You should have @Mount Athos and Aquinas Fellowship on your show. He's done a ton of leg-work here, digging through the primary, Orthodox sources. He's also free from the apologetical-polemical noise we find online on this topic. Also, excellent response from Dr. Spencer on the E/E around the 34:00 minute mark!
Great discussion, Pat. Commenting as a Thomist, I say that Suarez in his Metaphysical Disputations refutes the extrinsic model both from the Bible and natural reason. So does the great Thomist theologian of 16th century, Sylvester of Ferrara. St. Thomas throughout his corpus, Summa theologiae, Summa contra Gentiles, De potentia, De veritate, commentary on Dionysius, his different letters explicitly says that God's action is not an action that terminates in the patient. Rather, His action is numerically one, formally immanent and only virtually (according to power) is transient). From a Thomistic point of view, extrinsic model is a rejection of God's absolute transcendence. It leads to many problems, one of which is the problem of eternality of the world. If God's action is extrinsic, and it terminates in the patient, then either God acts from all eternity or temporally. If eternity, then the world itself has to be eternal, because an extrinsic transient action necessarily proceeds from the agent and terminates in the patient and the effect or term of a transient action has to be simultaneous. If he acts temporally, then we have a temporal agent. There are many other arguments that can be said from a Thomistic point of view as Fr. Lagrange points out in his works. A Thomist cannot accept the extrinsic model if the person really wants to be faithful to St. Thomas and Dominican theologians. To put it simply, extrinsic model for us Thomists treats God as a created agent.
I'd need to see the actual quotes because it sounds like you might be misunderstanding Aquinas. On the eternality issue, Aquinas explicitly affirms that God wills from eternity, and I dont see how it could be any other way. If God is eternal then if he wills something then it is willed from eternity, because He is in eternity! This does not entail that the universe is beyond time (which is what eternity means as applied to God, so if you dont mean that then youre using two meanings of the term "eternal") nor does it entail that the universe has an infinite past, so what's the issue?
@@TheBrunarr Exactly, And we all agree that God's willing is eternal but universe isn't eternal because his at of willing is immanent and does not issue outside him. Argument follows if God's willing was extrinsic (transient). however, St Thomas and his followers have ALWAYS rejected that God's action is extrinsic. I'm not misunderstanding St. Thomas. I'm simply following his words and words of his followers which are very consistent on this issue, God can have no extrinsic action according to Thomists.
@12:30 Atheists will, of course, reject this dilemma. It's rather like saying that we must accept 1+1=5 because, otherwise, 1+1 must= 3. Rather, they assert , there is some other answer yet unknown that is the correct answer not including God.
Really loved my chat with Dr. Spencer, and hope you all did, as well. Here's a link to his (must get) book: amzn.to/3QKPfii
You should have @Mount Athos and Aquinas Fellowship on your show. He's done a ton of leg-work here, digging through the primary, Orthodox sources. He's also free from the apologetical-polemical noise we find online on this topic. Also, excellent response from Dr. Spencer on the E/E around the 34:00 minute mark!
It would be amazing to have a discussion between Dr Spencer and Dr Kerr on this issue!
Can you make a stream about Trinity and divine simplicity? and the arguments for people who say it doesn't work?
See my stream with Dr. James Dolezal from several weeks back. On this topic.
1:10:49 Mark Spencer - Necessary Existence book
Great discussion, Pat.
Commenting as a Thomist, I say that Suarez in his Metaphysical Disputations refutes the extrinsic model both from the Bible and natural reason. So does the great Thomist theologian of 16th century, Sylvester of Ferrara. St. Thomas throughout his corpus, Summa theologiae, Summa contra Gentiles, De potentia, De veritate, commentary on Dionysius, his different letters explicitly says that God's action is not an action that terminates in the patient. Rather, His action is numerically one, formally immanent and only virtually (according to power) is transient). From a Thomistic point of view, extrinsic model is a rejection of God's absolute transcendence. It leads to many problems, one of which is the problem of eternality of the world. If God's action is extrinsic, and it terminates in the patient, then either God acts from all eternity or temporally. If eternity, then the world itself has to be eternal, because an extrinsic transient action necessarily proceeds from the agent and terminates in the patient and the effect or term of a transient action has to be simultaneous. If he acts temporally, then we have a temporal agent. There are many other arguments that can be said from a Thomistic point of view as Fr. Lagrange points out in his works. A Thomist cannot accept the extrinsic model if the person really wants to be faithful to St. Thomas and Dominican theologians. To put it simply, extrinsic model for us Thomists treats God as a created agent.
I'd need to see the actual quotes because it sounds like you might be misunderstanding Aquinas. On the eternality issue, Aquinas explicitly affirms that God wills from eternity, and I dont see how it could be any other way. If God is eternal then if he wills something then it is willed from eternity, because He is in eternity! This does not entail that the universe is beyond time (which is what eternity means as applied to God, so if you dont mean that then youre using two meanings of the term "eternal") nor does it entail that the universe has an infinite past, so what's the issue?
@@TheBrunarr Exactly, And we all agree that God's willing is eternal but universe isn't eternal because his at of willing is immanent and does not issue outside him. Argument follows if God's willing was extrinsic (transient). however, St Thomas and his followers have ALWAYS rejected that God's action is extrinsic. I'm not misunderstanding St. Thomas. I'm simply following his words and words of his followers which are very consistent on this issue, God can have no extrinsic action according to Thomists.
I possibly need to rewatch this video, but i wasn't too sure what the difference is between Spencer's view of Thomism and EE?
@12:30
Atheists will, of course, reject this dilemma. It's rather like saying that we must accept 1+1=5 because, otherwise, 1+1 must= 3. Rather, they assert , there is some other answer yet unknown that is the correct answer not including God.
Comment for traction.
nice
How God express himself contingently. . . Will have to listen harder, this is difficult