abomination. These kind of people make sense in not being as pressed by mages, especially when two of three of the classes I mentioned are specifically designed to hunt mages and magical beings.
@@RazielTheUnborn As far as I'm concerned thoes are the avarage fighters in dragon age. The other problem with how Gaiden wants magic to be dangerous is. Ok mind altering magic is conceptually scary, but so are getting drugged, same result, magic doesn't make it inherently scarrier. But DA often pretends it does.
@@i.cs.z But someone trying to drug or poison someone has to get the poison where its going. They need to physically bring it with them, and like any weapon, it can be discovered. A mage doesn't need to bring anything. At any point they could hold their hands out and the room explodes. You might shake a random person's hand one day and they cast walking bomb on you. There's some pretty messed up spells in this game that I definitely take fighting a dude with a sword over.
Gonna have to correct you regarding Merrill. She knew she was putting herself in danger, and ahe took precautions. It's why in Act 3 she brings Hawke and the gang along, so she can be put down if she ends up possessed. The problem was that her Keeper and the clan were so terrified of what she MIGHT do with her power, that they repeatedly broke themselves trying to get away from her or stop her. Pol ran headlong into the Varterral, and the Keeper let the demon possess HER before Merrill could interact with it again. Which is in line with what mages in general suffer. People hate and mistreat them as a whole because of what they MIGHT do, and create a self-fulfilling prophecy.
interesting perspective, i do have the opinion that Merrill probably would have been possessed by the demon, but I guess we will never know in the end right.
@@davidnewman1456 Maybe she would have. But then the damage would have been contained to herself. I reiterate, she took every measure to keep her actions from hurting them. She left the clan entirely, she took the Blighted eluvian with her... The clan was so determined to prove their fear and mistrust of her right, that they got their own selves hurt. They shouldn't have even stuck around Kirkwall that long, they're nomadic, Flemeth's amulet had already been delivered, and Kirkwall was templar central.
@@WanderingRagabondIn DA2 I believe the Sabrae Clan are stuck in Sundermount because their Halla died during the Blight. (I could be wrong, I just remember there was mention of the Halla being dead therefore the clan was immobile.
@@funky7692 Yes, when you go there in Act 3 for Merril's quest, one of them can say they're hoping to hear from another clan willing to give them Halla.
Agreed. Merrill is a unique situation where arguably more harm was done by the fear of what could happen with what she was doing then what was actually done.
Adding on, there's the subtext that Anders portrays himself as the responsible mage while constantly berating Merrill for her blood magic, saying shes going too far to achieve her goals, that she will cause problems for all mages, and that she will end up possessed. Meanwhile, Merrill is initially portrayed as reckless and dangerous, but actually takes precautions, never means to do anyone wrong, and can actually learn from her actions and their consequences.
@@Saitken Anders is very largely hypocritical, which I think works for his character. In the end he was FAR more dangerous to the mages and everyone in general than Merrill or any blood mage in DA2. It’s interesting how Anders and Meredith can both be classed this way.
@@SuRaXGaming Some of Meredith's danger came from her position of authority. Anders did everything he did without a position of authority. Imagine if Anders had rank in addition to everything else...
@ Yea Anders would’ve been a lot of trouble at the head of a Mage rebellion (or force of any kind). There definitely would be radicalist mages who agree with Anders, and it’s for the best they never ended up in a room together.
I get what you're saying about taking precautions, but Anders was right about her getting possessed. She would have been possessed by the pride demon if her keeper didn't intervene and sacrifice herself.
@@SuRaXGaming Didn't Merrill get her whole clan killed with blood magic? She was terrible, you are right that she does learn her lesson (which Anders is pathologically incapable of), but she was incredibly arrogant until far too late, and hated my Hawke because he didn't enable her.
Some corrections: Blood Magic doesnt actually require Demons to acquire, but most Mages end up learning it from demons due to the Chantry burning most books regarding Blood Magic, IIRC. In fact Blood Magic tends to be very effective in binding/controlling Demons so it is ironic that people learn it from Demons... Knight-Commander Meredith actually starts the game fairly reasonable(like a scene of her arguing against tranquiling a mage who didnt do much but leave for a bit IIRC, later in the game she would have Tranquiled/Killed them without question for similar acts) but a central plot element drives her towards madness and extremism. And she has PERSONAL TRAGEDY regarding letting Mages roam free(her sister was a Mage and not given to the Circle because the her and her family loved her and didnt want to send her away. Something happened and her Sister became an abomination who killed Meredith's parents IIRC) which is why she was strict in the first place. And a easily missable lore tidbit reveals Kirkwall(which was built by Blood Magic-abusing Old Tevinter) was built in the shape of a rune/gylph used for Blood Magic Rituals and the blood of slaves was used to power SOMETHING there. But without Blood Mages, the rune seems to be nudging people toward violent conflict more than any other city of similar size. I know you focused on Dragon Age 2 but Origins touched upon just WHY mages and Blood Magic specifically are feared/prejudiced against in Thedas. The largest Empire(IIRC compared to the height of the Roman Empire) the world has seen so far was Old Tevinter who used Blood Magic to conquer most of the continent. Until the Chantry and their Templars figured out Anti-Magic and drove them into their current more Byzantine/Holy Roman Empire sized territory. Mages STILL rule Tevinter and they STILL practice Slavery, and Blood Magic is STILL LEGAL there. Fenris is literally a horror story of what a Mage will do to his slaves for research purposes. Essentially Mages were synonymous with Oppressors for a good stretch of history and the Chantry ensure no one will ever forget it. though as bad as the Chantry are to mages, they arent that great to their Templars either. They make them addicted to consuming Lyrium to keep them under their control. Hence that horrible situation in Inquisition. Have you see the Netflix animated Dragon Age series? it deals with Current Tevinter a lot. I enjoyed it even if it wasn't the best. And one scene where they have their Tal-Vashoth Mage pick up a bunch of supplies for their Heist(yes it is a Heist plot, robbing a Tevinter Magister! I actually liked this aspect!) she bluffs the shopkeeper by saying it is all for some Magister and his Blight-Shelter because he is paranoid that the world is currently overdue for another Blight of Darkspawn. Tangent: the above scene in the Dragon Age cartoon inspired me to create(well Outline) a fantasy setting where the various Dungeons of the world were once the Doomsday Prepper Bunkers for High Elves until they figured out a Demiplane made a better End of the World Shelter and perfected that. Monster ecosystems inside are occasionally accidental but a lot of them were intentional self-perpetuating security systems to keep the Young Races from raiding their bunkers. I include this specifically because I believe not everything has be the Best Thing Ever to still be enjoyed/inspire creativity. Unfortunately I cannot find it in myself to be hyped for Veilguard due to a number of things the devs have said/confirmed about the game. In particular, removing Blood Magic yet again(i know it was not in Inquisition but you are the de-facto head of a group with ties to the Chantry, they barely tolerate a Mage-Inquisitor much less a Blood Mage one) seems like a bad move to me, judging from previous games where blood magic was extremely effective at managing Spirits/demons so a game called "Veilguard" not employing seems odd. But the devs have also said something along the lines of not wanting to have too many returning characters because it was boring or something along those sentiments... then ended up revealing they made ZEVRAN of all people King of Antiva because... they liked his name and forgot who he was. Another thing is i doubt they'd give an answer to wtf happened to Anders since DA 2 and i am DIRELY curious as to his fate. I could list more but my comment is already long reaching TL:DR levels All these details may not bother you but they add up to sounding like I, personally, would be annoyed trying to play it. I hope everyone who buys it feels their money was well spent, though!
Just saying, that Zevran story is not true. I played the game and the only mention of Zevran is by Lucanis who calls Zevrans old crow house cowards and that they were shamed in Antiva later after Origins.
Meredith was never readonable, ok this usn't in the game, but in WoT, but just look up what she did with the previous ruler of Kirkwall. She was allways like that, she was just better at keeping a mask on.
I side with the mages because if oppression like that of Kirkwall is not only possible but tolerated, then the entire system is flawed. If they let a Circle exist in the Gallows, instead of relocating it to Wycome(one of the only city-state lacking a Circle) once the anomalous level of death and possession was discovered, or even dismantling it and sending all its surviving Mages to the nearby Ostwick, Markham or even Ansburg Circles, shows the Chantry cares more about punishing mages for their Original Sin than safekeeping children born with magic. Especially after the Starkhaven Circle was burnt down as preparation for an assassination of the Vale dynasty, and instead of relocating the refugees to the robust Ostwick Circle they were sent to the volatile Gallows. That being said: 1. Meredith is so hard on mages because she experienced the flip side herself. Her sister was an apostate, a child who had magic but was hidden from the circle, and because of that a demon invaded her dreams, turned her into an abomination and they killed her own family save Meredith herself, who became a Chantry orphan before opting into its Templar Order. 2. Specifically in Kirkwall, mages are dealt an atrociously evil hand, as the entire city is an ancient bloodbath of mass human sacrifice meant to tear open the Veil to the Fade. This means demons can just squeeze in wily-nily and invade any mage they see fit UNLESS that mage has tremendous willpower. It's why a third of Circle apprentices fail their Harrowing(trial-by-fire) and another either third or half are made Tranquil instead, only the best of mages in the city get to stay living mages. It's why the distinction between apostate and maleficar is nonexistent, since anyone not guarded is aggressively peddled blood magic and possession by demons, like rats stuck in a dull, hostile cage and drug-laced water. Add to that Corypheus's presence under the mountains, further bleeding invasive thoughts into Kirkwall in general and mages in particular. In Ferelden, the Templars are also strict but they aren't overzealous. Any mage who passed their Harrowing is given the benefit of doubt, and mages like Anders are repeatedly captured with little more than more stringent imprisonment. In many Orlesian and Nevarran circles the containment only applies after the Harrowing, and once a mage is deemed safe enough not to be at risk for abomination or blood magic, they can simply physically leave the Circle while remaining a Circle mage. 3. If innocence is proven beyond shadow of a doubt, the Kirkwall Templars prior to the catalyst DO use chains rather than the axe. The best example is Bethany Hawke, a lifelong apostate who was trained by a runaway Circle mage, and for all intents and purposes lives as a normal person who happens to cast a few spells to help her non-mag sibling feed their family. Once said sibling goes on a long expedition and the apostate corners, she surrenders peacefully, puts through the Harrowing which she passes, and is all but instantly given the Enchanter rank to train other apprentices to resist demons as she has managed without the resources of the Circle.
Cassandra in DAI flat out says that the Seekers knew of Knight-Commander Meredith's abuses long ago but they deemed them acceptable on account of the city's (Cassandra's words here) 'magical corruption'. Honestly, this short piece of dialogue told me all I needed to know about the Chantry's system - It's meant to punish mages.
@@Billpro25 Precisely. DAI solidified my pro-mage stance beyond the shadow of doubt, even with Cassandra and Vivienne caping for the Templars that hard. I get that Corypheus's influence was a secret, but surely the Seekers knew about The Bone Pit? That blood magic and human sacrifice re literally etched to the walls and pavement of Kirkwall? In the DA universe it's unsafe for such a city to stand, let alone run a MAGE BOARDING SCHOOL PRISON INSIDE THE OLD SLAVE QUARTERS. How can anyone excuse having a Circle THERE but not in WYCOME! It's why I always try to make Leliana Divine Victoria - Leliana, who was aided by Sketch, who debated Morrigan the Witch of the Wilds and saw her for who she is(an edgy girl trying to measure up to her own myth), followed the Warden as they cooperated with the Mages' Collective, an assortment of self-policing apostates who's only moral ambiguity was fueling a Templars' addiction, something they never would have needed to do had they not been criminalized. No wonder that same Leliana dissolves the Circle and allows Mages(as ell as nonhuman nonmages) in the Chantry.
As I understood the Circles have some inner autonomy. Templars always watching and seeking blood mages, apostates, corrupt mages etc. out and within the Circles, but the ranks and resources of the Circle managed by the mages themselves, so it wasn’t the wise templars who saw Bethanys experience and put her in the enchanter rank to train acolytes, it was Orsino or his mage underlings
@@Elite_Tauren_Chieftain The "inner autonomy" is beholden to the wills of the Templars. In Montsimmard it's all but absolute, while in Kirkwall it barely exists. In Bethany's case it was the Templars who decreed she be taken in peacefully as a Circle mage instead of being cut down on the spot or made Tranquil. Meredith dictates who the Viscount is, I don't have a shred of doubt that she control s who gets to be and stay a Mage and who gets to rise to the rank of Enchanter. And Bethany, a devout Andrastian who chose to hide in a hovel like a little girl instead of frying up Darkspawn on her way to getting rich and politically untouchable, is better than an embittered lifelong Circle mage.
Depents of the place Since in the fereldan circle ALL mages go out to join the army because the grand enchanter said so, while the templar stay in the circle to rebuild
I managed to convince Fenris to join the mages by having him as a nearly maxed friend. Sure, he abandoned me first, but once I pointed out to him that he's against slavery, he rejoined me and my entire party stood against the templars
I miss Mark Darrahs days in Bioware. He is the mastermind behind these great stories and intricate dilemmas. I am sure he can come up with a smart solution for it all if given the opportunity.
@@marcomongke3116 unfortunately a lot of the classic BioWare team are no longer around, which is fair enough for them so long as they left on good terms, but it’s unfortunate so many key players have moved on from the series.
@leonardobattistel4595 I dont know much, but considering how David Gaider reacts against some of the old fans and approves of Veilguard narratives, I starting to question the legitimacy and talent of the writers there. Perhaps he and likes of him were uplifted and pampered by political messaging and leniency. What do you think?
@@marcomongke3116 I think I was misunderstood, or I didn't answer properly, what I meant to say is that Darrah was not the mind behind the dilemmas and the stories, the writers were, surely since he was directing he had input in those, but he doesn't have a writer background, he was a programmer at Bioware before directing, what I want to say is to not put all the merit into one person, a lot of of talented people where behind those situation that you mentioned, Darrah alone won't give you those.
Mike Laidlaw, btw, not Mark Darrah. Judging by Mark Darrah's comments towards Origins on his own youtube channel, I'm not sure if he was the one responsible for how great Origins really was.
@@zacharycayer3234 god I miss the healing mage meta from Origins. At least Anders had some healing spells aside from the default heal spell in 2, but gone completely after :(
Something that baffles me every time someone talks about this is the moment where folks seem to imply that Elthina was an innocent victim here. Thing is, she isn't. She's the Grand Cleric of the local chantry, she's the most powerful figure (locally) of the same chantry that empowers the templars at every turn. She might be acting the peacekeeper but her inaction lets Meredith crush mages more and more to the point that they were going to annul the mage circle, Anders or not. Anders did the only thing he could, he gave mage everywhere a reason to fight instead of letting them wallow in a status quo that would inevitably crush them at some point.
100%. anders spent seven years in darktown healing refugees (for free!) and elthina had gold gilded statues at the chantry. she isnt an innocent bystander, she is actively okay with the status quo and her "inaction" is only the active choice of preserving it. kingdom of conscience type character: "Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded. Centrism isn't change -- not even incremental change. It is *control*. Over yourself and the world. Exercise it. Look up at the sky, at the dark shapes of Coalition airships hanging there. Ask yourself: is there something sinister in moralism? And then answer: no. God is in his heaven. Everything is normal on Earth." (-quote from disco elysium)
Orsino supplied forbidden knowledge to Quentin, he also didn't tell anyone he was working with him. This is the person who ruthlessly murdered women and desecrated their corpses. He learned the harvester magic from Quentin, he probably also taught the kirkwall circle blood magic.
My feelings about Anders are complex, not only because of his controversial actions, but because his writer made some very problematic choices for him that have never sat well with me. She said she wrote him to be bipolar (or a fantastical equivalent) and that his Friendship/Rivalry paths were essentially designed to be "be kind and compassionate to him and you'll make him more delusional and coddle his mental illness" or "be cruel to him and he'll be more depressed but less delusional" which is... not great, as a mental health allegory. He also contradicts himself at multiple points whether or not Justice/Vengeance has a mind of his own, its own separate thoughts and feelings, or if they are completely merged as one. It even goes so far as to imply in the Rival path that you've convinced Anders not to go through with his plans, only for Vengeance to take over his body, leaving him completely unaware of what just happened after regaining control. The implication there is that Vengeance will make this happen regardless of Anders' wishes, even though immediately after the Chantry's destruction he'll go back to saying they are of one mind. His mutual hatred with Fenris is so overplayed to the point where they programmed him to approve of giving Fenris back to his master, even though that is entirely out of character as both a man who spent his entire life running away from captivity AND as a literal embodiment of justice. As his role is so central to the story of DA2, serving as a primary figure in the arguments for and against the abuse, oppression, and murder of mages...it really is a shame that he was not better written. He's one of my favorite characters, yet is weighted down by the flaws that could have been smoothed out if DA2 had more time to refine their writing.
I think they're meant to be in the process of becoming one person, or Anders is just deluding himself to deal with the trauma of what vengeance just did
I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU!! Holy shit, you have no idea how great it is to see more people that have looked in to this more than just by labeling Anders a monster and calling it a day. For seven YEARS anders was surrounded by people either telling him he's fucking crazy or not acknowledging the madness surrounding him on a daily basis. Neither Varric or Isabela have the SPINE to say what's happening with the mages is despicable and it really feels like he's being utterly isolated should your hawke choose to go against him. He had to kill his lover after finding him tranquil, of COURSE the man is losing it and unraveling. I genuinely can't stand his writer for what she did to him. Apparently she based him off an ex of hers and put a lot of hate in to him. It wasn't fair. Anders could have been a better version of eren from attack on titan had his writer been of the right mind. It's disappointing that he's been reduced to just a crazy terrorist. It reminds me of how black people are treated in America when they riot.
Justice and Anders story is rather well played out, and it highlights the message of Spirits and Demons. A Demon is born when the mission of a Spirit is perverted or denied to it, Justice was a Spirit but Vengeance is him having become a Demon. Anders is a unique Abomination, but nonetheless an Abomination.
Justice was never justice, but vengeance all along. His views in Awakenings were always of the "eye for an eye" type, which is not what real justice is. I didn't realize it until I replayed it after DA2.
There ARE some cures to abominations in lore tho. Mainly in DAO you manage to free Connor by either dealing with or killing the demon possessing him in the Fade. Then again, at that point, the demon didn't morph Connor's body into anything different. Marethari does explain in DA2 that this cure is risky and it always leave some sequels on the possessed' soul.
An interesting video, but with a bit of a "both sides are wrong" problem, in my opinion. Anders was absolutely right in his beliefs, and didn't "prove" anything, he accelerated what would have happened anyway (yes, killing innocents is horrible, no I don't support his act, but I do think I can understand it). Templar's actions are basically the equivalent of kicking a dog every day to prevent it from biting someone, and when one day that dog flips completely and not only bites but kills someone, they say that proves it, and that they either should have kicked harder or should have killed the dog outright. With a system rigged from the beginning, Orsino's efforts (and the efforts of Anders when he was a pacifist) were bound to fail. The Templar institution needed to have a conscience for that to happen. They didn't.
To make any examination of the Thedas Mage conflict that ignores Old Tevinter and the Ancient Elves will be missing massive amounts of context. The Andrastean Chantry was created in large part as a reaction to the Tevinter Magisters and their unmitigated creulty. Sacrifice lives in the thousands on little more than just a whim. Even in the modern more "civilized" Tevinter a magister might go and by a slave, cut their throat, and use their blood for a dazzling enchantment at tonights party as easily as one might buy a pig to roast and feed the guests. The fear of mages is more than just paranoia. Is it even possible to have a society where your only guarantee the mage down the block won't take over your mind and make you do whatever he wants just that _he doesn't really feel like it?_ Orsino is referencing the reaserch of a man who kills your mother in DA2 and cuts off her head to make her into a corpse sex doll. Not because of oppression or desperation but essentially _just to see if he can._ Her life is a toy. Even if you've been helping Orsino all game he felt no need to inform you he kept that reaserch, let alone was studying it. In Veilguard where one powerful mage is able to unilaterally kill everyone on the planet just because he decided the benefits were worth the cost? Should any one person have that much power? That's what I think makes Dragon Age special. Looking at the conflict as "mages are oppressed and need to rise up," is too simplistic. The story isn't about magic or muggles. It's about Power and the cycles that power creates. The Tevinter mages oppressed the unmagical which led to the Chantey and templars. The Templars oppressed the mages which led to Anders. Anders isn't like the Templars , He IS the Templars. He and Meridith use all the exact same words, the same motives, eventhe same mitigating factor of a magical outside source they took in for power radically destabalizing their mindstate. "Maybe what I'm doing is harsh. Maybe it's even cruel. Maybe it'll even hurt innocents but it had to be done. It's the only way. There can be no compromise." Like Sera says in Inquisition from the veiw of the person on the street a templar and a mage don't seem any different. Whether it's a sword, a sovereign, a sermon, or a staff, the power of domination leads to corruption, then vengence, then a new domination.
That's one of my biggest gripes with Inquisition. Throughout the entire trilogy, the mage v templar conflict is set up perfectly. Instead of taking the ending to the most logical conclusion, it goes in a different direction with Corypheus, and the mage templar war takes a backseat. It would have been so much more rewarding those years of development culminating in one big game.
Fighting for the rights of marginalized groups is _not_ counter-intuitive to the plight of the common, middle-to-low class person. The fight for basic rights is universal, not exclusionary Saying otherwise is just standard fascist dogwhistle to create division among oppressed groups
Something to note in DA2 is that Orsino is in full contact with the serial-killing necromancer. It turns out that Meredith was right to distrust the mages, and Orsino would likely have led them all into madness and blood magic. The problem is that we get very little interaction with Orsino due to the game’s rushed development.
Thats what makes it great: having two extreme and awful choices and having to choose nontheless. You can wish for an extreme society where you keep mages caged like animals like how the Qunari do, and face the risk of one escaping and causing havoc - one of the Arishok's mages escapes and destroys a human village and a whole dalish camp - or you can wish for a society where mages are free and tge dangers of blood magic are taught and known and still have bad people doing bad things causing chaos and gruesome murders. In DA, mages are here to stay, and to keep people safe and free, there are scant solutions.
I feel like this essay is missing a huge plot point: Meredith's actions in the latter parts of DA2 (including the Rite of Annulment) were made under the unknowing influence of red lyrium. Like Varric's brother, it drove her to be cruel, paranoid, and eventually insane; to the point where the templars hesitate to obey her orders, and actually help you fight against her as the final boss if you side with them. Unlike what the video might heavily imply, most templars (even the ones in Kirkwall) aren't loonies waiting to gonk mages at the drop of a hat. A few of them are, but most of them are more like jaded prison guards than ravenous extremists. Even the more zealous templars are often shown to have a good reason for being that way: in DA1, 2, and 3 we see mages (both circle and apostate) encounter difficulties great and small, and pull out blood magic and demons like it ain't no thing almost every time. "Oh no, I got a hangnail, time to bargain with a pride demon!" As inhumane as the templars can be (and sometimes are), we as players are shown over and over why mages need to be painted with that broad, overly-cautious brush. A mage that's possessed can do ungodly amounts of carnage before being brought down, and that power is seemingly always in reach, calling to all mages and waiting for a moment of weakness. I personally believe the writing always skews a little too far in making mages too much of a threat, rather than a "both sides have a point" situation Bioware was trying for.
Digging through the codex and taking the time to talk to certain people about Meredith still paints a very unflattering picture. Meredith has ALWAYS been dangerous and a little unstable. Even though you don’t even get to see what she looks like until the end of Act 2, her paranoia and ruthlessness hangs heavy over the events of the 1st act. Thrask was one of the first big warning signs the player got about how Meredith is a tyrant and resorts to violence over dialogue. In the first act, a group of mages from Ferelden who had been on their way to Kirkwall’s circle manage to escape and fortify themselves in a cave. Meredith orders their immediate execution. Thrask finds the mage hideout first, and you can chose to either help him protect the mages, or you can go in and take them all down. If you protect them, upon emerging from the cave more templars arrive. Thrask will TRY to reason with them, but it devolves into a fight. Thrask and Hawke leave no survivors and thus keep Thrask betrayal of the order a secret for the time being. The red lyrium didn’t change her personality, it simply amplified it.
I'd agree with you if not for the fact Vivienne when finding out Cole mercy killed mages threw the blame for the entire mage rebellion on him. She balantly ignores the fact the compassion spirit that was Cole only manifested in the circle tower because mages were being locked up, tortured, and left to starve in cells by templars for no just reason. They weren't at risk and it was just corruption and abuse of power by templars
DA2 is my favourite DA game, because female sarcastic Hawke is just another level, plus it has Varric. I like DA2 because it's not about end of the world scenarios, but politics and social problems and conflicts . I find those often to be the more interesting stories. Though admittedly, DAO despite being end of the world, had some really great social conflicts and intrigues too. Apart from the rushed ending - Orsino wasn't supposed to become an abomination, when Hawke sides with the mages and Anders handling was stupid: why would our local religious zealot Sebastian blame Hawke for not killing Anders, when the two authorities, who could do that, Aveline and Meredith, are standing right there? - and the reused dungeons, I really enjoyed DA2 and the dlcs.
I put the reused dungeon maps as meta for Varric narrating the story. As a surface dwarf, he probably would quip that all dungeons look alike to him. There’s a path, and there are rocks, and plenty of spiders or corpses walking about.
One thing I always was curious about in regards to Magic and mages in DA is a line Solas brings up in inquisition. He states that a result of the veil is a effect similar to the rite of tranquility. Apparently in the 'pre-veil' time people's emotions and spiritual connection with..........everything was......MORE. According to Solas, him living in the modern day world would be like a average person in this world living in a world with a bunch of Tranquil. I don't see this really brought up again but it would be a interesting concept to explore, the personality of people before the veil vs the people of the present with them appearing akin to 'tranquil' to people like Solas.
The biggest flaw that the mages have in the series is that most of the wizards you encounter in the 4 games + DLCs turn into demons, blood magic or unleash worse things into the world. Out of the companions and main characters only a few of them like the warden, Finn, the inquisitor and Vivienne are mages that come from a circle (Although the warden can use blood magic at some point). The others are a collection of apostates, maleficariums and abominations with the ones in DA2 being particulary bad.
Now this i've got to hear, but in the context of the lore, I love the magic system of Thedas. Sure, you can fire-lighting out your crack, BUT you are also vulnerable to be possessed by a demon and become a walking war crime. I love the dynamic of being all-powerful, but the ever-constant threat that a demon can whisper in your ear that, maybe, exploding everyone in your town would be pretty rad. Ultimately, because of all this, the Mages being either oppressed, or in the case of Tevinter, be the oppressors. You got two dynamics going on in Thedas, of two extremes.
You raised great points about Dragon Age 2 and its brewing conflict between the mages and templars. I'm of the opinion that Dragon Age 2 was better written in retrospect than how it was initially perceived upon launch. And it's why I'm loathed to try and rank Origins, 2, and Inquisition in order of what was best or worse. Because each game changes radically each installment, the idea of which dragon age game is best is just dependent on... well, what are you after? Origins is a definite classic, Inquisition is an epic (albeit overwhelming and a bit bloated) of the 2010s games, but DA2? I've enjoyed it as a self-contained, small-scale story, where you're not playing as a character of your own making, but as an established, in-universe character you're taking the mantle of. DA2 definitely suffered from its comparisons to Origins, because you went from "saving the world from the blight" to "petty political squabbles in a squalor of a town". But I liked how it set the scene with its worldbuilding with how magic has influenced the ideology in this world and how characters approach magic and those who wield it. It's been a while since I played DA2, so I can't remember if I had taken a more damning view with Anders compared to how I think you managed, but in retrospect, I think the Kirkwall Chantry should've exercised more restraint upon the templars. I don't know if I remember correctly, but the Chantry could be seen as more complicit with the templar's poor treatment of the mages, and Anders would've seen it that way. And it's not too far removed from today's politics where if you're viewed (as a public figure or a political figure) as not taking an active stand, you're complicit with (insert such and such here). And yes, there are so many nuances attached to that that people overlook in the heat of righteous indignation. Back to DA2, I think I remember letting Anders live and fight alongside my Hawke to atone for his crimes (because I was loathed to kill a companion in that moment). Sided with the mages. Fenris joined the templars. But because my Hawke friendship-romanced Fenris, Fenris switched to the mages in the end, so, luckily I wasn't forced to off him either. EDIT; And yes, I'm so looking forward to The Veilguard.
@@artbycarloangelo I agree 100%. I’m of the opinion if DA2 wasn’t rushed out the door by EA and given the time to cook it deserved it would’ve been truly fantastic. The story is all there and super complex, it doesn’t matter if it’s of a smaller scale because the story works and still has major impacts on the series. Glad you enjoyed the video! You raise some great points as well!
I feel like the second half of da2 is where the story really kicks in, and you start to realise the massive implications of the game on the world. But I gotta say that first quest where you basically do a bunch of side quests to get 50 gold together and go to the mines really made the first part of the game so slow and feel super inconsequential. Super good writing tho, and I found myself really seeing both sides of the templars and mages right. I definitely sided with the mages in the end tho aha, kinda identified with the mages more than templars.
@@davidnewman1456 now take my words with a grain of salt, as DA2 is my favorite. But I think that 1st part checks out. You start as a refugee. Why should anyone acknowledge you? The first part, is your character building connections from the ground up. A real rag to Riches narrative. The story would be dramatically different, and with different companions, if Hawke just started living in the manor off rip.(Why would a free marches noble ever be caught being seen in the undercity for example)
@ yea I definitely get what they were trying to do, but I feel like there is better ways to do that then a bunch of go her fetch that or kill this to demonstrate that aha. I did love DA2 really no hate to the game, I think it’s very underrated.
For all its flaws, DA2 respected player choice and meaningful decisions with actual consequences best. Dealing with the Arishok, the fate of Bethany/Carver, Merrills eluvian, Isabella and the slaver ship, siding with Sister Petrice, deciding what to do with Anders after the chantry explosion. You almost need a wall chart to keep track of your choices and how they impact the story
I do understand why the mages needed to be somewhat watched they do wield unbelievable power but the templars basically locking them away like animals and treating them as such didn't help and then were surprised when they demanded freedom and stop being treated like monsters
That is what a lot of people sympathetic to mages point out. The Templars treat them like prisoners, render them tranquil or even slaughter them because they feel that giving mages even a bit of freedom will lead to a second Tevinter. So many mages decide to become everything they fear and create a society with themselves on top because it has to be better than what they've got at the moment. And if the Templars and the Chantry showed some kindness and leniency, then the Mage-Templar War might've never happened.
Before watching video: I dislike that many people in fandom treat mages as this "misunderstood minority" similar to ours in irl life But last time I checked misunderstood minorities weren´t throwing 3000 degree fireballs and turning into ultrademons
To paraphrase the Infamous series " a normal person has a bad day they wrap their car around a tree, a person with powers have a bad day the death toll reaches the double digits
@@Keram-io8hv Congrats, you are easily susceptible to fascist propaganda I bet you'd say the Federation in Starship Troopers are in the right because their enemies are giant bugs
There does seem to be reference in Origins at least that mages can be part of a circle and more or less travel freely in Ferelden with the first enchanters permission as long as the mage has passed the harrowing. So i dont think its fair to say mages are locked up for their entire lives necessarily.
Fenris and Anders are the extremists in the party. They're personally affected by the situation too critically to be a part of a balanced negotiation. I think it's slick, and well-animated how quickly Meredith turns from a scowl into a motherly smile when she says she's sorry and thinks there's no other way; then quickly back to a scowling, "if you got a better idea let's hear it." Textbook manipulator. Meredith wants a bubble bath and a glass of wine by 8pm, she doesn't have time for mages running around her city.
If anything Templar's in Dragon Age are far too lenient. Given that mages get their powers from the Fade, a volatile realm that is swamped with demons, & can't cast spells ex nihilo (out of nothing) regardless of the type of magic should already exclude them from civilization. Templar's are being super charitable to draw the line at blood magic & not everything else.
I love how great BioWare is at creating words and stories with so interesting and difficult moral decisions. One of the best parts of dragon age and it makes it so enjoyable and makes every decision feel so important. Great video! Fun game, not as good as origins I think but it really picks up in the second half.
I do wish you'd included more of the abuses the templars were inflicting on the mages. Tranquil are also much more docile and likely to follow commands, and the templars were absolutely taking advantage of mages made tranquil because they couldn't fight back. Not to mention if you play a female mage in origins, Cullen is like, SUPER obsessed with her, and that's terrifying. Like... as a mage you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you reject a templar trying to come onto you, they can just accuse you of possession or blood magic and have you killed or made tranquil.
The whole mage vs Templars thing never made any sense to me in DA when the solution is so simple Just have the circles of magi be schools instead of prisons where by law every magic born child has to attend a circle but are allowed to be visited and keep in contact with there families. Once a mage shows that they have the capability to control there magic then they should be allowed to leave maybe the circle could find them positions as court wizards or enchanters idk keep the Templars around as elite magic neutralizing security force that go after mages that are actually abusing there powers and lastly if a mage truly wishes it or is truly incapable of controlling there power then the rite of tranquility could be offered to them as either that or remain in the circle forever
That’s basically how Tevinter works except the templars are more just a tool by the black chantry to conduct political action. Generally speaking, the rise of mages to all powerful positions in the imperium has soured the concept to all of southern Thedas. Since magic is inherently easy to abuse against common people. The games make it look so much easier to deal with them, but you got to remember a single possession can potential kill a city. Connors possession comes to mind. Possessions can be incredibly difficult to spot too. Wynne and Anders are both abominations. They have retained more of their personalities, but it indicates demons could do the same if desired. Passing the initial trials doesn’t guarantee safety ether. Most possessions are circumstantial. Tranquility is the only sure way to prevent it, and it looks like based on DAI lore. You need to be possessed by a spirit to get fixed. So, it’s not entirely a sure thing ether
This is pretty much how things are handled in Warhammer Fantasy's Empire of Man, minus the potential of the Rite of Tranquility. That said there's only one magical school in the Empire's capital of Altdorf and only human mages go to the Imperial Colleges of Magic. The elves have their own magical training system and humanity leaves them to it, same with the lizardmen and orcs. Also, humans in WHF can only safely channel one Wind of Magic without inevitable Chaos corruption and even relatively safe use of magic caries the risk of daemonic possession or simply exploding. You have to be really skilled and disciplined with magic to avoid those risks, but Imperial wizards/elven mages are important and respected members of society, even if the official Cult of Sigmar witchhunters look at them funny.
Dragon Age 2 made a smart decision making your sister Bethany a mage, so that your decisions weren’t always gonna be so clear-cut. I was anti-mage for the most part, but Bethany showed that not all mages in Kirkwall were crazy, so I found myself being a diplomat most of the time.
tl;dr The Chantry did nothing wrong. Edgy jokes aside the story flip-flops between saying mages shouldn't be oppressed before pointing out those who distrust them have valid reason to do so (Blood magic mind control, the Tevinter Imperium, the tyrannical elven "gods", magic pretty much being a beacon for demons).
The Chantry in Kirkwall could not create peace. Elthina could barely keep Meredith in check, and should have been pushing for a new Viscount immediately after the events of Act 2. Nor could Elthina keep peace between the citizens and the Qunari, she needed Hawke to perform lip service when it should have been a joint-effort alongside the Viscount. A dagger in the dark would have been preferable, but she needed to go.
tl;dr Anders was right the whole time. SOMETHING needed to be done. The incaction of the church and enabling of the templars, the ever growing paranoia and insanity of Meredith and the overall tension between mages and templas that was brewing the entirety of the game could not be resolved peacefully. Meredith had already started on the right of Annulment regardless of Anders' actions and she was ready to throw the witches into the fire. I really don't know why people are so insistent he doomed the mages when we've seen how useless and enabling the chuch and especially Elthina has been. A neutral stance is still a stance, and when that neutrality leads to genocide then it's no better than the swords that are actually beheading innocents anyway. Anders just had the courage to do something. Fueled by rage, justice, vengeance and desperation after his lover was made tranquil, after watching the many mages he helped heal and hide be forced to turn to the blood magic he absolutely despises just to try and survive, after seeing these mages still fall to the templars swords, after hearing about the literal abuse (often times sexual) inflicted upon circle mages who couldn't say anything back lest they are slain or tranquilized. There was no solution without conflict (again, Meredith going ahead and getting the right set up prior to the bombing proves that). There was no forgiving the inaction and enabling of the church. SOMEONE needed to do something, and his justice/vengeance muddled brain and soul gave him the push he needed. What he did wasn't right, but neither was everything that was happened...and in a war, no matter how just, there will always be casulties and cruelties commited by all sides. There aren't real winners in a war, just survivors. Anders knew that and he did what he had to to survive. It's important to acknoledge that his actions shaped the entirety of the world and led to the definitive betterment of mage lives all over and even possiblity of the fall of the circle/chantry oppresive leash structure they had going on. If not for his actions the mages of Kirkwall would have all been slain for nothing and the mages would still be opressed everywhere. He could've gone about it a different way? Yes. But again, he wasn't entirely himself anymore and the story wouldn't be as shocking otherwise. At the end of the day, this is still a game. A written story. Some things are done a certain way for the shock value and that's fine. Besides a more clean and less tragic event wouldn't make the following decisions that impactul and it wouldn't be the morally grey game we know Dragon Age to be. (until Veilguard)
@@fallenprometheusExcept Anders would have gotten better results and would have had mages on his side if he blew up the Templar headquarters instead of the Chantry. He was practically protected just by being a friend of the Champion so you can't tell me he couldn't slip that bomb in the Templar headquarters
@Drums_of_Liberation My guy... there was NO TEMPLAR HEADQUARTERS. Their HQ was IN the chantry and in the circle. So yeah, he DID slip the bomb in the Templar headquarters, in a sense. Besides, from a writing standpoint, even if they tried other avenue like just the assassinating of Elthina, it would not have had that much shock value, hence why they went the bombing route.
I like how everyone ignores the elephant in the room when it comes to mage. A society with free mages is mage lead society when you look at the theadas history. I mean why wouldn’t it be mages are literally better then everyone else there no computation. I don’t know what the answer is but I know it isn’t free mages if you want a better society in the long run.
They aren't better though. I wouldn't trust Solas to run the grey wardens. I wouldn't trust Solas to run the seekers either. Being a mage doesn't make someone better. More powerful sure but in alot of cases skilled fighters regularly outpace them in combat. Sera literally kill steals from Solas with a bow.
That's just not true. Lets count societies with free mages: Ancient elves, everyone has magic so it can't really be evaluated. Banned from this list. Tevinter. One free mage society that fits the bill. Rivain: nope. Avvar: nope. Modern elves: hmm the keeper leads them, but it's ain't a magiocracy, lets give them half a point. 1.5/4 free mage societies being ruled by magic.
@ access to make make you legitimately better the most people in Thedas. Simply due to the ability that mages have access to, like healing, power, and control. Mages would easily replace any nobility by the very nature of what makes someone a noble.
@kenpachiramasama1139 And yet, Rivain, Dalish, Avvar, heck even Nevarra. What you say will 100% happen didn't happen in most places. Mages will inevitably take over and opress people is provably false.
@kenpachiramasama1139 Not all mages can heal. It takes skill to display all those abilities. More over all those possible abilities comes with the risk that most mages are susceptible to just being possessed by demons. It's honestly a balanced exchange considering the risks
Anders was right the whole time. SOMETHING needed to be done. The incaction of the church and enabling of the templars, the ever growing paranoia and insanity of Meredith and the overall tension between mages and templas that was brewing the entirety of the game could not be resolved peacefully. Meredith had already started on the right of Annulment regardless of Anders' actions and she was ready to throw the witches into the fire. I really don't know why people are so insistent he doomed the mages when we've seen how useless and enabling the chuch and especially Elthina has been. A neutral stance is still a stance, and when that neutrality leads to genocide then it's no better than the swords that are actually beheading innocents anyway. Anders just had the courage to do something. Fueled by rage, justice, vengeance and desperation after his lover was made tranquil, after watching the many mages he helped heal and hide be forced to turn to the blood magic he absolutely despises just to try and survive, after seeing these mages still fall to the templars swords, after hearing about the literal abuse (often times sexual) inflicted upon circle mages who couldn't say anything back lest they are slain or tranquilized. There was no solution without conflict (again, Meredith going ahead and getting the right set up prior to the bombing proves that). There was no forgiving the inaction and enabling of the church. SOMEONE needed to do something, and his justice/vengeance muddled brain and soul gave him the push he needed. What he did wasn't right, but neither was everything that was happened...and in a war, no matter how just, there will always be casulties and cruelties commited by all sides. There aren't real winners in a war, just survivors. Anders knew that and he did what he had to to survive. It's important to acknoledge that his actions shaped the entirety of the world and led to the definitive betterment of mage lives all over and even possiblity of the fall of the circle/chantry oppresive leash structure they had going on. If not for his actions the mages of Kirkwall would have all been slain for nothing and the mages would still be opressed everywhere. He could've gone about it a different way? Yes. But again, he wasn't entirely himself anymore and the story wouldn't be as shocking otherwise. At the end of the day, this is still a game. A written story. Some things are done a certain way for the shock value and that's fine. Besides a more clean and less tragic event wouldn't make the following decisions that impactul and it wouldn't be the morally grey game we know Dragon Age to be. (until Veilguard)
I thought it was disappointing how the support class of mages gradually vanished until it seemingly disappeared completely in Veilguard. I always like to play as a healer, and Origins definitely had the most variety when it came to supporting spells.
Personally, what stroked me the wrong way was how mages were restricted to only elemental spells in Inquisition. Specializing as an elementalist, healer, or a crowd controlling blood mage was just impossible now. What I loved about Origins gameplay with mages is that mages were extremely versatile. And though they were nerfed a bit in 2, they still managed to keep that versatility to an extant.
Yep, both with mechanics and repeatedly retconned lore. It started in DA:2 but really snowballed from Inquisition. It's such a pity the new writers decided to turn all three major camps - Mage, Templar and Grey Warden - into such caricatures. The second they decided to make Mages nothing but killing machines and remove healing magic, then completely ignore the demystifying of blood magic that was included over Origins to DA:2, the Mages basically became boogie men where only the 'chosen ones' are 'safe' for polite society.
I think the most glaring problem with Mages in the DA franchise, is they marketed them as essentially slaves and victims, but simultaneously portrayed them as megalomaniacal children who "just can't help themselves". It made them sympathetic with no way to truly side with them (especially after DA:Awakenings). I desperately wanted to HELP Anders (Sorry the "terrorist" thing is purely an American sentiment... He's a freedom fighter and war was literally the only way to get action against the circle hierarchy). , but even back then the real world politics seeped in and we weren't allowed to actively help him. We couldn't help him get free of his retconned servitude to a spirit that was never meant to possess him in the first place. We couldn't help him end the chantry or Templars in Kirkwall, despite having absolute PROOF of their utter unforgivable corruption. Despite several in-game lore entries and quests, blood magic was marketed as "TeH BiG EEEEEviL"tm. Canonically that's just not true, but each game dug mages further and further down into the "tortured and imprisoned for their own good" pigeonhole. I mean, Inquisition gave us a hypothetical way of curing tranquility in the same way that previous games/books implied a way to cure the Calling, but nope. Conveniently retconned out. As much as I freaking adore this franchise, the Mages and Grey Wardens after Awakening are REALLY poorly written with little to no respect for the Original lore. It makes BOTH camps seem extremely unrelatable and caricatured. Side note, Anders was ALWAYS a radical freedom fighter. "All I want is a banquet, A harem, and the power to rain down lightning on every templar in creation". - Anders, DA:A. I'll never not be pissed that we couldn't HELP him bomb that den of dogma and servitude. It was incredibly lazy writing to NOT allow for that option, especially for a Mage Hawk. He DID get justice, Hawke could spare him, Cullen could let them leave, and the war was NECESSARY.
Don't forget that "Freedom Fighter" is just as meaningless term as "Terrorist". Using the same logic, Templars are also "Freedom Fighters" because magic is by it's very is oppressive. So protecting the little people against the historic and cultural oppression of mage hierarchy is a worthy goal.
@@grizz7714 No, a freedom fighter (in it's literal translation rather than its Americanised tranaslation) is someone who fights for the freedom of oppressed people. Anders was kept in solitary confinement for a YEAR for the crime of wanting to escape from his prison that he was kept in and tortured since childhood. You only have to play the games (I mean you can read the lore items for more, but seriously you don't need to) to learn beyond doubt that their "protectors" r^pe, lobotomise, enslave and torture Mages and the Mages are forced to just suck it up. Trying to end that regime IS freedom fighting. What's being DONE to them is terrorism. It's a wonder they're not ALL being possessed. The Templars are equivalent to real world n^zis in their PR and embracing of atrocities. I mean look at Kirkwall. There's a reason all the Mages went mad and turned to demons for help. Look at the Lake Calenhad circle where Anders came from - The one where Templars were constantly either belittling mages or hitting on them at every turn. The one that was going to be preemptively annulled just because the head templar had a snit. A terrorist is someone who deliberately mass murders for the sake of mass murder. Anders hated Templars - with perfectly good reason - but he was first and foremost creating a rallying point for Mages to take back their freedom. He was absolutely in the right. Stop thinking like an american flashing back to 9/11 and think about what the game is ACTUALLY portraying. There are leagues more Mages maimed, tortured, enslaved and killed by Templars than average joes on hte street harmed by Mages. And let's not forget that the Templars are ALL religious zealots. It has NOTHING to do with "protecting the innocent". It's about godly control. And not in small part about the Templars compliance due to lyrium addiction.
@@noctoi For someone that dislikes American-Centric views like You, assuming every person You talk to is an american is THE MOST American thing You can do... but anyway... Adressing Your "arguments". *"Anders was kept in solitary confinement for a YEAR for the crime of wanting to escape from his prison that he was kept in and tortured since childhood."* He literally tried to escape the circle. Some form of punishment should be in order. Now, torturing him for this is way too much, and puting restrictions on the Templars treatment and punishing of mages would be a good thing. But You're not arguing for that. You're arguing that the circle is fundamentaly immoral. Bringn up the poor treatment of mages by the hands of Templars is irrelevant since You would oppose the cricle's existence even if the mages were better treated. Unless I'm mistaken about that? *"There's a reason all the Mages went mad and turned to demons for help."* That's the reason the circle exists in the first place. They do it now mostly under the pretense of being the oppresed group, but it is stablished extensively what mages can do with no retrictions, like Tevinter. *"he was first and foremost creating a rallying point for Mages to take back their freedom."* What good did 9/11 did for the middle-east again? *"There are leagues more Mages maimed, tortured, enslaved and killed by Templars than average joes on hte street harmed by Mages."* Just because the circle exists. Again, we see what mages can do with no restrictions on their power. There's literally an entire religion based on that alone. And even with all that, mages like Uldred or Quentin are able to do massive amount of damage all by themselves. Because when power is concentrated on a few, it causes imbalance. You're the one not thinking about what the game is trying to protray if You think is a black and white conflict.
@@grizz7714 Never said I dislike it dude, I'm saying that you're viewing this situation - a situation based in an alternate world modeled after medieval Britain/European history - through a modern, post 9/11 lens. Like I said, this situation is far more akin to N^si Germany than to modern terrorism. I explained the point of view pretty damn extensively, so I'm not sure why you automatically jumped on that one point... Why is it that the automatic focus is on the assumption that I'm being "racist" rather than that you're being situationally ethnocentric?
Mages get a generally piss-poor lot on the whole of Thedas's politics. In Ferelden, pretty much anything done too mages is considered automatically justified. And I do mean ANYTHING. Cole's original self in Inquisition references some of the horrible things done to young mages imprisoned in circles. Sure, there are a few good reasons to be cautious about them, but it almost always devolves into 'mages must be contained'.
Saying Ander's is wrong because he caused the deaths of innocents would be to say any act of rebellion against oppression is wrong. All forms of resistance if done to the point they are effective will cause the suffering of innocents either directly or indirectly. This is not to say whether anders is right or wrong, just that the specific argument is flawed
Knowing that Meredith had already called for the Right of Anullment by the time the chantry decided to act as arbiters adds another layer to what the mages are supposed to be doing at that point. That the game offered so much ammunition to both sides to the point of guaranteed conflict is amazing.
That makes a lot of sense. The Fade is like the Warp. Mages are like Psykers; both are born with their abilities that manifest at some point and both must be sanctioned by a governing authority to use their powers and are sent to train. Otherwise they risk possession by demons from the Warp/Fade. Both go through training and must pass tests and those deemed too weak willed to resist possession and fail are killed, by Templars or sent to feed the Emperor of Mankind. I didn’t even notice. Damn.
@@mikemerchant9242 if you haven’t played it already, Greedfall kind of melds some basic firearms into a medieval magic setting, tho it’s not super similar to Dragon Age.
While I think this is overall a reasonable analysis of the situation in DA2, I do want to make an argument against the portrayal of Elthina here. While she certainly talks the talk of the reasonable middle ground, she does not back it up in terms of her actions. This is largely to be expected, as she is the highest ranking representative of the Chantry in the city and the Templars are an arm of the Chantry. While she is certainly saddened to an extent by the state of the mages in the city, every time she gets involved her role amounts to “stop arguing and go back to your tower/barracks for a while” and the abuses mages suffer only worsen. She stops arguments on her front steps, but is incredibly permissive for someone who claims to disapprove of the most extreme templar actions *when she herself has power over them that she refuses to employ*. Furthermore, Merideth had been the de-facto civil leader in Kirkwall for many, many years. She was involved in the overthrow of the last Viscount when he tried to expel the Templar Order from the city, after which Elthina herself promoted Merideth to knight commander. Merideth then INSTALLED THE NEXT VISCOUNT and threatened him implicitly with the *shattered signet ring* of his predecessor, with a note reading “his fate need not be yours”. All this while Elthina seemed extremely happy to live in a city where the chantry now held all the de-facto power in the day to day affairs. Either she was utterly ignorant of these circumstances (which is troubling in and of itself) showing an utter failure of responsible oversight, or she knew either implicitly or explicitly what had occurred and approved of it. She was not powerless; she had the authority to call on the military might of the larger Chantry to help her reassert control of a rogue templar branch if that is what had occurred. To what little credit I give her, she did deny the Rite of Annulment to Merideth, even if it only meant Merideth went over her head to try and obtain it anyway (and we shall never know how the central Chantry would have answered that request). It seems far far more likely that Elthina was content with the ever-tightening stranglehold the Templars exerted over the mages in their (supposed) care - so long as it didn’t escalate to mass-murder or shouting in the streets. To say that Anders made peace impossible ignores the fact that peace had not existed for the mages of Kirkwall the entire time we see them; he made it impossible for the status-quo of ever-increasing casualties to stay as quiet and unobtrusive as the Chantry wishes. Though his methods are very debatable, he was correct that the situation there was incredibly unsustainable, and that the mass-murder of all mages in the city was a when, not an if Edit: I do also wish briefly to take issue with the way the ending is framed here as a final issue. The framing of the choice as “do you help the Templars who feel they have justification, or the mages who might be killed” Is a deeply sanitised version of the reality. The choice is between aiding a mass murder that the Templars already wanted to commit, on the population that they are the jailers and overseers of, for the actions of one mage who is not even affiliated with the circle that they have authority over - or to try and help those who about to be murdered by their lifelong wardens regardless of their involvement with the specific incident in question. That is not an equal choice, and to ignore the power dynamic between the circle and the Templars robs the sicuation of its most damning elements.
Who kills more? A mage or a king? Magic as the route of all evil ignores that those with power still kill more people. Dorian’s comment that mages in the south will become like tavinter in inquisition made me think “yea whoever has power has the power to abuse it and likely will” And at the end merideth was already going to murder all the mages so blaming it on Anders is simply an excuse. That said Anders target really sucked, he should have targeted the real enemy not the chantry which, while complicit, was actually trying in vein to keep the peace. He should have blown up the templars with merideth inside. I actually think the devs did Anders dirty there, why would he not target his enemy and instead give his enemy an excuse to attack the mages forcing them to fight. It really makes no sense, the bomb makes sense the target doesn’t. Instead he should have targeted the templars but they had already left to get to the circle or something. Would have made so much more sense to his character. It really felt like the devs were just trying to push “everyone is evil” instead of actually looking at what someone would really do in that situation. His desperation was believable though.
I HATED how the only way you can play the game with your sister alive in Kirkwall is to NOT be a mage. They should have made it a choice like they did in the first Mass Effect game with Ashley and Kaiden. Rather then locking it based on your class. Also, nothing was going to save the mages. Not since Meredith got her hands on the Corrupted Icon which she forged into a sword. Even if Anders hadn't done what he did, she still would have demanded the Rite of Annulment. Her mind was already polluted, and it wasn't mages who did it.
To the people saying that Mages should be locked up because they'd feel marginally less safe in their presence ... Thanks for showcasing how easily susceptible you are to fascist propaganda. Like, it wasn't even a difficult litmus test but you all somehow failed it spectacularly
'Marginally' less safe? A mage is a person that has a metaphorical bomb strapped to him at all times, and can have abilities that can mess with your mind, control your body, or just straight up 'unalive' a city block. Imagine walking through a town but every mage was instead a person with a bomb vest carrying a small armories worth of rockets and guns. yeah, they don't PLAN on having the bomb go off (cause they like living too), and they say they aren't a threat, (to you cause they clearly are a threat to anyone trying to mess with them), but all it takes is one small mistake and- BAM, no more villiage/town/CITY, -lest you don't remember what Connor almost did to Redcliff, and he was just 1 child mage.
@@carbodude5414 Define "fascism" without ambiguity (it can't be mistaken for something else) & then explain how that is anyway relevant to this topic.
honestly anders is the best insert character i've ever seen in video games "good or evil doesn't matter, they're don't deserve to be locked up" sounds like someone? and after that, dozen blood mages went rampage uncontrollable, even if you siding with mages you still gonna encounter abomination along the way. even his fellow mages despise his action and desert him after the event. the mages didn't hate circle tower, they hate abusive templar
dragon age 2 was my first game in the series in it was great and is my all time favorite one in list of countless games i played and it got me interested the prior one and yes after playing origins in the perspective of origins it was indefinitely a huge dissapointment cause that ones just a legend among games on of the very best i ever played but it still holds a place to my heart when i dont compare to ortgins or even if i do it was still and acceptable sequel for the tiem being when you knew that the development time was very short and still to come with such an amazing game it deserved praise inquisition somehow really didnt interest me because of all that sexual or cheery greeny stuff theme they went on for somehow took away the interest not to mention an extremely unpolished buggy gameplay for 3pl a game but from what i saw on youtube the story seemed good enough even though it felt that it was moving away from the original concept somehow and now dreadwolf its indeed the dread that i ddint wanted to face that came true anyways its always good to see when dragon age 2 gets soem exposure ,always recommend to play it at least once and it has greay replay value that you dont see it this days if you can accept soem of the repetetiveness
I'm not going to lie, in my first run I took the "I hope both sides lose" policy, executing Anders and siding with the templars on assumption that there is no way we're leaving Meredith in charge, nor that she gives up her power without a fight Ultimately circles are necessary - power corrupts and ultimate power corrupts ultimately, a 1st level mage can incinerate a person on a whim, high level mages are sheer forces of nature and even that assumes total lack of demons, which will naturally make mages seize power by force. In the lore itself Tevinter Empire is literally a mage dictatorship ran by slavery and ruled with terror - magic is not common enough in the setting to produce valid opposition to potential alliance of power thirsty mages and even templars, sacrificing their health, lifespan and partially free will undergo lifelong lyrium addiction, imagine the only force capable of contesting magical terrorists or dictatorship is made of people willingly becoming crack junkies for the sake of others and even then a single mage giving in to demons will require them to go 10v1. If you need to choose between multiple evils with no good solution in sight picking the lesser evil is the moral good - a magic prison system allowing 99,9% of people peaceful lives or system of freedom with a new abomination massacre in any bigger town every month and risk of slavery and dictatorship ran by mages supplying their power with blood of unwilling donors? And sure, Origins circle should be the standard with relative freedom, peace and tranquility being used only as punishment for blood magic or voluntarily for those who fear the Harrowing as TBH it was only with Loghain stirring the pot crap hit the fan while Meredith was an insane zealot but let's not pretend Anders wouln't become a terrorist if he entered a city with different templar commander.
I find the argument mages are dangerous flawed because its not like normies arent dangerous, i could commit arson just as easily as a mage. Theres also multiple ways to resist magic in universe.
@@Ravi9A I romanced him in my game, which gave a very interesting spin in the experience. I actually quite liked him, although I obviously did not agree with him.
I always find the mage vs Templar situation to be forced. So the story that results is .. boring. It's a no win scenario contrived to make either side look bad. It goes against how I like to play good v evil by making me an accessory to evil no matter how I play
right i see alot of comments which to me seems to focus on all the harm magic can do and i wont pretend they cant do damage cause they most deff can do and alot of it in fact but as a staunch follower of mage freedom and ppl need to stop being soo afraid of cause of all the amazing things it can do im gonna outline a few problems with protrayign mages as the only ones who can for example do what anders did first of all im gonna qoute solas: (or try to i forget how exactly he phrased it forgive me) magic like anything is a tool and how it is used is highly dependant on the user and there is the first bit by havign such extreme and harsh measures for mages u will create faar more radicalises mages willing to do evil and become evil purely to get away from it and be free but since this radicalises them that will eventually be corrupted and will result in someone just grasping for power screw who it hurts cause most ppl wouldnt hesitate to hurt him/her for no other reason than a birth thing and thus they have no reason to care about if they hurt ppl this is human nature the second part is anyone can do pretty much what anders did okay the only reason they dont is cause 99% of ppl in thedas aside from the qunari and technically tevinter essentially worships the chantry and the maker soo no reason to hurt them and the qunari whatever else they might be are not terrorists and have bigger concerns than jsut blowing up a church and tevinter again they have bigger concerns than jsut a chantry building however there is an argument that mages are more likely to come into the kind of thing that can do that and u wouldnt be wrong but the thign is anders didnt use magic in what he did this was more alchemical than magic being involved he might have infused with with a little magic to add to the thign but anders himself didnt do this on his own cause the amount of power for a mage to do this is staggering and most likely he would need to resort to blood magic and alot of "mysterious" disappearances of innocent ppl which he didnt do. basically what im trying to say if someone wants to do what anders did or do the kinda damage or relatively close to it in DA there is nothing stoppign u. as a wise man once said where there is a will there is a way. the point is the more u villainize someone for any reason the more likely that person will become exactly what u fear for example in narnia prince caspian there is a line when lucy tries to talk to one of the bears but the bear is hostile the dwarf said after those ppl came and treated them like animals the more like animals they became and stopped talking and thus became how bears act in the real world. so by treating mages with disdain and disgust and hatred because u assume them to be evil they will become evil well most likely not always but its faaaar more likely to happen than if u didnt treat magic or mages with that kinda thign basically its a self fullfilling prophecy so instead of mages beign used to help the nation become strong and powerful and great it can be more of a detriment rather than a boon cause ppl need to focus more on the destructive side to survive. and that in a nutshell is teh problem also btw the only problem with tevinter is the slavery and maybe too big a fan of snakes and horrible taste in clothes but all of that can easily be solved with a leader that knows what he is talking about and is smart and capable and set some restrictions but still loose and will mages have freedom but merely some thigns to preserve whats best for the nation and not the individual. aka they need a new archon and get rid of the magisterium cause honestly that entire thing is waaay too corrupt and the magisters are beyond help at this point cause all they care about is power screw who pays the price for that.
mean anders was right whit amount abuse so on how long do u tink peace going last no would be war ofc mage fight thoot nail fight deam cantry and it tamplars
I have a lot of problems with Anders over the course of DA2. Mainly little things like him commenting how shocked he is that any mage would be evil (when hunting the serial killer), which is ridiculous. He also approves if you sell Fenris out to the slavers, which I find deeply hypocritical and effed up. That said, the Chantry is an oppressive organization, and Elthina very intentionally refused to take any action to prevent the abuses that were being committed against mages in Kirkwall. Word is also that there were not very many people in the Chantry other than Elthina at the time of the explosion. I'm on Anders' side in regard to that. Regarding Justice, when I replayed Awakening, it really looked to me like "justice" became Vengeance the moment he came into the real world. He was berating Anders for not acting against the mages' oppressors when Anders at the time said he just wanted to be left alone. My hot take: Anders did NOT corrupt Justice. Justice was already Vengeance. So when they joined, Vengeance corrupted Anders, and blamed Anders for that, which is why Anders believed it was his own anger that caused the situation.
I always prefer to play as rogues or fighters so I support Templars in Dragon Age world. Mages are not dangerous just because of blood magic. They are dangerous because they can use magic and kill many innocent people in seconds while others would have to use swords and daggers or bows to do the same damage to civilians in a longer span of time. Mages are dangerous because in the end they are just portals for spirits and demons to come to Dragon Age world and no truly knows how that work or how to control that or if there is even a way to control that. In the end there is a big chance that ALL the mages will sooner or later become abominations and not a single mage will die from an old age.
Good thing the opinions of people who turn a blind eye to their priests diddling kids are invalid. Not like you'd be valued in the Chantry anyway Darryl. You'd just be a cleric with no say in policy or a crack head knight who abuses people for their next fix.
imo, dragon age games gets worse with each new iteration, yes, I quite enjoyed DA:II, biggest gripe was that I was locked into being a human (to mee atleast), whereas most thinked it was the layout being in a single city, wich I actually quite liked looking back, even thoug it was an annoyance at first, I actually though a few of the "new" places in both inquisition and veil guard could've used a more fleshed out arc, orjust a longer story like da2 set in them, to flesh them out with more lore and feel, since while they looked nice, and layout was better than DA2(for the most part) they still are repetitive in the layout same as DA2(wich tbf origins was aswell somewhat) but I quite liked the familly in dragon age setting for the story in DA2, all playing out in this one city, wished it was bigger city though.
To the people commenting that Ferelden was conquered by a mage heavy faction and that's why they're so anti-mage: that's not how power or conquest works. Imagine if a sword/bow civilization was conquered by another one using guns, and the sword/bow one became fanatically anti-gun after the conquest is ended. That would be insane right? What really happens is that historically, the civilization who were missing the thing that made them lose spends enormous amounts of time and money to get that thing. They might not always be good at it, but they definably know that they need it in case people come back. Ferelden _should_ be going crazy getting every bit of magical technology they could get their hands on in order to stand against future aggression.
I am going to disagree with your summary of Merrill here. Spoilers if you haven't played the first three games. What you described is a reasonable conclusion to draw when you've only played Origins and DA2, but Inquisition teaches us more about spirits in such a way that it actually validates most of the things Merrill was saying. Solas explains that when spirits interact with the physical world, they are influenced by it. They become demons because the world corrupts them. His friend who was a Wisdom spirit became a Pride demon when forced to fight. In one of the expansions, we get to know the Avvar and learn that they train their mages by having them join with a spirit, who eventually leaves them. The spirit does not become a demon, and the relationship is symbiotic. So, here's what it actually looks like to me. Merrill interacted with a spirit. Not a demon. No one around her would believe her or listen to, much like Cassandra of Troy (cursed by Apollo, able to predict the future but never to be believed). Her Keeper eventually chooses to sacrifice herself to try to save Merrill, but IMO it is her actions, and her closed mind, that turned the spirit into a demon, dooming herself and shattering Merrill's aspirations in the process. I believe that with what the lore has told us, if the Keeper had not intervened, we would have met a Wisdom spirit instead of a Pride demon, in Merrill's final quest, and the things she'd been saying throughout the game would have been proven right.
to be fair... Kirkwall is a city state and blah blah blah. So Kirkwall is its own independent thing but also not really. Kirkwall does have a Chantry and a templar order BUT it behaves similiarly more or less like its own chapter in a way. While there are templars out and about in the overall world of dragon age, The templars in Kirkwall don't 100% reflect the rest of the templars throughout the world itself. Also, the guards and templars had signs of corruption to a certain extent and even the Chantry had its own betrayer who was trying to cause trouble with the Quanari and the player character. Overall the second game was... of "poor quality" when compared to the first. So if anything, i would say that because the writing was a bit worst and blah blah blah, that it was the cause for these issues and problems moving forward. all in all, the fact is they were pressed for time so they lean HARD into the whole "mages vs templars" thing. They REALLY wanted you to side with the Mages. It is clear that the Mages are the "correct Choice, while the templars are the "evil choice", for lack of a better word. ok m done lol my bad
Some context I want to add regarding the Rite of Annulment in Act 3: During Act 3, prior to the Chantry explosion, you learn from Knight-Lieutenant Karras that Meredith had already requested permission for the Rite of Annulment from Divine Justinia. She was just waiting for permission. The only thing Anders caused her to do was act before hearing back.
5:02
Iron Bull to the Bull Chargers Healer: "The healing potions you make are fantastic, but they taste terrible!"
Healer: "That's because its a poultice, ser. You put in on the wound, you're not supposed to drink it."
@@malcolmcooke7131 drink it anyway
And the Warden chug poultice like water.
Love this reference lol
A good way to understand the fear of magic as a spectator is given by David Gaider in his interview with SuperRAD, paraphrasing: "In D&D a 1st level mage could cast Charm Person on you, that means for the next few hours that mage for you is your best friend, the one you trust the most, that alone is scary, and it only gets worse the higher the level", Gaider didn't like how magic was treated in dnd settings, more like another tool in the arsenal, rather than the scary thing it actually is and that is reflected in Dragon Age, it's a core part of the setting.
As for myself I understand why most ttrpgs and their setting treat magic this way, they want to be a theme park for the player to have fun in it, but thanks to man who asked himself "what if we really think about it for a moment" we have a marvelous setting that makes us ponder and discuss still today.
The only critique I can give to the DA games is that they don't represent correctly how they want the mages to be scary sometime, especially from a player prospective, you pick fireball as a spell 'cause it's fun, but in reality you became a walking siege weapon that can kill multiple people with a hand wave, were most other people have a sword in their hands. Even further, as a player mage, you don't get the constant risk of demonic tentation and/or possession you hear and see happen all around you, at least not in a way any other class can.
That's one of the reason people didn't like the shift to more action oriented combat starting from DA2, if characters start doing flips and jumps around the battlefield, this whole dilemma comes weaker, as the "average person" becomes more and more superhuman.
@@leonardobattistel4595 watched and loved SuperRAD’s video a couple months ago, amazing that he got Gaider in for a large chunk of the video to interview.
I think the problem with mages is kinda the same problem X-men had.
Yeah Mages are people and therefore deserve to be treated like one, but also mages are an atomic bomb of potential.
Except we almost never see the average fighter in Dragon Age. Inquisition has the most "normal fighters" in the way of Inquisition soldiers and the time Blackwall conscripted some villagers. Normal as none of them have a specialization to speak of.
Everyone else has been Rogues with alchemy, assassins, reavers, templar's/rogue templar's, berserkers, avvar. All of these types are not normal by any stretch of the word. They drink lyrium. They do blood magic rituals with dragons blood to turn themselves into a non-spirit based abomination. These kind of people make sense in not being as pressed by mages, especially when two of three of the classes I mentioned are specifically designed to hunt mages and magical beings.
@@RazielTheUnborn As far as I'm concerned thoes are the avarage fighters in dragon age.
The other problem with how Gaiden wants magic to be dangerous is. Ok mind altering magic is conceptually scary, but so are getting drugged, same result, magic doesn't make it inherently scarrier. But DA often pretends it does.
@@i.cs.z But someone trying to drug or poison someone has to get the poison where its going. They need to physically bring it with them, and like any weapon, it can be discovered. A mage doesn't need to bring anything. At any point they could hold their hands out and the room explodes. You might shake a random person's hand one day and they cast walking bomb on you. There's some pretty messed up spells in this game that I definitely take fighting a dude with a sword over.
Gonna have to correct you regarding Merrill. She knew she was putting herself in danger, and ahe took precautions. It's why in Act 3 she brings Hawke and the gang along, so she can be put down if she ends up possessed.
The problem was that her Keeper and the clan were so terrified of what she MIGHT do with her power, that they repeatedly broke themselves trying to get away from her or stop her. Pol ran headlong into the Varterral, and the Keeper let the demon possess HER before Merrill could interact with it again.
Which is in line with what mages in general suffer. People hate and mistreat them as a whole because of what they MIGHT do, and create a self-fulfilling prophecy.
interesting perspective, i do have the opinion that Merrill probably would have been possessed by the demon, but I guess we will never know in the end right.
@@davidnewman1456 Maybe she would have. But then the damage would have been contained to herself.
I reiterate, she took every measure to keep her actions from hurting them. She left the clan entirely, she took the Blighted eluvian with her...
The clan was so determined to prove their fear and mistrust of her right, that they got their own selves hurt. They shouldn't have even stuck around Kirkwall that long, they're nomadic, Flemeth's amulet had already been delivered, and Kirkwall was templar central.
@@WanderingRagabondIn DA2 I believe the Sabrae Clan are stuck in Sundermount because their Halla died during the Blight. (I could be wrong, I just remember there was mention of the Halla being dead therefore the clan was immobile.
@@funky7692 Yes, when you go there in Act 3 for Merril's quest, one of them can say they're hoping to hear from another clan willing to give them Halla.
Agreed. Merrill is a unique situation where arguably more harm was done by the fear of what could happen with what she was doing then what was actually done.
Adding on, there's the subtext that Anders portrays himself as the responsible mage while constantly berating Merrill for her blood magic, saying shes going too far to achieve her goals, that she will cause problems for all mages, and that she will end up possessed. Meanwhile, Merrill is initially portrayed as reckless and dangerous, but actually takes precautions, never means to do anyone wrong, and can actually learn from her actions and their consequences.
@@Saitken Anders is very largely hypocritical, which I think works for his character. In the end he was FAR more dangerous to the mages and everyone in general than Merrill or any blood mage in DA2.
It’s interesting how Anders and Meredith can both be classed this way.
@@SuRaXGaming Some of Meredith's danger came from her position of authority. Anders did everything he did without a position of authority. Imagine if Anders had rank in addition to everything else...
@ Yea Anders would’ve been a lot of trouble at the head of a Mage rebellion (or force of any kind). There definitely would be radicalist mages who agree with Anders, and it’s for the best they never ended up in a room together.
I get what you're saying about taking precautions, but Anders was right about her getting possessed. She would have been possessed by the pride demon if her keeper didn't intervene and sacrifice herself.
@@SuRaXGaming Didn't Merrill get her whole clan killed with blood magic? She was terrible, you are right that she does learn her lesson (which Anders is pathologically incapable of), but she was incredibly arrogant until far too late, and hated my Hawke because he didn't enable her.
Some corrections: Blood Magic doesnt actually require Demons to acquire, but most Mages end up learning it from demons due to the Chantry burning most books regarding Blood Magic, IIRC. In fact Blood Magic tends to be very effective in binding/controlling Demons so it is ironic that people learn it from Demons...
Knight-Commander Meredith actually starts the game fairly reasonable(like a scene of her arguing against tranquiling a mage who didnt do much but leave for a bit IIRC, later in the game she would have Tranquiled/Killed them without question for similar acts) but a central plot element drives her towards madness and extremism. And she has PERSONAL TRAGEDY regarding letting Mages roam free(her sister was a Mage and not given to the Circle because the her and her family loved her and didnt want to send her away. Something happened and her Sister became an abomination who killed Meredith's parents IIRC) which is why she was strict in the first place. And a easily missable lore tidbit reveals Kirkwall(which was built by Blood Magic-abusing Old Tevinter) was built in the shape of a rune/gylph used for Blood Magic Rituals and the blood of slaves was used to power SOMETHING there. But without Blood Mages, the rune seems to be nudging people toward violent conflict more than any other city of similar size.
I know you focused on Dragon Age 2 but Origins touched upon just WHY mages and Blood Magic specifically are feared/prejudiced against in Thedas. The largest Empire(IIRC compared to the height of the Roman Empire) the world has seen so far was Old Tevinter who used Blood Magic to conquer most of the continent. Until the Chantry and their Templars figured out Anti-Magic and drove them into their current more Byzantine/Holy Roman Empire sized territory. Mages STILL rule Tevinter and they STILL practice Slavery, and Blood Magic is STILL LEGAL there. Fenris is literally a horror story of what a Mage will do to his slaves for research purposes. Essentially Mages were synonymous with Oppressors for a good stretch of history and the Chantry ensure no one will ever forget it. though as bad as the Chantry are to mages, they arent that great to their Templars either. They make them addicted to consuming Lyrium to keep them under their control. Hence that horrible situation in Inquisition.
Have you see the Netflix animated Dragon Age series? it deals with Current Tevinter a lot. I enjoyed it even if it wasn't the best. And one scene where they have their Tal-Vashoth Mage pick up a bunch of supplies for their Heist(yes it is a Heist plot, robbing a Tevinter Magister! I actually liked this aspect!) she bluffs the shopkeeper by saying it is all for some Magister and his Blight-Shelter because he is paranoid that the world is currently overdue for another Blight of Darkspawn.
Tangent: the above scene in the Dragon Age cartoon inspired me to create(well Outline) a fantasy setting where the various Dungeons of the world were once the Doomsday Prepper Bunkers for High Elves until they figured out a Demiplane made a better End of the World Shelter and perfected that. Monster ecosystems inside are occasionally accidental but a lot of them were intentional self-perpetuating security systems to keep the Young Races from raiding their bunkers. I include this specifically because I believe not everything has be the Best Thing Ever to still be enjoyed/inspire creativity.
Unfortunately I cannot find it in myself to be hyped for Veilguard due to a number of things the devs have said/confirmed about the game. In particular, removing Blood Magic yet again(i know it was not in Inquisition but you are the de-facto head of a group with ties to the Chantry, they barely tolerate a Mage-Inquisitor much less a Blood Mage one) seems like a bad move to me, judging from previous games where blood magic was extremely effective at managing Spirits/demons so a game called "Veilguard" not employing seems odd. But the devs have also said something along the lines of not wanting to have too many returning characters because it was boring or something along those sentiments... then ended up revealing they made ZEVRAN of all people King of Antiva because... they liked his name and forgot who he was. Another thing is i doubt they'd give an answer to wtf happened to Anders since DA 2 and i am DIRELY curious as to his fate. I could list more but my comment is already long reaching TL:DR levels
All these details may not bother you but they add up to sounding like I, personally, would be annoyed trying to play it. I hope everyone who buys it feels their money was well spent, though!
There is no TL;DR when it comes to Dragon Age, especially not not when it's such a well thought piece of reflection.
It's also either demons or ancient elves who first gave blood magic to mortals.
That's very cool. I didn't know there was a Dragon Age Show on Netflix. I only knew about the movie with Cassandra.
Just saying, that Zevran story is not true. I played the game and the only mention of Zevran is by Lucanis who calls Zevrans old crow house cowards and that they were shamed in Antiva later after Origins.
Meredith was never readonable, ok this usn't in the game, but in WoT, but just look up what she did with the previous ruler of Kirkwall.
She was allways like that, she was just better at keeping a mask on.
I side with the mages because if oppression like that of Kirkwall is not only possible but tolerated, then the entire system is flawed. If they let a Circle exist in the Gallows, instead of relocating it to Wycome(one of the only city-state lacking a Circle) once the anomalous level of death and possession was discovered, or even dismantling it and sending all its surviving Mages to the nearby Ostwick, Markham or even Ansburg Circles, shows the Chantry cares more about punishing mages for their Original Sin than safekeeping children born with magic. Especially after the Starkhaven Circle was burnt down as preparation for an assassination of the Vale dynasty, and instead of relocating the refugees to the robust Ostwick Circle they were sent to the volatile Gallows.
That being said:
1. Meredith is so hard on mages because she experienced the flip side herself. Her sister was an apostate, a child who had magic but was hidden from the circle, and because of that a demon invaded her dreams, turned her into an abomination and they killed her own family save Meredith herself, who became a Chantry orphan before opting into its Templar Order.
2. Specifically in Kirkwall, mages are dealt an atrociously evil hand, as the entire city is an ancient bloodbath of mass human sacrifice meant to tear open the Veil to the Fade. This means demons can just squeeze in wily-nily and invade any mage they see fit UNLESS that mage has tremendous willpower. It's why a third of Circle apprentices fail their Harrowing(trial-by-fire) and another either third or half are made Tranquil instead, only the best of mages in the city get to stay living mages. It's why the distinction between apostate and maleficar is nonexistent, since anyone not guarded is aggressively peddled blood magic and possession by demons, like rats stuck in a dull, hostile cage and drug-laced water. Add to that Corypheus's presence under the mountains, further bleeding invasive thoughts into Kirkwall in general and mages in particular.
In Ferelden, the Templars are also strict but they aren't overzealous. Any mage who passed their Harrowing is given the benefit of doubt, and mages like Anders are repeatedly captured with little more than more stringent imprisonment. In many Orlesian and Nevarran circles the containment only applies after the Harrowing, and once a mage is deemed safe enough not to be at risk for abomination or blood magic, they can simply physically leave the Circle while remaining a Circle mage.
3. If innocence is proven beyond shadow of a doubt, the Kirkwall Templars prior to the catalyst DO use chains rather than the axe. The best example is Bethany Hawke, a lifelong apostate who was trained by a runaway Circle mage, and for all intents and purposes lives as a normal person who happens to cast a few spells to help her non-mag sibling feed their family. Once said sibling goes on a long expedition and the apostate corners, she surrenders peacefully, puts through the Harrowing which she passes, and is all but instantly given the Enchanter rank to train other apprentices to resist demons as she has managed without the resources of the Circle.
Cassandra in DAI flat out says that the Seekers knew of Knight-Commander Meredith's abuses long ago but they deemed them acceptable on account of the city's (Cassandra's words here) 'magical corruption'. Honestly, this short piece of dialogue told me all I needed to know about the Chantry's system - It's meant to punish mages.
@@Billpro25 Precisely. DAI solidified my pro-mage stance beyond the shadow of doubt, even with Cassandra and Vivienne caping for the Templars that hard. I get that Corypheus's influence was a secret, but surely the Seekers knew about The Bone Pit? That blood magic and human sacrifice re literally etched to the walls and pavement of Kirkwall? In the DA universe it's unsafe for such a city to stand, let alone run a MAGE BOARDING SCHOOL PRISON INSIDE THE OLD SLAVE QUARTERS. How can anyone excuse having a Circle THERE but not in WYCOME!
It's why I always try to make Leliana Divine Victoria - Leliana, who was aided by Sketch, who debated Morrigan the Witch of the Wilds and saw her for who she is(an edgy girl trying to measure up to her own myth), followed the Warden as they cooperated with the Mages' Collective, an assortment of self-policing apostates who's only moral ambiguity was fueling a Templars' addiction, something they never would have needed to do had they not been criminalized. No wonder that same Leliana dissolves the Circle and allows Mages(as ell as nonhuman nonmages) in the Chantry.
As I understood the Circles have some inner autonomy. Templars always watching and seeking blood mages, apostates, corrupt mages etc. out and within the Circles, but the ranks and resources of the Circle managed by the mages themselves, so it wasn’t the wise templars who saw Bethanys experience and put her in the enchanter rank to train acolytes, it was Orsino or his mage underlings
@@Elite_Tauren_Chieftain The "inner autonomy" is beholden to the wills of the Templars. In Montsimmard it's all but absolute, while in Kirkwall it barely exists. In Bethany's case it was the Templars who decreed she be taken in peacefully as a Circle mage instead of being cut down on the spot or made Tranquil. Meredith dictates who the Viscount is, I don't have a shred of doubt that she control s who gets to be and stay a Mage and who gets to rise to the rank of Enchanter. And Bethany, a devout Andrastian who chose to hide in a hovel like a little girl instead of frying up Darkspawn on her way to getting rich and politically untouchable, is better than an embittered lifelong Circle mage.
Depents of the place
Since in the fereldan circle ALL mages go out to join the army because the grand enchanter said so, while the templar stay in the circle to rebuild
I managed to convince Fenris to join the mages by having him as a nearly maxed friend. Sure, he abandoned me first, but once I pointed out to him that he's against slavery, he rejoined me and my entire party stood against the templars
@@magicat9705 yea unfortunately I didn’t give Fenris enough attention to be able to sway him :( wish I did tho, but there’s always other playthroughs
I miss Mark Darrahs days in Bioware. He is the mastermind behind these great stories and intricate dilemmas. I am sure he can come up with a smart solution for it all if given the opportunity.
@@marcomongke3116 unfortunately a lot of the classic BioWare team are no longer around, which is fair enough for them so long as they left on good terms, but it’s unfortunate so many key players have moved on from the series.
@leonardobattistel4595 I dont know much, but considering how David Gaider reacts against some of the old fans and approves of Veilguard narratives, I starting to question the legitimacy and talent of the writers there. Perhaps he and likes of him were uplifted and pampered by political messaging and leniency. What do you think?
@@marcomongke3116 I think I was misunderstood, or I didn't answer properly, what I meant to say is that Darrah was not the mind behind the dilemmas and the stories, the writers were, surely since he was directing he had input in those, but he doesn't have a writer background, he was a programmer at Bioware before directing, what I want to say is to not put all the merit into one person, a lot of of talented people where behind those situation that you mentioned, Darrah alone won't give you those.
@@leonardobattistel4595 I will take your word for it.
Mike Laidlaw, btw, not Mark Darrah. Judging by Mark Darrah's comments towards Origins on his own youtube channel, I'm not sure if he was the one responsible for how great Origins really was.
So what happened to ALL HEALING MAGIC!?
Wynn exists. She's a healing mage and essential in Origin because that game is friggin hard!
@@zacharycayer3234 god I miss the healing mage meta from Origins. At least Anders had some healing spells aside from the default heal spell in 2, but gone completely after :(
Something that baffles me every time someone talks about this is the moment where folks seem to imply that Elthina was an innocent victim here.
Thing is, she isn't. She's the Grand Cleric of the local chantry, she's the most powerful figure (locally) of the same chantry that empowers the templars at every turn.
She might be acting the peacekeeper but her inaction lets Meredith crush mages more and more to the point that they were going to annul the mage circle, Anders or not.
Anders did the only thing he could, he gave mage everywhere a reason to fight instead of letting them wallow in a status quo that would inevitably crush them at some point.
100%. anders spent seven years in darktown healing refugees (for free!) and elthina had gold gilded statues at the chantry. she isnt an innocent bystander, she is actively okay with the status quo and her "inaction" is only the active choice of preserving it. kingdom of conscience type character: "Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded. Centrism isn't change -- not even incremental change. It is *control*. Over yourself and the world. Exercise it. Look up at the sky, at the dark shapes of Coalition airships hanging there. Ask yourself: is there something sinister in moralism? And then answer: no. God is in his heaven. Everything is normal on Earth." (-quote from disco elysium)
Thank you! You said this so much better than I could have.
@@exhumadora I loved Disco Elysium!
Elthina is a perfect example of how centrism enables fascism
@@carbodude5414 She is the personification of the paradox of tolerance!
Orsino supplied forbidden knowledge to Quentin, he also didn't tell anyone he was working with him. This is the person who ruthlessly murdered women and desecrated their corpses. He learned the harvester magic from Quentin, he probably also taught the kirkwall circle blood magic.
My feelings about Anders are complex, not only because of his controversial actions, but because his writer made some very problematic choices for him that have never sat well with me. She said she wrote him to be bipolar (or a fantastical equivalent) and that his Friendship/Rivalry paths were essentially designed to be "be kind and compassionate to him and you'll make him more delusional and coddle his mental illness" or "be cruel to him and he'll be more depressed but less delusional" which is... not great, as a mental health allegory. He also contradicts himself at multiple points whether or not Justice/Vengeance has a mind of his own, its own separate thoughts and feelings, or if they are completely merged as one. It even goes so far as to imply in the Rival path that you've convinced Anders not to go through with his plans, only for Vengeance to take over his body, leaving him completely unaware of what just happened after regaining control. The implication there is that Vengeance will make this happen regardless of Anders' wishes, even though immediately after the Chantry's destruction he'll go back to saying they are of one mind. His mutual hatred with Fenris is so overplayed to the point where they programmed him to approve of giving Fenris back to his master, even though that is entirely out of character as both a man who spent his entire life running away from captivity AND as a literal embodiment of justice. As his role is so central to the story of DA2, serving as a primary figure in the arguments for and against the abuse, oppression, and murder of mages...it really is a shame that he was not better written. He's one of my favorite characters, yet is weighted down by the flaws that could have been smoothed out if DA2 had more time to refine their writing.
I think they're meant to be in the process of becoming one person, or Anders is just deluding himself to deal with the trauma of what vengeance just did
I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU!! Holy shit, you have no idea how great it is to see more people that have looked in to this more than just by labeling Anders a monster and calling it a day.
For seven YEARS anders was surrounded by people either telling him he's fucking crazy or not acknowledging the madness surrounding him on a daily basis. Neither Varric or Isabela have the SPINE to say what's happening with the mages is despicable and it really feels like he's being utterly isolated should your hawke choose to go against him. He had to kill his lover after finding him tranquil, of COURSE the man is losing it and unraveling. I genuinely can't stand his writer for what she did to him. Apparently she based him off an ex of hers and put a lot of hate in to him. It wasn't fair. Anders could have been a better version of eren from attack on titan had his writer been of the right mind. It's disappointing that he's been reduced to just a crazy terrorist. It reminds me of how black people are treated in America when they riot.
Justice and Anders story is rather well played out, and it highlights the message of Spirits and Demons. A Demon is born when the mission of a Spirit is perverted or denied to it, Justice was a Spirit but Vengeance is him having become a Demon. Anders is a unique Abomination, but nonetheless an Abomination.
Justice was never justice, but vengeance all along. His views in Awakenings were always of the "eye for an eye" type, which is not what real justice is. I didn't realize it until I replayed it after DA2.
There ARE some cures to abominations in lore tho. Mainly in DAO you manage to free Connor by either dealing with or killing the demon possessing him in the Fade. Then again, at that point, the demon didn't morph Connor's body into anything different. Marethari does explain in DA2 that this cure is risky and it always leave some sequels on the possessed' soul.
An interesting video, but with a bit of a "both sides are wrong" problem, in my opinion.
Anders was absolutely right in his beliefs, and didn't "prove" anything, he accelerated what would have happened anyway (yes, killing innocents is horrible, no I don't support his act, but I do think I can understand it).
Templar's actions are basically the equivalent of kicking a dog every day to prevent it from biting someone, and when one day that dog flips completely and not only bites but kills someone, they say that proves it, and that they either should have kicked harder or should have killed the dog outright.
With a system rigged from the beginning, Orsino's efforts (and the efforts of Anders when he was a pacifist) were bound to fail.
The Templar institution needed to have a conscience for that to happen. They didn't.
To make any examination of the Thedas Mage conflict that ignores Old Tevinter and the Ancient Elves will be missing massive amounts of context.
The Andrastean Chantry was created in large part as a reaction to the Tevinter Magisters and their unmitigated creulty. Sacrifice lives in the thousands on little more than just a whim. Even in the modern more "civilized" Tevinter a magister might go and by a slave, cut their throat, and use their blood for a dazzling enchantment at tonights party as easily as one might buy a pig to roast and feed the guests.
The fear of mages is more than just paranoia. Is it even possible to have a society where your only guarantee the mage down the block won't take over your mind and make you do whatever he wants just that _he doesn't really feel like it?_ Orsino is referencing the reaserch of a man who kills your mother in DA2 and cuts off her head to make her into a corpse sex doll. Not because of oppression or desperation but essentially _just to see if he can._ Her life is a toy. Even if you've been helping Orsino all game he felt no need to inform you he kept that reaserch, let alone was studying it. In Veilguard where one powerful mage is able to unilaterally kill everyone on the planet just because he decided the benefits were worth the cost? Should any one person have that much power?
That's what I think makes Dragon Age special. Looking at the conflict as "mages are oppressed and need to rise up," is too simplistic. The story isn't about magic or muggles. It's about Power and the cycles that power creates. The Tevinter mages oppressed the unmagical which led to the Chantey and templars. The Templars oppressed the mages which led to Anders.
Anders isn't like the Templars , He IS the Templars. He and Meridith use all the exact same words, the same motives, eventhe same mitigating factor of a magical outside source they took in for power radically destabalizing their mindstate. "Maybe what I'm doing is harsh. Maybe it's even cruel. Maybe it'll even hurt innocents but it had to be done. It's the only way. There can be no compromise."
Like Sera says in Inquisition from the veiw of the person on the street a templar and a mage don't seem any different.
Whether it's a sword, a sovereign, a sermon, or a staff, the power of domination leads to corruption, then vengence, then a new domination.
That's one of my biggest gripes with Inquisition. Throughout the entire trilogy, the mage v templar conflict is set up perfectly. Instead of taking the ending to the most logical conclusion, it goes in a different direction with Corypheus, and the mage templar war takes a backseat.
It would have been so much more rewarding those years of development culminating in one big game.
Fighting for the rights of marginalized groups is _not_ counter-intuitive to the plight of the common, middle-to-low class person. The fight for basic rights is universal, not exclusionary
Saying otherwise is just standard fascist dogwhistle to create division among oppressed groups
@@carbodude5414 Damn man, You people like to spit so many buzzwords while dancing around the point. It's actually insane.
@@grizz7714 Ooh, someone's insecure about their intelligence
@@carbodude5414 Are You at least capable of addressing OP's argument? Can't You at least try?
Something to note in DA2 is that Orsino is in full contact with the serial-killing necromancer. It turns out that Meredith was right to distrust the mages, and Orsino would likely have led them all into madness and blood magic. The problem is that we get very little interaction with Orsino due to the game’s rushed development.
Thats what makes it great: having two extreme and awful choices and having to choose nontheless.
You can wish for an extreme society where you keep mages caged like animals like how the Qunari do, and face the risk of one escaping and causing havoc - one of the Arishok's mages escapes and destroys a human village and a whole dalish camp - or you can wish for a society where mages are free and tge dangers of blood magic are taught and known and still have bad people doing bad things causing chaos and gruesome murders.
In DA, mages are here to stay, and to keep people safe and free, there are scant solutions.
I feel like this essay is missing a huge plot point: Meredith's actions in the latter parts of DA2 (including the Rite of Annulment) were made under the unknowing influence of red lyrium. Like Varric's brother, it drove her to be cruel, paranoid, and eventually insane; to the point where the templars hesitate to obey her orders, and actually help you fight against her as the final boss if you side with them.
Unlike what the video might heavily imply, most templars (even the ones in Kirkwall) aren't loonies waiting to gonk mages at the drop of a hat. A few of them are, but most of them are more like jaded prison guards than ravenous extremists. Even the more zealous templars are often shown to have a good reason for being that way: in DA1, 2, and 3 we see mages (both circle and apostate) encounter difficulties great and small, and pull out blood magic and demons like it ain't no thing almost every time.
"Oh no, I got a hangnail, time to bargain with a pride demon!"
As inhumane as the templars can be (and sometimes are), we as players are shown over and over why mages need to be painted with that broad, overly-cautious brush. A mage that's possessed can do ungodly amounts of carnage before being brought down, and that power is seemingly always in reach, calling to all mages and waiting for a moment of weakness. I personally believe the writing always skews a little too far in making mages too much of a threat, rather than a "both sides have a point" situation Bioware was trying for.
Digging through the codex and taking the time to talk to certain people about Meredith still paints a very unflattering picture. Meredith has ALWAYS been dangerous and a little unstable. Even though you don’t even get to see what she looks like until the end of Act 2, her paranoia and ruthlessness hangs heavy over the events of the 1st act.
Thrask was one of the first big warning signs the player got about how Meredith is a tyrant and resorts to violence over dialogue. In the first act, a group of mages from Ferelden who had been on their way to Kirkwall’s circle manage to escape and fortify themselves in a cave. Meredith orders their immediate execution. Thrask finds the mage hideout first, and you can chose to either help him protect the mages, or you can go in and take them all down.
If you protect them, upon emerging from the cave more templars arrive. Thrask will TRY to reason with them, but it devolves into a fight. Thrask and Hawke leave no survivors and thus keep Thrask betrayal of the order a secret for the time being.
The red lyrium didn’t change her personality, it simply amplified it.
I'd agree with you if not for the fact Vivienne when finding out Cole mercy killed mages threw the blame for the entire mage rebellion on him. She balantly ignores the fact the compassion spirit that was Cole only manifested in the circle tower because mages were being locked up, tortured, and left to starve in cells by templars for no just reason. They weren't at risk and it was just corruption and abuse of power by templars
Look up in WoT what Meredith did to the previous viscount. She was allways a major dick. The mask just fell off.
DA2 is my favourite DA game, because female sarcastic Hawke is just another level, plus it has Varric.
I like DA2 because it's not about end of the world scenarios, but politics and social problems and conflicts . I find those often to be the more interesting stories. Though admittedly, DAO despite being end of the world, had some really great social conflicts and intrigues too.
Apart from the rushed ending - Orsino wasn't supposed to become an abomination, when Hawke sides with the mages and Anders handling was stupid: why would our local religious zealot Sebastian blame Hawke for not killing Anders, when the two authorities, who could do that, Aveline and Meredith, are standing right there? - and the reused dungeons, I really enjoyed DA2 and the dlcs.
I put the reused dungeon maps as meta for Varric narrating the story. As a surface dwarf, he probably would quip that all dungeons look alike to him. There’s a path, and there are rocks, and plenty of spiders or corpses walking about.
One thing I always was curious about in regards to Magic and mages in DA is a line Solas brings up in inquisition. He states that a result of the veil is a effect similar to the rite of tranquility. Apparently in the 'pre-veil' time people's emotions and spiritual connection with..........everything was......MORE. According to Solas, him living in the modern day world would be like a average person in this world living in a world with a bunch of Tranquil. I don't see this really brought up again but it would be a interesting concept to explore, the personality of people before the veil vs the people of the present with them appearing akin to 'tranquil' to people like Solas.
The biggest flaw that the mages have in the series is that most of the wizards you encounter in the 4 games + DLCs turn into demons, blood magic or unleash worse things into the world. Out of the companions and main characters only a few of them like the warden, Finn, the inquisitor and Vivienne are mages that come from a circle (Although the warden can use blood magic at some point). The others are a collection of apostates, maleficariums and abominations with the ones in DA2 being particulary bad.
Templars did nothing wrong
I would love a part 2 addressing changes in veilguard
That game shouldn't be mentioned unless as a cautionary tale.
Now this i've got to hear, but in the context of the lore, I love the magic system of Thedas. Sure, you can fire-lighting out your crack, BUT you are also vulnerable to be possessed by a demon and become a walking war crime. I love the dynamic of being all-powerful, but the ever-constant threat that a demon can whisper in your ear that, maybe, exploding everyone in your town would be pretty rad. Ultimately, because of all this, the Mages being either oppressed, or in the case of Tevinter, be the oppressors. You got two dynamics going on in Thedas, of two extremes.
This nuance of storytelling is unfortunately long lost in Bioware.
That's nit a "magic system" that's an elevator pitch.
@i.cs.z ....what?
@@lelouche25 It's not a system of any kind. It just a rough idea.
You raised great points about Dragon Age 2 and its brewing conflict between the mages and templars. I'm of the opinion that Dragon Age 2 was better written in retrospect than how it was initially perceived upon launch. And it's why I'm loathed to try and rank Origins, 2, and Inquisition in order of what was best or worse. Because each game changes radically each installment, the idea of which dragon age game is best is just dependent on... well, what are you after? Origins is a definite classic, Inquisition is an epic (albeit overwhelming and a bit bloated) of the 2010s games, but DA2? I've enjoyed it as a self-contained, small-scale story, where you're not playing as a character of your own making, but as an established, in-universe character you're taking the mantle of.
DA2 definitely suffered from its comparisons to Origins, because you went from "saving the world from the blight" to "petty political squabbles in a squalor of a town". But I liked how it set the scene with its worldbuilding with how magic has influenced the ideology in this world and how characters approach magic and those who wield it. It's been a while since I played DA2, so I can't remember if I had taken a more damning view with Anders compared to how I think you managed, but in retrospect, I think the Kirkwall Chantry should've exercised more restraint upon the templars. I don't know if I remember correctly, but the Chantry could be seen as more complicit with the templar's poor treatment of the mages, and Anders would've seen it that way. And it's not too far removed from today's politics where if you're viewed (as a public figure or a political figure) as not taking an active stand, you're complicit with (insert such and such here). And yes, there are so many nuances attached to that that people overlook in the heat of righteous indignation.
Back to DA2, I think I remember letting Anders live and fight alongside my Hawke to atone for his crimes (because I was loathed to kill a companion in that moment). Sided with the mages. Fenris joined the templars. But because my Hawke friendship-romanced Fenris, Fenris switched to the mages in the end, so, luckily I wasn't forced to off him either.
EDIT; And yes, I'm so looking forward to The Veilguard.
@@artbycarloangelo I agree 100%. I’m of the opinion if DA2 wasn’t rushed out the door by EA and given the time to cook it deserved it would’ve been truly fantastic. The story is all there and super complex, it doesn’t matter if it’s of a smaller scale because the story works and still has major impacts on the series. Glad you enjoyed the video! You raise some great points as well!
I feel like the second half of da2 is where the story really kicks in, and you start to realise the massive implications of the game on the world. But I gotta say that first quest where you basically do a bunch of side quests to get 50 gold together and go to the mines really made the first part of the game so slow and feel super inconsequential. Super good writing tho, and I found myself really seeing both sides of the templars and mages right. I definitely sided with the mages in the end tho aha, kinda identified with the mages more than templars.
@@davidnewman1456 now take my words with a grain of salt, as DA2 is my favorite. But I think that 1st part checks out. You start as a refugee. Why should anyone acknowledge you? The first part, is your character building connections from the ground up. A real rag to Riches narrative. The story would be dramatically different, and with different companions, if Hawke just started living in the manor off rip.(Why would a free marches noble ever be caught being seen in the undercity for example)
@ yea I definitely get what they were trying to do, but I feel like there is better ways to do that then a bunch of go her fetch that or kill this to demonstrate that aha. I did love DA2 really no hate to the game, I think it’s very underrated.
For all its flaws, DA2 respected player choice and meaningful decisions with actual consequences best.
Dealing with the Arishok, the fate of Bethany/Carver, Merrills eluvian, Isabella and the slaver ship, siding with Sister Petrice, deciding what to do with Anders after the chantry explosion. You almost need a wall chart to keep track of your choices and how they impact the story
I do understand why the mages needed to be somewhat watched they do wield unbelievable power but the templars basically locking them away like animals and treating them as such didn't help and then were surprised when they demanded freedom and stop being treated like monsters
That is what a lot of people sympathetic to mages point out. The Templars treat them like prisoners, render them tranquil or even slaughter them because they feel that giving mages even a bit of freedom will lead to a second Tevinter. So many mages decide to become everything they fear and create a society with themselves on top because it has to be better than what they've got at the moment. And if the Templars and the Chantry showed some kindness and leniency, then the Mage-Templar War might've never happened.
Before watching video: I dislike that many people in fandom treat mages as this "misunderstood minority" similar to ours in irl life
But last time I checked misunderstood minorities weren´t throwing 3000 degree fireballs and turning into ultrademons
they are more like mutants like the Xmen.
To paraphrase the Infamous series " a normal person has a bad day they wrap their car around a tree, a person with powers have a bad day the death toll reaches the double digits
@@Zezlemet what's the source of this quote?
@@SidheKnight the Infamous Games got PlayStation though don't remember the exact game
@@Keram-io8hv Congrats, you are easily susceptible to fascist propaganda
I bet you'd say the Federation in Starship Troopers are in the right because their enemies are giant bugs
There does seem to be reference in Origins at least that mages can be part of a circle and more or less travel freely in Ferelden with the first enchanters permission as long as the mage has passed the harrowing. So i dont think its fair to say mages are locked up for their entire lives necessarily.
Crazy this comes up in my recommended not a day after watching a video roasting Dragon Age Veilguard 💀
Fenris and Anders are the extremists in the party. They're personally affected by the situation too critically to be a part of a balanced negotiation. I think it's slick, and well-animated how quickly Meredith turns from a scowl into a motherly smile when she says she's sorry and thinks there's no other way; then quickly back to a scowling, "if you got a better idea let's hear it."
Textbook manipulator. Meredith wants a bubble bath and a glass of wine by 8pm, she doesn't have time for mages running around her city.
If anything Templar's in Dragon Age are far too lenient. Given that mages get their powers from the Fade, a volatile realm that is swamped with demons, & can't cast spells ex nihilo (out of nothing) regardless of the type of magic should already exclude them from civilization. Templar's are being super charitable to draw the line at blood magic & not everything else.
I love how great BioWare is at creating words and stories with so interesting and difficult moral decisions. One of the best parts of dragon age and it makes it so enjoyable and makes every decision feel so important. Great video! Fun game, not as good as origins I think but it really picks up in the second half.
I do wish you'd included more of the abuses the templars were inflicting on the mages. Tranquil are also much more docile and likely to follow commands, and the templars were absolutely taking advantage of mages made tranquil because they couldn't fight back.
Not to mention if you play a female mage in origins, Cullen is like, SUPER obsessed with her, and that's terrifying. Like... as a mage you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you reject a templar trying to come onto you, they can just accuse you of possession or blood magic and have you killed or made tranquil.
The whole mage vs Templars thing never made any sense to me in DA when the solution is so simple
Just have the circles of magi be schools instead of prisons where by law every magic born child has to attend a circle but are allowed to be visited and keep in contact with there families. Once a mage shows that they have the capability to control there magic then they should be allowed to leave maybe the circle could find them positions as court wizards or enchanters idk keep the Templars around as elite magic neutralizing security force that go after mages that are actually abusing there powers and lastly if a mage truly wishes it or is truly incapable of controlling there power then the rite of tranquility could be offered to them as either that or remain in the circle forever
How would that fix the problems tho?
@ what problem? The whole mage vs Templar war was based on mages wanting freedom and no longer wanting to be jailed for hat I wrote solves that
@@Jay3up Problem is that every mage is weak to possession. In the game even hihg ranking mages get possessed.
That’s basically how Tevinter works except the templars are more just a tool by the black chantry to conduct political action. Generally speaking, the rise of mages to all powerful positions in the imperium has soured the concept to all of southern Thedas. Since magic is inherently easy to abuse against common people. The games make it look so much easier to deal with them, but you got to remember a single possession can potential kill a city. Connors possession comes to mind. Possessions can be incredibly difficult to spot too. Wynne and Anders are both abominations. They have retained more of their personalities, but it indicates demons could do the same if desired. Passing the initial trials doesn’t guarantee safety ether. Most possessions are circumstantial. Tranquility is the only sure way to prevent it, and it looks like based on DAI lore. You need to be possessed by a spirit to get fixed. So, it’s not entirely a sure thing ether
This is pretty much how things are handled in Warhammer Fantasy's Empire of Man, minus the potential of the Rite of Tranquility. That said there's only one magical school in the Empire's capital of Altdorf and only human mages go to the Imperial Colleges of Magic. The elves have their own magical training system and humanity leaves them to it, same with the lizardmen and orcs. Also, humans in WHF can only safely channel one Wind of Magic without inevitable Chaos corruption and even relatively safe use of magic caries the risk of daemonic possession or simply exploding. You have to be really skilled and disciplined with magic to avoid those risks, but Imperial wizards/elven mages are important and respected members of society, even if the official Cult of Sigmar witchhunters look at them funny.
Dragon Age 2 made a smart decision making your sister Bethany a mage, so that your decisions weren’t always gonna be so clear-cut. I was anti-mage for the most part, but Bethany showed that not all mages in Kirkwall were crazy, so I found myself being a diplomat most of the time.
tl;dr The Chantry did nothing wrong.
Edgy jokes aside the story flip-flops between saying mages shouldn't be oppressed before pointing out those who distrust them have valid reason to do so (Blood magic mind control, the Tevinter Imperium, the tyrannical elven "gods", magic pretty much being a beacon for demons).
Because dragon age tries to press that there really isn’t a “right answer” in 2, all you can do is just pick a side
The Chantry in Kirkwall could not create peace. Elthina could barely keep Meredith in check, and should have been pushing for a new Viscount immediately after the events of Act 2. Nor could Elthina keep peace between the citizens and the Qunari, she needed Hawke to perform lip service when it should have been a joint-effort alongside the Viscount. A dagger in the dark would have been preferable, but she needed to go.
tl;dr Anders was right the whole time.
SOMETHING needed to be done. The incaction of the church and enabling of the templars, the ever growing paranoia and insanity of Meredith and the overall tension between mages and templas that was brewing the entirety of the game could not be resolved peacefully. Meredith had already started on the right of Annulment regardless of Anders' actions and she was ready to throw the witches into the fire. I really don't know why people are so insistent he doomed the mages when we've seen how useless and enabling the chuch and especially Elthina has been. A neutral stance is still a stance, and when that neutrality leads to genocide then it's no better than the swords that are actually beheading innocents anyway.
Anders just had the courage to do something. Fueled by rage, justice, vengeance and desperation after his lover was made tranquil, after watching the many mages he helped heal and hide be forced to turn to the blood magic he absolutely despises just to try and survive, after seeing these mages still fall to the templars swords, after hearing about the literal abuse (often times sexual) inflicted upon circle mages who couldn't say anything back lest they are slain or tranquilized. There was no solution without conflict (again, Meredith going ahead and getting the right set up prior to the bombing proves that). There was no forgiving the inaction and enabling of the church. SOMEONE needed to do something, and his justice/vengeance muddled brain and soul gave him the push he needed. What he did wasn't right, but neither was everything that was happened...and in a war, no matter how just, there will always be casulties and cruelties commited by all sides. There aren't real winners in a war, just survivors. Anders knew that and he did what he had to to survive.
It's important to acknoledge that his actions shaped the entirety of the world and led to the definitive betterment of mage lives all over and even possiblity of the fall of the circle/chantry oppresive leash structure they had going on. If not for his actions the mages of Kirkwall would have all been slain for nothing and the mages would still be opressed everywhere.
He could've gone about it a different way? Yes. But again, he wasn't entirely himself anymore and the story wouldn't be as shocking otherwise. At the end of the day, this is still a game. A written story. Some things are done a certain way for the shock value and that's fine. Besides a more clean and less tragic event wouldn't make the following decisions that impactul and it wouldn't be the morally grey game we know Dragon Age to be. (until Veilguard)
@@fallenprometheusExcept Anders would have gotten better results and would have had mages on his side if he blew up the Templar headquarters instead of the Chantry. He was practically protected just by being a friend of the Champion so you can't tell me he couldn't slip that bomb in the Templar headquarters
@Drums_of_Liberation My guy... there was NO TEMPLAR HEADQUARTERS. Their HQ was IN the chantry and in the circle. So yeah, he DID slip the bomb in the Templar headquarters, in a sense. Besides, from a writing standpoint, even if they tried other avenue like just the assassinating of Elthina, it would not have had that much shock value, hence why they went the bombing route.
I like how everyone ignores the elephant in the room when it comes to mage. A society with free mages is mage lead society when you look at the theadas history. I mean why wouldn’t it be mages are literally better then everyone else there no computation. I don’t know what the answer is but I know it isn’t free mages if you want a better society in the long run.
They aren't better though. I wouldn't trust Solas to run the grey wardens. I wouldn't trust Solas to run the seekers either. Being a mage doesn't make someone better. More powerful sure but in alot of cases skilled fighters regularly outpace them in combat. Sera literally kill steals from Solas with a bow.
That's just not true.
Lets count societies with free mages:
Ancient elves, everyone has magic so it can't really be evaluated. Banned from this list.
Tevinter. One free mage society that fits the bill.
Rivain: nope.
Avvar: nope.
Modern elves: hmm the keeper leads them, but it's ain't a magiocracy, lets give them half a point.
1.5/4 free mage societies being ruled by magic.
@ access to make make you legitimately better the most people in Thedas. Simply due to the ability that mages have access to, like healing, power, and control. Mages would easily replace any nobility by the very nature of what makes someone a noble.
@kenpachiramasama1139 And yet, Rivain, Dalish, Avvar, heck even Nevarra. What you say will 100% happen didn't happen in most places.
Mages will inevitably take over and opress people is provably false.
@kenpachiramasama1139 Not all mages can heal. It takes skill to display all those abilities. More over all those possible abilities comes with the risk that most mages are susceptible to just being possessed by demons. It's honestly a balanced exchange considering the risks
Whats the music playing?
Midnight Astrology - Underbelly and Ty Mayer from the TH-cam Studio audio library
Anders was right the whole time. SOMETHING needed to be done. The incaction of the church and enabling of the templars, the ever growing paranoia and insanity of Meredith and the overall tension between mages and templas that was brewing the entirety of the game could not be resolved peacefully. Meredith had already started on the right of Annulment regardless of Anders' actions and she was ready to throw the witches into the fire. I really don't know why people are so insistent he doomed the mages when we've seen how useless and enabling the chuch and especially Elthina has been. A neutral stance is still a stance, and when that neutrality leads to genocide then it's no better than the swords that are actually beheading innocents anyway.
Anders just had the courage to do something. Fueled by rage, justice, vengeance and desperation after his lover was made tranquil, after watching the many mages he helped heal and hide be forced to turn to the blood magic he absolutely despises just to try and survive, after seeing these mages still fall to the templars swords, after hearing about the literal abuse (often times sexual) inflicted upon circle mages who couldn't say anything back lest they are slain or tranquilized. There was no solution without conflict (again, Meredith going ahead and getting the right set up prior to the bombing proves that). There was no forgiving the inaction and enabling of the church. SOMEONE needed to do something, and his justice/vengeance muddled brain and soul gave him the push he needed. What he did wasn't right, but neither was everything that was happened...and in a war, no matter how just, there will always be casulties and cruelties commited by all sides. There aren't real winners in a war, just survivors. Anders knew that and he did what he had to to survive.
It's important to acknoledge that his actions shaped the entirety of the world and led to the definitive betterment of mage lives all over and even possiblity of the fall of the circle/chantry oppresive leash structure they had going on. If not for his actions the mages of Kirkwall would have all been slain for nothing and the mages would still be opressed everywhere.
He could've gone about it a different way? Yes. But again, he wasn't entirely himself anymore and the story wouldn't be as shocking otherwise. At the end of the day, this is still a game. A written story. Some things are done a certain way for the shock value and that's fine. Besides a more clean and less tragic event wouldn't make the following decisions that impactul and it wouldn't be the morally grey game we know Dragon Age to be. (until Veilguard)
They butchered the mage class in Inquisition and Veilguard.
Na bro, inquisition mages were sick! Origins mages especially felt like an old mmo. Nothing against that just a little bit boring.
@@davidnewman1456 true inquisition mages were really great. Idk why others think otherwise but they have thier Opinion I guess
I thought it was disappointing how the support class of mages gradually vanished until it seemingly disappeared completely in Veilguard. I always like to play as a healer, and Origins definitely had the most variety when it came to supporting spells.
Personally, what stroked me the wrong way was how mages were restricted to only elemental spells in Inquisition. Specializing as an elementalist, healer, or a crowd controlling blood mage was just impossible now. What I loved about Origins gameplay with mages is that mages were extremely versatile. And though they were nerfed a bit in 2, they still managed to keep that versatility to an extant.
Yep, both with mechanics and repeatedly retconned lore. It started in DA:2 but really snowballed from Inquisition. It's such a pity the new writers decided to turn all three major camps - Mage, Templar and Grey Warden - into such caricatures. The second they decided to make Mages nothing but killing machines and remove healing magic, then completely ignore the demystifying of blood magic that was included over Origins to DA:2, the Mages basically became boogie men where only the 'chosen ones' are 'safe' for polite society.
I think the most glaring problem with Mages in the DA franchise, is they marketed them as essentially slaves and victims, but simultaneously portrayed them as megalomaniacal children who "just can't help themselves". It made them sympathetic with no way to truly side with them (especially after DA:Awakenings). I desperately wanted to HELP Anders (Sorry the "terrorist" thing is purely an American sentiment... He's a freedom fighter and war was literally the only way to get action against the circle hierarchy). , but even back then the real world politics seeped in and we weren't allowed to actively help him. We couldn't help him get free of his retconned servitude to a spirit that was never meant to possess him in the first place. We couldn't help him end the chantry or Templars in Kirkwall, despite having absolute PROOF of their utter unforgivable corruption. Despite several in-game lore entries and quests, blood magic was marketed as "TeH BiG EEEEEviL"tm. Canonically that's just not true, but each game dug mages further and further down into the "tortured and imprisoned for their own good" pigeonhole.
I mean, Inquisition gave us a hypothetical way of curing tranquility in the same way that previous games/books implied a way to cure the Calling, but nope. Conveniently retconned out.
As much as I freaking adore this franchise, the Mages and Grey Wardens after Awakening are REALLY poorly written with little to no respect for the Original lore. It makes BOTH camps seem extremely unrelatable and caricatured.
Side note, Anders was ALWAYS a radical freedom fighter. "All I want is a banquet, A harem, and the power to rain down lightning on every templar in creation". - Anders, DA:A. I'll never not be pissed that we couldn't HELP him bomb that den of dogma and servitude. It was incredibly lazy writing to NOT allow for that option, especially for a Mage Hawk. He DID get justice, Hawke could spare him, Cullen could let them leave, and the war was NECESSARY.
I wish I could upvote this more than once.
Don't forget that "Freedom Fighter" is just as meaningless term as "Terrorist". Using the same logic, Templars are also "Freedom Fighters" because magic is by it's very is oppressive. So protecting the little people against the historic and cultural oppression of mage hierarchy is a worthy goal.
@@grizz7714 No, a freedom fighter (in it's literal translation rather than its Americanised tranaslation) is someone who fights for the freedom of oppressed people. Anders was kept in solitary confinement for a YEAR for the crime of wanting to escape from his prison that he was kept in and tortured since childhood. You only have to play the games (I mean you can read the lore items for more, but seriously you don't need to) to learn beyond doubt that their "protectors" r^pe, lobotomise, enslave and torture Mages and the Mages are forced to just suck it up. Trying to end that regime IS freedom fighting. What's being DONE to them is terrorism. It's a wonder they're not ALL being possessed.
The Templars are equivalent to real world n^zis in their PR and embracing of atrocities. I mean look at Kirkwall. There's a reason all the Mages went mad and turned to demons for help. Look at the Lake Calenhad circle where Anders came from - The one where Templars were constantly either belittling mages or hitting on them at every turn. The one that was going to be preemptively annulled just because the head templar had a snit.
A terrorist is someone who deliberately mass murders for the sake of mass murder. Anders hated Templars - with perfectly good reason - but he was first and foremost creating a rallying point for Mages to take back their freedom. He was absolutely in the right. Stop thinking like an american flashing back to 9/11 and think about what the game is ACTUALLY portraying. There are leagues more Mages maimed, tortured, enslaved and killed by Templars than average joes on hte street harmed by Mages. And let's not forget that the Templars are ALL religious zealots. It has NOTHING to do with "protecting the innocent". It's about godly control.
And not in small part about the Templars compliance due to lyrium addiction.
@@noctoi For someone that dislikes American-Centric views like You, assuming every person You talk to is an american is THE MOST American thing You can do...
but anyway... Adressing Your "arguments".
*"Anders was kept in solitary confinement for a YEAR for the crime of wanting to escape from his prison that he was kept in and tortured since childhood."*
He literally tried to escape the circle. Some form of punishment should be in order. Now, torturing him for this is way too much, and puting restrictions on the Templars treatment and punishing of mages would be a good thing. But You're not arguing for that. You're arguing that the circle is fundamentaly immoral. Bringn up the poor treatment of mages by the hands of Templars is irrelevant since You would oppose the cricle's existence even if the mages were better treated. Unless I'm mistaken about that?
*"There's a reason all the Mages went mad and turned to demons for help."*
That's the reason the circle exists in the first place. They do it now mostly under the pretense of being the oppresed group, but it is stablished extensively what mages can do with no retrictions, like Tevinter.
*"he was first and foremost creating a rallying point for Mages to take back their freedom."*
What good did 9/11 did for the middle-east again?
*"There are leagues more Mages maimed, tortured, enslaved and killed by Templars than average joes on hte street harmed by Mages."*
Just because the circle exists. Again, we see what mages can do with no restrictions on their power. There's literally an entire religion based on that alone. And even with all that, mages like Uldred or Quentin are able to do massive amount of damage all by themselves. Because when power is concentrated on a few, it causes imbalance.
You're the one not thinking about what the game is trying to protray if You think is a black and white conflict.
@@grizz7714 Never said I dislike it dude, I'm saying that you're viewing this situation - a situation based in an alternate world modeled after medieval Britain/European history - through a modern, post 9/11 lens.
Like I said, this situation is far more akin to N^si Germany than to modern terrorism.
I explained the point of view pretty damn extensively, so I'm not sure why you automatically jumped on that one point... Why is it that the automatic focus is on the assumption that I'm being "racist" rather than that you're being situationally ethnocentric?
Mages get a generally piss-poor lot on the whole of Thedas's politics. In Ferelden, pretty much anything done too mages is considered automatically justified. And I do mean ANYTHING. Cole's original self in Inquisition references some of the horrible things done to young mages imprisoned in circles.
Sure, there are a few good reasons to be cautious about them, but it almost always devolves into 'mages must be contained'.
Saying Ander's is wrong because he caused the deaths of innocents would be to say any act of rebellion against oppression is wrong.
All forms of resistance if done to the point they are effective will cause the suffering of innocents either directly or indirectly.
This is not to say whether anders is right or wrong, just that the specific argument is flawed
Knowing that Meredith had already called for the Right of Anullment by the time the chantry decided to act as arbiters adds another layer to what the mages are supposed to be doing at that point.
That the game offered so much ammunition to both sides to the point of guaranteed conflict is amazing.
Dragon Age drew alot of early influence from Warhammer 40k, apparently.
That makes a lot of sense.
The Fade is like the Warp.
Mages are like Psykers; both are born with their abilities that manifest at some point and both must be sanctioned by a governing authority to use their powers and are sent to train. Otherwise they risk possession by demons from the Warp/Fade. Both go through training and must pass tests and those deemed too weak willed to resist possession and fail are killed, by Templars or sent to feed the Emperor of Mankind.
I didn’t even notice. Damn.
@@Hma-q2g coming from Warhammer, it was the first thing i noticed of Thedas magic system. And it is great to balance it.
At least attempted.
Visiting this after Veilguard. Correction, DA2 is not the worst in the series anymore.
It was never the worst. No Dragon Age game was bad until Traashguard.
I kept Anders alive so he could make some kind of atonement for what he did. Plus if he’s dead he’d only end up a martyr.
Settings like dragon age are why i think that we should see firearms in some medieval settings, Basic ones like muskets and blunderbuss's.
@@mikemerchant9242 if you haven’t played it already, Greedfall kind of melds some basic firearms into a medieval magic setting, tho it’s not super similar to Dragon Age.
Never use an apostrophe to pluralize. The plural of blunderbuss is blunderbusses.
@@NeverUseAnApostropheoh my god who care's? Its a TH-cam comment's section not an English paper. Feckin grammar nazi's.
While I think this is overall a reasonable analysis of the situation in DA2, I do want to make an argument against the portrayal of Elthina here. While she certainly talks the talk of the reasonable middle ground, she does not back it up in terms of her actions. This is largely to be expected, as she is the highest ranking representative of the Chantry in the city and the Templars are an arm of the Chantry.
While she is certainly saddened to an extent by the state of the mages in the city, every time she gets involved her role amounts to “stop arguing and go back to your tower/barracks for a while” and the abuses mages suffer only worsen. She stops arguments on her front steps, but is incredibly permissive for someone who claims to disapprove of the most extreme templar actions *when she herself has power over them that she refuses to employ*.
Furthermore, Merideth had been the de-facto civil leader in Kirkwall for many, many years. She was involved in the overthrow of the last Viscount when he tried to expel the Templar Order from the city, after which Elthina herself promoted Merideth to knight commander. Merideth then INSTALLED THE NEXT VISCOUNT and threatened him implicitly with the *shattered signet ring* of his predecessor, with a note reading “his fate need not be yours”.
All this while Elthina seemed extremely happy to live in a city where the chantry now held all the de-facto power in the day to day affairs. Either she was utterly ignorant of these circumstances (which is troubling in and of itself) showing an utter failure of responsible oversight, or she knew either implicitly or explicitly what had occurred and approved of it.
She was not powerless; she had the authority to call on the military might of the larger Chantry to help her reassert control of a rogue templar branch if that is what had occurred. To what little credit I give her, she did deny the Rite of Annulment to Merideth, even if it only meant Merideth went over her head to try and obtain it anyway (and we shall never know how the central Chantry would have answered that request). It seems far far more likely that Elthina was content with the ever-tightening stranglehold the Templars exerted over the mages in their (supposed) care - so long as it didn’t escalate to mass-murder or shouting in the streets.
To say that Anders made peace impossible ignores the fact that peace had not existed for the mages of Kirkwall the entire time we see them; he made it impossible for the status-quo of ever-increasing casualties to stay as quiet and unobtrusive as the Chantry wishes. Though his methods are very debatable, he was correct that the situation there was incredibly unsustainable, and that the mass-murder of all mages in the city was a when, not an if
Edit: I do also wish briefly to take issue with the way the ending is framed here as a final issue. The framing of the choice as “do you help the Templars who feel they have justification, or the mages who might be killed” Is a deeply sanitised version of the reality. The choice is between aiding a mass murder that the Templars already wanted to commit, on the population that they are the jailers and overseers of, for the actions of one mage who is not even affiliated with the circle that they have authority over - or to try and help those who about to be murdered by their lifelong wardens regardless of their involvement with the specific incident in question. That is not an equal choice, and to ignore the power dynamic between the circle and the Templars robs the sicuation of its most damning elements.
Who kills more? A mage or a king? Magic as the route of all evil ignores that those with power still kill more people. Dorian’s comment that mages in the south will become like tavinter in inquisition made me think “yea whoever has power has the power to abuse it and likely will”
And at the end merideth was already going to murder all the mages so blaming it on Anders is simply an excuse. That said Anders target really sucked, he should have targeted the real enemy not the chantry which, while complicit, was actually trying in vein to keep the peace. He should have blown up the templars with merideth inside.
I actually think the devs did Anders dirty there, why would he not target his enemy and instead give his enemy an excuse to attack the mages forcing them to fight. It really makes no sense, the bomb makes sense the target doesn’t. Instead he should have targeted the templars but they had already left to get to the circle or something. Would have made so much more sense to his character. It really felt like the devs were just trying to push “everyone is evil” instead of actually looking at what someone would really do in that situation. His desperation was believable though.
Thanks for this! It made me remember why I loved DA:O, and gave me appreciation of DA2 that I haven't played.
haha that first sentence aged like a rotten corpse
I HATED how the only way you can play the game with your sister alive in Kirkwall is to NOT be a mage. They should have made it a choice like they did in the first Mass Effect game with Ashley and Kaiden. Rather then locking it based on your class. Also, nothing was going to save the mages. Not since Meredith got her hands on the Corrupted Icon which she forged into a sword. Even if Anders hadn't done what he did, she still would have demanded the Rite of Annulment. Her mind was already polluted, and it wasn't mages who did it.
She would have found an excuse to get the Rite even without the Red Lyrium idol. It was well established that she was a psychopath from the get go.
Like what they did to andraste
To the people saying that Mages should be locked up because they'd feel marginally less safe in their presence
... Thanks for showcasing how easily susceptible you are to fascist propaganda. Like, it wasn't even a difficult litmus test but you all somehow failed it spectacularly
'Marginally' less safe? A mage is a person that has a metaphorical bomb strapped to him at all times, and can have abilities that can mess with your mind, control your body, or just straight up 'unalive' a city block. Imagine walking through a town but every mage was instead a person with a bomb vest carrying a small armories worth of rockets and guns. yeah, they don't PLAN on having the bomb go off (cause they like living too), and they say they aren't a threat, (to you cause they clearly are a threat to anyone trying to mess with them), but all it takes is one small mistake and- BAM, no more villiage/town/CITY, -lest you don't remember what Connor almost did to Redcliff, and he was just 1 child mage.
@MasterHellion300 Exhibit A
@carbodude5414 I noticed you just implied I wasn't wrong, just that I said something you don't want to hear.
@@MasterHellion300 🤓🤓🤓
@@carbodude5414 Define "fascism" without ambiguity (it can't be mistaken for something else) & then explain how that is anyway relevant to this topic.
honestly anders is the best insert character i've ever seen in video games
"good or evil doesn't matter, they're don't deserve to be locked up" sounds like someone?
and after that, dozen blood mages went rampage uncontrollable, even if you siding with mages you still gonna encounter abomination along the way. even his fellow mages despise his action and desert him after the event.
the mages didn't hate circle tower, they hate abusive templar
dragon age 2 was my first game in the series in it was great and is my all time favorite one in list of countless games i played and it got me interested the prior one and yes after playing origins in the perspective of origins it was indefinitely a huge dissapointment cause that ones just a legend among games on of the very best i ever played but it still holds a place to my heart when i dont compare to ortgins or even if i do it was still and acceptable sequel for the tiem being when you knew that the development time was very short and still to come with such an amazing game it deserved praise inquisition somehow really didnt interest me because of all that sexual or cheery greeny stuff theme they went on for somehow took away the interest not to mention an extremely unpolished buggy gameplay for 3pl a game but from what i saw on youtube the story seemed good enough even though it felt that it was moving away from the original concept somehow and now dreadwolf its indeed the dread that i ddint wanted to face that came true anyways its always good to see when dragon age 2 gets soem exposure ,always recommend to play it at least once and it has greay replay value that you dont see it this days if you can accept soem of the repetetiveness
I'm not going to lie, in my first run I took the "I hope both sides lose" policy, executing Anders and siding with the templars on assumption that there is no way we're leaving Meredith in charge, nor that she gives up her power without a fight
Ultimately circles are necessary - power corrupts and ultimate power corrupts ultimately, a 1st level mage can incinerate a person on a whim, high level mages are sheer forces of nature and even that assumes total lack of demons, which will naturally make mages seize power by force.
In the lore itself Tevinter Empire is literally a mage dictatorship ran by slavery and ruled with terror - magic is not common enough in the setting to produce valid opposition to potential alliance of power thirsty mages and even templars, sacrificing their health, lifespan and partially free will undergo lifelong lyrium addiction, imagine the only force capable of contesting magical terrorists or dictatorship is made of people willingly becoming crack junkies for the sake of others and even then a single mage giving in to demons will require them to go 10v1.
If you need to choose between multiple evils with no good solution in sight picking the lesser evil is the moral good - a magic prison system allowing 99,9% of people peaceful lives or system of freedom with a new abomination massacre in any bigger town every month and risk of slavery and dictatorship ran by mages supplying their power with blood of unwilling donors?
And sure, Origins circle should be the standard with relative freedom, peace and tranquility being used only as punishment for blood magic or voluntarily for those who fear the Harrowing as TBH it was only with Loghain stirring the pot crap hit the fan while Meredith was an insane zealot but let's not pretend Anders wouln't become a terrorist if he entered a city with different templar commander.
DA:O 1st playthrough - pro mage
every other game/every other playthrough - kill all mages
I find the argument mages are dangerous flawed because its not like normies arent dangerous, i could commit arson just as easily as a mage. Theres also multiple ways to resist magic in universe.
And the gameplay doesn't help this. You can say all day abominations are this and that dangerous when we carve them up like cake.
You actually couldn't do it as easily. For arson you need tools, mages could do it more easily.
Anders sux
@@Ravi9A I romanced him in my game, which gave a very interesting spin in the experience. I actually quite liked him, although I obviously did not agree with him.
I always find the mage vs Templar situation to be forced. So the story that results is .. boring. It's a no win scenario contrived to make either side look bad. It goes against how I like to play good v evil by making me an accessory to evil no matter how I play
are you a mage sympathizer sir
right i see alot of comments which to me seems to focus on all the harm magic can do and i wont pretend they cant do damage cause they most deff can do and alot of it in fact but as a staunch follower of mage freedom and ppl need to stop being soo afraid of cause of all the amazing things it can do im gonna outline a few problems with protrayign mages as the only ones who can for example do what anders did first of all im gonna qoute solas: (or try to i forget how exactly he phrased it forgive me) magic like anything is a tool and how it is used is highly dependant on the user and there is the first bit by havign such extreme and harsh measures for mages u will create faar more radicalises mages willing to do evil and become evil purely to get away from it and be free but since this radicalises them that will eventually be corrupted and will result in someone just grasping for power screw who it hurts cause most ppl wouldnt hesitate to hurt him/her for no other reason than a birth thing and thus they have no reason to care about if they hurt ppl this is human nature
the second part is anyone can do pretty much what anders did okay the only reason they dont is cause 99% of ppl in thedas aside from the qunari and technically tevinter essentially worships the chantry and the maker soo no reason to hurt them and the qunari whatever else they might be are not terrorists and have bigger concerns than jsut blowing up a church and tevinter again they have bigger concerns than jsut a chantry building however there is an argument that mages are more likely to come into the kind of thing that can do that and u wouldnt be wrong but the thign is anders didnt use magic in what he did this was more alchemical than magic being involved he might have infused with with a little magic to add to the thign but anders himself didnt do this on his own cause the amount of power for a mage to do this is staggering and most likely he would need to resort to blood magic and alot of "mysterious" disappearances of innocent ppl which he didnt do. basically what im trying to say if someone wants to do what anders did or do the kinda damage or relatively close to it in DA there is nothing stoppign u. as a wise man once said where there is a will there is a way.
the point is the more u villainize someone for any reason the more likely that person will become exactly what u fear for example in narnia prince caspian there is a line when lucy tries to talk to one of the bears but the bear is hostile the dwarf said after those ppl came and treated them like animals the more like animals they became and stopped talking and thus became how bears act in the real world. so by treating mages with disdain and disgust and hatred because u assume them to be evil they will become evil well most likely not always but its faaaar more likely to happen than if u didnt treat magic or mages with that kinda thign basically its a self fullfilling prophecy so instead of mages beign used to help the nation become strong and powerful and great it can be more of a detriment rather than a boon cause ppl need to focus more on the destructive side to survive.
and that in a nutshell is teh problem also btw the only problem with tevinter is the slavery and maybe too big a fan of snakes and horrible taste in clothes but all of that can easily be solved with a leader that knows what he is talking about and is smart and capable and set some restrictions but still loose and will mages have freedom but merely some thigns to preserve whats best for the nation and not the individual. aka they need a new archon and get rid of the magisterium cause honestly that entire thing is waaay too corrupt and the magisters are beyond help at this point cause all they care about is power screw who pays the price for that.
mean anders was right whit amount abuse so on how long do u tink peace going last no would be war ofc mage fight thoot nail fight deam cantry and it tamplars
I have a lot of problems with Anders over the course of DA2. Mainly little things like him commenting how shocked he is that any mage would be evil (when hunting the serial killer), which is ridiculous. He also approves if you sell Fenris out to the slavers, which I find deeply hypocritical and effed up.
That said, the Chantry is an oppressive organization, and Elthina very intentionally refused to take any action to prevent the abuses that were being committed against mages in Kirkwall. Word is also that there were not very many people in the Chantry other than Elthina at the time of the explosion. I'm on Anders' side in regard to that.
Regarding Justice, when I replayed Awakening, it really looked to me like "justice" became Vengeance the moment he came into the real world. He was berating Anders for not acting against the mages' oppressors when Anders at the time said he just wanted to be left alone. My hot take: Anders did NOT corrupt Justice. Justice was already Vengeance. So when they joined, Vengeance corrupted Anders, and blamed Anders for that, which is why Anders believed it was his own anger that caused the situation.
I always prefer to play as rogues or fighters so I support Templars in Dragon Age world.
Mages are not dangerous just because of blood magic. They are dangerous because they can use magic and kill many innocent people in seconds while others would have to use swords and daggers or bows to do the same damage to civilians in a longer span of time. Mages are dangerous because in the end they are just portals for spirits and demons to come to Dragon Age world and no truly knows how that work or how to control that or if there is even a way to control that. In the end there is a big chance that ALL the mages will sooner or later become abominations and not a single mage will die from an old age.
Well I’m a catholic and thus unashamedly biased the chantry is always right and even when they are wrong they are right
Good thing the opinions of people who turn a blind eye to their priests diddling kids are invalid. Not like you'd be valued in the Chantry anyway Darryl. You'd just be a cleric with no say in policy or a crack head knight who abuses people for their next fix.
Cool video
We only see the side where the mage are being beaten and not the mage lord that enslaved the powerless.
If only the newer games had the bravery to explore their own setting.
imo, dragon age games gets worse with each new iteration, yes, I quite enjoyed DA:II, biggest gripe was that I was locked into being a human (to mee atleast), whereas most thinked it was the layout being in a single city, wich I actually quite liked looking back, even thoug it was an annoyance at first, I actually though a few of the "new" places in both inquisition and veil guard could've used a more fleshed out arc, orjust a longer story like da2 set in them, to flesh them out with more lore and feel, since while they looked nice, and layout was better than DA2(for the most part) they still are repetitive in the layout same as DA2(wich tbf origins was aswell somewhat) but I quite liked the familly in dragon age setting for the story in DA2, all playing out in this one city, wished it was bigger city though.
To the people commenting that Ferelden was conquered by a mage heavy faction and that's why they're so anti-mage: that's not how power or conquest works. Imagine if a sword/bow civilization was conquered by another one using guns, and the sword/bow one became fanatically anti-gun after the conquest is ended. That would be insane right? What really happens is that historically, the civilization who were missing the thing that made them lose spends enormous amounts of time and money to get that thing. They might not always be good at it, but they definably know that they need it in case people come back.
Ferelden _should_ be going crazy getting every bit of magical technology they could get their hands on in order to stand against future aggression.
That'd be like if Japan was anti-nuclear bomb, oh wait.
I am going to disagree with your summary of Merrill here.
Spoilers if you haven't played the first three games.
What you described is a reasonable conclusion to draw when you've only played Origins and DA2, but Inquisition teaches us more about spirits in such a way that it actually validates most of the things Merrill was saying. Solas explains that when spirits interact with the physical world, they are influenced by it. They become demons because the world corrupts them. His friend who was a Wisdom spirit became a Pride demon when forced to fight. In one of the expansions, we get to know the Avvar and learn that they train their mages by having them join with a spirit, who eventually leaves them. The spirit does not become a demon, and the relationship is symbiotic.
So, here's what it actually looks like to me. Merrill interacted with a spirit. Not a demon. No one around her would believe her or listen to, much like Cassandra of Troy (cursed by Apollo, able to predict the future but never to be believed). Her Keeper eventually chooses to sacrifice herself to try to save Merrill, but IMO it is her actions, and her closed mind, that turned the spirit into a demon, dooming herself and shattering Merrill's aspirations in the process. I believe that with what the lore has told us, if the Keeper had not intervened, we would have met a Wisdom spirit instead of a Pride demon, in Merrill's final quest, and the things she'd been saying throughout the game would have been proven right.
It's is short for it is. Its is possessive.
Partner 🏳🌈?
EEWWWWWWWWW
to be fair... Kirkwall is a city state and blah blah blah. So Kirkwall is its own independent thing but also not really. Kirkwall does have a Chantry and a templar order BUT it behaves similiarly more or less like its own chapter in a way. While there are templars out and about in the overall world of dragon age, The templars in Kirkwall don't 100% reflect the rest of the templars throughout the world itself.
Also, the guards and templars had signs of corruption to a certain extent and even the Chantry had its own betrayer who was trying to cause trouble with the Quanari and the player character.
Overall the second game was... of "poor quality" when compared to the first. So if anything, i would say that because the writing was a bit worst and blah blah blah, that it was the cause for these issues and problems moving forward.
all in all, the fact is they were pressed for time so they lean HARD into the whole "mages vs templars" thing. They REALLY wanted you to side with the Mages. It is clear that the Mages are the "correct Choice, while the templars are the "evil choice", for lack of a better word.
ok m done lol my bad
its
Let's be honest, doa 2 is 2/5 game
@@diobrando6177 3.5/5 or 4/5 at the lowest
God dayum, dragon age 2 looks like trash, it's even worse than I remember